Trump Tells Military The U.S. Is "Under Invasion From Within"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump Tells Military The U.S. Is 'Under Invasion From Within'"

Podcast: The Beat with Ari Melber (MSNBC)
Host: Ari Melber
Date: September 30, 2025
Guests: Paul Rykoff (Independent Veterans of America), Bill Kristol (The Bulwark), Don Lemon (The Don Lemon Show), Professor Toby Stewart (UC Berkeley)

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Overview:

This episode tackles President Donald Trump’s highly controversial address to military leadership, where he described U.S. cities as “training grounds” and asserted the nation was “under invasion from within.” Ari Melber analyzes Trump’s unprecedented rhetoric, its legal, historical, and societal implications, and brings in expert guests to discuss the normalization of militarized domestic politics, the current shutdown battle in Congress, tech platform capitulation to Trump, and the myth and realities of the American dream.

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Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Trump's Unprecedented Speech to the Military

[01:08 – 08:22]

• Summary: Ari Melber opens by highlighting the extreme and partisan nature of President Trump’s address, which summoned hundreds of top generals and admirals at great expense. Trump presses the military to “attack the enemy within” and suggests using American cities as military training grounds, shifting rhetoric from “public safety” to what he frames as “domestic war.”
• Trump Quote:
  • “He explicitly said this military ... must better focus on attacking, quote, the enemy within.” – Ari Melber [01:35]
  • “Portland, Oregon, where it looks like a war zone. ... We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard, but military, because we're going into Chicago very soon.” – Donald Trump [03:41]
  • “America is under invasion from within … No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms.” – Donald Trump [06:35]
• Analysis:
  • Melber points out that talk of deploying the military for crime is not new, but treating U.S. cities as war zones and Americans as enemies is uncharted Constitutional territory.
  • The president’s claims blur the line between civil unrest and military threats, ratcheting up fear and partisanship.

2. The Military’s Nonpartisanship and Response

[07:14 – 09:47]

• Military Silence: The assembled generals and admirals remain silent, in line with military protocols prohibiting participation in partisan politics.
• Trump Reacts:
  • “I've never walked into a room so silent before. ... If you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank, there.” – Donald Trump [08:15]
• Fact Check:
  • “Under the military rules ... you cannot cheer political remarks in uniform, period.” – Ari Melber [08:36]

3. Paul Rykoff on Dangerous Precedents

[09:31 – 12:55]

• Rykoff’s View:
  • “Nothing about it was traditional. The entire thing is unprecedented. We didn't gather all our senior military leaders after 9/11 ... This is the latest step in the removal of the guardrails that protect the politicization of our military.” – Paul Rykoff [09:40]
  • “They did not applaud. ... The audience was not the generals in the room. The audience was the American public ... This was a power flex.” – Paul Rykoff [10:47, 11:13]
• On Disinformation:
  • “Trump and Hegseth got what they wanted, which was the content and the giant photo op.” – Paul Rykoff [11:13]
  • “He literally has a scoreboard, and he's lining up the pieces to take the [cities].” – Paul Rykoff [12:04]

4. Bill Kristol on the Weaponization and Transformation of the Military

[14:56 – 17:20]

• Military as Political Weapon:
  • “Trump wants to turn the military into something like ICE ... but nothing like what the military could do.” – Bill Kristol [15:49]
  • Kristol raises alarm about the further politicization of the military under Trump’s influence, especially if his allies continue reshaping promotion boards.
• Potential for Expansion:
  • Kristol expresses concern about what the military could become by the end of another Trump term.

5. Abuse of Power and Threats to Democracy

[17:20 – 19:46]

• Tying Words to Actions:
  • Ari Melber notes that previous presidents have used war rhetoric for social issues, but Trump is matching words with deployments—sometimes “over the objections of local officials, very anti-conservative.”
• Paul Rykoff on Mission Creep:
  • “The worst mission you can give an American soldier ... is putting us in the middle of civil unrest in Portland, in Chicago, in Los Angeles.” – Paul Rykoff [18:38]
  • Rykoff and Kristol warn about the military being narrowed along political lines and purged of dissent, creating “Trump’s military”—which they consider “the worst course of action.”

6. Comic Relief and Satire on Portland 'Wars'

[20:18 – 21:14]

• Don Lemon on Late Night Jokes:
  • Satirical comment on Trump's depiction of Portland:
    • “Our nation is at war with Oregon.” – Don Lemon [20:18]
    • “Don’t shoot till you see the whites of their cold foam half caf latte art.” – Ari Melber [20:33]
• Underlying Seriousness:
  • “It would be funny if it was only rhetoric. ... But it is also serious.” – Ari Melber [20:58]

7. Media Accountability and the Need for More Voices

[21:14 – 22:36]

• Kristol urges former secretaries of defense and senior military officials to speak out against politicization of the military, as silence could be interpreted as acquiescence.

8. Shutdown Showdown, AI Propaganda, and Tech Capitulation

[23:45 – 31:31]

• Congressional Shutdown:
  • Discussion of whether Democrats have a clear agenda (healthcare), and whether they will fight for it amid Republican attacks.
  • Don Lemon: “This is kind of a fight for the soul of the Democratic Party.” [25:30]
• Trump's Use of AI for Political Attacks:
  • Growing Trump “AI attack” videos, using racist caricatures and fabricated dialogue.
  • Don Lemon: “What Donald Trump is doing, if you watched him today in Quantico, it's not normal.” [27:40]
• Big Tech’s Response:
  • Melber and Lemon analyze YouTube and other platforms’ enforcement and recent settlement with Trump:
    • “These platforms are privately owned ... They can say this is how you conduct yourself. And if you don't, we can kick you off.” – Don Lemon [29:20]
    • On loopholes and enforcement: “The only reason I believe that these folks are caving is because they don't want their business interfered with in Washington.” – Don Lemon [30:07]
• Free Speech vs. Incitement:
  • Lemon emphasizes clear standards: “If it promotes violence in any way, then it's not considered free speech.” [30:59]

9. Reflections on Journalism and Authenticity

[32:35 – 35:59]

• Don Lemon’s Journey:
  • Lemon shares how he learned to be authentic on air, dismissing “perfection” in favor of realness and engagement with audiences:
    • “I just try to be myself and be authentic. ... Perfection is boring.” – Don Lemon [33:52, 34:42]
    • Ari Melber quips with a Lil Wayne quote about being real [35:03].

10. The American Dream: Status vs. Merit (with Prof. Toby Stewart)

[37:02 – 44:09]

• Debating the American Dream:
  • Melber introduces discussion on social mobility, status, and meritocracy myths in America, citing downward trends in generational progress and persistent inequality.
• Professor Stewart:
  • “It isn’t that hard work doesn’t matter. ... But it, it isn’t most of the story.” [39:06]
  • Social status often outweighs merit, further cemented by geography (zip code of birth), connections, and prestige over true achievement.
• Prestige vs. Achievement:
  • “There are lots of people who have really high status that ... didn't really earn all of their status.” – Toby Stewart [42:30]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ari Melber, on Trump’s speech:
  “If we get to a wartime footing, if we see this president trying to summon war powers ... don't say he didn't warn you and don't say you didn't hear about it.” [04:16]

• Paul Rykoff, on military norms:
  “Nothing about it was traditional. The entire thing is unprecedented.” [09:40]

• Bill Kristol, on future risks:
  “Where will we be by ... late 2028 to pick a rather important moment? So that's worrisome.” [15:49]

• Don Lemon, on platform controls:
  “These platforms are privately owned platforms and they can say this is how you conduct yourself. ... Donald Trump didn’t conduct himself properly. ... The only reason I believe ... [they’re caving] is because they don’t want their business interfered with in Washington.” [29:20, 30:07]

• Toby Stewart, on status vs. merit:
  “It isn’t that hard work doesn’t matter ... but it isn’t most of the story.” [39:14]
  “There are lots of people who have really high status ... that by any sort of honest sense of merit didn't really earn all of their status.” [42:30]

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Trump’s latest remarks represent a radical departure from the established civil-military boundaries and openly threaten the tradition of a nonpartisan military by labeling political opponents as “the enemy within.”
• The military’s leadership maintained professionalism and silence, a silent rebuke more than endorsement.
• Experts warn that normalization of this rhetoric and action, coupled with changing norms in military leadership and tech platform accountability, pose dire risks to institutional trust and democracy itself.
• The episode’s latter half delves into the growing disconnect between the ideal of the American dream and the reality of social immobility, exacerbated by status and structural inequality, not simply lack of merit.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

This summary captures the heart of a critical and urgent discussion about the state of American democracy, military norms, propaganda, and aspirations. The host and guests provide both context and actionable insights, making the episode essential for anyone concerned with the direction of U.S. politics and society.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melbourne. Today the President made what are widely called unusual, perhaps unprecedented remarks in the modern era, and I'm going to show you exactly what he said and why. Military veterans and many other experts on a nonpartisan basis say this is one of those inflection points you need to confront. It is unusual to gather this many members of the military in peacetime. The president made this public address so everyone can see and hear what he is saying to the military. And he explicitly said this military, under this Trump administration must better focus on attacking, quote, the enemy within. And as for the controversial and sometimes legally overruled use of the just the National Guard in America, the president rhetorically pushing past that, explaining that he views the military, which we'll show you, was quite careful to be quiet during what were widely seen as partisan remarks. He will use the military on American cities for what he calls a training ground for a new type of war. Now, some of this may be rhetoric alone. There is always a difference when you observe and cover the government between what politicians say and what they do. If we were covering this speech for you tonight and there had not been the deployment of National Guard and other federal forces in the nation's capital in California, and skirmishes over it in many other places, it would look different. But our job is to report to you what the president is saying and what he is doing, what he is trying to get away with, sometimes under very pitched court battles. The context here, hundreds of generals and admirals were summoned at a cost of many millions of dollars from their posts around the world to hear the president. Now, again, in all fairness, although that itself is unusual, the president can do that. He commander in chief, and he may have reasons, policy or otherwise, that he wants to summon them. And had this been a normal address about patriotism or readiness or even foreign policy goals, people could debate it. But that would be a more conventional use of the commander in chief powers. Instead, he used those powers summoning these people up, up and down the rank to talk politics, to talk partisanship, to talk about how he wants to use the military on you. If you are watching this inside America, that, of course, breaks with a long part, long nonpartisan tradition of how to address the military. There's also the discussion in here that the Pentagon should regard U.S. cities as, quote, a big part of war.

[Donald Trump]

Portland, Oregon, where it looks like a war zone. They're brave in our inner cities, which we're going to be talking about because it's a big part of war now. It's a big part of war. The radical left Democrats, what they've done to San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, they're very unsafe places and we're going to straighten them out one by one. We should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard, but military, because we're going into Chicago very soon.

[Ari Melber]

The president making a wholly unprecedented claim that the military should use cities where Americans live as, quote, training grounds. Now, again, in all fairness, a sitting president has every right to talk about crime in the country and how to deal with it. Most of that's dealt with at the local level. Police tend to be part of your local government. That's why if you are in trouble, you're usually dealing with the police. Right. You're not dealing with the FBI, but there are times where there are federal crimes as well. President is well within his grounds in general to talk about trying to lower crime in America, but having the US Military do it and call it war way out of bounds. The Washington Post reporting this new speech marks the first time President Trump publicly directed military leaders to be a major part of fighting a war from within US Cities. If we get to a wartime footing, if we see this president trying to summon war powers in our country, don't say he didn't warn you and don't say you didn't hear about it. If you're reasonably informed, you can watch it on the news or read it on your phone. But we have been warned it's not happening in a vacuum. The president has already sent, as mentioned, all kinds of federal agents and troops into various places. Sometimes masked agents carrying out lawful immigration authorities, but in unusual ways. Sometimes military troops to Los Angeles. Again, partly overruled in the courts. And in our nation's capital, where there's a time limit he may yet test under under law. And vowing, as you heard just there, to do more of this in the coming days, people close to Trump and former aides say this is part of something he is planning to test or abuse national emergency powers in the future to distort elections or potentially try to reverse an outcome. And before you say, well, that sounds like a hypothetical, the president, current President Trump, lost one election and he did not leave peacefully. We all lived through that. This was a vindictive tone from the president today. I'll let you hear it for yourself. As he insists US Troops should now target Americans, which he calls again, the politician. His opinion. He calls them the domestic enemy.

[Donald Trump]

Last month, I signed an executive order to provide training for quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within and we have to handle it before it gets out of control. While America is under invasion from within, we're under invasion from within. No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms. At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out. These people don't have uniforms, but we are under invasion from within.

[Ari Melber]

The president making a claim there that is essentially false. Rhetorically. As a matter of language, you can't be under invasion from within. As a matter of foreign policy, you have to identify a foreign threat, usually a country, sometimes what they call a non state actor. But it's a foreign threat, not fellow Americans. Now, what you see here is important. The assembled generals, admirals and others there were respectful but silent. Under military protocol, anything deemed a partisan or political address or claim, unlike, say, a pledge of allegiance, will be met with silence. And just about everyone in that room, best we could tell from our reporting, met that standard. Indeed, for Donald Trump, who so assiduously courts political audiences, holds more rallies than others, he was unaccustomed to a room this silent, and he felt the need to note it while also issuing a statement that I'll let you Assess for yourself.

[Donald Trump]

I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very. Don't laugh, don't laugh. You're not allowed to do that.

[Ari Melber]

You know what?

[Donald Trump]

Just have a good time. And if you want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want. And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank, there.

[Bill Kristol]

Goes your future.

[Ari Melber]

There goes your rank and future if you leave the room. A fact check. The president said, if you want to applaud, applaud as if it is a personal choice. And that may have just been a sentence, a slip of the tongue, but fact check, false. Under the military rules, it is not about the personal agreement or whether you choose or want to cheer or not. Like many other rules in our nonpartisan military. It's not about the person. It is about a wider vow to defend the country and the Constitution. You cannot cheer political remarks in uniform, period. I want to bring in Paul Rakoff, who's the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, host of the Independent Americans podcast, and someone who has, through his service and his advocacy, been a leading voice on civil military relations for some time now. Welcome.

[Paul Rakoff]

Thank you for having me.

[Ari Melber]

What about this speech was traditional under the rules, and what departed from the rules? Just, just starting there.

[Paul Rakoff]

Nothing about it was traditional. The entire thing is unprecedented. We didn't gather all our senior military leaders after 9, 11. So there is no precedent for this. And I think that's really important to frame. What is the latest step in the removal of the guardrails that protect the politicization of our military? I've said for weeks, and especially right now, the most important story, America and in the world, is that Donald Trump can do whatever he wants with the greatest military the world has ever seen. That includes bombing Iran, that includes hitting ships off the coast of Venezuela. It includes sending troops into American cities now like Portland, and it includes bringing together over 800 generals from around the world for what turned into a very overtly inappropriate, unacceptable political speech that was bookended by kind of a culture war TED Talk from Pete Hegseth, who is hollow, who is fragile. And I think it was a very deep low point, not just for our military, but for our democracy.

[Ari Melber]

And the president. Let me ask you, President. The president says, oh, you can applaud if you want to and agree. Right. But that's not what the military rules say.

[Bill Kristol]

Right.

[Paul Rakoff]

And I think if there's a silver lining the discipline and military bearing of the generals in that room. Is it. They did not applaud. They held their bearing. Most of them didn't want to be there and know this is inappropriate and unacceptable. They showed up and they spoke volumes with their silence. But there's an important point here. They got what they wanted. Trump and Hegseth got what they wanted, which was the content and the giant photo op. The audience was not the generals in the room. The audience was the American public.

[Ari Melber]

Right. The audience was the world.

[Paul Rakoff]

And what the message was is, I have total control of the military. This is the late example of a power flex.

[Ari Melber]

Let me give you another part to fact check from your knowledge base. When he went partisan on what he calls the radical left.

[Donald Trump]

We won every swing state. We won the popular vote. We won everything. We want everything. You have to take a look at the map. It's almost entirely red, except there's a little blue line on each coast, and I think that's going to disappear, too. But he had no clue. The people that ran the office, the White House, were people that surrounded him. Radical left lunatics. A lot of these insurrectionists are paid by, whether it's Soros or other people, but they're paid by the radical left.

[Paul Rakoff]

It's false, it's dangerous. It's also dishonorable. I think what was revealed to me, you could feel it in his kind of his unease with being in a room like that. He's not used to having folks not fawn all over him. Hegseth, too, even at the end, there was a moment where I almost felt like Hegseth was gonna have a conscience moment, right where he could realize how poorly his message was being received. But I think it's an important reminder to America that our military leaders are nonpartisan. They have held the line in the past. General Milley and others are the best examples. But we are deep in uncharted territories, and he is telegraphing his punches. He is on plan. He said he's gonna do this. He said he's gonna deploy troops domestically, and he's doing it. And I think the question for the Republicans and the Democrats is, what are you gonna do to stop it? Cause he's told you Portland, he's saying Chicago, he's saying New York. He literally has a scoreboard, and he's lining up the pieces to take the.

[Ari Melber]

And. And you're speaking very clearly about what that threat is. He's talking about abusing power domestically, but it is also the threat from within, from the commander in chief. You're saying, take it seriously. I want to play for you. When he talks also about how to use the troops. You're staying with me. We have Our shortest break, 90 seconds. Paul Rakoff and a special guest when we come back.

[Don Lemon]

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[Ari Melber]

Joining our discussion on this unusual address by the president to the military is Bill Kristol, a White House veteran, editor of the Bulwark, former chief of staff to Vice President Quayle Paul Rykoff. Still with us, Bill, the context for what Paul Rykoff was just telling us tonight that this is a very real threat and that the president wanted to use or program this appearance for the country to makes even more sense when you look at this chart where people distrust many institutions these days. Supreme Court near record lows with what it's been up to Congress. Let's not even get into it, Bill. Presidency includes Trump low. The military held in much higher regard when it comes to a great deal or a lot of trust in that institution. Where does that figure into this bill and how do you view the president's address?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, he clearly wanted to use this as a moment to not persuade the generals. I very much agree with Paul on that. And they weren't. The good news is they didn't seem eager to be persuaded. And I know some of those men and women and Paul knows more of them and I don't think they're on board with the agenda of going to war with American citizens at home. Now, incidentally, one thing to think about is after three years of Hegseth controlling promotion boards, hiring and firing, shaping the military, where will we be by, let's say, mid late 2028 to pick a rather important moment? So that's worrisome. Trump wants to turn the military into something like ice. ICE is an out of control agency. It's a small one at this point, at least 10,000, maybe 15. It's going to grow because of the appropriations, but still it is basically it is waging war. And some people, I would put it this way, in American cities, pretty uncontrolled but and doing a lot of damage, but nothing like what the military could do. And for me, that ominous moment you mentioned, this sentence, it will be a major part for some of the people in this room. Trump said, talking about the war at home, the war against the quote, enemy within, that that is signaling that he expects the US Military to be, you know, Portland is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg. Now will the military go along with that? Will Congress go along with that? Will the courts go along with that? I hope not. I think the military will resist. For now. I'd like to see a little more vocal help. The military could use a little help though. Those generals were impressive today. And flag officers.

[Ari Melber]

Well, Bill, you tied the line to the actions. What he's trying to do to ICE what he's done with the troops. Because if it were the words alone, we've heard presidents talk about a war on poverty, the Democratic side, a war on drugs, on the Republican side. The rhetoric alone is not unprecedented. But you combine that with what you just said, Bill, the repeated deployment, sometimes over the objections of local officials, very anti conservative of troops, camo Marines in California. Leading up to what, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, I fear that it's leading up to a real attempt to seize control of many aspects of life in our nation, including presumably the way the elections are run, a lot of other aspects of law enforcement. This recent national security memoranda suggests that he very much doesn't suggest. He says he wants to target Groups whom he will accuse and individuals whom he accuses of fostering domestic terrorism, which he defines extremely broadly, with none of the normal First Amendment constraints on the fact that we're entitled to have views that the Trump administration doesn't agree with. You put together that national security memorandum from Thursday and that speech today, and we are in very dangerous waters, I.

[Paul Rakoff]

Think, Paul, and it's not limited to domestic operations. I mean, he's hit multiple countries. He's hit Yemen, Iran and Venezuela. He's talked about hitting Mexico. There's reports that a Navy SEAL operation was conducted in 2019 in North Korea. This can go much further. Again, he has total control of the most powerful military on the planet. And I think the manipulation of the threat is very important because there is a very real threat to our national security from domestic terror. It comes from the left and from the right. It's real, but it's not woven into his political enemies, which is a very crafty and dangerous manipulation that also tremendously undermines that trust in our troops. The worst mission you can give an American soldier, in my view, is not going to the Middle east, is not going to fight terrorists. It's putting us in the middle of civil unrest in Portland, in Chicago, in Los Angeles. And that's nothing that people want to sign up for except culture warriors. And that's what Bill is talking about, is very appropriate. The narrowing of the military, the purging on top, the reduction of the pool that you're recruiting from is creating Trump's military. That's always been the worst course of action.

[Ari Melber]

Now, Bill, this is serious. You might think, what's funny in all this? I can play some late night sound or dealer's choice. Bill, if you have a really good joke, you can tell it.

[Bill Kristol]

No joke. No joke.

[Ari Melber]

You don't want to do it?

[Bill Kristol]

Okay.

[Ari Melber]

No, no. You got Ideal's choice. Means you get to tell the joke or listen to the joke.

[Bill Kristol]

Okay, I thought dealer's choice means I get to choose. I'll get to choose.

[Ari Melber]

You chose no. But among those two options. Here's the. Here's how late night is viewing all this.

[Don Lemon]

Our nation is at war with Oregon.

[Ari Melber]

It's war again. The battle of Portland, when we freed.

[Don Lemon]

The citizens from the tyranny of overpriced.

[Ari Melber]

Donut shops and white ladies with dreadlocks named Raindrop. The only crime in Portland is the price of locally sourced honey. Portland. Did I miss Vancouver? Attacking Portland in a fierce battle of mellow artisans. Don't shoot till you see the whites of their cold Foam half caf latte art.

[Don Lemon]

Around here for a long time.

[Ari Melber]

Until it would be funny if it was only rhetoric. As I mentioned, it's also serious. But what do you think of that point in the punchline for people who are busy living their lives and look up and laugh at these jokes? Because the joke is on the president.

[Bill Kristol]

No. And I think Trump's probably hurt himself some by pretending that Portland's a horrible war zone. And then all weekend you could see video and photos of people going about their lives in Portland and Trump's depending on some footage from five years ago, which, which lasted for a few days or a couple of weeks. And so I do think anything that weakens Trump's ability honestly to sell this propaganda is important. But one point I will make, just listening to Paul maybe makes me think of this too. There are a lot of former secretaries of defense who are alive and senior officials in the defense. There are former military officials who has to be a little more the tradition is there, a little more careful about getting involved in public policy fights and political fights even in retirement. But this is not a normal policy debate or even a normal political debate. And I think they need to help their compatriots, their colleagues who are still in the military. These guys, I think, are going to do their best within the constraints of what they can do to try to keep the military from becoming ice. But there are a lot of people who have a lot of credibility who could be saying a heck of a lot more than they're saying right now. And a lot of them, I think most of them honestly agree with Paul and me, but they've constrained themselves much too much. I don't believe on it.

[Ari Melber]

Where are they?

[Bill Kristol]

Where are the former secretaries of defense? I mean, wouldn't that make some difference if you're a normal citizen, you're not of certain. Trump says this, Heg says that maybe they're right. It would help a lot to have Democratic and Republican senior officials, national security officials saying this is unacceptable.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. All important points driven from experience. Both of you have done, of course, public service. Paul serving our military Bill and Paul, thanks to both of you, head. There is the backlash to tech titans surrendering to Trump. And Washington Democrats are staring down this shutdown game again. But tonight we are going full citrus. Get your lemon drop ready because Don Lemon is here.

[Don Lemon]

I don't know. I kind of recognize this guy.

[Paul Rakoff]

I'm a little disappointed that Don couldn't make the show.

[Ari Melber]

Don, what do you have to say about that?

[Don Lemon]

I'm very disappointed as Well, I didn't get George's invitation. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Alex Witt]

It's in the mail.

[Ari Melber]

There are days where you need a drink and then there are days where you need a lemon or maybe a lemon themed drink. Which brings us to longtime veteran, journalist, host, anchor, author, Emmy winner, Don Lemon. He hosts the Don Lemon show, which streams on YouTube and podcast platforms. And he's here for his book, I Once Was Lost My Search for God in America. Welcome back.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. You know, I had a book before that, it's called this is the Fire, where I talk about a lot of the stuff that's happening now as well.

[Ari Melber]

A double book plug.

[Don Lemon]

A double.

[Ari Melber]

We recognize the hustle.

[Don Lemon]

You gotta get it in, you know, how are you?

[Ari Melber]

You know what ho said? Don't knock the hustle. Okay, I wanna do the shutdown with you briefly. It's not our lead story because best we can tell, shutdowns usually get worked out. Yeah, but you have Schumer and Jeffries. The headlines say, facing a leadership test. Cause it's about what are you fighting for? They say healthcare. NBC saying House Democratic caucus is relishing in the shutdown swagger from leader Jeffries, giving him a pair of standing ovations. I think we have this. But some Democrats nervous Schumer may cave. Is this the same rerun and is it good that Democrats say they actually have a thing, health care, that they're fighting for, keeping it affordable rather than just complaining about Trump?

[Don Lemon]

I think that Democrats have been very strategic and staying on message with this one to focus it on health care, because health care, what they want, you know, they're asking for to keep the Obama, the ACA tax credits. That helps not only Democrats, it helps Republicans. That helps everyone. Every politician in America should want every single American to have affordable health care. So I think the Democrats are playing it right this time. I think it's. It's tough for Republicans to say this is a Democrat's fault when they're in charge, in charge of every single lever of government. That's going to be a tough, tough one.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. Trump puts up these attacks. He put up a video. We're not going to show the whole video for context. I'm just going to show the image, which is this.

[Don Lemon]

Can I say something?

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Don Lemon]

You said that usually get worked out. I think you're right. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think that you're right. They usually get worked out. But I think this time the base of the Democratic Party wants the Democrats to fight back.

[Ari Melber]

This is fight to the end.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, they wanted to fight to the end. This is kind of a fight for the soul of the Democratic Party. So I think that they're going to. They're between a rock and a hard place on that part of it. Whether they come up with some sort of compromise or maybe 10 days, as Chuck Schumer was saying, or whether they just say, shut it down, that's going to be a tough one for the Democrats.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, yeah, I hear you on that. Yeah. The. This is Trump AI attack. It's a video. I'm not going to play the whole video because we don't find it meets our standards or is newsworthy. But I want to show, before I show Jeffrey's response, what he put up. It's basically this ridiculous, hateful, kind of a bigoted, doctored image in the video. He has the politicians saying things they don't really say. So we're the news. We're not going to tell you what it is because it's false. We have that standard. But Jeffries felt moved to respond. This is new. Here's what he said to the president. The next time you have something to say about me, don't cop out through.

[Toby Stewart]

A racist and fake AI video.

[Ari Melber]

When I'm back in the Oval Office. Say it to my face. Say it to my face. The leader saying, keep that same energy when you see me. What do you think of that response and what is the challenge? And I am not gassing you up when I say that. You have experience on both sides. You've done the traditional news thing for a long time. That's how a lot of people know you. You're out on the intern Internet, where we know you got to be a little looser and you got to deal with things. You can't just say, I would never touch that. Right. So what do you think of how Democrats deal with this kind of growing Trump AI attack and that energy?

[Don Lemon]

Well, that was a racist. You know, AI attack the mariachi ban. You hear that? And then the sombrero or whatever. And then, you know, just. It was. It's bad. What I like is that, you know, I don't have to be a little bit out there. I don't have to pretend anymore. I don't have to sit around these tables and. And preten. Like, this is normal. Like, how do we have a normal conversation about something that's not normal? What Donald Trump is doing, if you watched him today in Quantico, it's not normal.

[Ari Melber]

No.

[Don Lemon]

So for how do. What do you do about the AI generated. That just shows you the ridiculousness of all of this. It shows you how immature this administration is. The fact that Donald Trump or whoever is in charge of whatever department would allow people to post something like that or he would post something like that. Really, not only does it show you the ridiculousness of it, but it takes away any argument of some sort of legitimacy to what they're doing, how they're doing it. And you know, and conduct. We're in a whole different territory. So, you know, being out there now on streaming, speaking the truth, it's I loving it. Because again, I don't have to pretend like, hey, this is, you know, let's sit around and talk about how what Donald Trump is doing. It's like, this is ridiculous.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And these platforms allow for something very different, which we've seen in the politics moving there. The big tech titans are still settling with Trump at the higher level. Here's Google, YouTube, paying 25 to settle this lawsuit. This was over something they did consistent with their practices, which was after a violent insurrection. They suspended an account associated with that effort. Happened to be Donald Trump's account. Doesn't mean you go to jail. But they have these policies. They applied it, now they're backtracking on that. And then you look at what Trump is doing, his sort of enemies list in the media, trying to censor Kimmel, going after other individuals and the lawsuits where it is working in court. Kimmel's one where you see they went from suspended to reinstated. How do you view all of this, given your experience?

[Don Lemon]

Well, everybody has a terms of service. That's what they call it.

[Ari Melber]

Right.

[Don Lemon]

When you sign up for these sites, even, even you working here, you have.

[Ari Melber]

A term of service, standards and practices.

[Don Lemon]

You have the standards and practices. You have to conduct yourself in a certain way. These platforms are privately owned platforms and they can say this is how you to conduct yourself. And if you don't, we can kick you off. And Donald Trump didn't conduct himself properly. Donald Trump inspired an insurrection. Donald Trump gave misinformation. Inspiring an insurrection, giving misinformation, you know, saying horrible racist things. All of those things are evidence and that can be used to kick someone, suspend them or get them permanently barred from a platform. And so Donald Trump did all of that. The only reason I believe that these folks are caving is because they don't want their business this interfered with in Washington. They want their mergers and acquisitions.

[Ari Melber]

You think they did follow their terms fairly and a. Anyone forget ideology? Someone who happens to identify As a Democrat who did those violations would also be booted. And you're saying it's just corruption from the administration?

[Don Lemon]

It is, yes.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

I mean, Look, I'm on YouTube. I have to conduct myself a certain way. I can't say the R word. I have to say grape sometimes so that the algorithm, the AI doesn't pick it up. Up and think that I'm, you know, potentially doing something. Potentially doing something. You have to be very careful on some of these things. You can't say. You have to say unalived or any of those things because the. The AI is so sensitive that they have AI monitoring it to make sure that you're not promoting anything that's violent.

[Ari Melber]

And they would say they're erring on the side of trying to do something good. For example, if. If somebody is worried about influencing people who might take their own life.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

They don't want that video up for days. They want to stop it before it starts.

[Don Lemon]

All right. As it. As it relates to free speech country, the one thing is that if it promotes violence in any way, then it's not considered free speech.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Someone inspiring an insurrection. Would that a violent takeover of the Capitol, trying to change the outcome of an election, spreading human, you know, excretions on the walls of the Capitol, stealing things out of lawmakers offices, threatening to hang the vice president.

[Paul Rakoff]

President.

[Don Lemon]

That is inspiring or inciting violence. So, yeah, I think they were well within their terms of service.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And I don't. And I don't know why. I guess I do know why is that YouTube is a business. It's not, you know, under the FCC's.

[Ari Melber]

You know, it's under that purview. But there's a heck of a lot of other pressure.

[Don Lemon]

There's a lot of other business.

[Ari Melber]

You're gonna hang with me, I guess. When we come back, more Don Lemon. Don Lemon. Two segments. Not one, but two. Great to have you back here.

[Don Lemon]

And the third one is.

[Ari Melber]

The third one is the online extra.

[Don Lemon]

Aren't I co anchoring this?

[Ari Melber]

Do you want to go anchor? Because, you know, we got plenty of days to.

[Don Lemon]

You should come co anchor my show with me. Would you do it?

[Ari Melber]

I would consider it. You should. I'd consider it. All right, let me show you.

[Don Lemon]

Friends are on. Steph rule comes up every once in a while.

[Ari Melber]

Let me show you. We love. We love when we have and. And we've done this with other folks, too. Let's take a step back. Let's look at how far you've come in the old days.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my God.

[Ari Melber]

Early dawn. Oh, Lord.

[Alex Witt]

Welcome back to America's news channel, msnbc. I'm Alex Whit and I'm joined this morning by Don Lemon. With Don Lemon.

[Toby Stewart]

Yeah.

[Alex Witt]

He's sitting in for Rick, who is off doing some duty at graduation. Speaking.

[Toby Stewart]

Absolutely.

[Alex Witt]

Good job for him today.

[Don Lemon]

For him or for me?

[Ari Melber]

Both of you.

[Don Lemon]

Some breaking news that we want to tell you about this morning. A Senate subcommittee has decided to subpoena Bush and Cheney's staff in the Enron investigation.

[Ari Melber]

Oh, I was so young.

[Don Lemon]

Do you know when that was?

[Ari Melber]

About 02, I think that was.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, two. But I didn't even work here. I was. I worked at NBC 10 in. In Philadelphia.

[Ari Melber]

Local. Local.

[Don Lemon]

But it was an owned and operated station, so they would.

[Ari Melber]

So you got a stint on America's news channel there.

[Don Lemon]

I would come in and do the news cut ins or co anchor with Alex Wagner.

[Bill Kristol]

Right.

[Ari Melber]

Alex Witt.

[Don Lemon]

Alex Witt. Alex Witt. Alex Witt.

[Ari Melber]

The. So what did you learn then? That you still apply and what do you do differently?

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I would have.

[Ari Melber]

Wow.

[Don Lemon]

You know, back then I was just. I was a newbie. What would I apply?

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. What are you. Like. Like, for example, you were there talking about subcommittee. You're doing the detail. What do you still apply when you look at how to understand the world? And what do you do differently?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I just try to. I just try to be myself and be authentic. And I don't worry about being perfect and I don't worry about making mistakes. Mistakes. Because that's all part of life. I think perfection is boring. I learned that very early on. One of my mentors told me that was actually the news director that I've worked with there in. In Philadelphia told me, perfection is boring. Just be yourself. People like you have a great personality. You're very smart. And he also said that you have. And even my. I've heard this from two bosses. Steve Schwade was one who taught me that. The other one was Jeff Zucker. He said, you have an impeccable editorial comp. Out of any anchor or any producer that I've met, you know where the story is and how to get to the story. And that's just because I like talking to people. So I feel I'm better with people. Like I'm better with you. I can be by myself. I can talk to a wall, but I like bouncing off of people and.

[Ari Melber]

And developing how to show people your real.

[Don Lemon]

How to show people my real self. So that's what those things I've Kept with.

[Ari Melber]

Well, you know what?

[Don Lemon]

Change.

[Ari Melber]

You know what Lil Wayne said.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, my God, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Let me give it you to. To you.

[Don Lemon]

Yes, sir, go ahead.

[Ari Melber]

I see you in your fake vibe, your snake skin.

[Don Lemon]

Right.

[Ari Melber]

I'd rather be myself than your fake twin.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. Are you my fake twin?

[Ari Melber]

Well, I'm not addressing you. He was addressing.

[Don Lemon]

I know.

[Ari Melber]

You're all these people trying to be like someone else. And you're saying your. Your edge was getting comfortable being yourself because right now we. We get more your personality than. Of course we did when you were in an audition then.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, well, I think you got a lot of personality. I mean, that was an audition. That was. That was really young then. Did you see that? That suit was fly, though.

[Ari Melber]

You look.

[Don Lemon]

I always knew how to dress, but I like being myself. I used to work in this. It's interesting being in this building because I used to work in this building.

[Ari Melber]

Sure.

[Don Lemon]

I was a correspondent in this building. I used to. My favorite thing about being in this building.

[Ari Melber]

Look at that. Look at all the hair I had.

[Don Lemon]

And how skinny I was. My favorite thing about being in this building was getting to watch the SNL rehearsals on Friday night. Sure, yeah. But.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, there's a lot happening and you learn a lot from the people been. Who've been doing the work. I'm out of time, but that's.

[Don Lemon]

I know you are, but that's the advice that I always give to people when they ask me, just be yourself. Be authentic, and that will get you, you and wheezy.

[Ari Melber]

I'm just being myself. Don Lemon, the book I once was lost, one of several. Look it up now. When we come back, why is the American Dream on the ropes? The answer may surprise you. A new author joins me. Is that me? If you step back from current debates, the clashes over culture, justice, or taxes, there is an enduring framework that's shared across the spectrum. The idea that in the US Education, hard work, building your skills can lead to a better life. The belief that merit, which differs from other societies which might be focused on class or family connections, this American dream you've heard of. Of. Has been echoing across ideology and culture. However you're born doesn't determine how it ends. That if you work hard, you play by the rules, you apply yourself, you can reach your potential, you can flourish. That's the American idea.

[Lacey Mosley]

I have the best advice for women in business. Get your up and work. It seems like nobody wants to work these days.

[Ari Melber]

We didn't make excuses. We believed in the American dream and in the values of family and Hard work. In the United States of America, we get ahead and succeed by merit and merit alone. Merit over class is appealing. The US is certainly a better place for it than, say, a dictatorship like North Korea. But there are signs that merit's not the glide path that some claim. Consider in the current era, fewer young people are able to even make more than their parents did, and that's a decline. Polling shows the share of Americans who believe they can improve their standard of living has dropped to a record. Low inequality and student debt make it harder to get education and merit for all kinds of reasons. And so for today's young Americans, they doubt the American dream is available to them. Or as David Bowie put it, young American, do you remember the bills you have to pay? Or even yesterday, new studies find that merit in school and boost all job applicants with findings that employers still favor name and the implied race of an applicant over merit. And that's in resumes that have identical qualifications. Part of this may reflect how we perceive things. Research shows our sense of merit is distorted by the constant focus on status and prestige. Professor Toby Stewart finding that our evaluations of how good we think something is depend not on its qualities or merit, but on the prestige that we most associate with it. Take sports, which is supposed to be about measured competition. Kobe Bryant was past his prime in the last year he was playing, but he still made that year's All Star team. Perhaps on the prestige or career loyalty over his numbers that year. It's said that it shocked even the great Kobe himself. So as we take that all in, the recently quoted Professor Toby Stewart joins us now. The author of the new book Anointed the Extraordinary Effects of Social Status in a Winner Take Most World. Welcome.

[Toby Stewart]

Thanks so much, Hari.

[Ari Melber]

Thrilled to be here. What did you find about merit and why some of that isn't shaking out and working for everyone?

[Toby Stewart]

I'll get there in just a second, but I'm still hung up on David Bowie. Thank you for that. You just. You took me right back to my college, remember? It's a great song and it's an amazing song.

[Ari Melber]

Applies for young Americans today.

[Toby Stewart]

Indeed it does. And I should probably say before I jump into it, that here I am talking about social status, and I just want to be very clear that I was told not to wear a suit or tie for this, for this meeting. Okay, so it was no disrespect intended, but onto the waiter issue. I mean, the narrative itself is completely fine. I mean, it is a part of American history and it has been the narrative in this country for a long, long, long time. I mean, the issue is how empirically accurate it is and the extent to which we have social mobility in the country. And those numbers don't look great. So while the book isn't about books about social status and the, the economy of status, that kind of lies behind how the world works. Very broad, but a lot of it does touch on issues around merit and, and, and equity in our, in our current system. And, and it's really, it's, it's really the evidence kind of stacks up as it doesn't look amazing. So it isn't that hard work doesn't matter. It absolutely does. But it, it isn't most of the story.

[Ari Melber]

It's not most. And that means you find that whether we like to admit it or not, not, we're obsessed with a type of status and prestige. And we what, as humans, we measure it by who you're standing next to.

[Toby Stewart]

I mean, judge a man by the friend by his friends. Right? So that actually is literally, that old ad adage is literally about judge somebody by. On the basis of who they're standing next to. And indeed that is one dimension of status, which is it moves from, from, from people and from institutions to between people and between institutions and people. So you know, like you go to the, we're in midtown Manhattan and you go to the hot restaurant and the hot restaura, like does a hot restaurant. Is it hot because the right people are there?

[Ari Melber]

Is it good or because of the status?

[Toby Stewart]

Right? I mean, is it hot because the right people are there? Are the right people there because it's hot? You know, it's a circular kind of status rubbing off on, on one another. And that's part of how the, the, the system works. I mean, Witchiana's fine if merit and status are the same thing, but the book is about how well they ain't supposed to be.

[Ari Melber]

Let me show you what a lot of more liberal Democrats have been saying. Because somewhat related, they say things are not on the level. They don't work, especially for younger people. We will not accept a society of massive economic inequalities. These ideas of taxing the 1% and the most profitable corporations to fund a more affordable life for all are things that actually have quite a bit of support.

[Alex Witt]

Those with the most economic, political and technological power destroy the public good to.

[Lacey Mosley]

Enrich themselves while millions of Americans pay the price.

[Ari Melber]

The findings you have on status, is that part of what they call a problem?

[Toby Stewart]

Yeah, I mean the truth about status is that we believe that the status distribution and the merit distribution don't necessarily line up with one another and that they spread in very different ways.

[Ari Melber]

Say that more in English.

[Toby Stewart]

In English. There are lots of people who have really high status that, that, that by any sort of honest sense of merit didn't really earn all of their status. And that has to do with the process by which we accumulate social status.

[Ari Melber]

So I'll let you re, you know, respond. But low merit individuals that are highly prized in our society and that partly undercuts this so called American dream.

[Toby Stewart]

Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know if I. This you're going to the off diagonals. Like I've got no merit and I have high status. And we absolutely can think of cases in which that exists.

[Ari Melber]

And my friends say I'm always going off the diagonal.

[Toby Stewart]

Going off the diagonal.

[Ari Melber]

That's all my political science friends say.

[Toby Stewart]

Right, right. I mean, but, and so, so that does indeed happen. Right. I mean there's, I mean, I think, you know, I think there's, there's a line in the book that I think it was Thomas Paine. So it was a long way back. And, and the line in the book was something like if Homer' wrote a novel, I'm not really sure I would want to read it.

[Ari Melber]

Right, right.

[Toby Stewart]

And that's, that's where you get into the off diagonals. Right.

[Ari Melber]

Where I'll let you continue. But we'll put up the dynasties that we've had. I got 30 seconds. You can finish your, your thought. But a lot of Americans are facing this while we're told no, we're not about connections.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Toby Stewart]

So I mean, you could look at the dynasties. But let me, let me just generally, let me make that much more general, which is that just think about the zip code you're born in. There's a great deal of evidence that the zip code that you're born in, and this goes to the initial sort of clip where we let off the zip code that you're born in has a lot of explanatory power on the one that you pass in. Right. So like the amount of, in a completely merit based society, it probably doesn't matter that much which zip code you're born in. Two, it turns out empirically that isn't very true.

[Ari Melber]

Right. And so your work shows us that that may be misleading. And the first step is addressing these status and political fictions if we care about fixing them. In other words, if we recognize we have a bigger merit problem than we say I'm out of time. But I want to tell people because it's interesting work. The book is anointed. You can find it wherever books are sold.

[Lacey Mosley]

What's poppin listeners? I'm Lacy Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake hair? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

[Toby Stewart]

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[Don Lemon]

This.

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