Trump's Epstein failure haunts his second term

Summary

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The Beat with Ari Melber – Episode Summary

Title: Trump's Epstein Failure Haunts His Second Term
Date: November 20, 2025
Host: Ari Melber (MS NOW)

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode dives into the seismic political fallout after Congress overrode President Donald Trump’s opposition and passed a bill forcing the release of the Epstein files—documents revealing ties and communications between convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein and prominent political figures, including Trump and Steve Bannon. The episode examines the crumbling of Trump’s power base, the bipartisan revolt in Congress, the exposure of new and deeper Epstein–Bannon connections, and considers the lasting damage this controversy inflicts on Trump's second term and the wider MAGA coalition.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Congressional Defiance and the "Epstein Test"

• Ari Melber opens by emphasizing the unprecedented nature of Congress stripping Trump of veto power on the Epstein bill due to overwhelming bipartisan support.
  • Quote [01:00]:
    "Congress forcing him to release the Epstein files… This is an overwhelming rebuke. It strips Donald Trump of the presidential veto power because both parties overruled him… He is not really presidenting when it comes to the Epstein bill." – Ari Melber
• The rare unity of both parties on a controversial bill is painted as a Hamilton-style “loss of the votes” for Trump, demonstrating diminished influence.
• Republicans and Democrats alike saw the political necessity of transparency, further isolating Trump.

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2. The Vote and Immediate Political Aftermath

• Michelle Goldberg (NYT) notes the landslide, nearly unanimous vote and the historic nature of Republicans defying Trump’s pressure.
  • Quote [02:54]:
    "No amount of arm twisting by Donald Trump managed to stop or slow the passage of legislation to release the Epstein files. This has been one of the most destructive things to MAGA." – Michelle Goldberg
• Senate leadership’s quick acquiescence, with even Trump-loyal members reversing course, is highlighted as a signal of his waning power.
  • Quote [03:09]:
    "Today is a day because of the survivors that we can say is the beginning of the end of the Trump presidency." – Ari Melber

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3. Trump’s Floundering Response and Contradictory Messaging

• Melber recounts Trump’s chaotic, contradictory public statements about the Epstein files: calling them a hoax, then demanding investigations, then claiming transparency.
• Podcaster Joe Rogan and others, formerly supportive, expressed incredulity at Trump’s shifting stories.
  • Quote [04:56]:
    "Why do Donald Trump's sentences start with hoax and end with new investigation?... They're not doing [real transparency]." – Ari Melber

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4. MAGA Fractures and the Ro Khanna Wedge

• Goldberg analyzes how Rep. Ro Khanna identified the Epstein transparency issue as a perfect wedge for fracturing Republican unity, exploiting underlying MAGA splits (e.g., over visas, Israel, etc.).
  • Quote [06:33]:
    "It broke in part because I think Ro Khanna so successfully identified this as the perfect wedge issue for the Republican coalition… The Epstein files are uniquely important to Trump's base, but it's also because Trump's power is declining."

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5. New Revelations: The Epstein–Bannon–Trump Connection

• Melber reports on newly released emails showing secretive, intense coordination between Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein in 2018–2019—at the height of legal danger for Epstein and during Bannon's split with Trump.
  • Bannon attempted to help Epstein with reputation rehab, including clandestine meetings (“under the cover of darkness”) and media advice, and produced 15 hours of video for an abortive “documentary.”
  • Quote [12:32]:
    "The new emails do reveal more cooperation, more plotting and secret strategy sessions. Bannon… wanted to help [Epstein] redeem himself from what all these accusers and survivors and evidence has shown him to be." – Ari Melber
• The emails are filled with insider banter, media strategy (“come hither look” vs. “come Hitler look”), and mutual manipulation.
• Epstein appears deeply concerned with media portrayal, attempting damage control over negative depictions, especially Michael Wolff’s best-selling book.
• Internal discussions show Bannon and Epstein realizing their attempt to control the narrative was failing, while Epstein hinted at holding damaging information about Trump.

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6. The Political and Legal Road Ahead

• The DOJ is now compelled to release the files within a month; any attempt by Trump or DOJ head Pam Bondi to withhold information will trigger court battles and public pressure.
  • Quote [37:51] (Andrew Weissmann):
    "The President of the United States today could release everything… and we don't have that commitment. We don't have someone saying we're just going to—as to me, since he can deal with his own privacy interest."
• Andrew Weissmann, former federal prosecutor, notes that any delays or loophole-use by Trump will only prolong and worsen the political damage—a “death by a thousand cuts.”
  • Quote [40:16]:
    "This is death by a thousand cuts… this is going on and on and on… there must be stuff that is even worse than what we've seen if that is the way they're behaving."

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7. Impact on Trump’s Second Term and Political Realignment

• Michael Hirshhorn frames the Epstein files moment as an “inflection point,” urging Democrats to recognize the breakthrough and seize the opportunity as MAGA fractures.
  • Quote [32:01]:
    "We did something that worked… Let's give credit to the Democratic establishment for once… they held the line… Nobody thought they would force Trump to stand down on anything Epstein related, and it happened… This has to be meaningful." – Michael Hirshhorn
• The “Ro Khanna approach” is praised—arguing for principles and transparency, not compromise or appeasement.
  • Quote [33:40]:
    "It's time to be tough and it's time to stand on principle and stop apologizing." – Michael Hirshhorn

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Melber, on Trump’s loss:
  "He is not really presidenting when it comes to the Epstein bill." [01:00]
• Goldberg, on GOP reversal:
  "This is the beginning of the end of the Trump presidency." [03:09]
• Joe Rogan, via Melber, on Trump's contradictions:
  “I heard there’s no files. I heard it’s a hoax. And then all of a sudden he’s going to release the files.” [04:35]
• Melber, on the gravity of the moment:
  “If that’s your kryptonite, that’s a problem." [11:05]
• Melber, reading Epstein–Bannon emails:
  "I'm in New York tonight through Saturday if you want to visit under the cover of darkness." [14:50 approx.]
• Epstein to Bannon, discussing media portrayal:
  “Better than the usual come Hitler look… closer to toy boy [winky face].” [22:15 approx.]
• Weissmann, on slow-rolling the release:
  "I think people are right to worry… Politically… this is death by a thousand cuts."[40:16]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Congressional Rebuke and Overview: [01:00] – [04:49]
• Michelle Goldberg Interview (GOP defection, Trump's declining power): [06:12] – [11:25]
• Release of Newly Revealed Epstein–Bannon Emails: [12:32] – [26:53]
• Michael Hirshhorn Analysis (Strategy, Political Implications): [29:57] – [35:42]
• Andrew Weissmann on Legal Process and Delays: [37:23] – [41:16]

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Conclusion: The Broader Significance

The episode frames the forced release of the Epstein files as a pivotal moment marking the collapse of Trump’s political dominance, the splintering of his coalition, and a significant opportunity for Democratic resurgence. The exposure of new details about Bannon’s secret alliance with Epstein not only furthers public understanding of the scandal but also suggests this crisis is far from resolved—haunting Trump’s legacy and imperiling his current term. Ari Melber ends with a question for listeners on the ethics of the Bannon–Epstein partnership, inviting further public dialogue as the revelations continue to shake American politics.

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Transcript

[Donald Trump]

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to walgr.

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[Michael Hirshhorn]

Sort of.

[Ari Melber]

My cousin Freddie showed up to surprise us. Oh, sounds like a real nice surprise. Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we can make it something really nice but also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.

[Michelle Goldberg]

How about a Keurig for 50% off?

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Bingo savings all season. The holiday road is long. We're with you all the way. WalGregreens offer valid November 26th through December 27th. Exclusions apply.

[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the Beat. I'm Ari Melbourne reporting on the continuing fallout from Donald Trump's waking nightmare. Congress forcing him to release the Epstein files that his administration has been hiding. This is an overwhelming rebuke. It strips Donald Trump of the presidential veto power because both parties overruled him. Where other presidents have vetoed bills they strongly oppose, we've covered that from Bush to Obama. Keep in mind, under the rules, Trump cannot veto this because he lost so badly. He lost that option as well. He is not really presidenting when it comes to the Epstein bill. And that is why what we're also witnessing risks for Donald Trump, a wider contagion for his perceived and actual declining power in Washington. Republicans just saw they can defy him. Democrats found a way to run the Congress instead of the Republican speaker who you see there, like Trump was on the run yesterday, making claims that actually were evaporating in real time, including his claims that the Senate was going to make changes, which they didn't do. Because like Trump, when it comes to the Epstein files, you don't have the votes. That's how Hamilton was memorably scolded by the Founding Fathers in the play. You don't have the votes. You don't have the votes. You're going to need congressional approval and you don't have the votes. Well, this is Donald Trump's Hamilton test. And like Cabinet Battle one, he failed it. Let me show you. Departing from the art, back to real new history, the living history this week, what it looked like when Trump didn't have the votes. Not even one single Republican standing by him in the Senate.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Just Seconds ago, a landslide vote in the House of Representatives. The release of the Epstein files has passed the House. A reckoning over the Epstein files on Capitol Hill.

[Donald Trump]

The Trump presidency as we have known it is over.

[Michelle Goldberg]

This was a nearly unanimous vote. No amount of arm twisting by Donald Trump managed to stop or slow the passage of legislation to release the Epstein files. This has been one of the most destructive things to maga.

[Ari Melber]

Today is a day because of the survivors that we can say is the beginning of the end of the Trump presidency.

[Michelle Goldberg]

We did see Leader Schumer do what we expected him to do do, which was ask for unanimous consent. Senator Thune says he thinks this is going to move fairly quickly through the Senate.

[Ari Melber]

Oh, it moved quickly. Senator Thune avoided the Senate floor. I just showed you our colleague Lawrence o' Donnell's reporting on this, how he views it as the end of the Trump presidency at least as we knew it for these first 300 or so days. He also pointed out how John Thune, who again runs the Senate, wasn't even on the floor when the Democrats showed their power. Chuck Schumer was the one saying they had a unanimous resolution. Devastating loss. Trump spent most of the year trying to block the file's release from the DOJ's now discredited two page memo about clients and blackmail from Pam Bondi to Trump's failed effort to trick his own MAGA backers that remember this, these little binders that maybe they had already released the material that was back in February. The binders were not full of anything, if you remember the old Romney reference. They were not full of new documents and it didn't work. Trying to trick the MAGA faithful then even Trump loyalists could see the old binders were not the new Epstein files. Today, influential podcaster Joe Rogan, who had hosted a pretty warm lengthy Trump interview in the campaign homestretch, is now concisely summarizing Trump's bizarre self contradicting claims amidst his loss and Epstein crash out. I heard there's no files. I heard it's a, a hoax. And then all of a sudden he's going to release the files.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Well, I thought there was no files, man.

[Ari Melber]

He wants an investigation.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Now listen, like, what is going on?

[Ari Melber]

What is going on? Why doesn't it make any sense? Why do Donald Trump's sentences start with hoax and end with new investigation. Start with don't release the files, it's a hoax, put it away. Mike Johnson said it'd be reckless to do it. And the sentence ends with them claiming they're going to do it, which again, they're not doing because as I've told you, you don't need a whole bill. If you were actually for transparency, you could release them tonight or at least start the process. They're not doing that. And so tonight we have a lot of coverage for you on this. Last night we went through this methodically. Tonight, I have a very special guest I'm about to go to. But one more programming note. We have some of the Epstein files. We have the emails that according to legal experts in our reporting, the DOJ would also have they haven't released it yet, so can't say for sure. And I have new revelations that are bad. It's the only way to really fairly put it for both Donald Trump and Steve Bannon. That is our special report and it's coming up tonight. And I'm telling you, it's part of the Epstein file. So we're going to go through those parts and emails about their secret alliance, which is now exposed. That's coming up. But first, our leadoff guest on this story is someone who's been writing about it and recording independently on it for a long time without fear or favor, Michelle Goldberg, the New York Times columnist, Ms. Now analyst, welcome.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

We, you and I, our team and the nation, some of whom watch this program. We've all talked about this for a while. I'm curious what you think about how the dam broke, how quickly it broke and how many Republicans who had to reverse themselves did so that something was more fearful to them than Donald Trump's wrath.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Well, I mean, it broke in part because I think Ro Khanna so successfully identified this as the perfect wedge issue for the Republican coalition. It broke because you had these four Republicans who were willing to stand up to Trump's pressure. And then I think the reason that they were able to successfully stand up to Trump's pressure because usually when Trump turns on a Republican, we've seen this with Jeff Flake. You saw this with Bob Good, who was the former head of the House Freedom Caucus that Donald Trump supported a primary challenge against. You saw this with his own vice president, Mike Pence, who he drove out of politics. You know, usually when he turns on a republic, a Republican, the party follows him. And in this case, he wasn't able to do it.

[Ari Melber]

Right.

[Michelle Goldberg]

He tried to excommunicate Marjorie Taylor Greene. He tried to excommunicate Massie. He wrote really vicious things about Massey's late wife and his new wife. And yet it didn't work. And I think there's a couple of reasons. I mean, part of it is just because the Epstein files are uniquely important to Trump's base, but it's also because Trump's power is declining. I don't think that this happens if Trump's approval rating is in the 50s instead of in the 30s. And so. And you've seen a bunch of moments up till now where the base has gotten restive around things like HB1, H1B visas and other things, you know, the split in the party over Israel. So there's already these kind of fissures in MAGA that this vote was able to really widen.

[Ari Melber]

Donald Trump had to pretend that he agrees with the Democrats. We've covered him a long time. He doesn't do that very often. Right. And I want to show. Because now he's lying about it. I say that with all due diligence and respect, but these are lies. Him and Johnson were publicly doing this. And so we saw Joe Rogan and others don't like it being lied to this way. Let's just look at the history up until this reversal this week.

[Donald Trump]

So this is a Democrat hoax that never ends.

[Ari Melber]

They're forcing a political show vote on the Epstein files. This is a political exercise.

[Donald Trump]

It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net.

[Ari Melber]

He had nothing to do with it. President Trump has clean hands. He's not worried about it.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I don't want to talk about it. Because fake news, the discharge petition, is.

[Ari Melber]

Not only reckless, it is also a totally moot point.

[Donald Trump]

They could do whatever they want. We'll give them everything.

[Ari Melber]

Sure.

[Donald Trump]

I would let the, Let the Senate look at it, let anybody look at it, but don't talk about it too much.

[Ari Melber]

Go ahead.

[Michelle Goldberg]

I mean, well, what's interesting is that Donald Trump actually usually has this kind of frankness. You know, he's not an honest person, but he does say what is, what's on his mind, typically. Right. He blurts. And you could think about that one moment in Nevada when he said something like, you know, I don't care about you. I just want your votes. Right. But he hasn't mostly, mostly has not been like that on the Epstein files. He's been cagey. He's been, you know, kind of duplicitous. That's why you see someone like Rogan, who usually likes Donald Trump's, you know, kind of quote unquote, straight talk, seeing him suddenly as just a normal politician. And I think he had look, he had no choice but to say that he approved of this vote because otherwise it was going to be this humiliating rebuke. And so he was able to avoid the rebuke, but he can't avoid, I think, both the, his diminished power and also that this fight is obviously not over. I mean, I would suspect, and I don't think we know this yet, I would assume that because Donald Trump recently announced an investigation into, or he recently ordered the Justice Department to investigate Democrats ties to Jeffrey Epstein, that they might try to use that as a pretext for holding some of these files back. You know, we can't release them.

[Ari Melber]

Right. And that could end up, and that could end up in court where the congressional lawyers would say, well, Pam Bondi wrote more, more formally than Trump did. She wrote that there's nothing left to investigate. That was her infamous memo.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Correct? Right. But I, you know, would they. Pam Bondi was asked at a press conference whether this means that she will release the files. And she was a little bit cagey about it. So I don't know if this is, you know, if we actually get the revelations that so many people are desperate for, at least if we get them, you know, anytime soon. But again, the demonstration that Trump, who sort of had this astonishing comeback and seemed to have these political superpowers, really is a political mortal, I think changes the whole trajectory of his second term.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, a mortal or an unusual politician who's apparent kryptonite. Are the files around one of the most heinous sex traffickers opposed by liberals and the MAGA base? If that's your kryptonite, that's a problem. Right. And so that's sort of what's going on here. Michelle Goldberg for the New York Times, our leadoff guest on a big news night. Thanks for being here.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Coming up, we turn to my special report. We have some of the Epstein files. I've got the emails. They tie Epstein closer to Bannon and Trump than we knew. This is new stuff. My new breakdown for you in 90 seconds. Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just $8 only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.

[Walgreens Announcer]

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[Ari Melber]

Congress voted to force Trump to release the Epstein files. That includes Epstein's documents, communications, and those of other individuals referenced in connection with his crimes. That applies to all Epstein emails that the government has. Those files, as we've reported, are likely to overlap with newly released Epstein emails that Congress released last week. Any competent investigation would of course, pursue all of Epstein's emails. That's one of the first things prosecutors do long before they charge and arrest someone. So in other words, let me put it very clearly, some Epstein files are already out right now. The 20,000 emails that Congress released last week drove headlines about Trump and many others, but there are also so many thousands, it will take longer for a full independent accounting. Congress, as you saw, focused on some review and put out some Trump stuff. Then they put out more. There wasn't a big congressional report. This wasn't like the Jan6 probe. You kind of, we all witnessed it in real time. It all just sort of flooded out and then everybody's been making sense of it. So right now our new special report focuses on the newly revealed emails, specifically between Epstein, the deceased sex trafficker, and one of the most important people in Donald Trump's orbit, which matters now, top Trump campaign and White House Fed Steve Bannon, the firebrand who, remember, chaired Trump's 2016 campaign in the closing strategy when he won. You can see him there back in the day, served in the White House, ultimately went to prison as punishment for refusing to cooperate with evidence requests for material about Trump, which is really striking. Bannon went to prison over secrecy, withholding Trump related information from Congress, only to now watch Congress get all this evidence on him. Now, there were public links between these two men. It is not that the emails are the first ever public connective tissue, but the new emails do reveal more cooperation, more plotting and secret strategy sessions. And so what we can do right now is something that journalists usually cannot do. Sometimes you get a one sided leak or you get a handful of emails, or in campaigns you get what they call oppo. And you have to be really careful to go through it and figure out what was the other side of that email and who can you get to talk here. We now have hundreds of newly revealed messages these two people exchanged in 2018 and 2019. Now, Bannon has not been accused of any kind of criminal wrongdoing. Related to Epstein, although he was, as I mentioned, convicted of a different crime and has been basically arrested prior. On a whole other issue I'm not going to get into, but no one is saying, to be clear, that he's been accused of an Epstein sex crime. But during a period when Epstein was facing more heat than ever, Bannon got even closer with him and they hid this potentially embarrassing alliance. That's their view. Epstein lived in a grand townhouse near Central Park. The two men knew Epstein was so politically toxic and embarrassing then that they actually furtively hid Bannon's arrival. Epstein emailing, I'm in New York tonight through Saturday if you want to visit under the COVID of darkness. Now, that may sound like dramatic rhetoric, but it wasn't drama. Bannon got the drift and asked about, quote, access. That's not the front door. He even cited what he believed was 247 surveillance on Epstein. Then Epstein offered a hidden rear entrance where someone would let Bannon in. Those messages matching Bannon's phone number, according to Guardian reporting, when his name is not technically listed in those. Now, Bannon emailed about secretly trying to help Epstein redeem his reputation. Think about how some people are in trouble just for bantering with him or getting benefits from him at some broad level totally unrelated to, say, his island here. Bannon is aware of how much trouble Epstein is in and how much criticism there is of his past conduct, and he wants to help him. When Epstein recounts how he writes in one of these new emails, Christians he met with feel the media portraying him as beyond redemption was two EPs seem deeply troubling and offensive. And in response, we must counter the rapist who traffics in female children to be raped by the world's most powerful richest men as kind of a storyline. If you read the email, the way he's putting it, a man who, quote, can't be redeemed. He adds, you're a lot of things which we will show, but you are not that why is one of Trump's top aides and they had a falling out that I'll get to telling Epstein in no uncertain all caps terms, you're not that guy accusers. And a lot of evidence certainly suggests otherwise. And I want you to note here how Bannon speaks of them on a team, that they are going to do this together and show Epstein's, quote, better side, if you will, quote unquote or just better and figuratively. This went beyond emailing ideas. They hadn't made 15 hours of video of Epstein for what he called a documentary and this was in a key period, months leading up to what we now know was his arrest and then death. No movie has come out. There is a 2021 trailer for something called the Monsters. That's the linkage I mentioned that we knew some of this, but now we see behind the scenes how Bannon was not, you know, just making a movie or an interview, but wanted to help him redeem himself from what all these accusers and survivors and evidence has shown him to be the monsters of some kind of catchy title. It shows them talking about accountability movements that target Epstein. Like Time's up.

[Donald Trump]

The future is for the way women think. The way women think, that's correct. Is that not a sop because of, of all the depravity you've done against young women and your, your new sop is that they're, they're women thinking is the future. No, I've been, I've always believed that.

[Ari Melber]

Women would be in fact be able to take over. I'm a firm believer and supporter of Time's Up. He's a supporter of Time's Up. He claims there many parties may now be extra interested in that video series or evidence. Bannon says he will release a film early next year. Epstein would also advise Bannon on his own message and media. During a period when Bannon had left the White House on bad terms with Trump, he was trying to burnish his voice as some kind of global populist.

[Donald Trump]

Number one. With populism, I think you're going to have people with much more control of their sovereignty and their citizenship.

[Ari Melber]

Okay.

[Donald Trump]

And I think in nationalism, what you're going to have is a collection of robust nations.

[Ari Melber]

The emails do not reveal whether Bannon could see the irony, some might say hypocrisy, of tapping one of the nation's most notorious coddled rich elites to advise him on the media around his so called populism for the Everyman. Now, much of Epstein's fortune remains a suspicious mystery. Indeed, we've talked to lawmakers who want to dig even deeper into his accounts and transfers and how he got his money and why JP Morgan didn't issue the required suspicious activity reports until after his death. But we do know he frequently pitched himself as a business and tax expert. And we saw that in these new emails, newly revealed, telling Bannon to respond to the tax cut criticism of Trump's plans by rebutting critics who say 83% goes to the rich. That's misleading. He wrote, telling Bannon, you gotta talk up cash back, pension funds up. And that while giving corporate breaks is perceived as giving to someone else, wage inflation can't be the first focus. Now, while those emails almost seem to unload some dry economic talking points, some other emails I'm about to read to you implicate Trump and have a gossipy, almost sort of cartoonishly sinister tone. Except that we know how much serious bad stuff was going down. And Epstein seemed to use that type of banter with many. And there was plenty of media advice. In August 2018, Epstein says he changed his travel plan so he could watch Bannon on tv, suggesting he already knew that this TV interview was coming up. We now see in the newly revealed emails that Jeffrey Epstein tells Bannon, I took off early so I could land in time to watch. With a jet. You control your schedule. And then he asks, all good. The records show Epstein was watching Bannon's interview with me on MSNBC at the time we taped at his D.C. office. The newly revealed emails show these two commiserated on how it went. So here, this was seven years ago, Bannon saying that his team, the Bannon team, quote, loved it. I was too focused. He asked, how did it come across? Because he wanted the view of this sex trafficker. Epstein replies, based on the comments, couldn't be better. Adding, Last 10 minutes more. The real you. Apparently, Epstein felt credible telling Bannon that he really knew the real him. As for that final portion they were discussing in these newly revealed emails, here's a little bit of it.

[Donald Trump]

I think you're going to see a complete civil war in the Democratic Party and it's going to clear the path toward Donald Trump in 2020. The illegal immigration is nothing more than to try to suppress the wages of working class blacks and Hispanics. These guys are cranks. Nobody takes them seriously. Except the main. It's MSNBC's camera and CNN's camera gives them a platform. If you didn't pay attention to them.

[Ari Melber]

They would, I'm ready to move on. But when you say that about the press, are you suggesting we shouldn't cover this killing and this second degree murder trial? Emails show the men also focused on Bannon's appearance in that interview, Epstein writing, you looked so clean cut next to him. I thought I turned on the figure skating channel by accident. Bannon replies, it was his come hither look. And Jeffrey Epstein then replies in this newly exposed email, better than the usual come Hitler look. Bannon appeared to take that as a negative replying. Ouch. The two continued in that kind of banter. Bannon referred to the channel here. And again, we just are reporting the news, so I'm not weighing in. But he says it's the soy boy network and that he wanted to be clean, not sloppy. Epstein replied, closer to toy boy winky face. Now, Bannon may have been referring to how Donald Trump publicly knocked him as, quote, sloppy Steve during their falling out earlier this year. Excuse me, earlier that year, I should say Bannon's appearance and dress has come up in public more than most operatives. The way he wears his clothes and his demeanor. We're not making a point of that. I'm just telling you what they emailed about. Epstein was in on all kinds of references. He talked about Trump figures that Bannon might see, referring to billionaire Trump supporter Peter Thiel being in town. Bannon should take no heat re me not worth it for the moment, he advised. And in the email to journalist Michael Wolfe, Epstein talks about seeing Bannon in London, saying he seemed paranoid about any reporters see me with him. My guess is he's working hard on his relationship with Trump, who he sees as newly ascendant. And being seen with me may and it's hard to get the exact implication here, but seem would affect that. And then he writes Bannon's media tour scene with an eye toward an audience of one. He talks about Bannon's right wing meetings in France and says these guys seemed like idiots. He goes on to say Bannon, surrounded by his own thuggish looking security people and wacky blogger advisors, thrives precisely because the world of populism is so unprofessional, if not farcical. That is Jeffrey Epstein's dead hand in email, trashing the guy who's his supposed ally, and gives you another window into how these people all think they're conning each other. Whether Mr. Bannon has noticed or found out that that's his view, we don't know. But as I mentioned, the idea of having Jeffrey Epstein be your populist advisor was odd to begin with. The emails show Epstein emailed a lot with author Michael Wolf. That's gotten a lot of attention in certain quarters, which is part of the media strategy he was plotting with Bannon. But let me show you something else as part of our report. There's an email that has not actually gotten much attention and understandably, like I said, There's 20,000 of these. But look at what happens. You're kind of going inside in real time when Epstein learns that all of his fancy talk media outreach to Wolf was on a key issue for him, a failure. And Maybe hurt Bannon too. He writes to Bannon, quote, I've now seen some of Wolf's book mentions me and underage prostitutes. Let me repeat that. That's the thing they were working to quiet down, minimize or lie about. Mentions me. Epstein writes, and underage prostitutes. You as the man behind and in front of the curtain. Lots of Steve quotes. Lots. Bannon appears to see the problem, replying, ugh, anything awful. Wish he hadn't done that. Why are you mentioned at all? You rarely get this kind of view. There's no public bluster or spin here. We just see two self styled strategists admitting their whole media outreach strategy failed. This was Epstein's main vulnerability. Underage sex crimes boosted to new visibility in a book that spent about two months atop the best seller list. In a period of Trump mania in America, there were many people in politics and beyond who were reading about Epstein for the first time in that context because of the book. Epstein then replied to Bannon's question, noting, Wolf wrote about the Palm beach house purchase and how Epstein and Trump may have had a fight about that, saying, don't reach out to Michael. Well, if he meant Michael Wolff, it's a little late for that. The book is f. Epstein also detailed money laundering allegations against Trump to Wolf, who that's the author now says Epstein has also worried that his whole original Florida probe, where he ultimately got a sweetheart deal but was the first legal problem that set in motion these events. Wolf says Epstein seemed to have the fear, paranoia or belief that it came from Donald Trump reporting him to the cops as payback. Dropping a dime. To be clear, that's a theory that could explain Epstein's anger at Trump. If that's his belief, there's no public corroboration of it, so it may not be at all true. But Wolf says that's what Epstein believed, which fueled an anger that you can see across these emails. And if you care about the truth, you do have to look at whether someone is so angry that it might change how accurate they are. But it was on display in Epstein's claims that more than the feds or Mueller was a big deal that year, he, Epstein was the one able to take Trump down. Epstein had faced a lot of legal heat. But by 2019, Epstein and his lawyers, who were some of the highest priced top lawyers you could get, and I've told you he had them from both parties, they all could see things were at a new level. In fact, just one week before Epstein's 2019 arrest, as he pondered his own supposed leverage over President Trump, who oversaw the DOJ that he knew was probably closing in, he was thinking about it. And even though he trashed Bannon, as I showed you, and his unprofessional populism and his wacky bloggers and his weird security, again, I'm paraphrasing what Epstein said, of all people. Then a week out, who did this sex trafficker reach out to Donald Trump's guy, Steve Bannon, to talk about Trump. And he wrote, quote, now you can understand why Trump wakes up in the middle of the night sweating when he hears you and I are friends. It's quite a claim. And if it had come out only back then, it might have sounded like some possibly overblown assertion by a paranoid conman sex trafficker to his political buddy, who was something of more of an outcast at the time. Something many might just dismiss if you care about assessing the facts. But here we are, a long seven years later. Donald Trump's many, many efforts, now failed efforts to hide the Epstein evidence, puts that secret claim in at least a different light. Epstein claimed in private, in a message he didn't know would ever be on tv, that Donald Trump was more nervous about this than anything else. And now, for all these years later, that is pretty much how Donald Trump has been acting in public. Perhaps it is fitting that we only know about that claim because some of these Epstein files are already starting to come out. As we report on new emails showing the Steve Bannon, Jeffrey Epstein alliance and Trump's wider cratering, I'm joined by Michael Hirshhorn. He is a filmmaker, a producer, a media extraordinaire, and has done a lot of writing about strategies for effective ways to fight Donald Trump. Welcome.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

First, your response to the report there.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Well, it's mind blowing, and I'm still sort of trying to wrap my head around it. Cause there's so much there, and it's so dense and it's so fictional. It's almost like they're playing the roles of themselves. And I think the biggest thing I would say is that it's so decadent. And Bannon has always struck me as somebody who, like, you know, is in it kind of for the game of it. And he's kind of like Epstein as well, if you go back over his history. So you have these two guys that are basically in a David Mamet play, kind of playing each other, winding each other up and sort of acting themselves to the point where none of it really makes any sense anymore. Right. And it's also pretty mediocre. Like, these are not brilliant people. These are people playing above the level that really they deserve to be playing at.

[Ari Melber]

Well, and as a report shows, there's been a robust debate about a lot of the folks who dealt with Epstein and Michael Wolfe. And he at one point, point held himself out as advising Epstein on getting leverage over a candidate happened to be Trump. But doing that is a whole wider debate. But their media strategy also failed.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Right. The whole thing made no sense. And the idea that Bannon was truly going to Epstein for real advice on how to deal with the media, this guy who had already been convicted of numerous horrific crimes is laughable. And I have to think Bannon is smart enough to realize it's laughable and that he's playing a game.

[Ari Melber]

Right. The, the overall dynamic right now is that Trump has done a ton of things that have made him less popular. Had he done a different type of first year, who knows? Here's the overall net he began in January, fresh off comeback reelection up 6. And now I think we have this. This is C2. That's up 6, down 22 now.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

I mean, it's amazing and I really hope that people on the Democratic liberal side are heartened by this and understand that we've hit an inflection point and that things are changing and we need to start acting differently. Right. We're not losing anymore. We did something that worked closely walking being. Let's give credit to the Democratic establishment for once, right. That they, that they held the line. They nobody thought that they would force Trump to stand down on anything Epstein related. And it happened like that. It was incredible. It happened so fast that it's head snapping. And this has to be meaningful, right? There has to be something we can draw from this about how we should be acting going forward. And I'm talking about Democrats in the world, I'm talking about Democrats in Congress. Level of self flagellation that's been going on for the last six to nine months that maybe we can put a pause on for the moment and start thinking in a more positive way how we can take advantage of what's a really fundamental breach in maga.

[Ari Melber]

Trump says he'll work with you if you do everything that he demands. Democrats like Joe Manchin and others sometimes say they'll work with you if they go halfway or more towards Republicans. Ro Khanna and these folks seems like the first time where they said, no, we want transparency. You come to us. And by yesterday they had every Republican senator following their lead. What does that tell You.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

And so fast, like it was a matter of days. And even going back to late last week, I think Senator Barrasso was saying, we're not even going to bring this up in the Senate. Right. We're not bringing up anything related to Epstein and DOJ for a vote. Don't even think about it. And then by this week, it's all over and they've caved in and it's veto proof and Trump has to sign it. And that's extraordinary. And I think it's a lesson that the Ro Khanna approach, which I view as distinct from ideology. Right. It's not that you have to be left wing, but stop doing what this one podcast that I really like says. Stop being a pick me politician. Stop being like, I'm gonna be nice. I'm gonna raise my hand, I'm gonna sit in the front row and hope that you'll be nice to me and hope that you'll choose me. It's time to be tough and it's time to stand on principle and stop apologizing.

[Ari Melber]

And some of it's political strategy in real life, you disagree or attack someone for what you don't like about them. And there's logic to that. In politics, especially when you're in the minority, you have to attack someone for things that they're vulnerable on with their base or not just, oh, some liberals think, some Republicans are mean. Well, a lot of the MAGA base doesn't find that to be vulnerable.

[Michael Hirshhorn]

Right. And I think what's interesting here is there's a term called diagonal politics, which means that traditional alliances start getting mixed up. And what's happening right now is there's a lot of stuff related to MAGA that MAGA true believers are genuinely upset about. Right. And where they come from is they're a bit conspiracy addled. But just because you're a conspiracy addled doesn't mean there isn't a conspiracy. And it turns out there's an unbelievable conspiracy. And this is a generational opportunity for people in the progressive wing to pick off MAGA true believers.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, Michael, thank you. Great, great points. We're back next with Andrew Eisman.

[Donald Trump]

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[Ari Melber]

Trump lost the Epstein battle. The DOJ will be ordered to release under law all these Epstein files within one month. That means if Donald Trump does what he said and signs tonight, the deadline becomes December 19th. Days could move here or there. All told, we are told there's over 300 gigabytes worth of material and the bill basically tries to be responsible while asking for everything it does. Note the Justice Department could withhold some material that jeopardizes an active investigation or ongoing prosecution, privacy concerns. And remember, that would mean, for example, that there are certain things you would remove and other things that would come out. A rampant Watergate style effort, to name one loophole and not give up anything is going to run into the opposition of the entire bipartisan group in Congress that Trump just saw himself defeated by. But there are people concerned. There must be no funny business from Donald Trump now.

[Michelle Goldberg]

Where does this go from here? The question will remain, will the Department of Justice release all the information or will this continue after this vote today be a cover up?

[Ari Melber]

Andrew Weissman has dealt with exactly these scenarios. He has been, of course, a federal prosecutor, including in the Mueller probe, was FBI general counsel, which, Andrew, if I can summarize, means you have been someone using legal tools and subpoenas to get information from people who also have lawyers on the other side trying to fight. You know how that looks. And sometimes I imagine at the FBI you made what you thought were honest arguments about not giving over everything. How will this work?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Well, I think people are right to worry about whether Pam Bondi and the President have some trick up their sleeve, to put it bluntly. And the reason I think it's fair to be cynical, and I hope I'm wrong, is that the President of the United States today could release everything, you could say, every single document, every single text, every single email, every single photograph of me. Donald Trump will be released. And we don't have that commitment. We don't have someone saying we're just going to as to me, since he can deal with his own privacy interest.

[Ari Melber]

He'S functionally against it. So if the DOJ is not complying, they blow through the deadline and you're the congressional counsel. What do you do?

[Andrew Weissmann]

Well, the thing is they, they could say, the DOJ could say, well, we're not doing it because of privacy concerns and we're withholding a lot of material. We're not doing it because there's an ongoing investigation put aside that Pam Bondi just months ago closed everything saying there was no investigation, nothing to see here. What would have to happen is they would to go to court and the Department of Justice and Donald Trump knows that takes a lot of time to do that, but that is the only way you can really force them to do it. And I think the other way, though, is the sort of what we're seeing now, which is the public pressure. And I think that, you know, if you're Marjorie Taylor Greene, if you're Chuck Schumer, if you're in the Senator of the House, I think the question for Pam Bondi is, is everything that refers to Donald Trump going to released or not? And if it. If it is, why not just release it now?

[Ari Melber]

And if they go to court, as you say, in other skirmishes, it can take a long time, but that would be very public, active events, which not only do a lot of these politicians, including Republic, some Republicans, care about, but it's the type of thing that journalists cover. They're in court, they're hiding it, they're arguing against it. They can name whatever loophole they want. But it would seem that that would prolong the problem that Trump faces, which is that this is haunting his term, it's draining his agenda, and it's splitting his party against him.

[Andrew Weissmann]

Absolutely. You know, politically, and I'm not a political analyst, but it seems to me this is death by a thousand cuts. You normally would say just pull the band aid off and have one bad day of news or, you know, a few days. But this is going on and on and on, and it obviously leads me, and I'm sure many other people say there must be stuff that is even worse than what we've seen if that is the way they're behaving, because they could just release it today. And remember, what we have seen is we have seen texts from Jeffrey Epstein saying that Donald Trump, in spite of what he has claimed in the past, knew about the girls. Now, we don't know if that's true or not, but you have the actual heart of the conspiracy saying he knew. And there's lots of corroborating evidence there. And so one way you would try to clear your name if there was nothing there would be to get everything out. That is what an innocent person would do.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, it's really striking. And I think that it's very different from normal skirmishes. I mean, lawyers deal with this all the time. It's not necessarily a case of this intrigue. But then it takes time here. Time is not on the President's side. If he wants to waste six months on this and show in court that he's still against release, then, yeah, he'll have a raid against him. What you saw yesterday, and it, again, further undercuts the idea that he's in charge of anything. He wasn't in charge of the Congress. He wasn't in charge of what the speaker vote was and he's got waning approval. So my, what a difference a couple weeks makes. Andrew, thank you for staying up with us. We appreciate it. We'll be right back. The Epstein story is bigger than law and politics. It involves that and important political questions about the decline of Donald Trump in this term and also across the culture. A lot of jokes. I mean, tomorrow we might know everything he and his pervert buddies did. Meaning it's Epstein Rockin Eve. Stay up, stay up for a ball drop you're gonna wanna miss. After the vote was passed, they were to release the Epstein files. White smoke emerged from the Oval Office chimney because Trump started burning them. If anyone thinks he's going to release all the Epstein files, I've got a beautiful east wing of the White House to sell you. You believe some of the comics. Where there's smoke, there's burning Epstein files. We'll be right back. Finally tonight, a question for you, our viewers. We did a special report drawing on the documentary evidence, the new expose Epstein emails which showed how Trump longtime advisor and still ally Steve Bannon worked so closely with Jeffrey Epstein. Our question to you, was that wrong? You can tell me your thoughts on that at rmelber. On social media we still have these accounts up on all of those different platforms. If you use any of those, you can always connect with me [e-mail] Was it wrong? As these Epstein tentacles are exposed to across so many different individuals in our politics and public life that does it for us.

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