← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump on Defense Over Democracy from Venezuela to Jan. 6
00:41:54
President Trump is openly vowing to seize Venezuela's oil, following the ousting of Nicholas Maduro. Plus, MS NOW's Ari Melber reports on the five year anniversary of the January 6 riot that came to define President Biden's transition.
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- [00:00]
Ari Melber
Bob Evans.
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Host/Interviewer
Creamy Mac and cheese and buttery mashed.
- [00:03]
Ari Melber
Potatoes are made for the moments you can't plan, like last minute school costumes, glitter explosions or when little Liam brings.
- [00:12]
Host/Interviewer
Three friends for dinner.
- [00:13]
Ari Melber
No plan, no problem. Say hello to plan B O B from Bob Evans because when you bring out the Bob, you can take comfort in knowing you'll always have something delicious on the table, no matter what the day brings. When you need comfort, bring out the Bob. Available now in your refrigerated section.
- [00:31]
Host/Interviewer
Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. There is a lot going on, but today marks something significant. Five years since the January 6th attack, later ruled by the courts in a convicted sedition, which was the biggest thing going on five years ago tonight. I bet you remember where you were that night, the days after it uprooted a long tradition of the peaceful transfer of power in the United States because Donald Trump had lost the election. President Elect Biden was coming into office and the violence perpetrated by the people later convicted who were summoned there by Donald Trump meant we didn't have an actual peaceful transfer. It took what had been rhetoric and later punished in court as defamatory lies and Trump's big lie and turned it into crime and action, all because so many people took action, including criminal violence against police on under the claim or the belief that Trump didn't actually lose the election, he lost five years later. Much has happened and we are also approaching the one year mark of Donald Trump's second term. And that one year mark is also the anniversary of the sweeping pardons he issued. Not for some on those days, not for say, a few people where you could have looked at their individual case or even people who didn't actually carry out violence, although that would be itself controversial given that they stormed the Capitol committing crimes against the Congress, the United States itself. But he issued the sweeping pardons for everyone, the violent actors, the people convicted of sedition, people who had long, long prison terms left to serve. He freed them. And so the split screen moment of our time at the Capitol tonight is Trump supporters Actually returning to the scene of the crime. We've all heard about how you shouldn't return to the scene of the crime. That's why that's a cliched term. But they're doing it because unlike any other president in modern history, they are backed in their past convicted crimes by the sitting president. We don't need to raise our voices or have a lot of emotion or rhetoric to just underscore how wrong that is. The person who is supposed to carry out the faithful execution of the law, supporting breaking the law by people who would have ended our democracy if their crime spree worked. So those pardoned rioters back in town, House Democrats holding the other side of the ledger. A hearing about the rule of law and of course still dealing with the fact that the sitting president has the most anti police agenda in modern history. Having pardoned and freed all those people who were otherwise going to be punished for their violent crimes against police. It is a fact that Donald Trump is the most soft on crime anti police president in his second term of any in the modern era. The hearing spoke with the actual Capitol Police who risked their lives that day. There were other members of Congress involved and there was even someone who reflected on their crime.
- [04:11]
Ari Melber
Donald Trump and far right extremists in.
- [04:14]
Host/Interviewer
Congress have repeatedly attempted to rewrite history and whitewash the horrific events of January 6th.
- [04:25]
Max Boot
We gather to continue to uphold our oath to support and defend the Constitution.
- [04:31]
Host/Interviewer
Pardoning criminals who severely beat me and.
- [04:33]
Jack Nickas
My fellow officers that day is completely unacceptable.
- [04:36]
Madeleine Dean
I am truly sorry from the bottom of my heart for being part of the mob that put you and so many officers in danger.
- [04:51]
Host/Interviewer
That's today living history, as they say. As for the march by the once convicted, now pardoned convicts, that included one of the leaders who had shown through basically their actions and now their further lack of remorse, as well as the evidence laid out by the DOJ after January 6. Enrico Tarrio has showed that this wasn't some spontaneous riot as we were first told as the COVID stories went, because people planned it and organized it and planned formations and met in secret and always had plans to go in and try to do by force and violence what they could not achieve at the ballot box because Trump had lost. The proud boys veteran spoke today.
- [05:37]
Ari Melber
Would you do anything differently if you could?
- [05:40]
Host/Interviewer
The problem is I wouldn't do anything.
- [05:42]
Ari Melber
Differently because I didn't do anything wrong.
- [05:45]
Host/Interviewer
Am I guilty of celebrating what happened on the day of January 6th? Of course, the President has said in.
- [05:50]
Madeleine Dean
The past our proud boys stand back and stand by Are you guys standing by the president?
- [05:56]
Host/Interviewer
We've always stood by the President. I've said that since day one. And on it went. Now it is easy, with time in general, to forget how things felt and occurred at the time, the actual facts. And in our current era, with a president who's been caught lying by fact checkers more than any other modern politician, and a lot of corporate pressure to spin or minimize or distort what you hear, a censorship campaign, the second term, as well as the whole weird fake news, tech AI world we're in, where people see stuff and they say, is this real? Is that real? I just want to remind you tonight, and this is a fitting time to deal in facts, that we know what happened that day, and we know how the members of both parties viewed what happened, and the Democrats have been consistent about that. And people can debate the politics of all this if they want. But even the Republicans, who were, of course, talking, in essence, to their own Republican leader in Trump, who'd lost, and some of the fans who clearly were upset, the Republicans at the time were then unanimous about how wrong Trump and the insurrection actions were.
- [07:07]
Max Boot
This failed insurrection only underscores how crucial the task before us is for our republic.
- [07:15]
Ari Melber
We had police officers, the men and women that we walk by every single day, that guard the doors and we say hello to, out there with riot gear, getting spit on and attacked. All I can say is, count me out.
- [07:27]
Host/Interviewer
Enough is enough. You just heard from senior Republicans, not just some random grouping. You have the Senate leader at the time, you have Marco Rubio, who was very clear that he said he was against that attack on police that Trump had fomented. Now, of course, you know he's helping Trump with anything he wants as a key top Cabinet member. And Lindsey Graham, who was just on the plane with Trump, defending the Venezuela actions and other things they said, count them out. Now, of course, we know what's happened since then, but it's actually deeper than that. And this is important in a time where people, your government, is sometimes lying to you, and other entities, including powerful corporations, are sometimes kind of doing what they can to just stay out of Trump's way and try to get through the next three years. Reality, though, matters. Don't let them trick you about that. And so if we need evidence of just how obviously wrong this was at the time after it occurred, and I just showed you what the top Republicans had said, and the courts were looking at this, and the next administration was expected to have a normal, lawful doj, which of course would investigate and potentially prosecute as they did these crimes at the Congress. Even Donald Trump felt the need to publicly say something that you almost can't imagine him admitting to now today, that he viewed that attack, he said he claimed as heinous, outrageous, lawless, violent mayhem that he opposed. Take a look.
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Ari Melber
I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem.
- [09:05]
Host/Interviewer
To those who engage in the acts.
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Ari Melber
Of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country.
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Host/Interviewer
And to those who broke the law, you will pay. He was lying. He was trying to protect himself. He had seen his insurrection fail and he knew that within two weeks he would really be out of office. And he knew as someone who's tangled in the law before, that he could be in trouble himself. And later, he was, of course, indicted for a whole series of crimes, legally presumed innocent. He was not convicted, as you know. But think about that. Donald Trump, to save himself, was claiming that it was bad and wrong and they would be punished. And yet in a hypocritical, hypocritical, I should say, in a hypocritical development that we've all lived through and now has become normalized for some, not only did he back off saying they should be punished, he freed them all. Trump was impeached by the House a second time. And it's easy to look back with hindsight and say, oh, well, we know what happened. But he may have had some level of worry that if he were actually convicted in the Senate, he could never run for office again. And then remember, those trials wouldn't have been delayed forever and who knows what would have happened. So even if you think that was a small risk, it wasn't zero. And he was out to save himself. There were over a thousand total convictions pursuant to that day. Special Counsel Smith indicted Trump recently testified about it and concluded, at least from the DOJ's view, that Trump had that multi part plan to overturn the election and that the violence was a part of it that he benefited from. Jamie Raskin, a key member of that committee, writes in the Times now that we're still caught up in a struggle between forces who are willing to use authoritarian violence and those who stand up nonviolently for our Constitution. Neither side can claim victory. Yet he reminds America, because it's still very much Jan 6th in America. That is the standoff tonight. It is a big deal no matter what. But it also comes after a weekend where Donald Trump showed his complete lack of support, interest or even claim for democracy abroad, which is no surprise when you remember that five years ago he was the leader trying to stop democracy right here at home. We have a special guest on this important story right now. Democratic Congressman Madeleine Dean served as the January 6th impeachment manager. That was for the second impeachment after, after the January 6th attack. Thank you for being here. I wonder if first you might share any of your reflections just on hearing and seeing that video again of both the Republicans, your colleagues, but also the president claiming at the time, Donald Trump, that these were heinous acts of violence and people should pay.
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Madeleine Dean
Well, I thank you, Ari, for being sure to cover and remember this day. We have to continue to remember this day and call it out for the atrocious insurrection incited by a sitting president, that it was an attack on this citadel, this seat of power that is such an important representation of American strength and democracy and justice. I was here five years ago. I was up in the gallery with many other members and actually members of the press as well, when all hell broke loose. I was also in the hearing today and very glad to hear the testimony of many folks. I won't spend one minute on those who came to commemorate their violent acts who have been pardoned by the president of the United States. I won't spend a minute on them. What I will spend a minute on are the heroes, the police officer, Capitol police officers, municipal police, ultimately the National Guard and others who came to save us, to protect us from a mob that the president invited, he incited. Then he sent them to the Capitol, lying to them all along, saying, I'll be there with you. I'll go alongside with you. And of course he did not. And then when they broke in, using Trump flags, Confederate flags, American flags to beat Capitol police officers and hunt down Speaker Pelosi, his own vice president, what did the president do? He sat for 187 minutes as his team implored him to call off the violence, as his family members implored him. 187 minutes. That is unforgivable. And for him to come in day one of this second term, shame on him, forgiving, pardoning more than 1500 people for their crimes against this country. Police officers lost their lives. The president's trying to whitewash history. He can't do it. He can't by pardoning them somehow pardon himself. It's a grotesque act by a very small president.
- [14:10]
Host/Interviewer
I hear you. When you look at how pressure works, his concern about the second impeachment, his concern that I mentioned of future legal liability. It did seem to affect him. We hear a lot of, you know, trolling or touting about how, oh, maybe the law doesn't matter. Do you see any lessons there that the Democrats who even had a debate, why bother impeaching someone who's on the way out anyway, et cetera. You remember that keeping up the pressure for the rule of law does matter, even against people who've proven they don't personally care about it.
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Madeleine Dean
I always believed it mattered. It was really probably the solemn, saddest high honor of my service here that Speaker Pelosi asked me to serve alongside Jamie Raskin and seven others as an impeachment manager on impeachment too. For this President. We always knew the risk of not being able to get the vote. We had the facts, we had the evidence. It was so clear that this President was guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors under the Constitution. And we focused in on incitement to insurrection. We didn't do a laundry list of all of the crimes of this President. We did one incitement to insurrection. I remember being in that safe room after we were hauled out in our gas masks and looking up the word insurrection, Ari, because I thought I've studied about insurrection, but I'm pretty sure I've never been in one. We were literally in an insurrection because of a President who couldn't stand to lose. And I really fault the leaders who originally stood up. Mr. McCarthy stood up outraged at the behavior of the President, calling him culpable. Mr. McConnell, as we prosecuted the case in the Senate, it was staggering to me to see him stand during the vote and say not guilty and then within minutes with a prepared speech, then say the President is responsible. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth. Any one of them could have turned this around and this President would not have been President again. Shame on them.
- [16:17]
Host/Interviewer
You mentioned that that day. I think we do have a photo pulled here of you and others in the House gallery with the gas masks and the level of protection and precaution had to be taken given that that attack. I. I've only got 30, 40 seconds left. What do you say to Americans going forward here?
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Madeleine Dean
Never forget if we forget, if we allow this President and the speaker of the House. By the way, he put us in a basement meeting room. He declined four different requests for rooms for this hearing today. Never forget. We won't forget. And also listen to the testimony and you just featured it of a woman I only met today, 72 year old Idaho woman, her name is Pamela. Oh, I want to get it right. I'm forgetting it. But Ms. Pamela from Idaho and I had the chance to meet her. She was here and she was pardoned by the President. She was convicted. She was sentenced to 60 days. She was offered a pardon by the president. And you know what she did? She declined it. What? Amazing woman of humility and courage to publicly say, I was wrong, I was guilty of this crime. I will not accept the pardon. And she sat there and apologized to all Capitol Police officers and she said she won't rest until the plaque is up and the Capitol Police officers get their due. So to America. The fabric of America is very strong. And these weak courtiers around the president will not succeed as they are harming many, many Americans right now.
- [17:54]
Host/Interviewer
Congresswoman Dean, thank you for everything you've shared with us tonight. We appreciate your time. Thank you. Absolutely. Later tonight we have James Carville with a lot going on. Looking forward to that. We have a fact check on the DOJ breaking the Epstein law, something that Trump wants to go away but isn't, and the gambling on the oil imperialism when we're back in 90 seconds. Sling is the live TV service that.
- [18:21]
Ari Melber
Puts you in charge.
- [18:22]
Host/Interviewer
Choose your plan. Orange for sports and entertainment favorites, blue for news and reality. Or select for the essential. Only pay for the stuff you actually watch and pause your subscription anytime. Because paying for TV or not watching, that's just rude. No long term contracts, no nonsense.
- [18:38]
Ari Melber
Pick your plan, add what you want.
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Host/Interviewer
Sling lets you do that. Visit sling.com to learn more.
- [18:46]
Ari Melber
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- [19:16]
Madeleine Dean
Can make it possible.
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Ari Melber
So I always dreamed of having a.
- [19:18]
Host/Interviewer
Man cave, but the wife doesn't like it.
- [19:21]
Ari Melber
What if I called it a woman cave?
- [19:23]
Host/Interviewer
Okay, so let's not do that, but add some relaxing lighting and a comfy IKEA hofburg ottoman. And now it's a cozy retreat. Nice. A cozy retreat. Man cozy retreat, sir. Okay. Find your big dreams, small dreams and cozy retreat dreams in store online at ikea.us dream the possibilities. Trump has been vowing to seize Venezuela's oil following the Maduro operation. And this is something he related to our colleague Joe Scarborough, who Reported on a new conversation with President Trump.
- [20:01]
Ari Melber
I asked him, Mr. President, when you.
- [20:02]
Host/Interviewer
Say, quote, we're going to run everything, it obviously causes deep concerns because of the disaster in Iraq.
- [20:10]
Ari Melber
The president's response, Joe, the difference between Iraq and this is that Bush didn't keep the oil.
- [20:19]
Host/Interviewer
We're going to keep the oil. Striking admission. Bush denied that oil was the key or even a major motive for the Iraq war because admitting that would have been a scandal. This is the kind of thing that fact checks itself and is laughable if it weren't so serious. Here's Jon Stewart.
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Ari Melber
We can't even be conspiracy theorists now. I think they did it for the oil. Yeah. No, I did it for the oil. Is there any other reason? Can you give us anything? There's a lot of issues. Human rights violations, political prisoners down in Venezuela. We could certainly free them and improve the lives of dissidents. Are you going to demand that Delsey.
- [21:05]
Host/Interviewer
Rodriguez let opposition figures return or free any political prisoners?
- [21:10]
Ari Melber
We haven't gotten to that yet. Right now what we want to do is fix up the oil, fix up the country.
- [21:17]
Host/Interviewer
Having gotten to that, I guess the oil plans are more important than the actual Americans, who, because of Maduro's rule, are under unlawful detention, according to many experts. The Wall Street Journal reported a month back, Trump did give oil executives some sort of hint, saying get ready. But tapping the oil reserves in Venezuela will require planning and investment for years. American oil companies are wary of reentering. They've already been through this. Trump suggests reimbursing the companies. How does that sound? A bailout for oil companies? Unreal. There are also fears about how Trump sees this as a positive, even as Americans are recoiling from the policy, the target on Cuba, as the Post puts it, European leaders rallying about and against the idea that you could seize Greenland or other sovereign territories. Here's Stephen Miller. We live in a world in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. These are the iron laws of the world. But are you saying since the beginning of time, we have a complete embargo on all of their oil and their ability to do commerce?
- [22:29]
Ari Melber
So the United States is in charge.
- [22:30]
Host/Interviewer
The United States is running. So the country, during this transition period.
- [22:34]
Ari Melber
You invaded the country. We took, went into the country and we seized the leader, leader of Venezuela. Damn straight we did.
- [22:44]
Host/Interviewer
Damn straight. I've told you. To understand this story and where we're going, we do actually need to understand the follies of the past that even Donald Trump, for political reasons, maybe once claimed he understood regime change, nation building, endless wars. I have two very smart dialed in guests on this exact point. Next, I'm joined by Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, also with the Washington Post, and Jack Nickas, the Mexico bureau chief for the New York Times, where he's led coverage of Latin America and really fronted a lot of the reporting on this whole operation. Max, your view on Jon Stewart's point that what was once a scandalous conspiracy theory admission is now Trump's stated reason?
- [23:37]
Max Boot
Yeah, it's pretty crazy, Ari. In some ways, we've gone from neoconservatism 20 years ago during the war in Iraq to neocolonialism now in the war on Venezuela. And you can make the case that neocons, and that was a tendency I was associated with at the time, maybe had an excess of idealism, thinking they could implant democracy in the barren soil of Iraq. But Trump is absolutely devoid of any idealism whatsoever. It's all completely cynical. It's basically being sold. And I think it really is just a resource grab. He thinks he can use the US Military to go around the world and to grab other countries mineral resources. And in this case, he's trying to do it without occupying Venezuela, basically by blackmailing the Maduro regime, minus Maduro now led by Maduro's handpicked vice president. He's basically saying, we will continue this blockade of Venezuela until you give us the oil. So what he's basically threatening Venezuela with is complete poverty, possibly famine, horrible conditions for the people of Venezuela, unless their government agrees to some kind of concessions to the US with their oil industry. This is not how I would expect a country like the United States of America to be behaving. This is how countries like China and Russia behave. It's. It's just so frustrating and appalling, especially when you can see the case for arresting Madero. He was actually a bad guy who was oppressing his own people. But the people of Venezuela don't want Madero being replaced by his minions. That's not what they're asking for.
- [25:13]
Host/Interviewer
Jack, what's important to you, based on the reporting you're doing from the region.
- [25:18]
Jack Nickas
I think the point Max just made at the end there is really critical, is that the Maduro regime is still in control in Venezuela. The people who still were running the country are still running the country today. In fact, there was a large march in Caracas, including Venezuelan government officials broadcast on state television that was calling for Maduro's release. The new Interim leader Delsey Rodriguez went on television and said, we are running the country. And there is also at the same time, a crackdown on anyone who is supporting the capture of Maduro. So there is essentially been a emergency, state of emergency put out. There are government checkpoints, there are searches of citizens, cell phones. There has been the detainment of at least two people who were celebrating the capture of Maduro. And so the question of human rights does not seem to be within the White House's purview right now. It does seem to be about the oil. And that may be because you think to Saudi Arabia, this is an ally of the United States, a country that is a big provider of oil. Human rights doesn't seem to be much of an issue in those dealings with that country.
- [26:31]
Host/Interviewer
Facts, Max. If you told Americans going into the holiday break that we were going to go try to run a country double the size of Iraq, they wouldn't be into it. And if you ask them who was running Venezuela or where it is, with all due respect to everybody, I hope learning as much as possible wouldn't be top of mind, because this has not been something Americans want on the left or the right or a geostrategic point of interest. And Donald Trump has his hands full at home. Ironically, this was the arguments he used to make. Deal with prices, inflation, quality of life, and don't be distracted by things abroad unless they are core security interests. Some of that is informed in the jokes that are going around. I mean, this thing, we don't know yet how it plays, but a lot of folks aren't into it this week other than the respect for the army did what it was asked to do without any American casualties. Great. But the policy is up for debate. And here's how late night is hitting it. Take a look, Max. He's gonna run Venezuela.
- [27:32]
Ari Melber
He can't even run the country he runs.
- [27:35]
Host/Interviewer
This is like if JCPenney decided to buy Sears. For 10 years, he's been promising this plan for healthcare. Now he's running another country that I guarantee you he could not find on a map. It's historic. It was the first war ever launched from a table next to an omelet bar.
- [27:51]
Ari Melber
Evidently, when he says America first, he means alphabetically.
- [27:57]
Host/Interviewer
Max.
- [27:58]
Max Boot
Yeah, I don't. I don't see this huge groundswell of support in this country for running Venezuela. That is for sure. And I think a lot of Trump's own MAGA base is feeling pretty betrayed because, again, this is not what they expected from a guy who said he was not going to engage in nation building, that he was going to be the president of peace, that he was going to mark his success by all the wars he ended rather than the ones that he started. So this is kind of a very different foreign policy, and I think a lot of people expect it. And as you said, there's also a huge question mark about what any of this means. Now, obviously, there is also some triumphalism and chest beating and appreciation of the exploits of Delta Force and the military. And we can all appreciate the prowess of the U.S. armed forces. But what is the end game here? What is the exit strategy? Where is this going? And as you pointed out, Ari, you know, he's top, is talking about running Venezuela, but without actually having any US Troops on the ground, whereas Secretary of State Marco Rubio is saying, oh, no, we're not actually going to run it. We're basically going to blackmail them into doing what we want. So it's very much unclear what our actual policy is. But again, it's hard. And despite the fact that, you know, the capture of Madero may be a good thing in the long run because, again, he's a bad guy who should, you know, face justice for his crimes. But this is embroiling us in another regime change operation in a country where we don't have a vital national interest. And it's hard. And bad as Madero was, it's hard to see what was the pressing American national security interest in overthrowing him and trying to take charge of Venezuela. Even if you want the oil, it's going to be decades and it's going to take billions of dollars on investment before Venezuela can ramp up oil production significantly. So there's not going to be any big economic payoff, as Trump is suggesting.
- [29:44]
Host/Interviewer
Jack, given that you've been reporting on all the reaction, I'm going to put up on the screen what the White House and Trump have said to the region F around and find out a sort of a crude taunt, if you don't know. Now you know, a misplaced reference from Biggie Smalls. The US Is in charge and will run everything as we've discussed. And then threatening Maduro's current interim replacement. How's that being received?
- [30:10]
Jack Nickas
Well, in Latin America or by the Venezuelan opposition? I mean, I think everybody in Latin America. Yeah, well, across the Western Hemisphere, there is a serious concern about the rhetoric that's coming out of Washington right now. And I think that's understandable given the fact that, you know, one day after, you know, capturing Maduro, he started Talking about Cuba might be next, Colombia might be next, we need Greenland. He talks about maybe we should do strikes in Mexico. So this is something that I think across Latin America there is a lot of serious concern about what it means for their sovereignty because there is a dark history of the United States intervening across the region and basically treating them as colonies in some ways depending on the decade. Now, what is also interesting is that going back to Max's point about the people supporting this or not, I think that it's important to know that even the Venezuelan opposition, I'm speaking to the coalition, you know, around Maria Corinne Machado and other folks like that, they were obviously lobbying hard for the capture of Maduro. But now they are very confused about what happens next because there is not conversations about elections, there's conversations about oil. And so even. And they see that still in control in the Venezuelan government are the people that Maduro put in place. And they seem to be getting pushed aside. So even among them there is not much support. However, there has been support from some pockets of Latin America, I should note places like Argentina, El Salvador, Ecuador. These are some of the countries that are now run by right wing leaders. And there has been a rightward shift across Latin America, potentially because of Trump's influence. You look to Honduras, just last month, a right wing leader won the election just by several thousand votes. And two days before the election, Trump came in with a last minute endorsement. And so that may have tipped the scales there as well.
- [32:08]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah, no, exactly what we wanted to learn. And I know you as bureau chief down there, you're tracking a lot of these countries and that's interesting, the wider context you give and that there's the politics within these countries left to right. And then there's the larger question of territorial integrity, which Max Boo reminded us. Do we want to live in a mafioso world order where people are being shook down and countries are being leveraged for resources? World War I, World War II show why we tried to move away from that great power politics, if you'll permit me to simplify. Jack and Max, thanks to both of you. And we'll be checking in with you both in the days ahead. There's also new heat on the Trump DOJ as they blow through the second Epstein deadline. They are in violation of this law. We have an accountability report on that tonight. But next is James Carville going to get into all of it. When we return.
- [33:05]
Ari Melber
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- [33:24]
Host/Interviewer
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- [34:17]
Madeleine Dean
So the next time you have a.
- [34:18]
Host/Interviewer
Home project, leave it to the pros.
- [34:20]
Madeleine Dean
Get started@angie.com.
- [34:28]
Host/Interviewer
Happy New Year. James Carble is here and we are inside. I'm told the Larry David window for still saying Happy New Year. Welcome, sir.
- [34:36]
Ari Melber
Thank you. Happy New Year to you. Glad to be. Glad to be starting out on a good foot.
- [34:40]
Host/Interviewer
Yes, sir.
- [34:40]
Ari Melber
A bad foot should say, well, let's.
- [34:44]
Host/Interviewer
Get your views on it. I want to get a couple topics in, but I'll start with the flash polling. And before I put this number on the screen, I'm just going to remind everyone, well, it's there, but we'll come back for a second. James When I studied political science in college, they taught the rally around the flag effect. They taught that in general, when you have any conflict abroad, you initially get way more support for it. And then it takes longer, as we all know, from Iraq and Vietnam, to see how people feel about it. And a lot of times it crashes. Well, ain't no rallying around the flag yet. Now we'll go and pop it up. No spoilers. I think people get where I'm going. A third of the people say they just don't know about this thing. About a third oppose it, and about a third, which is underneath Trump's sort of core base of 39% say they approve. That's a, that's a tough start. And I want to put that fact out and then show you how many of the Republicans claiming to cheer Donald Trump's war policy are already on record Saying he wouldn't be good at this kind of thing anyway. Take a look.
- [35:54]
Ari Melber
I don't think he has a clue about anything. Every administration has been saying he's a threat to our country. He's a bad guy. This is the first guy that's actually done something about it. I would much more prefer not to turn over the party to a con artist like Donald Trump. Not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interests. He's putting our soldiers and diplomats at risk. He's empowering the enemy. His ass is in jail where he deserves to be. And every president has said the same thing, but he didn't.
- [36:29]
Host/Interviewer
What's your breakdown?
- [36:30]
Ari Melber
James Graham is always good for a good laugh. I mean, that guy is the greatest political pretzel I've seen in all of my time in politics. I mean, he really is. He can get himself all contorted into God knows what not. But that's not the question here is people are scattered just because what are they doing? The head meeting at Mar a Lago with all execs. If you give me a billion dollars, I'll do anything you want me to. Now he's notifying all companies, giving him prior notice that they could do something. Venezuela he's talking about. We're going to do all this. Look at what happened at that meeting that was publicly reported. And as I recall, you and I talked about that on this very show when he met with all of the. A guy by the name of Hal Hamm who's a big Oklahoma all guy, put the whole meeting together. Well, I'll tell you who's not involved in this operation in any way. Is any shookirk in the United States. Anybody that thought they were voting for Donald Trump because he cared about their lives, they cared about their cost of living or their wages or their health care or anything else. You're not part of this deal, junior. You just stay out on the outside and look in and the whole company is going to cut their deals and that's just what's going to happen. And people are two thirds of the country that doesn't like this or is on the verge of not liking it. It's pretty clear.
- [37:59]
Host/Interviewer
And so Democrats in your view should hammer that or say what?
- [38:04]
Ari Melber
Well, I think we should certainly hammer who benefits from this operation. We're doing all this. Who's going to be the winner is a deputy sheriff and some rule. I will going to be the winner. Here is a dental hygienist And Western Montana going to be the winner here? I don't think so. You're not. There are no shoe clerks in this poker game and you're not in it. It's not going to affect your life. In fact, it could very well adversely affect your life because we're saying international order doesn't matter. Anybody could look, if it was legitimate to invade a corrupt and an attempted authoritarian nation, and we better get troops on San Francisco and Boston and all up and down the east and west coast, because we would be ripe for invasion if somebody wanted to overturned a massively corrupt regime, which is, in my opinion, which we have here right this minute. And I think it's unfolding right in front of us.
- [39:04]
Host/Interviewer
We mentioned the New Year. We're starting with this. But Trump was ending the year with problems in the real economy and inflation, with Republicans revolting on more than one issue. Revolting against him with Epstein, where he, of course, had the huge loss and then ended the year breaking the law. And he has said he's aware of it. You catch him sometimes. He's, you know, he's blunt and he's alluded to the fact that he's frustrated and they lost the elections off year. Here's a brief sound of him telling Republicans, you know, hey, why don't people like what we're doing? Take a look.
- [39:41]
Ari Melber
But I wish you could explain to.
- [39:43]
Host/Interviewer
Me what the hell's going on with the mind of the public, because we have a.
- [39:48]
Ari Melber
We have the right policy.
- [39:52]
Host/Interviewer
Referencing the public, not being happy with Republican policies. And so, James, as a political person going into the midterms, do you view this New Year war push, which Trump clearly wants to continue threatening multiple countries, as a reality that Democrats have to deal with if they want to turn the focus back to Epstein or health care or what have you so you.
- [40:16]
Ari Melber
Can do this exercise at home? The number of mentions of Epstein in the press the seven days prior to this Venezuela incursion, and in the number of Epstein mentioned the seven days following the incursion, I guarantee you it looks like the Mariana Trench. And in his mind, this is Operation Epstein diversion. And that's worked better than anything, and that's for certain. And I mean, he's doing this for a lot of reasons. One is to get the political heat off of him, because every time you turn around, literally, I think they said they found 2 million more documents or whatever, and this is just going to keep coming. He knows he's going to lose in November. He knows. And he's saying the Democrats are Going to. Of course the Democrats are going to investigate you. Why wouldn't it? And he just closing in on him and what I'm fearful of. And I think everybody should be today, it's Venezuela. I don't know. They're talking about Greenland and Mexico. Who knows what they'll do to try to save him and try to get between the Epstein scandal and Donald Trump, which is going to be hard to do.
- [41:27]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. We heard from the congresswoman tonight about Jan6. That was our top story. Anyone who cares about America and the rule of law and democracy can mark this. Although we know politically Trump has tried to retract what he once said, which is that this was a heinous, terrible day. I want to play a little bit more of that testimony that we actually heard today by this individual, Pamela Hemphill, who declined the Trump pardon. Here's what she said today.
- [41:57]
Madeleine Dean
I want the Capitol Police to know how truly grateful I am to them and how deeply sorry I am. I can't believe people are still disrespecting you and trying to lie about January 6th. I will do everything I can to stop the lies.
- [42:27]
Host/Interviewer
James, is there a political war over history here? Does it matter? And who's winning.
- [42:36]
Ari Melber
Matters? There is a war and the good guys are winning the war, period. Full stop. Look at every election we've had. Look at every poll. Look at where Trump is. We're going to have a massive win in November. That is going to happen. They're not winning this. And it's. Trump wants to understand what's happening to him. I'll tell him right now, we're not a cruel people. Well, we're not a lawless people. All right. And you're not doing anything to help any American get followed. You've added three and a half trillion dollars in debt, all to give people like Paul Singh and Harold Ham a big tax cut. And people don't like that. And that's not who the United States is. And you don't understand that. But you're going to. You're getting taught that. And you're going to get taught that very authoritatively come November of 20. That's my message.
- [43:31]
Host/Interviewer
There you have it. Message received. And we'll follow up on it with you either way, James. Okay. James Carville, thank you, sir. Happy New Year.
- [43:39]
Ari Melber
Thank you.
- [43:39]
Host/Interviewer
Last time I can say. We'll see you soon. James mentioned the Epstein coverage and whether it's fading. Well, we actually have an update in our next block on the illegal activities of the Trump DOJ on a second Epstein front. I'll explain next. The Trump DOJ is breaking the new Epstein law in two ways. They haven't released enough of the files as I'll explain, but there's a second separate deadline that they've also violated and blown through. Saturday was the deadline for when the DOJ had to explain any ongoing redactions to its files. This is part of what Trump signed and agreed to provide Congress with a list of government officials and politically exposed individuals named in the files. That would mean it was a way to prevent games around redactions. They didn't do it. Federal officials also admit they have millions of Epstein documents, so they've actually released less than 1% of the total files. You may recall that is a point we first highlighted in the opening days as Todd Blanch and others at DOJ basically admitted they're breaking the law. That's bad for doj. A top Democrat on this warning of the repercussions. I just want to remind folks that every person at justice who violates this law is guilty of obstruction of justice and a future administration could prosecute them. That is tough talk about what is clearly a public violation of the law. We will keep on this story whether the government likes it or not. Be right back. Thanks for spending time with us on the Beat with Ari Melber. Happy New Year. Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section of a resume that you might throw away the perfect Hire Skills first. Hiring helps you see talent others miss. Like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage. Because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tear the paperceiling.org brought to you by opportunityatwork and the Ad Council.