Trump DOJ Indicts Don Lemon Over MN Reporting

Summary

Podcast Summary – The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump DOJ Indicts Don Lemon Over MN Reporting
Date: February 3, 2026
Host: Ari Melber (MS Now)

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Overview

This episode of The Beat with Ari Melber centers on the unprecedented indictment of veteran journalist Don Lemon and several others by the Trump administration’s Department of Justice (DOJ), accusing them of criminal conspiracy related to their coverage of protests and an ICE-related church storming after recent, high-profile killings by federal agents in Minnesota. The episode examines the legal, constitutional, and political implications, highlighting government overreach and threats to press freedom while providing live coverage of Lemon’s court appearance and exclusive commentary from leading legal and journalistic experts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking News: Don Lemon Indicted and Arrested

• Don Lemon, independent reporter and former CNN anchor, was taken into federal custody in Los Angeles following a controversial federal indictment.
• The charges: Conspiracy with protesters and another journalist (Georgia Fort) in connection with reporting on a church protest in Minnesota after the deaths of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy at the hands of federal agents.
  • Ari Melber: “[DOJ is] trying to criminalize their reporting on actions also in the same ongoing clash in Minnesota.” (02:09)
• The DOJ claims Lemon’s reporting—including asking questions on-site—constituted participation in a crime.
• Don Lemon’s actions were, by his own on-record statements, non-participatory and journalistic:
  • Don Lemon: “I’m not part of the group. I’m just here photographing. I’m a journalist.” (10:08)

2. Allegations of Political Targeting

• It's suggested that Lemon is being singled out as an “enemy of the state,” with Trump and top DOJ officials publicly expressing animus and calling for his prosecution.
  • Ari Melber: “Trump has now gone farther than Nixon ever did in public because Donald Trump has confessed to his own enemies list…” (04:10)
• The indictment follows public threats and rhetoric from President Trump and DOJ leaders (Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche), raising questions about “selective prosecution.”

3. Judicial and Internal DOJ Resistance

• Two independent judges previously rejected the case as lacking probable cause — a highly unusual occurrence for federal criminal matters.
• Multiple career prosecutors refused to participate, citing lack of evidence.
  • Ari Melber: “We almost never see federal criminal cases start with two rejections like this. I mean, almost never.” (07:14)

4. Defending the First Amendment

• All experts and participants stress that journalism—including coverage of illegal or controversial events—is protected by the First Amendment.
  • Don Lemon: “Once the protest started in the church, we did an act of journalism … Reporting is protected in the First Amendment.” (10:59)
  • Ari Melber: “If you’re filming, videoing, talking, reporting, asking questions, that is the core First Amendment protected activity.” (10:15)
• The Trump administration is accused of systematically eroding press freedoms, targeting individuals and attempting to “whittle away … confidence in journalism.” (23:59)

5. Expert Panel Analysis

A. Gene Robinson (Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist)

• Shocked at the singularity of the case:
  • “It is just stunning that you could bring a case against a man who is known to be a journalist, who was universally known to be a journalist … I guess this is meant for show. If it’s meant to intimidate, I’m pretty confident that it will not.” (17:43)

B. Kate Bolger (First Amendment attorney)

• Declares the action “outrageous” and “unprecedented,” unable to cite any U.S. precedent for prosecuting a journalist in this manner:
  • “This is so clear cut a First Amendment violation that I can’t find a precedent or think of a precedent. It is an outrage in every conceivable way… This is criminalizing conduct that has never been criminalized in modern American society.” (19:38, 23:59)
• Notes DOJ secrecy: Prosecutors filed certain things “under seal,” characterizing routine journalism as needing secrecy. (20:46)

C. David French (NYT writer, free speech expert)

• Emphasizes journalists’ right to cover illegal activities as long as they do not participate.
  • “Journalists have a right to cover illegal activities … This is a pretty obvious distinction that’s been known for a very long time.” (31:43)
• Warns of the chilling and desensitizing effect of repeated, politically motivated prosecutions:
  • “…we’re looking at Soviet levels of truth on a daily basis from our own Department of Justice.” (35:34, 36:39)

6. Don Lemon’s Statement Post-Release

• Live remarks upon release from court:
  • “I have spent my entire career covering the news. I will not stop now … There is no more important time than right now, this very moment, for a free and independent media that shines a light on the truth and holds those in power accountable … I will not be silenced. I look forward to my day in court.” (26:12–27:21)

7. Broader Pattern: Political Prosecutions & Public Backlash

• Melber highlights a pattern of thin cases and selective prosecutions against perceived Trump opponents, with many falling apart before trial (e.g., other journalists, mayors).
• Protests in Minneapolis and nationwide against killings by federal agents are described as protected acts of dissent—and as significant guardrails maintained by civil society despite governmental setbacks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ari Melber (on legal thinness):
  “We almost never see federal criminal cases start with two rejections like this. I mean, almost never.” (07:14)

• Don Lemon (insisting on his journalistic role):
  “I’m not part of the group. I’m just here photographing. I’m a journalist.” (10:08)
  “I have spent my entire career covering the news. I will not stop now. … I will not be silenced.” (26:12–27:21)

• Gene Robinson (press freedom):
  “If journalists don’t have the right to cover a protest, even an unruly protest, … then we don’t have the right to do journalism. There is not freedom of the press.” (17:43)

• Kate Bolger (condemning the charges):
  “This is so clear cut a First Amendment violation that I can’t find a precedent…” (19:38)
  “The idea that a prosecutor in the United States of America referred to a journalist as a threat to a community is so outrageous…” (19:38)

• David French (on normalizing government abuses):
  “…what I think we’re watching is a process in which I think they’re trying to, in essence, desensitize Americans because we can’t live in this constant state of alert and outrage.” (33:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:50: Breaking News – Don Lemon indicted; episode context
• 02:09–07:30: Allegations, DOJ and Presidential commentary, legal weaknesses in case
• 09:45: Don Lemon’s on-the-ground reporting (clip)
• 10:59: Don Lemon describes his intent as “act of journalism”
• 15:58: Lemon’s prior on-air condemnation of Trump’s conduct
• 16:18: Transition to expert panel
• 17:43: Gene Robinson on press freedom
• 19:38: Kate Bolger on unprecedented violation
• 22:59–23:23: DOJ reaction clips; administration’s tone toward journalists
• 25:59–27:21: Don Lemon’s live statement outside courthouse
• 31:43: David French on First Amendment, comparison to right-wing influencers covering illegal acts
• 33:11–36:39: French on “desensitization,” crumbling public confidence, “Soviet levels of truth”
• 39:12–46:09: Epstein files release—summary only (less central to main topic)

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Additional Segments

Epstein Files Release

• DOJ reluctantly releases 3 million files tied to Epstein, implicating high-profile Trump allies and raising questions on investigation failures by both parties’ DOJs.
  • Tara Palmieri: “President Trump’s inner circle is just so deeply entangled with Jeffrey Epstein, more so than they were ever willing to admit.” (41:44)
• Discussion on the lack of accountability for Epstein’s network and failures to investigate/charge other involved individuals.

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Conclusion

Ari Melber and guests present a compelling, multi-perspective dissection of the dangers posed by the Trump DOJ’s prosecution of Don Lemon for journalistic reporting at a protest—an act widely regarded by experts as a grave violation of First Amendment protections and a clear example of political targeting. The episode underscores the critical nature of press freedom, the resilience of the legal system’s traditional safeguards, and the potential for erosion if current patterns continue unchecked. Lemon, backed by a chorus of legal and journalistic voices, vows to fight and continue his reporting—making this episode a vital chronicle of a tense and transformational moment for American democracy and the free press.

Transcript

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Welcome to THE beat. We begin with this breaking news. Veteran CNN journalist, now an independent reporter, Don Lemon is inside a federal courtroom in the custody of of Trump administration agents right now. We have learned that the hearing ended, but he has not yet come outside. So we are following this along with you. As a reminder, where we begin tonight. The First Amendment protects journalists doing reporting and it protects people speaking out or protesting. Thousands are doing that right now in frigid temperatures, marching in Minneapolis and other cities just as reporters are continuing to do their jobs as Don Lemon was doing his against this administration, which we can report today, has indicted two journalists. It is, if you read the actual case, trying to criminalize their reporting on actions also in the same ongoing clash in Minnesota. These are related stories that we're covering. They both involve whether the Trump administration is following or breaking the law in these aggressive, now very unpopular crackdowns that have seen two Americans slain, dead. And whether this administration is following or breaking the Constitution and how it's pursuing journalists covering this same story. Longtime reporter Don Lemon is indicted in this case, which among other things, and I'm going to show you this tonight in detail. You can make up your own mind, but I'm going to show you exactly what the government's claiming because it literally claims that the questions that he posed were in furtherance of a crime when he covered an ICE protest that stormed a church. This was in the tense period after the death of Renee Goode, killed by Donald Trump's federal agents. And a week before, what people are still marching about right now tonight, the death of Alex Preddy, killed by a DHS agent. Today, the Trump Bondi DOJ charges Lemon and another reporter named Georgia Fort, a Minnesota journalist, and several of the people who did storm that church. What's different about this is they're all charged together as one type of conspiracy. And I'll tell you up top, as with other thin cases against perceived foes, Trump has now gone farther than Nixon ever did in public because Donald Trump has confessed to his own enemies list, admitted the animus, what could be a legal selective prosecution, and how he wants to go after people, including Mr. Lemon. Now, legally, that might make this case harder to win in the long run because Donald Trump was hyping calls to imprison Don Lemon online and saying in public remarks that Lemon's reporting specifically that day when he walked into the church, that it was, quote, terrible. Now, another DOJ official also posted a message directed at Lemon. This is highly incendiary and unusual. Harmeet Dhillon, an assistant attorney general that's sort of a chief prosecutor, oversees other prosecutors, said, you're on notice. And the DOJ's number two, Todd Blanche, who is, by the way, embattled for overseeing the illegal response to the Epstein probe, there he is, the number two former criminal defense attorney for Trump. He's part of the DOJ breaking the law, violating that Epstein deadline. And we have more on that tonight. He also was caught over the past weekend, on Sunday, lying about the conduct of one of the recent Minnesota victims. He also joined the campaign to go after Mr. Lemon. Now, the case filed today is weak, and we know that it's weak because two independent judges already rejected it. Meaning the outlines of this case, what we understand to be an effort to say that Mr. Lemon and the other reporter broke the law by covering some of what was happening in Minnesota, including what may have been a trespassing or illegal action of other people into that church area. Two judges said, nope, no case to start here. There's a very low bar for getting this kind of case going. You might remember the talk about a grand jury indicting a ham sandwich. That's because the grand jury only has to agree that there is some low cause after that, later, you tested a trial and you have the higher standard of beyond reasonable doubt. But one judge said, nope, didn't even meet that low bar. And another judge ruled the same way. So this federal judge rejected it, as did an appeals court. And we believe, according to new reporting, that more than one career prosecutor, that's the nonpartisan folks who just follow the evidence. At doj, more than one in Minnesota and then in LA refused to be involved in this case because while they are at the doj, meaning they're enforcing the deportation agenda and other perhaps controversial aspects of Donald Trump's policies, they said this was not supported by evidence. That's according to the indications we have. They believe the evidence doesn't back up the charges. DOJ also found, however, that if they looked far and wide, they could get someone else to bring what is now a very disfavored case. I can tell you because, you know, I host this program, but I'm also a lawyer and chief legal correspondent here. We cover a lot of cases. We almost never see federal criminal cases start with two rejections like this. I mean, almost never. And there are plenty of cases that are weak or that lose, but they usually start out normal because probable cause is a low standard. Before you get into what you think of Donald Trump or Mr. Lemon or any of this, whatever you think of the president or the reporters involved or the issues involved, we are still, if we are allowed to be a nation run by laws, under the rule of law, this was a dead end case until they kept searching and found someone to bring it. And that's what led to the federal arrest of Mr. Lemon last night in LA. He has done, as mentioned, previous reporting in Minnesota. His lawyer said he's in LA to cover the Grammys this weekend. And he has now gone through this federal court hearing just today. And if he comes out and speaks to the public, we will bring you that here on msnow. Now, Pam Bondi wanted to make sure everyone knows as she's on social media, that this is at her direction. And you see her there saying, the feds arrested Lemon. These other individuals I mentioned fort who I mentioned was the other reporter, et cetera. Like Trump's comments, that is an unusual social media public confession which could hurt this case. It also speaks to how many people are being targeted, targeted as enemies of the state, as enemies of Donald Trump. A concept so extreme that Pam Bondi claimed under oath before she was sworn in and became Attorney General, there would be no enemies list. We have continued to update this here. And if you find yourself over the weekend discussing this or any of these cases with anyone, remember you discuss them in isolation and any one of them could be debated. But when you look at how many different people are being subpoenaed, charged in some cases, dismissed, you see the failures on the far left altogether. You have a very obvious pattern of political targeting that is unlawful. 17 perceived foes and counting, many attacks. But again, legally, the cases are so weak, none of these have made it to trial, let alone conviction, while several, as you see in green, have fallen apart. And so in America tonight, where there is a backlash over the killing of American citizens, where there is, as you see, all of these people gathered day after day peacefully protesting against the violence they faced from the government. They are exercising their First Amendment rights while a journalist. Two journalists are now indicted for exercising their First Amendment rights. The Trump DOJ made it very clear Lemon was a target. This is not a case where some local prosecutors were going through different facts and ended up with a high profile defendant. This is an individual who is well known on CNN who has had a back and forth with Donald Trump in the public square before. Who.

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[MSNBC Host]

The president, as I showed you, clearly does not like, who is also an independent journalist, meaning he's not a part of a giant company which has the same budget and law firms and money for lawyers without the corporate backing. Inside the church, during what is now at issue in this case, Lemon clearly wanted to make sure that people understood that like many other journalists, whether it's in this country or elsewhere, who cover situations that could involve illegality, we have seen reporters across the spectrum, from here to other outlets to Fox News go and cover curfews and protests. And after a curfew, you're not supposed to be on the street, but journalists are out on the street. Right, but when you're covering the fact that people are out on the street under American law, that doesn't make you part of the crime. And Lemon that day made sure he wanted to state for the record in public on his live videos, what he said he was doing.

[Don Lemon]

So the protesters are confronting church members and leaders. They stop the service. A lot of people, number of people have left. There are some who are still sitting here.

[MSNBC Host]

How is the injustice that is happening within your city?

[Don Lemon]

I'm just here. I'm just here photographing.

[MSNBC Host]

Are you okay with your.

[Don Lemon]

I'm not part of. I'm not part of the group. I'm just here photographing.

[MSNBC Host]

I'm a journalist. I'm not part of the group. I'm a journalist. This has nothing to do with what you think of Mr. Lemon. We would be reporting this story the exact same way as I mentioned, if it was one of our colleagues. Yes, we are reporters. So you could say, oh, we look at this as reporters, but we also know a lot about it. It was one of our colleagues from Fox News or Newsmax who was at a protest of a different hue or association. If they were filming, videoing, talking, reporting, asking questions, that is the core First Amendment protected activity. Now, afterward, we know this escalated Trump's doj and the president himself put on that public pressure. I showed you that. Lemon discussed his role.

[Don Lemon]

Once the protest started in the church, we did an act of journalism, which was report on it and talk to the people who were involved, which included the pastor, members of the church and members of the organization.

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[Don Lemon]

It's called journalism.

[MSNBC Host]

That's what happened. Journalism. Reporting is protected. In the First Amendment. There are people who talk about how there are different parts of the Constitution. What's the most important part? The Bill of Rights are essential. Traditional conservatives have long said you need the Bill of Rights because you would have the risk of government overreach. And in the traditional liberal and conservative space, it was often conservatives and libertarians who said, yeah, we need our Bill of Rights because we are skeptical of the big government abuse and overreach. And when you start out on those Bill of Rights, whether you remember it from civics or not, the first speech in the press, the second, the rights to arms, a well regulated militia being important to the safety of the people, that was what was deemed at the time. Second Amendment rights have expanded over time, but the first and the Second Amendment are related in the eyes of the founders because they were protections against a despotic government. Now we live in a world where maybe ideology doesn't matter, not to this president, clearly, and maybe not to many of his supporters who used to call themselves conservatives. I can just tell you what, the First Amendment protects all of that type of journalism, whether it's unpopular or not, but especially when it is attacked by the government, because if it is popular and not under attack, well, thankfully, then you don't even need the First Amendment. When do you need it? Times like these, those protests in Minneapolis today are against government overreach. And they are done through the powers and the expectation of the ability to speak under the First Amendment. As you see, crowds are large. Now, when we marked Donald Trump's one year of this second term, we reported on specifically guardrails against the abuse of power and autocracy. How some were failing in red or faltering in yellow, but how some were working in green. I'm showing you something we did before tonight. So we were on record with this regardless of what you think about this new case, but we had journalists and protests in green because they are working. 13 million plus people exercising these rights, even amid violence by the government and some Americans slain in the street. Journalists get a check mark because we didn't know, frankly, exactly how to count it. But here we are, guardrails being held up on the protest front by energetic, clearly courageous people. Those other guardrails that are supposed to work, of the doj, prosecutors standing up or of the courts limiting abuse, some of those held at times, some involve people trying. But we're not just interested in trying. We're talking about a country here, not an A for effort. And so I have to report quite accurately, some of the efforts to try are not working. The protest, the journalism is powerful. But the people at doj, they tried to stop it. Some of these judges, I told you, I tried to stop it. But if in our system they can't stop it and it's wrong and they've already said it's wrong, we have a problem. And the President is zeroing in on precisely the rights that matter and are working. Protests work, pressure works. Journalism, for all of its criticism and we welcome it, open minded criticism of how we could do better. Overall, journalism works. It is journalism and reporting, which is how the American public knows about so many of the things that Trump is doing that it now opposes. 58% opposing the ICE tactics and violence, people upset or opposing Donald Trump's economic problems. Those are facts that others may want to lie about, but the public has learned about them and a whole longer list I could give you those facts clearly scare this government to the point that it is now doing what it's doing. We'll be back with special guests in 90 seconds.

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[Don Lemon]

Donald Trump didn't conduct himself properly. Donald Trump inspired an insurrection. What he's doing is objectively bad for the world, is objectively bad for our democracy. History's not going to look fondly on Donald Trump. For doing what he's doing. Donald Trump is strong arming, bullying.

[MSNBC Host]

Don Lemon speaking out there. That was an interview on this program, and he's used his own independent reporting. As we've mentioned tonight, he has just been released from a court hearing, and I have new details on that. I want to bring in First Amendment attorney Kate Bolger, who's defended a journalist in court and counsels a range of media outlets. Gene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, Ms. Now analyst Gene, I have the latest from the courtroom. The government asked the judge to restrict Mr. Lemon's travel to three places, saying they viewed him as a, quote, danger to the community. The defense pushed back on that, while also saying that, consistent with the case, they agree not to communicate with any witnesses or victims from that underlying event. On January 18, Mr. Lemon's attorney saying his client's been a journalist for 30 years. He has zero history of obstruction. The idea that he would be a danger to the community there is, quote, unjustified. The judge has ruled Lemon will be able to travel and will be released on his personal recognizance despite that rather, rather intense rhetoric from the government. And the court appearance will next be scheduled in Minnesota. This happened in LA because it happened to be where the defendant, Mr. Lemon, was, and that's in February. Gene, I spoke a lot at the top of the broadcast. You can react to any of that or make your own points. Where's your mind at tonight?

[Gene Robinson]

I'm wondering how Pam Bondi managed to get any attorney who had passed a bar to file the suit, to lead the grand jury down the path toward an indictment of Don Lemon for absolutely committing journalism, for committing a sacrosanct, a protected activity. You know, you're a lawyer. I've been a journalist my entire adult life. And it's very clear what happened here. If journalists don't have the right to cover a protest, even an unruly protest, an obstructive protest, if we don't have the right to cover that, then we don't have the right to do journalism. There is not freedom of the press. It is our job to bring those stories to the world. It is our job to write that first rough draft of history, and you have to be there. It is just stunning that you could bring a case against a man who is known to be a journalist, who was universally known to be a journalist. So there's no question that he's some sort of rowdy protester. He's Don Lemon. He's a famous journalist. It's what he's always done. I guess this is meant for show. What? Many of the things this administration does are meant for show. Meant to intimidate, perhaps. If it's meant to intimidate, I'm pretty confident that it will not. And the journalists will continue doing journalism. That's our job.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. Kate, you have extensive experience in the area. Have you seen a case like this in America in the last 10 or 20 years?

[Kate Bolger]

No. And just for the moment, the idea that a prosecutor in the United States of America referred to a journalist as a threat to a community is so outrageous that we should all be singing from the treetops that this is an outrage. But to answer your question more directly, in fact, when I heard I was coming on here, I was thinking to myself, well, I'll do a little research and find a case where I can talk about, well, this Don Lemon situation isn't like that case. This is so clear cut a First Amendment violation that I can't find a precedent or think of a precedent. It is an outrage in every conceivable way, and there is nothing that ever looked like it. Sure, there are cases about a reporter getting in the way or interfering with a camera or messing with a police officer, but this isn't that. This is simply a reporter reporting on other people's expressive rights. It's such an extraordinary deviation from everything else that's happening.

[MSNBC Host]

And Kate, let me do one more legal point. And then. Yes, but Kate, how rare is it to have multiple judges say this didn't even meet that low standard?

[Kate Bolger]

I mean, it's extraordinary. And what's more extraordinary about it is that there was some. Some of the DOJ's filings were actually under seal, and the judges weren't even aware. So not only did two judges reject these charges, but the DOJ was actually filing things secretly under seal, characterizing a journalist doing the act of journalism, commenting on other people's expressive rights, characterizing that as so secret that it had to be done in private. It's unbelievably unbelievable.

[MSNBC Host]

Gene.

[Gene Robinson]

Well, no, I just wanted to note that in those clips that you showed earlier, you heard Don Lemon. You saw him interviewing people who were of the church. So it's not as if he came in Rah Rah only talked to the protesters. He was talking to the people in the church whose service had been interrupted. He's bringing both sides, all sides of the story, to his viewers and listeners. And so if that isn't journalism, then clearly this administration has no idea what journalism is. And it would so surprise me Again, you guys are the, are the, are the experts. But it would surprise me if this just didn't just get dismissed at a very early stage.

[MSNBC Host]

Both of our guests are going to stay with us, I want to believe. We have now a shot of where Mr. Lemon is expected to come out. He could speak very soon. This is again, all happened with haste from an arrest last night in LA around the reporting he did in Minneapolis, as you see, pretty straightforward. A clump of mics outside the federal courthouse where we know he has finished his appearance. And so First Amendment attorney Kay Bolger and journalist Gene Robinson. Stay with me. We believe this could happen soon. And when it does, we'll bring you Mr. Lemon's comments. Kate, here is what Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch said to Fox regarding the freedom of the press and the Lemon criticism.

[DOJ Spokesperson]

Do I have a reaction to it? I don't know what that means. What are you looking for me to do, Jump up and down? No, I don't have a reaction to it. I don't know that his, that the charges are unsealed yet. So I know I can't. I'm not going to comment on that.

[Gene Robinson]

Sorry.

[MSNBC Host]

We're going to take a look at another role. This is from Jan.19th. Let me play this as well, please.

[DOJ Spokesperson]

Now, what you saw there was anti Christian, anti law enforcement. That's a violation of law. As our assistant attorney general said yesterday, we are absolutely investigating that conduct. And the fact that that man, that Mr. Lemon thought that that was a good idea to do that and then to race away from it saying it was freedom of the press. Well, we'll see.

[MSNBC Host]

We'll see, Kate. That shows both him recently because he didn't say much. But then we also have him on FOX when he was talking that way. And I'll warn everyone, if Mr. Levin takes the mic, I will cut in. But go ahead, Kate.

[Kate Bolger]

I mean, I think what's amazing is the Trump administration has had this full scale attack on First Amendment rights from the first Trump administration to this one. And they've, they've changed the way they attack it. Sometimes they sue, sometimes they subpoena, sometimes they do all these things to try to whittle away not just at the rights of journalists, but public confidence in journalism. But this is one step further, right? This is criminalizing conduct that has never been criminalized in modern American society and doing it with that smug, sarcastic arrogance in which they talk about fellow American citizens that I think it's really, I mean, look, the federal government is wearing masks and killing our Citizens, we have things to worry about, but this. This constant erosion of these principles we've held dear with this smug, sarcastic tone is really something that should be alarming to all of our citizens. It's really remarkable to see that here we are watching.

[MSNBC Host]

Thank you. That's Kate Bolger giving us the breakdown. We're watching the footage we have of Mr. Lemon leaving the courthouse. We're going to listen to what he says when he gets to the mic. For those joining us, this is part of a wider case the Trump administration brought today. You can see John Lemon there walking, surrounded by many other reporters, photographers. Mr. Lemon was charged along with the people who stormed the church. It's a case virtually without any precedent. He's coming out of a court hearing where the Trump administration asserted in court that he was a, quote, danger to the community. But he was released, as you see, on his own reconnaissance. As mentioned, this happens to be in Los Angeles because that's where the feds took Mr. Lemon into custody. The next hearing in this unusual, controversial case which tries to essentially criminalize what he did in Minnesota, reporting on those events. The next hearing we could mention will be in February in Minnesota court. We're going to listen in to Mr. Lemon when he gets to the microphone. As you can see, plenty of interest here. Let's listen in.

[Don Lemon]

I need sunglasses.

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Good.

[Gene Robinson]

I'm good.

[MSNBC Host]

How are you?

[Gene Robinson]

Wow.

[Don Lemon]

Can everybody hear me? Are you guys set?

[MSNBC Host]

Everybody ready?

[Don Lemon]

So, look, I want to thank everybody for their support.

[Gene Robinson]

It really.

[Don Lemon]

It truly means the world to me. I have no idea what's going on because obviously, I haven't seen anything. I have spent my entire career covering the news. I will not stop now. In fact, there is no more important time than right now, this very moment, for a free and independent media that shines a light on the truth and holds those in power accountable. Again, I will not stop now. I will not stop ever. Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night for something that I've been doing for the last 30 years, and that is covering the news. The First Amendment of the Constitution protects that work for me and for countless of other journalists who do what I do. I stand with all of them, and I will not be silence. I look forward to my day in court. Thank you all.

[MSNBC Host]

We've been listening to Don Lemon's first remarks since his indictment by the Trump doj. He read a short, what appeared to be prepared statement saying in general terms that what he was indicted for and what is at issue in the incident in Minnesota was something he's been doing his whole life, a reference to a very long career. Mr. Lemon, of course, known as a CNN reporter at anchor, also had stints with NBC and other outlets. Who can see on the overhead shot him walking out surrounded by journalists. We're going to listen and see if we hear anything else on the microphones. But it does appear that he's walking away from where he made his remarks. And Gene Robinson, we're going to keep our cameras on this as always. If we get more remarks or news, we'll go back into it. But your thoughts on legally what, of course, is going to be a fairly broad and brief remark. Set of remarks. Most lawyers prefer clients don't speak at all on arraignment day, no matter how innocent they. They assert that they are. Your reaction?

[Gene Robinson]

No, it was short and sweet. And I, he basically said all that you need to say I was doing journalism. That's what I've done for 30 years. And I'm going to keep doing it. And guess what? It's protected activity. I looked at the charges, and it looks to me as if the Justice Department is attempting to claim that the protests and, and Don Lemon violated the First Amendment protected right to freedom of worship that was held by the people in the church. This is certainly a novel kind of argument. As Kate said, I've never heard or seen anything like this. And again, I just, I can't imagine that this won't relatively quickly be tossed out by a judge since the judges who have looked at it before, the two judges who were presented with this theory before the indictment said, no, this is, take, get this, you know, get this out of here. This, this, this is not a case. This is not a thing. So again, what's the, what's the purpose? They're making a big splash. And sometimes that's what this administration wants to do, and sometimes they want to chip away and erode the, the rights that, that we have. And maybe even if this case is not on the, you know, if the Justice Department doesn't succeed in throwing Don Lemon in jail, maybe they believe they will have chipped away at our freedom to journal.

[MSNBC Host]

Gene Robinson is speaking. We've seen Mr. Lemon now getting into a vehicle there. He's in that SUV as it drives off from the LA courthouse in our overhead cameras are catching that. And it really is striking because this format of covering a judicial proceeding, covering a defendant walking out of court, keeping an eye on the moving vehicle, these are all tenets of the journalism that, by the way, Mr. Lemon has practiced for a long time. And yet here, based on the entire indictment, which I've read in our coverage and evidence, this is very different from other cases, given how thin the evidence is, how he was publicly politically targeted, and how, as mentioned, several judges already tried to stop what the Trump administration pulled off. What we're now seeing, Mr. Lemon in that vehicle leaving the courthouse, I want to bring into our special coverage. David French, who's written for the New York Times, is a free speech expert in his own right, used to lead the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. What do you say, David, to seeing this, a type of indictment of two journalists, Mr. Lemon being the most prominent, this happening here in America today?

[David French]

Well, look, I mean, journalists have a right to cover illegal activities. And the, the intrusion of the church was unquestionably illegal. I mean, you don't have a right to interrupt somebody's worship service. But journalists can cover illegal activities. In fact, right before I came on camera, I was reading an ACLU complaint about illegal stops in Minnesota. And in some of those illegal stops, there were right wing influencers filming right alongside the ICE officers. Does that mean they're co conspirators with the ICE officers or are they covering what the ICE officers are doing, even if it's illegal? And so this is a pretty obvious distinction that's been known for a very long time.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah, it's under, and look, it's under law.

[David French]

If the dodge. Yeah. If the DOJ has compelling evidence that he actually participated as opposed to covering. We haven't seen it yet. And that, that is this, that's why these kinds of cases are incredibly dangerous. You throw out vague, broad indictments. You then sort of dance on the, you know, you, you dance on television to celebrate the indictment. And then now, you know, we're going to end up doing. We're going to wait and actually have sober analysis of the evidence. And based on some of the coverage I've seen, it's going to be really hard to carry a conviction here. Really, really hard.

[MSNBC Host]

But let me put you a little. What about this happening here in America under Trump at that altitude? What does this mean to you?

[David French]

I mean, this is one of so many things that we are covering and watching at this very moment. Just think about this week so far. We've had the raid of a Fulton county election center where the head of the Director of National Intelligence was present. We've had the President calling for the arrest of Barack Obama, trafficking in the wildest conspiracy theories. And now we have an arrest of a journalist on very specious grounds. And it's just piling up and piling up and piling up. And what I think we're watching is a process in which I think they're trying to, in essence, desensitize Americans because we can't live in this constant state of alert and outrage. And so a lot of people are going to want to back away from this. It just feels so overwhelming. But I think we should look at the overwhelming day after day pattern of unconstitutional actions as an alarm bell. This is what's supposed to rally us, not to deter us.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. And we are, at the same time seeing people rallied. I have headlines on these protests in frigid temperatures in Minneapolis, where they've seen two Americans killed. Nationwide protests are the call. Among some. Reuters reports Business Insider. No work, no school, no shopping. A general strike being planned. I want to go right to the target list because we've added Mr. Lemon to a list we've been keeping. This is number seven. Sorry, let's go to the indictment targets. This list? Yeah. And in all seriousness, I'm talking to my producers, and we have many lists because there have been many approaches of crackdowns. But the enemies list, David, shows also the trap of discussing only one of these cases. You could discuss only whether Mayor Baraka was trespassing in a city where he's mayor. That case fell apart, charges completely dropped. You could discuss whether James Comey was lawfully prosecuted by a valid prosecutor. He wasn't. Case dropped. Other of these cases are open, and we always follow the evidence. On the right, the subpoenas, Mr. Lemon and Ms. Ford. Down in the bottom, though, when you look at it together, what do you see? And is there a problem with taking the administration at its word to look only at each case individually?

[David French]

Nobody, nobody should take the administration at its word. In fact, it's lied so much, so frequently at such high volume, the. They have zero benefit of the doubt at this point. None. And we have seen circumstances where they've trumpeted arrests only to drop charges quietly. In fact, even asking to drop charges with prejudice, meaning they can't refile them. We have seen cases brought where grand juries failed to indict time and time again. And the old saying is, a prosecutor and it can indict a hand sandwich. It's easy to indict people, and yet we've seen indictments fail again and again. There used to be something called a presumption of regularity that the Department of Justice enjoyed in federal courts because it had a reputation for truth telling, for fair dealing in its litigation. They have squandered that completely. So we're right now at a point where we're looking at Soviet levels of truth on a daily basis from our own Department of Justice. And I don't think it's sunk in with enough Americans that that is the reality, but it is absolutely the reality.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. David, Kate, and Gene, thank you. Part of our special coverage here, we've gone through the better part of the hour with very few breaks. I want to have a programming note. Don Lemon's lawyer tonight. Abby Lowell will be on Ms. Now at 9pm Again, thanks to our guests.

[Kate Bolger]

Thank you.

[Gene Robinson]

Thank you.

[David French]

Thank you.

[MSNBC Host]

Don Lemon's lawyer will be on at 9pm Eastern tonight, 6pm Pacific. Sure to expand on what we heard from defendant Don Lemon in this big case. This is also a news day where about 3 million new Epstein files dropped at a time where the administration is under pressure for its cover up there for breaking that law. For these other stories we're covering, the Epstein stories is still huge. We're going to tell you what's in some of those files next. There's a lot happening. The other breaking news really rippling across Washington, the country today is that there's new Epstein files out. The doj, after blatantly breaking the law that Trump signed, has now released, 40 days after the deadline, 3 million new pages and over 100,000 pictures.

[DOJ Spokesperson]

Today's release marks the end of a very comprehensive document identification and review process. After submitting the final report to Congress as required under the act and publishing the written justifications for redactions in the Federal Register, the department's obligations under the act will be will be completed.

[MSNBC Host]

This has been a saga and story where both things are true. There has been rampant delay and violations of the plain letter of the law. On the other hand, for the cynics who said, well, maybe they'll just run out the clock forever and nothing else will ever be released against the precedent of secret grand jury materials and DOJ's general practice of secrecy. And that runs back through both parties. A lot of material, the millions of documents were released today. The deputy attorney general also spoke about whether he's covering up for his boss.

[DOJ Spokesperson]

I can assure that we complied with the statute, we complied with the act, and there is no, we did not protect President Trump. My team has certain communications with the White House. Let me just be clear. They had nothing to do with this review. They had no oversight over this review.

[MSNBC Host]

That's the claim by a Doj there. There were tips that involve accusations. That doesn't mean proof regarding whether Epstein and Trump participated in sexual abuse or crimes together. There's not clarity on whether that lead was followed. Other tips include things where news articles are simply forwarded by Epstein. I'm going to show you more of that. Emails where Epstein discusses Trump. Something we knew about. There is an important chart I want to show you from inside the federal government. This is new. We hadn't seen it before. Partially redacted, but as you see, this is the DOJ looking at what they call the agents, accountants, authorized individuals, associates, redacted employee. Take it for what you will, but some of these people might have been charged. Only Maxwell was. Elon Musk also outed for the first time in detail in these files because he writes to Epstein about trying to come visit the island and specifically says, what will be the wildest party on your island? What does wild mean when you're talking to this pedophile? Well, that's open, I suppose, to interpretation. A year later, there was an effort to coordinate an island visit with Epstein telling Musk he'd send a helicopter. Again, these are the emails we have. We cannot say whether that visit transpired or certainly whether any crimes occurred. You might recall that Trump's commerce Secretary said Epstein was a blackmailer and talked openly about him last year. Turns out there are more hidden contacts between the two. An individual reference there, I should say is Mr. Lutnick. Refers to an email about them getting together. This is after Lutnick claimed he severed ties. We should note that Lutnick publicly distanced himself. And in that planning, it appeared that Lutnick was on a trip with his wife. The DOJ was says this is the last of the files they release. They'll release. We should note, 3 million is a lot less than the 6 million that prosecutors at the DOJ had initially said they had. So is this a full release or not? That question looms large over what is a ton of new documents. We are joined by Tara Palmieri, a veteran journalist, author of the Red Letter, and host of the Tara Palmieri show podcast, where she's covered exactly this story for a long time. Let's start with what's new. We can't get through all the documents today, but what jumps out to you today in the new files?

[1-800-Flowers Announcer]

I think the fact that President Trump's inner circle is just so deeply entangled with Jeffrey Epstein, more so than they were ever willing to admit. The fact that Elon Musk would tweet, you know, President Trump is going to get blown up in the Epstein files. And yet here he is arranging to go on the island on a night that would be, you know, a party island. Howard Lutnick going out of his way to say he went into Epstein's house once with his wife and was horrified by it, yet he was arranging to go to his island. So it's just like these people, they had such hubris. They had no problem lying about their extensive relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously, there's a lot of really concerning tips about Donald Trump in this, in these documents that we don't know if the FBI actually followed up on or did any investigating. They have maintain their position since June that there were no other men involved in the sexual assault of a thousand women. And those young girls, now women, many of them have filed lawsuits, civil lawsuits, because they couldn't do it criminally because the statute of limitations, or they have, you know, various settlements. Ghislaine Maxwell said there were 25 men that signed settlements with one plaintiff alone. And so we're supposed to believe that the Department of Justice actually did a real investigation on this. It's just, and we're just seeing a bunch of tips, some very disturbing about the president, but we don't know if they ever even took them seriously.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah, I mean, Donald Trump's the current president and he has known ties to Epstein. So a big part of these new files today, number one, is the heat that puts on him and as you say, his allies. I mean, Elon Musk is a, was a recent Trump special employee, a kind of a super cabinet official. So those are big questions. Number two, the questions at the DOJ implicate the Trump administration, which was in charge when Epstein died, but also prior and later DOJs under Democratic administrations. We'll pull up the chart again from the lead. I mean, I have it. It's one of the things I immediately printed to really study because without disfavoring or biasing people, because there's much we don't know, the fact that this many individuals were tied to Epstein in ways that the DOJ at the time viewed as authorized agent associate people with potential knowledge, people as, you know, redacted. And the only one charged as Maxwell. Tara, how do you view that in terms of a report card for DOJs in both parties appearing to go softer on these now known associates than many other targets for crimes that were, frankly, lesser crimes in America?

[1-800-Flowers Announcer]

It seems like they've just given up on it altogether.

[David French]

They.

[1-800-Flowers Announcer]

They have. I mean, before June, they said they were Active leads. When you spoke to the Justice Department, Pam Bondi said she's got the Epstein lead list on her desk. Then afterwards there's no one else involved. And it's, it's really disheartening for the victims because they were hoping that with the Epstein files coming out they would have a sort of immunity in a sense where it would be public. The names of the people that abused them and the information that they submitted. They wanted to feel like it wasn't their burden. They wouldn't have to deal with defamation suits. Virginia Giuffre obviously had to deal with a ton of defamation suits from speaking out.

[MSNBC Host]

I'm only jumping with the minute we have left. If we say that the evidence suggests maybe first term Trump, DOJ fell down on the job, then isn't it the job of the next DOJ under Merrick Garland to pick up the leads.

[1-800-Flowers Announcer]

And the one before that? I mean he was 1996 the first call went in about Jeffrey Epstein from Maria Farmer about her and her sister being sexually molested. And every single time he used his high ranking officials, his contacts, the Obama's former White House counsel Kathy Remler was giving him advice on how to deal with an accusation against Donald Trump. I mean that is how high up Jeffrey Epstein was connected to all of these administrations. And that is why he got away with one of the most perverse crimes for three decades.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah, I'm over on time. Do you think these are most of the docs or, or there are some held back or too early to tell because you've followed this closely.

[1-800-Flowers Announcer]

I just think 3 million documents had to be held back. That's a pretty high number and we don't know why. And I think there needs to be a deeper exploration into that.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah, a lot going on today as you know. Tara. Well, glad we got you on this story. Thank you. We'll be right back.

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[David French]

21 the US military deployed on the streets of America. Whole communities targeted for removal.

[MSNBC Host]

There was tremendous anxiety as they saw neighbors and friends being taken.

[David French]

And when accounted accountability finally came knocking the burn order to cover it all up.

[MSNBC Host]

I never believed that America would be.

[David French]

Doing this a stain on this country, one that we said we would never repeat.

[MSNBC Host]

Rachel Maddow Presents Burn Order all episodes available now. An update from Washington and Congress where the clash over DHS and ICE tactics has continued. The Senate has now passed a spending bill that would fund the government. There could still be this at least interim weekend shutdown over the timing. The House comes back on Monday where they could put the funding back on the table. The bill sets up a two week period to negotiate these DHS reforms. Democrats see that as a win since they're in the minority and Trump often resists any negotiation. Democrats want to use that to both fix and spotlight what they say are untenable actions by ICE in Minnesota and elsewhere. That does it for us.

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