← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump is in the Epstein emails: He 'knew,' spent 'hours' with victim
00:39:25
Damning emails allege President Trump knew of Jeffrey Epstein’s conduct. MSNBC's Ari Melber reports.
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Ari Melber
Mobile.com welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melbourne. We begin with the bombshell confirmation the revelations in this ongoing Trump Epstein scandal. Donald Trump is in the Epstein emails, as Nicole Wallace and I were just discussing. That is now confirmed. Prior to this, responsible people, lawyers who deal in evidence, journalists who deal with what we know and don't know, weren't saying that yet. Other people have said all kinds of things, by the way, on both sides of this. But what you see on your screen, our headline here is the first time this has been reported and confirmed with receipts because Epstein himself emailed about Trump. We have this from Congress. These are damning emails where Epstein says this is his view. What he alleges that Donald Trump knew of Epstein's conduct. He sent an email in 2019, revealed for the first time ever today, so long after his death. We now learn that he says, of course Trump knew about, quote, the girls. Now, that is a major statement. The context of it is what lawyers and investigators would call more credible because it was made privately in a, in a secret manner that he thought would stay secret. And if you're saying, okay, Ari, but now it's on the news, now it's in other people's hands. Yeah. Years later. And after he died, this statement he made stayed secret all that time through the probe and through his own death. So what they thought would stay secret did stay secret for a long time. And while Donald Trump vowed to release exactly this type of material, the Emails or files in government possession. He broke that vow. And it's only the dogged pursuit of investigative reporters. We have a key one coming up, and government officials and in the independent branch of Congress, where Democrats, with some Republicans, I should note, have been pushing to release the files. We'll get into what it means, whether you call it files or emails, transfers of documents, data. But these emails are some of the most newsworthy because they involve the now deceased Epstein trafficker talking to the now incarcerated Epstein co conspirator, Maxwell. In that email, he says Trump also asked Maxwell, that's Ghislaine Maxwell, to stop. Which seems to be a reference to a public fallout that we have seen that Trump and Epstein were close, they would socialize together. We've linked them in public reporting before, separate from what's in the files. We knew that they publicly appeared together. That was in the 2000s and later had this falling out. Epstein says Trump asked him to basically resign or leave Mar? A Lago, but Epstein insists he wasn't formally a member. Now, Trump had claimed that he banned Epstein from the resort after basically a dispute over people who work there. That's one way to put it. Others have questioned what it meant that they basically, quote, took people that worked for me and what kind of pressure and scrutiny that puts on both men and the people in their employ. Another Epstein email from 2011 newly revealed today for the first time is the bombshell. It is redacted with the word victim. And I want to draw your attention to exactly what it says. Epstein is emailing secretly to Maxwell, later convicted for his sex trafficking ring, that Trump had spent hours at his house, hours at Epstein's house with and redacted by the government. We just see the word victim. That's the individual name. The White House isn't denying that that was a victim. I'll get to that today. But basically, this is the now revealed claim. The emails do not dictate a kind of specific misconduct by Trump, although they say he knew about the, quote, girls. And if you take the term girls literally, combined with what Maxwell was convicted of and a heck of a lot of other reporting, the allegation from Epstein, now deceased, is that Trump knew about what girls, what minors, what females under 18 were doing a type of wrongdoing. This is a huge deal. Trump spent hours with redacted victim. Trump knew what was going on. And remember, Trump claimed repeatedly last year and his Attorney General claimed this year they would release the Epstein files. Now, people can debate what that term means. It's not A term you can just define in a dictionary or in any government handbook. Some people use it to mean what they believe to be a kind of secret pile of documents that the DOJ has. Other people mean just any material that's secret that could come out. The Epstein estate clearly has some of this material, which is how it got to Congress. I will tell you in our special report why the DOJ most probably has it. Now. The Trump link to Epstein has been documented, but this is the first time we have seen Epstein in his own now deceased hand, put on paper or email, put down as a record what he thought Trump did and knew. And Maxwell responds back, and again, they thought this was secret. This is considered credible evidence. It's the, the kind of damning material that you can understand why Trump would want to keep secret. And that is clear even apart from whether it rises to a legal level that investigators or federal prosecutors would look at. And when I say investigators, I mean they would have to investigate it. We are not saying, we're not reporting that these references reach the bar of a criminal, of opening a criminal probe. But if you think back outside of the Trump era to just normal political times, being even linked this way to a convicted sex trafficker like Maxwell, and the deceased accused sex trafficker Epstein, he just wasn't tried because he died in prison. This is a huge bombshell in and of itself. And there's more coming, according to at least a slim majority of the current Congress, because late today, the House finally swore in Congresswoman Grijalva. This was after Mike Johnson had used the shutdown to delay this for 50 days. And that sets in motion what Democrats, with some Republicans say are enough votes to override the Johnson Trump secrecy agenda and get more Epstein materials released. So the vote is more relevant now than ever. You have this shocking new evidence. You have a Trump scandal that has been growing over time, not diminishing. And you have the administration, the Trump White House, basically saying, well, the Democrats selectively leaked a couple emails and that they're trying to, quote, smear Donald Trump. What's interesting about that is they are the ones who had long called to release the emails. I'll show you more on that. In addition, things are happening, we talk about sometimes nothing happening in Congress. Well, today Republican lawmakers responded to Democrats and how they'd use their power, getting up off the mat here and doing something. And Republicans responded by doing more, which interestingly also hurts the Trump White house, releasing about 20,000 other documents from the Epstein estate. We have reporters sifting through those Here I can tell you a lot of folks in Washington and media, in law and certainly in politics, are sifting through those. Now let me turn to Trump's broken promise. Trump is in the Epstein emails, yet he campaigned on this kind of transparency, releasing these emails and even more. And then after being sworn in, his attorney general, Bondi promised to release more Epstein material. The list of clients that went to the island has not been made public. So if you're able to, you'll be. I'd certainly take a look at it.
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Nancy Erica Smith
Would you declassify the Epstein files?
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Ari Melber
Yeah, yeah, I would. Will that really happen?
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Host
It's sitting on my desk right now.
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Ari Melber
That she would go on to vow to release what she said was sitting on her desk. She talked about a client list. And then later, and this is what caused such a MAGA uproar. AG Bondi under Trump, DOJ said there was nothing more to release at all and said there was no possible blackmail. One of the other emails to a writer talks about that, although doesn't confirm it. So what we have is Donald Trump and his top DOJ official claiming they would do part of what's happening today. And now that it's happening today, over their objections, they're saying this is bad. And that's why this story, although it starts with the victims, and we've had victims on this program, we have a Miami Herald reporter coming up who started all this work long before it was a political football. And that matters. This also matters because it is a kind of an illustration of the most important problem with the way Donald Trump is governing right now. MAGA people notice it on some topics, other people notice it on other topics. But whether he's campaigning on lower prices or Epstein transparency, once in office, he not only turns to other issues, but lies about these things. And so depending on which issue you care about, you start to notice it. Donald Trump has been criticized more on this issue from the right than probably any other thing we can measure this year. And today shows those criticisms were on the right track, that he was acting guilty because he's in the files. And that when he attacked the Wall Street Journal, owned by Rupert Murdoch and other outlets for reporting that he was linked to Epstein, that he wrote him a birthday card, that Pam Monty said he was in the files or the emails. He's in the emails. We have that today and we've shown you that Trump and Epstein have a long, detailed, repeating history. We documented it in these two timelines, their relationship on the jet and the parties. And as you see over to the right, a lengthy case timeline where we showed some of these conflicts of interest. You got the parties in New York, you got Mar? A Lago, you got video of them looking like two guys who definitely enjoyed each other's company. And yes, they claimed a later falling out. Trump is trying to downplay what actually happened. He has sued the Wall Street Journal because they published evidence corroboration that birthday card was later leaked by. Do you remember where it came from? Where it came from The Epstein estate in law, they call this a chain of custody. So when you have material and it goes from, say, the original source, literally Epstein's home, out to another reputable source, say prosecutors of the government or Congress, that's the chain of custody that authenticates the material. It looks like Donald Trump and some people around him knew he was in these emails, knew about this birthday card, if he wrote it and signed it. And Pam Bondi, according to reporting that Trump objected to, warned him and said, maybe it's better to take the political hit for breaking the campaign vow or looking like you were misleading or lying than take the hit for being in the emails. But look what's happened now. They've taken the hit for both and the story's not over. This is a matter of significant interest. We're seeing it today since the emails dropped at every major news site in local papers, not just the politically obsessed national ones. And you can see it in El Pais and international news, all from when it broke today. This is the one story that President Trump cannot run from now. He has deflected, he has misled, and only he knows what he knows. Only he knows what he did and why they had the falling out. Only he knows what he remembers. He knew at the time about whether there was a awareness of a level of operational sex trafficking that he objected to, which could go in his favor. In fairness, if the email is correct, that he objected to it and told Maxwell about it and they both remembered it, that's one thing in his favor. But how did he know so much about it? And why did he mislead about it after the fact? And when he was running on vowing transparency, what was he planning? And when Pam Bondi, according to reporting, said, you're in these files and emails, then what did they do? Why does the COVID up look so bad? And is this just it? In other words, is it just these emails or what else is in the DOJ files and other places in the government? These are big questions. Today is a breakthrough and there are some people who look up these days and every time they see a breakthrough, they say, well, will anything change? Does it matter? Will there be accountability? But this is the kind of story, particularly with heat from the right to the left and now a looming vote to get more files, that has a lot of momentum. I've got the New York Times, Michelle Goldberg, and a women's rights advocate and attorney, Nancy Erica Smith. Join me when we're back in 90 seconds.
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My.
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Nancy Erica Smith
Overall take on this Bhatia is why didn't Trump just release these? Just release them. Just release them right like now he's in the position of being like singled out as the only one allegedly. As opposed to one of a slew of names. The Democrats of course are going to make a ton of hay over it and I don't know that there's any there there whatsoever. But I can. I concede that they sound bad.
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Ari Melber
Megyn Kelly says it sounds bad. And Trump was basically wrong in his failure to release this. We are joined now by New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg, who has reported on this story extensively, and Nancy Erica Smith, a women's rights advocate, civil rights attorney who's represented victims of sexual harassment in the workplace and other contexts. Welcome to both of you. Michelle, he's in the emails. And surprise, surprise to you, or irony, this looks bad as is. And they're fighting to stop the next round of release, which suggests that they, this is how fairly I can say it. They, the Trump folks do not think this is it because if they thought the next House vote and the next round of emails was about everybody but him, then they would stop fighting today. They're still fighting.
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Host
Right. And they're also, I mean, I think we also have to see this story in the context of another big story from this week, which is the House getting this whistleblowers report from the jail or from the prison that Ghislaine Maxwell is in. Right. So Jamie Raskin releases this whistleblowers report saying that she's getting kind of extreme special treatment. I can't actually say the word, I think on air, but the prison official said that they were tired of being her essentially servant. And so why, why is she, and this is while she's working on her clemency petition. Why, why is she, you know, why is she moved to this prison where sex traffickers are not typically allowed? And why is she being treated in this extraordinary way at the same time?
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Ari Melber
I'll jump in and I'll let you finish. The question is why is the Trump DOJ nicer to someone who helps pedophiles than the victims?
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Host
Right. And I think that one of the questions now from these emails, I mean, to me, the most intriguing phrase in these emails was when Jeffrey Epstein said to Gillian Maxwell, trump is the dog that didn't bark. And we don't know exactly what he means by that, but it seems as if they don't want her to be able to answer that question.
- [17:15]
Ari Melber
There's that email. Nancy, go ahead.
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Nancy Erica Smith
Well, I agree. And God knows Todd Blanch didn't ask that question. And we don't know what he had access to. When you have a DOJ and US Attorneys that are populated by unqualified people who have represented Trump and Todd Blanche is, and he's the second in command at the doj.
- [17:38]
Ari Melber
So you referred to Trump's personal attorney. Yeah, he's a, he's a Trump attorney. Who then? Yeah, he has this big role and he goes in and you're saying if he were sitting with somebody and trying to do the facts right, and they said, oh, nothing with Trump and they're the co conspirator, then he'd say, well, what about this email which the DOJ should have. They had, they searched the emails and say, well, you said here they spend hours together.
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Host
Right.
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Nancy Erica Smith
Instead it sounded like a cocktail party conversation among friends. And I've taken a lot of depositions. That's not what a deposition looks like. And we already knew what the evidence was against Maxwell. She was tried in front of a jury and found guilty. So why are we meeting with her and now we're giving her a puppy? It's outrageous.
- [18:18]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And Republicans on the Hill like Megyn Kelly are not saying, oh, it's all fine. They're finding different ways to at least try to split the difference. Take a listen. I am for transparency. I do think this was our disaster for the White House. This was a self inflicted wound by the White House and how they handled this. And I think they've dug themselves a hole. Any information that's released has to be taken seriously. The American people deserve clarity on this issue. I think we need to get that information out. I think transparency is important. So, Nancy, when you look at the emails themselves, I walked through them. How credible are they? Example, as compared to something that comes out later or when someone's in a different posture? These look very credible because they were secret communications back in the day.
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Nancy Erica Smith
These are incredibly credible. These emails mean what they say. They're not created for somebody to see someday. They're not created after Trump is president. Some of them, some of the Michael Wolf ones, right, the older ones on the road, but the ones between Maxwell and Epstein himself admitting that he knew about the girls. But let's talk about what maybe he, he was complaining to Maxwell about they were stealing girls from Mar A Lago. All of Trump's properties hire very young women. I've sued his property in New Jersey. All of the hires are very young women. The waitresses, the spa people who Ms. Giuffre was. So was he upset about having it stolen? He also owned a modeling agency and a teen pageant. The fact that somebody with those inclinations and the statements he makes about young girls, which are incredibly creepy, makes you wonder about his relationship with a, with a pedophile.
- [20:17]
Host
Well, yeah. And as we know, Trump, I mean, the contestants in those teen, in the teen pageant accused Donald Trump of walking in on them. And part of what is so weird about this story is that these revelations are at once shocking and not at all surprising. Right. At this point, you would have to come up with a very bizarre conspiracy theory to create an innocent explanation for all this. But I also think that when Republicans say that this is all, you know, a PR disaster, that the problem with is that they handled this poorly. We don't know that that's true because we don't know if what's in the files that they're refusing to release is much worse than what they've already released. In which case it makes perfect sense that, you know, even today you basically have a whole of government approach to trying to keep these things away from the public. There was reporting today that they were calling Lauren Boebert, one of the Republicans who signed this discharge petition in the House, that they were calling her into the Situation Room. I mean, imagine this use of a.
- [21:18]
Ari Melber
Situation, right, to give the. Let's look, this is your paper. On the news side, they say Trump ramps up pressure to GOP to thwart Epstein vote. As you say this. Representatives who she had pressed for more Epstein disclosure summoned for a meeting in the White House Situation Room with top Justice Department FBI officials. You're saying that alone is suspicious and possibly using those officials for a cover up rather than law enforcement.
- [21:41]
Host
I think it's clearly a cover up. I mean they're clearly. It's not secret that they are using all the power at their disposal to keep this material secret.
- [21:52]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And I want to play on that point what the deputy Attorney general said, Nancy. We try to cover things fairly. So if they just do normal stuff, we can report it. This was completely abnormal, sending in anyone to go talk to this convict, his co conspirator, let alone the deputy AG and they didn't include the people on the case. There was nonpartisan professionals in the case. So this is what Blanche said. Take a listen. This is. Oh, I'm sorry, you know what, can we pull it up? And then I'm gonna pull this up. This was later that I was gonna get to after the break. But let's, let's pull this up as a full screen. I'll just read it to you. He says, I asked her questions. I believe all of us wanted answered. And she answered them. She answered them. The point of the interview was not for me to pressure test every answer she gave. He says the point of the interview was to allow her to speak, which nobody had done before. This is what he told Sienna in my mistake. Cause it's not actually Video what I want to do. You look gobsmacked.
- [22:50]
Julie K. Brown
Right.
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Ari Melber
But that looks worse now that we have the evidence. We didn't have it then. And so I want you to get your fact check of that when we come back.
- [22:58]
Julie K. Brown
Great.
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Ari Melber
Right after this. We're back with Michelle Goldberg and lawyer Nancy Erica Smith, as promised, Nancy is going to give us a breakdown on how these emails show that Trump knew about Epstein's conduct. That's according to the Epstein email. Trump COJ did an unusual interview with Maxwell and didn't ask obvious questions or, and this is new today, use basic corroboration of exactly this evidence. These revelations show how former Trump criminal defense attorney and now number two at DOJ, Mr. Blanche, how they operated. You have this 2011 email. Epstein writes that this redacted victim spent hours at Epstein's house with Trump. Maxwell says, I've been thinking about that. And yet Blanche failed to use or reference basic evidence. Prosecutors pull emails, texts, and a heck of a lot more. So while I can't tell you what's in the DOJ's evidence room because they haven't released it, I can tell you this is exactly the kind of thing they would have and they failed to use. Take a listen. Did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?
- [24:14]
Host
Absolutely never in any context.
- [24:19]
Nancy Erica Smith
Okay, so Trump's former lawyer. This is where all norms have been breached. All norms. We don't have a Justice Department anymore. We have a Trump department of let's protect Trump. We have inexperienced and unqualified people as U.S. attorneys. The second in command at the dog as well as the first are just completely Trump lawyers. They are not our lawyers anymore. So that is how I would take the deposition of a friendly witness who I knew was going to help my case. That is not seeking evidence. That is not seeking truth. And why would he? He's Trump's lawyers. He's not our lawyers. None of them are habas. Not our lawyers.
- [25:02]
Ari Melber
Is that a misuse of the Justice Department?
- [25:04]
Nancy Erica Smith
Yes, it's definitely a misuse. And our taxpayer dollars are paying for it. I mean, we need like a blue state tax or something to take back our government. It's gonna take something big to stop this train, because the people he's put in power. How did Acosta become Labor Secretary?
- [25:23]
Ari Melber
Who cut the first sweetheart deal?
- [25:25]
Nancy Erica Smith
Yes, and Trump made him Labor Secretary. So now, that certainly raises some questions right now. I mean, it has before, too, and he had to after New York finally indicted Epstein, Acosta had to resign because it was so clear that he violated the law in a secret, secret agreement that violated the Crime Victims Protection Act. Why? Why did he do that and then become Labor Secretary to Trump? It's all related. And I sound like the Pizzagate conspiracy people.
- [25:59]
Ari Melber
Well, they don't cite as many statutes as you do or how victims are supposed to be treated in our federal system or know the names of all of these individuals who colluded together to help the trafficker.
- [26:10]
Nancy Erica Smith
Yep.
- [26:11]
Ari Melber
And now the convicted co conspirator, the trafficker.
- [26:14]
Nancy Erica Smith
Right.
- [26:14]
Ari Melber
So thank you. That's a good legal fact check that we'd set up because that alone is a lot. Michelle, broadening out. What else is important today?
- [26:20]
Host
Well, look, I just think this story is so insane that it's hard not to sound a little bit insane talking about it. And, but yes, I think that, you know, we don't know what else is out there. What we do know is that the government is providing special favors to a convicted sex trafficker at the same time, as we now know that she knows at least the answer to at least, I think, one crucial question. When. When what? When. When Epstein said Donald Trump is the dog that didn't bark, what did he mean? And we have basically the whole of government working to make sure that we don't get the answer to that question.
- [26:56]
Nancy Erica Smith
Exactly. It's, it's very scary and it really draws into attention, draws attention to the fact that we don't have a Justice Department anymore. And that's scary. People are being pardoned left and right, insurrectionists and other people. Important cases are not being attended to. The FBI has been taken off terrorism. I mean, this is a scary time for us as anybody who cares about the law. Not having a Justice Department is a very scary thing. When you have an out of control president of Republican Party controlling Congress, that won't stand up to him.
- [27:32]
Host
Won't.
- [27:33]
Nancy Erica Smith
As the new congresswoman said today, they've abandoned their role as a, as a part of our government.
- [27:39]
Ari Melber
Well, and so is there a question here? And it's the closest echo is of the Watergate era, where you did have an attorney general who thought they were invincible. People say, oh, nothing matters, Michelle. Nobody's ever going to get in trouble. That's how they felt, that's how they acted. You had an attorney general who was convicted and went to prison, which is, which is quite a mark. Some of these reforms we've seen tried to rebuild DOJ after that, do you think? And I don't want to get ahead of the facts, a Congress that had subpoena power could investigate this. We need to know more. But do you think there are questions of misconduct here, both for number one and number two at this doj?
- [28:13]
Nancy Erica Smith
Absolutely, there's questions of misconduct. They are our lawyers. This is a government agency, the highest level law enforcement agency in our country, and they are operating against our interests in favor of a sex trafficker and co conspirator of a sex trafficker. And those who enabled it, knew about it or participated. That's gross. Illegally. It's unethical. They should be disbarred. And, and it's very scary because that's all that stands between us and a dictator, that Department of Justice and our Supreme Court, which also I have absolutely no confidence in Michelle.
- [28:55]
Host
I just think, you know, I understand why people think, oh, nothing matters because, you know, Donald Trump has already been found liable for sexual assault. There's, you know, a million reasons. None of this comes as a surprise. At the same time, you look at his polling numbers, they're in many ways worse than they were at this time in his first term when he was historically unpopular. And at some point, that gravity, if, you know, if nothing else, just that political gravity starts to affect Republicans. You're already seeing a lot of criticism of him from the right, I think, because they view him correctly, as a lame duck. And a lot of that criticism is because he's not radical and nativist enough. Nevertheless, you know, the kind of the idea that he can. That he can get away with anything and they're not, and without political repercussions, I just think is we just saw what happened in the last election.
- [29:52]
Ari Melber
Yeah, we saw that. We saw Tuesday, you see the anger over what I mentioned in our reporting tonight, that some people say, wow, he lied about bringing prices down. Some people thought, Joe Rogan says he thought that they were only gonna go after violent criminal immigrants. That's what Joe Rogan thought. You could take him at his word because now he says that what Trump is doing on immigration is inhumane. Other people thought that release the Epstein material meant release it. And today here they are fighting it, even as some of it comes out. So you take that all together and you see there's gravity in democracy even as democracy is under attack. We set aside extra time for both of you because you've both been so clear on these stories and the people involved. So I want to thank Michelle and Nancy and when it comes to people. That brings us to another special guest coming up, the journalist who broke open the Epstein case. From the Miami Herald award winning Julie K. Brown, who has worked with the victims from the beginning. She agreed to come on the beat tonight. We want to hear from her. That's next.
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Ari Melber
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- [32:24]
Ari Melber
There are many layers to the sordid story of Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and Donald Trump. And some involve more recently Congress and politics. And we've covered that. But this story started with the abuse of women and girls. And there are reporters and individuals, including women's rights advocates who have been on that from the beginning. So as I mentioned earlier in the hour, we have set aside time right now to turn to a award winning Miami Herald investigative reporter Julie K. Brown. She has been reporting this case from the beginning on Epstein's abuse. The legal dealings. Later, his death in the custody of the Trump Bureau of Prisons. She won a Polk Award and a Hillman Prize for her ongoing investigative series. These are just some of the headlines. She also authored the book Perversion of the Jeffrey Epstein Story. Her reporting today notes that the newly released emails regarding Donald Trump were written during critical times in Epstein's life when the Herald had been reporting on the links between these men in Mar? A Lago. I will get to that. Let me bring in journalist Julie K. Brown. Welcome.
- [33:29]
Julie K. Brown
Thank you for having me.
- [33:31]
Ari Melber
Before we get to all those details, just big picture, what is your response to this story today, to these emails after all this time and Epstein's death coming out?
- [33:43]
Julie K. Brown
Well, first of all, I always, my thoughts always go to the victims because I've been working with them for so many years and talking to so many of them. And, you know, I spoke with some of them today, and I think the feeling is that this is finally America perhaps is paying attention to this story and realizing how important it is beyond who did what, who was involved. This is a story that the Department of Justice should, if it was anybody else, really, who was accused of these crimes, the Department of Justice would be calling in people. The FBI would be interviewing people. This would be a major criminal investigation. And I think that some of them feel sort of elated that possibly now there will be people that will be questioned, there will be people that will be looked at. You know, I think there's a little bit of hope. Some of them are emotional about this.
- [34:42]
Ari Melber
Because, because the, the history has, the history has been that they were often not only ignored, but, but actively misled. The original deal, which you reported on out of Florida under the Bush Justice Department and the later Trump higher Acosta even unlawfully hid the details from them. We've had a guest on earlier night who spoke about those rules. So you're saying from talking to at least some of them today, they view the fact that Congress finally put the heat on the Epstein estate, that they went over the doj, basically over the heads of the Trump doj, to get something out there. They see that as a, as a step.
- [35:19]
Julie K. Brown
Yes, yes, they do. And they want to keep pushing.
- [35:23]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Understood. Let's turn to the specific way that some of your coverage does impact this. As mentioned, the Miami Herald reporting, you and your team and some of those disclosures pushed to help reopen the case, which had, which had kind of been pressed down in this email exchange. I'm gonna put it up and explain to viewers this is not one of those ones we mentioned at the top of the hour, this is a different one to the writer Michael Wolf, who has been on this and other networks. He wrote a book about Trump. This is him in an exchange with Jeffrey Epstein where he says, Trump said, he asked me to resign. I was never a member ever referring to Mar A Lago. Of course, he knew about the girls as he asked me, Maxwell, to stop. Explain how this comes after some of the Miami Herald reporting.
- [36:09]
Julie K. Brown
Well, look, we knew that Virginia had been, she had been telling her story for many, many years about how she'd been recruited out of the spa, Mar A Lago, and we suspect, we suspected even before Trump had mentioned he was upset about it, but that they were recruiting other women. It's not a stretch to think that Virginia wasn't the only one who was recruited out of Mar A Lago. So this is very concerning.
- [36:37]
Ari Melber
Recruited not for legal employment, but for potentially illicit abuse.
- [36:40]
Julie K. Brown
Yeah, yes, for massages, you know, and the women that were being contacted knew that these so called massages were not massages because the girls or the young women would come back to the spa and say what had happened. So they were well aware that this was, was sort of a, a scam or some kind of a, a, you know, network that Epstein and Maxwell had set up out of the spa at Mar A Lago, where they were getting women from, from the, from Mar A Lago's spa.
- [37:14]
Ari Melber
And so what do these emails, in your view, contribute to the question of, of Trump's level of knowledge? I reported that in fairness, his side would argue that by telling Maxwell to stop and he had mentioned some of this publicly prior, that's him saying this was bad. There's also a question of whether that contradicts his other defenses that he didn't really know enough about what was going on.
- [37:41]
Julie K. Brown
Well, like, you really can't have it both ways. I mean, I think the story changes based on what kind of information we get from day to day. It's hard to believe that Trump would not have been aware of this because he was friends. We do know that he had a friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. We do know that he had some inkling of Epstein's penchant for young girls and young women. So we know that he had some knowledge. And these emails only really confirm that in some ways. With Epstein saying essentially that he knew and Maxwell confirming that as well.
- [38:21]
Ari Melber
Congress is looking at a vote to release more material. What kind of information might be in there?
- [38:28]
Julie K. Brown
It's hard to know. Everybody is talking about release the Epstein file, release the Epstein files. I honestly think that we're getting more from the estate than we're going to see from the DOJ or the FBI. I am skeptical whether we're really going to get everything since it's been combed through. And there is, you know, there is a feeling that Trump didn't want, obviously he's trying to block their release. And why would you do that? I mean, if, if there's nothing in there that is going to implicate you, then why wouldn't you call for transparency and just have the files released at this point? So I think that it's possible that we're getting more as a result of the House Oversight Committees effort to subpoena Epstein's estate and that the Justice Department, the FBI files might be sanitized.
- [39:21]
Ari Melber
Right. You're making a point about the credibility of the repository of the material. I mentioned to viewers these terms have been thrown around files, client lists, emails. But the estate, which has legal obligations to comply with the subpoena, says, okay, here you go. We look today not only at those three emails that got all the news, but we looked at the other materials and some of it's random. There's a random video I watched. There's other material. But they sort of say under the legal pressure, here you go. And you're making the point that you might, given the history, have to be more skeptical about what Pam Bondi's DOJ ultimately releases and says is the whole story, which we'll keep in mind. Julie Brown, as you know, your reporting has had an impact and we appreciate you making time for us on the beat tonight.
- [40:05]
Julie K. Brown
Thanks for having me.
- [40:06]
Ari Melber
Thank you. We'll be right back. Donald Trump is in the Epstein emails. That is the bombshell report today that we can report factually for the first time ever based on evidence from the Epstein state that would be bad for Donald Trump. Legally, he's not accused of any crime, but it raises questions that he has to deal with for himself. It's also bad for the Trump administration, the Trump doj, because it raises questions about their handling of a case that touches on so many important issues. Attorney General Pam Bondi has reversed herself. She said there was a client list, then said there wasn't. She issued a email memo, two pages that said there's nothing more to investigate. Well, today that looks worse than it did the day she dropped it. And then she dodged under oath. There's been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half naked young women. Do you know if the FBI found Those photographs in their search of Jeffrey Epstein's safe or premises or otherwise. Have you seen any such thing?
- [41:21]
Nancy Erica Smith
You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here.
- [41:23]
Host
And make salacious remarks, once again trying to slander President Trump.
- [41:28]
Ari Melber
The question is, did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him? You don't know anything about that? Okay. No answer there? No. Clear, no. And a lot more questions facing Bondi and her deputy about how they've dealt with, with this case now that some of the evidence, whether you call it emails, files or material, is out of their hands and getting out to the public. We'll be right back. Turning to the Trump administration's clash with a very popular pop star. That's why they call them pop stars. Olivia Rodrigo, I'm going to show you a video without sound that the Trump administration's ICE originally put online with one of her songs. You'll be able to see this video here and they say if ICE finds you and it's sort of menacing, then they talk about self deporting. This video initially included her music without her authorization or consent. That's unlawful under copyright law. And it also invited a response from this pop star with tens of millions of followers. She told the Trump administration, quote, don't ever use my songs to promote your racist, hateful propaganda in the song that they apparently misused. She also says, I pay attention to things most people don't. Now, clearly the young star is paying attention to politics right now, to government, to what this administration is doing, and she views it as racist. That is her clapback, one that apparently they didn't expect when they first misused her music. And we can report that some versions of this have been pulled down by the Trump administration since. Her response, that's all our time.
- [43:25]
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