Trump's ICE Tactics Draw Backlash: Ari Melber's Legal Report on Agents Causing Danger

Summary

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The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump’s ICE Tactics Draw Backlash – Ari Melber’s Legal Report on Agents Causing Danger
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Ari Melber (MSNBC)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the growing controversy and legal concerns surrounding President Trump’s use of federal law enforcement agencies, particularly ICE, as tools for enforcing sweeping immigration crackdowns and political retribution. Ari Melber and guests examine the implications of these tactics for civil liberties, the rule of law, public safety, and democracy. The episode also explores dissent within conservative circles, the weaponization of the Justice Department, crucial Supreme Court hearings on voting rights, a surge of intra-party debate among Democrats about Senate leadership, and reactions from notable figures like Joe Rogan.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Justice Department and ICE Tactics: Escalation and Backlash

[01:05–06:59]

• Politicization of Justice: Ari Melber opens by detailing how the Trump administration is pushing the Justice Department towards targeting political opponents, not strictly following facts or law.

  “We’re covering the president going after the Justice Department and trying to turn it inside out…a problem from a rule of law perspective.” — Ari Melber [01:05]

• Targeted Enforcement in ‘Hostile’ Cities: Trump, with the support of FBI Director Patel and Attorney General Bondi, is focusing law enforcement surges and threats of prosecution on cities or states with Democratic leaders—recently, Illinois is cited as an example, and threats about international sporting events (like the Olympics in L.A.) are floated as leverage.

• ICE Tactics in Chicago: Recent law enforcement actions in Chicago involved dangerous car chases, smoke grenades, and tear gas. Notably, a white SUV driven by agents intentionally collides with another car, violating standard police protocols, and bystanders—including those merely documenting the events—get caught up in the crackdown.

• Suppression of Dissent: Ari references a striking example where in Oregon, a woman playing the Ghostbusters theme on a clarinet outside an ICE facility was arrested and “tackled.”

  “A musical instrument falling to the side while this woman is manhandled…federal officers were the source of danger, not there to fix it.” — Ari Melber [06:09]

• Congressional Response: Speaker Johnson denies that law enforcement has crossed a line and rejects calls for oversight. Melber notes that even major MAGA voices (Joe Rogan) are now publicly criticizing Trump’s ICE tactics.

2. Legal Experts Weigh In: Rule of Law and Chilling Dissent

Guests:

• Leslie Caldwell (Former DOJ Criminal Division Head)

• Melissa Murray (NYU Law Professor, MSNBC Analyst)
  [06:09–14:01]

• Suppression of First Amendment Rights:

  “This goes beyond simply enforcing federal immigration laws. It’s creating public safety problems…it’s chilling dissent…You’re being manhandled just for trying to document it.” — Melissa Murray [06:09]

• Dangerous Precedents: Both Caldwell and Murray emphasize that Trump’s DOJ is acting in unprecedented ways—“the normal process gets turned on its head so prosecution comes before the case.” The Adams deal in NYC is cited as an overt attempt at political quid pro quo.

  “Nothing like what we see now has ever gone on…case against the Mayor was dismissed in hopes that he would support the President’s political agenda.” — Leslie Caldwell [08:34]

• Weaponization of DOJ:

  “This is a big meltdown of the process…the whole Justice Department is being turned into a weapon against certain people.” — Leslie Caldwell [09:19]

• National Security Risks: Jack Smith (Special Counsel) is referenced as warning about the purge of career national security staff and uninvestigated classified communications, which is making America less safe.

  “If you think getting rid of the people who know most about national security is going to make our country safer, you do not know anything about national security.” — Leslie Caldwell quoting Jack Smith [12:07]

3. Supreme Court and Voting Rights: Another Front of Concern

[16:52–20:48]

• SCOTUS Oral Arguments: Melissa Murray breaks down the Supreme Court’s review of a key Voting Rights Act provision, noting that conservative justices question whether racial remedies are still necessary.

  “The impact of Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act cannot be overstated…This is what the Court, I think, has a problem with today.” — Melissa Murray [17:43]

• Historical Context and Impact: Murray asserts the racial remedies encoded in Reconstruction-era amendments were meant to enable programs like the VRA, and pulling them back would threaten minority representation.

• Judicial Confusion: Caldwell notes the Supreme Court is increasingly intervening in cases where its involvement sows confusion for lower courts.

4. Racism, Hate Symbols, and the Congressional Response

[20:48–23:11]

• A swastika found displayed within a Republican congressional office sparks outrage and condemnation.

  “There seems to be an uptick in incendiary language, a coarsening of language…and this question that…the 14th and 15th amendments have an expiration date. It just really beggars belief.” — Melissa Murray [22:03]

• Link to ongoing debate about whether racism is “over,” connecting to the Supreme Court’s skepticism about race-based remedies.

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Intra-Democratic Party Debate: Schumer’s Leadership Under Fire

Guests:

• Joe Crowley (Former Democratic Congressman, Schumer Ally)

• Amanda Lippman (Run for Something)
  [26:27–37:14]

• Schumer’s Critics and Calls for Change:
  Amanda Lippman and young activists argue that Schumer’s style and reputation are incompatible with the current political moment.

  “He doesn't seem to have understood...that the Republican Party is not a good faith negotiator...He also is not the skilled communicator we need for this moment.” — Amanda Lippman [29:50]

• Effectiveness & Brand Issues:

  “It's such a problem that he is at this moment putting his ego above the brand of the party…They don't think that we are fighting for them because they don't see him as a powerful communicator.” — Amanda Lippman [36:39]

• Crowley’s Defense:

  “You’re talking about one of the greatest strategists in the history of the Congress…Chuck Schumer’s job right now is to do all he can to win the Senate back.” — Joe Crowley [30:34, 34:55]

• Data and Public Sentiment:
  Melber notes polling and the rise in disaffection among younger voters who see Democrats as out-of-touch.

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Law Enforcement, Pardons, and Police Betrayal

[39:49–44:02]

• Trump Pardons Capitol Rioters:
  Melber spotlights the hypocrisy: Speaker Johnson previously stated violent offenders from January 6 shouldn’t be pardoned, but did not object when Trump pardoned them on his first day back in office.

  “He was fine talking about it when he thought there was no cost...But when it actually came time...he didn't stand with the blue, not in word or deed.” — Ari Melber [42:34]

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Joe Rogan and MAGA Dissent on ICE

[44:02–45:45]

• Joe Rogan’s Break with Trump’s ICE Actions:
  On his influential podcast, Rogan—previously friendly to Trump—denounces current ICE actions:

  “No one with a heart is going to go along with that…It’s shocking.” — Joe Rogan [44:07; 44:11] “If you’ve been here for 25 years, you have a family, your kids go to school here…to ship them to a country where they’ve never been…shows no heart. That’s the problem.” — Joe Rogan [44:51]

• Authoritarianism Concerns:

  “But you see, once authoritarianism starts creeping in and it makes some inroads, which it’s definitely making right now, man.” — Joe Rogan [45:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chilling Dissent:

  “The punishment seems to be the fact that you get manhandled by ICE, no matter what you're doing…No one is supposed to be a witness.” — Melissa Murray [06:09]

• On DOJ Weaponization:

  “Normally cases are investigated and then there’s a decision made whether to prosecute. Here it’s the other way around.” — Leslie Caldwell [09:19]

• On Democratic Leadership Change:

  “The Democratic Party of the future is not going to be defined by Chuck Schumer…But it also shouldn’t be defined by him now.” — Amanda Lippman [34:32]

• On Heartless Deportations:

  “You’re about to ship them to a country where they’ve never been…shows no heart…this can’t be the only way to do this.” — Joe Rogan [44:51]

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Key Timestamps

• Trump’s DOJ and ICE tactics – [01:05–06:59]
• Legal expert commentary (Caldwell, Murray) – [06:09–14:01]
• Supreme Court/Voting Rights arguments – [16:52–20:48]
• Capitol racism incident & implications – [20:48–23:11]
• Schumer/Dem leadership debate (Crowley, Lippman) – [26:27–37:14]
• Fact check: Trump pardons Capitol rioters – [39:49–44:02]
• Joe Rogan on ICE & authoritarianism – [44:02–45:45]

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Tone and Style

Throughout, Ari Melber uses a precise, urgent, and occasionally incredulous tone. Guests answer gravely but conversationally; even sharp critiques are grounded in specific, reasoned arguments. Memorable moments include frank acknowledgments of political realities, moments of emotional appeal (e.g., discussing the treatment of “the woman with the clarinet”), and sharp legal analysis.

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For Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode delivers a thorough, unvarnished look at the real-world consequences of political and legal decisions under Trump’s second term—moving beyond headlines to legal process, civil liberties, and the integrity of democratic institutions. The rare convergence of legal expertise, intra-party debate, and dissent from even MAGA-aligned figures like Joe Rogan meaningfully contextualizes both the urgent risks and the political currents shaping America’s immediate future.

Transcript

[Ari Melber]

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman, where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.

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[Melissa Murray]

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[Ari Melber]

Welcome to the beat, everyone. I'm Ari Melber. We're covering the president going after the Justice Department and trying to turn it inside out to become a place where law and facts don't govern charges and instead he gets a Russia like set of indictments against any opponents that he doesn't like. We have watched the cozy links between Donald Trump and his own appointees. He's now run through more FBI directors than most presidents and it's on display at the White House. What you're seeing here is a total change and in concert with the revenge cases, it's a problem from a rule of law perspective. The president inviting the FBI director Patel and the Attorney General Bondi, and they spoke about his agenda and going at only certain parts of the country, for example, cities and places that the president views as some sort of hostile territory because they happen to be governed by an opposition party, which remember very recently he's threatened more charges, for example, threatening to indict and jail the mayor and governor of Illinois. And these are not idle threats when you see the many indictments we've already covered. Here's what it looked like today. And we're just at the start. We're going to go into other cities that we're not talking about purposely. We're going to have a surge of strong, good people patriots. And they're going to go in, they straighten it all out. Somebody said, would we take, would we think about taking the World cup away from Boston if they don't straighten it out. And the answer is, yes, we have the right to do that with FIFA. So if we think that L. A is going to be bad or we think that applies a little bit to the Olympics, too. President mentioned the Olympics there. There are people who've worked in Trump's orbit who've mentioned that he has already been eyeing the pending Los Angeles Olympic as a chance to use more federal power in the run up to other events where he wants to take more control over our civic life and even potentially elections. Again, not idle threats. Things we have to take seriously. The ICE tactics are also on full display in Chicago. Protesters dealt with a shocking scene. Dozens of agents using tear gas and smoke grenades. A scuffle that was sparked by a car chase on the south side of the city. And there's security footage from the Chicago Sun Times that shows a white SUV driven by agents apparently colliding with this red car, which sent it into a parked vehicle. Not exactly enhancing safety. The occupants fled on foot, though they were arrested. DHS says they were undocumented or illegal immigrants. But the Sun Times reports as the apparently intentional crash was a risky move by law enforcement. Chicago police, of course, quote, barred from causing a collision with another vehicle during a pursuit. Other police departments ban or restrict that maneuver. And this is not exactly isolated. Agents have repeatedly been seen, quote, releasing smoke bombs, tear gas and pepper balls to dispense residents, including those who might be exercising their rights to try to just document it on video or cell phone. The Times reports that's happened repeatedly and it's harmed Chicago police officers. At one point, a community outraged in Oregon, where a woman was playing the Ghostbusters theme on a clarinet. This was outside a Portland ICE facility and that was enough to get arrested. She was also tackled. That is the kind of force we are seeing routinely. Local news has a video of her pin to the ground with the clarinet in the mud to her side. Speaker Johnson is fine with it. Take a look. Where's the limit for you on what's acceptable conduct for federal law enforcement? And when is it incumbent on Congress to step up and demand oversight, to demand oversight on federal law enforcement? I've not seen them cross the line yet and that we have committees of jurisdiction who have that responsibility. But it's not risen to that level. Johnson saying it hasn't risen to that level. Later in the program, we will show you some conservatives who think it's way over the line, including a major MAGA voice, Joe Rogan, who hosted the president last year and now says ICE is way over the line and no one with a heart would support what Trump is now doing. So there is dissent, there are concerns, and there is the raw evidence out there, as we showed you tonight. While some Republicans say everything here is just fine in the context of both these raids and the ongoing weaponization of the Justice Department, I want to bring in the head, former head of the DOJ's criminal division, Leslie Caldwell, who's overseeing all the types of major cases here that we're seeing compared to the new Trump era. And Melissa Murray, NYU law professor, MSNBC analyst. Welcome to both of you. Melissa, those tactics, something as allegorical as the, as a musical instrument falling to the way, to the side while this woman is manhandled, et cetera, and in some other cases, video that seems to suggest the federal officers were the source of danger, not not there to fix it.

[Melissa Murray]

Now, again, this is all really alarming. This goes beyond simply enforcing federal immigration laws. It's creating public safety problems. It's also, and I think this is the real point, chilling dissent. I mean, the idea that someone playing a clarinet with the Ghostbusters theme song, she's not there to obstruct the issue. She's there to call attention to dissent, and she's not being permitted to do so. So we are seeing individuals who have First Amendment rights who are permitted to be there. They're not obstructing the law enforcement process, and yet they're being manhandled. We've seen this with journalists. We've seen this with bystanders, with family members. It's gotten to the point where the punishment seems to be the fact that you get manhandled by ice, no matter what you're doing, that this is just supposed to happen. No one is supposed to be a witness. No one is supposed to raise any object. And if you do, then there are consequences.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. And we're playing this up here, and we'll leave some of this up because it is important that people see this. We all understand that what's happening in your block or your community tends to affect people more than something elsewhere. But the president's made it very clear. I'm showing this video on repeat for people to understand. The president is saying, this is coming to a town near you. So if it's not in your town yet, it's coming. He's named off different towns. He's talking about different excuses, like sporting events, international sporting events, which are quite common. Many countries have security for that. And saying, we'll either take it away or we'll do more in la. We're gonna do more other places. This is happening. I think people have to understand that's the repercussions and it's not gonna be exempted from you just cause you're in a farther away place that's not on the list yet. That's the background, Leslie, the use of force for what's going on at the Justice Department where you, where you served. Jack Smith is incredibly careful. He's just spoken out in this interview with Andrew Weissman, who I mentioned is a former colleague of his and an MSNBC analyst. So in News World, we don't look at it as the exact same, as a completely independent conversation, but it certainly was newsworthy. And Smith is so careful. I mean, he's prosecuted people without fear of favor. War criminals, corruption cases. He went after John Edwards. People said, oh, that's a big Democratic politician. He said, well, I'm just going after the evidence. And that's what he says he did in the Trump case. Now we're hearing for the first time, and that's by way of introduction to him saying that the deal that the Trump administration blatantly publicly admitted to cutting with Mayor Adams was an exchange. And he says that's wrong. He's never seen anything like that. Take a look at this on Mayor Adams.

[Leslie Caldwell]

Nothing like what we see now has ever gone on this case in New York City where the case against the Mayor was dismissed in the hopes that he would support the President's political agenda.

[Ari Melber]

One, do you share his view of the public evidence on that? And two, what do you think overall of what he's saying and how he is, I think sounding an alarm, but doing it in his careful way.

[Leslie Caldwell]

So yes, I agree with him. I've never seen anything like that. I used to work, by the way, in full disclosure with Jack and Andrew overseeing both of them. That is that, that was an extraordinary development, that whole Adams case.

[Ari Melber]

I'll jump in just to say in your normal diplomatic way, you're mentioning you were their boss, correct? Yeah.

[Leslie Caldwell]

And I think, you know, I've never seen anything like that. I think Jack did discuss it in a very measured way, as he's wont to do. I think what's happening across the Justice Department with the Trump administration is there's a big meltdown of the process, the normal processes. So normally cases are investigated and then there's a decision made whether to prosecute. Here it's the other way around. It appears that there's a decision Made that somebody must be prosecuted. Jim Comey, Letitia James, and others must be prosecuted. And then there's an effort, sometimes more strenuously than others, to actually build some kind of a credible case.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, it's striking. And have you seen him be this concerned in public before? I mean, he so rarely speaks out that I don't think we've seen this.

[Leslie Caldwell]

I don't think he's spoken out until this. At least not that I've seen. And I've known Jack for quite a while, but I frankly have not spoken to him since he took the Special Case Council assignment because I just didn't think it would be appropriate. But this is not. Jack is not out to make a name for himself as somebody who, unfortunately, everyone does know now his name, but that's not the kind of person he is. I mean, he usually stays within his lane and within his lines. And so I think for him to speak out shows how strongly he feels about these issues. And frankly, I think he's right to feel this strongly because the whole Justice Department is being turned into a weapon against certain people. I'm sure it's functioning on a normal basis. And name that U.S. attorney's office where they're arresting the local drug dealers and doing all the normal things. But this is a very different setup.

[Joe Crowley]

Yeah.

[Ari Melber]

Professor Murray, he also talked about what's failing on the results. One of the annoying things about us lawyers sometimes is because we're steeped in law and rules, we talk a lot about those things and process, and it matters. But sometimes people listening say, process, process, process. What's happening? What is the result? And he made a very important point. I want to play here, it's about 30 seconds where he says the way the DOJ is failing now means that our national security and our experts are actually compromised. And while no one's rooting to learn the hard way what that leads to, he's very clear on that. And he gave the example that everyone remembers, which was the want and disregard for the security rules, which could potentially be illegal. And the signal chats and extra. And he says at a minimum, you'd look into it. That's what you're there to do. There's a National Security division for a reason, and he is saying he doesn't believe that the DOJ currently is allowed or is doing that. If somebody's on whatever team. Team Red, take a look at this moment for your reaction.

[Leslie Caldwell]

If you think getting rid of the people who know most about national security is going to make our country safer, you do not know anything about national security. People in the Defense Department using signal to communicate with each other about war plans. Clearly classified information. I can tell you, Andrew will tell you there is no administration, Republican or Democrat, that does not open an investigation in that situation.

[Ari Melber]

He's saying from his expertise, these policies aren't only wrong, but running the DOJ this way will. And dangerous will make us less safe.

[Melissa Murray]

I think that's clear. I think a number of people have said this over the course of the last two months. The cuts in the federal agencies, the jettisoning of staff, career staff who had real expertise but are not perceived as being Trump loyalists, has actually made us less safe than we should be in terms of national security. The fact that senior members of this administration continue to conduct classified business over an app that any of us could get on our phone is a real problem. It is something that should be investigated not just by the doj, but probably by Congress as well. And we're not seeing that. I mean, there was a lot in this interview with Andrew. I would also note to Leslie's point about Jack's comments about Mayor Adams. There's also something deeply anti Democratic about the elected mayor of one of the largest cities in the country being perhaps beholden to the administration because of this overhang of criminal charges. And it, like, if that had happened the way the administration had tried to make it happen, then Mayor Adams likely would not have been particularly responsive to the needs of New Yorkers because he would have been responsive to the needs of the administration that's anti democratic. I mean, so there's so much going on here that erodes basic institutions of democracy at the local level, at the federal level, and also at a global level in terms of our national security.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, I think you're breaking down really clearly for people. And depending on how it's done, worded or explicitly physically threatened, it could be a type of blackmail. What you're describing, we also have the Supreme Court looking at a whole big issue today of voting rights and race in America. And Professor Murray, one of the arguments that was raised, and I know how careful and respectful you are, so I'm eager to hear how you. How you do it on this one, is that maybe if you look around, some of the conservative members of the court said maybe racism's not a problem at all anymore in this country. Just look around and therefore, it's time to unwind. What were the signal achievements of the MLK 1960s era? And these are laws they pass. So rolling them back is changing. What is the law in the book. So I want to find out what you think about all that. We're going to take our shortest break and come back on that topic.

[Leslie Caldwell]

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[Stephen Dubner]

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[Leslie Caldwell]

Go ahead, listen to Freakonomics Radio wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ari Melber]

We'Re back with our Legal eagles, Leslie Caldwell, Melissa Murray Professor Murray, I just asked you about this hearing. Today. I want to play some of the oral arguments to the Supreme Court where what the conservatives are considering doing is making it harder to have these sort of racially representative districts.

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Were Section two to cease to operate in the way that you just described, what would the results on the ground be?

[Melissa Murray]

I think the results would be pretty Catastrophic. If we take Louisiana as one example, every Congressional member who is black was elected from a VRA opportunity district. We only have the diversity that we see across the south, for example, because of litigation that forced the creation of.

[Amanda Lippman]

Opportunity districts under the Voting Rights Act.

[Melissa Murray]

She's exactly right in that exchange. It's actually with Justice Kagan, not Justice Sotomayor. The impact of Section two of the Voting Rights act cannot be overstated. Part of the reason why we have such diversity in Congress is because these opportunity districts have been created that allow minority voters in states that have large populations to actually be represented by the kinds of candidates who are best likely and most likely to represent their interests. And this is something that the Court seems poised to deal a death blow to it. And it's not simply that they're saying that we cannot have majority minority opportunity districts for congressional representation. They're asking a more particular question. Is the use of race as a remedy for racial discrimination in the form of a racial gerrymander a violation of Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act? And so the core question is, would the framers of the 14th Amendment have expected race to be considered when they were structuring remedies for racial discrimination? And it seems like, yeah, they probably did. The 14th amendment, the 15th amendment were part of these Reconstruction constitutional changes that were intended to address the problem of black people not having civil rights. So they were accepting explicitly race conscious, and they were intended to allow Congress to craft remedies like the Voting Rights act, that would allow black people to be brought into the political community as equals. And this is what the Court, I think, has a problem with today.

[Ari Melber]

Well, I think it's fair to say that logically the argument is a reach. And it'd be the same if you have a corporate board and they look up and they say, oh, we've, we've never had a woman CEO. Let's develop programs to address that. Right. You can go on the attack and say, oh, does that mean that's the only reason you're hiring someone? No. But are you going to look at gender if you have a program designed to address historic disparities in gender? Yeah, gender or race or whatever the thing is, is going to come up. Leslie, I'm curious what you think just about the Supreme Court wanting to get into this right now. There's other stuff going on. And of course, whatever they rule will be the rule of law. That's the country we live in. But it doesn't seem that they had to jump into redistricting right now.

[Leslie Caldwell]

So it seems, and I'm not familiar with that exact case other than what has been reported, but it seems that they've been feeling the need to jump into a lot of things that they don't really need to jump into. And they've been jumping into it in a way that is creating confusion in the lower courts because they've been issuing rulings that are sent back to the lower courts, and the lower courts don't know what to do with it. In fact, even I think as recently as last week, some judges, I forget if it was the New York Times or the Washington Post, but some judges were surveyed and they were kind of complaining, like, why is the Supreme Court issuing all these orders without explaining them and so on.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah. Judges were sort of saying to the Times it's like this fast shadow docket, but they don't even know what the court's trying to say sometimes. Right.

[Leslie Caldwell]

So I don't understand why. And this seems different than. And I defer to Melissa, but this seems very different to me, not as a Supreme Court practitioner, but as just an observer and a lawyer, than what I remember from the past, where the Supreme Court would take very few cases and stay out of a lot of issues that they now appear to be jumping into.

[Ari Melber]

There's another breaking story out of Capitol Hill that also involves racism and hate and bigotry and anti Semitism in our country. This is part of what we're dealing with. This is a Republican office first spotted by Politico where police were actually called to investigate what was seen sort of hanging on a desk in the office, just in that desk area, Republican office, swastika that was inside an American flag. To be clear, we are going to show this image. Once Politico reporting this out, it was during a virtual meeting where you can see the flag with the swastika inside it altered, and it's a pin to a cubicle. This is Republican Congressman Dave Taylor's office. This is his staffer. He has now responded to this news late today saying, I am aware of an image that appears to depict a vile and deeply inappropriate symbol near an employee in my office. The content of that image does not reflect the values or standards of this office, my staff or myself. And I condemn it in the strongest terms. Professor, we show the image once because it would appear to be the kind of image that multiple people walking through that office would see. And it stayed up until now, until the press exposed it, your view of this in the halls of Congress.

[Melissa Murray]

So I guess it's great that Representative Taylor condemned it and as strongly and in the terms that he did, good for him. To connect this back to the court's oral arguments today in that voting rights case. Again, as Janae Nelson of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund said, the reason why we have representation of all stripes in Congress is because of the Voting Rights act, what it has done to bring people of color into the political community to allow them to vote for candidates where they can actually have their interests represented. I can't imagine any person of color looking at that photo and saying, yes, that represents my interest in some way. So, you know, I think the fact that we've had this reporting, we have the reporting yesterday about the young Republicans alleged text exchanges like racism is an issue right now in this country. There seems to be an uptick in incendiary language, a coarsening of language and this question that we have somehow turned the page and the 14th amendment and the 15th amendment have an expiration date. It just really beggars belief. It also is absolutely inconsistent with constitutional text which has no such expiration date on it.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, I think it makes sense that you're linking those together because the Supreme Court is up there talking about, as I mentioned, the idea that maybe these racism problems are over. And if that's a factual finding issue, as we say in court, then the response might be maybe they're wrong. I need to watch the news. Professor Murray and Leslie Caldwell on multiple issues. Counselors, thank you so much. Tonight we are going to turn later to a fact fact check because Speaker Johnson and Donald Trump have shown an anti police agenda. We have the receipts. Also, I mentioned this. I'm going to play it for you. It's pretty interesting. Joe Rogan says if you have a heart, you can't support some of what ICE is doing under Trump and why he is surprised about it. He's saying that to his large and influential audience. But up next, new calls for Chuck Schumer to step aside. The Democrats debate their future. Next, closing community clinics. So Democrats have three words for this. No way. There you have it. Chuck Schumer trying to show a little fight here in the shutdown. Many Democrats want even more fight, though, and are calling for new voices among the D.C. leadership of this party. There are now calls for Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer to step aside. The New Yorker has been in public Office for about 50 years Total 8 as Senate Leader and he faces this skepticism from some people, including younger activists in his own party. Whether on the issue of politics itself, is he too cautious to be the most effective leader for this moment against Trump to ideological questions about whether he's lost touch. And there's been many reports about this. We're just surfacing some of the arguments there. There's also criticisms of the Democratic messaging led by Schumer, his political playbook. While Democrats are out of power, which does mean they have less options to be fair, there are questions about whether at this moment in time with digital media and the Trump playbook, whether he is part of a Democratic class that struggles to break through much against Donald Trump. And that's against a backdrop where there are millions, literally millions of people protesting against what they view as the radical wannabe king agenda of this current Trump term. So some Democrats are saying Schumer should just make way for a new Senate leader to reboot the Democrats sort of public face and messaging to the country right now. And there are some warnings about how just waiting is not a good option if they say we'll just give him another year to the midterms, etc. Indeed, the party has a kind of post traumatic Biden disorder over the effort to do just that. Wait on a somewhat troubled candidate politically and then only later show him the door. Others suggest that Schumer might even be vulnerable to a liberal primary, depending on who runs. That's a frankly once unthinkable challenge to the most powerful Democrat in office right now. So that's within the party about Schumer. But in the time that Schumer has been in office, he has done a lot. So his allies talk about his results. I'll mention some of those in a moment. While his defense detractors say he has made the wrong decisions.

[Stephen Dubner]

Hello.

[Ari Melber]

Glad to be part of your live performance. We are voting to pass the Respect for Marriage Act. It's getting to the point where I'm starting to feel like Chuck Schumer wants.

[Melissa Murray]

To lose his seat. He can't do anything right.

[Ari Melber]

This temple to democracy was desecrated, its windows smashed, our offices vandalized. Today, protests outside of the Brooklyn home of the Democrats. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer facing backlash from within his own party. We have solutions that will pass the House and Senate right now and will not shut down the government. And that's what we're urging you to do.

[Amanda Lippman]

Senate Democrats have to sit down and take a look and decide whether or not Chuck Schumer is the one to lead in this moment.

[Ari Melber]

If we don't reckon with President Trump's persistent transgressions, the very foundation of this great republic is at risk. New data came out today from kff. That is not Kentucky fried French fries. KFF could be Kentucky French fries. What the are you doing?

[Stephen Dubner]

Chuck Schumer is a human flat tire.

[Ari Melber]

That's some of the back and forth how he plays, especially right now, as well as some of those moments that people might forget where he and his allies say he has gotten things done and been a tough, resilient resistor to Donald Trump. Allies also say he helped shepherd Obamacare through, passed the American rescue plan, helped infrastructure funding get passed, did some gun safety work, which has always been hard in the Congress no matter who's in charge, and has supported LGBTQ rights. Schumer got here by raising money and helping Democrats win elections. In 2010, Senate Democrats held onto the chamber even despite what was a very widespread Obama backlash on the right, including the so called Tea Party. Schumer allies say that's the kind of results that he has won and that the larger Trump problems aren't from him. The Democratic Party is starting to have these debates a little bit more in public, which is a change from the stifling of the very reasonable documented concerns about Joe Biden up until the debate, which flipped it all over. So with that in mind, we want to have a interesting civil discussion here tonight. We're not afraid of either side here. Former Democratic Congressman Joe Crowley was the chair of the House Democratic Caucus, something of a Schumer ally, although you can put it in your own words. And Amanda Lippman is co founder and president of Run for Something, a political group that tries to recruit progressives and is more aligned with some of the moves for change. Of course, I'm just simplifying, but welcome to both of you.

[Amanda Lippman]

Thank you for having us.

[Joe Crowley]

Thank you. Good to meet Gary.

[Ari Melber]

Thanks, Amanda. Is it time for new Democratic leadership in the Senate?

[Amanda Lippman]

I think we're looking at a moment where if Schumer folds in this shutdown, if he does not actually negotiate a written down genuine deal that Republicans will hold to, I think he's going to start to hear calls from his own caucus to step aside because he has backed down too many times over the last eight months. He's got to prove the that he's got the backbone now.

[Ari Melber]

Do you view it, Amanda, as largely a political issue? Does he have the right strategy and results or a substance and ideology issue? As we've seen, the party also look towards more progressive planks right now.

[Amanda Lippman]

I think it's a little bit of both. I think, you know, Senator Schumer doesn't seem to have understood up until this moment, that the Republican Party is not a good faith negotiator. They are not good faith partners in governance. They don't want to try and negotiate around the edges for policy. They want to burn it down. He also, I think, is not the skilled communicator we need for this moment. You know, the shtick with him is he's got the flip phone, he doesn't even have an iPhone. I don't know if that's still true or not, but that's actually not charming anymore, given how people get information. He can't really communicate in the way we need our Democratic leadership to do right now.

[Ari Melber]

Congressman, you've been in there. You know how it works and how it can be hard. And Amanda's saying that, that Chuck's not that effective anymore and it's probably time for him to go. What do you say?

[Joe Crowley]

Yeah, probably. His Instagram account probably isn't the hippest, I would imagine. And at the same time, you're talking about one of the greatest strategists in the history of the Congress, a tactician's tactician. And we're a long ways from March of earlier this year. A lot has happened and transpired since then. I think Chuck Schumer understands exactly what this administration is about and what his Republican colleagues now are about. Just yes men and yes women to this presidency. I agree with Amanda that they're not there to legitimately negotiate. And I think Schumer's now laid down that gauntlet and he has kept together his caucus, with the exception of maybe three votes, they're winning. The people out there understand that it is the President's shutdown. It is the Republican controlled House and Senate shutdown. It's not Democrats who are forcing this. Democrats are standing up for workers. Democrats are standing up for people who need healthcare in this country. And Schumer's leading that charge. But I also would like to say, Ari, he's not necessarily the leader of the country. He's the leader of the Senate. He's not the Democratic leader at this point, nor is Hakeem Jeffries. He's the leader of the House, who is. We're waiting for that. We're waiting for that. Well, we don't even know yet. We're waiting for that presidential candidate to happen. And then.

[Ari Melber]

Let me jump in, Congressman. You're speaking to one of the debate points, which is some folks are saying that this idea that you wait around and have a whole primary, what, in a couple of years from now and find this leader that. That the stakes are too high, which of course is something Democrats also say, and that you have to start fixing some of the party's perception. I mean, Jon Stewart is not known for his endless Chuck Schumer hate. You can't dismiss him as a hater. He's seeing a punchline in the messaging problem. And I'm going to show you some TikToks where writ large. And again, to be fair, not just Chuck Schumer, but writ large, the democratic leaders in D.C. this is the reception on TikTok. I am feeling incredibly angry at the Democrats right now. Thought about it. I did a lot of reflecting. And it's actually everyone else's fault that I, I lost.

[Melissa Murray]

I'm a lifelong Democrat. It's our party that has left me feeling unsettled.

[Ari Melber]

We don't resonate with the average voter. It's just a fact. Democrats are now viewed as the party of elites. And, and Joe, then you say, okay, those are clips. But here's the national data. This party at this moment, more underwater, 30 points or so down than we've seen before. Joe.

[Joe Crowley]

No, I see that number. Yes. There's no question that we have a lot of work to do. But also, harken back, Ari, to my own loss seven years ago. Back then, at 56 years of age, I was being called Grandpa Crowley. And I'm sure that many of them same folks you just showed on Instagram were saying the same thing about me back then. What I think we have, especially as New Yorkers, we have the greatest opportunity ever to have the leader of the Senate, the leader of the House, both from New York, the opportunities they will provide for the state when and if they ever get back into power, and that's a big question, will be enormous for the Northeast and for, I think, blue cities and blue states as well. So there's an awful lot to fight for. I think we don't know who that candidate is going to be. Chunkshin was wrong right now is to win back the Senate. And I don't think he even cares about his own self. He cares more about winning back the Senate for the American people.

[Amanda Lippman]

Amanda, I think it's telling right now that some of the leading Senate candidates in the country in some of these battleground states are actively saying they will not vote for Chuck Schumer as Majority Majority Leader if they win back the Senate, that his endorsement right now or his and the DSCC's putting their thumb on the scale is actually a huge mark against them. Democratic primary voters do not trust the DC Establishment, they severely understand that the leaders that got us to this point do not have the skills nor the stomach to get us to the next one. They will not be able to get us out of this crisis. Now, I am comforted by the fact.

[Ari Melber]

Well, I'll let her finish and go to you.

[Joe Crowley]

Sorry. Sorry.

[Amanda Lippman]

Well, I would just say I am comforted by the fact that Run for Something has seen more than 70,000 young people raise their hands to say they want to run for office just in the last year, more so than we saw in the entirety of Trump's first term. So, like it or not, the Democratic Party of the future is not going to be defined by Chuck Schumer. I'll agree with Representative Crowley on that one. But it's also shouldn't be defined by him. Now.

[Joe Crowley]

I don't disagree with that notion. The idea that 70,000 people to run for office, I think that's great. I think that's gonna rejuvenate our party. We need that. We need primaries. I think it makes people better. But at the end of the day, Chuck Schumer's job right now is to do all he can to win the Senate back. And we have a tough slog against us because we don't have really great states that we're running in in two years. So that is his number one job right now, as is Hakeem Jefferson's job to win back the House Representative. See what's happening, the Voting Rights act and what they're doing to this country.

[Ari Melber]

And if he fails at that, they.

[Joe Crowley]

Both understand the odds.

[Ari Melber]

If they don't win back the Senate in November, then would you look for new leadership, Congressman?

[Joe Crowley]

That's up to the Senate to decide. It's not up to them. You know, it's a small no, I know.

[Ari Melber]

Well, now you sound like a politician. Yes, it is technically up to the Senate. Well, yes, it's up to the Senate. But we're having this discussion, and I'm asking you point blank, do you think if he. He doesn't win back the Senate, should he get another try? Because the question on the table from a lot of the younger members of the party is why keep running the same people and same blueprint if you're losing?

[Joe Crowley]

I think if Chuck Schumer is not the leader, doesn't necessarily mean he's not a member of the Senate. You know, that's the other point here that you're really getting to, is in two years, that'll be up for the voters in New York to decide whether Steven Schumer is sent back to the Senate in terms of their colleagues, that's up to the college to decide. It's inside baseball, Ari. As much as I want to say how someone who's going to replace Dick Dermen is going to vote in two years, we don't know.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, I hear you. And we're running out of time. It's not complete inside baseball because. Well, we just showed you a lot of people in the country who, who seem to know that, that Schumer and Jeffries are in charge and they're looking at that. I'll give Amanda a final word as well.

[Joe Crowley]

Well, Amanda can tell me who they're going to vote for for Senate. I'll listen to that.

[Amanda Lippman]

Well, it is such a problem that he is at this moment putting his ego above the brand of the party. The fact that so many young people, and I see it on my for you page constantly are saying, I don't want to go with the party. That guy in the front of it, you know, standing, waving his fist, fecklessly saying, we will win. They don't think that we are fighting for them because they don't see him as a powerful communicator. They don't see Hakeem Jeffries as a powerful communicator. They didn't see Joe Biden as a powerful communicator who can speak to the issues they care about. So it might feel like inside baseball, but what it looks like is someone putting their ego above the party and above the country.

[Ari Melber]

Really interesting. We're out of time. Can I do a quick compliment here? You both have, have a lot of passion about the direction of the country. I think that's clear. And you both have served in your own way. And we had a very civil, a civil debate about these issues. I'm always game for more of that, so I'd love to have you both back on together. Congressman Crowley, Amanda, you're great.

[Joe Crowley]

Thank you.

[Ari Melber]

Great. Thanks to both of you. I appreciate it. I think it's important. Coming up, Joe Rogan dropping the hammer on ice and Trump. But first, a fact check on the anti police agenda from the Trump pardons when we return. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Melissa Murray]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXdem app for over 400425 channels of AD, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free. Offer Details apply.

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[Ari Melber]

One of the greatest scandals facing the young second term of Donald Trump is that he freed from prison all these people who stormed the Capitol, including those who attack police. Republican Speaker Mike Johnson has stood by that as I'm going to show you. But what's new now with this face off over the government shutdown is questioning about whether Capitol Police should be paid during again Republicans are in charge of Congress in the White House this shutdown should law enforcement include Capitol Police who protect you, your family, you know Mr. Scalise the way as well as the.

[Joe Crowley]

Capitol building in general.

[Ari Melber]

Yeah, we've always stood with Capitol Police and law enforcement and we've shown that in word and deed. Now whether Mr. Johnson, the speaker wants to make sure they get paid is a shutdown question. But he went further and tried to use this as a moment to Say he, with word and deed, with action, supports the Capitol Police who do protect him. But on the first day of this new Trump term, the people who attacked those Capitol Police who risked life and limb to protect lawmakers who were in grave danger from those later convicted seditionists and others, well, Trump's first priority was to free them. Everyone who stormed the Capitol, including those who were violent convicts, including the seditionists. More than 150 officers from the same Capitol Police and D.C. were injured. 150 officers injured by those people. One Capitol Hill officer said the pardons were a betrayal and mockery of their dangerous service. Speaker Johnson, one day before those pardons, said that, said this.

[Amanda Lippman]

Mr. Speaker, do you believe that someone who assaulted a law enforcement officer on January 6th deserves a pardon?

[Ari Melber]

No. I think what the president said, and Vice President Elect JD Vance is said said, is that peaceful protesters should be pardoned, but violent criminals should not. That's, that's a simple determination, simple determination. Violent criminals, those who attack the Capitol Police and other police shouldn't be pardoned. That's what he said. And he did root it in a true reference because J.D. vance said, Obviously those people shouldn't be pardoned. So you're the speaker of the House. You have power. You're on record. It's the day before the inauguration, and Johnson had a choice of standing by what he had just publicly announced, standing with the Capitol Police or not. Republicans have long said, you guys act the blue. How do you justifiably say that when Trump just pardoned a bunch of violent.

[Leslie Caldwell]

January 6th rioters who attacked capital Freeze.

[Ari Melber]

The president has the pardon and commutation authority. It's his decision. The president's made his decision. I don't second guess those. Total reversal. He was fine talking about it when he thought there was no cost or somehow it would be okay and he could support the president. But then when it actually came time within days to address it, he didn't stand with the blue, not in word or deed. He apparently thinks everyone has forgotten what he's been saying in front of all of us. We bring you the receipts. You can make up your own mind about his reversal and this clear MAGA effort to go against against the blue fit in a break. When we come back, we're going to play some pretty striking sound of Joe Rogan going against Trump's ICE tactics. Donald Trump was always a PR savant, if nothing else, and he embraced the new digital mediums faster than some others in politics. Joe Rogan reached tens of millions of people with that Trump interview last year, by all accounts, it helped him reach more people and maybe reach some more voters, converting them. Now Rogan, who has been a friendly place for Trump, is making clear he's against some of these ICE tactics and being quite candid about it. And so I want to play at length what many millions of more MAGA oriented listeners are hearing now from Joe Rogan.

[Leslie Caldwell]

Sending people to other countries when they can't even speak the language.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Leslie Caldwell]

You know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

So no one with a heart is going to go along with that?

[Leslie Caldwell]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

And no one. I did not. I did not ever anticipate seeing that on TV on a regular basis.

[Leslie Caldwell]

Me either, man. Me either. It's shot. It's shocking.

[Joe Rogan]

I really thought they were just going to go after the criminals. I really thought there was enough gang members and enough people, Ms. 13 members and whatever they were looking for that they're wanted, they would go after those guys.

[Leslie Caldwell]

I'll say. Authoritarianism.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Leslie Caldwell]

You see how authoritarianism, when it begins to emerge, it's not like it's like non consensual.

[Joe Rogan]

If you've been robbing people for the last 10 years and you're an illegal, you have to leave the country.

[Ari Melber]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

That makes sense.

[Joe Crowley]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you've been here for 25 years, you have a family, your kids go to school here, you speak the language, you're just illegal, but you're a contributing member to the community that up until now has been protected. This is crazy to ask lower income and middle income people who are kind of getting by and then all of a sudden you're about to ship them to a country where they've never been, they haven't been since they were four, and you're gonna pull up their family and pull up, and they've been in the community like that, that, that, that shows no heart. And that's the problem. Like you're not going to get any reasonable people to want to go along with that. Any kind person would look at that and go, there's, this can't be the.

[Ari Melber]

Only way to do this.

[Leslie Caldwell]

Damn right. But, but you see, once authoritarianism starts creeping in and it makes some inroads, which it's definitely making right now, man.

[Ari Melber]

Authoritarianism creeping in, having a heart with how we deal with people who are not, not doing violent or serious crime and taking what we were told in a campaign or the vows we heard, and holding the government, in this case the Trump administration accountable. All of that coming from Joe Rogan on a podcast that has hosted Trump and a lot of Trump allies. For people who might want to consider those points. We'll be right back. We tried to cover some ground. Thanks for spending time with us on the Beat with Ari Melber. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Melissa Murray]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the Sirius XML app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.