Trump “Thug Fund” Rivals Watergate

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber – Trump "Thug Fund" Rivals Watergate (May 21, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Ari Melber’s “special legal report” about the so-called Trump “Thug Fund,” a $1.7 billion allocation intended to compensate January 6th convicts and others involved in pro-Trump political violence. Melber explores the legal, political, and historical implications, arguing this marks an unprecedented level of presidential corruption—greater than Watergate. Notably, the episode features in-depth commentary from DOJ veteran Andrew Weissmann and political writer Molly Jong-Fast, examining both the fund’s legality and its threat to democratic norms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the “Thug Fund” and Bipartisan Backlash

• Theme: Donald Trump’s proposed fund for those convicted in the January 6th attack—widely dubbed the “Thug Fund”—is facing broad legal and political resistance, including from Republicans.
• Legal Pushback: Melber discusses congressional efforts to “kill” the fund and legal avenues under consideration.
  • Notable quote:
    Ari Melber (01:48): “They're going to, try to, quote, kill it. And that's just from Republicans.”
  • Andrew Weissmann (01:45): “Yeah, not a big fan.”

Timestamps

• [00:57–02:00] Ari introduces the controversy and initial responses.

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2. Comparing Watergate and Trump’s “Thug Fund”

• Severity Comparison: Melber forcefully argues that Trump’s actions are measurably worse than Nixon's Watergate crimes, which involved misuse of power but not sedition or violence against police.
  • Ari Melber (03:15): “The MAGA crimes here are more serious than [Watergate]: sedition, which is a more grave conviction than any of the Watergate charges.”
• Nature of the Crime: In Watergate, the abuse of power served political cover-ups. In Trump's case, Melber contends, taxpayer funds would directly reward political violence.

Timestamps

• [02:00–06:00] Watergate context, why Trump’s case is “worse.”

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3. The Fund’s Purpose: Self-Protection & Power

• Self-Dealing: Trump’s history of not paying allies or staff undercuts any claim his new fund is motivated by loyalty or justice.
  • Molly Jong-Fast (07:01): “President Trump is telling aides not to pay Rudy Giuliani's legal fees, the same...”
  • Ari Melber (06:30): “The record is that Donald Trump doesn't even pay his own people when it might be in his interest.”
• Rebuilding the Insurrection Force: Melber argues the fund is an attempt to incentivize future law-breaking in Trump’s name.
  • Ari Melber (08:40): “This is a brazen new step to start rebuilding Donald Trump’s insurrection force…”

Timestamps

• [06:00–09:00] Trump’s personal financial conduct as evidence.

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4. Historical Context: Pardons & Preparation for Future Violence

• Pattern Recognition: Trump’s willingness to pardon and now pay convicted January 6th participants signals preparation for potential future upheaval.
  • Ari Melber (13:13): “Documenting this link between Trump's New Thug Fund and plots for future political violence that build out his January 6th model.”
• Danger of Weakening Checks: The removal of independent, law-abiding officials from the administration makes future abuse more likely.
  • Ari Melber (17:35): “Now, he wants them paid by taking your tax dollars. And here's where it does get worse. Those law-abiding objectors, the type of people who put the law above Trump's demands, some of them are gone.”

Timestamps

• [09:00–18:00] Motives for the fund; parallels to the 2020–2021 transition and January 6th.

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5. Legislative and Legal Remedies

• Congressional Action: Andrew Weissmann emphasizes Congress’s immediate power to block the fund.
  • Andrew Weissmann (26:16): “The way that this can be stopped in the easiest way is for Congress to actually do something… To me that this is the moment for Congress to do it.”
• Political Calculus: Melber and Weissmann consider why lawmakers may hesitate—fear of being primaried, party loyalty—despite self-evident danger.
  • Ari Melber (28:08): “By self-interest and protection alone, wouldn’t Congress want to act swiftly?”
  • Andrew Weissmann (28:26): “Their self interest becomes aligning themselves…”

Timestamps

• [25:25–29:30] Legislative levers, psychology of Congress.

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6. The DOJ’s Complicity and Evasion

• Attorney General Blanch’s Role: Melber grills Blanch’s refusal to state outright that no money will reach violent January 6th convicts.
  • Ari Melber (29:21): "Will any of this money go to the people convicted of sedition and attacking police? Should be a quick no, it wasn't. What does that tell us?"
  • Andrew Weissmann (30:52): "It is the most disingenuous thing to say, oh, this isn't my job ... It is so... sickening..."

Timestamps

• [29:21–32:08] DOJ/Attorney General conduct, lack of transparency.

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7. Moral and Civic Stakes

• Threat to Democracy: Melber continually reframes the fund as a pressing danger to American democracy—not just a partisan issue.
  • Ari Melber (18:08): "This is the central, largest, obviously most violent national security risk we face as a nation and as a democracy."
• Public Action: Both guests urge engagement and public pressure on Congress, citing public outrage as a catalyst for change.

Timestamps

• [18:00–19:00], [26:16–29:30] National security and democratic risk; civic call-to-action.

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8. Book Plug and Philosophical Reflection

• Liar’s Kingdom (Weissmann’s book): Discussion of political lying and democratic responsibility.
  • Andrew Weissmann (33:30): "Why are we not holding politicians who are either running for office or in office to account when they lie?"
  • Ari Melber (35:02): “Friend of the show, 50 Cent, said, 'I hate a liar more than I hate a thief. A thief is after my salary. A liar is after my reality.'”

Timestamps

• [33:06–35:27] Book talk, the danger of political lies.

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9. The “Honey Badger” Segment & Republican Senate Fears

• Republican Infighting: Melber, Weissmann, and Molly Jong-Fast discuss Trump’s “honey badger” approach—indifferent to party consequences—highlighting his endorsement of problematic candidates.
  • Ari Melber (36:55): “Trump don’t care. For the first time, we can note that gas prices are above four bucks in every state...”
  • Molly Jong-Fast (40:05): “Yeah, when you saw when he made that Paxton endorsement, you saw those senators come out stone faced, refusing to say anything.”
• Historic Precedents: The Roy Moore Senate race is cited as a parallel to Trump sabotaging his own party’s interests out of vindictiveness.
  • Ari Melber (42:27): “Remember Roy Moore? Republicans were begging him not to pick Roy Moore.”

Timestamps

• [35:27–44:40] Party tension, the "honey badger" meme, electoral consequences.

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Notable Quotes

• Ari Melber (03:15): “The MAGA crimes here are more serious than [Watergate]: sedition, which is a more grave conviction than any of the Watergate charges.”
• Andrew Weissmann (26:16): "This is the moment for Congress to do it."
• Ari Melber (29:21): "Will any of this money go to the people convicted of sedition and attacking police? Should be a quick no, it wasn't. What does that tell us?"
• Andrew Weissmann (30:52): “It is so I'm just going to say it's sickening to see that when you are a public official… you are required to give information and truthful information and respond to questions politely and respectfully like an adult in something that is this serious...”
• Ari Melber (35:02): “Friend of the show 50 Cent said, 'I hate a liar more than I hate a thief. A thief is after my salary. A liar is after my reality.'”
• Molly Jong-Fast (42:59): "Alabama [elected a Democrat] because of that misfire. Great point."

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Memorable Moments

• Replaying Trump’s Contradictory Statements:
  Melber juxtaposes Trump’s post-January 6th statements condemning violence ([14:38]) with his later pardoning and now proposed funding of those offenders.
• “Thug Fund” Language:
  The persistent use of this term underscores the episode’s condemnation and attempts to reframe media coverage that uses euphemisms or downplays the seriousness.
• Honey Badger Metaphor:
  The “honey badger don’t care” meme is used to illustrate Trump's indifference to party, country, or consequences ([36:40–41:45]).

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Key Timestamps Quick Reference

• 00:57–02:00 – Introduction and bipartisan criticism of the fund
• 03:15–04:30 – Watergate comparison
• 06:00–09:00 – Trump’s payment history as pattern
• 13:13–18:00 – Preparations for future violence, weakened checks
• 25:25–29:30 – Weissmann on legal and legislative options
• 29:21–32:08 – DOJ complicity, AG Blanch’s evasiveness
• 33:06–35:27 – Weissmann’s book and the problem of political lying
• 35:27–44:40 – “Honey badger” segment, Senate implications, Roy Moore analogy

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Tone and Language

The tone is urgent, direct, and often impassioned—reflecting deep concern over the normalization of political violence and legal abuses. Melber’s language is blunt, framing Trump’s actions in the strongest moral and civic terms (“pro sedition, pro violence”) while guests Weissmann and Jong-Fast speak as legal and political experts, sometimes with pointed humor or pop culture references.

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Conclusion

Ari Melber’s report contends that Trump’s “Thug Fund” is an unprecedented abuse of presidential power—surpassing Watergate in both scope and consequence—because it seeks to reward and incentivize violent attacks on American democracy, using public money. The guests highlight the urgency of legislative and civic pushback, critique the current DOJ stance, and connect the episode to historical and global struggles with political deceit. The broader message is clear: democratic vigilance and action are more necessary than ever in confronting this unprecedented threat.

Transcript

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melber. We have a legal special report coming up in this block, but we begin, of course, with what is now the biggest story haunting Donald Trump. The pushback, the lawsuits over his thug fund. The criticism is bipartisan. Now it's drawing Republican backlash, threatening to stop the plot. Congressman, what do you make of this $1.7 billion fund for Bhartan? We're trying to kill it. You're going to try and kill it?

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

Okay. And how?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Well, we're considering legislative options. We're going to write a letter to the AG to start, but we're considering a legislative option.

[Ari Melber]

Okay.

[Andrew Weissmann]

We're trying to unpack.

[Ari Melber]

Exactly, you know, what the legal machinations are, but can't do that. Right. What are your thoughts about this weaponization fund from the president at this point?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yeah, not a big fan.

[Ari Melber]

Not a big fan. Can't do it. They're going to, try to, quote, kill it. And that's just from Republicans. Democrats say the world is witnessing one of the most brazen acts of corruption and self dealing in American history. New lawsuits coming from police who've lived through this arguing the financing here would basically fund insurrectionists and the paramilitary groups that commit violence in Trump's name. This is of course an anti police measure. There's no other way to think about it. Donald Trump is not just soft on crime, he is pro thug, pro violence, pardoning and funding. The January six convicts say they're happy. Conservative Wall Street Journal editorial board says this is rotten and that those convicts have to explain they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. A police Officer began smashing his face into their fists. The kind of Orwellian upside down language that would only defend this. The Times says there's never been an example of presidential corruption like this. A new claim coming from a former Trump official, Michael Caputo. He wants millions because he was investigated in the Mueller probe. So there is broad pushback to Donald Trump's unprecedented plot here. But I want to tell you right now, this is actually worse than it even looks. Which brings us to our special report tonight. Trump's plot is measurably worse than Watergate, which famously drove Nixon from office. That was about misusing government power to cover up political crimes against domestic opponents and some critics. Now, those crimes were serious. Nixon henchman were caught burglarizing the Democratic headquarters, something they still teach in school. And there was domestic espionage and then obstruction of justice by Nixon and his top aides. So the rot went to the top. But let's be clear, the MAGA crimes here are more serious than that sedition, which is a more grave conviction than any of the Watergate charges. So you don't have to take anyone's word for it. We had a legal process then as now. We have a code of law and federal crimes in this country for a reason. And these crimes that he has already pardoned and now wants to fund are worse, including committing violence against police and advocating violence against U.S. officials. Remember Trump freedom, those violent criminals which broke his own claims in 2021 to oppose that violence when he was worried about his impeachment trial. It also contradicts Republicans who had claimed they were drawing a line at the actual violence that day. Remember a few years ago, the Republican talk, the Tucker Carlson spin, was about tourists and people who were visiting and that many of them were not the violent ones, which minimized it, but showed an awareness of how heinous and unacceptable and anti American the violence was. Now, to be clear tonight, the news is Trump's DOJ says they're open to paying those same violent convicts with this pilfered huge tax dollar fund which Congress did not appropriate. They claim they can take the money, as you see here, and give it to secret recipients, including violent convicts. I want to be very clear with you based on the facts, this is a thug fund. Trump wants to take your taxpayer money in a way that's probably illegal under the current precedent we have, and give it to thugs, violent convicts, seditionists even. This is not about the irs. It's not even about the propaganda language of weaponization. And we've actually seen some of the coverage fall into the misleading trap where the media parrots that the government currently controlled by someone who is pro violence and anti police. They parrot some of what the government says. It's an understandable habit. In normal times, you tend to quote the government, but here, quoting just their Orwellian words can sanewash what is a anti police, anti American, pro sedition, pro coup, violent supporting effort. So even amid the outcry, there are headlines that seem to miss how bad this is by discussing it in terms of a, quote, settlement or money or compensation for Trump's allies as part of a lawsuit settlement, it is not that. And even if these funds are ultimately thwarted as illegal by the Congress or the courts, which we're seeing a big movement to stop, here's why this matters even more and why this is our special report for you. Right now. We have to remember, this is not about Trump wanting to compensate or help people facing, quote, weaponization. We're talking about someone who doesn't even pay his own closest employees and lawyers and contractors and people who've kept his secrets, let alone take a big risk and heat to try to move this money to people he's never even met. So exhibit A in my special report tonight for you. I want you to keep in mind how the history is instructive. Donald Trump, as you properly alluded to, does not pay legal bills. If you don't perform well in front of Donald Trump, he won't pay his bills.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

President Trump is telling aides not to pay Rudy Giuliani's legal fees, the same

[Ari Melber]

exact thing that he did to me. He doesn't care about anyone or anything other than himself. So the actual record, not a supposition, not a prediction, not an opinion, the record is that Donald Trump doesn't even pay his own people when it might be in his interest. So this new plan isn't about helping random people who are upset with the government. It's also different than some of the other scandals Trump is facing that may later be investigated or potentially prosecuted. The self dealing, corruption where Donald Trump just takes money for himself and his family. This is different and could have wider risk. This is a brazen new step to start rebuilding Donald Trump's insurrection force. How he has freed and is now trying to fund the convicts willing to break the law for Trump to do violence. Now, remember, those are people who did those things long after many of his other employees, aides and government officials stopped. So it's not just a thug fund to try to lie about the past or reshape history which has been such a big project of the maga. Right. We know Trump has tried to lie a lot about his 2020 loss, and he's also lied and tried to minimize with allies who've become more vocal in their lies in the last few years, even after the Fox defamation case and other problems about the 2021 convicted sedition. The evidence shows tonight this is about the future. And that makes it even more dangerous. Donald Trump knows and he lived through what happens when you have an election loss. You could be commander in chief, have your finger on the bomb and all that, but when you have a loss, it shifts power quickly. He knows how even what he had some pretty, pretty serious political loyalists on policy and secrecy and a lot of other issues quickly moved on. They moved on because he lost. So if Donald Trump's Republican Party, which as yesterday's primaries show is definitely Trump's for the time being, if that party loses in 2028, he remembers how quickly people shift. And he knows Donald Trump knows that he and his team and his family will be facing legal liabilities that dwarf the first term. That's when he left office. After the failed insurrection, he became the first former president ever indicted. There's more tentacles, more problem, more corruption now. And even if he doesn't think that he would actually wind up indicted in jail again and he has a better Supreme Court shield, he and his family would be spending potentially years in at least the investigation of those issues, if not more. If the DOJ goes back to an independent format and Trump lost in court, he lost those officials last time. After the loss, he turned to more desperate and aggressive measures. We tracked it in these plots, which were notably indicted over time. Things that started out lawful, of course you can file lawsuits. The top arrow you see turned red and indicted over time, culminating in the insurrection that Trump now supports with these individuals he's now brazenly, publicly trying to fund with your money. That final arrow sabotage, January 6th was a tactic to go after the January 6th certification that was not a big date in American history because other presidents had never summoned a rally that then turned into a sedition to physically, violently prevent the timely certification on that date. Remember, it initially worked. It was short term effective in that the certification was initially prevented lawmakers fleeing as that violence, which Trump has since embraced with full pardons, did its work.

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Please may Bob your mask under your seats. Please grab a mask, place it in

[Ari Melber]

your lap and be there to don your bag.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Everybody stay down. Get down.

[Ari Melber]

Trees, trees, trees.

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Fuck your name. Amen.

[Ari Melber]

That mayhem was happening in the seat of democracy on a day when, of course, there was some security, maybe not enough to prevent the January 6th certification through violence. And remember, what Donald Trump said the next day is part of the case against him now. It's actually shocking and I'm going to show it to you when our Special report continues after this short break. We've been the trusted experts since 1960 because nobody knows tires better than we do. And with over 90 tire brands, we have an abundance of options in stock for your vehicle. Buy and Drive [e-mail] Let's get you taken care of.

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[Ari Melber]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why is this Happening? In the next episode of our special miniseries, the AI Endgame, I'm speaking with UC Berkeley professor of psychology Allison Gopnik.

[Allison Gopnik]

I think people are working on AI models that are more like children, but the models that everyone's paying attention to that get called artificial intelligence, the chatgpts, the clauds, they're not doing that. What they're doing is taking all of the material that human beings have already learned and then they use these statistical methods to try to organize and summarize and agglomerate that information.

[Ari Melber]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame? Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to our special report documenting this link between Trump's New Thug Fund and and plots for future political violence that build out his January 6th model. Remember, that was so horrific that lawmakers in both parties had to be whisked away, taken to these secure rooms where they were literally hiding out from the violent threat of Trump's fans. The Secret Service agents we learned later were calling their loved ones bracing for a mass shootout that they expected to be deadly when trying to defend then Vice President Pence from a mob unleashed by Trump. And as I promised you before the break, I want you to watch this closely because it tells you so much about where we were then with the prospect of some accountability and an impeachment trial on the horizon and where we are today, tonight and in the days ahead. Because then President Trump, the day after claimed to oppose the violent part of the mob he unleashed.

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness, and mayhem. To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law, you will pay.

[Ari Melber]

Trump did not want them to pay. He was lying. He was not outraged by the violence against police. Fellow Americans, endangering fellow citizens. I shouldn't have to say it, but endangering Democrats and Republicans alike. He did not make them pay. Think about what you heard then, even in this time where people are so sort of just exhausted, inured, deadened by all of this, which of course rewards the people that want you that way, when we actually need to come together at times like this, civically. He didn't make them pay. He rewarded them with those pardons. Even the most violent convicts. He showed that. And this is something no one, I think, should take any happiness in. It's a sad thing to say about a sitting president, but Donald Trump showed that those violent convicts do indeed represent his vision of the country. He would want the partisan, lawless part of the country that he would like to lead against everyone else, which still means against the majority of us. Donald Trump now previewing potentially new, broader pardons before he leaves this term. And when you look at that kind of reporting, you have to remember pardons are for criminals. So what else is President Trump planning? That he openly, brazenly talks up broad pardons years out for the people around him? The insurrection came at the end of the day. Of those plots that we documented and I showed you, that was the last time he lost a federal presidential election. I'm not talking midterms because of the nature of the control of the administration. Doj, that, of course, is only every four years. This is what he was trying to do the last time he lost that kind of election. And his team already admits plans to abuse federal powers to interfere with voting and probe local voting offices, and they're trying to seize voting rolls. And if those plots to try to steal or distort the election outcome fail in advance, and if Republicans lose in 2028, that would hand DOJ back to independent oversight. And so Trump already has this past blueprint which led to the insurrection, that he is now pardoned, which means he is quite legally, literally, pro violence and pro insurrection. And this time, I want you to understand, because it matters and Being prepared matters and being on alert matters. This time it is wor because those plots, some of them failed and faltered because of Trump's own aides who famously objected. A vice president who refused to join lies about certifying the loss of the ticket he was on because he still was factual and lawful about it, the Trump pence ticket lost. Or an attorney general who took the rare step of leading the DOJ to publicly reject Trump's voter fraud claims at the time, which was a setback as Trump tried to get those claims up to the Supreme Court. It failed in those appeals. Then plots that faltered partly because those officials who were of course politically loyal to Trump and arch conservative in their beliefs, but they did refuse at the end to break the law. It includes also the indelible Trump stain on American history of his own VP certifying the actual results of the election as Trump's fans quite literally clamored to assassinate and hang him. Some of the fans who were there that day, of course are later convicted and Trump has now freed them, which shows you exactly where he stands on efforts to assassinate even his running mate vice president, who was a heartbeat from the presidency. He freed them. Now he wants them paid by taking your tax dollars. And here's where it does get worse. Those law abiding objectors, the type of people who put the law above Trump's demands, some of them are gone. We now have what has been reported as a kind of mini MAGA state within the administration. And even after this first year that had more baseless probes and charges of opponents than any time in history, we've been tracking for you here. And I am drawing all these connections tonight so we see what we're up against as a nation on a nonpartisan civic basis. Even after this hit list was pursued with evidence free crusades against both a CIA and FBI chief, which is pretty bananas. Even after Bondi did all of that, Trump still fired her because he doesn't think she went far enough and is now auditioning how much farther, which is to say how much more lawless Acting Attorney General Blanch can be. And in his short time at the top of the job, we've seen that he is soft on crime, coddles criminals, is willing to lie. I mean, that's just in the first weeks. We are a long way from the first term. I repeatedly told the President in no uncertain terms that I did not see evidence of fraud. I made it clear I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff Which I told the president was bullied. Today, a grand jury sitting in the Eastern District of North Carolina returned an indictment against James Comey on two counts. I love working for President Trump. I love you, sir. This is the historical record that you have to view more widely to understand this Thug Fund, which is still being called by other names, even by some of its critics. But if you take money and give it to violent convicts who attack police who are thugs in every sense of the word, it's a thug fund. It's not about compensating random people or even political allies. Trump's never prioritized that, not in his entire public career. And it's not even just about the past, although it includes diluting and minimizing and spinning and lying about the past. It is along with the plots I showed you and public statements of these government officials. We're only reporting what they admit they're planning. It's about fortifying the effort to fund and support people who will go farther, people who have previously committed crimes and violence. We know this from drawing on the record and the testimony and the evidence exposed by the House January 6th Committee, plus a lot of other independent, dogged work by journalists and other fact finders, who, of course, are so attacked these days. And yet, let's be clear, that's part of how we know what we know. Now you might say, okay, Ari, this is giving me a lot of negative. Well, sometimes to get to the positive, we have to face the negative quite squarely rather than minimize it or look away. I can tell you that some lawmakers are moving faster this time than the first term to confront the Thug Fund and this effort and what it says about the very uncomfortable fact that we have a pro sedition, pro violence leader of the country right now. This is what Congressman Raskin is now warning is the looting of the taxpayers to fund a dangerous private militia. It's all about weaponizing the tax dollars of the American people to support Donald Trump's private militia. If these people had real viable causes of action against anybody, they would go to federal court. And the ones who have gone to federal court have lost their cases overwhelmingly. That is true. That's what the congressman told Rachel this week. There are a lot of problems right now, and there's a lot of pushback to Donald Trump on a lot of different points. And citizens, people, through our civic process, people will decide in their own minds what they think is more important. Obviously, when you look at the economy and affordability and the gas crunch, there's a lot of people focused on that. That might be the reason that they stand up in a way that also helps thwart or beat back those who would join the President's effort to steal democracy again, potentially through violence. But this is the central, largest, obviously most violent national security risk we face as a nation and as a democracy. We'll be right back for more perspective from Andrew Weissman.

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[Ari Melber]

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[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem. To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction. You do not represent our country and to those who broke the law you will pay.

[Ari Melber]

Almost shocking to watch now then President Trump lie and claim that there would be hell to pay if you will for those convicts which he has since pardoned and now seeks to fund. I'm Joined by longtime DOJ vet Andrew Weissman, the author of the new book Liars Kingdom, how to Stop Trump's Deceit and Save America. Everyone knows we rely on Andrew for a lot and you can get Liars Kingdom. Google it, Check it out right now, wherever books are sold. Andrew, I tried to show that this is not just an outrage and unlawful for the many reasons that have been mentioned. It's not really a settlement. Congress has to appropriate funds. The president can't just raid tax dollars and then give out money to other people. But that above all that it also fits with an effort to revive the failed coup.

[Andrew Weissmann]

I was listening to you. I was listening to how impassioned you were and I agreed with everything that you said about this. There are two lanes. I'm usually here to talk about the legal lane. But the way that this can be stopped in the easiest way is for Congress to actually do something. And we have seen them do that for the Federal Reserve when they thought that there were unfair attacks on their independence. We have seen public reaction with respect to what this administration was doing in Minnesota and the administration for political reasons in terms of public outcry, having to pull back in the face of the murder and shooting of three people there, in addition to a whole series of abuses. If Congress wakes up and does something, if it's needed, in response to people saying this is, as you said, not just in my view, theft of $1.8 billion, but the use of that money then for completely political and illicit purposes. To me that this is the moment for Congress to do it. There will be lawsuits and that's the other track.

[Ari Melber]

But you're saying it's inner branch. You don't have to wait, you don't have to defer. You go and you say no, this is not what we ever appropriated. We showed one of the Republicans walking down the hall saying, no, we're going to kill it. And there's so much rhetoric about democracy. I just want to say something obvious that gets forgotten. They tried to kill members of Congress.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Exactly.

[Ari Melber]

You would think by self interest alone, Congress would think long and hard about funding that crew of violent people who are roaming the streets feeling immune and lawless. Now they get extra money and are emboldened for the future by self interest and protection alone. Wouldn't Congress want to act swiftly?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yes, but they also look. And if you have Republican members of Congress, Senators and members of the House saying I don't want to be primaried, and I want to keep my job and by the way, I'm not saying that I get it, offense. I'm saying that their self interest becomes aligning themselves. But it also is one where they may be able to act en masse. And the same what we saw with respect to the Epstein files. But part of that for people listening to this is Congress very much getting the reading the room and getting a sense of what is the level of public outrage because they will respond to that, or at least hopefully they will in the same way you've seen it in other circumstances. To me, that's the remedy here for the immediate term so that you're. The courts will get involved, there will be lawsuits. There was one today, but I think there will be many more.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And Todd Blanch, I've mentioned, has the fastest slide of anyone who's been in that job, acting or permanent I've ever seen in covering this here. He was failing to rule out because apparently he thinks his boss is going to want funding violence. So here he was. Will you agree to encourage those commissioners to set a guideline that compensation will not go to individuals who are convicted of assaulting police officers? I expect just a yes would answer my question or a no. Yes, we'll not answer that question. I mean, you're asking whether I will encourage. I don't think that's a fair word. I don't think it's the attorney general's job to encourage commissioners to do or not do anything. So I mean, that's so anti police, soft on crime, anti blue lives, everything else.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Absolutely.

[Ari Melber]

And he, as a lawyer, he tries to get into talking about commissioners and technicalities. That's not what anybody. If you asked Attorney General, hey, I know you got this complex plan. Will any of this money go to terrorists or al Qaeda? No, of course not. Will any of this money go to the people convicted of sedition and attacking police? Should be a quick no, it wasn't. What does that tell us?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Well, one, he is not getting ahead of the president. Remember where we were when before the beginning of the second term and we heard from Pam Monde and from JD Vance essentially, don't worry in the pardons, we're gonna do triage. Don't worry, we're gonna. The people who are violent. That's not really that. Those are not the people.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, we did hear that.

[Andrew Weissmann]

And then of course, what happened? Mass pardons for everyone, even the people who are serious. Violence and criminality. So this is one, not getting ahead of the president on that. But two, it is the most disingenuous thing to say, oh, this isn't my job. The commissioners will decide that. You are the acting Attorney General of the United States. You set up the fund. You don't have the ability to put rules in place. Of course you do. It is so I'm just going to say it's sickening to see that when you are a public official, you may not like being asked questions in Congress, you may not like oversight. If you don't like it and you're not willing to do it, don't take the job. You are required to give information and truthful information and respond to questions politely and respectfully like an adult in something that is this serious and there's absolutely no recognition. It feels like a sort of sycophantic, immature response with somebody who is really not taking the responsibilities to the public seriously in responding to what's going on.

[Ari Melber]

Yes. And I think the reason why this is an alert for people to understand is this is how they're acting now. If they are desperately trying to hold on power because Trump, who has corrupted many people around him, has Blanche also worried about being investigated or disbarred. The last desperate measures will relate to violence. There will be false indictments that already have been. And the public is going to have to figure out, just as we saw in Minnesota, how you deal with that. It's not a fair fight, but there are more law abiding democracy believers in this country than those willing to do that violence. It was a very effective, I have to say, but as an observer, but small number of people relative to the American population that stormed the Capitol. Right. And so it may also be, I mean, I want to get ahead of ourselves, but it may be that if you don't trust the federal, the federal officers under Donald Trump to protect the sixth certification, that a lot of other peaceful people come to surround the Capitol. I mean, we've seen this in other countries. Before we get out of here, I have a very nerdy way to ask about your book.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Okay, what do you got?

[Ari Melber]

We get these interpretive daddles in law school and you say, what would Jefferson say about this? Scalia asks, what would the original Constitution say about that? What does Liars Kingdom, which is a new book, what would it say about this problem we're facing and this level of illegality at the top of the doj, which is a way of saying, tell us about the prism of your new book, Liars Kingdom.

[Andrew Weissmann]

So you know, you in your initial segments were talking about the sort of core lie that's underlying this, which is sort of the whitewashing of January 6th and that we're all supposed to not believe what we saw. I am tackling the question of why are we not holding politicians who are either running for office or in office to account when they lie. When we hold, we hold all sorts of people to account, criminally and civilly. Rudy Giuliani when he defames Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss. Eugene Carroll when she says she and wins on being defamed by the president of the United States. I prosecuted Enron executives for lying about the state of Enron and we protected shareholders. Well. Why do we not care about the ballot as much as we care about stock price? And I'm dealing with that. I look at examples from overseas about how other countries have dealt with this problem. I look at how states have dealt with this problem and propose some solutions.

[Ari Melber]

I think it's fascinating. Again, I will hold it up. It's liars Kingdom. Andrew, we've talked about a lot of serious stuff I will reveal. And people who watch the show know that I only say 100% true things. I'm a journalist, after all, so obviously it's true. When I mentioned that, you said to me, well, is there a lyric I can give you to go out on book tour? Which I thought was nice that you asked me that.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yeah. Because, you know, I'm a huge fan of the lyric. So what do you got?

[Ari Melber]

Friend of the show 50 Cent said, I hate a liar more than I hate a thief. A thief is after my salary. A liar is after my reality.

[Andrew Weissmann]

I love it.

[Ari Melber]

Do you? I use it.

[Andrew Weissmann]

I do.

[Ari Melber]

You can use it. And now we have to say full disclosure. That was a joke. Andrew didn't ask me for that lyric. But you got it. Anyway.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Appreciate you. Congrats on the book.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Covered a lot of ground. We have Donald Trump's gas gaff coming up. And what does the honey badger, a famed Internet meme, have to do with why Republicans say Donald Trump made it more likely just made it more likely that they'll lose the Senate. That's next with Molly. Republican senators are worried more today than before about losing the Senate to Democrats. This is a midterm problem. And Trump, according to some, is acting like, well, a honey badger who don't care. If you don't know what we're talking about, we'll remind you of a meme that went really viral. This is the Honey Badger. Honey badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a. It just takes what it wants. You think the honey Badger cares? It doesn't give a. But look, the honey badger doesn't care. Trump aides have actually made this comparison before, but Republicans tonight are upset that he doesn't care about their party's position in the midterms. They have the Iran war problem. It's dragging down the party. Trump now says he's in no hurry to end the war

[Molly Jong-Fast]

on the Iran deal. Would you be open to a limited deal that just covered the Strait of Hormuz?

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Would have to open the strait. That would open immediately. So we're going to give this one shot. I'm in no hurry. You never think, oh, the midterms. I'm in a hurry. I'm in no hurry.

[Ari Melber]

Trump don't care. For the first time, we can note that gas prices are above four bucks in every state, which means no matter where you live, you are paying these huge prices. Trump don't care. He calls it peanuts.

[Donald Trump (archive audio)]

Well, there may be. It's very temporary. This is peanuts. It won't be much longer. But you're going to have. And frankly, there is so much oil out there.

[Ari Melber]

Yes, there is oil out there, but it's gotten a lot more expensive because of one reason. Donald Trump started a war that no Americans appear to be comfortable with anymore. And that's not all. Trump don't care about that. But he also don't care about Republican incumbents who think that the best way to hold onto the Senate is to run the most popular candidates. That's kind of what political parties exist to do. And yet, because with Trump, it's all about Trump. He don't care that according to top Republicans, this is not Ms. Now reporting this, this is not some random observer. Top Republicans are saying that he has undercut the party's chances when it could all come down to even one race because it's so close that he picked the clearly less popular, more controversial candidate option in Texas, not the incumbent Senator John Corn. But the challenger once impeached, ethically attacked Ken Paxton. He has settled a federal corruption indictment, impeached for alleged fraud and obstruction of justice. His wife filed for divorce amid allegations of affairs. Paxton seems fairly flawed. I mean, his wife's calling him an adulterer all over the place. And, you know, I think, I'm not quite sure if he's a felon, but it seems like at one point he was at risk of being convicted. So it's just a problematic candidate. That's what Republican senators are saying, that obviously picking the worst candidate for all the reasons you just heard, again from a Republican will hurt the Republicans in the Senate and Trump don't care. The odds, if you track that kind of thing, are plummeting in reaction to what are obvious differences between the two candidates. Now, for Democrats, they're very happy on this that Trump don't care. They want more honey badger, especially when it comes to picking candidates. As for Republican Party war policy and a lot of important other things, the honey badger is, as we all knew from the beginning, a mixed blessing. Molly Jong Fast is here on this story. Next, The man who will be the

[Andrew Weissmann]

top advisor to the future President of the United States.

[Ari Melber]

His personal motto is Honey badger, don't give it. And if you are unfamiliar with the

[Andrew Weissmann]

phrase, this is where he got it from.

[Ari Melber]

This is the honey badger. Honey badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a. Don't say they didn't warn you. Steve Bannon's been talking about this honey badger comparison for years, and it is back in the news tonight. Molly Jong Fast is here from the New York Times to discuss the honey badger issues. Donald Trump don't care whether it's the war or the Senate. Republicans who are really mad that they think he quite obviously hurt their chances to hold the Senate.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah, when you saw when he made that Paxton endorsement, you saw those senators come out stone faced, refusing to say anything. And look, he made it after we saw Republicans spend and spend and spend on Cornyn like they may. He made it at the worst possible time because it was already, you know, well into this runoff. Had he endorsed Paxton earlier, Republican donors could have saved millions of dollars.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, not even people who follow the news don't keep track of the intramural differences in the Tex race. Yeah, but when Trump does this, what he's saying is his anger at Cornyn is greater than his desire to hold the Senate, which even by Trump or honey badger standards. I'm going to stay with the comparison is odd because losing the House is a hassle to an incumbent lame duck final two years. Losing the Senate is a disaster. For one thing, these impeachment cases that could come on any number of issues, including the fund that we covered tonight. As soon as you lose a Senate and Democrats control that, they could schedule a trial. They could schedule two or three impeachment trials in a row. They can do a lot of things if they control the Senate and they

[Molly Jong-Fast]

also control filling Supreme Court seats. Right. So Donald Trump will not be able to fill any more seats if he loses the Senate. Look, Paxton is a much harder candidate. And even if he wins, which I think is going to really be a heavy lift. It's going to be money that Republicans are not going to be able to spend in Ohio, in North Carolina, in Alaska, because all that money is going to be poured into Texas and it'll probably be like one of the most expensive Senate races ever.

[Ari Melber]

So do you feel like we're watching a really bizarre move? Like, as you and I follow the news, people look at it and say, I get the vindictive thing. I mean, that's his thing, but it's still against his self interest. Do you see it as bizarre? Or another way to ask is, do you think that Trump on point back in 2017 would do something this harmful to his own politics?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

You don't think he's lost his head? You think this is just.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

This is. I mean, Is he almost 80? Yes. Does he seem disinhibited?

[Ari Melber]

For sure.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Has he done things like this before? Roy Moore.

[Ari Melber]

Remember Roy Moore? I do remember Roy Moore. Wow.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

I hadn't thought about Roy Moore in years. Molly. Roy Moore.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Republicans were begging him not to pick Roy Moore.

[Ari Melber]

He was the. He was. I have to say this legally. There were credible accusations of.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

He was allegedly Epstein before Epstein.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Right. They were. He was Alabama running for Senate. He had been asked to stay away from the local mall. That we know. Right. Because for obvious reasons. And they in Alabama elected a Democrat, Doug Jones.

[Ari Melber]

Alabama. Right. Alabama, because of that misfire. Great point. This is why we ask you questions. I hadn't thought about that in years. Yes or no? Just be honest.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Let's go.

[Ari Melber]

Donald Trump in his second term, more mature than the first term.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Are you quoting Jeff Bezos?

[Ari Melber]

I'm just asking you yes or no? I said yes or no?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

He's older.

[Ari Melber]

I said yes or no?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

He's older.

[Ari Melber]

Yes or no?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

No.

[Ari Melber]

Okay. I just wanted to get that in. No. Yes or no? You're like, that's in a deposition. You'd have trouble. You'd have trouble.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

That's a hoax.

[Ari Melber]

I want to hear your full answer, but that's my intro to this clip.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yes.

[Ari Melber]

I think he is a more mature, more disciplined version of himself than he was in his first term. Trump has lots of good ideas and he's been right about a lot of things. You have to give him credit where credit is due.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

I don't have to give him credit and I won't give him credit. And it's not due. Look, fourth richest man in the world. He has. Donald Trump is polling as poorly as he's ever polled. He's underwater on everything. Even Republican leaders leaning indies his bread and butter are mad at him. Gas is 4 plus dollars a gallon, diesel is 6. There is no reason to hit your wagon to the Donald Trump star at this moment. Except maybe there's some regulatory thing or maybe there's some reason that Jeff Bezos wants to come out at this moment. But it seems like a real error to me and obviously he's not. He was much better behaved Donald Trump in his first term because he had people around him to keep him behaved.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. You know, we don't always get to even hear what some of these very rich influential folks are doing. They have outsized impact on our politics and our economy. And this was an interview where you learned the mentality that somebody both asserts that as true, more mature and thinks that that is a reasonable thing to share. So take that for what you will. Molly. Knowledge of political history a yes. Analysis a thank you deposition performance needs improvement.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Also rap knowledge.

[Ari Melber]

Well, wait, I didn't. I'm not. I don't. The yes or no question. And then I was like, yeah, that's those. That's it. That's it.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

That's right.

[Ari Melber]

Great. But I don't think you have any big depositions to do. God willing, let's hope. All right. Thanks to Molly. We'll be right back.

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