Nick Ackerman (4:53)

These documents to come out because he.

Walter Isaacson (4:56)

Himself will suffer some fallout. Nothing I voted for happened.

Ari Melber (5:02)

Well, what about you?

Nick Ackerman (5:04)

Are you happy with anything?

Ari Melber (5:07)

I mean, it sounds like a political wake. And because their audiences, especially Tucker, still include plenty of people who are conservative or Republican adjacent or maga. And labels can be simplistic, but you'll notice there's a tone there. They don't necessarily go directly at Trump and Say, boy, he messed this all up. He had a good hand a year ago and it seems like he blew it, spent the political capital quickly and is still messed up on Epstein. They don't necessarily word it all that way, but that's not positive messaging. What you just heard, obviously, for Trump's Republican Party going into a midterms where Tucker's audience either is going to pull the lever for Republicans or hand the Congress over to Trump's opponents, the Democrats. Take another example, Michael Savage, conservative radio host. He was OG MAGA. He endorsed Trump early in 16 in the first term. You could find him in the Oval Office. Here's Savage now.

Bill Kristol (6:05)

I think the American worker right now is hurting badly. I think the economy is in the no matter what the Trump administration might want to be selling or telling us, the prices are too high, inflation is.

Ari Melber (6:17)

Too high, jobs are not here for.

Walter Isaacson (6:19)

The people who worked for them and.

Ari Melber (6:21)

They'Re being shafted primarily in the tech industry, straight up. And he mentions tech. While Trump, who campaigned on a so called populism and lowering prices, has done very little on that agenda but is cozying up to the tech elites as they all get richer and do crypto, et cetera. Tech's doing well. Here's the top line. When you look at a stock market graph, what you see there first is the blue line. Huge growth for the top 500 companies when you include tech. But if you take out what they call those seven tech companies, Zuckerberg's, Meta Bezos, Amazon, if you exclude those, you get this a lot lower. Now you might say, gosh, Ari, you don't usually make us do this much math. What Michael Savage just said, what people are feeling out in the real economy is that red line, which is pretty flat. That's the 400 largest companies in the U.S. absent Trump's tech friends. It's a different picture, it's a different reality. It's economic risk, it's concern about the economy, let alone potentially a souring economy, which we know changes people's patience for a president, any president or any stumbles. Now, when you think I found Marjorie to be, think about that. I found Marjorie to be very effective, but she's almost like a canary in a coal mine. And this is something inside Congress. They better wake up because they're going to get a lot of people retiring.

Walter Isaacson (7:59)

And they got to focus. I think keeping members out of Congress.

Ari Melber (8:03)

You only get two years to be.

Walter Isaacson (8:05)

In the majority and if the Democrats.

Ari Melber (8:07)

Get you not to work every day for two months, that's that's losing two months of the majority. That's a warning there from another House speaker who has faced his own Republican problems. Kevin McCarthy wanted you to see that. But you could ask Jimmy Carter. You can ask Joe Biden at the end of his term when people are upset about the economy. The chart I just showed you, the real economy, flat and a lot of risk out there. We don't know what's going to happen. They have less patience for these games. Then take this quote, Congress has been, quote, sidelined by the current GOP speaker with obedience from the Trump White House and betraying the American people. That's from the right. Another Republican says the White House team has treated members like garbage. The arrogance of this Trump White House team is quote, off putting to members who are run roughshod and threatened. More explosive early resignations are coming. This source tells Punchbowl's newsletter. It's a tinderbox. Morale never lower. Johnson will be stripped of his gavel. They will lose the majority before this term is out. Now that is what they call a blind quote or warning. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. But there are at least some people in the Congress who feel that way. And remember, they can only lose two votes among the Republicans. So if that's a real quote, right, Punchbowl says that's a real one. You add another one or two and before you know it, you could have a Matt Gaetz style rebellion which remember, is what displaced Mr. McCarthy who I just showed you, trying to remind people how tenuous their power is. Trump entering lame duck territory at this point in his second term, Obama was still net positive. Six Trump 19 points underwater. The right leaning economist says once Trump's honeymoon is over, presidents tend to lose popularity quickly. But no president has fallen so low as quickly as Trump. The narrative has changed quickly driven by all this evidence. I have two special guests when we return in 90 seconds.

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Ari Melber (11:17)

VGW Group Voidware prohibited by law CTNCs 21/plus sponsored by Chumba Casino. As Trump reels with his first basically full blown Republican crisis of this term, we want to bring in Alicia Menendez, co host of the Weeknight, of course, our colleague and longtime Republican White House veteran Bill Kristol, now a Trump critic, editor at large, the Bulwark. Welcome to both of you, Alicia. The vibes, the narrative, if you will, seems to match the evidence. There's some real problems.

Alicia Menendez (11:48)

Yeah, he's got some real problems. Listen, he campaigned sort of on this, this central idea that Americans were so discontent with the economy and he was going to be the one who was going to come into power and he was going to reckon with it. He told voters incomes will skyrocket, inflation will vanish completely, jobs will come roaring back. None of that has happened.

Ari Melber (12:07)

Right.

Alicia Menendez (12:07)

So there's both the substance of it, the fact that he has been focused on his tariffs, which have injected a huge amount of uncertainty into the economy. They have forced a number of consumer good costs to rise. He's rolled back ACA subsidies, so everything's more expensive, whether it your healthcare or your coffee. And then there's the rhetoric. I mean, he's so far afield, Ari, that just last week he was saying that he had never heard about the term affordability and that he was learning about the term affordability. Trump on the stump understood, or at least pretended to understand, that cost of living was supposed to be his bread and butter. So there's that. But then there's something between the substance and the rhetoric, which is that he's so focused on prosecuting his most outspoken critics and not on the economy, that it's clear to voters that he does not have his eye on the prize. And I think that's why you saw what you saw in New Jersey and Virginia. The voters sort of were like, wait a Second, you promised me one thing. You have not delivered it, and you not. Don't even seem focused on the thing that you promised.

Ari Melber (13:10)

Now, if I can push back a little. He did say there's a new word. Groceries.

Alicia Menendez (13:16)

Groceries.

Ari Melber (13:16)

Groceries.

Alicia Menendez (13:17)

Groceries.

Ari Melber (13:18)

It's a new word.

Alicia Menendez (13:18)

It's a new word. I've never, I, I had personally never heard of it, okay. But now that I know about it, I do understand that most Americans are going to the grocery store and they're saying, I can't afford the bee I used to be able to afford. I can't afford the bananas I was able to afford. You told me you were going to bring prices down, and you have actually only succeeded and in bringing prices up.

Ari Melber (13:37)

And if it was just a Biden problem, why didn't it go away with Biden, Right?

Alicia Menendez (13:40)

And why were we supposed to have. Why are we being told to have patience with you, but not patience. Providence. I really love your frame here about how this has been terrible week, month for Trump. I think the conceit of your frame, if I may, is it has been a worse nine or ten months for Americans, right? Like whether whether you're that person who's going to the grocery store and can't afford things, whether you are an American who lives in a city that now has ICE invasions and your neighbors being snatched up off the street, whether you're a person who relied on SNAP and had weeks where you weren't sure if you were going to be able to feed your family because this administration could release funds and chosen not to. It has been. Whatever is happening to him in this last month pales in comparison to what he has put Americans through.

Ari Melber (14:21)

Bill, as you know, Alicia, clearly spitting hot fire. And that's what that is, Clear, strong, and bringing in. Of course, the stakes, which is the public aren't just doing some political math here about what a month he's had. They're living it. So I think all that's fair. I want to show the chart again for you, bill. You remember W. I. Thomas, the sociologist. If people believe things to be real, they are real in their consequences. The blue chart is this idea that we chat. Everyone's heard of this, you know, S&P 500. Whether you're in or out of the markets, you've heard it, the top companies, but most of the companies, 4 to 90 of them, are that flat red line. And so while people sometimes look up and they look at their retirement account or wherever they look and they hear about things up, there's a lot more economic pain and Risk in the real economy. How does that fit in to the diminishing patience people have with the Trump show?

Bill Kristol (15:17)

Yeah, and big companies have announced layoffs. Unemployment's ticked up a bit. Inflation hasn't gone down, actually ticking back up a little. So I think people are very nervous. I think you've said it before. There are a lot of risks ahead. If one just analytically looks at it, what are we more likely to have over the next three months? Upside surprises in the markets and in the economy or downside surprises? And I think, honestly, most economists would say probably more risk on the downside. So you put that factor that in with what you and Alicia have been talking about. It's really striking. I would put it. You put it very well in the last week. But let's just go back a second. Uh, September 30th, the shutdown. @ the time, remember Democrats, people thought Democrats were taking a great risk. Presidents usually win shutdown fights against Congress. Democrats are in the minority. They're. What's their. They, they didn't, you know, they don't have the greatest spokespeople in the world. They clearly won it politically. Right. I mean, we're now, what, September 30th, it's almost two months later. And Trump is much weaker than he was then. October 18, no kings. I think that's something we've forgotten too quickly. Remember, Trump and his people just tried to demonize it for the week before. It's a Hate America rally. It's kind of like terrorists and stuff like that. 7 million people show up. Totally peaceful patriotic demonstrations. November 4th, the election we've mentioned. 10 million plus people vote. Pretty resounding defeat for the Republicans. And then the Epstein files an actual legislative defeat. So I think what's important about all those things is they were, you know, Trump could make mistakes and people can. The media, we can all say it's terrible. Some voters notice, some don't. But these were all kind of confrontations, showdowns, you know, the shutdown, no kings. The elections, and then Epstein. And on each of those, Trump suddenly started to lo. And I think that's very important. Momentum matters so much in politics. Trump had that weird kind of anything he does. He's got this mystical connection with the American public. There's nothing Democrats could ever do to discredit him. The right wing media ecosystem is so powerful. And suddenly, 1, 2, 3, 4, a bunch of defeats. I think it really matters.

Ari Melber (17:13)

Hmm. Alicia, this is polling. Majorities of Latinos disapprove of Trump and his policies on the Economy and immigration, as with all groups, it's not a monolith. And there were Americans in the Latino community who were warming to Trump in last cycle. Four in five say Trump's policies now harm Hispanics or Latinos larger than the first term share. And there were people who believed him when he said, I'm gonna focus on the economy. And now they're looking up and saying, as you've said in this community as well, I guess that wasn't true.

Alicia Menendez (17:45)

Well, there was a conversation post his win about whether or not what we were watching was a realignment, whether there voters, like Latino voters, who had disproportionately voted for Democrats, who are now going to align themselves with Democrats or with Republicans or whether it was just a de alignment from Democrats. I think there is a window of opportunity for Democrats here to begin to answer that question. And part of that, yes, is about the rejection of Trump and saying, you were promised things that are not coming to fruition. He said that his focus, even on a question of immigration was going to be at the US Mexico border, not at the interior. And, and here is the vision we can offer you in exchange. Here is what America can look like. But I think part of what we learned from New Jersey and Virginia is that takes sustained organizing. Right. That's not just people showing up two weeks before an election and suddenly making a pitch. That is right now, organizers on the ground beginning to develop those relationships. And it's not sexy, but it is the work. And it's happening. You talked about Latinos. It's happening more generally with non white voters. It's happening with younger voters. And what that means in America that is increasingly younger and not white, is that what happens in this moment will also determine the political future for generations to come.

Ari Melber (19:03)

Bill, your view on why there are more cracks in the, in the public discourse, Even putting aside the congressional vote, some of the MAGA folks saying, wait a minute, they don't necessarily want to carry water for all of this.

Bill Kristol (19:17)

Yeah, I think a couple of things. I think Epstein was just awfully, awfully important. I mean, you need, you know, there can be a lot of little cracks. It's sort of like, you know, and they, they don't quite become big cracks. And when one of them becomes a big crack, other people think, oh, you know what, I'm allowed to bake with him. And people who broke with him. And it turns out Trump ended up signing the bill, and we'll see what happens. Incidentally, one of the things looming ahead in December for him is the release of the Epstein files or a cover up of the Epstein files, neither of which I think will be very good for him. So. But I think that was very important. And then I do think that what you mentioned earlier, Ari, the, the one thing Trump was good at, Remember Hillary Clinton 2016? We were with her and Trump said at the convention, I'm with you. And I remember thinking at that time, trump's probably not gonna win. But I don't know, that's a pretty powerful counter message, you know, and I'm for you. Trump carried that out. I mean, he didn't carry it out.

Ari Melber (20:07)

But he said it's the candidate or the people.

Bill Kristol (20:10)

Yeah, he said it for the last 10 years, basically. And I do think now people don't think he's watching out for the American public. Some of it's also the self centered stuff, you know, that white have the east wing. It's just all about him, the ballro, you know, it's not, he's, he and his family are doing great, but what about you? What about the people?

Ari Melber (20:27)

Yeah, we're approaching the holidays. Bill, did you want to wish Fat Joe a happy Thanksgiving or anything like that tonight?

Bill Kristol (20:36)

Happy Thanksgiving, Fat Joe. Yeah, well, we're, we're in touch, you know, I mean, we don't, it's nice to do it, but, you know, and we're, we're constant, the texting, you know, all that stuff, it's just, it's non stop, frankly.

Ari Melber (20:46)

Yeah. Does he ask you what the hot restaurants are, where to go out at restaurants?

Bill Kristol (20:50)

Musical music recommendations, obviously a lot of hip hop stuff. You know, that's just me. It's kind of. Right.

Ari Melber (20:55)

Yeah. Alicia and I will fact check that after the holidays in the holiday spirit. Great to see you both. On matters of import, a little fun at the end. I want to remind everyone. And you want more, Alicia. Who doesn't? Next weeknight, in the next hour. We'll see you soon. I know you got to run and stay busy. Coming up, the incompetence of the Trump DOJ is ricocheting and fears about MAGA undercutting American democracy. I'm really excited to bring on the acclaimed historian and biographer Walter Isaacson. He is a news icon. He's next. Donald Trump is testing the guardrails of our constitutional democracy in ways we haven't seen since Nixon or McCarthyism. Americans are polarized, a political divide that seems to get deeper. Our founders were concerned about factions, which we now call parties. They gathered to sign the first founding document, the Declaration of Independence. And tried to create a baseline that we could all draw from over the years. It's an opening sentence that just about every American knows. It transcends any daily politics and of course, echoes from our schoolrooms to our culture.

Nick Ackerman (22:18)

You want a revolution?

Alicia Menendez (22:19)

I want a revelation.

Tyler Redick (22:20)

So listen to my declaration.

Alicia Menendez (22:22)

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.

Ari Melber (22:26)

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We fought for these ideals. We shouldn't settle for less. These are wise words, enterprising men.

Bill Kristol (22:34)

Quote em.

Ari Melber (22:34)

Don't act surprised, you guys, cause I wrote em Jefferson with the mic drop. We thought that was a nice way to bring in someone we have a lot of great journalistic admiration for. Walter Isaacson is a well known biographer, historian, author, the new book about this very topic. When we talk about goats, the greatest of all time, Mr. Isaacson makes the case that sentence you just heard is the greatest ever written. The second line in the Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Walter, welcome.

Walter Isaacson (23:18)

Hey, thank you, Ari. It's good to be with you.

Ari Melber (23:21)

What does the sentence and its principles teach us today?

Walter Isaacson (23:26)

They're our mission statement. Clearly they weren't exactly true at the time, but they've been used as a forcing mechanism throughout our history to become more and more true that all men are created equal, whether it's four score and seven years after they wrote it. Lincoln invoking that sentence when he's burying more than 1,000 people in Gettysburg who pushed that sentence forward, or the suffragettes in the 1920s using that sentence when they make their case, or Dr. King doing it. And as you said too, it transcends politics. And I know we're all got our hair on fire about politics, but we have our 250th birthday coming up next year. And I wrote this book so that for some moments at least, we might transcend politics and realize what unites us.

Ari Melber (24:17)

Sounds nice, Walter.

Walter Isaacson (24:20)

Yeah, well, we'll see if we can do it. A lot of us are in the history trade, writing trade, and of course, Ken Burns, John Meacham, so many others. I hope we're going to have a celebration next year where we reflect on the common values we share.

Ari Melber (24:35)

That sounds like a nice dinner party or, or scotch session, the three of you.

Walter Isaacson (24:40)

You know, you talked about the bicentennial. We came through, you know, Watergate, we came through Vietnam. You're talking about how we've been divided in the past. Well, I'm old enough to remember Watergate, Vietnam, the riots, the assassination of Kennedy and King. It was a very fraught period. And then we used the bicentennial, ringing the Liberty Bell, shooting the fireworks, having bicentennial moments. I hope we can do it again.

Ari Melber (25:09)

Well, I want to read more from the passage in the book where Muhammad Ali once said, me we. They said that might be the shortest poem in the English language. You write about how that phrase we the people is as profound as it is simple. Our governance based not only on the divine right of kings or the power imposed by emperors and conquerors, it's based on a compact, a social contract that we the people have entered into. And so I wonder if tonight you could talk to us about how in that sense optimistic or radical the founders were. You know, when we look at them. I'll just give me one more second, then I'll let you go. When we look at them with the paintings and they seem so locked in amber in history, but in their time, they were demanding a whole new basis of rule, as you say, not by might or only a religious invocation. Why does that matter now?

Walter Isaacson (26:02)

This was a whole new concept on Earth, which is every other nation was ruled because the divine, divine right of kings allowed the king to rule, or the sword of the conqueror. The notion that they would take the Enlightenment concept of a social contract and say the power derives from the social contract that we do. And they do it 11 years after the Declaration when they start the Constitution with we the people. And you now have a nation that's based on individual rights, democracy and the rule that comes from the consent of the governed. And that changed the world.

Ari Melber (26:44)

You wrote a really great book about Elon Musk. You chose to write it in the middle of his very fascinating life. And when I was reading it, I was struck by how you capture this is before he jumped in with Trump, that he didn't believe in limits really not just as rhetoric. I believe you have an accounting of a meeting where they're telling him we can't do that with the driverless cars because of certain state laws and we need the car to work all over the place, not just in some states. And he says, I never want to hear about any laws unless they're the laws of physics. Can you speak on how that both motivated what is clearly some things that he was effective at building these companies and did that mentality limit him in government where limits and respect for other other branches is part of the very foundation you're writing about in your new book?

Walter Isaacson (27:40)

Absolutely, yes. I mean he was somebody who was not only a risk taker, but he worried that the United States had started as a nation of risk takers. I mean that's what they say when they sign the declaration that we have to hang together, we'll hang separately and we become a nation of regulators. People who are trying to put guardrails, we need guardrails, we need regulations. But we also need a few people who are going to push those. I think Elon Musk was putting particularly suited when it comes to rocket ships, cars, self driving cars, batteries, Optimus, the robot, neuralink, all these things he's built. But of course in government you can't do it quite that way. They're not only guardrails, but you don't own the government, you own those companies you built.

Ari Melber (28:32)

Did you end up liking him more having spent so much time immersed in his world?

Walter Isaacson (28:36)

I don't think liking is one of those adjectives you use. I mean, I tried to understand him. He's somebody who's not exactly an emotional connector. His brother said that Kimball said Kimball was the one who got the empathy gene, Elon didn't. So I had a lot of emotions watching Elon Musk, but mainly they were sometimes a little bit of shock at what he was doing, other times being very impressed by how he's getting starship into orbit.

Ari Melber (29:12)

The Einstein book of yours is also a classic. Now people might think I'm on the payroll. This is just, I chose him, so that's why he's here. You show the, the incredible leaps he makes through and I'm not sure I understood it all. But you theory, it's a different type of, of work than being in the lab. How did you set out to document that and explain it? And what do you think of his application today when we're being told all these newfangled tools and artificial intelligence can do xyz? This guy didn't have artificial intelligence. He had the OG intelligence.

Walter Isaacson (29:50)

One of the interesting things about Einstein, he was slow in learning to talk as a kid. He was considered the dopey one in the family, but it taught him to think visually. So as I tried to describe Einstein's theories, do it the way he did, which was visualizing things. For example, when he's a patent clerk in Switzerland, they're trying to synchronize clocks. He's visualizing what happens when you ride along a light wave or a light signal that's used to synchronize the clocks. And he comes up with the theory of relativity that time is relative depending on your state of motion. Now that is so beautiful. I tried to show the creativity that comes from that difference between him and Elon Musk is. Elon Musk knew that vision without execution is just hallucination. And he was good at executing, is good at executing on things, whether it be the assembly lines that he's made here for cars and rockets or the ability to get more satellites in orbit than everybody else combined.

Ari Melber (30:55)

By tenfold respect, you document the virulent antisemitism that Einstein faced and sort of what Jews in Europe and Germany had to do in sort of navigating or ultimately saying this is beyond something you can deal with, obviously. And other minority groups all over the world have to make those calculations. Do you think that's a well understood part of his legacy? And I was curious reading the book, whether it kind of teaches or reminds us the endless lesson of diversity, perhaps that discrimination hurts, of course, the discriminator, but it usually also hurts the society doing it. In this case, the Nazis were part of a brain drain. No?

Walter Isaacson (31:41)

Yes, absolutely. Einstein had, you know, was very uncomfortable growing up and as a child. And it made him feel like an outsider. As I say in the book, it informs his science. Certainly when the Nazis are, are expelling or people are fleeing, whether it's Einstein or Fermi or Szilard and others. If that hadn't happened, Germany may have won the war because all those people left Germany and like Niels Bohr and others, and created the bomb in United States and Britain. I think when you look at the magic of what they did in 1776 in Philadelphia, it was a town filled with a diverse groups of people. There were Moravians and Jews and Anglicans and Quakers and slaves and freed slaves. And they all came together. So they created in 1776 a new type of nation that was based on the tolerance or even respect for all religions. Franklin donated to the building fund of each and every church in Philadelphia. And at one point they were building a new hall. He said, even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to come here and preach Islam to us, we should give a pulpit and we should listen. And he was the largest individual contributor to the Congregation Mikveh Israel, the first synagogue built there on his deathbed. So they, instead of his minister, taking him to the grave, all 35 ministers, preachers, priests, links arms with the Rabbi of the Jews march with them to the grave. That's what they were fighting for back then. That's what we're still fighting for today.

Ari Melber (33:20)

Fantastic. I appreciate you giving us thoughts on all of that. You don't know this. We've never been to the beach together, Walter. But when I'm traveling, I'm with a lot of your books, your ideas on the beach. I'm sitting there reading these. They're good long reads and I'll plug them in.

Walter Isaacson (33:36)

I'm sorry they're so long. But this new one is only 60 pages.

Ari Melber (33:41)

This new one's very short. Different vibes. So I'll put it on the screen. Walter Ives, and thanks for being here again, the new one, the greatest sentence ever written out. Now when we come back, the Trump FBI's implosions. Nick Ackman, Trump has an enemies list, but whether he can get any of them in real trouble remains to be seen. Democrats objecting to the FBI, seemingly wanting to interview or investigate them after this video, which they say simply reasserted something that everybody knows, which is the Pentagon military shouldn't follow unlawful orders voters. Trump is losing, though, in the cases that have gone farther than that one we've been covering how both cases they tried to bring against James Comey and Letitia James were dismissed yesterday and the prosecutor he had tried to install to bring them, Lindsey Halligan, ousted, DQ'd. She is invalid and no longer at work. Pam Bondi wants to appeal that ruling and find a workaround.

Alicia Menendez (34:48)

We have made Lindsey halligan A special U.S. attorney so she is in court. She can fight in court just like she was and we believe we will be successful on appeal.

Ari Melber (35:02)

That's AG Bondi's claim. Here is what the current state of the law is. The judge wrote extensively about that ploy and said they rejected the attorney general's attempt to retroactively make her a special attorney. They viewed that as one more failed loophole. DOJ is still signing indictments with Halligan's name. The next step of whether she can do that right looks like violating the current order. This will continue to be litigated. Mississippi now's Lisa Rubin reports. After a court order, prosecutors were directed to go back to signing court filings in the name of Lindsey Halligan, U.S. attorney. I'm joined now by former Watergate prosecutor Nick Ackerman. Welcome.

Nick Ackerman (35:43)

Thank you. Great to be here.

Ari Melber (35:45)

You know your way around an enemy's list?

Nick Ackerman (35:47)

I sure do.

Ari Melber (35:48)

I want to show you the status of these cases because they are.03 on the ones that have gone anywhere. So if you look at Comey James and Mayor Baraka, that one went so Fast, People forget it. All three of those cases basically collapsed. Others, though, are still being pursued. What do you think of this early trouble they've had?

Nick Ackerman (36:10)

Oh, I think it just shows a total incompetence and ineptness where they're just flailing out trying to go after people who they perceive as their enemies. They're not. They're not bringing real cases. These are not real cases based on real evidence. That's the problem. And they think just by indicting people, they're creating retribution. But really, all of this is going to rebound back on Trump. The politics of this is not. Not good.

Ari Melber (36:39)

You know who agrees with you? Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal.

Nick Ackerman (36:42)

Exactly.

Ari Melber (36:43)

Their headline is, quote, the gang that couldn't indict straight. And they say that Trump is doing lawfare. That's the thing he used to accuse others of. But actually the Journal says Trump's revenge, law, affair, and Comey and James gets thrown out of court.

Nick Ackerman (36:57)

Oh, that's right. I mean, every one of these cases is going to get thrown out of court. What really concerns me, though, is with other people that they're trying to put into the grand jury, or they have FBI agents going out and interviewing people that they're trying to get some kind of a hook that they can claim a false statement or a perjury or make up another charge that isn't even there at this point.

Ari Melber (37:19)

Would you advise these senators to talk to the FBI in this case?

Nick Ackerman (37:22)

Not at all. I think it would be a big mistake because what they're really trying to do is set them up for some kind of a false statement charge. Even if it's not there, they'll try and make one. Because what these senators have said is absolutely the truth. As a military professional, you cannot follow illegal orders. End of story. So what the heck the FBI is going to interview them about is completely beyond me.

Ari Melber (37:49)

Yeah, this is in the legal weeds. But I know you, and I know you don't mind a little gardening.

Nick Ackerman (37:53)

Weeds.

Ari Melber (37:53)

Okay, Yeah, a little gardening. If you are an up and comer in this doj, and Trump's got about three years left, and you're looking at the Lindsey Halligan situation. Is that how you want your career to go? I mean, is it valuable for judges to hold the line here? And then other lawyers say, hey, they might have a very ideologically conservative, you know, federalist society preferences, fine. But if you start bringing lying cases, losers like this that shouldn't have been brought in the first place, or you want to dance with them doing a fake Appointment. You're not even going to stay on the job very long.

Nick Ackerman (38:26)

No, not only that, you're going to wind up in the Rudy Giuliani hall of Shame for disbarred Trump lawyers. I mean, that's where this is all heading. There already are complaints being filed with the Virginia bar, the Florida bar, against Lindsey Halligan.

Ari Melber (38:41)

Do you think she's vulnerable if she continues to try to assert this idea that she's in the office where a judge just said you're not?

Nick Ackerman (38:46)

Oh, I think she's vulnerable even if she doesn't continue. Absolutely. She brought phony, trumped up cases against, I hate to use the word trumped up, but it's trumped up cases against both on Comey and, and Letitia James. These cases should never have been brought in the first place.

Ari Melber (39:04)

Trump has ran through about three FBI directors already. It used to be a 10 year term, but it was a tradition. He knows how to break traditions. But now that instinct he has may hurt the MAGA crowd because Cash Patel. This is a new headline. Trump considering removing Patel over issues. Okay, that's, you know, name them. Patel's come under scrutiny for stewardship of the Bureau resources, including his girlfriend's security detail, how he uses a government jet. There's a set of questions about whether he was qualified for the job. The Senate did confirm him, despite those questions. Now we're past the old days and we're into is he doing the job competently? Do you share that concern? And if so, do you think that it's okay to break the tradition and then fire him?

Nick Ackerman (39:51)

Well, he's totally incompetent and they knew he was incompetent before they even fired. Former Attorney General Barr said that he wouldn't hire Patel for anything. I mean, he kept him out of the Department of Justice at the time. This guy has no background in law enforcement. He was never a real criminal federal prosecutor. He did some, I think, state D A work. But this guy is not, I mean, he's, he's a political activist and a bad one at that. I mean, his whole thing was going after Trump's enemies. And he's the one that's really, if you look at the back of his book, he's got a whole list of Trump's perceived enemies. And these are some of the same people that he's investigating. And he's basically taking his entire tenure to do that, which is outrageous. I mean, there's never been an FBI director quite like this. J. Edgar Hoover had some problems, but nothing quite as bad. As this. No.

Ari Melber (40:47)

Nick Ackerman. We know you from back to the Nixon days, the Mueller days. Always great to see you in here.

Nick Ackerman (40:53)

Great to be here.

Ari Melber (40:53)

Great to have you. When we come back, I'll tell you why on the Internet, they're joking. You gotta find someone to look at you the way Trump looks at mom. Donnie, We have been so busy covering so many big stories and some special guests that on this program we haven't played much of what was a striking meeting between the President and the Mayor elect of New York in the Oval Office. Maybe you heard about it. A lot of people noticed the warm tone. Donald Trump seemed at times bowled over by the person he campaigned against. Said a lot of unusually nice things about him considering he is a left of the Democrats that Trump opposes. And then that moment that we saw in the press conference got a lot of late night jokes.

Walter Isaacson (41:45)

I feel very confident that he can do a very good job. I think he's gonna be. I think he is gonna surprise some conservative people actually. What a turn of events.

Bill Kristol (41:55)

It was like he was giving a.

Ari Melber (41:56)

Wedding toast to his new son in law. Either Zoron charmed Trump into embracing democratic socialism and undercutting every scare tactic the.

Bill Kristol (42:04)

Right has weaponized against him for the.

Tyler Redick (42:06)

Past six months, or the Molly Trump.

Ari Melber (42:08)

Took right before the meeting kicked in. You know, I just love this guy because I love everyone.

Walter Isaacson (42:13)

I love all of you.

Tyler Redick (42:14)

The press.

Ari Melber (42:17)

That has become part of the theme the memes and jokes are running online about all of it. One striking thing here is that Mr. Mamdani has proven to be an effective politician on the campaigning part. What comes next is governing and everyone will have to judge that for themselves. But Donald Trump seemed positively elated to be around someone this young and popular. He admitted his mind. He even said there were more reporters there than for other meetings with foreign heads of state. The most powerful person in the world. Still bowled over by anyone who can get good press. We'll be right back.

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Ari Melber (44:19)

Only one Democrat has taken control of the House floor this year over the objections of Donald Trump and the Republican speaker. Only one Democrat has authored legislation that he forced Trump to pass after months of objections. I'm talking about Congressman Ro Khanna. You can see my interview with him if you go to Ms. Now, Ari. That's Ms. No, Ari. We just sat down with him. It's a new interview. He talks about how they won and his plans to make the Trump DOJ comply with the looming deadline. You can watch that whole interview and share it by going to our YouTube playlist at that address. That does it for us tonight. Wishing you Happy holidays.

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