← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump and Putin Meet in Alaska
00:50:33
MSNBC’s Ari Melber reports on the Trump–Putin summit and is joined by a panel of experts to break down what’s at stake.
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- [00:00]
Peter Alexander
Meet Olivia.
- [00:01]
Ari Melber
Hey, what's up? Olivia dreams big. I want to go back to school.
- [00:05]
Richard Engel
And get a pet and buy a.
- [00:06]
Katherine Stoner
House and save for retirement and travel the world.
- [00:09]
Ari Melber
That's quite the list.
- [00:11]
Laci Mosley
Thank you.
- [00:11]
Ari Melber
Numerica Credit Union is the perfect partner.
- [00:13]
Michael McFaul
To help turn Olivia's dreams into reality.
- [00:16]
Ari Melber
Really? Yep. We're all about helping our members create a life that feels like theirs. And we have the tools, expertise and guidance to make it happen.
- [00:24]
Katherine Stoner
I'm in. Let's get started.
- [00:27]
Ari Melber
Money where it matters. Federally insured by NCUA what's poppin listeners?
- [00:33]
Laci Mosley
I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man?
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Ari Melber
We've got them too.
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Laci Mosley
Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented. Cause representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o'.
- [01:03]
Michael McFaul
More.
- [01:03]
Laci Mosley
Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:08]
Ari Melber
We are covering President Trump and Vladimir Putin meeting in Anchorage, Alaska. The topic is the war in Ukraine. Three countries engaged on this issue, but only two clearly present today. That mismatch hangs over this meeting with Ukrainian leaders not invited. This started around 3:30pm Eastern in the United States time and east coast. The US representatives include Steve Wyckoff, Donald Trump's special envoy, and Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Those are the top diplomats of the administration. We saw Trump and Putin shaking hands flanked by F22 Raptors. Can see it right there. Hardy handshake, embrace. And here's how the moment unfolded.
- [01:51]
Andrea Mitchell
President Putin, will you agree to a ceasefire?
- [01:54]
Ari Melber
Mr. President wants an investigative light at your pump.
- [01:58]
Andrea Mitchell
Mr. Putin, did you on your estimate Ukraine?
- [02:04]
Laci Mosley
President Putin, will you stop killing civilians?
- [02:09]
Ari Melber
It's called a photo opportunity for a reason, because we expect to hear from these leaders later. But in that moment they are just showing the world that they are together and holding the meeting. We saw Putin and Trump go into the presidential limousine. The beast. Now that is a special treatment that you don't always see. Indeed, it's more common among traditional American allied states, say Britain or even France, but not usually Russia. They took a short ride and the two leaders posed for a spray picture. After the earlier organized photo, you saw reporters shouted questions. That's their job. We all want that. We've got our own reporters there in the field. But as is typical before an actual bilat presentation, neither side there chose to take any questions or be sort of baited into making early news. In a display of support for Ukraine, some Alaskans came out to show solidarity with that country, which of course was invaded by Russia to show signs and protests, some flags, messages of support in Kyiv, Russia is on the attack. Still, here was an air raid siren heard just earlier today at a time of war in Europe and great division. Otherwise, there is one aspect of all this that people agree on. This summit is significant. It matters even if nothing else comes out of it, for the very reason that already Vladimir Putin, through both war and whatever his outreach is to the Trump administration has managed to get an important bilat meeting with the US President without Ukraine presentation. Now, if they don't get a ceasefire out of this, it will benefit Putin still because you have sort of this symbolic alliance of what is by most accounts of course, the aggressor country tied to the U.S. the Times reports Russia and Ukraine agree a Trump summit is a big win for Putin. That diplomatic fact not really contested. Quote, merely meeting with Trump is a big win for Putin, bringing the Russian leader out of a diplomatic deep freeze and giving him a chance to control the American president face to face. Indeed, they report many European leaders and observers have been, quote, flabbergasted by Trump's decision to hold the summit on Ukraine, excluding Zelensky. And the continent's leaders have pressed this president not to strike a deal tonight behind Ukraine's back. Now, Trump has told European allies that he's not going to make territorial concessions, that he isn't ignorant, he would say, of what the trade offs are and that Putin would like to use both the situation on the ground and his perceived or potential warmth or link to the US President to get that which he otherwise might not get through the continuation of war. So Trump is saying, hey, he's not a sucker. He's not just going to give up a bunch of land. Whether he's already given up too much in terms of access is one of the debates on the table tonight. A peace deal that holds between these two nations is not going to be negotiated on the fly without Ukraine and its leader at the table. And we have full team coverage for you this hour. And going into the bilat, we expect and later coverage tonight. We begin live from Alaska with Peter Alexander, NBC News chief White House correspondent. Peter? Go ahead.
- [05:34]
Peter Alexander
Ari. We are here in the room where we expect to see both leaders ultimately punctuating today's. Events. This is where that joint news conference would take place if it is to occur, as the president and the Kremlin had initially said was the plan. You'll remember that Donald Trump, in the course of the last several days, is, said that he would know within the first few minutes, the first two minutes, whether Vladimir Putin is open is up for a deal. Well, we are now two and a half hours in to this first bilateral meeting between President Trump, Steve Witkoff, his special envoy, and the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, alongside Vladimir Putin and two of his top advisors right now. And it doesn't appear that it's wrapping up anytime soon with an extended, expanded meeting between the two parties still to come. Right now, Donald Trump had insisted if it wasn't going poorly, he would be willing to walk away, in effect, just fly right back home. So while we don't know what's been going on in that room, one of the real outstanding questions right now is what was said in private between the two men earlier. Perhaps the most iconic image of this day so far, that shot we saw of Vladimir Putin inside the presidential limousine, smiling and chuckling after the two descended the steps from their aircraft at about the same time. A royal, in effect, red carpet arrival celebration for Vladimir Putin. And you could tell by Putin's face he appears to be enjoying this moment as much as Donald Trump did, in effect, Vladimir Putin, who for the last three and a half years has effectively been in diplomatic isolation, facing sanctions and being indicted as a war criminal by the International Criminal Court, now here alongside the President of the United States, just the two of them. And, Ari, what struck me is while the focus certainly has been heavily on in anticipation of this meeting, whether there would be a ceasefire, Donald Trump saying that he was not gonna be happy if he left without a ceasefire today. As you listen to the Russian reporters in this area, including members of the Russian state media, they view this as something much larger than a conversation about the future of Ukraine. They view it as a broad conversation taking place between the US And Russia on a series of topics beyond the extended war.
- [07:46]
Ari Melber
Ari. Peter Alexander reporting from Anchorage, Alaska, at the summit. Thank you. We want to bring in Ambassador Michael McFaul, who was the United States Ambassador to Russia under President Obama, knows these issues well, and all the players, and former Democratic Congresswoman Jane Harmon, who was ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee and President Emerita of the Woodrow Wilson International center for Scholars, two people who have been inside the long road to this war, quite frankly, and Putin's growth and aggression on the European scale there. Peter Alexander, what do you think of the stakes tonight, what you will be watching for and the concern that I quoted from European leaders and certainly inside Ukraine that whatever this is occurs without Ukraine at the table?
- [08:35]
Michael McFaul
Well, Ari, if that's to me, I think Europeans are quite worried about this meeting. Ukrainians, I can tell you for sure, are quite worried about it. I've just been corresponding with some and everybody wants this horrific, barbaric war to end. Everybody wants the war to end. There's no doubt about that. The question is, does Trump have a strategy to help make progress towards that? So far, his strategy has been to treat Vladimir Putin as if he's one of our closest allies. I mean, I used to work at the White House for President Obama. I've organized meetings for heads of state. I don't recall anything so elaborate for any leader in the world, let alone an indicted criminal, a barbaric dictator, somebody who since Hitler and Stalin during World War II invaded and occupied and annexed countries in Europe. That's who we're talking about here. And yet we're treating him as he's some special ally and close friend of the United States. So if you're going to treat him that well, you're going to give him the red carpet. You're going to let him ride in the beast, the president's car. I hope you're getting something in return, Mr. President, because otherwise this seems like much ado about very little.
- [09:51]
Ari Melber
Hmm. Jane?
- [09:53]
Jane Harman
Yeah, If I could just add to that, it's a baffled performance by an a performer, our president. But leading to what? So far Putin is winning. The media in Russia is going crazy. This is a huge opportunity for him after invading a sovereign country despite all his promises since 1994. Let's keep that in mind. It's not just this president who's been played by Putin, it's five presidents who've been played by Putin. And Trump doesn't apparently notice. But it's also that the entire world is watching. Trump likes that and the entire world thinks the outcome should be different. The good news is that Trump did meet with European allies and he did meet with Zelensky by zoom before this meeting. And he said he will debrief Zelensky and meet with him following this meeting. That's good. And he also they've abandoned the one on one closed door meeting that they were supposed to have and they'll have their two, two, I guess, aides each in this room. One thing to notice, at least I'm noticing is that Pete Hegseth are at the Department of Defense.
- [11:07]
Ari Melber
Defense.
- [11:08]
Jane Harman
And yeah. And in the delegation, despite the fact that security is a. Is a huge topic here.
- [11:16]
Ari Melber
Right. He's a defense secretary. So war meetings, which involve historically US Funding and support at the Ukrainian Armaments would be relevant. It speaks to some of the fissures, perhaps, as you're alluding to in Trump's cabinet. It's important what Jane reminds us that you can have multiple bilats, you have multiple meetings. This one, as the ambassador mentioned, it seems different because it's already redounding to Putin's benefit on the world stage and cutting against what had been a Western and NATO effort to isolate him because of the actions he took. So it seems to cut against that. But I want to play, speaking of Zelensky, the now infamous exchange they had at the White House with President Trump, the talk of games and cards. Let's remember how that went. I think they're pulling that up. Yeah, you're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position. And he happens to be right about from the very beginning of the war.
- [12:19]
Michael McFaul
You're not in a good position.
- [12:21]
Ari Melber
You don't have the cards right now with us. You start having cards right now. You don't have your playing cards. Ambassador, what is your sense of those two men's relationship now, given their recent conversations and how Zelenskyy has to be integral to anything other than the status quo that might come out of tonight?
- [12:45]
Michael McFaul
Well, first, sorry, thanks for playing that. To remind everybody just how disrespectful President Trump was to the democratically elected leader of Ukraine whose country was invaded by the guy that he's greeting with a red carpet today. I think the contrast just striking and to me, embarrassing. I applaud President Trump for trying to end this war. And you have to talk to Putin to do it, but you don't have to check your values at the door to do that. Now, to your question, I do think their relationship has improved. They had a better meeting in Italy. They've had constant interactions. I think this format of European leaders, plus Zelenskyy on the phone or a video conference with President Trump is working. Some of those European leaders are people that have relationship with President Trump, including, by the way, the president of Finland, who has a particularly strong relationship with President Trump. So I think that's working. But you cannot have a negotiation about the terms of a peace treaty or even a ceasefire without the Ukrainians in the room. And the idea that you had to meet with Putin first I just think was wrong. And I hope, therefore, it does lead to another meeting, a trilateral meeting. That's what the president has said. But why wouldn't you have started with that in the first place? And why wouldn't you give President Zelensky this kind of greeting when he came to the United States? The contrast, I think, is just really striking and I think deeply unbecoming.
- [14:18]
Ari Melber
Ambassador McFaul and former Congressman Harman, thank you to both of you. Coming up, we are going to dig even deeper into what Zelenskyy and his allies are trying to figure out. Also later, NBC's Richard Engel will be reporting for us live from Ukraine to understand what's happening again in the affected war region. Andrea Mitchell also here. We'll be back in 90 seconds. We are back. You're watching MSNBC's special coverage of this summit in Alaska between President Trump and Vladimir Putin. And we're going to keep this shot up for a moment because while you can always go askance trying to over interpret tea leaves at these kind of diplomatic gatherings, you clearly see more activity in this room. You see traveling reporters basically looking like they are getting either ready or antsy. We saw more people filter in the room. We saw some folks getting ready for what we call hits, reported appearances on news programs like this. That's pretty standard. But you also see more folks from this shot taking their seats and a bit of buzz in the room. Whether that means that we are about to get more action in our earlier presentation is not something we can confirm. But that's, that's what we're seeing. Ambassador McFaul, who has been, of course, one of the people in the back room at exactly such events, rejoins US Ambassador I want to play a little bit of what we heard from Zelensky when he discussed his goals and his reference to the security guarantees that he would want take a listen.
- [16:01]
Andrea Mitchell
There should be ceasefire. There should be security guarantees. President Trump said that he supports this. I told the US President and all our European colleagues that Putin is bluffing. Putin doesn't want peace. He wants to occupy our country.
- [16:20]
Ari Melber
Ambassador McFaul, where does that fit with what you were explaining earlier, what his ground rules are? And if you have any thoughts on whether this room looks like a hot room that might have an earlier presentation, I welcome your insight on that logistical programming part of these highly choreographed events.
- [16:37]
Michael McFaul
Well, first on the room, it most certainly looks like something's about to happen. Some people thought this meeting was going to go for Seven hours. That clearly doesn't look to be the case because people are taking their seats. So maybe something's happening soon to what President Zelensky said. He used the word security guarantees on purpose because they fear that sometimes when we talk about land for peace, as is oftentimes a phrase used, we forget what will actually lead to permanent peace, long enduring peace. And for the Ukrainians, they need security guarantees for that peace. They don't just want to have a ceasefire and then the Russian army marches again in two or three years time. That's what happened already.
- [17:23]
David Rothkopf
Right.
- [17:23]
Michael McFaul
The war started in 2014. It then escalated in 2022. And until we get serious, we, the west, we the United States, President Trump talking about security guarantees, I don't see any conditions under which the Ukrainians and President Zelensky will agree to a ceasefire, let alone a ceasefire that means that parts of Ukraine will be occupied maybe for a long, long time.
- [17:50]
Ari Melber
Hmm. I want to bring in Andrea Mitchell, our chief foreign correspondent, a longtime veteran of these exact foreign policy stories. Andrea, your thoughts on the point that the ambassador just made and also what you're seeing in the room. Ambassador McFaul, like you, has been around many of these, and he says it looks like they may have had a shorter meeting. People are getting ready for something.
- [18:12]
Andrea Mitchell
Well, it could be that they only had the three on three and that they're not going into the expanded lunch, that they want to have a briefing. I mean, it's hard to tell whether this is actually the preparation for the news conference. We don't know that officially yet. But it could be that there isn't the need or the desire to have that expanded meeting. I think it's just too early to speculate on how this is going to go. But what is very striking was the warmth, the chumminess, if you will, the friendliness of the greeting. Not just the red carpet, but getting into the beast, even though we're told by our own correspondents that there was a Russian official vehicle there. So it wasn't predetermined that Vladimir Putin had to get into the car with the president alone, as has been pointed out by Mike McFaul, by Keir Simmons and others, and by some of my reporting and some of the things that Vladimir Putin has done online before the World cup, before Sochi Olympics. He can speak a little bit of English, doesn't understand it very well. He doesn't speak it very well, but he probably understands more than he speaks. But there were clearly pleasantries that must have been in English on that red carpet when they first shook hands. And all of that has to be chilling to those watching from Ukraine, because that's not something that Vladimir Volodymyr Zelensky had at the White House last February when he was literally escorted out without being given lunch and not signing the rare earth minerals agreement that was on the table for him to sign in the East Room after the meeting in the Oval Office. So there's just, I mean, they patched it up after that with a lot of coaching from Keith Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, and others of the European allies, getting Zelenskyy more in tune with how he has to also flatter Vladimir Putin while still being loyal and, you know, honest to his Ukrainian principles, which is that Russia invaded Ukraine. And what is so striking to me is that for all of the criticism and disappointment and frustration that President Trump has expressed over the last couple of weeks, only with Vladimir Putin for refusing to agree to a ceasefire, for continuing to hammer Ukraine with missiles and drones, and I think that is a sincere sentiment of wanting to stop the killing, the blood shed on both sides. The President, our president has not acknowledged that Russia is the invader here and that Ukraine is the victim.
- [20:49]
Ari Melber
Yeah, right. And that's part of the divergence here which has so many European allies concerned. Andrea stays with us. Ambassador McFall, I'm going to bring you in. We're going to take a look at the room in full because we have reporting now on the Russian side, the Kremlin saying the discussions are ending here, that Putin will be. Let's. Yeah, there we go. Looking at this in full. Excuse me. You can see what, what is now a room that looks extremely organized and ready for an imminent presentation of some kind. And, and again, we had the room earlier and folks saw a lot more bedlam and normal kind of scrum of reporters. I could say that as, as I am one. And now everyone's seated and pretty ready, except for Peter Alexander, who's doing a hit on our sister channel. Ambassador McFaul Kremlin saying they've done finished discussions that Putin will be at this press conference presentation. Walk us through that.
- [21:46]
Michael McFaul
Well, it sounds like maybe, I mean, we're just speculating they might have canceled the expanded bilateral meeting. Sometimes that happens. By the way, I want to underscore that we shouldn't read too much into that. When I worked for President Obama, sometimes the small group meeting went longer than expected. And that was all always where the most substantive work was done. And from my point of view, I'm glad that it would be canceled because in that meeting, the Russians brought all these people to talk about trade and investment. If you look at the delegation, we don't need to be talking about trade and investment with Russia. We need to be talking about ending the war in Ukraine. But it also could signal that the meeting didn't go so well and it's time to wrap up. So I bet you we're going to figure which one of those two scenarios we're in very soon.
- [22:33]
Ari Melber
What else is on your mind, Andrea, as we step away from the, you know, possible interpretation or speculating, although it's relevant to everyone who's waiting to hear from the officials. But. But what else is important for the United States and those concerned about Ukraine's security with what we might hear tonight?
- [22:51]
Andrea Mitchell
Well, what's really important, I think, is whether or not the president went ahead with what he said on Air Force One today. He was going to do was discuss the issue of land swaps, of territorial swaps, because he is not an expert on that. No offense to the president, but this is not his background. Vladimir Putin views Ukraine as his territory, sovereign territory. That's one of the reasons he's invaded. He thinks it's part of imperial Russia. And he knows every village, every nook and cranny of Ukraine, and he knows exactly where the front lines are, where his troops have advanced, where his missiles are hitting civilian targets, and what the vulnerabilities are of the Ukrainian front. So that is one issue. Did they discuss that? And is Marco Rubio and Steve Witkoff, mostly Marco Rubio at his side flanking him? Is he able to push back if there's a trap? In two and a half hours of talks, which is what already took place, there had to be a lot of potential traps from the former KGB leader Vladimir Putin, who knows this territory so well and has his own purposes here, which is to get more of Ukraine back, certainly to get to key provinces back to have a land bridge to create more of the territory that he believes is his sovereign. Did they also discuss security guarantees? Now, if that expanded meeting does not take place, the defense secretary will not have taken part because Hegseth did fly out separately, not on Air Force One, but he was supposed to be at the lunch. Not that Pete Hegseth, with all due respect to the defense Secretary, is an expert at all on Ukraine or on the battlefield, but we don't know whether that came up, whether security guarantees non NATO membership, but some sort of allied security guarantees. And what next for Ukraine? If they did discuss territorial swaps and if Zelensky is not happy and can't really accept it, and even Europe can't. What will Donald Trump do next? Is he now in Putin's camp vis a vis these negotiations? Does he have so much invested in this, having worked out that he then goes so far as to cut off, you know, intelligence or other support for Ukraine?
- [25:23]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Our guests stay with me. I'm bringing in Jen Psaki, who, of course, is our colleague, but also has White House experience. And, Jen, I actually want to start by playing some of what was a dramatic address by Zelensky to Congress. Again, a reminder that while we are covering what is a newsworthy meeting between two countries, it's all about the war in Ukraine, which is the other country. And no greater shift, perhaps, in all of US Foreign policy has occurred in the transfer from Biden to Trump. Then the very different approach to Zelensky. Let's take a listen to that. Ukraine didn't fall. Ukraine is alive and kicking. And next year will be a turning point. I know it. The point when Ukrainian courage and American resolve must guarantee the future of our common freedom. Your money is not charity. It's an investment in the global security and democracy. Jen.
- [26:32]
Laci Mosley
It's just a reminder. Watching that, Ari, and I think we all watch that closely. Remember that night there were Democrats and Republicans standing up and applauding Zelensky. I thought. I remember him getting many standing ovations at the time. And now you have a moment where the president of the United States is literally rolling out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin, the leader who is responsible for invading Ukraine illegally, taking territory and hosting him on U.S. soil. And it is quite a swing over the course of a couple of years, because for some time there, in the early months of the war in Ukraine, there was strong bipartisan unity standing up against Russia. And we really crossed a rubicron and a point that is very problematic for Ukraine because they don't have the support, the military assistance, the backing in a bipartisan way from the United States that they had in the early months and.
- [27:23]
Katherine Stoner
Years of the war.
- [27:26]
Ari Melber
And you heard in that address Zelensky trying to give the best argument for what was the US Support. This is not charity, but Donald Trump's version of the Republican Party, in contrast to, say, McCain or others who were more interventionist, basically says, I don't care whether you call it an investment, roi, charity, or whatever else, we don't want to be involved. There are criticisms of that. It could be selective. But do you think that there is a. A different center of gravity in the Congress. Now because of that shift, it strikes me that it's not the three or four vote partisan gap. Right. It's that there's fewer Republicans willing to openly defend Ukraine than when Trump first entered the scene.
- [28:14]
Laci Mosley
That's true. And part of it is just a clear signal that this is the party of Trump and that people who even during the Trump era or during the Biden era were standing up with Biden or were standing in a bipartisan way in support of Ukraine or people, members who were quite critical, say, of the Obama administration many several years ago back in 2014 for not doing more to militarily arm and support Ukraine, are now standing by while the president is seeming, at least optically, to be standing on the side of Russia. And that is a great indication of a political shift in the country. I would say, though, Ari, and not that you're suggesting this necessarily, it's not just about charity or not charity. I mean, the significance of this is, of course, that all of these Eastern European countries, countries throughout Europe, fear that if Vladimir Putin sees this as something he can do to other countries that he will not stop here. So it is more about values and how we see global order as a country and whether or not one country, Russia, should be able to illegally intervene and seize territory for a from another. And that is, that is sort of a, a global view and one that Trump doesn't share with past Democratic and Republican presidents.
- [29:32]
Ari Melber
Sure. I mean, that, that's the crux of it. Ambassador McFaul, we're talking about the decline of the new world order. As far as Donald Trump is concerned, it's a far more selective engagement of who might benefit from a US alliance, but the NATO alliance or the idea that the entire post World War II system of international harmony and united front against this type of aggression is in doubt because, because Russia's a nuclear power. And if they get rewarded with enough land or benefits out of this, then as, as I think both of you and Jen have alluded to, A, they're rewarded. B, they could regroup in however long and do it again to this or another country.
- [30:22]
Michael McFaul
I agree 100% with what Jen just said. First, the tea leaves just to because we're doing the tea leaves of the meeting. Colonel Dmitriev just walked in. He's a member of the delegation. He was be at the lunch. He's not at the lunch. He's sitting in the front row right now. So that suggests to me that this meeting, the press conference is going to take place. It also suggests that the Russians, that Putin's going to be there, that Dmitriev is sitting in the front row.
- [30:46]
Ari Melber
But I want to go.
- [30:47]
Michael McFaul
The big point that Jen make, I think, is just so fundamental to what we're talking about here. It used to be just axiomatic that the United States of America was the leader of the free world. We were the leader of the global order. And the fight between autocrats and Democrats during the Cold War, and even after the Cold War, we all. The world order was anchored by the most powerful democratic country in the world. President Trump is challenging that in a fight between democracy and dictatorship that is happening, a war that is happening right now in the heart of Europe. He's kind of agnostic about which side we're on. And you just very symbolically showed that, Ari, by showing that Oval Office meeting where we're embarrassing the Democratic leader and then rolling out, literally, a red carpet for the dictator. And I think the consequences of that are not just about Ukraine. I think the consequences are big for security in Europe, for security in Asia. You know who's watching this very closely? Because I was just there two months ago, the people of Taiwan, they are worried that if we don't think about autocrats versus Democrats, they might be next. And so this, I think, is a much bigger event, if you will, than just talking about where the lines of a ceasefire might be in Ukraine. It could be the unraveling of that World War II, that world order that was set up after World War II.
- [32:17]
Ari Melber
Wow. And that's why, again, even though there are those frustrated or concerned with how Putin is already getting so much out of the perceived statecraft of this large event, no matter what comes out of it, that it feels like a reward that you don't give away meetings when you're the President of the United States. It also is a reminder of the stakes of how this war continues or ends and what the lessons are for other autocrats in the region. I want to play something else we put together here. We're watching what we can see in the room. Looks like the imminent press press conference everyone's waiting for. But this is how President Trump has both sounded and at times had tension with his own remarks in the lead up. Take a look. We have a meeting with President Putin tomorrow. I think it's going to be a good meeting.
- [33:04]
Michael McFaul
There is a 25% chance that this.
- [33:06]
Ari Melber
Meeting will not be a successful meeting. All I want to do is set the table for the next meeting, which should happen shortly.
- [33:12]
Peter Alexander
Did you tell Zelensky to be ready? Did you tell him to be ready to come should you start making legitimate progress.
- [33:18]
Ari Melber
I don't want to talk about a second. They will, Maybe they will. President Putin, what's the difference in a face? The face in person? No different. Look. He's a smart guy.
- [33:30]
Andrea Mitchell
We get along.
- [33:31]
David Rothkopf
Will Russia face any consequences if Vladimir.
- [33:35]
Peter Alexander
Putin does not agree to stop the war after your meeting on Friday?
- [33:39]
Ari Melber
Yes, they will. There will be very severe consequences. That's some of what we've heard just recently. I want to bring in David Rothkop, a foreign policy expert, host of Deep State Radio, and a veteran of the Clinton administration. David, much has been said here today. There is much we don't yet know, although we've gotten our clues about what the Kremlin says is now the end of that meeting and Putin will attend this presentation. But your thoughts about what we're about to see?
- [34:11]
David Rothkopf
Well, I think it's consistent with what we've seen so far. At least that's my guess, right? We've seen Trump give heroes welcome to Putin. We've seen Trump bring along his economic officials, which is kind of body language saying, hey, I think there can be more to this than just talking about Ukraine. We can move beyond it. We can move towards normalizing. And again, I don't want to speculate because we're going to find out in a minute or two whether we're right. But looking at this, I would say, oh, they're going to hold a press conference earlier so that it hits prime time. If things are going badly, they do it later. Let's do a press conference now, then let's have our lunch. I think Trump, like lots of leaders, has an inclination to want to declare victory. Whether that victory is there's going to be another meeting or we made a breakthrough or it's positive, we're trending in a positive direction. I'm not 100% sure, but it sure does look like from the minute he arrived here, Trump's its objective was to declare victory and to move closer again to Putin.
- [35:23]
Ari Melber
David, stay with me. I told viewers earlier in the hour that we would also go to Ukraine with all of the important questions about how that country and its leadership looks at what's happening transpiring so far away over in Alaska. And now we have Richard Engel, NBC News chief foreign Correspondent, host of MSNBC's On Assignment with Richard Engel, who has been reporting on all of this. Richard, what can you tell us about how this is viewed in the actual theater of war in Ukraine, and what other reporting or analysis would you like to share with us tonight as we watch the summit?
- [35:59]
Richard Engel
Well, I'll start off by saying that things could change dramatically in the next few minutes, depending on what kind of announcement we hear from President Trump, from Vladimir Putin. But generally, for the last several days, we've been hearing great skepticism from Ukrainians, skepticism that this meeting is happening, that it's happening at such a high level and that they are not there. This, at the end of the day, is all about Ukraine. Russia is still occupying about 20% of this country. And that's what it's all about. It's about how to come to a ceasefire and how much, if any, or all of that 20% of Ukraine does Russia get to keep? What is the price of a ceasefire? Does Russia pull back some of its forces? Does it return land that it took by force to Ukraine? Russia has said previously it would never do that. Vladimir Putin has said that land that it captured in Ukraine is now permanently part of Russia annexed to the motherland, and that it will never be returned. Is he now changing that position or are the battle lines going to remain fixed? So Ukrainians are watching to see what their future borders are going to be, and they're watching this announcement come in Alaska, potentially quite soon from Vladimir Putin and President Trump, and they're not there now. We might not get that kind of announcement, we might not get that kind of clarity. We may only hear that there's going to be future meetings or that there's been some sort of ceasefire. But at the end of the day, this conflict all boils down to territory. That's what it was about from the beginning. That's what it remains about. And what Ukrainians really want to know if they will welcome a ceasefire. No doubt if it means that fewer people are dying, it means that fewer Ukrainians have to go to the front lines and risk losing life and limb. But they really want to know how this ends and what happens to these border towns, what happens to the areas under Russian occupation? Will they ever go back to Ukraine, or are they being gifted effectively, from Ukraine's perspective, to the aggressor, to Russia, Etc?
- [38:11]
Ari Melber
Does this summit's existence and the last 200 plus days of Trump administration leave Ukrainians feeling like they have tangibly significantly less support than under the prior administration?
- [38:27]
Richard Engel
You know, that's a very good question and generally, yes, but, but the answer is more, more complicated. Generally. Ukrainians liked the Biden administration, they liked President Biden, but. But they didn't believe that the Biden administration gave Ukraine enough help to get it over the line. They felt always that the Biden administration helped Ukraine just enough, but that it never gave them the amount of weapons or support that Ukraine really would need to turn the tide of the war, so that it kept them in the fight, but never equipped them enough to win the fight. So that is support, but it's the kind of support that leads to injuries, leads to deaths, leads to resentment. So people here have, have generally positive feelings about President Biden, but also this deep resentment that he never really helped this country enough to win, that he was always too afraid of. Vladimir Putin overestimated Vladimir Putin. On President Trump, they have confused emotions. Sometimes he is very pro Ukraine, other times he's humiliating the Ukrainian president. Sometimes he's sending weapons, sometime cutting off intelligence. They don't really trust him. I was speaking to a woman earlier today who said that she was very nervous about what was happening in Alaska because she said that, look who's deciding Ukraine's future, Ukraine's enemy, and someone who has not been consistently pro Ukraine, someone who they don't trust. So this has been a rough road for Ukraine under both administrations, one under President Biden, that, that they were receiving help, but as I said, not enough to really change the tide of the war. So they kept sending their sons and daughters into battle and not moving the front lines very often. And President Trump, who blows hot and cold.
- [40:25]
Ari Melber
Very interesting, especially when we hear your reporting of how that's interpreted on the ground. With a lot of countries around the world having an impact by either acting or by their inaction on, on the actual safety or life of the people of this country. Ukraine, my final question to you, I guess, is the most difficult or attenuated, giving everything we've learned, given what Ukraine has been through and given Putin's approach, what do people in Ukraine, from your reporting expect? If there is a ceasefire or a supposed end to this, do they believe that, that, that okay, is breathing room, or do they think it could have finality, given that Putin seems emboldened and could come back around? As other experts were discussed tonight, is there a real end possible or is it just better than. Than the war?
- [41:19]
Richard Engel
An excellent question, and again, it requires a complex answer. Ukrainians don't believe that giving Vladimir Putin some land that he's currently occupying, and he's currently occupying about 20% of this country, so that Ukrainians say if some peace deal, ceasefire agreement is reached and Russia gets to keep 10% of that, 20% of that, which would be all or all of the land Ukrainians don't believe that Vladimir Putin will be satisfied, that he would be rewarded in some fashion that, that Russia invaded this country and in exchange for stopping its attacks on Ukrainian cities, Russia is allowed to keep a portion of Ukraine. Ukrainians feel that fundamentally, that dynamic rewards Vladimir Putin and emboldens him, and we will embolden him to take more territory. But that's their belief in principle, in practical terms, Ukrainians have been fighting, they've been fighting hard for the last three and a half years. They are now facing nightly drone attacks, attacks by glide bombs, attack by weapon systems that continue to get more lethal and more sophisticated, and they have not been able to push out Russian troops from those last 20%. So they don't want to reward Vladimir Putin. But despite the, what I think many have recognized as the heroic efforts from the Ukrainian people and from the Ukrainian military, they have not been able to push out the Russians from this last 20% of the country. So what, what choice do they have but to take some sort of ceasefire and hope for the best? What Ukrainian government officials and military officials tell me what they hope the way to have a lasting ceasefire is to take a ceasefire, potentially cede some territory, and then get as many security guarantees as humanly possible to make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Vladimir Putin to invade again. So that means potentially international monitors, many more weapons systems fencing along the border, an international system to monitor the ceasefire, and a real commitment from the United States and Europe to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. I think that would leave this war. It would be an unsatisfying end for Ukrainians because they would still have to say goodbye to potentially up to 20% of their own country. But if there were security guarantees, at least, least they could feel more secure in the 80% of the country still left to them.
- [44:02]
Ari Melber
Richard Engel reporting there overnight in Ukraine. Thank you very much for the, for the reporting and your answers as we apply that to what we're about to hear. Our thanks to Richard Engel. We'll take a look at the room here. Steve Witkoff, the special envoy, who of course was a key part of these meetings and traveled with the President, unlike this Defense Secretary, as we were hearing about earlier, has just entered the room. That is again, another incremental sign of us getting closer to the presentation of the summit that the whole world in some respect is waiting on. I want to bring in political science Professor Katherine Stoner from Stanford University, who has studied these issues. Much has been said, so I'll hand you the floor about what you want to focus on right now?
- [44:48]
Katherine Stoner
Sure. I think picking up some of what Richard was saying, and he's on the ground there in Kharkiv, which of course is being shelled pretty regularly. I would say that while we've seen in recent polls out of Ukraine that about 70% of Ukrainians are saying that they are tired of the war, that doesn't mean they necessarily want peace on any terms. And they certainly don't want peace on Putin's terms, which he's very clearly articulated a number of times and has indicated that he has no reason and no desire to back off of those, which is essentially four regions of Russia, of Ukraine, pardon me, that he had written into the Russian constitution in September of 2022. And I think, as has been mentioned previously, the problem with that is that they actually don't occupy all four of those regions and Crimea, they occupy parts of one of them, one of them, almost completely parts of the other three, and of course, all of Crimea. So the problem on the Ukrainian side is that they see those regions as part of Ukraine, so they won't give up a lot of land for peace. And even if in a few moments this is declared a done deal, course it isn't, because the Ukrainians still have a democracy. And we saw that just last week, last week and a half, when President Zelensky tried to do away with two corruption bodies or actually put them more firmly under control of one of his appointees, people came out on the streets against him, even during wartime, which is kind of a dangerous thing to do. So it's a pretty active civil society. And what the polls are showing, though, is even people are tired of war, 54% would. Only 54% would accept a ceasefire along the lines that currently exist, but they would not recognize any further land given to Russia, as Putin has requested. And one of the reasons for that is that there are a couple of hundred thousand people there in those cities still. And then second, from a defensive perspective, there is something called the sort of fortress line that the Ukrainians have been building since 2014 to try to prevent any further incursion into Ukraine from Russia. So even if there were a ceasefire there, the Ukrainians are going to be very, very nervous about Putin going further. This is, after all, all what he did in 2014 after taking Crimea. So I think that's really important is making sure that fortress built, which is what the Russians have been fighting so hard for the last two years and really only making incremental progress. If suddenly we just give that to them in some negotiation with Putin and Trump. I don't think that's something that's going to go through the Ukrainian parliament, and it's not something Ukrainians themselves would at all. So it's a very big problem, as Richard indicated in his report, that there's really no representation from the aggrieved party here, from Ukraine, and anything they come up with here could be absolutely irrelevant because no Ukrainian president, whether it's Zelensky or almost anyone else who's elected in Ukraine, Ukraine legitimately could possibly accept the terms that Putin wants. So we'll see. But I don't think it's right. This could be the beginning of something, or it just really could be the beginning of a lot of empty talk.
- [49:06]
Ari Melber
Professor, stay with me. I want to bring in David Rothkoff, who's been standing by with us as well. David, you look at this, and the other part we haven't discussed at length is the Donald Trump of it all. On the home front. We've discussed whether Putin has had his way with him. Their long, bending, winding relationship is well known in this country. But we are also dealing with a president early in his term who has repeatedly sought to turn away from what measurably is a sagging approval rate and a series of stories that have bedeviled him not only in the overall approval, but with his base and on the right. And that's a very different summer than what was expected or even I would argue then we had all lived through the first term than much of what his first term looked like. So while I'm not casting aspersions here, the internal politics matter. We're watching a few more important people fill into the room. And I'm curious what that and the reporting that Donald Trump wants to be in the center of the action, wants a peace prize and all the rest. How that fits in?
- [50:21]
David Rothkopf
Well, clearly he wants to change the subject, and he's throwing the kitchen sink at it. He's moving troops into Washington. He's agreed to this meeting even though there is no concrete reason to agree to the meeting. And he is trying to find whatever he can to get people away from saying the word Epstein or talk about his other scandals or the fact that people don't like his economic policies. And I'm sure that what we're about to see here is the president get on the stage and try to spin this in the best way possible, whether it is something substantive or whether in fact it is. As we were just discussing the appearance of progress, I think that's much more likely what we'll get. And I would just say that from the point of view of the Ukrainians and the Europeans that I've spoken to recently, they're as much worried about what Trump says on the stage as they are what they don't hear. What happened in the room privately, what Trump said, oh, I can help nudge Ukraine in that direction. And so we're at the very beginning of a story. And from Trump's point of view, he just hopes this story is going to go on and on for a while, be a big story, be on the front page and push Epstein and the other problems he's got further, further into the back pages of COVID The Fantasy.
- [51:43]
Peter Alexander
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Peter Alexander
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