Ari Melber (4:55)

I think there's a political coup going on right now in the Republican Party that people aren't paying attention to.

Eric (5:03)

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Ari Melber (5:04)

I think that the, I think that this, this, this Epstein thing is going to be a way for traditional conservatives.

Eric (5:10)

To take their party back.

Ari Melber (5:12)

This is the issue that has gotten.

Eric (5:14)

The base riled up.

Ari Melber (5:16)

The base, the MAGA base isn't letting this issue go. And for the first time, they know they can, you know, probably take their party back and not piss off the MAGA base. I think, I think, I think they're going to do that.

Eric (5:30)

That's Charlemagne's take. As for who's getting pissed off, well, the president certainly was. He wrote a lengthy diatribe with plenty of personal attacks going after Charlemagne, calling him names, saying he doesn't know anything about Trump. But the problem goes deeper than just a messenger, so to speak, referring to real evidence out there in a venue that clearly bothered Trump. The Trump hour of Fox there. The wider swath of voters are also concerned. There's new polling out today. 70% of Americans think that there is a client list. And while there may not be, the DOJ claims there isn't. That comes after a long time where Bondi and others literally told everyone there was. More than 60% see Trump as hiding information. That's true. That's the secrecy we've been reporting on. And a whopping 81% blame Trump for the way that the administration or others are hiding the info. In other words, the dance that we hear politicians sometimes do apparently isn't working on most of the public. 81% includes a heck of a lot of Trump voters. Top Republicans are also concerned about that story going into the weekend where this administration, which rode a wave of outrage over Epstein, is now giving leniency to his only incarcerated conspirator, Maxwell. So she was moved to that minimum security prison. Epstein victims were outraged. Why of anyone in the entire prison system, in their view, should this convicted sex trafficker who worked with Epstein get leniency right now, get a nicer prison environment, which, by the way, if you're a prisoner, that's one of the biggest major changes in your life you can get, other than getting sprung out, is getting to a better, sometimes safer prison. She got to a minimum security facility that under DOJ rules, people convicted of her crimes shouldn't even be allowed to be it's. Which makes it very suspicious. Now, Republican senators who famously go along with just about everything Trump does, including things that they had previously opposed, say this whole Maxwell thing has gone far enough. They are publicly urging Trump not to pardon her. To even have that conversation is a type of indictment. Think about the Ethics of pardoning a convicted sex trafficker. If there's no new evidence or substantive reason, Trump is not ruling it out, which is why they are warning in public. And so the Epstein panic, from the substance, what I read to you, from the victims and their families, to the politics charlemagne and the polling, to the ethics again of a world where the people who claim justice for Epstein are now aligned with a president who's helping an Epstein conspirator and sex trafficker. We turn to Michelle Goldberg, who has been reporting and writing about this for some time from the New York Times and MSNBC analyst, your view about this story and how it continues with the substantive help to Maxwell. She's been upgraded.

Michelle Goldberg (8:17)

It's so astonishing, and I mean, I feel like so many astonishing things happen in this rolling catastrophe of an administration that we lose track of it. But how quickly we have moved from Trump is going to blow the lid off on the Epstein conspiracy to Trump is going to both sort of do fate favors for Epstein's chief conspirator. And now the idea of a pardon is out there in the ether. It's really astonishing. And I think the question then becomes, first of all, why this transfer, which is, you know, which nobody has even given the ghost of an explanation for. And then what is Trump hiding? Right, because all of this is happening when Ghislaine Maxwell, there was a possibility, there still is a possibility that she could be subpoenaed to testify before Congress. So first you have Trump sending his former private attorney, now a Justice Department official, to speak to her for hours on end. Then she gets this inexplicable transfer. And again, I'm, I'm somebody who didn't necessarily think that there was something terribly incriminating about Donald Trump in these files, but he is doing his best. I mean, on the one hand, he says he wants this story to go away, he wants people to stop talking about it, but he obviously doesn't want that enough not to make or for his administration not to make these moves that at least on the surface, look extraordinarily incriminating.

Eric (9:50)

Yeah, these are huge risks. These are very guilty looking risks, to your point. And in politics, looking guilty is bad. In law, we have a different standard. And as you were careful to note. Yeah, the fact that somebody's referenced or caught up in a scene is not at all probative of the higher criminal standard. And he hasn't, even when he was out of power, been accused of that kind of wrongdoing. And he's famously been accused and faced Prosecution for other wrongdoing. As for the so called transparency, that's the other whole bit of it, Michelle. They have twisted themselves in knots. The victims, as I reported, are upset about it, but the government officials have twisted themselves in knots in a way that they can't hide. There were enough FBI personnel involved that people discussed it with reporters and reporters, very carefully sourced and fact checked. Bongino famously talked about, well if they don't release it, he might quit. Well, he hasn't quit and they haven't released it and it goes on and on in that manner where then one of the floated things, as you know, and I'll remind viewers, because there's been so many twists and turns was oh, maybe they need a special counsel. You don't need a special counsel. You have all the stuff. You don't need a new way to punt it out for a year. If anyone was was serious about transparency. Here's what Obama's AG said about that debate right now.

Ari Melber (11:08)

So, so finally you would release the files if you were Attorney General right now? Yeah.

Eric (11:14)

I mean take into account, you know, the privacy interests of various people, certainly the victims uppermost. But there is investigative material that can certainly be released.

Ari Melber (11:22)

That should be released.

Eric (11:23)

The focus shouldn't be on grand jury material because there are a whole bunch of problems with respect to the release of grand jury materials.

Ari Melber (11:30)

But with regard to investigative files that.

Eric (11:32)

Are in the possession of the Justice Department and the FBI, those materials should released. So what does the secrecy tell us?

Michelle Goldberg (11:43)

Well, I mean it's certainly not about the victims. Right. And that has been their fig leaf so far. You've heard that from Cash Patel and from others that they can't release this material because it would re victimize these, these women. Now these women are out there saying, or at least some of them that they feel victimized by the way the administration is handling this, is handling this material and yet it's not changing the administration's approach. So I think we rule out any concern about that from their motives. And again, I don't, we don't know why what they're hiding. We only know that, you know, the indications are overwhelming that they're hiding. That they're hiding something and that they're willing to take significant political hits. I mean. Right. The floating a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell is crazy. It's, you know, and it's also guaranteed to keep this story alive now long after this administration has tried to put it to bed. And yet they're willing to do it. Why?

Eric (12:42)

Yeah, why exactly Michelle Goldberg breaking this down. And we've invited you and you've agreed to stay and return later in the hour when we get to the Texas case. So thank you. We'll come back to Michelle. We have the rock band that's been taunting Trump at those live shows with the X Bean story that just his home. That's coming up. And from the new protest to Republican voters voice his warnings about the abuse of power here.

Ari Melber (13:06)

This is the action of a petulant.

Eric (13:08)

Child like you give me bad news, I fire the messenger. That's on the data and the censorship. But next, Andrew Weissman is here on something Trump admitted he wanted that now is partially happening, a probe of his former special counsel foe, Jack Smith. If you think back to Donald Trump's many problems with federal probes, there was the Mueller probe, which got a lot of his people in trouble, but ultimately, quite carefully and fairly issued a report that did not seek his indictment in office under the sitting rules and didn't necessarily give a path to indicting him after office. Indeed, as you may recall, nothing from the Mueller report ever led to a Trump indictment. What did lead to it was conduct by Donald Trump, including the attempted stealing and overthrowing of the 2020 election and the January 6th insurrection, which Trump, of course, later tied himself even closer to by pardoning all the people convicted. That is the context for what's happening now. Trump said that he might want revenge, he might want, if he won, to use the powers of the government to go after the prosecutors who investigated him. That alone is a confession. That's an admission of an illicit goal. Sometimes that's called selective prosecution. It's what happens in other non democracies, of course, all the time, the leader controls the Justice Department or their version of it, calls up like Putin would and says, I want this or that enemy prosecuted. It's all rigged. So it is suspicious at a minimum, and disturbing, according to many critics, that tonight we can report that federal officials are launching a type of probe into Jack Smith, the special counsel who indicted Donald Trump twice and then followed the law when the Supreme Court slowed the process down and Smith ultimately dissolved those cases because of those rules. I mentioned that Trump was returning to office. So you couldn't go on with the prosecution of the head of state. Now a different office, which is an independent agency, it's a watchdog that's unrelated to Smith. And the DOJ is now responding to politicians in the Republican Party, including Senator Cotton, who basically said maybe Smith's entire special counsel probe was a campaign effort. A political effort, and thus maybe it violates some workplace rule. Now, putting aside the irony of a sitting politician trying to be the one accusing other people of politics, this non criminal probe is now proceeding. So it is a way to sort of add smoke and interference with Jack Smith. And if it follows Trump's goals and we haven't had a direct connection, but we're also not going to close our eyes to the obvious. It is one more effort in this time of autocratic crackdowns of business shakedowns and censorship to send a message to other people in the government. Hey, be careful going too hard at the president or his friends, or you might end up in a range of problems and expensive problems. Could be private lawsuits, could be this Hatch act review, could be a criminal probe, as some Democratic officials are facing now. It's a civil offense even if you're found to violate the Hatch act in Washington. It's happened before. The investigation, though, could also be used as a kind of a step or what lawyers call a pretext to then get more intel or info on Smith and other people who worked with him to cook up other problems for them. The Post reports the investigation into Smith is out of the norm for an office responsible that looks into federal employees violations of prohibited personnel practices. But this is a different type of era and Trump himself has admitted to the illicit goals of punishing and investigating anyone he views as critical. Could be sitting office holders, could be former officials like Comey and Smith, John Brennan. Now, remember, this all started with the person in the federal government who, unlike many before him, said that when he found criminal evidence of wrongdoing didn't matter if it was a powerful person like Trump, he was going forward.

Ari Melber (17:18)

Today an indictment was unsealed charging Donald J. Trump with felony violations of our.

Eric (17:24)

National security laws as well as participating in a conspiracy to obstruct justice.

Ari Melber (17:30)

Today an indictment was unsealed charging Donald J. Trump with conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding.

Eric (17:48)

That was the case. There was strong evidence. And remember, one of the key defenses and defendants are allowed, of course, to make defenses, was that Donald Trump, his lawyer said, did not want a violent insurrection or sedition, did not operationally plan it, and certainly didn't look at the worst of the worst. The people attacking cops and going into those hallowed halls of Congress didn't look at them as his allies. They were people who got, as we heard, out of control in a day of riot. You probably remember many of the defenses. But what's happened from then to now has only gone in favor of the case that Mr. Smith was bringing, even though under the rules he wasn't going to bring it once Donald Trump became president elect because as president in round two second term, Trump pardoned all those people, which makes him look very supportive and completely endorsing of the convicted sedition, of the battery against police, of the effort to end American democracy when he found that it ran against him because he was the loser of the election. And now in this season where, yes, people are exhausted and some would rather look away, we have another step. It's not a criminal probe. I want to be clear with you. It is not as if they've fired up a new special counsel to go after the old special counsel. Nothing in these first pieces of news suggests that there would be any jail time on the table for anyone, no matter what they find. And yet, on the other hand, it is a step which all experts say is suspicious to go investigate the investigators. Andrew Weissman, who served on the Mueller probe when was FBI general counsel, knows all about all of this and joins us next.

Michelle Goldberg (19:29)

Foreign hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my.

Ari Melber (19:35)

Podcast, we are knee deep in season three.

Michelle Goldberg (19:37)

And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx, nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Rippa now, wherever you get your podcasts, did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with greenlight. Infinity's driving reports monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight Infinity@Greenlight.com podcast Riley.

Ari Melber (20:46)

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Eric (21:16)

We're back with Andrew Iceman, former FBI general counsel and a Mueller probe deputy, head of that probe and prosecutor. Your your view of what it means to have what I explained is a workplace civil and minor review, the Hatch act of Jack Smith. But still, it looks a lot like the revenge that Trump ordered.

Ari Melber (21:40)

You know, if this was the very first time that there was a review, I would say, you know what? You're, you should have it. We were, we were aware when I worked on the Mueller investigation that there would be a time that the investigators would be investigated. And if that's what's necessary so that the public understands that we did our job, so be it. But here, Donald Trump and his conspirators actually had their day in court. They filed motions about something called selective prosecution. And every judge who reached the merits of those motions, including Eileen Cannon, who Donald Trump himself is very laudatory of, rejected the claim that these were selectively prosecuted cases. And so I think there's really nothing to it. And this seems very duplicative. It also is incredibly ironic for this administration of all administrations, to be undertaking an investigation involving the Hatch act, which is, as you noted, is a civil statute. And Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff to Donald Trump, famously said, in light of a report that said there were numerous Trump administration violations of the Hatch act, he said, no one cares about the Hatch act outside the Beltway. And so he was basically saying we ignore it with impunity. And so all of that suggests that this is very much retaliatory. But I really think it's a distraction and nothing will come of it.

Eric (23:25)

Right. That you think, you know, they're not going to find much through it. But it adds to the list of people that they say, ah, see, we can pull this on anyone and we're going after these perceived enemies. Of course, it is notable that in confirmation, the Trump appointees were quick and furious to argue they don't have an enemy's list. Take a look.

Michelle Goldberg (23:47)

An enemies list within the Department of Justice been referred to as an enemies list. You've called them deep state.

Ari Melber (23:54)

It's not an enemies list. That is a total mischaracterization.

Eric (24:00)

Here we are more than halfway through year one of the term. And I showed the chart earlier. Some of these seem like ticky tack things. You know, James Comey's beach walks and whether staplers were taken home from special counsel's office. But together, do you see what looks like selective prosecution and probes? Do you see a type of enemies list we may have lost? Yeah, we lost Andrew Weissman there from his location. That happens in this era. I'll put the list back up one. One more point to finish the thought we were having because Andrew, you'll heard what he said. He was, he was quite fair in saying you're not above a review just because you were in a government office. And if there was any one of the people on your screen subject to review. Okay, here you have, however, a whole bunch. All of them have one thing in common, which is the perception by Donald Trump that they have made his life hard or somehow disagreed. Comey was, of course, a registered Republican back in the day, but he ended up on the other side of Trump, as did these other figures. That fits in with the Jack Smith news we were covering. I want to thank Andrew Weissman, even though he lost his camera, for joining us. We have a lot more coming up. Michelle Goldberg is here. We also have a special guest from this rock band that's been taunting Trump over the Epstein vulnerability, going so far as to play the footage at concerts where it seems everybody knows who Epstein is and that he was friendly with Trump and that Texas clash. All of that coming up. Donald Trump's Jeffrey Epstein scandal has taken on a whole life of its own. We've covered it from many different angles, but it's also out in the culture, which is a reminder of why it might have gotten so big in politics. It can't really be beaten back. It's in late night jokes. It's online in the memes. The podcasters who love Trump have said, well, they don't love him so much that they're going to put as Epstein and everything involving Epstein. And then you have the examples that kind of remind you this is something people really talk about. The punk band Dropkick Murphy's using Epstein to taunt Trump and showing what are now iconic videos that so many people recognize as suspicious and as true. Trump and Epstein in full meme mode on the giant screen. This was during a recent live show. And they dedicated a certain song to Trump called First Class Loser.

Ari Melber (26:37)

This next song is dedicated to a guy who wears orange makeup, his pants and his diapers.

Eric (26:44)

Breaks women. Let's go.

Ari Melber (26:45)

First Class Loser.

Eric (27:15)

That moment driving headlines on Rolling Stone and other music press A again, reminder that those of us who follow news and politics closely know all about this, but some stories and problems really do break through. And to start the week off right here on the Beat, I am thrilled to tell you we have Ken Casey from the Dropkick. Murphy's new album for the People is out now. Welcome to the show. How you doing?

Ari Melber (27:42)

Good, Ari. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Eric (27:45)

Yeah. So tell us first how this came about. What kind of motivated you to have that moment on stage? And how do you feel about the reception or the kind of the court it's. It's hit?

Ari Melber (27:58)

Well, we've always been speaking up against Trump since, you know, he came on the scene. We've been around for 29 years, always been about, you know, standing up for working class people, standing up for what's right. And most of the time, our mostly working class white fan base had been in lockstep with us. And then all of a sudden, 12 years ago, or whatever it was, when he came down the escalator, you know, things started to slowly change. And, you know, we're out there trying to speak up and make our point, but sometimes the nuances of, hey, you know, Trump and the GOP don't have your best in, you know, your best, what's best for you. And mind, those are nuances that are tough to fit in between songs on a stage. So sometimes you just gotta hit them where it hurts and you gotta show what has an immediate impact and what is frankly, you know, should be a disqualifying subject anyway, right off the rip. And it's just our way of, you know, and just. And also to remind the voters that in the audience that is so concerned with their male masculinity and all that, that. Is this the guy? Is this the guy that should represent your male masculinity, that wears makeup and type is, you know, so you only have short amounts of time to make your point, and you got to make the point, you know.

Eric (29:21)

Yeah. And so putting the Epstein video up and making that a centerpiece. Walk us through that. Because, as you say, that's cut through in a way some other things maybe haven't.

Ari Melber (29:33)

I mean, visuals, you know, we have. We have the video all with us. We have a few others. That talk about that show, the ice raids and things like that. And, you know, the visuals with the music can create a strong message. First Class Loser is an older song, but, you know, I've been dedicating it to Donald Trump since. Since he came on the scene. And, you know, we're just trying to do our part out there to maybe also inspire other bands to speak out. And there's a lot of people want to keep their head down and not, you know, have the maga mob turn on them. But we. We've. We've been doing this for 29 years. Our message has never changed. And I'm not gonna. We're not gonna cower because. Because of this guy.

Eric (30:21)

So, yeah, you mentioned that pressure, and that's where our free speech and even the business community, which isn't known for its, you know, independent courage, perhaps, anyway, are all facing these pressures. I wonder, for an artist like you, do you feel kind of like maybe the way artists used to feel if they took a bid, a gig in China or something, and you start getting, you know, a little briefing about, hey, they got other laws over here, certain things we can't do. Is that what it's becoming like for some bands in America? You've chosen to take the risk or speak out. But others seem to be concerned right now.

Ari Melber (30:59)

I mean, as a punk band, we've really operated outside the norms of, say, the music industry. So we don't really have people, like, if a record company wanted to tell us what to say or not say, we wouldn't listen if a promoter or, you know, it's just not how. We've never operated within the parameters of a world where people could try to put us in a corner. So we're lucky, I suppose, in that sense. I know some people have outstanding issues that may lead them to want to cower from it. And I think some people just don't want to affect their business. If they say, well, 49, 45, 50%, whatever it is, of the nation is going to be upset if we speak out, then that'll affect our business. But our very business is built on things like this, of. Of speaking up on behalf of what's right for workers and for regular people and. And to do what's just right in the world, you know, and when we've seen a lot of people fight for these rights of work is rights, civil rights, and we don't want to see them all taken away when. When we have a microphone and a voice that could help play a small part in speaking up. Against it.

Eric (32:16)

Yeah, I love how you're putting that very, very starkly. But if you tell the truth and your brand becomes the truth, then you don't have to worry about being off brand because people expect you to tell the truth, which there's something to that. So I appreciate, I know a lot of people appreciated that moment. We, we reported on it when it happened. But getting you on the show is, is great. Ken Casey, thank you again.

Ari Melber (32:40)

Thanks, Eric. Appreciate it.

Eric (32:41)

Yes, sir, Absolutely. We're finished. A break. When we come back, there's a new wave of protests against specifically Trump's abuse of power that's happening across the country. That's next.

Ari Melber (32:54)

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Michelle Goldberg (33:10)

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Eric (34:16)

We're just getting in some new live pictures. This is right out of Austin, Texas. You can see this is an area near Governor's Mansion where protesters are discussing and protesting the so called gerrymandering and attacks on democracy in an escalating clash with 50 Democrats now leaving that state. In Texas, there they are protesting what they say is another MAGA power grab. Now the tactic has at least slowed or delayed this process denying Republicans the necessary number of people they need to go forward the quorum. So it stopped Republicans from their effort to slice up congressional district. The anti democracy tactic is one that in history both parties have used to be clear. Although in the recent era, Republicans have used mathematical maps and in some cases racial gerrymandering, sometimes overruled in the courts, other times allowed. That has really pushed this to a breaking point. There's also video out of the Texas state House where you can see people gathering. The Democrats had left. The state's governor, Greg Abbott, a Republican, says he'll expel the Democratic lawmakers over this or maybe charge them with crimes for raising money to cover the fines they would face for missing the sessions. The state's Republican attorney general says let's hunt down those who think they're above the law. Of course, the question is whether the laws here are being carried out justly or not. If you think back far enough, it's not the first time that we've had a skirmish like this at the state level. Indeed, Texas has some odd rules that make it more subject to this sort of quorum ducking. Now, many of the Democrats went to Illinois, where Democratic Governor Pritzker says he will protect them in that blue state. Others speaking out. We're here to demand, to demand an end to this corrupt process.

Ari Melber (36:05)

I've never seen anything this brazen, this broken or this spineless.

Michelle Goldberg (36:10)

The people of Texas know they've seen this playbook before and they want fair maps.

Ari Melber (36:15)

Let's not sugarcoat it. This is not redistricting. This is rigging.

Michelle Goldberg (36:19)

The only way that you get here is by making sure that you trample upon the right and the liberties and the voices of minorities.

Eric (36:28)

We from Texas are so familiar with.

Ari Melber (36:30)

The phrase of our Apollo 13 mission.

Eric (36:33)

Houston, we have a problem. Well, I say, America, we have a problem. We're back with Michelle Goldberg. Your views on what's playing out here at a time where many clashes between the parties, nationally and locally, seem to go to a 10 and be really over whether we're going to have Democratic norms at all.

Michelle Goldberg (36:57)

Well, I think that Democrats are starting to learn that you can't always fight with one hand tied behind your back and you have to sometimes be willing to go to attend in the face of these really relentless attacks. So as you said, gerrymandering Democrats do it too. There's, you know, Illinois is a very gerrymandered state, but to do it this kind of middle to gerrymander right now, kind of in the middle of a Cycle just very explicitly because the President is afraid that he's going to lose the House in the next election. There's a level of nakedness to what they're doing that I think is new. And there has to be something like mutually assured destruction if you're going to dissuade Republican governors from doing this. So I think, you know, I hope that Gavin Newsom in California, he's already said he's gonna start acting on this. I mean, it's more difficult in blue states like California and New York because you need constitutional changes in order to do this sort of redistricting. But they need to get started on it because, you know, this is, I think, a sign of Republicans not trying to keep the House by giving voters policies that they want. Right. This administration is very unpopular, and yet the. And yet Republicans keep doubling down on all the parts of it that people hate. They just passed this fantastically unpopular tax bill. People do not like the way mass deportations are being carried out. They're unhappy with many different things that Trump is doing. They're unhappy with the economy. Rather than try to address voters concerns in order to hold the House in the midterms, they want to change the rules. And so, you know, I think voters out there, Democratic voters, have been tearing their hair out over a party that doesn't seem to fight back. But you finally, I think, are starting to see politicians meeting the moment.

Eric (38:58)

Right. And you're, you're hitting the larger point that in many of these battles, they have different ingredients. But Democrats have often fallen into the default of saying, hey, that's not how we've done it, or you're breaking norms and rules and that's not fair. And then they kind of box themselves into defending norms wherever they came from. And you're saying, well, in Texas and in the other states that might form common cause, they're saying, all right, we'll fight fire with fire and there will be a political either punishment or matching of this bs even though we can all stipulate from the outside it's not, it doesn't look fair. But if you're going to pull this BS in your red Texas, we'll do it in blue New York or whatever. Paraphrasing to at least have a kind of a wartime response that would be more effective than what, another op ed.

Michelle Goldberg (39:54)

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that there is. Look, the norms have been destroyed. There's no preserving them. There's no referee out there who's going to say this is or isn't fair. There's only this kind of very ugly struggle for power. Democrats might not like it, but they have to, I think, both take the threat of what Donald Trump is trying to do to this country seriously and take the root struggle for power seriously. You know, and so again, it's not, I don't think anybody wants a system where this is how our congressional seats are apportioned. But I also don't think that we can have a system where you have relatively fair maps in blue states and then wildly disproportionate maps in red states.

Eric (40:44)

Yeah, right. And, and so the, all of the guardrails that involve how democracy functions. If you're right and they're over, then the only other silver lining is you say, well, you start anew and fairness is only going to be measured by the warring parties on a national basis rather than this, this, these sort of tit for tats where some folks don't want to get their hands dirty. To your point, Michelle Goldberg, on more than one story tonight, we thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. We're going to fit in a break. When we come back, there are some Republicans who say enough is enough when it comes to Donald Trump not only warring with free speech and journalists, but now against math itself. President Trump headed into the weekend on defense, ousting the labor statistician who gave the true bad numbers about the economy, falsely accusing her of manipulating the numbers. Now that's a nonpartisan role. The data is gathered by experts and many are slamming this move.

Ari Melber (41:56)

This is the action of a petulant child.

Eric (41:58)

It was just fired because the president or whoever decided to fire the director just did it because they didn't like the numbers.

Ari Melber (42:05)

They had to grow up whacking statisticians makes no sense whatsoever. They don't shoot the messenger. They used to do that in ancient Rome.

Eric (42:13)

This is the stuff of democracies giving way to authoritarianism, just unacceptable. And several of those voices are more center right. Trump allies can't even really defend this one.

Ari Melber (42:31)

Is the president prepared to fire anyone who reports data that he disagrees with? No, absolutely not.

Eric (42:36)

The president wants his own people there.

Ari Melber (42:38)

So that when we see the numbers, they're more transparent and more reliable. Do you have any hard evidence that these numbers were wrong? Yeah, there are is very hard evidence.

Eric (42:48)

That we're looking at the biggest revisions since 1968.

Ari Melber (42:51)

Are you going to present that evidence? If you look at the number itself.

Eric (42:53)

It is the evidence.

Michelle Goldberg (42:54)

But just saying it's an outlier is not evidence.

Ari Melber (42:56)

Mr. It's a historically important outlier.

Eric (43:01)

What you see there is Trump officials wanting to say this is still about math, because to admit that you just shot the messenger and you want new math is to look really autocratic even for that. Protesters, meanwhile, are gathering for a new rage against the regime set of rallies. This picks up on the no kings rallies and goes to how Donald Trump is using and abusing government power. The effort also looks, as the New York Times reports, at the authoritarian playbook Trump is increasingly used, where officials who deal in data fear they have to toe the line or risk losing their jobs, facing pressure as never before to conform to alternative reality, AKA lies. Trump's efforts remind scholars of the way authoritarian leaders in other countries have sought to control information. Trump is not making it a secret, he says give him what he wants, including lying about important things, or you're out. And that fits into the wider era of misinformation we have been facing, where a lot of important people and rich people, including tech giants, see facts as something that can be negotiated or discarded. And that brings us to Yuval Harari, one of the scholars we've spoken to in our special series. Take a listen to his view on the truth, this counterspeech doctrine that we just need more information. And if you have a lot of information, again, the truth will just come up, will float up, and it won't. You need to tilt the balance in favor of truth because again, as I.

Ari Melber (44:38)

Said before, it's costly, it's rare, and.

Eric (44:42)

More to the point, the truth is.

Ari Melber (44:44)

Complicated and often painful.

Eric (44:48)

The truth was painful for Trump, that's for sure. Harari argues that's why we need to protect it. You can see that interview@msnbc.com summit and you can always connect with me online@remelber.com if you want to catch up with me as we go through these summer periods. You can go and put your email in@arimelber.com and get my free newsletter where I write about matters like truth, culture, music and even my recent trip to Alaska. All true. All available there or at social media. Thanks for spending time with us here on the Beat with Ari Melber. We got a big week. I'll see you back here tomorrow at 6pm Eastern.

Michelle Goldberg (45:24)

What's poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em what about a career con man. We've got them, too, guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know, they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o', Brien, and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.