Trump Seeks 'Scapegoat' for Voters' Economic Fears

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump Seeks 'Scapegoat' for Voters' Economic Fears
Date: January 14, 2026

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Overview

This episode of The Beat with Ari Melber explores former President Donald Trump’s ongoing efforts to undermine the independence of the Federal Reserve, primarily by targeting Fed Chair Jerome Powell. Ari Melber unpacks the political motivations behind Trump’s actions, the historical context of economic crises as drivers of political change, and the current administration’s response to economic anxiety among voters. The episode includes a detailed news segment, historical analysis, commentary from law experts, and an interview with actor John Slattery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump Targets Fed Chair Powell: Power, Politics, and Precedent

• DOJ Probe into Jerome Powell
  • Trump administration is using Department of Justice resources to investigate Fed Chair Jerome Powell, allegedly for misstating renovation costs of federal properties. The probe is widely considered thin and driven by personal animus and political motives.
  • Ari Melber calls it “a blatant abuse of power” following Trump’s resentment of Powell’s resistance to political pressure ([01:01]).
  • Trump’s objective: “He wants to corrupt the Fed's independent process to basically give him MAGA markets.” ([03:12])
• Trump's Broader Playbook
  • Melber notes this is part of a pattern: “They've targeted... DOJ critics like Comey, Democrats like James, as well as Republican Trump appointees like Bolton and now lower right Powell.” ([01:53])
  • The uniqueness of the Fed showdown is emphasized — previous presidents have not gone this far to interfere with Federal Reserve independence.

2. The Economics-Elections Connection: Why Control the Fed Matters

• Historical Patterns
  • Melber provides a compelling historical overview: economic downturns routinely punish the incumbent party. Using phrases such as “It’s the economy, stupid,” he charts how market crashes influenced elections from Reagan through Obama to Trump and Biden ([06:09]–[07:14]).
  • “The President's party loses badly when the market crashes.” ([08:01])
  • International context: autocrats from Perón to Gorbachev also fell when economic crises undermined their power ([11:05]).
• Trump’s Political Calculus
  • Motivation: By taking over the Fed, Trump hopes to force a short-term economic “sugar rush”—artificially lowering interest rates to boost the economy and his political fortunes before elections. Melber warns this risks “larger problems” and potential financial crashes ([16:07]).
  • “Trump wants the Fed to give him a short term economic sugar rush to artificially boost him and his party... for these upcoming elections.” ([03:28])

3. Populism, Elitism, and “Let Them Eat Cake” Moments

• Comparisons to Marie Antoinette
  • Melber likens Trump’s recent rhetoric on inflation and consumer spending (“maybe the children will have two dolls instead of 30...”) to Marie Antoinette’s infamous indifference ([15:39]).
  • “Trump calling for families to cut back on toys, acknowledging the prices may go up under his tariffs and contrast that with his self enrichment...” ([16:07])
• Self-Enrichment vs. Economic Pain
  • Contrasts Trump’s personal financial gains (e.g., foreign gifts, crypto profits, taxpayer funds) with the economic hardships faced by ordinary Americans ([16:07]–[18:00]).

4. Threat to the Rule of Law: Selective Prosecution & Institutional Norms

• Legal Community & Financial Industry Pushback
  • The Trump administration's probe of Jerome Powell draws rare bipartisan criticism, including from Republicans and industry leaders ([01:53]; [24:22]).
• Selective Prosecution
  • “If you have prosecutions being called in without a basis by politicians, that's called selective prosecution. It's actually illegal.” ([24:25])
  • Trump upset with slow progress at the DOJ, calling AG Pam Bondi “weak and ineffective” for not pursuing his targets aggressively ([24:40]).
  • Professor Melissa Murray: “[Trump] wants control of the Fed because he wants to manipulate interest rates to his political advantage... that's the reason that the Fed is an independent agency.” ([16:50]; [27:11])

5. Institutional Checks & The Supreme Court

• Supreme Court Review
  • The Supreme Court is about to hear a case on Trump’s attempt to oust other Fed officials, raising questions about presidential authority and the separation of powers ([04:34]; [28:51]).
  • Prof. Murray articulates the risk: “He's basically trying to oust two members of the Fed to get the sugar high we reported on tonight. Don't you think an honest Supreme Court would say, well, if you can do that, then it's not independent?” ([29:51])

6. The Media, Distraction, and Keeping the Public Informed

• Media Coverage & Distraction
  • Prof. Murray discusses the “distraction” effect in coverage: “We've been talking about Powell, we've been talking about Venezuela. We haven't been talking about why the Department of Justice hasn't produced all of the Epstein files...” ([28:29])
  • Ari Melber keeps a lighter tone at times, referencing music and pop culture but pivots back to the issue: “Next you'll tell me we're not doing enough music, not spitting enough bars.” ([28:51])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Economic Narratives & Voter Behavior

• “You have three of them with me. And then we got hit with the plague.”
  — Donald Trump on his economic record vs. COVID, highlighting the centrality of the economy to his electoral fortunes ([07:03])

• “The economy shapes elections more than anything else. History shows it, political science shows it...when people are mad about the economy, they vote against the incumbent.”
  — Ari Melber ([07:19])

Marie Antoinette & Trump’s Tone

• “Let them eat cake. That's such nonsense. I would never say that the bread shortage is grave.”
  — Ari Melber, referencing Marie Antoinette to highlight leaders out of touch with public suffering ([14:02])

• “Maybe the children will have two dolls instead of 30 dolls, you know, and maybe the two dolls will cost a couple of bucks more than they would normally.”
  — Donald Trump, on sacrifices for average families ([15:39])

Legal & Political Analysis

• “If you have prosecutions being called in without a basis by politicians, that's called selective prosecution. It's actually illegal.”
  — Ari Melber ([24:25])

• “The Wall Street Journal calls this Lawfare for Dummies...then there’s the criminal subpoena prosecutors delivered to Chairman Powell.”
  — Ari Melber ([28:13])

• “The fact everyone knows what the point of all of this is. It’s to joke the numbers, as they would say on the Wire, get interest rates low, make the housing markets more effective going forward into the midterms.”
  — Prof. Melissa Murray ([30:41])

Pop Culture & Historical Resonance

• John Slattery, on his new film "Nuremberg":
  “The story between the psychiatrist Doug Kelly and Hermann Goering... just a great story and a great angle to a story that I knew a little about. ...It's the first time film footage was used as evidence. Crimes against humanity was the coinage for that enterprise.” ([34:46])

• Roger Sterling (John Slattery as his "Mad Men" character):
  “Life is supposed to be a path and you go along and these things happen to you and they're supposed to change you, change your direction. But it turns out that's not true. Turns out the experiences are nothing. They're just some pennies you pick up off the floor, stick in your pocket. You're just going in a straight line to, you know, where.” ([38:50])

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Important Timestamps

• 01:01 – Ari Melber introduces top story: DOJ probe into Fed Chair Powell
• 03:12 – Trump’s intent to “corrupt the Fed's independent process” explained
• 05:36–06:48 – Historical audio montage, “It’s the economy, stupid” analysis
• 10:14 – Reagan attacks Carter’s economic policies, historical scapegoating
• 15:39 – Trump’s “children will have two dolls instead of 30” remarks; self-enrichment
• 16:07 – Economic mirages vs. long-term consequences
• 24:22–26:17 – Analysis: selective persecution and DOJ resignations
• 26:59–31:52 – Legal discussion with Prof. Melissa Murray: effectiveness of Trump’s DOJ, the recklessness of going after the Fed, implications for Supreme Court
• 34:46–38:42 – Interview with John Slattery on new film “Nuremberg” and acting in period dramas
• 38:50–40:08 – “Mad Men” segment and discussions of art, history, and resonance

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Conclusion

Ari Melber’s episode provides a rich, context-driven analysis of why Trump is fixated on the Federal Reserve as a scapegoat for economic malaise, how this fits into a pattern of political self-preservation through institutional subversion, and why these actions echo dangerous anti-democratic tendencies seen historically. The blending of political analysis, legal insight, and cultural moments makes for a captivating and accessible explanation of high-stakes developments for listeners.

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For deeper dives and past reports, explore the new Ms. Now Summit series as highlighted at the close of the episode.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. The top story from Washington, Wall street, is the Trump administration probing Fed chair Jerome Powell. A blatant abuse of power coming after months of clashes where Trump resented that Powell is upholding his oath to keep the Fed independent and also standing up to a lot of White House pressure. We're never going to be influenced by any political pressure.

[D]

I don't think he's doing the job. He's too late. Always too late, a little slow, and I'm not happy with him. It looks like it's about 3.1 billion. It went up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1.

[B]

I'm not aware of that.

[D]

Yeah, it just came out.

[B]

Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody.

[D]

The Fed let him know it. And if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast, believe me.

[B]

The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. That's part of how we got here tonight. The Trump DOJ's probe is very thin. It chases a theory that maybe Powell misstated details of the federal government renovations. You saw them touring that there. And that he also did so in a manner that would be become a federal crime, which is just unlikely at best. This is drawing even more pushback than other Trump revenge cases because financial leaders and Republicans are also speaking out. They're joining the legal experts, independents and Democrats who have consistently objected to all of these revenge cases you see here. They've targeted at the DOJ critics like, comey Democrats like James as well as Republican Trump appointees like Bolton and now lower right Powell. So Trump's using that familiar playbook. And while there may be some spite here over just anyone standing up to him, it's also clear this one is different. The Fed a larger fixation for Trump, the administration probing Powell while also trying to seize banking powers, ousting another Fed official, which goes so far beyond what literally any president has ever tried. That case. And I know there's a lot to keep track of, but we'll remind you tonight that case actually is up before the Supreme Court court review next week because it is so far beyond what anyone has ever tried or gotten away with at the White House. Why is Trump fixated on the Fed this much? Well, we're exploring the answer for you right now in a special report. The Fed's policy process can be complex, but Trump's motive here is simple. He wants to corrupt the Fed's independent process to basically give him MAGA markets. And so instead of looking out for all people in this country and what's best for the entire long term economy, that's the Fed's job. That's why the law gives it power separate from the White House. Just as judges don't report into the White House whether Trump likes it or not, there are whole parts of the federal government specifically with their own powers because this isn't a unitary state. So instead of that, Trump wants the Fed to give him a short term economic sugar rush to artificially boost him and his party, the Republican Party, for these upcoming elections. I'm going to walk through this with you and I think we have some interesting stuff to show you, including across history in this report. But bottom line, it's about power. It's about MAGA markets trying to interfere with what otherwise would happen in the real economy and the real electorate. Now, we can get into some of the economic details, but for now, that's the gist. Having a politician control the central bank breaks the law. It shreds the central bank's freedom. If he got away with it, it obviously undercuts free markets. And for all the valid criticism of Wall street in today's markets, one thing that Bernie Sanders, liberals and conservative Wall street leaders agree on is that politicians should not have more corrupt power over the independent central bank. Now, politicos tend to focus on politics, which we could define as candidate strategies and pitches and their plans. Tonight in our report, I want to broaden out. And some of this is, I think just kind of interesting to look Back over. Because the iron law of elections across all history and geography in the modern era is the economy overrides everything. When the markets crash or times are tough, voters punish the party in power.

[D]

Bank after bank across the country is hit by panic withdrawals. Ike warns industry and labor that reckless price and salary boosts menace the economic future.

[B]

Today is Black Monday, the day the Dow dropped more than 500 points. The news from Wall street has shaken the American people's faith in our economy.

[E]

History in the making. The dow plummets more than 777, its biggest one day point drop.

[F]

We have not seen a plunge like this since the crash of 1987 with one reason Corona.

[B]

It was market panics actually in the early 1900s which led to creating the Fed. The central bank tries to manage crashes and risk. It obviously can't prevent all of them. Now on the politics, you can actually measure voters reaction to each of those crashes across decades of elections. In midterms and presidential years, angry voters will punish governments, the incumbents, over a bad economy. That is a truth that drives legendary political sayings that have become cliches and many races you probably remember. It's the economy, stupid.

[D]

Mark is wonderful, ain't it Mr. Bush? Maybe he'll be unemployed.

[B]

We project that Bill Clinton is going to be the next President of the United States. Obama blames Washington for the country's economic woes and is trying to link John McCain to President Bush's policies.

[D]

I had the honor of calling Senator Barack Obama to congratulate him. The greatest economic year in the history of our country. You had three of them with me. And then we got hit with the plague.

[B]

Joe Biden is on track to be the next president. A plague for people and markets. Biden's win was propelled by voters upset about the economy crushed by COVID 19. And some politicos might have overestimated what the voters were saying, as if it were an embrace of all Biden policies rather than concern about the crashing chart you see on the screen. And likewise, there are other politicos currently overestimating Trump's win just last year, which was also propelled by voters upset with high prices. The economy shapes elections more than anything else. History shows it, political science shows it. And this isn't some new narrative that the media is just glomming onto during this new clash over the Fed. This week we report on this all the time in factual political coverage. Before the COVID crash, we reported how Trump was on track for re election unless the economy fell. And then it did. And Biden beat him, as mentioned. And on 2024, election night, we were reporting on the trend of people voting against the incumbent party. The because of high prices and economic concerns with the coronavirus that people are so scared about, how does that affect what's going on as far as with the Democrats, with Biden and even Trump during these kind of crises, especially if it gets worse, we'll see. People tend to go, wait a minute, I need government. I think Donald Trump has a good path to reelection and a good economy. He's probably gonna win and maybe not in a bad economy. When the economy is bad enough, and that's front and center, people tend to vote against what they see as the incumbent party. In this case, you had an incumbent vice president. Is it that everyone gave Donald Trump a bigger hug because he closed so well? Or is it something we've seen from time going back to the beginning of elections, that when people are mad about the economy, they vote against the incumbent? They vote against the incumbent, they vote against high prices, and in that case, they voted against the Biden Harris administration. Now, no one could see the future, but history shows the trends. The President's party loses badly when the market crashes. Republicans actually gained a whopping 67 seats in the midterms after a post war downturn. Democrats surged by over 60 seats in the recession of 58 and won 49 seats in 74amid inflation that was so bad they called it stagflation, when high prices are worsened by job losses and negative growth. And that's just midterms, which is what Trump is bracing for in 10 months. Economic backlashes are even worse in presidential years. A lot more people vote and here you've got some examples. Reagan won and the GOP gained 46 seats off that economic malaise I mentioned after a campaign where Reagan rattled off inflation data and his knowledge of the Federal Reserve notice, that's back in the headlines now. He was doing it to pound Carter's economy.

[D]

To get a handle on inflation because in January at the beginning of the year, it was more than 18%. Since then, he has blamed to the people for inflation, opec, he's blamed the Federal Reserve system. He has blamed the lack of productivity of the American people. He has then accused the people of living too well.

[B]

That was then. And one of the most successful candidates in the modern era, Barack Obama certainly won plenty of elections without riding a recession. But his biggest, biggest win the first time he took the White House, we'll add to the chart, was when Democrats swept the White House The House and the Senate, with voters punishing the GOP for some of those clips I just played you earlier when Stephanie Rule was walking the carnage of the market floor, the housing crash, and what became the Great Recession. That's American politics, where we have elections every two years, whether the politicians like it or not. But as Donald Trump muses openly about a world without elections or where he has soldiers in the streets and unitary power, I would remind everyone that even autocrats abroad have seen that bad economies can topple their reign. Argentinian leader Peron was overthrown amid inflation and the economic problems in the 50s. Same story for Ferdinand Marcos and Mobutu Seco. Rampant inflation drove the uprisings, along with other factors. You can even go to the fall of Gorbachev and the Soviet Union. Of course it was complicated, but it was the economic failure at home that weakened the dictator's control and created a more ripe environment for a protest movement where people risked their lives to ultimately topple the government. History shows why Trump's fixated on crushing Fed independence to control the economy right now, even as there's so much else going on. And he's doing it, even if it angers powerful Republicans on Wall street and brings the clash all the way up to the Supreme Court next week. So history has something to teach us, as well as how to win. For those looking at democracy versus whatever autocracy others are pitching. So what comes next? Our special report concludes. I'm back with you in 92nd.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

And when they went to the queen, the teller, her subject had no bread. Do you know what she said? Let them eat cake. That's such nonsense. I would never say that the bed shortage is grave.

[H]

There must be something the king can do to ease their sufferings. Tell the court jeweler to stop sending diamonds.

[F]

You don't need any diamonds, do you?

[B]

One of the most infamous lines from an out of touch leader ever, Marie Antoinette. Failing to understand that her people were literally starving, they could not just switch from bread to another carb. That economic pain was a key factor that drove the French Revolution. Achieving the rare feat of toppling that monarchy, the king and queen went from absolute power to to public beheadings, almost an unthinkable turn for that revolution. The king Louis XVI is the same one referenced in the hit Hamilton, where the founding father laments how the US made a deal with a king who was no more mocking the idea of keeping the agreement or conversing with the king. Should we honor our treaty, King Louis Head? Hamilton asked. Do whatever you want. I'm super dead. He imagined the king replying, yeah, there is a Hamilton lyric for everything. Hamilton of course also very interested in our central banking system. A lot of this stuff goes back aways now. Critics likened Trump's economic message this year to Marie Antoinette. He ran on lowering prices, but now wants to lower expectations.

[D]

I will immediately bring prices down starting on day one. You know, you can give up certain products, but you can give up pencils. You don't need 37 dolls for your daughter. Two or three is nice. We may have short term, some a little pain and people understand that bond market is very tricky. I was watching it. Maybe the children will have two dolls instead of 30 dolls, you know, and maybe the two dolls will cost a couple of bucks more than they would normally.

[B]

Trump calling for families to cut back on toys, acknowledging the prices may go up under his tariffs and contrast that with his self enrichment, like the foreign jet gift that he got, which may violate the constitution or the White House renovations. The outlandish plan he has trying to take over $100 million in taxpayer money for himself. He floated that that one hasn't gone through yet. Or his bid to reap hundreds of millions of dollars in crypto for himself and his family, all while people struggle in the economy, hampered by his erratic tariff plans. If Trump does get more control over the Fed, he thinks he can juice the economy. One bible of finance, the Wall Street Journal, has attacked his recent plot against Powell, while also previously noting that Trump basically mixes capitalism and socialism. And someone who knows all about how the White House really runs, Obama veteran David Axelrod called out why Trump is so obsessed with the Fed. Here's the thing that people should be concerned about. He wants control of the Fed because he wants to manipulate interest rates to his political advantage, to what he perceives as his political advantage. That's the reason that the Fed is an independent agency. True, it's an independent agency. It's not supposed to create politicized markets for short term corrupt political agendas, which they were always concerned about, which is why it's federal law now. I told you we could get into the details briefly. Here's how this would work. Instead of the Fed doing its job, setting policy for whatever the independent experts think could be long term economic success, Trump would by definition break with their plan. Because if he let them have their plan, he wouldn't need to do all this right. He would try to oust several Fed officials to then do what they otherwise wouldn't do. Artificially lower interest rates beyond the current plans in order to juice the economy for his party. And that could boost stock prices in the short term or stoke the housing market, could even trim unemployment at first, but in the long run, it risks larger problems, which is why the Fed isn't doing it. But for his political pressure, it could contribute to the bubbles which have stoked the past crashes we showed you and the hardship there. So to be clear, the trade off would be a short term type of sugar high mirage that would hurt Americans in a potentially avoidable crash later. Which is why politicians don't run the Fed. By law, Fed independence is supposed to combat exactly that corrupt political temptation. And the lawmakers knew a White House official or president would have that temptation long before Trump came along. And that's not all. High prices are a problem right now. But there are wider risks of a bubble and crash. Here, I showed you the past crashes. Now we have a concentration of just a few big tech stocks boosting most of the US stock market. Investors are currently up from some of the big tech companies you see here, but many warn it looks like a Jenga board. Or if you Pull out one or two of those AI socks, you could have a wider crash. And while the companies are different, that pattern of risk is something we have seen before us. Wealth inequality is also getting worse. And that means that while we're talking about markets, let's remember a huge number of Americans, more than a third, can't save enough in this economy to invest in any stocks. They don't own any stocks. And yet we all know that even as the working poor are cut out of stock gains, crashes tend to hurt everyone, even if you don't own stocks because you live in the same economy. And that's before you get to what we've seen the elites do. Republican President George Bush took everybody's tax dollars to bail out those failed and risky banks, didn't just take money from, say, the richer people or people who were in the markets. And that can leave you feeling especially powerless or angry when the elites act like this. But people, of course, still have that one lever we showed you, voting against the incumbent party, especially when they're facing economic pain. Now, Trump and Republicans control the White House and Congress right now. I don't want to get too far in the weeds, but I'll tell you a couple things. They could pass laws to better regulate AI. They could tax just those richest companies for emergency bailout funds so that if we do face a crash, it's those companies on the hook for their bets. Instead of the predictable pattern of bailouts, tapping working people and people who weren't even in the stock market. It could do that right now. You could literally put that fund aside, break the glass if they need it, and if they never need it, do whatever with it or even yield some of it back to them. Republicans could regulate crypto to contain what is an obvious risk. Donald Trump once publicly called it a scam, but they're not doing that. They're not doing long term economic policy work to benefit the general public. If that sounds like a criticism or an indictment, well, it is the fact. And I've shown you all of the receipts. Do with that fact what you will. Instead, Donald Trump takes what he once called a scam of crypto and is grifting hundreds of millions of dollars off that industry in his own let them eat crypto moment while people struggle to get by, Trump has shown he'd rather risk breaking the law, maybe even losing at the Supreme Court. He'd rather do that to cover his tracks with some sort of short term economic sugar high if he can get away with it. And Donald Trump knows all about the economy shaping elections. He was obsessed with that very political problem. When Covid was tanking the markets, he knew it was a risk for him. He understood that math at times. And Bob Woodward and others have told us about this and have recorded calls from the period where Trump was as concerned about the markets and the perception of the economy as he was about who was dying of COVID And then he came back into office running against Biden on the high prices complaint. So now he wakes up every day fearing a midterm route that could seal his lame duck fate at a time when Republicans have already voted him down on Congress on Epstein, on healthcare last week. They're even planning a vote on the war powers that he's trying to use as his domestic powers clearly wane. Losing the midterms, which Trump's own RNC chair says is likely would obviously hasten his political demise. It could also bring on more accountability if Democrats are in the House. We have some memory of what that was like in the first term, the subpoenas, the probes. And if there is constitutional violations, maybe another impeachment, maybe even one over pocketing foreign jets and hundreds of millions in crypto. Constitution says you can't take foreign gifts. He's been taking tons of them that we know of. Trump did not leave peacefully after his last loss either. So everyone must be ready for a sequel, a reboot or a more extreme version if Republicans lose in 28 of the January 6th violence that Trump now backs and pardoned. So history can be grim, but it has lessons and it shows clearly how economic unrest, the lived reality of the mass public, can, abroad and at home, congeal with informed protest for revolutions in any system of government that bring the power back to the people. It is those dynamics that have dislodged so many incumbents, even powerful ones, and even those who have very clearly shown they would end democracy if they could. That's our special report.

[G]

Next.

[B]

We come back with Professor Melissa Murray. I tend to agree with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen, who believes any such investigation is probably unwise. Does anybody think this would be happiness investigation if, if Powell had acquiesced to the president and set interest rates, rates where the president wants?

[D]

This was a really big unforced error.

[B]

On Fox and Fox Business. Some of the guests, some of the analysts are saying the obvious, the revenge tour, apparently now that it's hit someone they are more sympathetic to is a bad idea. And if you have prosecutions being called in without a basis by politicians, that's called selective prosecution. It's actually illegal. It's not just Powell. While it is getting more pushback, as I've told you from last night, the other critics, people who've pushed back, are all on this assorted list. Trump is angry. There's new reporting that he attacked his own team at the White House last week, says he has weak people at the doj. They're not moving fast enough to go after his targets. That he's reportedly attacked Attorney General Pam Bondi, saying she's weak and ineffective. Of course you have to translate this when he says weak in this instance. If he means that she's not going further down the line for fact free or evidence free, illegal, selective prosecution. What he's actually saying is she can't get his corrupt agenda done. Ms. Now is reporting that four prosecutors from the Civil Rights Division are resigning after a clash over that terrible shooting in Minnesota. Six more prosecutors also resigning there over a push to investigate the victim's widow. Influential podcaster Joe Rogan, who was a big key voice for Trump and hosted him in a widely viewed interview in the close of the 24 campaign, has continued to use his platform, which I'll remind you has a broader reach than many TV shows, to criticize the ICE policy.

[E]

You don't want militarized people in the streets just roaming around, snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be U.S. citizens. They just don't have their papers on them. Are we really going to be the Gestapo? Where's your papers? Is that what we've come to?

[B]

If Trump's friends say he's running a gestapo, what's everyone else going to say? That's where we are now. We're joined by law Professor Melissa Murray from nyu, an MSL legal contributor. The Powell domino professor is falling hard. I've shown how this particular person apparently has attracted an ire that others did not. Politics, though, which is interacting with the law, is about addition. So I think critics of the president are happy to find, oh, this one triggered Wall street. Someone else triggered something else. What do you think is happening here in the president's complete inability to get the DOJ to win these cases?

[F]

So let's just be clear. The DOJ has actually done quite a lot for this president. They've abandoned a lot of the use of force prosecutions that we have seen in previous administrations. They have focused on this retribution campaign like they may not have been successful in prosecuting those cases to completion, but they have struck fear in the hearts of lot of people who might be critics of this administration. And that, I think, is a win for the administration. I mean, a main thing that you want to do if you're trying to promote this kind of change within the government, is to silence dissent. And so make no mistake about it, the Department of Justice has been very effective in deterring and chilling that kind of conduct because of what they are willing to do in defense of this president, even if it's not always successful. I think the reason why Powell has not hit the way that it wants to is he's so closely connected to the Fed. Everyone recognizes that his term is going to end in May. It doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to roil the markets. It doesn't have to create this kind of economic instability at a time when the country is already reeling from a lack of affordability and people are really worried about where the economy is, even people within the Trump inner circle. So I think part of why this hasn't hit the way he wants it to is that it seems really unnecessary at this point.

[B]

The Wall Street Journal calls this Lawfare for Dummies. That's the term that the right wing has used when they say something selective in the annals of political lawfare. There's dumb, the Journal writes, and then there's the criminal subpoena prosecutors delivered to Chairman Powell.

[F]

So, I mean, yes, this seems to be the case. I mean, part of it is there's a lot of distraction going on. Like, we've been talking about Powell, we've been talking about Venezuela. We haven't been talking about why the Department of Justice hasn't produced all of the Epstein files that they are required by law to do at this point. And that has been something.

[B]

It depends who we is.

[F]

Well, not you, obviously, you've been talking about.

[B]

I mean, I hear you. Well, we cover that case a lot.

[F]

We cover that case a lot.

[B]

But next you're going to tell me we're not doing enough music, not spitting enough bars.

[F]

No, you are always spitting bars, Ari. But I think for the general public, there's so many things in the fire, in the political climate, that it's hard to sort of keep track. And, you know, that may be a place where the Department of Justice genuinely wants the public to be distracted from, from what is going on there. So there is that. The other thing I think that's really interesting with regard to Powell, is how reckless it seems like the Court, the Supreme Court right now is, has a case before it pending about Lisa Cook, who is also a governor of the Federal Reserve she has been ousted by the president. The court prevented him from ousting her entirely, but they're going to hear this case about whether he is able to remove her with or without cause. The fact that he is picking this fight with Jerome Powell on the eve of oral arguments, it just smacks of recklessness. I mean, we've seen this court, like, they may not always be entirely attentive to what is going on in the public, but they definitely seem to think that there's something different about the Fed. And I think they would see an.

[B]

Assault on the Fed. Well, let's get into it, because the Fed is closer to the judicial branch than it is to an agency. If you simplify, people say, oh, look, the president's in charge of the government. Then you go, well, when judges rule against presidents, we all know they also work for the federal government. They also get a paycheck from the federal government, and people forget it. That's why we have this whole thing with branches, and the Fed's not its own branch. But historically, no president in either party has ever tried to do what he's doing or to do like fake cause. I mean, I think we have to call it what it is. There's no clear malfeasance with Cook. Nobody disagrees that. If you found someone embezzling stuff, whatever, then, yeah, you have a process there. He's basically trying to oust two members of the Fed to get the sugar high we reported on tonight. Don't you think an honest Supreme Court would say, well, if you can do that, then then it's not independent?

[F]

Well, I think that is exactly the point. I mean, the fact everyone knows what the point of all of this is. It's to joke the numbers, as they would say on the wire, get interest rates low, make the housing markets more effective going forward into the midterms. That's the plan. And everyone seems to know that they're doing this on the eve of this oral argument. That I think is going to have real repercussions for presidential authority. The Fed is almost sacrosanct to this court, perhaps because it is an independent branch and much the way the judiciary is an independent branch. Maybe it's because many of these justices have their own retirement accounts that they would like to see insulated from the shocks of the market.

[B]

Think with Roberts and perhaps Barrett, there would be skepticism against Trump.

[F]

I think we will see skepticism. I think we saw skepticism in the tariffs cases. And again, like the tariffs case was argued right after that November 2025 election where the Democrats ran the table. And I don't think you can disconnect the skepticism the court had for the terrorists from what they saw the night like that week in the elections. Like I think those two were inextricably linked. Court understands the zeitgeist. I think they're going to see what's going on with the Jerome Powell. It's going to bleed into that oral argument on Lisa Cook's case.

[B]

And we learned that you're a Wire fan.

[F]

I'm a fan of a lot of things, Ari.

[B]

Go on. What else?

[F]

I'm a person of many, many interests.

[B]

What's another show you like?

[F]

Well, I will tease up what's coming next. I'm a big fan of Mad Men.

[B]

Talk about it. So you got to meet our upcoming guest, John, who we can see on the screen. You got to meet him because now you're letting people know how it works. We have a little green room and you were in there with John.

[F]

It's not often that I'm gobsmacked. I see a lot of people here at Ms. Now. But I was truly, truly starstruck.

[B]

By the way, did you feel like you were in the 1950s?

[F]

I did not feel I was in the 1950s. He's very wearing very cool sneakers. But I was tongue tied for a.

[B]

Brief moment and that's okay because we all get like that when you have something you love. I appreciate that. Final note, our thanks to Professor Murray. I'll tell folks, you know, CBS has caught a lot of heat for its Trumpification. And at the award shows, Nikki Glaser made a joke about CBS helping Trump on cbs. Take a look. And the award for most editing goes to.

[H]

CBS News.

[B]

Yes, CBS News, America's newest place to CBS News, friendly fire coming from inside the building. We're going to get into culture and laughter from history with the aforementioned John Slattery, who has a fan and Melissa Murray when we come back next. There is a lot going on at home and abroad. We've recently seen a renewed discussion of what war powers the president has, how international law works. We have a president who all but claims maybe it doesn't apply to him. We also have the awards season this week. I just remind everyone of that. And you think about which artists kind of connect with us. Some people say it's a time for putting politics aside. Others say it's a time to speak out. There's a film that's got a lot of critical interest, Nuremberg, which tells the story of the international tribunal which prosecuted the horrific War crimes at the end of World War II.

[E]

Dr. Kelly, Central Command thinks you're some kind of hotshot head shrinker. You will inspect and ensure the prisoner's mental health. You are standing inside a secret military prison. It houses what's left of the Nazi high command.

[D]

Never do that in my prison again.

[B]

Nurberg has been dubbed a handsomely crafted historical drama according to reviews and its Rotten Tomatoes summary, which, full disclosure, is one of our sister websites, but I've been using it long before they were in the company. It includes the award winning actor John Slattery, known of course for Mad Men and the Avengers films. And to Professor Melissa Murray's delight, he makes his Beat debut now. So great to have you.

[E]

Thank you. Thanks. Good to be here.

[B]

What does this project mean to you and mean to you right now?

[E]

Well, sadly, more relevant, you know, by the week. However, it was written 13 years ago. Jamie Vanderbilt bought the property in galleys. Thought it was an interesting angle on the story of the Nuremberg Trial. The, the story between the psychiatrist Doug Kelly and Herman Goering, played by Russell Crowe. So I mean, it was just a great story and a great angle to a story that I knew a little about. I think like most people know a little about the Nuremberg Trial, but not all the precedent setting that it did. It's the first time film footage was used as evidence. Crimes against humanity was the coinage for that enterprise. It's just a great story, great cast.

[B]

The horrors of World War II, and particularly the Nazis, ended up being the spark for things that later generations take as a given. That we have the United nations and whether you criticize it or not, we all meet up there and talk. We didn't have that before World War II. We have a declaration of human rights. It doesn't always get followed, but it's some kind of baseline. We have a Security Council. You look at Venezuela. How does this film sort of give us the human balance to coming out of what was the greatest war in world history?

[E]

I mean, I think the Allies were determined to show the world the devastation wrought by the Nazis. A lot of people wanted to execute them. The devastation was obvious. The crimes were obvious, and go home after a long war. But it was important to show that this happened and, and, and so that theoretically it wouldn't happen again. I mean, over the course of history, it's, it's, that's become more and more theoretical.

[B]

As a artist, does it interest you more to have those super stakes? I mean, we'll get to Mad Men, a beloved show, and then some people would say, although it touched on so many things. But some people would say, well, this is. You know, they're meeting about business. What's the. Yeah, what's the whole hubbub about? You remember that in the early years, and here it's the opposite. You're in a thing where it's like the most important thing ever. Do you like that? Or is that intimidating to perform?

[E]

It's not a documentary. It's not written to be that. It's a. Written as a thriller.

[B]

But it's heavy.

[E]

It is heavy. It's a heavy subject. But I. But it's emotional. I mean, it's a narrative, and it's a thrilling movie and an emotional piece. And the guy I played was a real person who had the very difficult task of housing these prisoners with the eyes of the world on them and not making any mistakes and not letting them commit suicide before they were put on trial to pay for what they'd done. So it was just an exciting. You connect on the historical level, but also on the emotional level. And it kind of hit all those buttons for me. And we had a great time doing it.

[B]

Is there a reason why you thrive in period pieces? In pieces from the past?

[D]

Yeah, I don't.

[E]

I don't know. Maybe it's my. My ability to. To wear a uniform. I don't know. There's some authority that I absolutely have none of in. In my real life. And I get put in these positions of fake authority like you and your agent.

[B]

It's like, oh, they want you for this period in the 40s and the 50s. Certainly this has crossed your mind. I don't know.

[E]

Maybe I. Slight facility with language. Maybe it was people were, you know, they. I don't know, talk fast in the 40s. I don't know. I don't know. Mad Men.

[B]

But you're aware of this.

[E]

Well, I guess I. Yeah, you're like a classic.

[B]

You're like a throwback.

[E]

A lot of period pieces.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's. This is.

[E]

Yeah, it's fun.

[B]

We now go to one great piece of wisdom from Roger Sterling, your character in Mad Men. Let's take a look.

[E]

Oh, look, life is supposed to be a path, and you go along and these things happen to you and they're supposed to change you, change your direction. But it turns out that's not true. Turns out the experiences are nothing. They're just some pennies you pick up off the floor, stick in your pocket. You're just going in a straight line to, you know, where.

[B]

Why do People resonate with him. What do you get from that character.

[E]

Who'S so beloved, I think with a lot of those characters. And what was so great about the writing was you thought you knew pretty much where that person was going to come down on any issue. And then they fooled you and was more human than you expected or more vulnerable than you expected, or less so and more educated about subjects that you didn't expect them to be. And I mean, that was just, it was surprising. And, and it wasn't about the, the events of history. It was about the, the witnesses. I mean, that's what they were. They weren't, they weren't superheroes. They were just the witnesses to these historical events that took place from 1960 to 1970. And that was, I think, you know, what, reflecting all those iconic moments.

[B]

And you felt that was probably more relatable precisely because it was people in their daily lives. Right.

[E]

I mean, it was like, what, you know, what did the, the, the Marilyn Monroe's death affect Joan or the Kennedy assassination on the day that my daughter got married? Or, you know, that was how it affected people's lives.

[B]

I mean, and if I may, Day drinking.

[E]

And there's day drinking.

[B]

There's day drinking.

[E]

It was morning drinking, which you can't.

[B]

Yeah, morning drinking, which, I mean, when I went and joined a law firm, you know, there were rooms that looked vaguely like Mad Men, but no one was drinking during the day. Martinis were smaller.

[E]

That was, I think, one of the reasons. The three martini lunch, they were like this big.

[B]

All right, a couple sips. A commitment to historical accuracy. Really appreciate you coming on, John. I hope you come back. And again, the film is Nuremberg out Now, up next, we will look at the related questions in the real world of how the United States under Trump may be violating new international laws. Turning from stories about war crimes in history to war crimes investigations today, there are new reports that in September's deadly boat strike off the Venezuelan coast under Trump, the US had the Pentagon pilot a, quote, secret aircraft painted like a civilian plane, also concealing its munitions rather than storing them under its wings. That was a strike that killed 11. Just about everybody knows, and the Pentagon certainly knows, the laws of armed conflict flatly prohibit combatants from pretending to be civilians to fool adversaries. That is, of course, a law of war that is designed to protect innocent civilians on all sides. It's a war crime. The administration has also bragged that they will run Venezuela, which is drawing its own kind of ridicule in America.

[D]

Why is the President of the United States declaring on Wikipedia that he is now the President of Venezuela. Doesn't your oath of office to America have a non compete? What are we doing? What are you just trying to pick up a few extra hours? What?

[B]

The holidays hit you hard? That's the funny part. The serious problems require a serious approach. Looking at why the United States is now embroiled in several war crimes probes that involve deadly strikes and whether anyone in the Congress or elsewhere is going to be consistent. Because this is not and cannot be a partisan matter. We'll be right back.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Finally, tonight, I want to share some highlights from our summit series. Take a look.

[E]

Being judgmental to me just means I have standards.

[B]

Well, let's just go through it.

[G]

They scream a brace for impact.

[B]

This is a real Dr. Jane Goodall Barbie. A Barbie doll that encourages little girls to think that I can do that. Reaching the summit means trying harder every day. Peace and fulfillment. I feel like I'm in the foothills. You have done something positive with the power that the summit has given you. That I haven't got there yet, I hope. I want to share with you. We have a new website for this with our new name Ms. Now so you can go to Ms. Now Summit and you will get our YouTube playlist for many of those interviews. Wisdom that you can share for them the friends and family. A lot of them are long form so they were longer than what aired right here on television. If you're interested and thanks for spending time with us on the beat.

[H]

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[C]

You just want something good.

[H]

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