Trump Loses Monthslong Bid to Stop Epstein Vote

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump Loses Monthslong Bid to Stop Epstein Vote
Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Ari Melber (MS NOW)
Notable Guests: Maya Wiley, Gretchen Carlson, Bill Kristol

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Episode Overview

This critical episode centers on the major political turning point as Congress prepares to vote on releasing the long-withheld Epstein files—despite monthslong resistance from President Trump and his administration. Ari Melber unpacks how bipartisan pressure forced this shift, exposing Trump’s retreat and the broader implications for transparency, justice, and power within the GOP. The discussion is augmented by live analysis from guests Maya Wiley, Gretchen Carlson, and Bill Kristol.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Congressional Push to Release Epstein Files

• The House is set to vote on a bipartisan measure to release the Epstein files, which the Trump DOJ has refused to release for nearly a year.
• Trump openly opposed release, including allegedly ordering Attorney General Pam Bondi not to comply ([03:10]).
• Republican Speaker Mike Johnson also resisted any vote, blocking the measure from reaching the floor for most of the year ([03:40]).

Ari Melber:
"The Trump secrecy — don't release the files, don't do it, whatever you do — was also backed by the coequal branch, where the Republicans control the House … this approach held for most of the year. It held until last week." ([03:40])

• A unique bipartisan discharge petition, combining Democratic leadership and a notable Republican minority, forced the vote ([05:10]).
• Trump, after a year of opposition, is now rhetorically surrendering due to the inevitability of defeat—218 votes secured, with signs of even broader GOP defection ([06:30]).

2. Trump's Contradictory Position and PR Spin

• Trump attempted to call the Epstein file story a “hoax” while simultaneously ordering investigations targeting only his adversaries ([05:50]).
• His latest position claims he “supports” releasing files, though his administration refuses to actually do so.

Ari Melber:
"If now, tonight, he claims...he actually supports [file release], then he could do that right now. He doesn't need Congress to force him to do the thing." ([07:10])

• The strategy is exposed as PR double-talk: "Be transparent, but don't be transparent" ([21:13], Maya Wiley).

3. Human Impact & Survivor Voices

• Epstein’s survivors and advocates stress the real-world stakes, rejecting any effort to frame the issue as mere political theater.

Epstein Survivor Statement:
"Please remember these are crimes that were committed against real humans... This is not partisan. We're asking for you to stand with us now to release all of the files." ([08:52])

Rep. Thomas Massie:
"I stand with these women. I stand with rape victims. I believe the country deserves transparency in these files, and I don't believe that rich, powerful people should be protected." ([08:17])

4. New Revelations from the Epstein Files

• Recent email discoveries include Epstein's remarks undermining Trump’s financial claims and documenting Epstein's relationships and discussions with Trump allies like Steve Bannon ([09:15], [16:52]).
• Noteworthy: These materials suggest deep normalization of Epstein within elite circles, and raise questions about institutional complicity even during the height of the #MeToo movement ([19:46], Gretchen Carlson).

5. DOJ and Attorney General's Handling

• Attorney General Bondi and Deputy Todd Blanche implicated in stonewalling and irregularities.
• Bondi previously vacillated, claiming at different times to be in possession of the files, then denying it ([26:00]), and ultimately following Trump's orders to withhold release.
• Todd Blanche, having served as Trump’s personal attorney, conducted a “PR stunt” interview with Ghislaine Maxwell instead of a substantive legal inquiry.

Gretchen Carlson:
"That's why this was not a legal interview. This was a PR stunt. This was dictated from above ... thinking that doing this interview, Ghislaine Maxwell would clear Trump's name ... She’s received all of this special treatment since then." ([31:50])

6. Political Fallout and GOP Fractures

• The forced vote marks a clear break within the GOP, with MAGA loyalists—such as Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie—defying Trump.

• Greene publicly rebukes Trump for inflammatory attacks:
  Marjorie Taylor Greene: "The most hurtful thing he said ... was he called me a traitor... those are the types of words used that can radicalize people against me and put my life in danger." ([15:29])

• Discussion of how true believers (MTG, Boebert, Massie) proved likelier to resist Trump than moderate, career-minded Republicans ([42:19], Bill Kristol).

7. Broader Implications for Power and Transparency

• The overwhelming, bipartisan support for file release suggests rare democratic accountability bypassing procedural obstruction.
• Melber and guests discuss how issues like transparency in sex crimes, once treated as political hot potatoes, have now fractured Trump’s aura of control ([43:57]).
• The episode closes with references to the mood within MAGA circles—many see this as the end of Trump's unassailable power and the start of a “lame duck” presidency ([36:25]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Ari Melber: "Trump is making a U-turn and he's surrendering rhetorically to those pushing the vote... [But] he has not released the Epstein files, which means he's still opposed to releasing the Epstein files, even if he is so worried about tomorrow." ([06:30])
• Maya Wiley: "There's a broad support in the American public, including from Donald Trump's own base that is saying we want to see these too." ([13:41])
• Gretchen Carlson: "This is the first time I can remember seeing President Trump having to reverse course and actually kowtow to members of Congress...this may give Republicans a spine to stand up against him on other [things]..." ([14:14])
• Bill Kristol: "It is a cover up that's unwinding. I don't think it means that the wheels have totally come off. It doesn't mean he's a lame duck tomorrow but it's a pretty big deal...to see the Republican House vote ... to release these to at least try to force justice ... [is] a pretty big deal." ([39:07])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Begin content after ads: [01:00]
• Summary of Trump Administration’s refusal, House dynamics: [01:30]-[05:50]
• Trump’s PR contradictions and retreat: [06:10]-[07:20]
• Survivor and Rep. Massie statements for transparency: [08:17]-[09:04]
• Epstein emails & Trump money: first revelations: [09:30]
• Guest roundtable introductions – Maya Wiley, Gretchen Carlson: [13:30]
• Analysis of Republican fractures and significance: [14:14]-[17:48]
• Discussion of Epstein normalization, societal implications: [19:46]-[20:32]
• Trump’s “support” for release, but continued inaction: [21:13]-[22:48]
• Bondi/DOJ internal dynamics, stonewalling: [25:48]-[29:37]
• Critique of DOJ tactics and PR stunts: [31:07]-[31:50]
• Political and legal consequences, possibility of further investigation: [33:57]-[34:56]
• Fallout within Trump’s base, ‘lame duck’ talk: [36:25]-[37:45]
• Bill Kristol’s historical context and significance: [39:07]-[43:43]

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Tone and Style

Ari Melber’s authoritative yet conversational delivery is maintained throughout, balancing legal analysis with a keen sense of political theater. Guests bring sharp, articulate perspectives rooted in experience with law, politics, and advocacy. Survivor voices and political dissenters are given respectful space, underscoring the gravity of the topic.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode marks a historic pivot in the struggle for accountability around Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes and political cover-ups. With Congress poised to override Trump’s stonewalling, bipartisan momentum reigns, exposing Trump’s weakening grip on the GOP and raising hope for greater governmental transparency—while also laying bare the enduring challenges of power, complicity, and justice at the highest levels.

Transcript

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And so let's start with the facts. The Trump administration has now had about 300 days in office and has refused to release any of the Epstein files in that time. Trump has also spent the better part of this year refusing to release the Epstein material. The issue has come up in many ways. He has been asked about it in public. He has been pressed about it by journalists, and he has, of course, watched as the Congress move towards wanting to do this. His DOJ can release these files within the law anytime. There may be some technicalities, victims names, grand jury material, certain things that are protected, but they have the material and they can release the bulk of it anytime. And they have it. So we know Donald Trump opposes actually releasing the files because he has not released the files. Sometimes this stuff gets pretty simple. There's also reporting that he specifically barred his attorney general from from releasing the files per axios. But even without those internal specifics, the buck stops with the president and he won't release the files. And that has been the state of play all year. And whether you follow the news all the time, daily news, watch tv, get it on your phone and Internet, or just check in occasionally, you probably are aware of that baseline. So you say, okay, Ari, got a big vote tomorrow. What's the big deal? How did we get here? Well, just remember, because Trump is now in retreat. So there has been some spin and some other talk, but remember the Trump secrecy. Don't release the files, don't do it, whatever you do. Was also backed by the co equal branch of government, where the Republicans control the House. And the Republican Speaker, Mike Johnson, didn't just oppose releasing the files. Right? That's the position. He also opposed, opposed and refused to ever schedule any vote on whether to release the files. If you follow politics, you've seen a lot of issues like this. There are issues relating to, for example, taking on corporate power or dealing with cleaning up money and corruption in politics. Things that a lot of people, well, more than half the country wants. And you don't even get a vote on it because they don't want to admit to you that they oppose the thing. That is actually pretty popular. And remember, many members of Congress had at least claimed to back Epstein transparency on the Republican side, that was true. Last year. During the campaign, a lot of the GOP was joining or sounded similar to Trump's claims that he was for the release. So refusing to hold the vote was unpopular. But that approach held for most of the year. It held until last week, which is why we're here now and why Trump is so rattled. Because there was a initially slow but methodical bipartisan bid to override Trump and Johnson. The strategy I'm telling you about, where they wouldn't allow the vote that we're now going to see tomorrow. And that bipartisan bid, led mostly by Democrats, but to their credit as well, some Republicans, built momentum. And then it gained even more support when a few House seats shifted. There was the coverage about when they were going to swear in a new member who was going to be the extra final vote. And Congress reached a rare feat. They toppled the Republican Speaker's floor schedule. They forced tomorrow's vote through this rare special petition, and that is now looking like tomorrow. And Trump fought that all year. Last week, he was still having a kind of series of public meltdowns and social media posts, still opposing the release and saying it was all a hoax anyway, but then contradicting himself by telling his own DOJ to investigate his opponents, but only them for any ties to the Epstein case, which he also said was a hoax and a nothing burger. Now, Donald Trump has proved effective at times at messaging and pr. He was a reality show host. He's won some campaigns, but sometimes people kind of overdo it with, oh, Trump is so skilled at everything. For some reason, we don't know whether it was a type of panic or fatigue or running out of ideas. But the PR last week wasn't very good. Saying it's a hoax, but now go investigate. It doesn't even make sense. The sentence collapses on itself. And saying that whatever there was in those files, he didn't want them out did not exactly make him look very confident or innocent, a point that many comics and many Internet memes has made. Tonight, we can tell Donald Trump is bracing for defeat tomorrow, that there will be a vote which they never wanted, and that they will lose the vote because they already have 218. And it's looking like they could lose even worse with a lot more Republicans openly defying Trump on the Epstein issue of sex trafficking. So now Trump is retreating, and you don't always see a headline directly like that. But Trump is making a U turn and he's surrendering rhetorically to those pushing the vote, which, again, is mostly Democrats. So even though Republicans control the White House and Congress, the Democrats pushed this to a point and recruited some Republican support where they've forced Trump to do a U turn in public to surrender, because the House Republicans are going to spurn him tomorrow. And not on a minor or random issue, but on an issue that Trump and his base MAGA podcasters and others said was the issue last year. So what's going on? I want to be very clear about this because there's a lot of spin on this topic. One, President Trump's retreat tonight shows the pressure works. He wants to get out of the unpopular position he holds. And the pressure, which came uniquely from both most of the Democratic caucus pushing this and some Republicans, including MTG and others that he has dealt with in the past and has said they're part of the MAGA movement. It has been too much for him and he's folded on the words. But two, Trump's words contradict themselves because he's failing to act. The Trump administration has the Epstein files. They won't release the Epstein files. This vote is Congress using its power to make Trump release the Epstein files. But if now, tonight, he claims. I just showed you the headline. That he actually supports that, then he could do that. Right now, he doesn't need to wait for a vote from Congress to force him to do the thing. So that's a really important baseline. And if you talk to people about this in the coming days, we're going to hear, I bet some back and forth on this. But ever focused on pr, Trump wants the headlines that might just parrot his words without covering the real headline, which I'm presenting to you, which is Trump, as of tonight, has not released the Epstein files, which means he's still opposed to releasing the Epstein files, even if he is so worried about tomorrow. A rejection, including from some of his party. We'll see. Can't predict. We'll see where they vote, but that's what he's worried about, that he wants to spin and say with words he supports something that he is not doing. That type of secrecy over a sex trafficking case, which Trump and his attorney general and FBI director had all claimed they would be the saviors and they turned out to be the people hiding it. That kind of double talk has angered even Republicans.

[D]

I stand with these women. I stand with rape victims. I believe the country deserves transparency in these files, and I don't believe that rich, powerful people should be protected. Mr. President, Representative Massey says he's concerned that the Epstein probe you are falling for could be a smoke screen to block the release of more miles. Is that the case?

[B]

Well, I don't want to talk about it because fake news, that's the pressure on tomorrow's vote. There's also the human impact, Epstein survivors speaking out.

[D]

Please remember that these are crimes that were committed against real humans, real individuals. This is not a political issue. This is not partisan. We're asking for you to stand with us now to release all of the files.

[B]

It's never been political for us. Tomorrow's vote could lead to more evidence coming out. And if the Senate takes up and passes this measure, the pressure only builds on Republicans there. They've ducked this issue because the attention has been on the House. That's where that rare measure was to override the Speaker. But GOP Senate leaders like Thune could be the next focus. They've been able to sit out most of this year with everyone keeping an eye on the House, but there's no automatic reason for that. The House, as I say, is where some of the action was. But either body can, of course, hold its own votes. The Senate Republicans have not been eager to do transparency on this. Meanwhile, there's tons of information in the Epstein emails that were just released. Epstein wrote a note to himself months before his death in prison that laid out the money laundering accusations that he saw against Trump. Saying that Donald didn't own very much. He represents his income as the gross receipts of his clubs. That means nothing at all. Zero. No income as we know it. He lists assets and their value, but not the corresponding loans against it. No net number. Hence meaningless. Now Trump's accounting approach has drawn heat for years, including in court, where he has appealed some of the past fraud cases against his businesses. Epstein wrote to Trump vet Bannon. Now you can understand why Trump wakes up in the middle of the night sweating when he hears you and I are friends. He wrote that a week before Epstein's arrest in 2019 in a case overseen by then the Trump DOJ. That is just one more email. When you have 20,000 emails, the big ones, the big names come first and a lot more coming through. And as with any credible investigation, journalistic or governmental, you have to go through and sift through it. The fact that Epstein said something doesn't make it true. At times he thought he was quietly commiserating and that might be the type of evidence investigators want to look at and corroborate. At other times, he may have been making bluster, threats and lies. He was not always, of course, an honest person. But what we see tomorrow, what's barreling told us, is the release of the files that Trump not only has fought to hide up until this moment, but that he's hiding now, even as he claims he would welcome Congress, forcing him to do what he won't do on the Epstein files. I have my Wiley and Gretchen Carlson here when we're back in 90 seconds.

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[D]

Well, yeah, I think that something that's working is that there's a broad support in the American public, including from Donald Trump's own base that is saying we want to see these too. Now why people want to see them and what they think is in them and what they think those files will help them learn and do is not the same thing. And I think we should be very clear about that. The bipartisanship though, does come from a place of a very broad base of Americans with very strong feelings about these being public. And that's the important thing here and whatever's in them. I think we're still gonna have a few fights about seeing.

[C]

I think that this has huge implications politically. This is the first time I can remember seeing President Trump having to reverse course and actually kowtow to members of Congress. I mean, how many times have we seen him primary out people or threaten that he's gonna do that if they don't agree with him? I think this is a major moment. I think it may give Republicans a spine to stand up against him on other deep down and in secret they tell people they disagree with. I mean this would be you're Gonna have a huge vote tomorrow. Republicans. It's gonna be a landslide. And the Senate's also gonna vote for it.

[B]

And you don't wanna say the emperor has no clothes. Cause in a story like this, we want everyone to just stay clothed and get to the bottom of the information. But it is a moment where the president of the emperor has no actual political bat to swing. As you say, he is retreating. He's also fighting openly with mtg, and they can talk about primaries, but the House can only lose two Republicans and keep their majority. So it's not like alienating her to the. She's a wild card to a degree that she doesn't want to vote for a Trump. Johnson Axes is smart. I want to play a little bit of that exchange, which is a big deal all weekend here. She was.

[D]

The most hurtful thing he said, which is absolutely untrue, is he called me a traitor. And that is. That is so extremely wrong. And those are the types of words used that can radicalize people against me and put my life in danger.

[C]

I mean, she also apologized for the political rhetoric that she's used in the past that has been violent. I mean, this is a new Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm not exactly sure why, but Donald Trump has been able to get away with calling people on his own side traitors. It's not working this time. And that's why I think that this is politically significant.

[D]

Well, and I want to just underscore because I think Gretchen's exactly right about it being politically significant. One part of the Marjorie Taylor Greene story is where she departed on subsidies for health premiums. Right. I mean, in other words, there was a cracking that was starting because Republicans were also concerned about how hard their base, their constituents were going to be hit by some of the things that Democrats themselves were fighting for, including in the shutdown. It created a lot of nervousness. But that issue she was also being outspoken on before this. But I do think the point is where he has departed from his own base. He has a problem. She has represented that base. Calling them names, not so helpful when they've been very clear that they want this transparency.

[B]

We've just been going through this over the few days since it all broke midweek. I want to read to more of the revelations that are in these emails. You have Trump ally Steve Bannon, who had this sort of link with Epstein, and they exchanged messages across 18 and 19. After, of course, Trump's first election. Bannon had left the White house in a 2018 exchange. Bannon shares a link to German media and says they are underestimating him and he's as dangerous as ever. Bannon writes, germans get it. To which Epstein replies, love it. Bannon says, pretty powerful. Epstein says we should lay down a strategy plan. And they would go back and forth like this, Maya. And what you see is that whether Epstein is bluffing because he was sometimes a bit of a con man and would insinuate himself in things, or whether they really relied on him, either way, you have someone who was at that point already convicted for a sex crime and accused of worse, and yet seemed to be close to the top of maga.

[D]

And this surprises us why, when we have a president who's elected after a tape where he admitted and bragged about how easy it was to sexually assault women and still got elected. So they had a lot of COVID I think, from their vantage point about what it meant to be as crass and gross as those exchanges represent. But I also want to say at that time in 2018, this is when Steve Bannon was going to Europe and they were talking about his Europe trip because he was working to unite extremists, including folks that we would call white supremacists and neo Nazis, as part of a global movement that really represents some of what we have seen, the very central dangers to our own democracy and to our own people, including when you hear Marjorie Taylor Greene talk about violence and how it puts her in danger.

[B]

And you both know your way around the law and you've both dealt with issues around harassment of women, mistreatment of women, and how common or normalized that can be. Kathy Ruemmler was a top Obama official and lawyer, and she was in these emails with him. This goes back always 2014, where she's emailing, most girls don't have to worry about this crap. Epstein replies, quote, girls, careful. I will renew an old habit. The Guardian writes, and this again implicates people we've seen in both parties and top of business and tech and some academia. The, quote, bantering, frivolous tone of so many of these emails applies. Epstein would have felt welcome as a member of, quote, polite society, receiving no social incentive to change his ways. Far from being ostracized as a sex offender, he was normalized. And so, Gretchen, beyond all the ways people have picked a certain enemy or opponent and looked at it through that prism, there's a larger question here over this decade period about the normalization of not just the worst sex crimes, which some people may not have known about. I wanna be clear early on, but clearly sexism.

[C]

And you have to keep in mind that a lot of these emails were being written at the height of the MeToo movement, which makes it even more alarming during that time, because people were talking about this consistently and constantly. I think I'll go back to what I've often said, which is that power supersedes party. You know, sexual power, sexual harassment, abusing women, it supersedes party. And this is a pure example of that. Where we're seeing Democrats and Republicans now. Listen to Donald Trump in the Oval Office again today. He's saying it's still a hoax, even though he's saying that they should vote on it now. But he's given the green light and back to the significance of this. He's basically said to John Thune in the Senate, go ahead, have everyone vote for this. Now, he didn't go as far as saying he's actually gonna sign it, but what would he do at this point?

[B]

Well, and like I said, sign it. He can release it. If he wants to do the thing, he can do the thing. And every day that he doesn't do the thing, he's against it. Since you mentioned it, I'll play this. And Maya, we are careful with how we broadcast things that are misleading. So I gave my introduction report, and I wanna again, remind people what he's saying is misleading. He's talking about a thing he's not doing and then says, sure, but someone's gonna have to make him do it. And we'll see if he actually signed it in law, as you mentioned. So this was today. Take a listen. Trump and the Oval, they could do whatever they want. We'll give them everything. Sure. I would let the Senate look at it, let anybody look at it, but don't talk about it too much.

[D]

Be transparent, but don't be transparent. I mean, that's really the message. And what he will. I don't know what he'll do, but I'm sure we're going to see him try to find ways to get minions in the Department of Justice to also do whatever they can to block turning over whatever they can, whether it's because a grand jury, which is not a lot of the documents, let's be very clear, it's a very, very, very small number of what was 100,000 pages of documents. But secondly, after he directed that they start investigating Democrats whose names were coming out of these emails. No, Republicans, and certainly not Democrats. But go after, by all means, weaponize the Department of Justice to go after people he doesn't like and people who are in another party, but whether or not and there's been speculation about whether he'll then try to have them say, well, we're investigating. And so in order to have the integrity of our investigation, I don't think it flies politically, I don't think it flies legally. I'm just saying that to say I think we will see a lot of dissembling from him after this vote.

[B]

Right. Which is why saying you want something that you're not doing doesn't go very far and whether a judge would find that credible when Pam Bondi wrote a memo saying there's nobody left to investigate. So there's a lot there. I want both of you know your way around the law and I want to turn to how the actual evidence we've gotten in the new emails really undercuts what the Justice Department's been doing, including with Maxwell. So our guests are with us. We're going to get into that next.

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[D]

The questions everyone is asking is why fight this so hard?

[B]

This might be a big smokescreen, these investigations to open a bunch of them to as a last ditch effort to prevent the release of the Epstein files. Misusing a new investigation of what the President calls a hoax is of course part of that problem, a potential cover up. I was just talking to Mile Wiley about it here today in our newsroom. We talked to other experts about it. That was Congressman Massie, one of the Republicans who stood up against Trump and his party for transparency. There's also a focus on Attorney General Bondi's role in how she has been caught misleading on this topic. She has reversed herself not once but twice and back in the day she was the one saying all of the stuff including a so called list would come out. The list of clients that went to the island has not been made public.

[A]

So if you're able to, you'll be. I'd certainly take a look at it.

[D]

Would you declassify the Epstein files?

[B]

Yeah, yeah I would. Will that really happen?

[D]

It's sitting on my desk right now.

[B]

Sitting on her desk. Then she said it wasn't. Then she said there was nothing else to investigate, not blackmail or any other issues related to the Epstein case. She wrote it down in that two page memo in July and boy a lot has happened since then but she wrote it down as the head law enforcement officer of the country paid by your tax dollars. A Trump insider now tells Axios it was Trump himself who told Bondi not to release the files, adding and this is how you know it's a real Trump insider. No shade, but we don't exactly know why, which is sort of a non denial curiosity. But the problem is given everything that has come down about this case, if the evidence helped you and you were under this level pressure, you would think you might release it because it helped you. And so there is a negative inference some have drawn in journalism. We try not to do that. So I'm reporting on the inference that others have said he looks Guilty. SNL and other comics have said, well, he's certainly not acting like someone who thinks that the files will help him. But whether you know why or not, we are getting past the point that it matters what Donald Trump thinks. He has been outmaneuvered. He has lost. He has lost control of the Republican House, he has lost control of the Republican Party. That we're often told he rules with an iron fist, and his Attorney general has been reduced to kind of dodging questions under oath.

[A]

There's been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

Showed people photos of President Trump with half naked young women. Did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him? You don't know anything about that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Pam Bondi is number one at doj. Number two is an attorney named Todd Blanche. He was previously a criminal defense attorney for Donald Trump. It is unusual to install such loyalists without so much prosecutorial experience at doj. He was not exactly someone who was considered a likely Attorney general or deputy in other Republican administrations. But then the question is, how is he going to serve? In other words, if despite that background, he had a sterling record, the respective judges and his colleagues, and was doing a good job, then a year in, roughly, we would report on how that was going. But it's the opposite. Mr. Blanche has sullied his own reputation as a lawyer. He's opened up questions about malfeasance or worse in any future DOJ that might review his actions by conducting what can only be called a type of non factual meeting with convicted sex offender sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, where he didn't use the evidence that we think he would now have based on just these emails, let alone the rest of the files, and instead elicited statements from her, which now we know from last week's emails were not her true contemporaneous belief. Because she said back in the day that Trump knew about the girl, spent time with the victim, et cetera, doesn't mean he committed a crime. But that was her baseline view and she contradicted it in this OD interview facilitated by Blanche. I think they were friendly like people.

[D]

Are in social settings.

[B]

I don't, I don't think they were close friends or. I certainly never witnessed the President in any of.

[C]

I don't recall ever seeing him in his house, for instance.

[B]

She brought that up. She didn't recall seeing Trump in Epstein's house, but Epstein said to her that Trump had been in his house. That was in the emails that we only Just got last week, 2011. Also the claims that a victim, name redacted, quote, spent hours at my house with Trump. Blanche is under so much pressure that he is responding in public. He says law enforcement didn't have the materials Epstein's estate hid for years. He's trying to blame what he acknowledges was an incomplete interview. He doesn't say the interview was great. He just says law enforcement didn't have the materials. And I would tell you as a reporter and lawyer, here's a big question. Who is law enforcement? Is that Blanche and his office? Is it the DOJ and the FBI? Because getting emails from the subject of a sex trafficking probe is one of the first things a prosecutor would do. And his statement is so broad, it again raises the same question we are putting forward tonight. But are Mr. Blanche and the Attorney General Bondi part of an ongoing misuse of the DOJ for a cover up? Maya and Gretchen are back with me.

[D]

Maya, it certainly does not make Todd Blanche look good, but whatever he knew or didn't know, first of all, he knew he was talking to a convicted felon who was convicted of very serious crimes. And why was someone so high up in the department going personally to have that interview in the first place? That is not normal.

[B]

Right.

[D]

It is simply not normal. And the only reason. And the President's former defense attorney. So it already looked bad from the beginning before we ever saw these emails. And to your point about what was consistent and inconsistent from those emails, whether he knew or not, why was he there? Now that he knows, it just also points to the point fact. Right. But it is very hard to swallow anything he is saying right now.

[B]

And I want to underscore it, Gretchen, because not everyone follows how these interviews work. He didn't say, hey, my interview is still great. He's acknowledging the interview as incomplete and just saying, well, I didn't have the materials to make it complete.

[C]

That's why this was not a legal interview. This was a PR stunt. This was dictated from above, I believe, from President Trump telling Todd Blanche to go down there. This was yet another PR thinking that doing this interview, Ghislaine Maxwell would clear Trump's name and that the rest of the country would say, oh, we don't need to hear anything else. We believe her. And I would like to add in that she's received all of this special treatment since then. She was moved to another prison where sex offenders are never moved. She's getting extra toilet paper and she's able to take yoga and all of these other things. That no other sex offenders can get. And when Trump has been asked every single time about whether or not he would pardon her, he has not given a definitive no. So I, look, I don't think at this point, I think there might be an insurrection to, if he actually went down that path with, with pardoning her at this point. He's in a jam now because he's actually going to have that bill in front of him to vote yes or no. And I believe that's going to come soon.

[B]

And I want to be clear, Maya, we don't know whether there are uninvestigated or uncharged individuals that should have been in a full investigation dealt with. And we certainly don't know why, as I credited Donald Trump is worried about this. It could be, I can imagine a scenario and take him out of it where a politician thinks that information about them would look really bad and topple perhaps their political career, but it doesn't mean that they committed crime A, B, C. Right. There's a whole set of possibilities for a politician that are different from the criminal standard. So it's possible that the investigation went as far as it went and didn't get anybody else, but a bunch of other people could still have their reputation sullied. And politics is a business where you're good until you aren't and your supporters stand by you until they don't. And we're all old enough to remember that. When George W. Bush at one point after attacks on the U.S. and wartime people said, gosh, he's really resilient until he wasn't. So when you look at this probe and the intensity of what looks like actions of a cover up, or at least what I would call misleading, suspicious actions by the Trump doj, what else does that tell us?

[D]

Yeah, he got something to hide. I mean, I'm like, look, this is his own team saying we don't know. Because what happens politically is that you also want to figure out where and how you get it out your way if there's something embarrassing in there. So you work on that. I mean, it's very, very unusual to go to this length because it makes you look guilty, whether or not you are of something, something that people are going to care about. But let's just go back to the fact that Donald Trump was very, very clear that he was willing to use conspiracy theories when it served him right. And now that it's not serving him, he's willing to abuse power to protect himself, which is what directing prosecutions against Democrats represents.

[C]

I'm not sure that the criminal investigation is over because you have to go back to the Florida sweet deal that they got, you know, years ago and that lawyer ended up being in the Trump White House the first time.

[B]

Acosta.

[C]

Yes. So, I mean, I'm not quite sure.

[B]

It wouldn't be criminally and anything's possible. I'm only referring to the July memo which claimed that it was fully closed and there was no one else chargeable. That was the position. But as you say, sure, it could be more than that. Gretchen, Maya, I want to thank you both across two blocks. Really important stuff with the Epstein vote tomorrow. There are warnings from inside maga. This is the end of the Trump administration. This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone. The vote tomorrow on the Epstein files may feel like Donald Trump's biggest problem right now, but it is not his only problem. There is pressure coming from inside maga. Trump on defense over these high prices which cannot be argued away. The Washington Post knows he's just, just looking at everyday items. Prices rise. People know it. Steve Bannon, who we quoted in a different context earlier tonight, says a lot of his base feels he's spending too much time on Palestine and not enough time on East Palestine, Ohio. If you recall, that was one of the messages people used to make against the Republican Party back in the Iraq war days. Republicans lost in the elections where everyone voted. Doesn't mean we know where the rest of the country would go. But the trends are bad in those off year elections we had two weeks ago. Nationally, approvals crashed to 36%. Now this is Trump's first year. He is coming off a win last year. Remember that is where Biden ultimately slumped to in year four, which is when things are supposed to usually worse. People are tired of you. You're a full blown, you know, end of the, end of the term. Well, he's there now. Now there's Tim Dillon who is a comic and sometimes they call a broadcaster a podcaster. He's been friendly with J.D. vance and others around the administration. He's friendly enough usually on air to MAGA to get those kind of interviews. Well, take the temperature on his podcast. This is the end of the Trump administration. This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, even his most ardent, ardent supporters show up to the White House like Laura Ingraham. She's kind of shocked, going, what the hell's going on? Now we'll start, you know, three years of talking about the ballroom. He will trail off. He will get older. He's going to. He's adorned the White House in gold. Epstein's going to suck the oxygen out of a lot of this. That is the view of a podcaster who was warm enough to MAGA to get a JD Vance interview. Knowing how these folks are, he may not get another one anytime soon. But one good thing about independent digital media, something we've noticed before, is some of these folks are a little less controlled than the GOP that had really bowed to Trump on this issue all year until now. We're going to bring in Bill Kristol, who not only has proven his own independence with this party, but who may someday take glasses tips from that trendy podcaster. I don't know, Bill, if you like those or not. The big, big ones. But Bill's back with us next. This is the end of the Trump administration. This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, podcasters talking about a lame duck Trump, Republicans breaking with him, at least on this Epstein issue. And we now to a longtime Republican official served in the White House who broke with Trump far earlier on a wider set of issues, but understands exactly what's happening. Bill Kristol, now editor at large of the Bulwark, founding director for Defending Democracies. Together, he writes, Trump's Epstein's humiliation grows in a new piece that says it may be more fruitful in the effort to weaken Trump to find and exploit fractures in maga, than to try to find moderates to step up. Welcome, Bill. What do you see happening here?

[A]

Thanks, Ari. Good to be with you. Look, on July 6th, at the end of the July 4th weekend, they put out that memo. Pam Bondi and Cash Patel, with President Trump's concurrence, or really I assume it his direction, trying to close the door on the Epstein matter. That was explicitly what they said they were doing in that memo. And the big story is four and a half months later that failed. And indeed it failed in stages. These things we always, you read about them in the history books and it's like the COVID up failed and you think there's this one moment, but in fact it's that sometimes it's a death by a thousand cuts and various leaks. It turned out there were other documents available, the birthday card. The Democrats did a good job of pushing the House Oversight Committee, sort of a surprise. Remember that late in July to request the emails, those will come out in various tranches. Then the Democrats moved on the discharge petition. They got four Republicans, Speaker Johnson desperately tried to keep the House out of session to avoid swearing in the 218th vote, but she was sworn in and now we have the discharge petition that's going to be passed overwhelmingly tomorrow. President Trump kind of threw in the towel I guess last night on that too. So it is a cover up that's unwinding. I don't think it means that the wheels have totally come off. It doesn't mean he's a ling duck tomorrow but it's a pretty big deal. I mean he's been pretty good at these things. He's dodged a million bullets and he survived and came back from January 6th. And to see the Republican House vote, I take it will be pretty overwhelming tomorrow to release these to at least try to force the justice to Barber to release these files. They have ways of dodging and maybe not fully complying. Of course then the Senate will go along, I think and I suppose President Trump will have to sign this legislation and pretend it's fine. Nothing to worry about here.

[B]

Well, it's remarkable and Republicans are often accused of going along with everything with Trump. But also a heck of a lot of them avoid the conflict. They avoid the public spatula that we've seen a few but that's sort of the MO And a lot of that goes into the machinery of government that frankly I think frustrates the public across the board. It's not just an anti Trump or Republican thing you can make. It's weird to compare the Epstein files to gun safety rules like the major common sense ones that don't say take away people's guns but should you have strong background checks are the mentally unwell can't get get major weapons. Americans support that as you know bill 80% but a lot of times you can't get a full vote so they duck it. That's the whole game. And here on the Epstein files you had a lot of Republicans who said hey, if you don't make me take an exact position I'll get out of the way. Which means they put the victims second. They put transparency second. But that was their thing. Now though, what you're telling me, if you're right, we saw an estimate from Ro Khanna of over 30 Republicans breaking you just theorized could be even more than that. I've seen reports in D.C. outlets of it could be veto proof. So yeah, he has to sign it because they could override the veto. We'll count it when it comes in. But what does that tell you Bill, about what happens when there's actual democracy votes and not just these DC Games to protect Trump or whatever his enablers.

[A]

Yeah, look, I think when 80% of the public wants to know about this thing, and part of his own base does, and I do think it's. What's kind of amazing is we've all been following and wondering, will the moderates, will the responsible Republicans, the grownups, the ones who privately tell us how much they don't like Trump, will they ever rebel? And they really haven't, honestly. Right. They confirmed Hegseth, they confirmed Robert F. Kennedy Jr. They confirmed Bondi, they confirmed Patel, they went along on the reconciliation bill. And then it turns out that Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert and Nancy Grace and Thomas Massie, MAGA loyalists, basically, but people who, to their credit, believe in something. And it's interesting, isn't it, psychologically, that the true believers turned out to be more willing to stand up to Trump than the people who don't actually believe in him, but who had kind of put their career first and just couldn't. Went along.

[B]

Well, again, it depends which item. But Liz Cheney was a true believer, and she advocated for Trump's reelection in 20. Had things gone differently, it all would have gone that way. History's funny, not to make it too much about you, but you have your critics on foreign policy, you have liberals that disagree with you about the size of government, whatever. But clearly from the jump, you said this person, Trump, is a danger to the country in a different way. And as a, quote, true believer, Tell me if I'm wrong. You stood up then.

[A]

Yeah, I guess I thought of myself as being like Marjorie Jelly Greene. But no, I do think it's interesting that. But in this case, they were so pro Trump and so much part of the cult, as we probably said, maybe a little unfairly. And as I say, they showed Lauren Boebert, who I don't know is a terribly distinguished member of Congress, to be honest, and seems to have whatever, has had some issues. She, they called her down at the White House, put her in the Situation Room with the attorney general and the FBI director, and she didn't buckle. I mean, how many others have buckled? How many others have we seen buckle over the last.

[B]

Over on time? I'm going to put up the glasses. We're over on time, but I like to pay off a reference. We are curious how you'd look in the glasses. We're out of time, Bill. We'll get into it another night. All right?

[A]

Next time. Next time.

[B]

Next time. Our thanks to Bill. We'll be right back. Thanks for watching the beat. You can always find me online across social media. If you have questions, hit me at any of those platforms and we will keep in touch. That does it for us.

[A]

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