Trump Faces GOP Defections Over Epstein and Boat Strikes

Summary

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The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump Faces GOP Defections Over Epstein and Boat Strikes
Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

On this special election night, Ari Melber tackles a tumultuous period in the Trump administration’s second term. Key topics include growing Republican defections from Trump over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case and a controversial U.S. military boat strike in the Caribbean, both of which raise questions about legal, ethical, and political conduct. The episode delves into deep economic anxieties, the president’s health and acuity, intense partisan infighting on Capitol Hill, and new investigations into Trump’s contradictory positions on drug policy.

Melber is joined by veteran Democratic strategist James Carville, Rep. Adam Smith (D-WA, ranking member on Armed Services), and legal analyst Ankush Khardori to break down these unfolding crises.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Special Election in Tennessee & Republican Vulnerability

[00:33 – 04:41]

• Tennessee holds a special House election in a deep-red district Trump won by 22 points, but GOP is “sweating” over a possible loss or slim win – a striking shift.
• The tight race reflects national doubts about Republican leadership in light of Trump’s mounting troubles and the Democrats’ recent electoral sweep.

Notable Quote:

• "Republicans are, quote, sweating either a close result or even potentially losing the seat. That's how the Washington Post and Politico both described it." — Ari Melber [01:32]

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2. Trump’s Weakening Political Position: Epstein, War Strikes, and the Economy

[04:41 – 05:03]

• Trump faces major backlash for minimizing and defending a sex trafficker (Epstein) and refusing promised transparency, leading to open revolt among previously loyal GOP members.
• Public polling shows Trump’s approval plummeting from 47% at the start of the year to 36% (Gallup), set against ongoing concerns about inflation.

Notable Quote:

• "Hundreds of Washington Republicans... revolted against Trump over his probably biggest political vulnerability and oddest charge that he's faced in this whole first year of the term." — Ari Melber [02:20]

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3. Carville on Affordability, Political "Gravity," and Tennessee

[06:07 – 08:11]

• Carville delivers trademark bluntness, skewering Trump's denial of economic strife and the narrative that affordability concerns are a “Democratic hoax.”
• "How can you solve a problem that you say doesn't exist?" — James Carville [06:14]
• Notes the unique significance of the TN-7 race, likening its potential upset to a Civil War moment for the GOP.
• Draws parallels to his famous 1992 slogan: “It’s the economy, stupid,” underscoring that economic realities always catch up with politicians.

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4. GOP Infighting and Speaker Trouble

[11:16 – 13:14]

• GOP Speaker Johnson is accused by fellow Republicans of being weak and allowing Democrats to strip critical security provisions.
• GOP infighting is rampant, and Carville notes:
  • "The finger pointing is already starting... Let's blame Mike Johnson, let's blame this. Let's Blame John film. Let's blame somebody, but let's not blame the guy in charge." — James Carville [12:25]
  • Suggests deep divisions will only worsen as election season ramps up.

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5. Concerns Around Trump’s Age, Health, and Late-Night Behavior

[16:13 – 22:16]

• Serious questions arise about President Trump’s mental acuity and health following a mysterious MRI and an erratic spree of 160 late-night Truth Social posts.
• Carville lampoons the lack of transparency, relating it to the intense scrutiny once faced by Biden:
  • "In a nation of 335 million people, you're telling me we can't find somebody under 75 to be president. I just don't believe that." — James Carville [19:15]
  • "Age is an elevator that doesn't have a down button." — James Carville [21:23]
• Melber frames these concerns as nonpartisan matters of public business and succession.

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6. Caribbean Boat Strikes and Alleged War Crime

[23:32 – 33:37]

• A deadly U.S. airstrike on a Caribbean boat allegedly involved a second strike on shipwrecked survivors, potentially constituting a war crime under U.S. and international law.
• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth evades responsibility, blaming the operational admiral.
  • "We always have the back of our commanders... and we do in this case and all these strikes, they're making judgment calls." — Hegseth [24:59]
• Rep. Adam Smith lays out Congressional investigation priorities:
  • Need for clarification on orders, legal justification, transparency.
  • "If Pete Hegseth didn't say 'kill everyone', what were the rules of engagement...?" — Rep. Smith [28:27]
  • Criticizes Trump’s willingness to wield military power with little accountability.
• Smith expands on Trump’s worldview and pattern of aggrandizing presidential authority:
  • "He wants the power... a 19th-century way of looking at the world.... That's why he's talking about turning Canada into the 51st state..." [31:18]
• The law of war is cited: firing on survivors is a “clear-cut war crime.”

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7. Trump’s Drug Policy Contradictions: Blowing Up Boats & Pardoning Drug Lords

[33:39 – 39:13]

• Trump uses military force against alleged drug traffickers in the Caribbean while concurrently pardoning major convicted traffickers, including former Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez.
• Melber highlights the hypocrisy:
  • "Trump is freeing people who dealt drugs, which is a nasty, dirty business… Then you have all the people, of course, who were more directly MAGA fans who attacked police violently on January 6th." [38:31]
• Legal analyst Ankush Khardori contextualizes the pardons as abuse of power and a direct affront to law enforcement:
  • "This is really sort of out there and it really makes a mockery of the stated policy in Central and South America." — Khardori [37:13]
  • Suggests Trump is fundamentally opposed to heads of state being held legally accountable.

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8. Epstein Files, Congressional Push for Transparency

[40:09 – 43:45]

• A new law, forced through by a bipartisan coalition, now legally compels the Trump DOJ to release more Epstein financial records and related evidence.
• Melber explains the dual pressure: survivors’ courage and rare cross-party alliances (Reps. Khanna and Massie).
• "The main thing, though, that the survivors want... is to understand: which other rich and powerful men went to Epstein's Rape Island, which other men engaged in the trafficking of these girls." — Ari Melber [41:15]
• Rep. Khanna previews possible legal actions if DOJ stonewalls, setting up showdown with the administration.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Carville on the GOP’s predicament:
  "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. I would add a third to that. Close would count in Tennessee 7." [06:30]
• On Trump’s disconnect:
  "He tells a bunch of sycophants in the Cabinet room that [the economy is] not an issue. And people see that and it's going to hurt him more." — Carville [08:20]
• On presidential age:
  "Age is an elevator without a down button. You can only stay the same temporarily or you go, and you're going to go up. There's no getting around it, I promise you." — Carville [21:23]
• Rep. Adam Smith, on rules of engagement:
  "Do we now have the death penalty for drug dealers? And oh, by the way, no due process, no probable cause." [28:50]
• On war crimes:
  "Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal." — Law of War Manual as cited by Melber [29:57]
• Ankush Khardori on pardons:
  "We have seen a pretty rampant abuse, I would say, of the pardon power in less than a year of Trump's second term here." [39:13]

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:33] — Main episode begins, Tennessee special election stakes
• [04:41] — Trump’s polling drop, economic woes, and GOP revolts
• [06:07] — Carville on economic reality and TN-7
• [11:16] — GOP House infighting, role of Speaker
• [16:13] — Questions about Trump’s health/late-night posting
• [23:32] — Boat strike controversy, legality, Pentagon reactions
• [28:03] — Rep. Adam Smith on oversight, administration stonewalling
• [33:39] — Epstein case follow-up, implications for Trump and DOJ
• [35:12] — Trump’s drug policy hypocrisy: pardons vs. strikes
• [37:13] — Legal analysis of pardons, law enforcement impact
• [40:09] — Congressional action on Epstein files, justice for survivors

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Tone and Style Notes

• Direct, unflinching political analysis suffused with urgency and at times biting wit (particularly from Carville).
• Melber emphasizes accountability and context, often invoking journalistic and legal perspectives.
• Guests employ a mix of firsthand experience, institutional memory, and legal knowledge for a multi-faceted critique of current events.

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Summary

This episode paints a picture of an embattled Trump administration facing mounting legal, ethical, and political crises—with cracks visible among Republicans, bipartisan calls for government transparency, and a president whose fitness for office is openly questioned. Through sharp analysis and probing interviews, Melber and his guests lay bare both policy contradictions and the underlying stakes for democracy, legal norms, and public trust.

Ideal for listeners seeking a comprehensive, insider-level understanding of the latest in U.S. politics, scandal, and the intersection of law, leadership, and power.

Transcript

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Play for [e-mail] let's chumba no purchase necessary. VGW Group void we're prohibited by law. CTNC's 21 plus sponsored by Chumba Casino. Welcome to Beat Everyone. I'm Ari Melber and it is one of those days even in an off year. If you hear the music, you know it is another election night in America and we have James Carville, the Democratic guru, standing by to get into what we're watching for. So that should be interesting. Tennessee voters are hitting the polls for this special election. It is a House race that in different years might not be that big a deal, but now has huge national implications. Republicans are defending a seat they should by any normal stretch be in a position to win. Indeed, this district went for Trump by 22 points. But what a difference a year makes. Polls show a much tighter race than you would usually see in such ruby red territory. Republicans are, quote, sweating either a close result or even potentially losing the seat. That's how the Washington Post and Politico both described it. Democrats had their big sweep last month. This is a race we will be watching across Ms. Now tonight and for the hours ahead. I can tell you the polls close in two hours. The wider context is that Trump is, of course, in one of the worst periods of this young second term. The Dem sweep which sets the table for tonight was the first of several weeks of bruising bad news for Donald Trump that even if he and the world stepped away for Thanksgiving break, has returned to a similar tough picture. And that's before we know what happens tonight. Hundreds of Washington Republicans, of course, revolted against Trump over his probably biggest political vulnerability and oddest charge that he's faced in this whole first year of the term, where Donald Trump basically went out of his way to repeatedly minimize and defend A sex trafficker refusing the transparency he once vowed and giving lenience to that trafficker's co conspirator. That's just a capsule summary of what Republicans ultimately had to revolt against rather than defend when there was a vote. Top Republicans, though, have not stopped there. It would seem that as we heard from some of our experts during that week, what started wasn't just going to to end because if the emperor had no clothes or whatever phrase you want to use, Republicans found that they did have a voice and most of them didn't face any great consequence or punishment in the real world for standing up to Trump independently once. You might do it twice. Indeed, on some issues, it's quite obvious that Republicans do better running against Trump, even if they worry about his personal vendettas in response. The issue now this week, of course, is the serious questions about how this Trump administration conducts war and whether as experts are questioning whether a war crime has occurred. So people want a lot more answers from Defense Secretary Hegseth. The question about whether he was directly involved overseeing, allowing or directly ordering what would amount to what appears to be, according to experts, a war crime committed in that Caribbean boat strike. Now we have a top Democrat leading the probe who will be with us later tonight. And you've certainly seen some of the big news about this. Republicans also just know, big picture, that Trump is weakening. There's a new poll that finds him cratering to a second term. Low 47% was where he was at the beginning of the year, now crashing to 36 from Gala. Trump also held one of these long cabinet meetings today and he did touch on issues that have dogged Republicans and are certainly in play in the election. I mentioned tonight the high prices, the inflation, the affordability. Polling shows Americans have made up their minds about this and by an overwhelming 2 to 1 margin. That's a margin you don't see on issues like guns or abortion or culture. But two to one people have come together, including a lot of Trump voters, to say, look, he is responsible for the rising prices here. He was today.

[C]

And you know, there's this fake narrative that the Democrats talk about affordability. They just say the word. It doesn't mean anything to anybody. Just say it. Affordability. The word affordability is a con job by the Democrats. Affordability is a hoax that was started by Democrats.

[A]

Where do you even begin? We kept the actual views of the American public up on the screen so you could see that the public paying higher prices doesn't think these are hoax problems. And although not everyone follows every political development. People do generally remember that Donald Trump and the Republicans ran against Biden Harris on inflation and high prices. It was the affordability stupid. Or as our friend James Carville long, long ago said and is often quoted, it's the economy stupid. Because people can't just be lied and spun out of what they're facing. And so amidst all these issues, including some. We'll cover more tonight. I'm going to have more details on that reported potential war crime and more on some Epstein follow up later in the hour. We begin with Donald Trump apparently trying to deny an iron rule of politics. People know how the economy is doing and they will hold you responsible for it. No better way to introduce James Carville, a campaign strategist. He is now saying that when you take it all in, Donald Trump's presidency is all but over. James, your thoughts?

[C]

Well, first of all, gravity is a Democratic hoax. Just see what it is. I mean, of course, it's something that people experience in real time. And when he says it's a hoax, how can you solve a problem that you say doesn't exist? All right. And that's essentially what he's saying. And I mean politically. Yeah. Let's look at Tennessee 7 tonight. You talked about it earlier. You know, there's an old saying that close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. I would add a third to that. Close would count in Tennessee 7. That would get a lot of people's attention in a district that Trump carried by 22 points. I might point out to our Civil War buffs that Franklin, Tennessee is located in the 7th Congressional District. And you don't understand what happened in Franklin in 1864. It wasn't very good for the, for the south, to say the least. So there's a lot of interesting going on right now, Barry. And of course, affordability is real and people experience it every day and every, every interaction they have in commerce.

[A]

As you say, Trump seems like he knows this is a issue, so it affects him however he thinks about it, politically, personally. But he hasn't rounded the circle to look at it seriously, to really address it. I mentioned this briefly. I want to play Karl Rove, the longtime Republican insider talking about you. Take a listen. If the Republicans want to maximize their victories in 2026, they need to have, they need to go back in the wayback machine to 1992 and remember the immortal words of that great strategist James Carville.

[C]

It's the economy, stupid, he said, and.

[A]

You gotta have an agenda that is forward. What are we going to have in.

[C]

The way of pro growth policies that.

[A]

Americans will say, yeah, that'll make my family and my community and my financial prospects better? Is he right? And does that mean we're just asking if you're right, but what do you think there?

[C]

Well, first of all, it's very flattering for him to say that about me. And of course, Carl knows that, and everybody in politics knows that. You can't escape these issues that are every day. I mean, a human being has 20 different interactions with the economy every day. And you have to talk about can't be denied, it can't be escaped. And he tells a bunch of sycophants in the Cabinet room that it's not an issue. And people see that and it's going to hurt him more. I mean, it's ridiculous to call this a Democratic hoax when you see what people are going through. By the way, it cost Harris the election. I think pretty clear that that was a big factor in the Democrats defeat in 2024. I think we learned something from losing. I don't think he learned anything from winning. I mean, somet can. You gotta take a lesson away from winning. And I don't think he took a lesson away. I think we did.

[A]

It's funny when you put it like that. And Trump is famously the reality show star. People know that the pr, but he may be losing a step. We can get into that. Politics is, you're on the field, so you're gonna see how you're doing. On whether he's processing information. I mean, the Atlantic has this piece out, they call him the bubble wrapped president. You mentioned the sycophantic Cabinet. They're thinking along those lines. Everyone around him, everything he sees on TV and his phone is telling him he's right. Poll after poll suggests Americans believe Trump is now getting it wrong. Do you see that reality, the gravity you mentioned on the way into this convo as what's finally separating Trump from this Republican House we heard forever, the narrative was, oh, they're going to go along with anything. And on Epstein, on some economic messaging and perhaps on this ongoing questions about what happened in the ocean, there seems to be more independence.

[C]

Well, first of all, Trump is, I think, 79. I'm 81. And you're not going to win against a jock and tell you I fight as hard as I can. It's ultimately a losing battle. I don't want anybody to be sick. Okay, I'll be very clear about that. But I see all of the stories that everyone else sees. And if you look at this dust up in the Caribbean and you contrast that when President Obama, who Trump, by the way, Trump says he wants to court Marshall for what? Shooting Obama, shooting bin Laden. Look at the professionalism of that and the way it was handled post event compared to this thing in the Caribbean where Pete Hedge this doesn't know anything about it. Trump doesn't know anything about it. No one know anything about everything. In contrast that in 2011 when President Obama in Noble, famously in Oval Office with everybody around Vice President Biden, Hillary Clinton and the Secretary of State and they were all sitting there absorbing it in real time. I mean, I think there's a good contrast and a good lesson for American people to learn here when these kind of operations are carried out, how they're done. I don't want to be a bunch of, I don't know who these people were in this vote, but I knew exactly who bin Laden was and I knew exactly what bin Laden did and I didn't need any convincing that it was the right thing to do.

[A]

Yeah. On, on those tensions, I want to play a little more. Read a little more here from Axios Reporting about the GOP speaker battles. More lies from the speaker is how Republicans put it. They call it a public feud Monday. The weeds of it are Stefanik accuses Johnson of basically getting rolled by Dems because they stripped a provision which would require the FBI to tell Congress when it was opening. These counter intel pros, you know, if we. You want to get into those weeds, James, be my guest. I mean, you're already my guest. I guess it's a redundant statement. But. But I'm curious more about the politics of it where, where they, they're basically turning Mike Johnson back into Kevin McCarthy. I mean it's like if you're a Republican, you've watched how many speakers go down in the MAGA era and maybe people who are against their agenda say okay that's maybe that's better for the country. They don't want to see some of these things passed. But what does it tell you about how, how hard it is Standby the Speaker who I'll remind everyone they just recently picked.

[C]

Well, Stefanika is running for governor of York. She's clearly feeling the heat on every point. And so the finger point, what are we not even at the end of the year yet. The election year hadn't even started and the finger pointing is already starting. I mean that's what that is. Let's blame Mike Johnson, let's blame this. Let's Blame John film. Let's blame somebody, but let's not blame the guy in charge. And that just does not work because people have a tendency to blame the guy in charge. Mike Johnson is a kind of pathetic. Although he's a fellow Louisianan, he's one of the more pathetic characters of this century. And he was put in there because he was compliant and they couldn't find anybody else to do the job. And he's done as bad a job as you ever thought he would do. He could do it now. Stefanika, you're gonna see more and more of them jump on him or blame somebody else who, like I said, we're not even in election here and we're starting to blame Kane.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting. You're putting it in the prism of what, what she's looking out at again, which is, oh, is there reality out there? Yeah. And, and you remind us of that. So I want to continue down the health path and do it responsibly. Longtime Beat viewers will remember we had you on and you were someone who was inside the Democratic Party but was publicly very clear that you had concerns about President Biden at the time. As you know, there's been sort of a different view of history that says nobody ever talked about it. People were afraid of it. I mean, it's a big country. You can find those targets. But we heard you talk about on this program and as my viewers know, we have a lot of people on to get all the perspectives so folks can make up their own mind. Now, the shoe may be on the other foot to some degree. I'm curious what you think of both the substance and the politics of the questions of a president who, for example, last night, I'm going to show people some of this in a second. Fired off over 150 actions online. If a friend of yours did that, you might say, hey, are you okay? Are you crashing out what's going on with the late night Internet posts? And. And this is the president, to say nothing of a few other examples. So James stays. I'm going to show folks exactly what we're talking about and get his view on the acuity questions facing President Trump. Serious business. We'll be back in 90 seconds.

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[A]

We're back with James Carville and I'm going to show viewers some of what's going on in Washington. And this is a story that if anything's been undercovered compared to some of the Biden era, the White House is confronting very serious sort of evidence driven questions about Donald Trump's acuity, his demeanor, and whether these relate to his age or medical condition. As I mentioned in the setup before the break, this is a serious matter that's come up with presidents before, including President Biden, who ultimately didn't run for reelection over those concerns after getting the nomination. Most people remember that. Or Ronald Reagan who ran at an advanced years in his life. The New York Times has reported that there is a question about how Trump is aging in office. That one sign is while you know him from the way he talks when he's at the mic and he's a very voluble performer, there are already fewer public events on his schedule. At a substantive level, we do know the President had an mri. Everyone hopes that he, like anyone in public office, is doing well and getting the best care necessary. The White House says it was a preventive decision. The president was sort of trying to discuss it, but then fairly evasive. And again, if you remember the questions around past politicians in both parties, this is something that voters sometimes want to know more about. How is the president doing? Do we know? Is there medical transparency? So I'm going to show you what he said and some of the response it got from the comics.

[C]

What part of your body was the MRI looking like? I have no idea. It was just an mri. What part of the body? It wasn't the brain because I took a cognitive test and I aced it. I got a perfect mark, which you would be incapable of doing. Goodbye, everybody. You too. It wasn't the brain, okay?

[B]

I did so well on the cognitive.

[A]

They put me in the extra credit tube.

[C]

When they laid you down in a tube for a half an hour to 45 minutes, you didn't want to know what they might be doing or did you just think to yourself, what a loud tanning bed.

[A]

That's the context around his sort of non answer about the MRI or saying where he didn't know exactly what it was for. In the Cabinet meeting today, we're showing you footage here where Donald Trump looked less than alert. We do know that he was up late if he was using Truth Social himself because as I mentioned, after 7pm and heading into midnight, sort of almost up to overnight, he interacted with truth social about 160 times, as you see the headlines say once a minute in what the Daily Beast called an unhinged spree. HuffPo called it a massive unhinged late night posting spree. Whatever you call it, it was unusual late night behavior. We're back with James Carville. Is this, in your view, an issue and what is the way to approach it?

[C]

Well, Jonathan Reiner, who was such a good physician, he kept Dick Cheney alive until he was 84 years old, said today that this makes no sense. The entire story of why he would have an MRI and not know about it, I would refer to Dr. Reiner, who is maybe the most competent cardiolog in the country. But you know, one of the guaranteed lines when I go out and give a speech is, in a nation of 335 million people, you're telling me we can't find somebody under 75 to be president. I just don't believe that. And I think there was such an obsession with President Biden's age leading up to the 2024 election that insufficient coverage was given to President Trump's age, his family history, his habits, his weight, and all the other things that go into something like this. You know, I mean, that's a real issue. And again, we were all obsessed with President Biden and we forgot the other guy who was not very much younger than President Biden was. And that's never a good idea. But the whole Mir story doesn't make any sense to Dr. Reiner, I can tell you that. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to a lot of medical professionals either. But that's not my area.

[A]

Right. We're not approaching this ourselves as doctors, but people who deal with government. I mean, one of the reasons that you have such a line of succession for this office is the enormity of it. People understand that. That's why you have the vice president. You have a line of succession after that when you have big events. You and I have been around politics. It's also always a little grim. But we note on the State of the Union night with many of the line of succession in one room where the Designated Survivor is. And so this is a matter of public business that's fundamentally different from, as we know, judges or other officials who, if they meet their end, there's a process to replace them. That takes time. And so I wonder, do you think that this is going to weigh heavier on this second term? Not that anyone, as you said, is wishing for anything bad or grim, but there is a secrecy, apparently, around the basic medical condition, what the MRI reason was for. He uses it to counterattack. That's become normalized. But. But indeed, it's the public's business when he has a job this big, is it not?

[C]

Of course it is. And again, it was extensively covered when President Biden was president. Again, I point out what I said earlier. I think some people might have dropped the ball covering it. It's not going to get any better. Age is an elevator that doesn't have a down button. The best you can hope for is that you stop at the 32nd floor and you stay there for a month, but you're not going to go. You're never going back to the 31st floor. Right? And now you have this attention. And so when that happens, everything, if he has a mark on his hand, if he falls asleep, if he misses or something, if he has a doctor's appointment, you can imagine what life is going to be like for the next three years for this White House. And they put it front and center during the presidential candidate and now the tables turn and it's going to be a huge story for the next three years. Understand, age is an elevator without a down button. You can only stay the same temporary or you go and you're going to go up. There's no getting around it, I promise you. And it's not going to get any better.

[A]

Well, we wish everyone the best, James, including yourself. Let's keep riding this golden elevator across, across what we call life. I'll see you again soon, sir. Yes, sir.

[C]

Thank you, Art. You bet.

[A]

Remember, coming up tonight.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

All right. Coming up, I have a breakdown on you see when James is done, he's out of top lawmaker. And what their previewing about the coming fights over the Epstein files. DOJ under Trump has a deadline, plus new calls to get more bank records. But next we turn to the big story. James and I touched on it briefly, but I have a lot more on the military law, the legal precedents here, why the defense secretary faces serious questions about an alleged war crime with a special guest next, If there were a second strike, then killed wounded people needed in the first strike. Are you.

[C]

Well, number one, I don't.

[A]

Yeah, number one, I don't know that that happened.

[C]

And Pete said he did not want them. He didn't even know what people were talking about. So we'll look at, we'll look into it. But no, I wouldn't have wanted that. Not a second strike.

[A]

No second strike. That is what the president is saying, not calling this a hoax or saying everything went perfectly as we sometimes hear, but basically cornered into acknowledging there's a problem. And there is a growing bipartisan firestorm over getting more answers about what some experts say looks based on the current reporting, like a Trump administration war crime. Now, this all stems from a deadly airstrike on a boat in the Caribbean. You can see some of the footage we have. The administration has said this and other boats are drug boats. The evidence for that, though, has ranged. Now, survivors were clinging to the wreckage after the first U.S. strike when another strike was launched. That is a big deal, bottom line, because if you hit the boat and there is that successful strike, in the parlance of a military targeting, you don't just shoot and kill or under legal terms, murder survivors who pose no threat. This is a significant question about whether the Trump administration has committed a war crime and whether it meant to under its standing orders. Today, the defense secretary who's been under fire for this, including questions from both parties. Pete Hegseth talked about this in the terms of putting the Responsibility on the admiral was operationally in charge. We always have the back of our.

[B]

Commanders who are making decisions in difficult situations. And we do in this case and all these strikes, they're making judgment calls.

[A]

Now, that is how he put it. This whole story began with some investigative reporting. I've told you how some of this stuff that we're dealing with right now matters a lot and hits different when you have independent accounts. So the Washington Post went up with the big story on this and they have now followed up. They've reported this out, talking to Pentagon officials who say they are concerned the Trump administration is now simply trying to, quote, scapegoat that military officer. The Post reporting official said there was anger and uncertainty about whether Hegseth would take responsibility for his alleged role. This is Protect Pete BS One official told the Post. Now this is not a situation where you can describe it all simply or have one black and white view. Indeed, the Post report put more of the concern or the potential blame here on Hegseth because of an order described as killing everyone and that that could be construed as going forward with that second strike, which I've told you likely violates the laws of war. Hegseth, for his part, has denied using that phrase. And we just showed you what he said at the meeting about putting this sort of operationally. The admiral Frank Bradley gave the order to fire another strike which was on those survivors. The New York Times also reports that Hegseth's directive did not specifically address what should happen if a first missile turned out not to kill everyone, and that as the operation unfolded, Hegseth did not give further orders to Admiral Bradley. Now that could be an account that is pushing one side of this. It could also be what happened. We've got a lot of different folks involved, plus video. This is the type of scenario where if military procedure was followed and there is a full investigation, there should be a lot of documentation. Since the day after the strike, Hegseth did say he watched the operation live. I watched it live. We knew exactly who was in that boat.

[B]

We knew exactly what they were doing and we knew exactly who they represented. And that was Trende Aragua in narcotics terrorist organization. Those 11 drug traffickers are no longer with us sending a very clear signal that this is an activity the United.

[A]

States is not going to tolerate in our hemisphere. We have a very special guest. One more point I'm going to make on that reporting. We just heard from some of the folks involved. The Times summarizes the story by noting that the suggestion that Hegseth, the admiral, or both targeted shipwrecked survivors has been galvanizing because it would apparently be a war crime. We are now joined by Democratic Congressman Adam Smith, the ranking member on the Armed Services Committee, which is launching a probe. He's actually going to get a briefing from Admiral Bradley directly. I tried to be very careful in discussing what is obviously a very serious set of questions for the military, your views on where we are right now and what Congress needs to learn.

[B]

Yeah, there's multiple layers to this. First is what actually happened here, because obviously the White House has not been honest about this. I mean, the first thing they said was, oh, never happened, fake news, blah, blah, blah. Now it did happen, but Admiral Bradley was the one who made the decision. So we need to know exactly what happened. And also, okay, if Pete Hagseth didn't say kill everyone, what were the rules of engagement that he gave to Admiral Bradley and the other the trigger shooters on this? So we need all of that, and we're hoping to get that from Admiral Bradley on Thursday and go from there about this specific attack. But more broadly, there's a number of of other issues. Two I'll raise right now. Number one, this administration has not been transparent on what's going on with this program. Why are we blowing up these boats? Is it about regime change? Is it about the drug problem in America? Because this has nothing to do with fentanyl. This is all about cocaine. And of course, Trump just pardoned or is about to pardon a convicted drug dealer on a massive scale from Honduras. So what is going on? And they haven't followed the law, they haven't notified Congress as they are supposed to do when they made this decision. And this is why it matters. We conduct oversight to get into these details. Well, what are you going to do if there are survivors? So them not following the law, not notifying Congress, but overlaying the whole thing. Was the first strike legal? What was the imminent threat to the United States that they were doing with that boat? And I absolutely. Drugs are a major problem in the U.S. do we now have the death penalty for drug dealers? And oh, by the way, no due process, no probable cause. You know, the President decides he gets to kill people if he says they're drug dealers. That is not what Article 2 of the Constitution contemplated when it gave the President inherent right of self defense. So the entire operation is a problem to me. It's not just about this one strike.

[A]

Understood. And this president has tried to aggrandize military powers at home and Abroad without even, sometimes even a thin explanation or excuse. Sometimes we look at places in the US and we have Americans there and it doesn't take overhead surveillance video and complex reporting. We can see there's not much going on and that we're getting, you know, riot level gear, soldiers on the ground on this strike. I wanted to read from, well, look, I want to read from the law war manual so viewers have a sense of what, why this was so automatically concerning. And then I'll give you time to respond. They note the armed forces must also refuse to comply with clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations, what we would colloquially call war crimes. And then in the very next sentence, the example sort of a, here's a clear, obvious example. Orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal. Congressman, your thoughts on that and the other point you wanted to make sure two things.

[B]

One, this is why what Secretary Hegseth is doing is such an incredible disservice to the men and women who are serving in the military. First of all, he's giving them unclear guidance on what to do, which is why it was so important what Senator Kelly and Senator Slotkin and the others said about basically just reading the ucmj. You know, you're not supposed to follow illegal orders. Remember that that lack of clarity has left the troops who are left to implement this policy in a no person's land. And then the second it goes sideways, Haig says like, hey, I didn't tell him to do that. And he can dress it up however he wants. But when the press secretary yesterday for the President, Ms. Levitt, carefully read a pre written statement, that was the clearest CYA thing I've seen in a long time. Getting Hegseth out of it, like, oh, it wasn't me, it was this guy. And that's why the people at the Pentagon who know how this thing goes are really upset. Hank Seth, go, oh, we've got, we've got their backs. We're going to protect them. Oh, but in this one wasn't me, it was him. Okay, so that is a gutless thing to do that really places our service members in jeopardy. The larger point I was going to make, if you really want to know sort of what's going on with this and what's going on with what Trump's doing sending troops into our cities. It all has two sort of central through points. One, Trump wants the power. He wants to be able to do what he wants to do without having to follow the law. He wants to consolidate power. Second, he has this sort of 19th century way of looking at the world, which is he, he wants his sphere of influence. That's why he's talking about turning Canada into the 51st state, invading Greenland, invading Panama and now going after Maduro and also to some degree going after Petro because they haven't bent the knee to him. And also not to tie all this together, but on Ukraine. Why is the president proposing this surrender agreement to give Russia what they want? Well, it fits into his mindset of great power competition amongst totalitarian strongman regimes. Putin has his sphere of influence, I have mine. And I can't begin to tell you how awful that is for the national security of the United States in this country. If that's the world we live in, then we are gonna go back to that 19th century up through two world wars. It's bad. It's not the way we should be conducting foreign policy and national security policy. And that makes a heck of a lot more sense than, oh, we're concerned about drugs, who were blowing up boats. It looks to me like they're vastly more interested in pressuring Venezuela. And the President said as much on a number of occasions.

[A]

Yeah, all really important points. And I, as we can see, you're working here in the evening. Congressman, thanks for joining us from Capitol Hill.

[B]

Thanks for giving me the chance. Appreciate it.

[A]

Yes, sir, appreciate it. We have an update on these Epstein files coming and the story just mentioned that is ricocheting on Donald Trump. A pardon of a drug lord linked to El Chapo. A spate of anti police. These pardons we've reported on. We have that story. And Ann Kutch Khardori, the prosecutor. Next, Donald Trump is helping convicted drug lords who led narco states while also saying he wants to go after the drug trade in Caribbean islands. This is what we've been covering. New scrutiny on the pardon of a convict who was first prosecuted in Donald Trump's first term by Donald Trump's doj. The former Honduras president discredited Juan Orlando Hernandez. He got a hefty sentence of 45 years because of his links to drug trafficking. He was extracted the US in 2022. The Justice Department had cooperated with a prior investigation, as I mentioned, that went all the way back to the first term and then under the Biden administration and then on through a lot of collaboration. There was the findings that this individual abused the position to facilitate over 400 tons of coke into the U.S. it was now this pardon. A remarkable dissonance in Trump's strategy. The Times Reports Trump's vow to pardon a high profile convicted drug dealer appears to contradict his campaign to unleash the military on small boats in the Caribbean. And here is more.

[C]

You'Ve made so clear how you want to keep drugs out of the U.S. can you explain more about why you would pardon a notorious drug trafficker? Well, I don't know who you're talking about. Which Orlando Hernandez? Well, I was told, I was asked by Honduras, many of the people of Honduras, they said it was a Biden setup. What evidence does you share that he was set up and that he wasn't? Well, you take a look. I mean, they could say that. You take any country you want. If somebody sells drugs in that country, that doesn't mean you arrest the president.

[A]

Trump quite clearly saying his sympathy is with the foreign leader convicted of helping El Chapo because they're both leaders of countries rather than all of the people in the US Harmed by that drug trafficking, as he claims to want to fight a drug war in the same region. A top former State Department official who worked in this area posted online, we blow up alleged drug boats in the Caribbean, but pardon actually convicted drug traffickers in the US Someone help me make sense of this. Lawmakers hitting the same contradiction.

[C]

He has a third of our military in the Caribbean supposedly to prevent drugs from coming into America. And at the same time this morning pardons one of the most notorious drug dealers.

[A]

What a disgrace.

[B]

I would have never done that. This is shocking.

[A]

Suggesting possibly that pardons are now for sale. I'm joined by former federal prosecutor Ankush Khadari, who writes about legal issues with Politico. Welcome to. There were also former officials, nonpartisan, who said this was lunacy, this was outrageous. You spend many years building a case, getting a high profile extradition going after someone like this. The term narcostate, as you know, means something in places where they've found corruption that helps the drugs get here, from the state to the drug lords. Do you view this as an affront to the law enforcement who worked on the case? What do you think of this part?

[D]

Yeah, no, I share the view that everyone else has articulated. I mean, this is really sort of out there and it really makes a mockery of the stated policy in Central and South America. I mean, the real question here I think is like, what's really going on? I mean, the stated rationale that the Biden Justice Department was weaponized. I mean, that's a very transparent pretext. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head, which is I think Trump has a visceral aversion to the notion that heads of state might be held legally accountable for things that happen under their watch that potentially include their participation. And I think we may have seen that motivate him. And then there's some reporting that Roger Stone lobbied the president on this. And I have to wonder why he cares about this, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah, we have that headline. I can put up, as you mentioned, one more, more detail. We had a lot to try to report on this hell of a story. But Axios reports a letter behind Trump's pardon of the drug trafficker here. Persistent lobbying campaign by, of course, former convicted Trump aide Roger Stone, a longtime ally. Some claim the pardon announcement would energize the national party. You can get into the local politics down in that country. This can't be looked at in isolation. Trump is freeing people who dealt drugs, which is a nasty, dirty business. When you look at the international coke trade, there's a lot of violence in El Chapo's wake. His trial in Brooklyn showed that. Then you have Larry Hoover, a notorious American drug dealer who got Trump's lenience. You have all the people, of course, who were more directly MAGA fans who attacked police violently on January 6th. Do you see a wider attack on law enforcement itself? It's one thing when Americans hear about quote, unquote, lawfare and which politicians in trouble. Really another when you're freeing all these people who've been against law enforcement in violent ways.

[D]

Yeah, no, I mean, I think we have seen a pretty rampant abuse, I would say, of the pardon power in less than a year of Trump's second term here. I mean, we've seen not just the January 6th pardons, which I think really set the tone for all of this, but a slew of pardons, not just to well connected donors, allies. I mean, all of that that's happening and bad enough. But Trump also has this visceral distaste for any politician being held accountable, even within the U.S. i mean, that explains, I think, the Eric Adams prosecution and a bunch of other pardons of politicians convicted of serious political crimes. So there is a real through line here, both in terms of what types of crimes he thinks are appropriate for governments to address and who is. Who is among the people who can actually be held accountable. He seems to think that the heads of state should be exempted.

[A]

Yeah. Really striking. Ankush, thank you. We're fit in a quick break. When we come back, the Epstein preview of the files that are coming. Follow the money that Famous phrase and investigative approach is what we're now hearing from some Epstein survivors who, having helped push past that Epstein bill with a deadline for Trump this month, now want the finances. And that is a bill we actually reported on a while back on this program because Democratic Senator Ron Wyden has been on this case for a while and he wants to force the Treasury Department to release more of the Epstein bank records. That also could put pressure on anyone involved. Trump told Attorney General Pam Bondi not to release the files, which led to the memo, which led to the backlash. Epstein survivors got the files and now they're getting more and more support from the bridges they've built, sometimes in real time. We've seen it happen over the last year in Congress, and that includes Democrat Ro Khanna as well as Republican Tom Massie. They were the two individuals seen as brave and unlikely in pushing this when they were running into the wall earlier this year. They forced the Trump DOJ's hand. They changed everything this last month. That bill is now law because they effectively, with the survivors and the grounds flow around the country, forced the president to sign into law a plan to do the very thing he had fought all year. And so as we get ready to see what happens when we go towards this big deadline and Trump and the DOJ having to comply, I want to share with some new statements we got in a recent discussion with the Democrat behind the bill, Congressman Khanna. The main thing, though, that the survivors want, having really spent time with them over the last five months and that their lawyers want, is to understand which other rich and powerful men went to Epstein's Rape island, which other men engaged in the trafficking of these girls. And I do believe that information will come out through Epstein's computer. The pictures that are there, the emails that are there, and a lot of the FBI witness interviews where they have interviewed a lot of these people who either covered up for Epstein or participated in the trafficking. What is the game plan if you get something less than full compliance with what is now federal law? Well, that's the point now, Ari. It's federal law. And anyone who doesn't comply, not just Pam Bondi, but Justice career officials, can be held accountable, criminally accountable, and in contempt of Congress. Thomas Massie and I intend to meet with the attorney General and we're going to continue to push for full disclosure. And yes, the law and the courts are an option. But ultimately, what made this happen and what will release the files are the courage of the survivors. What we'll hear there is a bit of a public shout out and preview of what they plan to do, that yes, they can go to court and they have that option. It would be Republicans suing Trump in a drag out battle. It might be a replay of his very terrible November. But Congressman Khanna, who works closely with Massie and some of those Republicans who ultimately joined previewing that they'll have the survivors out front and center in as soon as 17 days if the evidence shows the Trump DOJ playing games, hiding, lying or refusing what is a federal law signed by the President to release the files. We'll have that coverage for you up and through the deadline. I'll be right back. Looking for a new way to grow your business?

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