← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump Deflects as Epstein Scandal Raises New Questions
00:40:44
MSNBC's Ari Melber reports on Trump now trying to deflect the Epstein emails, calling on his Justice Department to investigate Epstein's relationship with Bill Clinton and other figures and institutions. Jason Johnson, Emily Bazelon, and Margaret Carlson join. Plus, political podcast host David Pakman.
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- [00:02]
Ari Melber
Hey, welcome into Walgreens.
- [00:03]
David Pakman
Hi there.
- [00:04]
Ari Melber
Hey.
- [00:04]
Emily Bazelon
All right, hon, I'll grab the gift wrap cards and oh, those stuffed animals the girls want.
- [00:11]
Ari Melber
Great. And I'll grab the string lights and some. How about I grab some cough drops?
- [00:18]
MSNBC Announcer
This is not just a quick trip to Walgreens.
- [00:20]
Emily Bazelon
I'm fine, honey.
- [00:22]
Ari Melber
Well, just in case. You know what they say, tis the season.
- [00:26]
MSNBC Announcer
This is help staying healthy through the holidays.
- [00:29]
Ari Melber
Walgreens a KFC tale in the pursuit of flavor the holidays were tricky for the Colonel. He loved people, but he also loved peace and quiet. So he cooked up KFC's $4.99 chicken pot pie. Warm, flaky, with savory sauce and vegetables. It's a tender, chicken filled excuse to get some time to yourself and step away from decking the halls, whatever that means. The Colonel lived so we could chicken. KFC's chicken pot pie. The best $4.99 you'll spend this season. Prices, participation may vary while supplies last. Taxes, tips and fees extra. The top story is one Donald Trump can't escape as he caps the worst start to a month of his second term. From the Dem wins to the Epstein email explosion this week, he is having a tough November. These new Epstein emails have upended the White House and they're only getting worse because it takes time, even in our rapid information environment for journalists and politicos and any citizen who wants to look and go through these 20,000 emails. All of this started when Democrats used their power to push the envelope and release some of the emails. The ones they said showed why Trump is hiding as they demand a vote to release them all. Republicans got mad, remember in the week and said, oh well, we'll release more. And so what started with three emails turned to 20,000 tonight. I have more details on how it's all going because this is a vast tranche of documents, of emails that many people clearly, from the way they were typing to Epstein thought would stay secret forever. Epstein made the biggest news, perhaps from the grave, so to speak, with his now unearthed statement to Maxwell, a sex trafficker convicted and in prison right now, that of course Trump knew about the girls. Donald Trump has denied any wrongdoing and has very specifically tried to deny that he knew what Epstein was exactly up to. Although the Trump story on that has changed and that is getting new scrutiny right now. There is also how the Trump DOJ has dealt with Maxwell and her controversial interview with a former Trump defense lawyer who now is paid by your tax dollars to do the people's business at the Trump doj. But it looks like Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche may not have been doing the people's business. We'll get to that. But in this exchange from 2011, Epstein wrote to Maxwell, Trump was spending, quote, hours at his house with one of the victims. Maxwell said she's been thinking about that as they said that Trump was the dog that didn't bark. That matters for many reasons, but specifically whether Deputy Attorney General Blanche is worried about later professional sanctions or misconduct or even potentially being disbarred. If this is part of a larger cover up, it obviously contradicts what Maxwell apparently falsely claimed with no repercussions. Yet when she had her cozy interview with Deputy Attorney General Blanche just months.
- [03:22]
Jason Johnson
Ago.
- [03:24]
Margaret Carlson
I think they were friendly, like people are in social settings. I don't, I don't think they were close friends or. I certainly never witnessed the President in any of. I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.
- [03:42]
Ari Melber
Something she suddenly says she didn't recall when the email says she did. If the Trump DOJ were on the level, and this is now public, at a minimum, they would go deal with this with her at a maximum. Remember, even when you're in prison, if you mislead the federal government, if you provide false statements to a federal officer, that could be a new crime. And yet they're not obviously doing anything like that. They're giving her special treatment and a puppy in prison. And we'll get to that. Blanche says that for some reason, quote, law enforcement didn't have those emails when he did the interview. As I've reported to you, he said, when I interviewed Maxwell, quote, law enforcement didn't have the materials Epstein's estate, quote, hid for years and only provided to Congress. That statement is highly suspicious, and it is now getting debunked by the Epstein estate, which says we hadn't received any requests from DOJ in recent years, emphasis on recent years. I'll come back to that. But they say, and these are the ones who have been lately more transparent. Of course, working for the Epstein estate sounds controversial, but Epstein's dead. These are the people who manage the estate. These are lawyers who have their own obligations. They are the ones who provided these emails. So they might have more credibility than Mr. Blanche right now. And they say tonight it's inaccurate for Blanche and Trump DOJ to assert the estate has hidden anything. And let me tell you a bit more about that. You might say, okay, Ari, with everything going on, why are we diving into a debate between anonymous lawyers or random, obscure lawyers at The Epstein estate and the deputy attorney general. Well, the deputy attorney general is responding because he's under pressure. The interview, many legal experts have said looked suspicious at the time. Now it looks like outright cover up, potential misconduct. And so he says law enforcement didn't have the materials. He tries to go after the Epstein estate. Maybe he didn't realize they would come back at him because they're saying his whole defense that they hit anything is wrong is inaccurate. Another word for that would be a lie if they think he knows that it's inaccurate. But more to the point, they didn't use the underlying original nonpartisan career prosecutors who led the Maxwell case. That was suspicious. I pointed that out at the time. Those prosecutors probably know everything that they requested, including the first step you take in this kind of probe, which is to try to get emails and texts and you go to the telecommunications providers. You don't even need to get them from Epstein. We would know more about that if the Trump DOJ was on the level. And then remember, on top of that, they then fired the person who actually won Maxwell's conviction, Maureen Comey. So there's a lot more smoke here and a lot more questions and a real investigation can get to the bottom of it. Now you might say, are we going to get to the bottom of anything? Seems like a lot of secrecy and a lot of corruption these days. Well, you're right if you think that there are a lot of places where Congress doesn't do anything and a lot of places where Republicans won't stand up to Donald Trump. That is a well known pattern. And yet here we are ending this bruising week for Trump with an unusual headline. Republicans Revolting. Congress, which is controlled by Republicans, will actually hold this vote next week on releasing more of the Epstein files. Epstein accusers imploring lawmakers to vote yes. That's part of the public pressure. They write there's no hiding behind party affiliation when you vote. We will remember your decision at the ballot box. And there has certainly been a nonpartisan or transpartisan movement with growing heat to get to the bottom of this. Trump is trying to deflect. He made an announcement today that itself is illicit and suspicious. He now says he wants the DOJ to investigate whether there were other crimes or Epstein's relationship with Bill Clinton and other figures. And he names the bank JP Morgan, tech entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and others. Now just think about that. I know we live in cynical times, but if this government, from the President on down thinks there was sex trafficking with any of those people or JP Morgan, which of course was. Was very controversial in how it handled Epstein's banking. Just think about what Trump just admitted, that they haven't really pursued, that this is his doj. He was in charge in the first term. They could have looked at all of that. That's when the initial Epstein case came. He's been in charge now, as you know, for this year. And yet that announcement, if you take it at its word, admits they haven't done it and there may be crimes and now they want to do it, that implicates Donald Trump. If you take him at his word. If you don't take him at his word and you think this is a giant distraction, an effort to use the real crimes and victims and sex trafficking that did occur in a politicized way, to go after other people and distract from himself, well, that's even more disgusting and cynical. And if you know this program, I don't use those words often or lightly, but it is indeed disgusting. If you have an oath, uphold the Constitution and enforce the laws, and here you are abusing and misusing that responsibility to play political games and your pawns or chess pieces in that are the women and girls who actually were the victims of these crimes. We do need to maintain our capacity both for outrage when it's warranted, and a vigorous search for the truth, which is what the justice system is supposed to do. This is how it goes when Trump talks to reporters about this. Mr. President, can you respond to these Epstein emails that were released today?
- [09:11]
David Pakman
President Trump walked past reporters yesterday, as.
- [09:14]
Ari Melber
You see here, as they were asking.
- [09:16]
David Pakman
Him questions about the newly released Epstein emails.
- [09:19]
Ari Melber
Mr. President, any comment on these Epstein emails, sir? Now, not a lot of response from a normally voluble figure there. The conservative Wall Street Journal, owned by Rupert Murdoch, says, as is so often the case, Trump has been his own worst enemy here. He looks like he has something to hide, even if he doesn't. Now, let me tell you a word about that. Even if. Even if he doesn't have something to hide is charitable, but he does have something to hide. He's in the Epstein files. He's in Epstein's secret emails to a convicted sex trafficker, Maxwell to Steve Bannon. People are getting more details on those as everyone pours through what is 20,000 documents. Some of them are quite interesting. Some of them are random. Some of them. The House release involves public information, like pages from a book. So you go through all this in the reporting process, but he clearly has something to hide because he's been fighting even this disclosure which shows he's in the files and he's fighting the next possible disclosure, which suggests he's in the files again. As for Maxwell, she has the audacity or the sex trafficking chutzpah to use this period to prepare to ask Trump to let her out of prison. Something that would seem unthinkable unless you think again, he would rather take the hit for that, to maintain her as some sort of non credible source to defend him. Unlike other prisoners, Maxwell already reportedly gets unlimited supplies, special treatment, quote, customized meals personally delivered to her cell, a private exercise area accessible to this much maligned service puppy. She says it's safer and more comfortable. I feel like I've dropped through Alice in Wonderland looking glass. I'm much happier and safe is her statement on the matter. Trump said he would not rule out freeing her. Think about that. He's on the run, he's in the files. And now, having campaigned on both transparency of releasing the files and justice and saying this whole pedophilia ring was a bad thing, he is now still leaving the door open to, to freeing from prison the only individual ever incarcerated for Epstein's related crimes. Now, we've heard so many lectures about how nothing changes. And Trump has loyalty and he likes to tell people he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. Well, that may not be true either. There are some problems, legal and otherwise, that Trump's base has excused. But right now, I showed you the Wall Street Journal, I showed you the Republicans in the House who overrode Trump's strategy here of secrecy. And other members of the MAGA base are upset. Newsweek reports on the threat to the Trump presidency now looks unlike anything we've seen before. And over across the whole country, his approval is cratering. MAGA loyalists concerned.
- [12:10]
Jason Johnson
Across the Republican Party there are calls for more disclosure.
- [12:14]
Emily Bazelon
The government will not protect the predators.
- [12:17]
Ari Melber
There is just nobody in the electorate.
- [12:19]
David Pakman
Who is buying this.
- [12:20]
Ari Melber
Trump could one up him and say, well, Johnson wants to have the vote Wednesday. I want to release the Epstein files Tuesday, and he could literally be a hero.
- [12:28]
Emily Bazelon
I think it's a huge miscalculation.
- [12:31]
Ari Melber
He's alienated a lot of his base with this, with his statement that you're no longer my supporter and you never were. If this is what you're for, this is again just the beginning. Epstein is one of those stories with many layers. If you've watched this program, we one time did a whole long special report just going back to the original Florida case and then the timeline and then his history with Trump. And if we did that report for you tonight, we'd have to add 20,000 emails worth of more details. So it's complicated and it's long. And yet this week, Americans learned more about what Epstein was secretly doing, including his discussions about Trump. And with Trump aide Steve Bannon and a bunch of other people, we learned more this week than we've ever known before. And it's bad. And Trump's in freefall, and. And that's just a few days in. Imagine what's going to continue to happen when you learn even more damning information. Trump continues his spiral, his cynical announcements, which may not be playing very well, and then you actually might get a vote to release the files. Buckle up. The story is moving fast. And we have two special guests when I return in 90 seconds. We are covering the fallout from the release of these 20,000 Epstein emails. The Republican speaker admitting loss, admitting a defeat here, overrode by a majority of the House that almost never happens, and admitting he could not hold the secrecy dam any longer. There will be a vote to release the Epstein files next week. And as I've emphasized in our reporting, we're going through the material as we get it, but it takes time to go through this many emails. The details mounting are hurting Trump and the doj. There are many different avenues to this story. So after quite a week, we've set aside a good amount of time here with the New York Time Magazine's Emily Bazelon and Semaphore's Margaret Carlson. Emily, I mention all of the complexity because people have heard the name Epstein and this story a lot. People are upset with Donald Trump's response this week, and it's still just sinking in that there is new material and how much of it there is. What do you think is the import of the evidence here? It certainly has not helped Trump's mode of defense and denial.
- [14:52]
Emily Bazelon
Yeah, agree. Epstein clearly thought that he could do damage to Trump based on all of these criminal allegations. We don't know from the emails that have been released so far exactly what he thought was damaging, but you can tell that he kind of thought Trump knew the score, knew what was going on. And also, Epstein remains really fixated on Donald Trump up until these emails end. So you just get the sense of these two people really mattering to each other, of Epstein seeming like he is really tracking Trump's every move, trying to think about whether there's some way to leverage his relationship with Trump into a benefit for himself, even as obviously his own situation is getting darker and Darker, given the criminal conviction that he's facing.
- [15:44]
Ari Melber
Hmm. Margaret.
- [15:47]
Margaret Carlson
When best friends break up, it's always a dangerous period for both of them. And you know how this died down for a while. And Ari, I was on with Bill Crystal the day that Ghislaine got moved and we discussed, well, what does this mean? Well, it means he bought her off and she went to this cushy prison. She gets meals and she works out. That was something pretty major to give to her without getting something in return. And I think it was that conversation with Todd Blanche, who may someday pay for this, but she exonerated Trump in that deposition. So now we've moved forward, and now the Congress has begun to break a bit and clear to me that the House is going to vote for more revelations. And I don't know about the Senate. It seems to me it should be the other way around because House members are up every two years and the Senate every six. So it's not as if they're going to be faced. All of them are going to be facing voters, and you would get some defections. But I don't know if they're ever going to find their spine. But there's enough out there. And, you know, for Trump, he should have faced this a while back. He's at a pretty weak moment, as some of your stats showed, to be going through this. And if I can quote a former colleague of mine, he said about the whole matter that it's like a disease and I won't name it. Since this is a family show that goes dormant for a while, it always comes back. And that's what is happening here, and that's what's going to be happening to Trump for the rest of his term if he doesn't somehow squirm out of it.
- [17:31]
Ari Melber
Now, that makes sense. And the standard here is not just simply whether there is a smoking gun, major sex crime on the part of President Trump. There are many bad things short of that that could come out. The claim by Epstein and Maxwell in private that he knew about this already contradicts what Trump later said and her interview, as we've discussed, the other material that he apparently doesn't want to come out could refer to other things that, for a leader or a politician, are very bad. Even if, as we've been careful to say, he hasn't been charged with anything related to the Epstein pedophilia ring. I use that word because that's part of what happened. Then you have some people who, in the MAGA orbit seem to already be trying to either minimize or soften the ground. I want to play Margaret. What Megyn Kelly shared, and she has a pretty large MAGA audience these days. Take a listen. He was into the barely legal type.
- [18:34]
Margaret Carlson
Like he liked 15 year old girls.
- [18:38]
Emily Bazelon
And I, I realize this is disgusting. I'm definitely not trying to make an excuse for this.
- [18:41]
Ari Melber
I'm just giving you facts that he.
- [18:44]
Margaret Carlson
Wasn'T into like 8 year olds.
- [18:46]
Ari Melber
You can say that's a distinction without a difference. No, it's not.
- [18:50]
Margaret Carlson
I think there is a difference.
- [18:51]
Emily Bazelon
There's, there's a difference between a 15 year old and a 5 year old.
- [18:54]
Ari Melber
You know.
- [18:57]
Margaret Carlson
That'S the worst defense I ever heard. He wasn't into 8 year olds. Well, thank you for that. But, oh, 15 year olds, well, that's okay. And you know, remember when Matt Gaetz was trying to get off the hook, he said, well, I didn't know how, you know, that they were underage. And that's no excuse. You're, you, you don't get off because you don't know they're underage. You know, on Fox News, I try to listen every once in a while. They just, you know, they're right there. They come up with these things that don't make any sense. Like, I'm surprised with Megyn Kelly, she's smarter than that. But wow, this is going to be hard going forward when your defense is, well, they weren't into 8 year olds.
- [19:46]
Ari Melber
And it makes you wonder why that conversation is politically being floated. Emily. Megan says, and I have the transcript quote, I'm just giving you facts. No fact check. She, by her own depiction, is not giving us facts. She says that she was quoting or sourcing to an Epstein ally. So it's not even facts. Now, sometimes when we cover a murder trial, we cover a denial, but we don't call that giving you facts. We just say that the defendant has their defense and will report what their defense is. So Megyn Kelly, of course, as Margaret said, she said she's smarter than that. I don't have her IQ reports, but she's an attorney, she's a longtime journalist. Sourcing the Epstein universe, whatever that means, is different than the actual facts. And how do you view this? What sounds like a political softening of the, of the ground or an attempt to move the lines? Emily?
- [20:45]
Emily Bazelon
Yeah, I mean, let's just take a step back. Why do we draw the line at 18? Why do we worry about teenagers under that age being exploited? It's because teenagers don't have fully developed brains. They're perfectly smart, but they are not adults. And we worry about their impulsivity, their executive function function, and we just want to protect them more, more than we protect adults. And so to try to say that, you know, there's a meaningful distinction here that makes it somehow, it sounds like more okay if these girls are 15, that's just really at odds with the way we've come to think about adolescence and how important it is to make sure that people who aren't fully mature and are not adults are treated with, with some protection here. So it's dismaying to hear anyone kind of blur that line.
- [21:40]
Margaret Carlson
Ari, I think next week we're going to hear more excuses where they're going to bring up Biden's laptop and the Russian hoax and all kinds of things to try to divert attention. But it's past that. It's way past that. I don't think that's going to work. And saying like a six year old, well, Bill Clinton did it too is not going to work either.
- [22:04]
Ari Melber
Well, that goes. You mentioned Bill Clinton and I reported this, Emily. And I think it's one of the challenges of this period is what you even address versus dismiss. But the idea that Donald Trump is admitting today that the DOJ under his leadership has Epstein related crimes against children that they didn't bother to get into or finish the job on investigating. That's the claim that there are somehow some leftover crimes they didn't get to and they only want to deal with it now. I'll let you respond. I just want to show folks, here's AG Bondi posting online today the department will pursue this with urgency. I guess there's some Orwellian lack of self awareness with that word, as she says, with urgency. And then in her memo, remember the head of the DOJ said we conducted an exhaustive review of holdings related to Epstein. We did not uncover evidence that could predicate investigation against any uncharged third parties. So Emily, this is one where it may obviously be a lie and a distraction technique, but I think Congress would have to investigate all of this because you can't predicate an investigation on a lie, which is what AG Bondi now says she's willing to do. And the fact check for her lie would be her own memoir. Your, your breakdown of this.
- [23:28]
Emily Bazelon
Well, you're right. I mean, I think there's a feeling that they're being caught in their own web here. If you're the attorney general and you say we've already checked, there's nothing more or criminal that we don't already know about. And then you say a few months later, with urgency, we're investigating. Well, you were attorney general all along. You could have done something about this since you were confirmed in February. But also the idea that Trump is directing a selective investigation of certain people as opposed to, we want to get to the bottom of this, no matter who is involved. We're going to tell you in an even handed, impartial way what was really going on here. How are the American people supposed to trust that it is just already a setup to limit the investigation to the targets that Donald Trump doesn't personally like, which. Oh, by the way, of course he's not including himself, even though what has emerged in the last week does involve him.
- [24:29]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And that's Margaret, why there's nothing funny about any of this. But sometimes the, the biting satire makes a different point. The Onion, which many people know as a funny news parody site, released a whole video and I'm, I can't do it justice. But in dealing with the absurdity, they have these fake, you know, mock documentary interviews. And the subjects say, you know, if only there were some evidence, like videos of Trump and Epstein back in the day or documents showing that Trump was aware or if some women had come forward and credibly accused Donald Trump of this kind of conduct or if he'd ever admitted that this was how he viewed women and young women. And they go on and on. So it's satire. But I mention it on the news because they refer to a bunch of true stuff and they're sort of. The Onion's tone is banging its head against the wall of without prejudging anything, which is part of our jobs as journalists. The obvious, smoking guns in public about both Trump's unsavory ties to this individual, his administration joining the COVID up, including the examples I just showed, and him acting guilty in public saying, we don't want any more evidence. We're afraid of evidence and facts. It is all out here in the open now, isn't it, Margaret?
- [25:46]
Emily Bazelon
Pretty much.
- [25:47]
Margaret Carlson
And I mean, the Onion's job is too easy now because some of the things are so preposterous you can't have satire about them. And you know, the House is going to vote to have more out there. Pam Bondi says, well, now she feels this urgency and she's going to cave. Possibly. Her version, however, will be highly redacted. But as you said early, Ari, there are a lot of other versions of that material that can be had that aren't redacted by a justice Department that's completely under Trump's thumb. I mean, it's scary about the Justice Department. You know, when I see something in the paper quoting the Justice Department, I'm thinking of a real Justice Department and not one where everyone's been fired that's ever possibly shown any interest in, in nailing Trump for any of this. Everybody there is on the take. So you're going to have to go outside the usual channels to get this. Even when the vote is to have the Justice Department turn it over, don't you think? I assume Pam Bondi has had that black marker. You can't see through all my black markers. You can see the type underneath it. But not, not, not the Justice Departments.
- [27:01]
Ari Melber
You're talking about the high level redaction. No, I think, I think that's something that will continue to, to be under tremendous scrutiny. And you have to use the levers that exist. If there are efforts to hide or tamper the with the evidence under a court order or a congressional lawful subpoena, you have to deal with that. And remember, that's why I've reminded viewers Blanche sounded very suspicious in claiming that they didn't have this material. That's basic, as Emily and I know, basic investigative material. And because the other levers are sometimes working, that's how we know that they sound suspicious, because the estate handed over the material. And there'll be efforts to also check other things. If they hand over imperfect or fictitious material, you have to deal with that. So it's going to be a lot coming down the pike. It's obviously a busy time as we end this week, Margaret and Emily, my thanks to both of you. I'm going to tell folks, in terms of what's coming up, the Epstein. Thanks, guys. The Epstein scandal's been a drag on the right for Trump, but a lot of folks returned to Democrats in the ballots simply because of affordability and the prices. And now some in MAGA are saying this is an issue, too.
- [28:17]
Emily Bazelon
Gaslighting the people and trying to tell them that prices have come down is not helping. It's actually, it's actually infuriating people because people know what they're paying at the grocery store.
- [28:31]
MSNBC Announcer
As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [28:48]
Ari Melber
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [28:52]
MSNBC Announcer
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the program Progressive Caucus Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [29:49]
Ari Melber
Some Trump voters are asking, was Donald Trump lying to us all along? And they could ask that about releasing the Epstein files or affordability or bringing prices down or frankly, a lot of things. So while Epstein has haunted Trump all week, we are still just 10 days out from an election where voters, including some former Trump voters, went Democratic over prices in the economy. Today, Trump is actually responding with action, which is pretty interesting given how much rhetoric goes on in this administration. But he is tweaking tariffs on coffee, tea, oranges, these kind of everyday items, trying to at least bring food prices down, which is something people of course notice every week. The Times reports the White House has struggled to explain how they can claim tariffs aren't imposing additional costs on consumers, but that removing or lowering them will lower costs. Kind of a mouthful of a sentence that basically says the White House has been at times misleading on tariffs and this action shows that they know very well the tariffs have raised prices on some of those goods I mentioned. This is part of what hurt Republicans in the election. James Carville used to say it's the economy stupid. And right now the Post says you can upload up date that to its affordability. Stupid prices on things people need all the time. Eggs, beef, bread are up. Inflation is still a problem even if it's not at all time recent highs. And that is why Trump is in Biden land. According to many experts. Approval can crash for all kinds of reasons. Biden was wearing out his welcome in May 24th. Remember that was the fourth year of his term. Trump is having a Biden level hit the road Jack approval rating in the first year of his term as you see there underwater. People blame Trump and his response is often just misleading. But our prices are much lower. Their line is prices affordability. That's the new word, affordability.
- [31:49]
MSNBC Announcer
It's much less expensive.
- [31:50]
Ari Melber
Under Trump, food prices are way down. It's all coming down.
- [31:54]
David Pakman
Why are people saying they're anxious about the economy?
- [31:56]
Ari Melber
Why are they saying that? I don't know that they are saying.
- [31:59]
MSNBC Announcer
I think polls are fake.
- [32:03]
Ari Melber
Prices are up. You just saw him lie about that. On this program, we will try to always show you what's happening out there, but with a fact check in real time. Everything he said you could compare to the numbers. Price is up. He was lying then. People are concerned about it and he calls that fake. We will see in the long run whether Americans like being told that their views and concerns are just fake polls. But a big MAGA voice says he's gaslighting.
- [32:32]
Emily Bazelon
Gaslighting the people and trying to tell them that prices have, have come down is not helping. It's actually, it's, it's actually infuriating people because people know what they're paying at the grocery store.
- [32:45]
Ari Melber
Imagine that. Then you have the look and the feel of it, which is always what people notice, right? We are visual people, but now we have the Internet, phone, social media. So as Trump throws lavish parties and literally does a Great Gatsby party, the contrast is striking. He used to claim that because he was so rich, he could focus on the public business when he was in office. Some people may have believed that that has turned out to be false. He has been more focused on personal enrichment. His family taking in hundreds of millions of dollars in the crypto he regulates. He has self enriched more than any other president ever. While people pay high prices.
- [33:27]
Jason Johnson
There'S no.
- [33:27]
Ari Melber
Reason at 5 o' clock on a Friday afternoon, you should, you know, I.
- [33:31]
Jason Johnson
Shouldn'T be able to send out a swift wire transfer.
- [33:34]
Ari Melber
You can send $500 million worth of Bitcoin on a Sunday night at, you know, at 11pm while having a glass of wine with your wife for virtually zero fees. If you are someone who is thinking about how to send weekend transfers in the hundreds of millions of dollars while you have a glass of wine, then may that message appeals to you. If you're checking, that is less than 1% of the global population. And that doesn't help you win elections, which is why they're in trouble. I got Jason Johnson and David Pakman here next. Trump is facing a revolt on everything from the Epstein files to the high prices. And we're joined now by our friend, MSNBC analyst Jason Johnson. And as we scan the world for all the interesting people making their own citizen journalism and progressive commentary, I am excited to welcome the host of David Pakman show. A lot of people probably seen it on YouTube. They have over 3 million subscribers, billions of views. Also author of the Echo Machine. How Right Wing Extremism Created a post Truth America. You know, I like Jason. I see him all the time. David, we're especially excited because you're new here. Welcome.
- [34:48]
David Pakman
Thank you.
- [34:51]
Ari Melber
What do you see in a really widening revolt over affordability and the high prices with Trump's usual propaganda apparently not working as well?
- [35:00]
David Pakman
Well, there's two things here. And as, as is often the case, there's what is happening and what is it that was promised. One of the interesting things is that Trump's not a great liar in that he just goes, prices are down and prices aren't down. Bessant is better. Where he will say, inflation has come down. And of course, this is sort of like if you were going 80 on the highway and then you slow down to 60. It's like day one of calculus. You're still moving forward and prices are still going up. And so when you look at the data From June of 23 until now, inflation has basically bounced between 2.5 and 3. Most of that time Biden was president. It's lower than those Covid era peaks of inflation. But the promise that was made was prices will come down the day I become president elect, the day I'm sworn in, within 30 days, within 100 days. And so we should compare to what promise was made. And as you reported in Washington Post, New York Times have prices are up.
- [36:04]
Ari Melber
Yeah. You know, Jason, I'm reminded of the old Mark Twain quote. What are the price of eggs in the Epstein files have in common? Trump lied about them and everyone's angry. Not a real quote, but we're just testing if people are listening. There is anger over him lying. Longtime Trump critics go, are you kidding me? This is the guy we knew. But politics is always about addition. If you add a handful of House Republicans who say they're mad that he lied about Epstein and they're going to vote on the petition there, it matters. You add MTG messaging on affordability. It matters. What do you see here in something that for many people might seem like obviously, but is hurting Trump's approval.
- [36:51]
Jason Johnson
What's hurting his approval is that the thing that's wrong is a thing that we can all see and consume. Right. Marjorie Taylor Greene saying we still know the price of eggs is high is huge. And all right, I look at this from sort of where people spend their extra money.
- [37:05]
Ari Melber
Right.
- [37:05]
Jason Johnson
The restaurant industry has been in trouble since Donald Trump got in office. It has been hurt by his tariffs. You've seen McDonald's and Subway and Burger King and all these different places have to either slash prices or shut down stor stores because it's too expensive. But people don't want to spend their money right now. We're all familiar with the basic economic principle. You know, real G is moving silence like lasagna. One of the few places that has done well under these new tariffs is like Olive Garden because they started affordability two or three years ago. So that's what Marjorie Taylor Greene and Republicans are talking about. You can tell me whatever is happening in Wall street, but if I can't take my family out to dinner on a Friday without spending $200, I'm blaming the president.
- [37:47]
Ari Melber
Yeah, David, you see the subtle Lil Wayne reference from Jason Johnson. It's what he does. He does it on a Friday. He can do it in the middle of the week as well. David, you're in touch with your community directly, and I mentioned to viewers how large it is. I'm curious what you're hearing from people in the broadcasting you do because the traditional media is useful for some things, but it has at times missed other stories or felt out of touch with the whole country and the DC system. Don't even get me started with DC elites and how much they've missed. So anything that you glean from what you're doing that you might share with us? I'm curious.
- [38:25]
David Pakman
Yeah, I'm getting more personal emails from people in my audience, apologetics, saying, you know, David, I love supporting independent media. It's so tight, I have to cancel memberships to people I support like you. And that, that is more than I've seen it at any time. And there's another economic indicator that I think is also a concern other than just what's going on with my podcast, which is auto loan delinquencies, which can be a leading indicator of people starting to fall behind on their car payments, which not only is significant in and of itself, but if you lose your car, how do you get your kids to school? How do you get to work and keep making money? So. So auto loan delinquency can be a leading indicator of trouble to come.
- [39:11]
Ari Melber
Really striking. Jason, take a listen to this exchange with a Trump official from Sorkin.
- [39:19]
Jason Johnson
Donald Trump inherited this broken economy. He's been fixing it.
- [39:23]
Ari Melber
I'll tell you. The question is, what do you think the tax. The question is whether you think the tariffs are helping it.
- [39:29]
Jason Johnson
I, I think he has been winning on the tariffs, without a doubt.
- [39:32]
Ari Melber
Winning in terms of the price for Americans that they're paying for Goods.
- [39:35]
Jason Johnson
Donald Trump and his administration driven down costs on groceries. Gas is at a five year low.
- [39:41]
Ari Melber
And why are we making new deals with why are we making new deals on coffee and bananas and other things? Fair question. No, good answer. That's, I should say am a member of Republican leadership, but it's the same issue we saw. I don't think everyone's following every detail, but you can see that they are trimming the tariffs that they know raise prices on household goods. And they don't seem to have a good answer for that, Jason.
- [40:08]
Jason Johnson
No, they don't. And it also exposes the lie that the terrorists were supposed to help everybody anyway. And when he talked about particular items with different kinds of countries, we've seen what a 19% increase in the cost of coffee beans we've seen. To add to what David was talking about, this is the highest rate of default on student loans that we have seen in this country in five years. I see that as a college professor. So when Republicans can't buy the story and regurgitate it back to their supporters, Donald Trump is not only failing to rally his people around his economic policies, he's starting to lose people at the margins. Because a lot of these people who support Donald Trump, they're not hardcore Republicans, they're Trump supporters. So when he fails, they don't have an ideology to fall back on. Their dear leader has failed and they won't vote. And that's what we saw about a week and a half ago. That might be what we see next fall.
- [40:59]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Jason and David, thank you. We'll be right back. You can tell Trump is flustered because on the day the emails broke, he did something very rare for him. He refused to take questions from reporters.
- [41:11]
Jason Johnson
Yep.
- [41:11]
Ari Melber
Today Trump tried throwing the files into a dumpster behind the White House, but the whole East Wing was already in there. So the GOP didn't do Trump any favors by releasing these emails. They basically saw his grease fire and said, let us add some water. The Epstein story will not stop pop culture, the late night comics getting a hold of it. And the vote is coming soon to release the files next week. Republicans had lost the battle to avoid that vote. So it's a big deal. We're going to fit in a break when we come back. Rachel comes back Monday. I'm going to tell you what her show is going to look like. A little different as we roll out some news when we return.
- [41:53]
MSNBC Announcer
Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the the Party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [42:55]
Ari Melber
Just a little local news note. We this week are finishing our work at the majestic 30 Rockefeller Building where we have broadcasted for many decades. I myself have been going to work in that building for about 12 years, long before the Beat was on the air and our team marked both that ending and a new beginning. This week we have new digs, a new office in Midtown where we will be doing the same show on the same set of people, but with a new name. Our new name is Ms. Now. The same Ms. If you were playing Scrabble, you'd have to just change two letters at the end there. MSNBC becomes Ms. Now. This is because we are independent, moving out from the larger Comcast NBC Corporation and becoming our own independent company and our independent channel Ms. Now. That's the only branding change. Everything else, our people, our mission, our independence, all continue the same and you'll see that msnow starting this weekend and Monday when you watch our programs. That's us signing off. Have a great weekend.