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The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump DOJ Indicts Former FBI Director Comey
00:42:09
The Trump Justice Department has charged former FBI Director James Comey again, following the dismissal of his first indictment. MS NOW’s Antonia Hylton reports, and is joined by Hofstra University’s James Sample and former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance.
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Antonia Hylton
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Antonia Hylton
I'm Antonia Hilton in this evening for Ari Melber. We start tonight with Donald Trump's Justice Department indicting former FBI Director James Comey, and not for the first time. This is the second case against Comey after the first attempt collapsed, putting one of Trump's most prominent perceived political enemies firmly back into the spotlight, the New York Times calling it, quote, another twist in the department's tortured efforts to satisfy the demands of Mr. Trump to target Comey, a longtime foe of the president. This charge is over a social media post made nearly one year ago of a photograph of seashells arranged to say 864786 is often slang used in places like restaurants for to remove and Trump is, of course, the 47th president. The DOJ is claiming Comey did, quote, knowingly and willfully make a threat to take the life of and to inflict bodily harm upon Trump by posting that image, citing a statute that criminalizes threats to the president. The indictment comes as acting AG Todd Blanche, currently helming the doj, has been making splashy moves to permanently get that top job. Blanche answering questions about free speech versus true threats
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Todd Blanche
for critics who say where
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James Sample
does free speech end and an actual threat of violence. Piggy I don't know what critics say that, especially today, but it's not a very difficult line to look at and it's not in my mind a difficult line for one to cross over one way or the other. And so whether there is a defense as you just described, maybe Comey and
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Antonia Hylton
his wife were tracked by Secret Service following the seashell post last year, a step that's usually reserved for serious threats. And Comey sat for an interview, but DOJ took no further action until now. Comey, responding to the indictment in a brief video this afternoon.
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James Comey
Nothing has changed with me. I'm still innocent, I'm still not afraid, and I still believe in the independent federal judiciary. So let's go.
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Antonia Hylton
And he spoke out on the actual post last year, saying he never intended for violence.
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James Comey
And we stood over it. And I said, you know, I think it's some kind of, like, political message. And she said, you know, 86 when I was a server, she did a lot of working in restaurants, meant to remove an item from the menu when you ran out of ingredients. And I said, well, to me as a kid, it always meant to leave a place to ditch a place. I said, that's really clever. So then she said, you should take a picture of that. And I did. And I posted it on my Instagram account and thought nothing more of it until I heard through her that people were saying it was some sort of a call for assassination, which is crazy. But I took it down. I don't even if I think it's crazy, I don't want to be associated with violence of any kind.
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Antonia Hylton
And joining me now to examine all of this is James Sample, constitutional law professor at Hofstra University, and Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney and Ms. Now legal contributor. It is great to have both of you. Joyce. So let's start with a question that Blanche essentially dodged at the presser earlier today, which is the crucial question here, how prosecutors are going to try to prove intent in this case. Comey, you hear him describe there, he immediately took this post down very clearly, stated that he had no violent intentions here. So how are prosecutors going to prove otherwise?
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Joyce Vance
I think he's gone straight to the heart of the problem with the government's case here, which is that they will have to convince not just one person, not just a grand jury that hears only one side of the story, but a unanimous jury in a trial courtroom with a judge presiding that Jim Comey intended to kill or physically harm the president when he posted on Instagram. That feels like an insurmountable hurdle to me. You know, the standard federal prosecutors use that we talk about all the time, Antonia, is the one that's found in the justice manual that says you shouldn't indict a case unless you believe, you really firmly believe you have sufficient evidence to convict and to have that conviction affirmed on appeal. The government does not have that there. And it was an unreasonable exercise of prosecutorial discretion to take this case to the grand jury.
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Antonia Hylton
So, James, if this is unreasonable, if there is an insurmountable hurdle here, what's the real point of this?
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James Sample
The real point is harassment. The real point is retribution. The point here is that we have two tracks at this point in our system of justice. And just in the last three weeks, we've had that encapsulated. You know, two weeks ago, this same Department of Justice, led by this same acting Attorney General, sought to vacate the convictions of the worst of the worst related to January 6th. The Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the seditious conspiracy charges. Those are the individuals who weren't covered by the full pardon given to the 1500 plus individuals otherwise responsible for January 6th. Last week we saw this same Department of Justice go after the Southern Poverty Law center for infiltrating hate groups. And today they decide to go after Jim Comey again, this time for a social media post. The message here is that Todd Blanche has an audience of one, and that is Donald Trump. It's not the rule of law. It's not what Joyce is referencing as the true and historic standards of the Department of Justice.
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Antonia Hylton
Joyce, what do you imagine? I mean, we heard Kash Patel at that same presser claim that there have been nine, ten months or so of investigation here. You know, at one point, Blanche described the normal process to bring forward witnesses. I mean, implying that they, that they're going to have an argument to make here around intent. And I guess I'm giving any shred of benefit of a doubt here to the best of your ability. What can you imagine? Or your best informed guess, what does it look like as to what the federal government could have gathered here after trailing Comey with the Secret Service and allegedly investigating this over the course of the last year. Which means there's overlap here between this case and the one that was previously tossed out.
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Joyce Vance
Yeah, absolutely. I think James has the correct answer about this. This is not about convicting James Comey in a courtroom. This is about intimidating and harassing him. And of course, it's not lost on any of us. You know, that Todd Blanche is currently the Acting Attorney General of the United States. He's auditioning for the top job he wants to be the who gets to run the President's law firm, which is now seated on Pennsylvania Avenue in the Kennedy Building where so many other people have served the American people. And it's really deeply disturbing. Unless the government has somehow acquired a smoking gun. Jim Comey writing in his diary or telling three reliable sources that he, when he posted that on Instagram. He wanted to see the President of the United States killed. The government didn't do any investigation in the last 10 months. And look, if they had a smoking gun like that, we would know about it, because this Justice Department leaks, and they would have been singing that from the top of the mountains.
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Antonia Hylton
The other problem here, to me, it seems, is that this whole thing is built on the assumption that we all agree that 86 means to murder, to kill someone. If you have any friends who've ever worked in the restaurant business, it kind of means to get rid of. To toss out food, to not put an ingredient in somebody's order. It doesn't mean you are murdering the food. And so I guess to what extent does the technical definition, the sort of publicly held standard of an understanding of a term apply in this case? Joyce?
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Joyce Vance
Yeah. This is why the government will be unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Comey had the necessary intent. You know, I spent four years waiting tables. I know what 86 means. It means you're out of something, and the chef has taken it off of the menu. Well, maybe other people use it in a more violent sense. But the jury will have to be persuaded that Comey didn't mean it in the more innocent application and that he intended to do violence. And that's completely out of keeping with Jim Comey's character. Anybody who worked with him when he was at either the FBI or the Justice Department is aware of his reputation and his effort to do the right thing. Certainly not someone who ever called for violence. And so this is the kind of case where the defense will have character witness after character witness, and it doesn't really look like the government has anything to counter that.
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Antonia Hylton
James, I know you. You have something to say on this, too.
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James Sample
Well, Joyce said everything. Everything Joyce said is absolutely spot on. But let's get really legal here and technical just for. Just for a moment. The. The legal question here, the threshold legal question is, is 8647 a true threat? Now, that. That is a term of art in the meaning of First Amendment law. True threats are not protected speech. So that's an. Threats. True threats against the President. There are statutes, and the statutes under which he was charged here are those statutes. That is a serious felony. The constitutional standard, though, for true threats in this context comes from a 2023 case that's the most recent application of the true threat standard. And that case is called Counterman v. Colorado. Unless people think we're just talking about politics here. That decision was 7 to 2. Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Alito and Justice Kavanaugh are in the majority. And as Joyce just noted, there is an objective component and a subjective component. And in order to prove their case, they're going to need to prove that this was objectively a true threat and subjectively, that Jim Comey was at least recklessly disregarding of the idea that it could be perceived as a true threat. The idea that if this were ever to go to trial, which is its own threshold question, whether that ever happens, that, as Joyce said, they could get 12 jurors to unanimously convict on both elements of that is crazy. This is not a serious prosecution. It is a serious use of the Department of Justice for mis purposes.
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Antonia Hylton
And to be clear, courts also statutes also prohibit the government from going after someone a second time just because their first attempt failed. Right.
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James Sample
That is vindictive prosecution is a serious matter. I think there's a greater case here for vindictive prosecution than there is for the underlying offense.
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Antonia Hylton
All right, well, James and Joyce, you're sticking with me. We're going to continue breaking down this. And a very bizarre DOJ filing that came out later in the show. New reports that Pete Hegseth is trying to hide the truth about the Iran war and Trump world's new attack on Jimmy Kimmel. Plus Howard Dean on the public backlash to the ballroom and the new plan to put Trump's face on your passport. We're going to see you again in 90 seconds. And we are back with James Sample and Joyce Vance. And I want to get right into this new filing in the ballroom drama. I want to read a little bit from this filing because it was one of the strangest legal documents, Joyce, that I've ever read in my life. This is the DOJ trying to make the argument for Trump's ballroom. We know that Trump, his allies, have been especially sort of doubling down on their justifications for this in the wake of what happened on Saturday in Washington, D.C. but here I just want to read one excerpt from this filing that is meant to explain why this ballroom that's going to cost $400 million does not need congressional or any really sort of public approval. Part of it says because it is Donald J. Trump, a highly successful real estate developer who has abilities that others don't. This frivolous and meritless lawsuit was filed again. It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome. I mean, this is a document, Joyce, that to me reads not just as aggressive lawyering. I mean, it is the Justice Department basically taking on the voice and the personal grievances of the president. There are capitalized references to fake. You know something, we see the president post on Truth Social all the time. Barack Hussein Obama, who has nothing to do with the construction of this ballroom whatsoever. Have you ever seen anything like this?
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Joyce Vance
You know, I never have. And I didn't realize that they were so shorthanded at the Justice Department that they were letting the president write pleadings himself for signatures by senior leaders at doj. Because this pleading is signed off on by Todd Blanch and by the Associate Attorney General. That in and of itself is. Is very unusual. Blanche doesn't sign it. It's over his name. But the associate, the number three person in the department, actually has a we on this pleading. And so for it to be of this tenor and of this extraordinarily low caliber, it doesn't make legal arguments that engage with the legal arguments that are at play in that case, which involves whether or not the historic trust is entitled to a slowdown, to a delay in building this until the larger legal issues can be determined by the courts. This is just an extraordinarily disturbing plea to James.
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Antonia Hylton
Normally you think new motions are going to have new facts, new information in them. Did you see anything like that in there?
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James Sample
No. And let's put this in a larger context. How this fits into the Trump presidency and how it fits into their approach. It's a go it alone administration, right? This, you can debate whether there should be a ballroom. That's an interesting question. People, probably, reasonable people, probably have different views on whether or not we should build a ballroom. The security concerns are important. They are real. But the actual process of legislation is also real. Let's be clear. This is not. The reason that this is enjoined is not because people oppose the ballroom. The reason it's enjoined is that there is a process that you need to go through. And that's what makes this the ballroom, consistent with so many other things. It's consistent with the idea that individuals deserve due process. It's consistent with the idea that the administration has no interest in judges being authorized or authorizing warrants. It's consistent with the tariff process. He wants to do everything himself without checking with anyone else. And by anyone else, we mean the other branches of government. What's new here is basically nothing. It is a reiteration of an administration that believes it can act entirely unilaterally.
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Antonia Hylton
Joyce, can I ask you, too, about the timing here and if you think it's a coincidence, both with this ballroom filing, where they describe in this filing, they assert the shooting could have never taken place in this new facility, new ballroom that they want to build. I mean, just like a kind of ridiculous counterfactual claim, again, sort of not becoming of who you think is working at the DOJ and writing a filing like this. But then also to look at what's happening with James Comey here, both of these coming immediately after this assassination attempt that neither anyone associated with the ballroom or Comey himself has any connection to. But it certainly feels a bit like the administration is taking political advantage of a very real crisis.
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Joyce Vance
I think we all like to hedge our bets on this and say it feels like this or it seems like this. The unfortunate reality is that it. It is this, and this is what it looks like when the separation that's supposed to exist between the White House and the Justice Department is not just breaking down, but has been completely cast aside so that the Justice Department, which has enormous power, right, just as a young federal prosecutor in Birmingham had enormous power. When you're the attorney general or the director of the FBI, that power is magnified. And putting that. But making it available to the president to use for political purposes is extremely dangerous. It's how we end up in this moment. It's all connected. There's no such thing as coincidence when we look at this. And, of course, the ultimate absurdity gets exposed here when you think about the White House Correspondents association dinner, which is put on by journalists celebrating the free press and its independence from government, the suggestion that Donald Trump can decide where they should have the dinner, when they should have the dinner, and under what circumstances run so contrary to what this entire moment is about. Look, the nation experienced, I think, in many ways a near tragedy Saturday night. And I'm deeply grateful that no one, from the president, through his Cabinet, through innocent bystanders, were harmed in that incident. Political violence is never the answer. But using political violence for political purposes is in many ways just as dangerous. But this administration is now, you know, jumping up and down, standing on this incident as an excuse to do so many other things that it shouldn't be used for, whether it's indicting Jim Comey over seashells or using it as an. As an excuse in a case where a judge is litigating serious legal issues. The issues that James has pointed out in the case involving the ballroom, trying to push those aside and say, just let Trump do it. He's the stable genius. He alone can fix it.
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Antonia Hylton
Joyce Vance. James Sample, so grateful always to talk to you, too. You help me make sense of things. That don't make much sense. Thank you both. Coming up. Thank you. The Trump administration pressures Jimmy Kimmel with a new move critics warn imperils free speech. Also ahead, bracing report that Pete Hegseth may be hiding the truth of the Iran war. Plus, gas prices hit their highest point since the war started. And the State Department eyes a plan to put Trump's picture on your passport. Howard Dean is here.
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Chris Hayes
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Antonia Hylton
We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.
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Chris Hayes
Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today, wherever you get your podcasts.
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Antonia Hylton
New evidence tonight that Trump's war with Iran is inflicting serious damage to an already shaky economy. Gas is now at $4.18 a gallon. That's the highest since the start of the war. And 55% of Americans say their financial situation is getting worse. They're even more pessimistic now than during COVID or the financial cr. These price increases that are happening all the time are not sustainable.
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James Sample
There's no way.
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Antonia Hylton
I just saw someone pay $95 for gas. Like, that's literally a bill. And you know it's because of diesel. It's because of an unnecessary war that Donald Trump got us into.
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Jason Selvig
We can't have health care. We can't fund our schools. We can't build roads and bridges or anything like that. We can't have money for that. But when it comes to building Donald Trump's ballroom, Lindsey Graham and the Republicans are right there. They will do it the second he demands it.
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Antonia Hylton
And Trump World sure does indeed seem obsessed with that ballroom. And in fact, Lindsey Graham is now saying it's taxpayers, we should pay for it.
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Howard Dean
We're going to introduce legislation that would authorize $400 million to be spent to secure the to build the Presidential Ballroom. I'd like to vote as soon as possible to accelerate what America needs, a secure facility for the president and others to meet in to have a good time.
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Antonia Hylton
Accelerate what America needs or accelerate what Trump wants? Graham seems to think that it is a good idea to ask taxpayers, the vast majority of whom, by the way, will never get the chance to step Foot in this ballro to foot the bill. Mind you, last year, Trump told us all that he would pay for it himself.
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Howard Dean
It would actually be a beautiful addition. It's going to cost nothing. I'll spend the whole thing myself. It will do. A big, beautiful room, but we could use it at the White House.
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Antonia Hylton
It's really all starting to feel a little bit like let them eat cake. With this news arriving, as ProPublica reports, the White House is pushing for a rule change that would slash or end benefits for as many as 400,000Americans on supplemental Security Income who are living with disabilities like down syndrome or dementia and whose relatives receive SNAP benefits. Yeah, so Republicans might not say it to the President, but they know this is creating a brutal environment about six months away from the midterms. And joining me now is Howard Dean, former Vermont governor and DNC chair. So it is good to see you. Do you think Americans should be helping foot the $400 million bill for a ballroom while they're looking at 418 for some gas?
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Howard Dean
That's kind of a no brainer for everybody except Trump, who evidently doesn't have a brain to worry about. Look, all this stuff, generally speaking, when a party is in power and in the kind of trouble that Trump says the deadline for turning it around is September. I think Trump's doing everything he can to make sure the deadline's next week. He's not going to get out of this unless he steals the election, which I know he's going to try to do, but I don't see how he turns this around. The only question in my mind is whether we're going to pick up two chambers or one.
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Antonia Hylton
So, I mean, what do you think the calculus is inside the minds of whether it's Trump and his cabinet officials or it's Lindsey Graham? I mean, what calculus can they be making here that voters simply will forget about these optics and the symbolism of a ballroom while they're struggling to put food on the table and to fill up their tanks? And that instead they're gonna judge the Republican Party on what? I mean, like how well the Iran war is going. Like what, what math is it that they're doing here ahead of these midterms?
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Howard Dean
It's self preservation. The Republican Party has become the party of hate and anger and obese obeying Trump. And right now the electorate isn't gonna put up with the Republican Party. I think they know that. So they're just getting what they can in Washington while the getting's good.
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Antonia Hylton
So I have to ask you about Trump's State Department, this new reporting that they're reportedly planning to put Trump's face on American passports. I mean, he wants this new arch to go up in D.C. the ballroom is somewhat underway. You have this. It is a lot to process, I think, for your average voter. What did you think when you saw that?
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Howard Dean
Yeah, I just. I think the guy's crazy. You know, I thought that for a while. And I think the problem is he has a real hold over about 23% of the American people, but that's about 50% of the Republican Party. And the people who work for him and the people in Congress who think they work for him are, you know, they've long since given up doing anything for the constituents and they're just saving their own butts. But in the end, it's not going to work. The American people have had it, and I don't blame them. Now the question is, can we get the whip, the Democrats into shape so that we can present a culture, colorful alternative and a capable alternative? And I like very much the youth movement that's going on in the Democratic Party with a whole new generation starting to take power and challenge incumbents.
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Antonia Hylton
Interesting. Tell me more about that, the role that you think that youth movement is going to play in articulating what the Democratic Party is next. Because there's this debate that's been going on about whether it's enough for Democrats to basically let Trump make the case for them himself, you know, that he's gonna keep making these blunders. The economy is, you know, faltering and people are in pain. So it'll just. They'll be the obvious choice. But there are also a lot of young people in the Democratic Party who say no. We need to actively make an argument, tell a story about who we have and what we're going to offer.
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Howard Dean
If you look at the numbers of the Democratic Party, they're not that great. One of the reasons I thought that Mamdani's win in New York was so important was not that I agree with his politics. It's that he was put into office by 25 and 30, 35 year olds. And that's starting to happen all over the country. I'm going to be fascinated now that Swalwell's out of the governor's race in California, who wins that race on the Democratic side? I think this new generation is taking power. And whether we like it or not, that's going to happen. And there are going to be a lot of surprises. They're going to be A lot of veterans who get beaten primaries and don't come back. And I think there's a whole, the inside the Beltway crowd has had it. I think people are fed up with them. Democrats and the Republicans of course, have completely given up. But the Democrats got to earn this comeback. They can't just sit and wait, let the Republicans destroy themselves. We've got a 40 something year old guy, Zach Walls running out in Iowa. He's two points ahead of the Republican candidate in Iowa for the United States Senate. We're going to win the governor's race in Iowa. I mean, this is unbelievable. Nebraska, we've got a great chance in Omaha. I mean, I think we're going to knock off Susan Collins Long, who's so concerned about everything and never votes on both sides unless the Republicans say you got to vote with us. There's a lot of big people, big names that are going to go down in this election. But we have to show them, give them a reason to go down. And it can't just be Trump as a nutcase.
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Antonia Hylton
Howard Dean. There are going to be a lot of interesting races to talk to you about in the weeks and months to come. Thanks so much.
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Howard Dean
Thank you.
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Antonia Hylton
Coming up, round two of Trump versus Kimmel. The FCC now reviewing Disney's broadcast license. But first, new concerns over whether the Pentagon is giving Trump the full picture on the Iran war. That's after a quick break, Troubling new questions about Trump's war in Iran with the Atlantic bluntly reporting, quote, the Pentagon may not be telling Trump the full picture about the war. The Atlantic reporting that Vice President J.D. vance, always loyal to the administration in public, now growing increasingly concerned behind closed doors, believing the Pentagon has understated what appears to be the drastic depletion of US Missile stockpiles. And while Vance has reportedly stopped short of accusing Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth of misleading Trump, quote, some of Vance's confidants believe that Hegseth's portrayal has been so positive as to be misleading and that Pentagon leaders positive portrayals present an incomplete picture at best. The Atlantic reporting that in contrast to Hegseth's public remarks, quote, iran retains two thirds of its air force, the bulk of its missile launching capability and most of its small fast boats. Here's Hegseth.
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Joyce Vance
Though
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Jason Selvig
Iran has no air defenses, Iran has no air force, Iran has no navy, their missiles, their missile launchers and
- [29:36]
James Sample
drones being destroyed or shot out of
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Jason Selvig
the sky with our Israeli partners, America's military achieved every single objective on plan.
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Antonia Hylton
The new reporting comes as the war grinds into its second month, Axios likening it to a new Cold War. Quote, the tense stalemate has no immediate end in sight. So higher energy prices appear certain for months and a hot war could break out at any moment. Hegseth is set to testify before Congress tomorrow. And joining me now is Tom Nichols, writer with the Atlantic and Professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College. Tom, it's good to see you. I'll begin with just what jumps out to you is the most concerning part of the Atlantic's reporting about what's happening at the Pentagon.
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Todd Blanche
Two things. First, it's a reminder that Pete Hegseth is drastically in over his head in a job that he should never have been confirmed to the Senate. I think the Republican senators who went along with this know it and are starting to say it finally. But that, that because of that, everything he does has to be oriented toward keeping his job and keeping Donald Trump happy. The second thing that I wonder is how much of what Hegseth or Cain or anybody tells the president that he actually understands, because I think that's a challenge. I mean, Donald Trump, if you've ever talked to people who've tried to brief him, he's unbreakable. I mean, he just doesn't listen. He hears what he wants to hear. So that may be why, to some extent, why Vance is reticent to lay too much of that blame on Hegseth. I mean, there's clearly a tension in the Pentagon between people that Vance's people and the Hegseth crowd. But I think there's a bigger problem here that even if Hagseth were to go in and not do this song and dance that he does from the podium every day, you have to ask yourself how much of it the President. President can understand or is willing to understand. So this is pretty concerning on, on, you know, both counts of that.
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Antonia Hylton
And is your read advance through this reporting that he has genuine moral and strategic concerns about what's happening in the war? Or do you get the read that this is sort of political posturing because he understands how unpopular this war is with the public?
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Todd Blanche
Well, I'm, I'm hesitant to ever attribute deep convictions to J.D. vance about anything. But I will say that Vance is part of a group within the Republican Party and within this White House that didn't want to get involved in more wars overseas. They see China and the Pacific as the main area of threat to the United States. This is partly why Vance has been so obnoxious about Ukraine. He just doesn't think that Europe and the Middle east are places the United States ought to be anymore. So there is a. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that at least some of what Vance is doing here is enunciating things that he said long ago, before he ran for the Senate, before he became vice president. So I think, you know, we can give him some credit for sincerity there. But also the fact that a lot of this is getting out, I think, tells you that Vance knows that this is toxic. He knows that this is just a poisonous war. And the message coming out of this White House is very clear. J.D. vance and his people didn't want to do this. They're very worried about how it's going. And Pete Hegseth and his people are screwing this up.
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Antonia Hylton
So what concerns you most about the dynamic that's essentially described here, which is that the US has, the US Military has less at its disposal than the public thought. Thought, while Iran may have more at its disposal than Americans thought. What does that mean for us long term?
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Todd Blanche
It means that it's impossible to trust this administration and particularly this Defense Department leadership. And I want to be clear to delineate the leadership from the people and the officers who do their jobs every day about anything regarding this war. Donald Trump never came to the American people, never explained why he wanted to do this, never could settle on a rationale for, for what would count as winning. And now we have Pete Hegseth, basically, for now, seven weeks, giving the American people and Donald Trump a lot of happy talk. Well, you know, that's not really sufficient with American interests and American lives on the line. And it's, it's a reminder again that, you know, in a moment like this, America needs a real secretary of Defense, not some TV guy who knows how to talk to Donald Trump.
- [34:43]
Antonia Hylton
It also leaves you wondering if the Iranians know this, if it's factoring into some of the decision making that they've made. People ask themselves every day on our air and on others, sort of why they've been able to hold on for so long. But if they know what the Atlantic now knows and has told the rest of us, you start to get a sense why they may think they have this in the bag. Tom Nichols, good to see you and thank you. Thanks. Up next, renewed backlash after Trump goes after late night host Jimmy Kimmel. Once again, after a quick break.
- [35:19]
Chris Hayes
Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. I'm here to let you know the very first episode of my special miniseries, why is this Happening? The AI Endgame is out right now. In this series, I talk to a variety of experts each week about AI and what it actually is, what it means for us. To kick things off, I spoke with journalist Derek Thomson. He's been spending the better part of the last year trying to get his arms around the same question I am. Just how big a deal is this?
- [35:41]
Jason Selvig
These guys don't really know exactly what it is they're building. They don't know exactly what's behind the door that they're planning to open six months from now.
- [35:51]
Chris Hayes
Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:04]
Antonia Hylton
The Trump administration is once again going after a certain late night comedian. Ramping up pressure on Jimmy Kimmel, ABC and ABC's parent company Disney, in an unprecedented push that critics warn is about retribution. More so than any real policy today. Federal regulators ordering a review of all station licenses, licenses owned by ABC. The Times calling the FCC's action an extraordinary move as it intensifies efforts to punish major media outlets for their coverage. It comes just a day after Trump renewed calls for ABC to fire Kimmel over a parody of the White House Correspondents Dinner. That segment aired two days before the events of Saturday. Here's the portion that Trump and the first lady objected to, too.
- [36:53]
Jimmy Kimmel
Our first lady, Melania is here. Look at Melania, so beautiful. Mrs. Trump, you have a glow like an expectant widow. You know Melania's birthday is on Sunday.
- [37:04]
James Sample
That's right.
- [37:05]
Jimmy Kimmel
She's planning to celebrate at home the same way she always does, looking out a window and whispering, what have I done?
- [37:14]
Antonia Hylton
Last night, Kimmel returned to his show and defended the joke while also condemning political violence.
- [37:22]
Jimmy Kimmel
Was a pretend roast. I said our first lady Melania is here. Look at her. So beautiful. Mrs. Trump, you have a glow like an expectant widow. Which obviously was a joke about their age difference and the look of joy we see on her face every time they're together. He's almost 80 and she's younger than I am. It was not by any stretch of the definition a call to assassination. And they know that I've been very vocal for many years speaking out against gun violence in particular.
- [37:55]
Antonia Hylton
This is round two for Trump and Kimmel. ABC pulled Kimmel from the airwaves for six days back in September. It followed pressure from the Trump administration over Kimmel's comments about the killing of Charlie Kirk. His suspension faced massive backlash. Hollywood heavyweights like Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep and Jennifer Aniston all backing Kimmel Many people showed their support by canceling their Disney accounts, too. And it's not just Kimmel. The president likes to take credit for the cancellation of Stephen Colbert's show in his second term. He's gone after a whole range of networks, newspapers and media figures, from the Times and CBS to the Wall Street Journal, BBC, Disney, and more. Joining me now is Jason Selvig, actor, comedian, and one half of the political comedy duo the Good Liars. Jason, it's good to have you. I think I remember talking to you around the first Jimmy Kimmel versus Trump battle royale. And there, there was this joke on Twitter about how much resentment some people had over the fact that this administration had put them in a position where they were having to say things like, protect Jimmy Kimmel.
- [39:01]
Jason Selvig
I stand with Jimmy Kimmel.
- [39:03]
Antonia Hylton
I stand with Jimmy Kimmel. And I guess I'm back there again today. Are you surprised?
- [39:11]
Jason Selvig
I mean, am I surprised?
- [39:12]
James Sample
No.
- [39:13]
Jason Selvig
I mean, Donald Trump has like an enemies list. We know that. I guess I'm surprised with, with just the reaction of the American people after the first round of this. Trump is using the federal government to go after late night comedians. It's so silly. It's, it's all because he can't take a joke. I mean, these comedians are making fun of him. He's the President of the United States. Late night comedians always make fun of the president. And he is so sensitive that when the.
- [39:43]
Howard Dean
He's.
- [39:44]
Jason Selvig
The crowd laughs at him. He can't take it. And look, I'm on Jimmy Kimmel's side. He is making jokes about somebody who should be made fun of, like Donald Trump. He acts like he's this big, tough alpha guy, and then he puts his name on buildings, his face on buildings, his face on passports, coins the Trump cards. But then he picks a fight with a late night comedian, several late night comedians over jokes being told about him. And I do think it's a little strange that he, Donald Trump has been harsher on Jimmy Kimmel than he has on Ghislaine Maxwell. He's had worse things to say about Jimmy Kimmel than Jillian Maxwell. He wished her well in 2020 and kind of like brushes off the questions about pardoning her. It's a very odd thing. It's a very odd use of presidential power to be like, this is the major problem with the country right now. Late night comedians, even though gas prices are over $4 a gallon, it's.
- [40:43]
Antonia Hylton
So I have to ask then. So, you know, you work in this space, you are a comedian and you are Very much in the political fray. I mean, you go to Donald Trump's events. Have you found yourself over the course of the last year, like self censoring, editing a joke? Because, I mean, he, even though it's funny, I guess to laugh at it, he's trying this whole thing again. It's probably actually going to like give Kimmel another boost and bump and add another tail to his career. But like, like he is trying to persecute comedians in this environment.
- [41:14]
Jason Selvig
No. And it's very strange that he's doing that. This is the use of presidential power. It's like, we've got the midterms coming up right now. And he thinks that the biggest issue is late night comedians and building a big ballroom. Like, that's his pitch right now, which is very, very strange. But me personally, like, I don't, I think Donald Trump, he's, he's surrounded by people who are trying to protect his ego, like, more than, than anything. And I think that's funny and I think it should be made fun of. So I don't think it's like this is like a heroic thing. But I think most comedians are looking at this now more with Donald Trump and rolling their eyes at him, being like, we're doing this again. And I think all the polls are showing that the American public kind of feel the same way. They're like, this is what you're doing with your time. We're at war right now and this is what you're doing with your time. It's very, very straight.
- [42:03]
Antonia Hylton
Well, it did not stop Attorney General Blanche and Kash Patel from coming forward today about a Sea Shout post I know by James Comey, I mean, taking
- [42:13]
Jason Selvig
a picture of that and putting it on there. Meanwhile, there were right wing pundits who had 86, 46 and posted that before. And I don't know, are they going to go after them too for threats against Joe Biden? I'm not holding my breath for that.
- [42:29]
Antonia Hylton
What do you think it says about who we are as a country right now when you have this story of the sort of comedians under the microscope right now? At the same time, after what happened on Saturday, we have a country like awash in conspiracy theory. And I ask you about those two things in connection because to me it sort of reads as people are trying to escape into these different spaces, whether that is a joke or whether that is like this rejection that the world and our reality could be this crazy, that instead you are going to live with a tinfoil hat on. And I'm curious if you see all these things as connected.
- [43:05]
Jason Selvig
I mean, I think it is all connected with everyone losing their minds a little bit right now. And I think it's, you know, we've gone to a lot of Trump rallies and we talked to people who would say conspiracy theories like JFK junior is alive and well. Sometimes JFK Senior is alive and well. Biden was replaced by a body double. Somebody said Biden was replaced by Jim Carrey.
- [43:24]
Antonia Hylton
The greatest hits.
- [43:25]
Jason Selvig
Yeah, the greatest hits. And. But now I think we're seeing some stuff on the left where it's the jumping to the conclusion of it and then accepting that as fact before seeing the actual facts. And I think that's a little scary because to jump to that conclusion within a few minutes of a news story breaking, that's not healthy. I think you want to take everything in and think about what actually happened and see the facts of it before you jump to a conclusion and say some outlandish conspiracy theory is true. So in a way, it reminds me a little bit of stuff that I've seen at Trump rallies when you see some of the really out there conspiracy theories on the left.
- [44:03]
Antonia Hylton
Soft. Yep. It seems like it's all converging into one crazy mess. Jason Selvig, always good to see you. Thank you.
- [44:10]
Jason Selvig
Thanks for having me.
- [44:11]
Antonia Hylton
All right, we're going to be right back. After.
- [44:17]
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