← The Beat with Ari Melber
The Beat with Ari Melber
Trump Wields Government Power to Target Foes, Pressure Dissent
00:41:43
MSNBC’s Ari Melber reports on how President Trump is wielding government power to prosecute rivals, while cracking down on dissent with federal agents on U.S. streets. Vanity Fair’s Molly Jong-Fast and Maya Wiley join to discuss.
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- [00:00]
Ted Danson
Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes wherever you get your podcasts. I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre filled syringe, which contains fgartegamide alpha and hyaluronidase qvfc. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment my way. Visit vivgardmyway.com that's V Y V G A R T my way.com and talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo Brought to you by Argenex welcome to the Beat.
- [01:02]
Ari Melber
I'm Ari Melba reporting on President Trump continuing to demand these prosecutions of his own opponents, the DOJ on this blatant tear, new charges against the New York Attorney General Letitia James, former director Comey and other moves against officials who have crossed Trump. News of the DOJ pushing a grand jury to indict Trump's own former Aiden John Bolton was a big deal going into the weekend. Trump also now pushing for new charges against Democratic Senator Adam Schiff, calling on the, quote, authorities that he controls to investigate the senator. And this comes after Trump named Schiff among two other people who have since been indicted. Schiff was an especially prominent leader of Trump's first impeachment, which is of course a lawful process where Congress can discuss or seek removal of a sitting president. But Trump's admitting in public to an unlawful plot to try to get Schiff indicted for that and regardless of evidence now abusing powers to charge and jail individuals to threaten silence or kneecap opponents is much more associated with foreign autocrats than American government. Trump has blatantly admitted his goals to go get critics without even claiming to name reasons or specific crimes. Systems that punish or disappear opponents are not considered very democratic and elections don't mean much if the top rivals to a potential autocrat are just stuck in jail. An election in that format doesn't work very well and that's what we've seen in Putin's Russia. Donald Trump's moves don't come in isolation. They come as he tries to seize powers to keep troops and federal agents across US Streets even as some judges are limiting those powers as we go now, this is serious. It is happening and it is not popular. While Trump has been bluntly pushing hard because the DOJ wouldn't do any of these cases under the traditional rules with many of the long standing and nonpartisan staff, up until very recently, they weren't getting these charges, remember. But his own team knows that this is unpopular and they are denying what is happening. Partly, apparently because to admit it would make it even worse. Take Vice President J.D. vance. Remember, he's a Yale educated lawyer who said in 2016 he worried Trump was either cynical like Nixon or worse, a, quote, morally reprehensible person who could be, Vance infamously said, quote, America's Hitler, unquote. Now, Vance reversed himself once Trump came to power. And unlike Donald Trump today, who admits these revenge goals are based on the people. Go get these people, he names them. Not any type of evidence, not any type of legal process. But Vance now claims against the evidence that it's all just normal law and facts.
- [03:47]
Interviewer/Reporter
Is the Department of Justice acting on orders from the president to prosecute his political opponents with the final 30 seconds we have left?
- [03:56]
Ari Melber
No, we're driven by the law and the facts of the case. I think if you look at the case, the fact that a far left grand jury in a far left area indicted Letitia James and James Comey. If you look at the fact that James Comey obviously lied under oath, Letitia James obviously committed mortgage fraud. What we're doing is letting the law drive the prosecution decisions in the Department of Justice. You know who we haven't prosecuted? Joe Biden or Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. The Trump Vance doj, of course, is the source of contradicting Vance's claims. The law and the facts were what drove us up to this point. And without any recent indictments for several months on these cases, I'm not talking in general, but on the Comey and James case, there was a process and the law and the facts did not result in charges, even in a DOJ with a Trump attorney general and Pam Bondi's picks for who should be U.S. attorney. And so if you've watched the news, you know what happened next and why Vance is wrong. The Trump DOJ swapped in this new, very inexperienced prosecutor who would do precisely what DOJ would not do before, what the facts and law had not Seduced before. So Trump's mindset is clear. He's agitated to indict opponents. Since his first campaign, it has taken this long, however, to distort and sort of restaff the DOJ to find people willing to risk their law licenses and maybe more to do what he wanted.
- [05:27]
Maya Wiley
It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country.
- [05:34]
Ari Melber
Yeah, because you'd be in jail. Trump admitted that on the campaign's biggest stage, the debate. That was 16, of course. And while he may want a Putin like DOJ approach to any and all of his opponents, whether they're running directly against him or the Republicans next term or wherever it leads, judges are limiting some of the related efforts he's making. Stationing troops all over the place. The new appeals court blocking that. Then there are the ICE agents, their tactics drawing new scrutiny. In Chicago, there's an outcry. Agents posted up outside a church during Sunday Mass while other agents went right after a Marine's parents.
- [06:20]
Maya Wiley
Reports of federal agents near Catholic church during Sunday services. The priest on video urging his parishioners to leave Mass with extreme caution.
- [06:30]
Ari Melber
Churchgoers leery to leave their parents.
- [06:33]
Maya Wiley
The Catholic priest gave an unexpected warning.
- [06:35]
Interviewer/Reporter
To parishioners, urging them to leave cautiously because immigration officers were reportedly in the area.
- [06:40]
Maya Wiley
I think they've been casing the church. The parents of a U.S. marine are being detained by immigration officials.
- [06:46]
Ari Melber
Her family was coming to take her.
- [06:47]
Maya Wiley
And her husband to breakfast on September.
- [06:49]
Interviewer/Reporter
28Th when they were stopped at the gate.
- [06:51]
Maya Wiley
And Steve says ICE arrived.
- [06:53]
Ari Melber
Another weekend of federal law enforcement efforts, with the government vowing there will be more, the government vowing there'll be more. The president admitting it's about the people, not the evidence. And the troops out in the streets, in your churches going after military families, going after basically people who are coming out to sometimes recognize their own rights to speak and dissent. And the chart I showed you shows who the President is going after. Any selective prosecution is wrong. Selective prosecution against so many people shows a pattern, not a one off. Selective prosecution allegedly against the President's own former aide, John Bolton, with the grand jury now paneled, we're told is a reminder to any Republican Wall street exec or other self identified elite who thinks, contrary to all history, that it'll stop here and they won't come for you. Donald Trump is very clear. He has admitted what he's doing. Even if J.D. vance and others understand that long term, if enough people find out and see the risk, there may be very well a larger revolt than they can handle. But this is what's happening and there is a growing opposition to this, even though, remember, we are in a time in America not unlike the McCarthy era, where some of the opposition is even more muted than it would normally be because some people are understandably afraid or getting more quiet or just avoid politics at church and at work. And I'm not here to lecture you about who can do what when people make up their own minds in a democracy. Kind of the whole point about how to involve themselves when and how to stand up if they choose to. But even against that effort at muting at censorship at the fcc, late night agenda, even against all that, we see a wider group of people from conservative podcaster Joe Rogan to MTG recently calling out ice. I'll show you that later tonight. To President Obama, who is careful not to speak out all the time. He's not running a daily politics podcast, but has chosen again this inflection point. He's speaking out again about these problems, what Trump does and what he views as the bias and how it's all covered.
- [09:09]
Ted Danson
If I had sent in the National.
- [09:11]
Ari Melber
Guard into Texas and just said, you know what, a lot of problems in Dallas, you know, a lot of crime there, and I don't care what Governor Abbott says, I'm going to kind of take over law enforcement because I think.
- [09:31]
Ted Danson
Things are out of control.
- [09:32]
Ari Melber
It is mind boggling to me how, oh yeah, Fox News would have responded. Mind boggling. And the president, the former president there speaking in his characteristic calm. But this is a time to, yes, keep your head on straight, to be calm about the facts, but to be serious about understanding what we're facing. This is the crackdown. And it goes from the selective prosecutions to the ICE tactics to a president who in year one is testing how far he can get away with having troops and agents out on a regular basis all over the country in year one. So what do you think he'll do if he gets away with it going into year two, the midterms, let alone year four, whether we ever have peaceful transfers of power in this country? I'm joined by civil rights leader Maya Wiley and Molly Jong Fast, New York Times writer and both MSNBC analysts. Welcome back, Maya. It seems to be a pattern that you can't separate the troops from the selective prosecutions.
- [10:39]
Maya Wiley
I don't even know where to begin on this, but I just have to go back to J.D. vance's lie, because what he said was an out and out lie. And you Called it Ari. And I'm just being plain about it, because we have to start being plain. He knows good and well that the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, that is a Republican that was sitting in that seat because of Donald Trump who refused to bring indictments against James Comey and Attorney General Letitia James because he found insufficient evidence and essentially stepped down. You can't be any clearer than that. Than that. This is not an administration that is following facts, especially given the public reporting about Donald Trump pushing Pam Bondi, pushing her to get a prosecution, and then putting an insurance age as someone who's insurance law, who has to personally hand walk in that indictment herself to get it, because there's so many career prosecutors who clearly don't want their name on the dotted line.
- [11:50]
Ari Melber
Yeah.
- [11:51]
Maya Wiley
So that is just that. That is a matter of public record, which means J.D. vance. J.D. vance knows it's a matter of public record. But let's go back to the National Guard issue, because the other thing we know is that there was one example, just one example. Marimar Martinez says she was hit by an ICE car and then shot multiple times. ICE says, no, she needs to be prosecuted because she was the one who rammed their car. There apparently is body cam footage that her lawyer says shows that she is telling the truth. They are not. And I'm only saying that because we have footage of a Presbyterian pastor, David Black, whose arms are outstretched. And anybody who goes to church, which I'm telling y', all, I do this holding your hands out like this is not an act of attack. And he was not moving towards an ICE agent, and he gets a pepper bullet in the head. This is what's happening in this country, and that is not about public safety. And when we talk about these issues and we talk about tyranny, we are actually seeing it in real time and being told not to believe our lying lies and to listen to lies over facts.
- [13:18]
Ari Melber
Right. And that brings us exactly to the backlash I mentioned, because these things happen in their own way. It can be organic. And, Molly, there are people who say, well, if they saw something and no one else agreed with them, they. They want to say I told you so forever. But, you know, Martin Luther King didn't live a lot in the. I told you. We're talking about church and church activism. He lived a lot in the. Well, I'm glad you're here today. Join us, and let's go forward. And when you're the minority or a small minority, you really have to do that. And so whatever people may Think of Joe Rogan. He has a big platform and he's saying out loud he believed Trump. Now, you might watch and say first mistake, but he believed Trump that the plan was to go after the hardcore criminals who immigrated this country. And to him, that sounded okay. And he's now saying he's paying attention. As I mentioned, some people tune out. He hasn't tuned out. He's looking at what they're doing and he says it's wrong and it's not at all. Just going after foreign immigrant criminals. Take a look.
- [14:20]
Ro Khanna
Let's just talk about the immigration thing.
- [14:22]
Ari Melber
The way it looks is horrific. It looks when you're just arresting people in front of their kids and just normal, regular people that have been here.
- [14:31]
Ro Khanna
For 20 years, that everybody who has a heart can't get along with that. Let's find a way, if they've been productive members of society for 20 years, no criminal record, they work the entire time, they paid taxes, find them a pathway to citizenship.
- [14:47]
Ari Melber
I really thought they were just going to go after the criminals.
- [14:51]
Interviewer/Reporter
Right? No, look, that is a real phenomenon and we're seeing that. And that's. There's a reason that polling for immigration, for a natural, you know, for some path to immigration is higher than it's ever been, because people are watching this and thinking exactly what Joe Rogan is saying. So, and look, there's a sort of 70% in the middle that's not super politically active and they respond to this. And I want to go back to what you said about McCarthy, because I think that's really important. And I always think about that because my Grandfather jailed by McCarthy Howard fast. There was a moment when. When McCarthy overplayed his hand. Right. When he went after the army. And that was the moment that public sentiment changed. And you couldn't have predicted that that was going to be the moment, but that was the moment that unravel whole thing. And so when I think about American history, and I'm really glad you brought Martin Luther King and how we have done this before, this is exactly who we are in America. This is a. We are a country that has had these missteps before.
- [15:53]
Ari Melber
Right. It's like a virus that can come back at you.
- [15:56]
Interviewer/Reporter
Exactly. And so I think, and we've seen again that the American people have turned on this. And I think, and I hope we'll see that again.
- [16:06]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And you mentioned the famous Army McCarthy hearings. At long last, sir. Have you no decency?
- [16:13]
Maya Wiley
Yeah.
- [16:14]
Ari Melber
It's not all lyrics, Maya.
- [16:15]
Maya Wiley
Are you sure?
- [16:17]
Ari Melber
Sometimes we quote a congressional Record.
- [16:19]
Maya Wiley
I think it's mostly lyrics.
- [16:21]
Ari Melber
It is mostly. All right, fact check. It is mostly lyrics. But that wasn't one. Have you no decency? And as you say, that resonated at that time. And it doesn't matter who you go up against. I want to play mtg. Maya, joining the chorus of people who, looking at this type of immigration, are coming back, they're coming back from the get everybody, whatever that means. Especially with these tactics and saying what others used to say. Maybe you need a balanced immigration policy, certainly one that has reality about who people are, who's an actual threat, and how our labor market works. Take a look.
- [16:59]
Maya Wiley
As a realist, I can say we have to do something about labor, and that needs to be a smarter plan than just rounding up every single person and deporting them just like that. Oh, and I'm going to get pushback on that. But it's. I'm just living in reality from here on out. Well, first of all, she has a rural district. She's in a rural district. We've known all along that these mass deportations were going to hurt farmers and others in rural communities that have been relying on people who come to this country to work. But we should also add that it's in a lot of these communities that we are seeing people in uniform in food bank lines. That as we're looking at this shutdown, you know, what is the scramble from the Trump administration right now? It's trying to make sure that troops get paid. So the impacts of their decisions, whether it's on access to healthcare, which is gonna hurt a lot of families, it's gonna hurt a lot of families in rural areas, tariffs, which are hurting a lot of farmers. And even this, even what we're seeing right now in the refusal of this administration to continue to fund high quality food that food banks are getting, we even see people talking about not just that the lines are longer in communities, in rural communities, but that they are not seeing protein in their bags. They've actually had a significant reduction in what they're even seeing. So I'm saying all this because in this kind of universe of attacking rights, attacking freedoms and dismantling government in order to abuse power, there is a lot of daily life harm done to real people, from everything from health care to food and to just being able to ensure that they can run their businesses and survive. And that. That is going to be a critical part of this turning point as well.
- [18:58]
Ari Melber
Yeah, really important point. And you're kind of widening it to. To what the temperature is in these places and reminding people what everyone thinks MTG what, what her district is like. Molly, the last thing I want to show you is we try to get people in here from every perspective, and sometimes they say things and people have a big old debate, and other times you say, oh, they've moved. That has been the organic theme of this segment for whatever reason, because Ty Cobbling defended the President Trump White House as a government lawyer during the early Mueller days. You remember him, by the way.
- [19:29]
Maya Wiley
I certainly do.
- [19:30]
Ari Melber
And there was back and forth then, and who knew you would long for those old innocent days? But Mr. Cobb, who is a former prosecutor and brings, I think, that view to this, certainly since January 6th and now is very concerned and warning about what Donald Trump's doing. And he says it's bad and take him seriously on abusing the military. Here's what he told us.
- [19:52]
Ted Danson
The White House is very serious about.
- [19:53]
Ro Khanna
Using any lever of government that, you know, inflates Trump's sense of his power. It will be difficult to stop his occupation of America.
- [20:03]
Ari Melber
It may go toward his ultimate desire.
- [20:07]
Ro Khanna
Perhaps not in 2026, but in 2028, you know, to ensure that power passes to his chosen successor, as opposed to.
- [20:17]
Ari Melber
The free and fair elections.
- [20:20]
Interviewer/Reporter
Yeah. And that's why people like Liz Cheney and George Conway are so important, because they don't necessarily ideologically line up with the left, but they do in fact believe in the tenets of small d democracy. And I think this is, this is what we're seeing here is like these people are speaking out and there's a reason that only Lindsey Halligan would sign those indictments. Right. There's a reason that you don't see Todd Blanche on there or any of the other career people and even on the right is they know that this is not how we do it in this country.
- [20:53]
Ari Melber
Yeah, really important points. I appreciate both of you kicking us off here. Molly and Maya, let me tell folks what's coming up. We have a Google insider on how we should actually think about tech and what the movies get right and wrong. I think that could be interesting. That's by the end of the hour. Wall street vets are using, using that, that line again. They say Trump always chickens out and he did it again after this kerfuffle on China going into the weekend. But first, the Epstein co conspirator coddling Donald Trump's Epstein nightmare won't go away, partly because they're taking especially good care of the convict you see on your screen. And more Republicans are calling for transparency. I'M going to give you that special report and upcoming a special guest next in 90 seconds.
- [21:40]
Ted Danson
Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:09]
Henry Meds Advertiser
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- [22:15]
Maya Wiley
Since I joined four months ago, I've lost 25 pounds and it has changed my life.
- [22:21]
Henry Meds Advertiser
Henry Med's personalized compounded GLP1 meds shipped to your door. Take back control with treatments designed to reduce appetite. Schedule a free online evaluation with a licensed provider@henrymeds.com audio and get a hundred dollars off your first month. Results may vary. Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you.
- [22:40]
Coop Sleep Goods Advertiser
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- [23:39]
Ari Melber
Starting a new week and it's new problems in Donald Trump's Jeffrey Epstein scandal. And while some could look up and say, gosh, is this because of politics or the media, is the media obsessed with this? In fact, it's because the Trump administration cannot seem to find a way to stop helping the Epstein co conspirator convict Ghislaine Maxwell. This is their doing. And this is how her life in prison is apparently improved under the Trump administration, which, just to remind you, had famously promised they would be tough on this issue against convicted pedophile trafficking and releasing new important details about the Epstein case. Well, they keep failing on each of those accounts. As for whether the media is obsessed, well, this reporting comes from the Rupert Murdoch owned Wall Street Journal, which has been digging through the facts about the unusual transfer of Maxwell to this better Texas prison. Her entire presence there deemed unusual. She was convicted on sex trafficking and then transferred. We showed you this timeline. She originally was in the prison that you're supposed to be in for that type of offense. And it's not the heaviest prison in the world, but it is heavier than the one the Trump folks have now given her. Because current and former inmates sell. Maxwell appeared to receive, quote, unusually favorable treatment, which sparks resentment. That stuff gets noticed in a prison. And then her unexpected arrival led to more frequent lockdowns, the addition of armed guards. Other inmates were confined to their dormitories. Remember, this is still prison. Maxwell got to meet with, quote, several visitors in the federal prison camp's chapel. Now, we don't yet know from this type of reporting who those visitors are, but remember the Trump administration that vowed so much transparency. They have access to that information. They're in charge of the Bureau of Prisons. Now, the timing is suspicious. Maxwell transferred a week after meeting with an individual who, number one, used to be Donald Trump's personal criminal defense attorney. And number two, was apparently rewarded with a top job, the number two job at doj, and went for this unusual prison interview where we got to learn about how much Maxwell apparently wants to say things that benefit Donald Trump. Did you ever hear Mr. Epstein or anybody say that President Trump had done anything inappropriate with masseuses or with anybody in your world?
- [26:05]
Maya Wiley
Absolutely.
- [26:06]
Ari Melber
Never in any context did you ever observe President Trump receive a massage?
- [26:13]
Nick Foster
Never.
- [26:15]
Ari Melber
That's her statement. The United States has not ever deemed her credible. She's a convicted sex offender and she was appealing her case, meaning she still has to stick to a certain story if she's hoping at that time to get anywhere. By the way, her case has not been appealed favorably. But more importantly, when you look at her saying that, you have to stack it against other information. I can't tell you whether that statement by her is provably false or not. I can play for you what she claimed, but I can report for you that the Murdoch owned Journal has reported that Trump is listed named in the Epstein files in some capacity. And we've also seen the birthday card and other evidence that he was close with Epstein. So there's countervailing evidence, the idea that he was not involved in any way. And again, if they release the files, we can all look ourselves and find out how he's mentioned. Meanwhile, survivors and lawmakers are still pushing for transparency. The story remains alive because the Trump administration can't seem to help itself. It continues to help one of the most notorious Epstein related sex traffickers alive in the federal prison system. So what comes next? We have a Democratic lawmaker when we return. Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman where each week one of us reveals mystery guests of the other two. We dive deep with guests that you.
- [27:43]
Ted Danson
Love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer.
- [27:47]
Ari Melber
Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.
- [28:05]
Henry Meds Advertiser
Ever felt defeated by cravings? You're not alone. Henry Meds is here to help support your weight management journey.
- [28:10]
Maya Wiley
Since I joined four months ago, I've lost £25 and it has changed my life.
- [28:16]
Henry Meds Advertiser
Henry meds personalized compounded GLP1 meds shipped to your door. Take back control with treatments designed to reduce appetite. Schedule a free online evaluation with a licensed provider@henrymeds.com audio and get $100 off your first month. Results may vary. Not all patients are eligible. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Consult a healthcare provider to determine if treatment is right for you.
- [28:35]
Coop Sleep Goods Advertiser
Everybody sleeps, but no two people sleep alike. At Coop Sleep Goods, we celebrate the way you sleep differently. We believe everyone deserves a great night's sleep with their own pillow, and the adjustable, customizable Coop pillow makes it easy. Whether you're a side sleeper, a back sleeper, or even a starfish, we've got the perfect pillow for you. Crafted with our innovative memory foam and microfiber fill, our hypoallergenic pillows adjust to you and not the other way around. Just tailor the fill for the perfect fit, add some in, take some out until your pillow's just right for you. See why luxury hotels and spas worldwide feature Coop sleepgoods and why we have tens of thousands of 5 star reviews with our 100 night risk free trial, you've got nothing to lose except those sleepless nights. Get 20% off your first order when you visit coopsleepgoods.com podcastnews that's coopsleepgoods.com PodcastNews.
- [29:32]
Ari Melber
We're joined now by Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna from California, who has been fighting for Epstein transparency. Welcome back.
- [29:38]
Ro Khanna
Thank you, Ari. Thank you for having me.
- [29:41]
Ari Melber
Your reaction to this reporting about the apparent unusual or special treatment for Maxwell?
- [29:47]
Ro Khanna
It's offensive to the survivors. You know, the survivors are at the center of this and they often get forgotten. They were in the front of the steps of the Capitol. They talked about being abused and raped at the age of 13 or 14, about having to go recruit other junior high girls knowing that they would get abused by Maxwell and Epstein. And they found it so outrageous that there was any talk of giving Maxwell lenient treatment given what she had done to those women. And so I just on an emotional level am outraged by this. And I don't understand how this has become a partisan issue. You have survivors were saying that they want justice.
- [30:31]
Ari Melber
The administration doesn't seem to care about the substance, the ethics, as you put it, or a term they throw around a lot in Washington, the quote optics. Because as we reported, they rushed to respond to that unusual interview with this special treatment transfer. Can the Congress do anything about that?
- [30:53]
Ro Khanna
We absolutely can. And the first thing we need to do is to have the full release of the Epstein files. And here's the state of play on that. We have 217 signatures. We need one more signature to force a vote in the House of Representatives. It's an open secret that if we get that vote in the House of Representatives, you will have 50, 60 more Republicans defect because they're not going to vote against the release of the files.
- [31:18]
Ari Melber
What do they call. They call that log rolling or something. Where in the Congress it's like everyone's ducking it and then if it happens, everyone jumps on it.
- [31:26]
Ro Khanna
Exactly. You know that. You know the terminology, but you have. So you. We've got Adelina Grahova, who a few weeks ago wins her election in Arizona. It's not close, 70 to 30. It's a blowout election. And for the past two and a half weeks since September 23rd, the Congress has literally been shut down. We didn't come back to vote on the pay for troops, which is ending on Wednesday. But the president had to rearrange money at the DOD just to pay the troops. Why are we shut down during the Congress? For one simple reason. Mike Johnson knows that the day we have votes, Adelita Grijalova gets sworn in and then we have a 218 signature and we get the vote in the Epstein files. So we're going to get this done.
- [32:10]
Ari Melber
Just. Yeah, just to slow you down, you're saying once, once that's sworn in and you're back in regular order, post, presumably post shutdown, then you all but have the vot.
- [32:20]
Ro Khanna
Once we have votes, whether it's during the shutdown or after the shutdown, that day at Lido Grejalba becomes the 218th signatory. And then seven legislative days after that, we can force a vote in the Congress and we will have the votes on the files. But they want what they're hoping, and they've hoped this time and again when they shut down the Congress during the recesses. They're hoping if they just delay this, maybe this issue goes away.
- [32:46]
Ari Melber
Yeah. And you said. I said log roll and you said seven legislative days, a type of day. So we're both, we both get one strike on jargon, sir. Let me turn your attention to this CBS report, which was pretty astounding from an investigative view. No indication that when the Trump BOP and DOJ went in there when Epstein was first found dead, that they ran fingerprints or DNA tests inside the cell. So that's the evidence response team. They didn't, according to the documents reviewed by cbs, ever run those tests. Is that suspicious? And when we look at this misconduct, I want to be very clear with viewers, there could be mistakes and failures by the then Trump Bureau of Prisons that don't involve Epstein being killed. That's one of the questions under investigation, but could have just involved other failures that they didn't have a lot of interest in getting into. So they didn't really do a thorough probe. That's the implication of cbs. At the same time, as you know, the DOJ then was under Democratic control for four years. The inspector general report, as I understand it, was ultimately finished under the Biden era. And it doesn't seem, from what we can tell that either, either party running the DOJ at the time has been very thorough about this, been, shall I say, interested in whether it ultimately found errors of any kind by the government, which is why we don't usually trust the government to itself investigate itself. Your response on that and specifically on the Biden DOJ part?
- [34:15]
Ro Khanna
Well, there are obviously questions, and I don't think anyone is saying that DOJ under Biden, under Trump or frankly, for decades since these women haven't had justice, has done a good job. That's why people are saying, let's have the release of the files. I mean, the survivors who I've gotten to know now personally have been denied justice from the first time that Jeffrey Epstein got a slap on the wrist plea deal. And they, they've not been consulted by Justice Department lawyers. They are asking for these files to be released.
- [34:46]
Ari Melber
And why is that as compared to other other important crimes that get prosecuted? Do you have a core answer of why?
- [34:54]
Ro Khanna
I think they're rich and powerful people who were involved and they, they think that they basically had one system of justice and didn't get, get care about these women's stories.
- [35:06]
Ari Melber
I mean, that's, you're saying it's, it's as bad as it looks. And what it looks like is what it is. And you've, you've been close to this. Congressman Khan, I appreciate you coming on. We'd love to have you back because we've been covering this story. I appreciate it. We're going to fit in a break. And we come back, Donald Trump failing in that big China threat. Why it matters next. There's a lot happening, including news that relates to the Trump White House. And even amidst the talk of the Mideast peace deal late Friday, Trump also re upped the trade war with China. He did it online as he does many things and the governing impact of this is severe. So he said the US will impose a tariff of 100% on China, which is huge. That's on top of the tariffs already in place, which have had major impacts. These stock markets, which of course are not supposed to be political or partisan, they just said, wow, this is going to affect shipping and what comes into the US and they didn't like it. The Trump post about China actually cost the markets in a single day 2 trillion with a T2 trillion dollars. I can tell you any other, in any other decade, that alone would have been a big news for many days. Here you might just be finding out about it now if you're not a day trader. Economist Paul Krugman said Trump's basically making China great again. And this kind of policy done in such a haphazard way on top of the other tariffs meant we would lose the trade war. It was a huge backlash and Trump immediately felt the need to reverse himself. So on the weekend, when of course, markets in the US Are closed, he wrote, don't worry about China. It'll all be fine. Highly respected. President Xi just had a bad moment. The USA wants to help China, not hurt it. Now, whatever you think of the messaging tariffs are not designed to help the other country. Even Donald Trump admits that. And he revealed when it comes to the looming deadlines, which again, are supposed to be part of his big, well thought out strategic plans to get other countries to give in. Well, now he just wants to calm the markets, the optics or the political problem of the crash. So don't take him literally or seriously.
- [37:19]
Ro Khanna
I think we're going to be fine with China. Look, I have a great relationship with President Xi. For me, you know what November 1st is an eternity. November 1st is an eternity for me because somebody else is right around the corner. For me when I hear November 1st, it's an eternity.
- [37:36]
Ari Melber
A master of spin says November 1st is far away, an eternity. Don't worry about it. The conservative judge report, which tries to boil things down, calls him a chicken and says taco. Trump always chickens out. Taco returns. As for the multi trillion dollar question of where we go from there, well, we will keep reporting on whatever Trump does to the markets. The news tonight is he is backtracking. We're going to finish a break. When we come back, something fun that connects the Jetsons to how to get ready for our AI future. Massive digital changes have clearly upended our politics. Candidates who once sat in formal prepared interviews with reporters they'd known for years will now regularly stop by a homemade podcast that reaches millions and just see what happens. Tech has also made everyone now a potential writer, broadcaster or photographer. From our phones to the Internet, artificial intel has people interacting with what seem like smart robots for a host of things, from information and planning to companionship or even romance. Indeed, that eerie possibility was imagined over a decade ago in her a film about a man who became convinced that he loved an AI assistant who only existed in the cloud and who had a lovely voice of Scarlett Johansson. You know, art has long imagined our potential future. Our view of it often focuses on gadgets and dazzling toys, like so many flying cars in The Jetsons, a 60s cartoon that got some things right. But today feels like we're dealing with a lot more than just spaceships in the Jetsons and this type of futurism. Looking forward so we might understand our near future has been explored in books and movies for a long time. Jarvis, you there?
- [39:42]
Ted Danson
At your service, sir.
- [39:44]
Ari Melber
Engage. Heads up display check. But this is the plan. Get your to Mars.
- [39:49]
Ted Danson
Do you want to know the future?
- [39:51]
Ari Melber
What about the past? Total Recall. Now, as humans, long before there was any type of technology, we know we think in terms of stories, campfire stories, religious stories. And we are a product now of millions of hours of film, TV documentaries, news footage that feeds us concepts from our screens that fill our lives. That's what Nick Foster writes in a new book. It's intriguing, but can it also stifle our own ability to create independent ideas about where we're headed? It's a big question as AI and tech reshape politics, perhaps the coming job market, and then raise fundamental questions about what it even means to be human and whether we want the United States government to do maybe a bit more to protect us or our children or humanity and regulate these powerful tools. Now, the author who's stressing that we need to understand how we think about the future joins me now. Nick Foster is the author of Could, Should, Might. How We Think about the Future. Welcome.
- [41:02]
Nick Foster
Hello. It's nice to be here.
- [41:04]
Ari Melber
Great to have you. So we have all those stories and images in our heads, and they're fun, but you caution us to think a little more originally. What do you mean?
- [41:14]
Nick Foster
Well, yeah, what I really mean is we need to think about the future with more rigor. So I've been a designer for 25 years, working in the future, typically the future future of tech. And no matter who I'm talking to, whether it's other designers or scientists or engineers, when we're talking about the present, everybody's very sort of focused on detail and rigor. But when it comes to talking about the future, we all sort of lose our way. And I feel like that's a problem. We jump straight into ideas and solutions rather than going back a step or two to think about what sort of behaviors we're adopting when we start to think about the future.
- [41:47]
Ari Melber
What's a specific example of that dynamic?
- [41:51]
Nick Foster
Well, to be perfectly honest, you sort of fell into the trap here a little bit, too, which is to grab at things, things from popular media, typically, but not just that. Things like statistics, things like projections and predictions.
- [42:04]
Ari Melber
Things like this was a type of setup that goes thesis antithesis, a little Hegelian. So we show those movies as what you argued against. Like, don't just think Total Recall will become true.
- [42:17]
Nick Foster
Got it. Yeah.
- [42:18]
Ari Melber
And I mean, we thought you'd get that, but go ahead.
- [42:24]
Nick Foster
Sure, I get that.
- [42:26]
Ari Melber
Yeah.
- [42:26]
Nick Foster
I think science fiction and science fiction cinema in particular has played a really strong role in particularly sort of popular culture versions of the future. But what I'm really sort of saying is that's not necessarily just bad. It is one way of thinking that we all sort of fall into. It's a channel of thinking. And I think what I'm trying to do with this book is explore those channels of thinking. And there are other people who fall into other channels of thinking. They fall into, like I said, the sort of numeric projections way of thinking about the future. Other people look at the future as a sort of bunch of scenarios that might play out. We're not quite sure which other people look at the future as a place of fear or dread or things that we want to steer away from. So that's why I wrote this book. It's not a book that's a. A methods book or a book about predictions or tech that I reckon we should bet on. It's about to understand the underpinning patterns.
- [43:14]
Ari Melber
How do you see those paradigms in lawmakers? Because they sometimes are less into tech. Some of them trend older, which is fine, but sometimes they're not native users of the tech. And when we watch these hearings, as we do here in the news, sometimes you get the feeling that they're woefully outmatched by the powerful tech barons. That's before you even get into money and lobbying. And yet these fundamental questions, do we want to guard against humanity? Do we want the government to be involved in protecting, say, how children interact with future tech are important? No.
- [43:45]
Nick Foster
Yeah. I mean, one of the major challenges we're facing is the speed at which change is coming. Not just technological change, societal, political, community change. All these sorts of things are changing underneath us. And it's sort of hard to get a footing for all of us, not just lawmakers and people who are trying to sort of regulate industry. It's hard for us to get a footing. And because a lot of these technologies are digital, they can be rolled out en masse very, very quickly. And the change sort of feels like it's moving even faster than regular laypeople can handle, let alone whether they're too old or too out of touch. And I think that's a real challenge. And I think what we really need to do is to try and find ways to think about the future with more depth and more rigor, because we're all currently living in a sort of accidental time capsule that was planted by our predecessors who didn't think very much about the future either, or weren't able to think in great detail about the future either. So that's one thing I'm calling for, really.
- [44:39]
Ari Melber
And people often think, as mentioned, through comparisons, do you think we should approach AI like the Industrial Revolution? Painful, but all of this good stuff on the other side, more like tobacco or alcohol can be fun, but boy, you don't want to get addicted. Or some other comparison.
- [44:58]
Nick Foster
Well, the reason I've called the book could, should, might don't is because I do think that what we need to do when we think about anything, let's talk about AI, for example. But we do need to think about it does have the potential to open up really interesting, amazing things. Certainly in things like drug discovery or medical diagnoses, we have to choose a lane. So we have to think about what we should do. And that might be an economic driver, it might be a societal driver. We also have to think about what we might do, which is all of the different directions it could do. And we also have to think about where we don't want to go, things that we would like to guard against, which is regulation and territories into which we don't want to stray. So I guess what I'm calling for is sort of depth and balance when talking about and imagining the future, which I just don't see a lot of depending on who the commentator or the tech journalist or the tech leader or the businessman, whenever they're talking about something like AI, they typically fall into one of those channels which I think leads to the sort of unbalanced conversations about the future which we find ourselves surrounded by.
- [45:52]
Ari Melber
Yeah. Nick Foster, thanks so much for joining us. We'll be right back. Reporting on the peace deal out of the Middle East. The 20 surviving hostages taken by Hamas on October 7th are now officially back returning to Israel. There are also celebrations in Gaza. Israeli officials say that about 2,000 agreed upon Palestinian prisoners released back to that territory. President Trump and other leaders presented the sign deal right here at a major gathering in Egypt. New York Times also reports there are many issues still on the table, whether Hamas will disarm, whether the ceasefire will hold, and who would ultimately pay to rebuild Gaza or govern it after the devastation. We wanted to get that update in. The weeknight starts now. Are you curious about the hidden side of everything? Then I have a podcast for you. I'm Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio. Each week we hear from some of the most fascinating scholars and thinkers as we tackle big topics like how whales became the face of environmental activism, how to succeed at failing, and whether public transportation should be free. Go ahead, listen to Freakonomics Radio wherever you get your podcasts.