← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump Escalates Threats on Domestic Force
00:41:32
Trump is planning to replace some regional ICE leaders with Border Patrol officials for a more "aggressive" crackdown, MSNBC Ari Melber reports. John Flannery and Chai Komanduri join to discuss Trump's expanding presidential power.
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- [00:01]
A
Hey, friends, this is Audie Cornish, host of CNN this Morning and the Assignment. And guess what? Every story you care about, every angle you want unpacked is now streaming on cnn. That means you can catch my show or other CNN programming whenever you want on your favorite device. And a subscription also gets you access to exclusive video series and unlimited articles. So subscribe to CNN@CNN.com subscription.
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B
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C
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B
Love the way you look.
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C
Men's warehouse. Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber, and we are covering Donald Trump's efforts to test or abuse federal powers. He made an unusual address to American soldiers overseas. You may recall the many lectures that have been delivered by politicians, often in the Republican Party, about how politics must stop at the water's edge. Take a listen to yourself about how the president sounded, discussing things like his politicized crackdown on what he says are the problems that are only in certain places, basically cities run by the opposition party. He has less time and apparently interest in fighting crime and places that happen to be controlled by his fellow Republicans. And then in this, again, unusual address to troops overseas, he issued a type of warning.
- [01:35]
D
We can't have cities that are troubled and we're sending in our National Guard. And if we need more than the National Guard, we'll send more than the National Guard because we're going to have safe cities.
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C
Safe cities. Of course, again, the context is the evidence, not just what politicians say, but what they do. And this politician who is running the United States has been using this type of force only in places run by the opposition party, which is why it has looked so political. Then you hear the words, quote, more than the National Guard. Well, there ain't a lot more than that other than soldiers or tanks or military powers. We don't want to speculate, but we are covering the president saying this not in a random musing or even one of his online posts, but to a group of assembled soldiers. There are reports that Trump wants to take more political and personal control over aspects of federal force that aren't usually done this way. He may have lawful authority to do that, but it's at least again, unusual, going at the regional leadership of ICE and Border Patrol and looking for those who would go into those spots and be more aggressive in their approach. A DHS Veteran official, but telling us that the mentality is they do what they're told and the administration thinks ICE isn't getting the job done, so they will do it. Now, again, there is what is allowed and then there is what is good policy or not. As for what is allowed, it may very well be the president is currently testing how much the courts will allow him to take more personal control over more aspects of the government, control over doj, reaching down into different parts of these agencies. And then there's the whether this is good or not, that's what elections are about. We'll have one in November. Because a lot of Americans, according to the polling, have looked at what is happening on the immigration crackdown and they find it to be too much, too aggressive, too unfocused, not targeting violent criminals, but instead mothers who've been here for a decade. And so it is telling that the administration thinks they haven't gone far enough. Now, there's also this discussion of an accusation about using. I'm going to show you this excessive force. Now, this was filmed with the tear gas being distributed in Chicago. The some of the video is, is difficult, of course, to follow. That's because it is some of it has just come about and citizen made. But you can see some of it here. We want you to see with your own eyes what went down. There's an alleged violation here of a judge's order. It bans agents from deploying gas on protesters. A judge ordered them to appear in court for daily updates. And this is striking because it has to do with the belief by the judge that maybe there isn't real compliance and they need to exercise more oversight. This is about immigration agents wearing body cameras. Axios notes that the president's asserting the right to unilaterally use the military wherever, whenever, and be the sole judge and jury of his own actions. The only real limit on Trump now appears, in his view to be, quote, Trump himself. I want to bring in Che Koman Duri, political strategist, veteran of the Obama campaign and a former federal prosecutor and congressional counsel. John Flannery. Welcome to both of you. Hi, Che. I tried to word this as accurately as possible. There are things that may be very unpopular which are allowed, unusual, but allowed. And that is what Trump is testing, I should mention, not only in immigration, but in other areas. He's got a big fight at the Fed over whether he can take that power or not. And it may be that this Supreme Court allows it and it's unpopular. Then there are things that are clearly Completely out of bounds, unlawful. Like telling troops abroad maybe he'll come forward and ask them to patrol and do wartime activities against the American people. Now I was careful to say he said if, but if he does, that's out of bounds. How do you view and make sense of all of this on that spectrum?
- [05:35]
E
Well, it's been a very much like a kind of a slow authoritarian creep by Trump. You know, they have been fairly selective. They have been moving in a slow but deliberate manner. It's sort of like the vampires in the movie Sinners where you know, mild spoilers for that movie, you know, for the first half of the film. You know, life is continuing as it's as normal even though the vampires are out there, they're hurting people and then suddenly they're at your doorstep. And that's kind of the way authoritarians move. That's kind of the way authoritarians work. But it's important for everyone to be reminded that just because life appears to be normal, you know, we're all watching the World Series, we're watching Steelers, packers, you know, that doesn't mean that life actually is normal. We have masked agents abducting people off the streets. We have a DOJ that is going after the President's enemies. We have a ballroom being built at taxpayers expense while there is a government shutdown and government workers cannot receive their paychecks. None of this is normal. And just because it appears to be normal doesn't mean it is, John.
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D
Well, you know, the thing about this is the description of what is going on, his lie in this case. And there's always a lie at the heart of whatever he's doing. His lie is that he gives a damn about policing the people and keeping them safe from violence. The number of people present, as this recovering federal prosecutor would observe, who are put there to take care of the crimes are not enough. 200 people, 100 people.
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E
What?
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D
Why are they there then?
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C
Why are they there if it's not a reality patrol? It's important point. Go ahead.
- [07:15]
D
Yeah, to provoke. To provoke and to get the film that they want. And instinctively or by design, the people in the various locations which are Democrats, are wearing costumes and so forth, making ridiculous what they do. And the officers who are untrained and unprofessional, even in their propaganda, even in their violence, don't know how to accomplish it. And so you see them actually provoking it. We see them throwing gas and stuff like that, and they think they're holding their constituency together.
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E
Why?
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C
Well, and if I may, I'll let you finish. We can't get inside the mind of every single agent. There may be some there who, as you describe and the judge is concerned, are being provocative with tear gas. There may be others who are assigned there for the day and are standing there going, why am I here? I mean, again, if you go down the line of each one, I will say your account is consistent with what the judge reprimanded at least their, their leader for.
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D
Right? And you know, when the people are on the ground and coming there with mercenary bounties to do what they're doing and wearing masks and acting like thugs, these are the people we should be arrest. And the powers for police that are necessary don't exist here, aside from the amendments of the Constitution that reserve to the states the police power, which is not compromised in those places, if you look at the statistics over the years. So what do we have? We have a president who is having an army in his mind, though still small, to take care of us domestically for what? The election, Control over the people. He's adventuring into South America and may, without a pledge from the Congress to authorize a war, go forward with a war there, because that's who he is. You know, cowards always do this kind of thing. You take a person who as a kid had a fist fight, they're going to be reserved about going into any war legitimately. This guy who has no experience in any way did what he could to avoid any service that might have put him at risk, is prepared to put anybody at risk because he thinks they're all losers. He tells them what he thinks they need to hear when he's prepared to punish them at every turn and does. And as soon as they say anything truthful and disloyal, say, say there was a Kerry, as was true in the Vietnam War, who came forward now and said, you know what's really going on? This guy would be crushed like that because we already have an authoritarian government and we don't have people fighting back. It's no accident that Kennedy's book Profiles and Courage is such a thin book because there have been so few heroes in our American history. And now when we're challenging some of our basic views, the equality of people before the law, equal justice based on color, based on origin, based on religion, all these differences, we can't tolerate differences because these people are feared to have anything except an all white government and anybody else be damned.
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C
Well, look, that's John's view. I'll mention we Che, as you know, we've had borders, our Tom Homanon, we have a lot of different views. John is very clear in his. And if it sounds, it may sound harsh, but I will put forward, as we do around here, Che, the evidence. John is making his argument. Here's some of the evidence. This is an independent judge orders the daily meetings here with border Patrol, with the local leader, Bovino, because of the way the Chicago immigration enforcement's going, and the judge basically admonishing the government here. Those kids were tear gassed on their way to celebrate Halloween in the school parking lot, says this federal judge, Judge Ellis. I can only imagine how terrified they were, these kids, their sense of safety shattered on Saturday, of course, this weekend. And it's going to take a long time for that to come back, if ever. And so, Che, that's some of what's happening. Whether or not every agent there intended that or was involved in that, the judge is saying the buck stops in this case with the local leader in charge. And they got to go daily. And they may have to wear now a body camera. The level of oversight the judge wants, because the concern is one, this was a feature, not a bug, and two, the body camera, because they don't believe that these Trump officials are telling the truth in court.
- [11:33]
E
Yeah, I mean, it's all very disturbing and none of it should have ever been allowed to happen, but it is happening. And I would say that there is a significant and serious pushback in the country. I mean, we had a no kings protest that brought out 7 million people to say in America, we don't have kings. When Donald Trump tried to do something that really did touch upon people's normal lives, like censoring and getting rid of Jimmy Kimmel, you saw the pushback. You saw the blowback because they were really ferocious. Yeah, I mean, you know, people were canceling their Disney subscriptions and Disney got the memo, Sinclair got the memo, and they corrected course. I mean, that is the kind of sustained effort that you need to see more of and would be more successful if we can do it on a more repeated, constant basis. One thing I'll also say that has worked is portraying yourself as the rebel and portraying Donald Trump as the man. I think that's like one of the reasons Jimmy Kimmel succeeded. You know, Jimmy Kimmel was Ferris Bueller and Donald Trump was the high school principal. You know, it really sort of put a face on the idea of authoritarianism in American life. You know, I've been watching Zoron's ads in New York, and one of the things he says is, you know, I'm up against Cuomo and the billionaires. You know, he's the rebel. And Cuomo and the billionaires, they are the man. That sort of speaks to this anti establishment moment that we're in, because we are right now in a moment where the establishment is very much authoritarian or, or really wants to be authoritarian.
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C
Really striking point. And you're sort of weaving together Che, the substance with the actual political argument. Are you, are you over here just complaining? Not, not to minimize it, but that's how it can come across to busy people with their own lives, or are you just kind of giving the man, as you said, or the system hell, because the system's not working on a number of fronts. And then some of those other important points come into it. I want to show you both what Rachel Maddow said, and I think if viewers haven't seen this, it's worth hearing. And we're gonna run that and get your response when we're back with our same panel. In 90 seconds.
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E
The American people and institutions in this country get a say into how far he's going to be able to go. And sometimes protest is the most important lever in determining what institutions and powerful people themselves are willing to do, regardless.
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C
Of what Trump wants. Rachel, discussing the interplay between the rules and pressure over here, call that America or civil society. And what Trump wants, right, he may want to rule forever. He may want to have soldiers be his personal police force. And so in a time where his own party and other levers aren't stopping necessarily what he wants, the question is, what's over here? Well, tonight we can report the law is still over here. The Constitution is the baseline of everything. It is what, for example, includes a limit, with no exceptions, on presidents serving only two terms, never three, only two. And while Trump has talked about wanting more, we have news tonight where the Republican speaker of the House, who has warmed and helped Trump on many, many things, is out loud saying where the law limits Trump's power. Take a look.
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D
I would. I would.
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C
I would love to do it.
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D
You know, I have my best numbers ever. It's very terrible. I have my best numbers.
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F
Well, there is the 22nd amendment. I think the president knows, and he and I have talked about the constrictions of the Constitution as much as so many the American people lament that. I don't see the path for that.
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C
The speaker knows. The Constitution has no path for that. For GOP Speaker Johnson, as we do around here sometimes on facts and law, the legal fact Check. True. There is no path in any way for Donald Trump to rule past 2028 under the Constitution. Let's hear that again.
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F
I don't see the path for that.
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C
No path, no way, no how. I want to bring back Che and John, who are with us, and Che. Fact check. True. And that's just the baseline law. But does it matter that some people in office, including some Republicans, are accurately referring to the Constitution rather than playing games, lying, or softly using their platform to suggest maybe a dictatorship or a coup would be okay?
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E
Yeah. And I think it's actually very telling that they're doing this. I think that you're seeing with Republicans some sense that they have to look beyond Trump. One person who's clearly gotten the memo is Marjorie Taylor Greene. She has been distancing herself from Trump on a number of issues. You're seeing some of the other commentators, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, others, beginning to distance themselves from Trump. You're seeing on the state level the GOP candidate in New Jersey who got Trump's endorsement. He wants nothing to do with Trump. He has hidden very small letters on his website that Donald Trump has endorsed him. Take a magnifying glass. Maybe you can see it. So there is that beginning sense that we have to distance ourselves from Trump. We have to look past Trump. Because contrary to what Trump said in that clip, his numbers are not the best they've ever been. He has been on a steady decline since the inauguration. There has been a slow erosion in his standing and his popularity. It's not as fast or as quick as many people like myself would like, but it is definitely there and it is definitely real.
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C
John, I'm going to play a little bit more of what we saw, because you've heard of a remix, John, where you have a song and then you get the remix. Right, Right, I do.
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D
You might remember, I know such things.
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C
Yeah, there was a Ready or Not, Here I Come. Great soul classic. Then Lauryn Hill and the Fugees, they remixed it. Okay. We are remixing what we just heard because we think it matters. We sit around during the day and think about what we want to do on the news broadcast. I want to make sure people understand that Trump has put people on the Supreme Court and that has affected some things. But even a Trump appointed justice, Justice Barrett basically said the same thing Mike Johnson said, which is the Constitution limits you to two terms, period, end of story. And if they are reckless enough to try to claim that Trump is running in 28, we know legally what will happen. They would try to Put him on a ballot that's obviously illegal and unconstitutional. And so that effort then could go up to the courts. I can tell you right now, lower courts would say off the ballot because you're ineligible, because you're already served your two terms and you could go all the way to the Supreme Court. And so for those trying to wonder, of course, the justices can't say how they would rule on future. On future cases. They're not supposed to. They can refer to the Constitution. And so while I know John is not, I would say, the biggest fan of Barrett you could name in the entire federal bar. Take a look at the remix.
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F
There is the 22nd Amendment.
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G
Really, I can't say anything else, but.
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C
Just point to the 22nd Amendment.
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F
I think the president knows, and he and I have talked about the constrictions of the Constitution as much as so many the American people lament that.
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C
If you ask the question, how many terms a president can serve, I would.
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G
Point to the 22nd amendment.
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F
I don't see the path for that.
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C
John. 22nd amendment shuts the door, right? Is it important that leaders hold the line on not only the law, but making sure the public understands this so that if there is any later effort to lie or coup, people know exactly how illegal it would be?
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D
I think you're so gentle when you say if there's any subsequent instance in which there'd be a lie. It seems to me that Speaker Johnson has had a. What shall we call it, a temporary spinal transplant. And it'll be interesting to see in the next couple of days when Trump comes back from wandering the halls of some Japanese location, if that remains to be his position going forward. I agree with you. There is no question. Two terms and you're out. And with any luck, somebody will actually seek to disqualify him from office for the very admissions that he made to Vice President Pence that was released yesterday.
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C
Credit, credit, however basic it is that Justice Barrett is right. She happens to be appointed by him, but she is publicly saying no.
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D
Yes, I agree. Well, she has had other opinions I've agreed with. It's not a question of presuming that we're always going to have a difference. And she has been. She's shown some differences in her approaches, as Roberts has, too. Although my general objection would continue that the Gang of Six, if you will, is compromising the very question, perhaps in the Future on 22 May amendment. Because if it goes from the lower courts, which have seemed to have been able to read and to protect and preserve the Constitution. And then it gets to the middle courts and the Supreme Court. We had a very different reality which sort of fits the wealthy versus we community politicians. And it also says the balance between the wealthy and the middle class and the poor class. That contract has been broken by this guy because he doesn't believe in equality. That's, that's a large part of his problem. I went beyond your question.
- [21:15]
C
No, you both speak clearly. I feel educated. I hope people listening feel educated because you've spoken to the law, the politics and the strange times we're in. Before we go on a lighter note, John always looking his best, like he could be practicing. He could go from this TV interview right to court with the beautiful books behind you. I'd like you to give some sartorial input to Che. Do you think that his casual look works or would you recommend a bow tie for him?
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D
Oh, I think it's perfect for him. I think it looks good on him.
- [21:45]
C
California cat.
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D
Yes, but this is my talisman so I don't get angry when somebody crashes and burns in front of me and says, don't you believe in that? And I, instead of saying something more terrible like I said, no, I don't agree with that.
- [21:58]
C
Jay, I don't know if you have a pop culture movie reference for this, but the clothes can matter. The Ocean 13 outfit that I think you're kind of giving a reboot to. Ocean 12, Ocean 11, what have you. It got John's vote.
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E
Yes.
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D
Comfortable.
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C
Yeah.
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E
And I, I love the fact that John does wear that bow tie because it's a reminder that John is an old school small R Republican. You know, back when I was a.
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C
Kid, very small R. Never, never. Well, he means like an anti federalist, like a. Yeah, yeah.
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E
Someone who believes in our Constitution. I mean, I remember George Will used to have the bow tie on on Sunday mornings and he made some very eloquent, smart arguments about our Constitution that I took very seriously as a liberal, you know, and it should also be pointed out that Tucker Carlson had the bow tie, dropped the bow tie and became what he is now.
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C
So, you know what, and if you go back far, by the way, news trivia, John Tucker Carlson used to at one time anchor the 6pm Eastern hour on MSNBC, where we reside now. And maybe he needs one of your bow ties. Send one over to him. John and Che, thank you both. I want to tell folks what's coming up. Michael McFaul, the Obama diplomat and MSNBC analyst, will join us by the end of the hour. He's got some big picture thoughts about diplomacy today. The era of so called strongmen and his new book Speaker Johnson under new attacks from the right today and a clash turning into reality when you look at how the shutdown matters. We have that story with our friend Molly Zhang fast next. Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast. I'm Gabe Wiedman. I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables? Can I drink the water at the hospital?
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H
My landlord plays the trombone and I.
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C
Can'T ask him to stop. You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
- [24:19]
I
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- [25:09]
C
The government has now been shut down about a month, technically 28 days. Republicans are in control. They have the White House and Congress. Shutdowns usually go to the party in power and if they last too long and people get upset, they hold the party in power responsible. But we are in strange times and precedent doesn't always determine what's going to happen. We aren't seeing much of a breakthrough when it comes to the negotiating position. And so whatever you think of the politics, which is where it starts in D.C. we can report as we try to do around here on the evidence, which is having the federal government shut down and in this sort of limited mode for a month is affecting real people. Food assistance is seeing longer lines. Federal workers are going weeks without pay. And remember, whatever you think of the people in the federal workforce, they affect our lives, our flights, our national security, and just not getting them paid for a long time, only to pay them again later. Because politicians couldn't figure this out is not the best way to retain them or their morale. Meanwhile, whether you're one of them or not, about 40 million people in the United States get some kind of food benefits. They used to call them food stamps. They're now called snap. But they're going to face a tough holidays as the program is going to run out of money. I mentioned what's already happened. This is what's going to happen. Three days from now, 40 million people will be without that food assistance heading into Thanksgiving. Here is Speaker Johnson.
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F
One of the reasons that this shutdown has not yet been as painful as it might otherwise have been is because the President is bent over backwards. The administration, they've done some creative, amazing things to mitigate, to lessen the pain as much as possible.
- [26:53]
C
Speaker Johnson thinks that they are creatively lessening the pain for regular people. Well, on food assistance, actually, the President is refusing to tap funds that are available. It's called a contingency fund. It could be used in exactly this scenario. And it's got billions of dollars which could do a patch for those people. The idea being that while other things might be worth cutting back on until they reopen the government, having kids not being able to eat isn't one of them. Dozens of states are now suing, saying the cuts aren't fair. They're going to reopen the government someday. We know that this isn't like a budget cut. Sooner or later they'll reopen the government. They'll free up the food funds. But why should, and I don't usually speak this starkly, but it's literally the question, why should American children go hungry until then? And that's not the only federal program that affects the young. You've heard of Head Start and early child care. They are now at risk as the funding that lasted for these 28 days will also run out. Now, if preschoolers don't move you, I don't know what will. But maybe you don't want your flight home to be late for Thanksgiving. Does that matter more? Well, that's also affected thousands of flights now delayed because we have limited air traffic controllers. They are required by law to work without pay. But if the shutdown draws into the second month, some have to take second jobs to make money before again, when the government reopens, many will soon return to being full time traffic controllers. Others are calling in sick and then driving Uber. It's not logical. It's not good for air travel. Safety, and it's probably not good for you if you plan on flying anytime over the holidays. Trump and Johnson say they are lessening the pain. Not everyone is toeing the party line anymore. Some Republicans have been hearing from people in red states who still don't like the flight problems or the preschool problems or the absence of food funding. We had a reference earlier by our colleague Che Kominduri here saying that some Republicans are turning away from Trump. He cited mtg and she's ripping her colleagues over this issue, reportedly on a private call today. Whether that goes public soon, we may hear in every state and in many smaller parts of America, red, blue, purple, whatever, people who are running into this problem, which again will end because the politicians will eventually reopen the government. So all of this pain is quite literally avoidable. And some are speaking out.
- [29:22]
J
I'm only down to one pack of chicken and I don't even know what I'm going to do for the next months.
- [29:27]
C
One word to describe how you're feeling right now.
- [29:29]
E
Stressful.
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C
That's what it feels like, is that we're being punished for needing the assistance or needing the help.
- [29:34]
J
I just hope and pray that they don't shut it down because a lot of people, and I and a lot of mothers that are really dependent on the SNAP benefits, my son won't have his milk and we won't have food. I'll go without eating or anything as long as my kids eat.
- [29:52]
C
These are real people. These are real problems. They are avoidable. In Washington, we hear about red and blue and politics and ideology, and we cover plenty of that around here, too. But if the politics don't move everyone, maybe the people will. What do you call it when some of the most powerful individuals in the country can't get together and get something solved to help those people you heard there who are feeling very powerless right now? We have Molly Zhang fast here when we return.
- [30:28]
H
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- [30:56]
I
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- [31:24]
A
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- [31:58]
J
I'm only down to one pack of chicken and I don't even know what I'm going to do for the next months.
- [32:02]
C
One word to describe how you're feeling right now, Stressful. That's what it feels like, is that we're being punished for needing the assistance or needing the help.
- [32:09]
J
I just hope and pray that they don't shut it down because a lot of people and I and a lot of mothers that are really dependent on the SNAP benefits, my son won't have his milk and we won't have food. I'll go without eating or anything as long as my kids eat.
- [32:27]
C
Real people speaking out. We're joined by Molly Zhang, fast from New York Times opinion. We see it there. You can cover this from many angles, but it's about to start hitting real people with food assistance, which is 40 million people, right?
- [32:39]
G
And food assistance. I just want to point out again, like this is the richest cabinet in the world, right? This is the richest cabinet the American government has ever had. Billionaires, hundred millionaires. These people do not, you know, they do not live in the same universe as these women. And so that's part of why I think this is so egregious. I also want to say, like these health care premiums, November 1st is when they start skyrocketing. So remember Democrats had wanted to keep funding these Obamacare subsidies so that insurance didn't go up 20, 30, 40%. These are going to start happening on November 1st. So we are seeing these real world effects. And remember Donald Trump said, he said, remember the weave with bacon? He said, I'm going to make things cheaper. You should vote for me because I'm going to make Things cheaper. So what is all of this doing? Right. The health.
- [33:32]
C
The weave is just a funny reference about it, a rather serious topic.
- [33:36]
G
Right. Which is he would talk about how he's going to make things cheaper. Right. He'd talk about bacon, he'd talk about eggs. He'd. He'd do the weave. But in the end it was. People are hurting because of inflation. So now here we have these healthcare subsidies which will expire, which means that healthcare will get much more expensive and people will be thrown off healthcare. Then we have a government that's deciding not to fund snap, for example, there have been other shutdowns where they have funded snap. And this was a choice. The administration made a choice not to fund snap.
- [34:08]
C
And the money is there right now.
- [34:09]
E
That's right.
- [34:10]
C
Contingency and emergency funds are as defined by the ruler.
- [34:14]
G
Yeah.
- [34:14]
C
Here the ruler has fake emergencies to send troops in. And the courts say that's not a real emergency. American starving.
- [34:21]
G
Yeah.
- [34:21]
C
Kids not eating or having to choose whether the parent or the child eats, which is what we reported. There feels like an emergency in that household. And I want to play more. From what we're hearing, you know, we live in a different world now. People can share their stories much easier online. And so some of this is on platforms of TikTok. Take a look.
- [34:40]
G
Our president was just seen dancing in Malaysia while we're in the midst of a government shutdown.
- [34:44]
C
Some of us are going to food banks. The government should be embarrassed. That's what my TSA agent said this morning.
- [34:51]
G
People can't afford to feed their families.
- [34:52]
C
They can't afford to pay their bills.
- [34:53]
G
They can't afford their medicines.
- [34:55]
C
And now there are no SNAP benefits. What is the point of coming together as a society, as a civilization, funding a government, if not so everybody can eat.
- [35:04]
G
Yeah. And I think none of this is popular. I mean, this is the problem with Trumpism is like this. He's pulling underwater on the economy, on immigration, like, the numbers are bad. And now he's taking away more stuff from people. And, you know, he hasn't made things cheaper because of the tariffs. So we're seeing, you know, I just don't understand. And then we have Mike Johnson out there and he's saying, you know, like, we did what we could, but we can't do. You know, we don't know what we can do. You control the House, the Senate, the presidency. You can do whatever you want. And the reality is a lot of Democrats are anxious about making deals with Mike Johnson because they know what Annie Carney Reported this weekend in the New York Times, which is that Donald Trump considers himself to really be the speaker of the House. So making a deal with Mike Johnson may not mean anything.
- [35:53]
C
Oh, absolutely. And he, look, he's gonna own this sooner or later. Some Republicans think in the short run they can just play blame. And it's hard to do in red states where we have millions of people on this type of food assistance. But that's context for this Alabama Republican. Take a look.
- [36:07]
E
Yeah.
- [36:10]
C
By the Democrats getting a little bit tight right now. It's their constituents, a lot of them, that in some of these inner cities, that they're going to need SNAP to survive, and they're getting a lot of calls and the pressure is going to be put on them. A lot of people need to go back to work. A lot of, A lot of young men that are on snap, that should be working. One fact check, and I'll let you respond. We don't use the shutdown to change federal policy. So if you think that there are too many young men in Alabama who are sitting around getting food assistance is not going to work, then you could try to change that policy. Because what he knows, and maybe he's playing dumb, playing ignorant, is when the government reopens, all these policies kick back in.
- [36:52]
G
Right.
- [36:53]
C
And that's what I think has angered some of the people who are, who know about this, is you say, oh, but in six weeks, the food will come back. But, but you've had to go through this, what, what one woman called punishment for no logical reason.
- [37:04]
G
Well, that was Tommy Tuberville, who is arguably you. I'm going to say, I don't think he's playing dumb, but, you know, maybe.
- [37:13]
C
I've been trying to be real generous. Flannery earlier today said I was being intellectually generous. I'm trying to be fair.
- [37:19]
G
I think you're being generous.
- [37:20]
C
Okay.
- [37:21]
G
But yes, the, the whole notion that this is about something other than Donald Trump, not, you know, he runs the government. The last, the last longest shutdown we had was the last time it was the Republicans, you know, controlling. So I, I think that this is gonna, I think when people in red states start to feel the heat, the elected, they will come to Trump and they'll have to tell him, I mean, some of these people are going to have to run for election again.
- [37:50]
C
Yeah, well put. As always, as we try to look at also how this affects people again, we're three days out from that. That's going to be a big inflection point in the shutdown. Molly Jong, fast, thanks as always. Coming up, the White House renovated or destroyed. Questions are why are there troops in the street? Why are parts of your government buildings falling down? Ambassador Michael McFaul.
- [38:19]
B
Just like Clinton said back in 1992, it's the economy, stupid. That was kind of the bumper sticker for our aid in Russia. And I think we made a big mistake in that, in not putting more into political assistance to the development of rule of law, the development of civil.
- [38:35]
C
Society, rule of law and civil society. Important things said. You might recognize a young Michael McFaul. He was speaking about the decline of those basic civil aspects abroad. But as we see destruction here of our own public government buildings without so much as a democratic process or real review, or even more seriously, a president who calls for political enemies or opponents as he views them to be indicted. And then they are, there are increasing comparisons between what the US Used to fight abroad and what Donald Trump and parts of the Republican Party are welcoming here at home. There are comparisons, of course, to Putin, who is a more murderous thug in all sorts of ways. And so it can almost seem like too great of a contrast. And yet it is a blueprint and a playbook that many see, in part, Donald Trump pursuing. With that in mind, we are joined by the aforementioned Michael McFaul. He was President Obama's pick for the very crucial position of ambassador to Russia, and he has a new book out today, which is why we're thrilled to welcome him to the beat. Autocrats versus Democrats, China, Russia, America and the New Global Disorder. Congratulations and welcome.
- [39:51]
B
Well, thanks for having me. And thanks for showing the book.
- [39:54]
C
The book and the young you and the young man.
- [39:56]
B
I haven't seen that clip for a long, long time. I don't know if I've ever seen that clip 25 years ago, talking about some things that echo our times here in America.
- [40:04]
C
Yeah, we hear these words, rule of law, civil society. Sometimes you don't know what they mean until they're endangered. Right now you have people who think of themselves as independent business persons checking with the federal government and specifically the Trump administration before they hire and fire or whether they could do a merger. You have Jimmy Kimmel very close to canceled, as mentioned on tonight's program. Unless there was backlash. What parallels do you see in what you what you've lived as a diplomat abroad and the warning signs here?
- [40:36]
B
There definitely are parallels. In fact, In February of 2017, I wrote a piece in the Washington Post comparing what I thought might happen in the first Trump administration to the early years of Putin not today, like you rightly pointed out. And it didn't happen in that first term. But I see a lot of parallels today. And you just pointed out several of them. So Putin first told all the oligarchs, he said, you gotta play by my side. I'll cut your taxes, I'll be good for you, but you gotta support me. Does that sound familiar? Second, using not the rule of law, but rule by law to persecute his enemies. He did that in the early years. And then third, he redistributed property rights to take control of independent media. They didn't have as much as us, and that's a big plus we have compared to them. But he did that first. And then when he didn't like some comedians, there was this very famous show called Kukli and he. Puppets is how you translate that. Really, really funny show, by the way. They made fun of everyone, Ari. They would have made fun of you and me.
- [41:35]
C
They made fun of the media, but.
- [41:37]
B
They also made fun of Putin. And particularly, I think they made some jokes about his height and he pulled him off the air, but there was no pushback and they stayed off the air. So you see these parallels, and they're disturbing to me.
- [41:51]
C
The reporting shows that the Trump folks are happy with much of this. The Journal, which is owned by Murdoch, says inside the Trump White House now, advisers joke they're ruling Congress with an iron fist. Bannon likens Congress to the Russian Duma.
- [42:09]
B
Well, there you go. Another parallel, and that happened in the early Putin years where the parliament just became a rubber stamp for whatever Putin did. And if they dared to do something different, they would be punished. You see that, and that is dangerous. And then the last thing down the road, not right away, but there was this horrific terrorist attack in Russia in 2004. Beslan, a school was attacked, and Putin used that terrorist attack to get rid of elections for governors. Now, we haven't gotten there, but there were lots of people talking about when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, that we had to have more controls over this, that and the other. Thankfully, it hasn't happened. And remember, there's some things that are different, too. So one is when Russia was rolling, when Putin was rolling back democracy in Russia, Russians had only had a few years of democratic experience. We've got 250 years. The last big protests were called no kings on purpose. That goes way back to 1776. Big advantage we have over them. And two, the institutions, the independent institutions, the checks and balances, civil society, independent media, opposition party like it to be stronger in my view than it is today. But we have an opposition party, governors, even some aspects of the private sector, they are independent of our president today. And I wish they pushed back more, but they are pushing back. You didn't see that in Putin's Russia.
- [43:33]
C
So let's broaden out to the whole globe with the 90 seconds left. Why are these so called strongmen making such a resurgence around the world?
- [43:43]
B
Three reasons. One, the autocrats have more power. So China and Russia compared to 30 years ago, they just have more power. They can do more things. Two, there is democratic erosion in some countries that used to be democratic. Russia's one of them, Turkey's one of them. They flipped. But three, and I would say most importantly has been the erosion of democracy in the old liberal democracies, especially our own. And when we are divided at home, when we're polarized at home, we're weaker. When it comes to dealing with the.
- [44:14]
C
Autocrats abroad, it's important stuff. You make it very clear and you have walked the walk, as they say. I'm gonna put the book up on the screen. I encourage folks to check it out if you're interested, of course, Ambassador McFau as a MSNBC analyst for us, but a decorated diplomat. The book Autocrats versus Democrats, brand new, out today. We'll be right back. Donald Trump yet again trolled the media.
- [44:39]
E
By refusing to rule out running for an illegal third term, which he can't.
- [44:43]
C
Do because it's against the Constitution. And if there's one thing we know.
- [44:46]
E
About the man, it's that he respects the sanctity of documents.
- [44:50]
D
He says he hasn't thought about it, but of course we know he's thought about it because he already has the merch.
- [44:59]
C
It's so weird to make a hat for a thing that can't happen. Wearing a Trump 2028 hat is like.
- [45:03]
E
Wearing a hat that says Super Bowl.
- [45:05]
C
Champion New York jets and can't happen. Comics get the last word tonight.
- [45:12]
H
Are you curious about the hidden side of everything? Then I have a podcast for you. I'm Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio. Each week we hear from some of the most fascinating scholars and thinkers as we tackle big topics like how whales became the face of environmental activism, how to succeed at failing, and whether public transportation should be free. Go ahead, listen to Freakonomics Radio wherever you get your podcasts.