Trump Tests Law by Claiming $1B+ for Convicts

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump Tests Law by Claiming $1B+ for Convicts
Date: May 21, 2026
Host: Ari Melber (MS NOW)
Notable Guests: Ty Cobb (former Trump White House attorney), Harry Dunn (Capitol Police officer, Congressional candidate), Jason Johnson (MSNOW contributor), Gov. Andy Beshear (KY)

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Overview

This episode of The Beat with Ari Melber dives into the latest controversy surrounding Donald Trump's "Thug Fund"—a proposed billion-dollar-plus government payout fund for those convicted of crimes, including violent January 6th offenders. Melber examines the legal, political, and ethical dimensions of the fund, explores reactions from across the political spectrum, and features first-person perspectives from a Capitol Police officer now suing Trump. The show also covers polling data, the cultural climate around Trump, and concludes with a conversation with Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear on Democratic prospects in red states.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Thug Fund” Scandal and Congressional Pushback

[00:59–05:33]

• Ari Melber breaks the news about Trump's new DOJ initiative, which proposes taxpayer-funded payouts to convicts, potentially including violent offenders from January 6th.
• The fund is causing a deep rift among Republicans—many publicly oppose it, and attempts to corral support have failed even in closed-door Republican meetings.
• Senate Majority Leader Thune says, “not a big fan” ([03:44], Thune via Ty Cobb). Senator Tillis is more direct, calling it “stupid.”
• The fund’s rollout was rushed, lacked consultation, and the acting Attorney General, Blanche, fails to reassure lawmakers it won’t reward violent offenders.
  • Melber: “Would you be okay with people who were convicted of hurting police getting taxpayers?”
    Blanche: “Just to be clear, people that hurt police get money all the time.” ([05:51])

Key Insight:
The backlash includes not just political but legal action. A bipartisan movement is forming to ban the fund legislatively, and Democrats vow investigations if they regain the House.

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2. The Fund’s Legal and Ethical Quandaries

[05:33–15:00]

• Melber and Ty Cobb examine the legal underpinnings and moral audacity of a sitting president funnelling public money to his allies and insurrectionists.
• Melber points out that the fund violates DOJ policy by awarding claims unrelated to any lawsuit.
• Ty Cobb equates Trump’s and Blanche’s actions with kleptocracy:

  “What we're seeing is an audacity and a scale of corruption that [has] never been seen before in America, unknown to many people other than the Putins, the Idi Amins…who have looted their countries…” ([09:41], Ty Cobb)

• Emphasis on the dangerous precedent: using state power and funds to reward political violence.

Memorable Moment:
Cobb questions the seriousness and legality of the scheme, likening Blanche’s role to personal ambition and noting a possible quid pro quo ("the price of making him attorney general is $2 billion," [10:52]).

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3. Public Reaction and Cultural Backlash

[15:56–19:11]

• The episode features snippets of public outrage via social media, with citizens highlighting the corruption and fiscal irresponsibility—“1.7 billion taxpayer dollars that this man is literally trying to swindle” ([16:27], TikTok user).
• Melber and Cobb discuss the disconnect: Congress won’t act on popular policy (e.g., gun safety), but springs to action to avoid emboldening or funding those who attacked it.
• Trump’s apparent indifference to criticism and lack of accountability (“I don't know. I really don't know,” Trump on Senate control, [19:21]) frames him as detached and dismissive.

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4. Trump’s Dwindling Political Capital & Polling

[22:24–24:35]

• New polling shows Trump’s approval within the Republican Party and nationally hitting all-time lows (down 24 points among GOP, 34% overall).
• Republican insiders blame Trump for crashing their midterm prospects—Fox News’ own polls corroborate this.
• Melber: “If you find yourself debating someone who says, well, Trump has his base…the truth is, you’re not. …Trump has lost 25 points or so of his Republican support” ([22:24–23:52]).

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5. Culture, Media, and the Political Narrative

[24:50–29:15]

• Jason Johnson joins Ari Melber to discuss the political and cultural moment, including the end of Stephen Colbert’s show and censorship concerns.
• Johnson warns that, even with Trump’s plummeting popularity, Republican electioneering and gerrymandering allow them to maintain power:

  “He could drop to 10%, and it won’t change anything if every district is slice and dice…politicians are picking the voters instead of voters rejecting the politicians.” ([25:23], Jason Johnson)

• The discussion underscores the tension between public demand and entrenched political systems.

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6. The Lawsuit Against Trump: Officer Harry Dunn’s Perspective

[33:07–39:04]

• First-hand account from Harry Dunn, former Capitol Police officer and current Congressional candidate, who is suing Trump over the Thug Fund.
• Dunn equates the fund to “a retainer fee” for future violence (“the payments…serve as a reward and also an incentive to say, ‘Donald Trump has our back’” [35:45]).
• He describes enduring trauma, ongoing threats, and the exhaustion of fighting for accountability five-and-a-half years after the insurrection.
• On discouragement and struggle:

  “I don’t know if it [will be okay], but I do know that if we don't stand up and we don't try to fight back, what's the alternative? We lay down and accept it? No. That's what they want us to do.” ([39:04], Harry Dunn)

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7. Looking Forward: Democrats’ Prospects & Red-State Strategy

[40:00–43:11]

• Conversation with Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, a Democratic star who has won in an overwhelmingly red state.
• Beshear promotes empathy (“Most underrated political value right now: empathy,” [42:28]) and inclusivity, recognizing the feelings of Trump voters while judging Trump on his decisions.
• On Democratic prospects:

  “If the midterms were held today, who do you think would win?”
  “Democrats, win the House, though I don't know by how much. Given this crazy redistricting we are seeing, it's a problem.” ([41:45–41:54])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ari Melber:
  “This is not about an underlying lawsuit…This is about funding people who attacked police in Congress. Because Donald Trump…has shown through action…that that’s his team: the anti-America team, the anti-Democracy team, the anti-Congress team.” ([07:37])

• Ty Cobb:
  “What we're seeing is an audacity and a scale of corruption that never [has] been seen before in America…that’s what's going on now between Trump and Blanche.” ([09:41])

• Unnamed DOJ Official (Blanche):
  “Just to be clear, people that hurt police get money all the time.” ([05:51])

• Harry Dunn:
  “It just as recent as today. We just continually receive these threats and this hate, all starting by the former president…they're providing comfort and aid to insurrectionists.” ([38:44])

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

• [00:59] — Ari Melber opens on the Thug Fund and political backlash
• [03:41] — Ty Cobb & Republican leadership reactions
• [05:33] — DOJ Official (Blanche): Open to paying violent offenders
• [09:41] — Ty Cobb on the scale of Trump administration corruption
• [22:24] — Trump’s declining poll numbers reported
• [25:23] — Jason Johnson on structural GOP power
• [33:07] — Harry Dunn recounts suit against Trump
• [39:04] — Harry Dunn’s message on resilience
• [41:29] — Andy Beshear on Democrats’ prospects in red states

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Tone and Style

Melber’s tone is analytical, urgent, and sometimes incredulous (“Just an embarrassing, ridiculous anti police sentiment…”). Guest contributions are candid and sometimes caustically critical, particularly Ty Cobb on Republican ambition and Harry Dunn on the human toll of political violence. The show weaves hard political analysis with sharp cultural commentary and firsthand testimony for an engaging, multifaceted look at the ongoing Trump saga and its impact.

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Summary Takeaways

• The Thug Fund is facing intense bipartisan scrutiny, legal challenges, and public outrage.
• Trump and allies pursue legally dubious policies, test boundaries of accountability, and stoke political and cultural divisions.
• GOP opposition to Trump is more pronounced, driven by both self-interest and concerns over process, spending, and public perception.
• Grassroots backlash and cultural pushback amplify the political consequences of overreach.
• Firsthand accounts (Harry Dunn) underscore the ongoing dangers to democracy and law enforcement.
• Democrats see opportunity by elevating leaders with cross-partisan appeal, like Andy Beshear, and focusing on empathy and practical governance.

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This episode encapsulates a moment of converging legal, political, and cultural resistance to Trump’s attempts to bend the rule of law, with urgent testimony and data suggesting a shifting tide—at least among the political class and elements of Trump’s traditional base.

Transcript

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[Chris Hayes]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? The next episode of our special miniseries, the AI Endgame. I'm speaking with UC Berkeley professor of psychology Alison Gopnik.

[Alison Gopnik]

I think people are working on AI models that are more like children, but the models that everyone's paying attention to that get called artificial intelligence. The chatgpts, the clauds, they're not doing that. What they're doing is taking all of the material that human beings have already learned and then they use these statistical methods to try to organize and summarize and agglomerate that information.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame? Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melbourne. We begin with some real developments in Congress that show there are still limits and rules, that facts and exposure matter. The Thug Fund we've been reporting on is not only likely unconstitutional and illegal, it is not only the most anti police, soft on crime initiative we've ever seen come out of any modern DOJ under Trump's tutelage. It also now, partly for those reasons, is causing a giant rift among Republicans, one that they can't hide and that spilled into public view late today. The dog, the doj, I should say, has of course failed to find any rational way to defend or explain the fund, which means even Republicans who go along with so much of what Donald Trump wants are balking today. They could not get lawmakers on board with the Thug Fund, which would go to thugs and other people convicted of crimes, potentially January 6th violent offenders. The acting AG for Trump didn't rule that out. And Blanche today tried to hold a meeting that was described as very contentious. This was just with Republicans. So you've got Trump, Republicans and Trump's Republican acting ag, and yet he couldn't find a good audience there, reportedly struggling to address their concerns. One source saying he just wasn't persuasive to the room and that meant something real then happened. Senators abandoned any plans to go forward with something that was supposed to help Trump today, an immigration vote. The Times reports How just that delay shows the toxic dynamic between the White House and the Republican Congress as they head into the midterms. This is the first step in what could be a road to another public embarrassment and rejection for Donald Trump. Politically, that'd be bad for Trump, just like when Republicans found that they were gonna overthrow and revolt against him on Epstein. Substantively, it would be good for democracy and the rule of law if this likely illegal plan was stopped in its tracks. Indeed, Andrew Weissman was telling us just last night on this program that while there are many ways to challenge this in court, everybody knows that takes a long time. And a quicker way to challenge it would be to have Congress step up and say the obvious. They didn't appropriate this. They wouldn't. And go on record against, meaning use the legal powers they have to ban under law, taking taxpayer dollars and handing it out to this secret thug fund. Republicans, some of them have been speaking out. I think it's stupid on stilts. Someone who assaulted a police officer admitted their guilt, and now we're going to pay them for that. I don't think it's an appropriate use of money. What are your thoughts about this representation

[Andy Beshear]

fund from the president that is going to.

[Ty Cobb]

Not a big fan.

[Ari Melber]

Republicans stepping up and not just a few random ones. That was the Senate Majority leader saying, not a big fan. If you follow this program. I told you a couple days ago, when Thune says something like that, it opens up space oxygen for others to speak up. And that's part of how pushback works. Because he says he's not a fan. That wasn't the strongest way to put it. Then others say this is stupid. Like, you heard Tillis. There other Republicans saying they'll kill it. And eventually Thune and others can say back to the White House, hey, you unveiled this without any prep. You didn't consult us. You floated it in the worst possible way. You admitted under the acting AG it might go to violent criminals who attacked Congress, where of course, they work. And now we have a revolt that is too big, too many people oppose it. And that allows him to sort of tell Trump that it's going to be doa. There's a bipartisan effort underway to kill the fund entirely. They're drafting legislation. All of this is fast moving. House Democrats say they will be investigating any effort to dole out these funds if they take back the House in these midterms. But the actual process is going forward. As of this moment, the fund hasn't handed out money that we know of. But allies of Trump are filing claims. And it's kind of a who's who of people that American taxpayers don't want to give their money to for no reason. People like George Santos, the lying Republican, Rod Blagojevich, a Democrat who was later embraced by Trump and some of those convicted Jan 6 attackers. As mentioned, payouts could include others, including those politically allied with the administration. Blanche, as I said, will not rule out paying violent convicts. Here was one exchange.

[Unnamed DOJ Official (Mr. Blanche)]

The claimant would have to say, I assaulted a cop and I want money. So whether the commissioners will give that person money, that claimant, it's up to them. But that's one of the factors they have to consider.

[Ari Melber]

Would you be okay with people who were convicted of hurting police getting taxpayers?

[Unnamed DOJ Official (Mr. Blanche)]

Just to be clear, people that hurt police get money all the time.

[Ari Melber]

Just an embarrassing, ridiculous anti police sentiment from the acting attorney general. Mr. Blanche is unable to say that the DOJ he leads won't rule out giving your money to people who attacked police and were convicted of it, taking your money, which they don't really have a basis for, and giving that over to people who attack police. And the reason, because Trump settled a lawsuit with himself, none of it adds up. Mr. Blanche, like other people who've tried to impress Donald Trump, may find that his little bit here doesn't work out for him, even by the narrow standards of his career, because he's now on record as being anti police, which frankly disqualifies him from the job he holds and any future job in government, law enforcement, prosecution, or government service. Remember, it's police and federal agents who are basically federal police that work alongside the doj, and he's selling them all out and he's opening up the opportunity to fund violent attacks against them. So he's not gonna have good working relations with any of them that find out about this. And yet in the end, if the fund is killed within the next few weeks, he'll have debased himself in that way in public and gotten what for it. They won't even have a fund to hand out. So if it reminds you of other people, Michael Cohen and others who've worked for Trump, only to find that the loyalty is one way, well, we're watching that in real time. Blanche is trying to be politically loyal to Trump over his oath to the Constitution and to supporting the police and the federal agents that protect him and work alongside doj. One Times writer says this is a mountain of corruption that the US Under Trump has now reached a place we've never been before. Another columnist likens this to the mob boss's petty theft, given that the sums may not actually matter that much to Trump. But as we've covered, what he wants is to rebuild an insurrection force from January 6th last time with pardons, legal protections, blanket future pardons, and money for his shock troops should he want to call on them. The Times also notes the fund violates a policy directive issued by this very administration last year that bars payments to groups not involved in an underlying lawsuit. If you've watched our coverage, I will repeat what I've said before. This is not about an underlying lawsuit. It's not about the irs. It's not about any of the COVID stories, distraction, propaganda, language and routine lies that come out of Donald Trump's operation and now include the acting attorney general. This is about funding people who attacked police in Congress. Because Donald Trump, having once claimed that he opposed that and they would actually pay for it, he claimed, actually has shown through action, legal and now financial, that that's his team, the anti America team, the anti Democracy team, the anti Congress team. That's his team. I'm joined now by Ty Cobb, former White House attorney during the first Trump administration in Tai. I mentioned what Trump claimed on January 7 because there was so much pressure at the time and he was facing an impeachment that might have resulted in disqualifying him from running again and potential indictment as well. I want to show the violence and what he said.

[Tucker Carlson]

Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem. To those who engage in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law, you will pay.

[Ari Melber]

How does that stack up to what he's doing now?

[Ty Cobb]

Well, I think he's changed his tune and saying, you know, to those who engaged in lawlessness and violence, welcome to the slush fund. Each of you should get $2 million or more, as Terrio has indicated he's going to seek. So it's, it's, that was at a time, remember, when even Mitch McConnell and Nancy Mace were raising objections to the failure to allow the peaceful transfer of government and the obvious insurrection that was underway. He had to quell those passions in an effort to avoid impeachment. And sadly now what we're seeing is an audacity and a scale of corruption that never been seen before in Americ, unknown to many people other than the Putin's IDI Amin and others of the world who have looted their countries for their own personal benefit. And that's what's going, going on now between Trump and Blanche.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And your view of the way the acting Attorney General Blanche is, is leading this criminal. Hmm.

[Ty Cobb]

Because, well, it's, it's, it's, it's totally lawless. You know, he's no, he's no idiot. I mean, and Blanche doesn't have the excuse of having been an ideologue like Bondi or Stephen Miller or others. Blanche was once a decent lawyer. This is all basically just personal ambition, enriching himself and trying to empower himself. And he found out, I think, that Trump believes the price of making him attorney general is $2 billion and he readily handed it out to him.

[Ari Melber]

Hmm. The reporting we have out of the off Capitol Hill today does show more opposition to this than usual than some other Trump efforts, including the so called enemies list which targeted all these people. And so given that you've been in that White House role as a lawyer where you keep an eye on the Congress and other pushback, how do you think that plays? Do you think it's hit the type of pitch yet where the practical people at the White House and DOJ say, oh, we might actually lose this thing? Or what's your view of it?

[Ty Cobb]

Well, I think the mere fact that Blanche canceled his trip to Minnesota to rush up to the Hill and expanded the list of potential claimants under this slush fund to include Republican senators whose phone records, not actual conversations, not anything private or otherwise, not appropriately subpoenaed, was subpoenaed during the 16 investigation to determine merely to whom Trump and Meadows were speaking as the insurrection was well underway. That now that now they're going to be allowed to dip into the fund along with the proud boys and, you know, the many other right wing and dangerous people that Trump wants to take care of to make sure that they'll always be there for him, particularly on Election Day in November.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And we reported this week that the wider process is Trump trying to rebuild and extend some of the failed efforts from the original insurrection. He ran into pushback, famously from his vice president, the ag and now, as we've just discussed, he's got different people in those roles. I want to contrast on at least the issue of the facts of the election, Bill Barr, to the sycophants surrounding him today. This is what we had from Barr before.

[Jason Johnson]

I repeatedly told the President in no

[Ari Melber]

uncertain terms that I did not see evidence of fraud. I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the President was bullshit.

[Unnamed DOJ Official (Mr. Blanche)]

Today, a grand jury sitting in the Eastern District of North Carolina returned an indictment against James Comey on two counts. I love working for President Trump. I love you, sir.

[Ari Melber]

If there is a Republican loss in 28, say Vance or someone allied with Trump and Trump is demanding Blanche do the things that Barr wouldn't, how concerned should we be that he would go further? And what, as a society, do we do about that?

[Ty Cobb]

If the attorney general is going to give away $2 billion worth of taxpayer money, I think we should be very concerned. There's no bar to what he will stoop to in service of the president to whom he has surrendered his fealty, unlike other attorney generals whose fealty was always to the Constitution.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, right. And that sort of takes it forward into everyone understanding what we're dealing with. In the old days, the media gives some deference to what comes out of the doj. The Wall street business elites who matter say, oh, well, if the DOJ said this, it means that. And now that seems upside down. Ty, you've agreed to stay. We've got our shortest break. We're back with more in 90 seconds.

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[Alison Gopnik]

Voters weighed in. Donald Trump's dismissal of their concerns has been weighing on his political standing.

[MSNow Announcer]

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[Ty Cobb]

there's no architectural plans. There is no environmentals.

[Ari Melber]

There's no engineering.

[Ty Cobb]

There's no sense of when we ask how did it happen to cost exactly a billion?

[Ari Melber]

I don't support taxpayer money going to it.

[Ty Cobb]

It could cost a lot less. It could cost a lot more. I just don't get it.

[Ari Melber]

The sound you hear is a Republican pushing back on the panoply of Trump plots and efforts to spend money. We're back with White House veteran Ty Cobb. Ty, as you know, nowadays people sound off in all sorts of different way. One interesting thing with TikTok is people are just venting. It's not like an op ed. It went through an editor and five drafts. People are just sounding off. And more and more Americans have heard about and seem concerned with the various corruption and spending. Take a look.

[Alison Gopnik]

1.7 billion taxpayer dollars that this man

[Ty Cobb]

is literally trying to swindle.

[Jason Johnson]

The way he did it is even

[Ari Melber]

more corrupt than the fund Itself the blatant end run around the Constitution. This is going on while they started

[Alison Gopnik]

an endless war in Iran, while they

[Ari Melber]

can't supply health care, but they have money to line this reflecting pool.

[Alison Gopnik]

He's so focused on the ballroom, maybe he should have just gone to interior design school.

[Ari Melber]

Oh, what a big boy playing with his toys. Donald Trump's arch that he's trying to put in DC is a 250 foot

[Chris Hayes]

middle finger to veterans.

[Ari Melber]

Your view of sort of where the public outrage fits into what is a lot of corruption and spending problems, it's shocking.

[Ty Cobb]

I mean, we've never in our lifetimes or in the history of the Republic seen a level of corruption at this audacious scale. The people that are now paying attention, I think that's great. I hope you know, he's finally crossed a line that even Congress may, may push back on and more Republicans will find a spine or some character and do what they swore to do when they took their oaths, but I don't think we can count on that. Keep in mind, after the 16 insurrection, Republicans were initially upset, but they got over that, embraced TRUMP and sadly, 77 million Americans notwithstanding, Trump's attempted seditious, treasonous exercise voted him back into office. So I don't think anybody should be surprised that a convicted criminal of his ilk and lack of character, his malignant narcissism and dementia is running amok with no impulse control and many people who are ambitious trying to serve him. I think it's good that people are starting to pay attention. Everybody should pay attention. The Republic is in severe danger and all our taxpayer money is at risk. If he can take $2 billion under this pretext and he can take as much as he wants and he will.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, right. And there's different ways to mount these arguments. And when people get exhausted or cynical, they say, well, what does it even matter? But the fact that this fund is vulnerable to so many different points, that it's anti police, that it's dangerous to democracy, that it undercuts the congressional funding prerogative, which some Republicans care about for narrower reasons, that seems to have added, you know, added weight on the boat, if you will. And Trump, you mentioned his, his mental state. I mean, here he in the Oval, he's not exactly pushing back on whether he controls Republicans. There was this exchange,

[Jason Johnson]

there is some

[Ty Cobb]

backlash among Senate Republicans to some of the other priorities, the ballroom and that anti weaponization fund. Are you losing control of the Senate, Senate Republicans?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know. I really don't know,

[Ari Melber]

he doesn't know. And at times it seems like he doesn't care. The war is a very serious matter. The fund is something you might just evaporate under pressure. But what they have in common was no actual meaningful effort to present even to his own party, let alone his constitutional obligations to explain it to the public in advance. He doesn't seem to care about that or feel any compunction at Ty, Trump

[Ty Cobb]

doesn't believe that he's accountable to anybody. He believes he can do anything he wants and he does as the both the war, contrary to the advice of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and this completely lawless exercise. You know, Blanche, Blanche, you know, can't avoid criticism here either because he violated virtually every ethical rule under Rule 1 of the Rules of professional conduct. He has no business doing this. And doing this in a circumstance where his former client is the alleged adversary in a case represent where he's representing the Justice Department. Trump, Trump will, will find people to do whatever he wants. And as we know from his termination of Bondi, as we know from his attacks on Senator Cassidy, you know, he doesn't really care who he leaves in his wake and, and temporary loyalists unless they can get the job done. They're going to be, they're going to be trash just like Bondi was.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. This is a time where we need clarity and we need a type of strength, fortitude. Ty, you bring that here. And I appreciate you making time for us on the Beat, sir.

[Ty Cobb]

Thank you, Ari. Always good to be with you.

[Ari Melber]

Yes, thank you very much. White House veteran Ty Cobb has spending time with us. I want to tell folks, if you're wondering, wait, what do the police think about what is obviously this anti police effort? Well, we have a January 6th police officer who is suing Trump joining me tonight on the Beat. We think it's important to make time for that and I hope you stay with us for that. As for Democrats seeking ways to do better in red states, how about hearing from one who is leading Mitch McConnell's Red State and doing it well? We have that story coming up. And the rejection that Trump is seeing has broadened across the culture, including something new that actually unites Bruce Springsteen and Tucker Carlson.

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[Alison Gopnik]

Voters weighed in. Donald Trump's dismissal of their concerns has been weighing on his political standing.

[MSNow Announcer]

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[Ari Melber]

Donald Trump's polling is crashing. He's approaching his lame duck era and he recently complicated his party's effort to hold on to the Senate by picking candidates that Republicans uniformly think are more likely to lose. Now we have polling showing that the broad base of the party, Republican voters, are more skeptical. Senators calling off votes today after Republicans balked at the Thug fund. We reported on toxic dynamic and this polling is being called humiliating. Fox News own polls show that Trump's approval within his party is crashing. You can see his net approval among Republican voters in the second term hitting a new low that's actually down 24 points from its peak. So this image right here, you should keep in mind if you find yourself debating someone who says, well, Trump has his base or one of your friends who's a Republican soft MAGA voter saying, well, we're all standing with him. The truth is you're not separate from what independents and liberals and Democrats are doing. Trump has lost 25 points or so of his Republican support broaden out to the whole country. He's at a 34% second term low. A top Republican says the GOP's midterm chances are crashing because of the low polling, that it's a Trump problem even more than a party problem. The backlash runs the gamut from Tucker Carlson to Bruce Springsteen.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're the first guy in America who's lost his show because we got a president who can't take a joke. But Stephen, these are small minded people. They got no idea what the freedoms of this beautiful country are supposed to be about.

[Jason Johnson]

Then of course there's the war, which his sons are profiting from bigly and maybe even another war. Trump is also considering taking military action against Cuba. And we're back to bullying Greenland again. Why not not let's threaten everybody while we're at it?

[Chris Hayes]

35% support from Americans. The people he pledged to represent to fight for the last year has not made America great again. The last year has diminished American power.

[Ari Melber]

Hear the voice of the anti Trump movement narrated by Tucker Carlson himself. A sign of the new times. We're joined by Ms. Now political contributor and professor Jason Johnson. Welcome.

[Jason Johnson]

Good to see you, Ari. Interesting times, interesting time, interesting times.

[Ari Melber]

There are some people who've always opposed Donald Trump and sometimes they're sort of repetitive. They're saying, I can't believe not everyone sees it the way they see it now, a lot of people do see it the way they see it. And human beings use narratives. People lean on what we remember from last year. Even folks who follow politics. Jason, talk about Trump's resilient MAGA base. Doesn't seem true anymore, you know, or

[Jason Johnson]

this is not the first, fifth or a thousandth time that I have disagreed with Karl Rove, anything he's written or said. But at the end of the day, we talk about this a lot on the show, right? 48 laws of power. What's rule number 30 plan till the end? The Republicans knew last year with the big beautiful bill that they were doing unpopular policy. They knew last year that the attempts at Greenland weren't going to make people happy. So what have they been doing? They've been rigging the field. All of these different states that are doing this redistricting now are to buffer them from the consequences of all of these upset MAGA voters. So no matter how unpopular Trump gets, if you rig the game, you're still going to end up resisting the frustration of the voters fall. And that's my largest concern. He could drop to 10% and it won't change anything if every district is slice and dice. So the politicians are picking the voters instead of voters rejecting the politicians.

[Ari Melber]

And I mentioned the wider culture because Springsteen to Tucker again, it just gives you that mood. Colbert is leaving. His actual final show is tonight. And like the backlash to Trump's effort to censor Kimmel, it's really drawn a lot of attention. Corporations own different airwaves. They can decide who to put on. You know, I'm not saying it's some illegal breach. It seems that CBS decided to do this over time. They still let him finish out this term. And yet in the climate, it seems to have really backfired in a sense that we've seen such a long celebration not only of Colbert, oh, you like him, you think he's funny. But of speaking truth to power, of taking risks of a time where there's been an accounting and maybe future historians will really watch who stood up and used whatever platform they had as best they could and who folded like some of these elites. And so with that as an introduction as Colbert takes a bow, here's some more of that going into tonight.

[Chris Hayes]

No one knows what Donald Trump is thinking, not even Donald Trump. If he knew what he was thinking, he might let it slip. That's why he keeps his mind perfectly blank. Like nature's most cunning opponent, the goldfish Trump prepped for his enormously consequential State visit by staying up late on social media, gunking up the Internet tubes with a waterfall of paranoid madness. My God, when does this man sleep? Oh, right, right, I forgot.

[Harry Dunn]

There you go.

[Ari Melber]

Gotta get so your, your thoughts on both Colbert as, as he ends this run tonight, but that wider both political and somewhat nonpartisan reaction of people saying no. They don't really want politicians trying to pick what we hear, see, or what's on air.

[Jason Johnson]

The explosion that you've seen of not just love for Stephen Colbert, but appreciation for what he's saying. This has been building for a while, right? This is essentially by allowing Colbert to finish out his show. This is giving Derek Jeter his last year, Aaron Rodgers his last year. It's the victory tour where he gets to say whatever he wants. He gets to throw chairs off the top of the building like he did last week with David Letterman. But it's also a reminder of the fact, and you can see it on the ratings. This is how people feel, right? You can shut him down, you can take him off television, but then it's just gonna go to TikTok and then it's just gonna go to Instagram. The frustration with this administration, the fact that you've got everything from Tucker Carlson. Look, broken clocks, right? Tucker Carlson finally saying, hey, maybe I participated in putting in a terrible authoritarian regime in office and I feel slightly guilty about it, even though I won't vote any differently this fall. Those are the kinds of things, the headwinds that this administration moving against. But again, I don't know that it's going to make a difference because unless there is a structural change on the ground, they may not face the consequences they should. More functional democracy, right?

[Ari Melber]

As always, you go deep. That's kind of the final point. I'll give you a thought on. Because when we talk about gun safety in this country, the fact that the Congress does not reflect the will of the people, doesn't make us then say, I guess, I guess people don't care about gun safety. No, we know that gun safety, some of the common sense rules, keep it out of the hands of criminals, keep the bigger dangerous guns out of our schools. That gets 70, 75%. And then we look at a Congress that doesn't act on it. And yet with the elections, you're pointing out that sometimes the system, the people that go, oh, well, I guess it was really close. So it wasn't close. They cracked these districts. James Clyburn's always won his seat, he's popular, but they're gonna distort and break up districts to potentially force him out of Congress. That's not the will of the people and we shouldn't misinterpret that.

[Jason Johnson]

Right. And to think about it, Ari, whether it's guns, whether it's health care, we can't get the Republican majority in Congress to address important issues. But you know what they do care about? Hey, we're not going to give reparations to white nationalists with your Thug fund right now that they care about because it affected them personally on January 6th. But the policies that they were put in office to actually administer so that people can keep their health care, so people can keep their gas prices down, those things all get put on the back burner. And that's the saddest part about all of this. And losing voices like Colbert. I know that there are other people, not just you, not just me, but there are other people out there who are going to continue to speak truth to power, even if in this particular place we might have lost this one. We're in a battle. There'll be other people out there fighting.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. No. And that's where we're in this together. And that's where it is. It's an ongoing test. It's not a one off. It's not as simple as a movie plot. And people have different roles to play in our society. But it is a test of whether you're standing up within the situation you're in or not. And I do believe there'll be an accounting. Jason, thank you, sir.

[Jason Johnson]

Thanks, Ari. Anytime.

[Ari Melber]

Absolutely. For the first time, you're going to hear new remarks from one of the hottest governors in the Democratic field, Andy Beshear. We're playing that for the first time tonight. I'll explain. But next we hear from one of the brave Capitol Police officers who defended democracy on January 6 and filed a new lawsuit. We want to give time to this. It's my guest next. Donald Trump is having a rough end of the week where we're seeing this mounting Republican effort to kill the brand new billion dollar plus fund that could go to convicts violent people who attack police. So while there is pushback in Congress, the underlying issues are huge. Whether January 6th convicts people who attacked democracy, Congress and police could get this money because some are already moving for it. Now, I mentioned Congress is one source of pushback, but two of the officers who bravely defended the Capitol that day are also using that position. Something that most Americans honored at the time. Something that we on this program say is honorable to this day, of course, and that may provide legal standing, which is important for a court process of oversight. They're suing Trump. They say it's the most brazen act of presidential corruption this century, a fund to finance the insurrectionists and groups that commit violence in his name. Harry Dunn testified before the January 6th committee. He is one of the officers taking his time and energy and even perhaps having to sort of revisit and relive something many would rather not, because he is in the position of, according to his lawyers, having legal standing to fight this thing. And remember, he gave that moving testimony confronting the violence, the horror, the racism of all those people who Trump has now freed from prison and is trying to pay.

[Harry Dunn]

One woman in a pink MAGA shirt yelled, you hear that, guys? This voted for Joe Biden. Then the crowd, perhaps around 20 people, joined in screaming, boop. No one had ever, ever called me while wearing the uniform of a Capitol Police officer.

[Ari Melber]

Harry Dunn, that former Capitol Police officer who's also now running for Congress in Maryland, joins us now. Welcome. We shouldn't even be here. You shouldn't even be having to spend your energy on this, but you choose to step up. And I think people understand the import of that these days. So I want to start on the kind of personal level and then hear, of course, about everything else you're thinking, but when did you hear about this plan? What did you think? Oh, they're going to pay these people who did all that?

[Harry Dunn]

Hey, Ari, thanks for having me, brother. Well, let's be clear. This is a campaign promise of Donald Trump's. The pardons were a campaign promise. And he also flirted with the idea about them receiving payments. I think we were aware of this. I'm not surprised by the payments. I don't think I was surprised by, well, the attempted payments. I don't believe I was surprised by it. And I think also that's why we were able to move so swiftly with this lawsuit. Within 24 hours of it being announced, we were ready to go, boots on the ground. We had our. We got our on the phone with our lawyers, and he, you know, we. Obviously, when you file lawsuits like this, you open yourself up to more criticism and, you know, all types of. And was like, no, let's go. We are on the right side of this. And, you know, we understand that it will be an uphill challenge. People have talked about standing. We do believe we have standing. You know, we do. We wouldn't have brought the case if we didn't believe that we could win it. But also on the North Star of this Is we are right. We are morally right. The American people are behind this. This is wrong. This taxpayer. This isn't like a GoFundMe account. This isn't somebody putting their cash app information out there and requesting donations. These are American taxpayers money that are rewarding and further, I think, incentivizing people that attack police officers and frankly, the American people.

[Ari Melber]

On January 6th, you've worn the uniform, you've done the job. You went through that day. Do you think if this fund is not stopped that it will make the job of being a police officer more dangerous?

[Harry Dunn]

Especially well. So I equate what Donald Trump is doing right now to somebody paying a retainer fee for a lawyer. When you have a lawyer, you pay a retainer fee for them to have them on standby when you need them. The pardons that Donald Trump gave January 20th of 2025, that was a forgiveness. Hey, we forgive you for what you did in my name, the violence. We pardoned you. Now, these payments, I believe, serve as a reward and also an incentive to say, you know what? Look what they did, and now they're getting paid for it. Donald Trump has our back. You know what, if we stand with him, not only will he forgive us and we won't get in trouble, but we could potentially be rewarded for us. And we believe that's also some of the argument that we're making that gives us than because the potential people receiving these payments put our lives in danger.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. So let's go into the case. Tell us sort of, yeah, in plain English, what are you asking the court to do? Because, you know, I cover this stuff. Sometimes the courts say, oh, we got these strict rules. We got to go exactly by the rule. And then other times you go to pandemic, you go to, obviously, the insurrection. And judges have to be practical and say, well, what does standing mean if it doesn't allow police to. At least. I'm not saying whether you win or lose the case, but at least to get into court and adjudicate this. Otherwise, this thing might not be reviewed in court at all, which seems ridiculous.

[Harry Dunn]

Doesn't it seem ridiculous when so many people. Like in a world where we're so divided about so many issues right now, I think it's clear that people are not okay with taxpayer money going to reward people who attack police officers. And I don't care if that's people that voted for Trump that still continue to support. I mean, look at the pushback we're getting from Republicans, you know, but as far as, like, the stand So a lot of people know us and know me because I talk about January 6th. I mean, think, Ari, we're almost five and a half years from January 6th, and January 6th is still front page news five and a half years later. When does that ever happen in news? You know why? Because it's so unresolved. It's so there's been no accountability for it. And American people are pissed off. A lot of times when I'm talking about January 6th, I'm having to respond to the outrageous claims and the actions that this administration and this president is doing. You know, I'm moving on, attempting to run for Congress and continue to fight for my country, for. Fight for my state, Maryland's 5th congressional district. That's what I'm trying to do right now. But I have to take time out of that to stand up in this fight, to file this lawsuit, which we think, like I said, we have a good chance of winning because of, like I said, the death threats that we get. I mean, it just as recent as today. We just continually receive these threats and this hate, all starting by the former president. And also, we bring up some 14th amendment challenges in this because we think it's illegal. They're providing comfort and aid to insurrectionists.

[Ari Melber]

So I got about 45 seconds left. Yeah. There are people who say they're discouraged. It's exhausting. How do you even keep track what works? Nothing works. And some of them, you know, respect. But some of them haven't been through what you've been through. Yeah. So I want to give you the platform tonight. What do you say to people who feel like that about fighting for democracy?

[Harry Dunn]

Yeah, well, I'm not the person to gaslight anybody. A lot of people like to use the term, hey, everything's gonna be okay. I don't know if it is, but I do know that if we don't stand up and we don't try to fight back, what's the alternative? We lay down and accept it? No, that's what they want us to do. From everything that they're doing now, stripping the Civil Rights Voting act, they're trying to do everything they can to get us to roll over. But us showing up and standing up and punching back gives us at least a fighting chance. And that's all we can ask for in this administration.

[Ari Melber]

Respect. Harry Dunn on the big topic here. Appreciate you joining the beat tonight.

[Harry Dunn]

Thanks, Ari.

[Ari Melber]

Appreciate it. Up next, we have new remarks. You're going to hear him for the first time from a Democratic governor in a red state that some people see as a potential presidential candidate. There's plenty of discussion of what the president is up to. President's Gate get plenty of attention. But Democrats are also looking even beyond the midterms, because the day after the midterms is generally the official start of the pre primary for the next presidential race. And so pre, pre, there are insiders and activists, political operatives, fundraisers who are looking at the field. And there's a little bit more buzz around what might have once been a long shot, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear as a potential kind of dark horse. There's headlines discussing his case for the presidency, why he might actually be the best chance to be D. Vance, if you think that's the matchup. Bashir may not be a household name, but he has some credentials that Democrats are excited about now winning twice in a very red state. And then, interestingly, while plenty of Democrats run blue states where you'd expect them to be popular, Bashir has the highest approval rating of any Democratic governor at a very high 65%, to say nothing of comparing it to Trump in the 30s. Now, I could tell you Bashir just appeared at a. A event hosted by Common Good, which is a New York nonpartisan group that was founded by the civic activist Patricia Duff, who you see there with Bashir. Last week, they asked me to sit down and conduct a discussion with him. And we covered a lot of ground, including how do Democrats do better in these red states? Something that he, unlike a lot of activists and pundits, has actually done. Of course, 2028 and more.

[Andy Beshear]

If you haven't met me, I'm the guy that beat Mitch McConnell's handpicked candidate by five points in 2023. And I'm the guy that beat Donald Trump's endorsed candidate by five points.

[Ari Melber]

If the midterms were held today, who do you think would win?

[Andy Beshear]

Democrats, win the House, though I don't know by how much. Given this crazy redistricting we are seeing, it's a problem. It's going to need to be resolved.

[Ari Melber]

You have it ruled out. Running for president.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, right now I'm focused on being the best governor of Kentucky I could be. I am who I am. And if I'm the person for the moment that can heal this country, it's something I'll consider. If I'm not, that's okay with me.

[Ari Melber]

In a word or a sentence.

[Andy Beshear]

That's tough for someone in a job like mine. Kentucky, that's amazing. It is a special place to be from. We love where we're from.

[Ari Melber]

Most underrated political value right now.

[Andy Beshear]

Oh, empathy.

[Ari Melber]

A song that you actually listen to.

[Andy Beshear]

Ooh, universal sound. Tyler Childers.

[Ari Melber]

All right.

[Andy Beshear]

Insane in the Membrane. Cypress Hill.

[Ari Melber]

Good one. But a Democrat you admire and a Republican you admire.

[Andy Beshear]

Democrat, fdr, Republican, Lincoln, but he's a Kentuckian.

[Ari Melber]

One thing that's what's totally understandable about Trump voters. How they voted, how they feel is.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, they feel like a part of something. He does make them feel that way. But in the end, I will judge this president for his decisions.

[Ari Melber]

Thanks for spending time with us on the beat. My question for beat viewers. Do you think a red state governor is the way to go for Democrats? You can go online on social media. Remelber. Let's just spell out my name. R I M E L B E R. I'm on Facebook, Instagram. You see it there and I read some of the comments. So do you like the idea of a red state governor, or should they go blue? That's kind of a red or blue question. Let me know and keep it locked on. Msnow.

[Harry Dunn]

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture, politics. Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.

[MSNow Announcer]

Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.