Trump's New False Claim: 'No Limits' To My Power

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beat with Ari Melber

Episode: Trump's New False Claim: 'No Limits' To My Power

Date: June 19, 2026
Fill-in Host: Melissa Murray

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the growing controversy over President Trump's assertion of "unlimited" presidential power, the fallout from his Iran war and related foreign policy failures, and new reports of questionable government contracts and DOJ actions. Featuring analysis from Tara Palmeri, Margaret Carlson, Ambassador Michael McFaul, and Leah Litman, the show also celebrates the opening of the Obama Presidential Library with insights from photographer Pete Souza.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Assertion of 'Unlimited' Power

(01:27–04:32)

• Main theme: President Trump, in a recent interview, claimed his power as president is "unlimited," contradicting constitutional checks enforced by Congress and courts.
• Interview excerpt (Trump): "There are no limits. No limits. No not. I haven't learned that lesson yet. I know there are, but you know there are no limits." (02:02)
• Analysis (Melissa Murray): This is "an obviously false assertion," and current pushback from Congress and the courts may be fueling Trump's desire for greater power.

Notable moments:

• Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan's new book reports Trump comparing himself to autocrats (Napoleon, Hitler, Mao, Stalin).
• Trump’s insistence on specific terminology for the Iran strike ("obliterated")—even pushing VP J.D. Vance to change his language in interviews.

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2. Iran War and the 'Obliterated' Messaging

(04:32–07:02, 20:53–27:16)

• Trump’s handling: Facing declining poll numbers, Trump pushes an aggressive narrative after a controversial strike on Iran.
• VP J.D. Vance: Initially reluctant to use "obliterated," but soon echoes Trump’s rhetoric under pressure.
• Ambassador Michael McFaul: Critiques the outcome as a "humiliating loss" for the U.S., stating:
  • "It is absolutely impossible to say this is in any sense a win for the United States, because it's not. This is a pretty humiliating loss for the United States." (20:53, 22:10)

Discussion:

• The Iran deal is described as weak, primarily benefiting Iran, and reached from a position of weakness.
• The signed Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) is heavily criticized.
• Congress and the public are turning against Trump’s foreign policy.

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3. Congress Pushback and Legacy Concerns

(05:07–08:41, 09:11–12:38)

• Tara Palmeri: Trump is in "legacy mode," increasingly detached from his party, and content to push through unpopular deals since "he's a lame duck president."
  • "He's always seen his staff as purely staff. He thinks he is the smartest person in the room...as he gets older...you're probably seeing a manifestation of that with arguably the most powerful man in the world." (06:30)
• Margaret Carlson: Notes growing resistance in the Senate—even from usually loyal Republicans, "a wave is building here and this memorandum which gets us nothing...is the turning point." (12:38)
• Ongoing power struggle between Trump and JD Vance, as some speculate on potential mid-term implications and Trump's ability to secure his legacy.

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4. Corruption Allegations: The Reflecting Pool Scandal

(14:43–20:12)

• Trump administration awarded a $14 million no-bid contract for D.C. Reflecting Pool renovations to a company owned by a party donor and Mar-a-Lago neighbor.
• The project's outcome is disastrous: the pool is now "Shrek green," blue paint peels, and unsuccessful fixes cost taxpayers over $16 million.
• Tara Palmeri: "It's the definition of political patronage...enriching your pals in government office...if this happened at a local level, there would be outrage." (17:13)
• Margaret Carlson: "There were cost overruns that just went right through and right into the guy's pocket without any questions." (18:10)
• On Trump's pattern: "He will turn on you at the slightest infraction...do not expect any explanation from him about it, any apologies, any change in behavior going forward." (18:57)

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5. DOJ ‘Weaponization Fund’ and Birthright Citizenship

(27:23–34:43)

• DOJ refuses to put into writing that it has ended the controversial fund that could pay Jan 6 rioters; insists verbal statements are "enough," raising bipartisan concern.
• Testimony from Acting AG Todd Blanche: "I'm not committing to putting anything in writing. I'm telling you what we're doing." (28:45)
• Criticized as an “FU moment” to the courts (Leah Litman, 31:35), seen as the administration defying judicial oversight.
• Denaturalization push: DOJ has filed 29 cases this year, a dramatic increase, as the administration awaits a Supreme Court ruling on Trump’s attempt to end birthright citizenship.
• Analysis (Leah Litman): SCOTUS may strike down Trump's executive order, but the protracted legal fight signals "they have allowed the administration to shift the Overton window." (33:45)

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6. Contrast: Obama Presidential Library Opening

(37:44–44:49)

• The Obama Presidential Center opens amid nationwide celebration, featuring photos by White House photographer Pete Souza.
• Souza and host recount the importance of capturing both historic and everyday moments during the Obama administration.
• Highlights include the "Bin Laden raid" photo, Jacob Philadelphia’s famous hair-touching image, and candid glimpses of Obama’s humor and interactions with staff.
  • Pete Souza: "I found out about Barack Obama is his schedule was just a starting point...I was always on the lookout for these unexpected moments." (41:48)
  • On Obama’s respect for staff: "It's as simple as that. They were very respectful to the White House staff." (42:34)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump: "There are no limits. No limits. No not. I haven't learned that lesson yet..." (02:02)
• Melissa Murray: "This is not simply about discontent over the Iran deal...polling says that Americans are souring on Trump's agenda writ large." (10:38)
• Ambassador Michael McFaul: "This is a catastrophic failure for the United States of America...we're no more secure, we're not more prosperous, and we're most certainly not adhering and supporting our democratic values..." (25:12)
• Tara Palmeri: "This is enriching your pals in government office. If this happened at a local level, there would be outrage in the local papers." (17:13)
• Leah Litman: "Todd Blanche's posture is very much par for the course for the administration...this seems like Todd Blanche's FU moment." (31:35)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:27 – Show theme introduction and Trump’s “no limits” claim
• 02:02 – Trump’s interview on presidential power
• 04:04 – The Iran war “obliterated” language pressure
• 05:07 – Tara Palmeri on Trump’s legacy mode
• 07:02 – Comparing Trump to historical autocrats, GOP response
• 14:43 – Reflecting Pool scandal coverage
• 17:13 – Tara Palmeri: political patronage defined
• 20:53 – Michael McFaul on Iran outcome as humiliation
• 27:23 – Trump DOJ’s slush fund controversy
• 31:35 – Leah Litman on DOJ/courts confrontation
• 33:45 – Prediction and analysis of Supreme Court’s stance on birthright citizenship
• 37:44 – Interview with Pete Souza on Obama’s legacy and presidential photography

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Conclusion

This episode of The Beat delivers a comprehensive breakdown of President Trump’s increasingly defiant rhetoric and governing style, deepening questions about accountability, legacy, and the state of American democracy. The stark juxtaposition between the chaos and grift allegations surrounding Trump’s administration and the values celebrated at the Obama Presidential Library opening provides a reflective coda on the meaning of presidential leadership and public service.

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This summary captures political context, key arguments, and memorable quotes, providing a concise and engaging guide to the episode’s content for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Melissa Murray]

I'm Cyndi Lauper with fellow Cosentyx advocate Chef Michelle Bernstein.

[Michelle Bernstein]

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[Melissa Murray]

Muscle Milk Protein for All welcome to the Beat. I'm Melissa Murray in for Ari Melber. Tonight there are new concerns about the DOJ and the controversial fund that could pay January 6th rioters. Also tonight I'll talk with Ambassador Michael McFall on the bipartisan backlash to Trump's Iran deal. But we start tonight with renewed fears that the president is asserting an expansive vision of presidential power. In a new interview about the Iran war, Trump claimed that his power as president is unlimited. Take a listen.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

What have you learned about not just the exercise of power, but the limits on your power as a result of the conflict? There are no limits. No limits. No not. I haven't learned that lesson yet. I know there are, but you know there are no limits.

[Melissa Murray]

Now that is an obviously false assertion. Not only does the Constitution of the United States limit presidential power, but the courts and Congress are increasingly enforcing those limits against this president. But it may be that pushback that is in fact fueling the President's thirst for unprecedented power. Today, the Wall Street Journal reported that Trump has recently been rejecting advice from aides and lawmakers, telling them, quote, I'm the president and you are not. In a new book, the New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan reveal that Trump once compared himself to a series of powerful figures from history. According to the report, he rattled off names. Napoleon, Hitler, Mao, Stalin. Those leaders, Mr. Trump said, maintained power through fear. Trump then reportedly posed what observers took to be a rhetorical question, musing, quote, who would ever do a thing like that, right? According to the times, following a June 2025 strike on a nuclear enrichment site in Iran, the president crowed that the strike had completely, quote, obliterated Iran's nuclear capabilities. When Vice President J.D. vance proposed describing the strike in more muted terms, the President was not happy. Quote, trump told one associate, everyone needs to say effing, obliterated. That's the word. Everyone just needs to copy what I say. Obliterated. Obliter. When in an interview, Vance failed to use the word obliterated, Trump reportedly grew angry. Vance then changed his tune. Check out these two interviews just one day apart.

[Interviewer / Host]

Have those facilities been obliterated?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Well, John, severely damaged versus obliterated. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is. What we know back substantially, we have obliterated the Iranian nuclear program. Obliterated the Iranian nuclear. Nuclear program.

[Medical Advertisement Voice]

Their nuclear program has been obliterated.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

As I said before, that is the obliteration of their nuclear program, which is why the president, I think rightly is using that term.

[Melissa Murray]

Seems like he got on message. And that's where we start tonight. Trump is on the defense over Iran. He is plunging in the polls, and he is fuming, grasping for power at a time when it appears to be slipping away. Trump. Joining me now to discuss is Tara Palmeri, longtime journalist, formerly with Politico and host of the Tara Palmeri show, and author of the Red Letter Substack. Tara, the President is claiming unlimited power. This is not the first time he's offered a muscular vision of presidential power. But what do you make of this claim in this moment?

[Tara Palmeri]

Clearly, he doesn't understand his role as a civil servant. Right. And I think, if anything, we saw the of his power with the war in Iran and the fact that he was not able to get the outcome that he would have wanted. I mean, two of the 14 points in that deal are actually in favor of the United States, and they barely are. He's clearly in legacy mode right now. He's not concerned about his own party. He doesn't really care what happens in the midterms, even though there will. There's a threat of impeachment, I guess, another impeachment. So, to him, he probably just thinks it's not a real exercise in holding his power to account because the last few have been unsuccessful. But I think what you're seeing is that the Republicans in Congress, especially those who have been defeated because he backed challengers in their primaries, they don't really care anymore. I mean, they're in a YOLO phase, you could say, and they're willing to defy his leadership. Also, he is a lame duck president, and so whether he likes it or not, these people, they don't need him anymore. So who knows? I mean.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, it's a great point. He's a lame duck president, perhaps focused on legacy, but he's also seeming to move into a new phase. Like, what do you make of him telling aides and lawmakers that I'm the president and you're not? I mean, is that about legacy or is it about something else?

[Tara Palmeri]

I think Trump has always been this way. He's always been indignant. He's never really valued anyone else's opinion unless he's pitting people against each other. And he enjoys watching the fight. He's always seen his staff as purely staff. He thinks he is the smartest person in the room. I think that's pretty clear. But I think as he gets older, as we've seen, people tend to become, as they say, more set in their ways. Right. And you're probably seeing a manifestation of that with arguably the most powerful man in the world, and he's obviously high on that power right now, as you can see.

[Melissa Murray]

Is this a dangerous moment for the country? Certainly in global affairs, but even domestically, we have a president who's comparing himself to Mao, Hitler, and Stalin. These are famous autocrats at a time when democratic institutions seem to be fragile. Should we be worried about the president comparing himself to these figures and asserting this very muscular vision of executive power?

[Tara Palmeri]

I mean, power that's unchecked is absolutely an issue, especially in the democratic system. We hope that the processes, the. The checks and balances will actually check his power. I mean, hopefully Congress now will. The Republican members will see less of a threat to their position. I mean, they've been pretty much cowards until this point, but some of them no longer, you know, needing to keep him on their good side. They might just side with Democrats. We'll have to see what happens. But these are his final years, and we've only got two more years, right? I know there's a lot of talk about whether he'll actually allow for a transition of power afterwards, but I would think that his Republican colleagues would make that less likely. You know, this is. And then he has JD Vance, who he clearly feels some sort of competition with already because he is positioning himself as the heir apparent. And JD Is thinking about his own political future, as we can see, in his positioning around the war in Iran. I think it's quite interesting that they would call it the Vance peace plan. I mean, had any of our peace plans with. With Iran actually worked? No. So you're basically handing him a. A failing plan, essentially.

[Melissa Murray]

Tara, I want to bring into the conversation Margaret Carlson. Margaret Carlson is a longtime journalist and editor at large for Semaphore. Margaret, we've been talking about the president in legacy mode. Tara just brought up the really tantalizing prospect of the president perhaps locked in some kind of power struggle with his heir apparent, J.D. vance. Is that how you're reading this development, this development with the Iran deal and Vance's apparent ownership of that deal despite its many problems?

[Michelle Bernstein]

Right. Carol was talking about the struggle with Congress and now the struggle with JD Vance, which has been going on for a while, and it's a triumvirate with Marco Rubio. And Marco Rubio is the more serious popular contender, I think, among the party in general. But Vance has, I think, the president's ear, and Vance is very diplomatic, where he manages somehow not to agree with Trump on Iran, but back him publicly on even this awful, awful deal that has nothing going for it. And on the other hand, the Senate, which always goes along with Trump up until now, I hear some spines growing. Even Senator Roger Wicker, the principled conservative from Mississippi, who's nonetheless held his tongue mostly up until now, disagrees and said about this memorandum that Trump is getting nothing with this plan that he got into the war to get. Now, that's a pretty stunning pronouncement from a very loyal old chair of the Armed Services Committee, Senator.

[Melissa Murray]

So with that in mind, Margaret, I mean, is this simply about discontent over the Iran deal, which doesn't seem to be going in the favor of this country, but seems to be accruing to Iran's favor?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Or.

[Melissa Murray]

Or is this also about the domestic climate, where it seems that polling says that Americans are souring on Trump's agenda writ large, like there's just not a lot of support for this? Is that why the Senate is growing a spine? Is that why J.D. vance feels more authorized to disagree with this president, sometimes publicly when things begin

[Michelle Bernstein]

to go wrong, sometimes this tipping point, the dominoes start to fall. And so you're seeing Trump in trouble on a number of fronts. He really enraged the Senate when he decided to keep Pulte in place instead of bringing in a normal, somewhat normal intelligence chief. And then he didn't want to get rid of him until he fired the people that he resented and didn't like and no longer wanted there at the agency. And so then the Senate, until the Senate passed a bill he wanted that's very unpopular and that Senator Thune can't get. The vote's poor. So now that's stymied and there's really no winner here. It's a terrible situation, but Trump seems dug in again. But he's not going to win this one because there aren't the votes in the Senate. And there are just any number of things where Trump now has those senators that lost their races simply because he backed their opponents speaking out against him. Bill Cassidy, very popular senator, a doctor who voted for Kennedy against his prudence principles in order to please Trump. There's no pleasing Trump. And now that's apparent. You can see that in so many different ways in which Trump's reacted lately. You can't do enough for Trump. He will turn on you at the slightest, you know, the slightest infraction against him. So I think there's a wave building here and this memorandum which gets us nothing, we stay in the hole. Is, is the turning point.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Margaret Carlson, Tara Palmeri, stick around. We're going to talk about the wave that may be coming from the big green monster, the D.C. reflecting pool on the other side of this 90 second break. Stay with us. I'm Cyndi Lauper with fellow Cosentyx advocate chef Michelle Bernstein.

[Michelle Bernstein]

We'll share our experiences with plaque psoriasis with psoriatic arthritis, and Dr. Panico will talk about the possible connection.

[Cosentyx Advertisement Voice]

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[Tara Palmeri]

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[Melissa Murray]

Go to stamps.com and use code podcast for a free welcome gift. Taxes and fees apply. Trump's Humiliating Reflecting pool debacle just got worse Today. The pool remains a bright shade of algae green. I think they call it Shrek Green. But now there are new revelations about the vanity project that suggest that it could be another example of grift. The New York Times reports that work on the reflecting pool was performed by a company that is owned by a trust led by a Trump donor and Mar A Lago neighbor. And wait, there's more. While most federal public works projects are awarded through a competitive bidding process, this contract for a $14 million project bypassed that competitive process and was awarded to this company in a no bid process. The Times reports that the owner of the company is a, quote, longtime Republican donor whom Trump has described as a fantastic man. Well, this fantastic man, according to the Times, was also, quote, once involved in a high profile bribery scandal. The administration says that the company was selected because it had the, quote, expertise, workforce and materials needed to complete this job on time. Neither the company nor its owner have responded to the Times. Workers have tried to fix the reflecting pool ahead of the 250th Independence Day celebrations. They've been pouring jugs of hydrogen peroxide into the water. But those efforts have backfired and all of this could cost taxpayers over $16 million. Here's a side by side from June 11 to June 16. As you can see, the green is clearly intensifying and as part of the effort to renovate the reflecting pool, the pool's interior was repainted blue. But now it seems that the blue paint is peeling off. Sam Stein and the bulwark went and sent their own folks over there to take a closer look. Take a listen.

[Interviewer / Host]

We're trying to get a visual. Okay, so that. That's good. So that's the bottom of the pool that is now coming off.

[Melissa Murray]

Margaret Carlson and Tara Palmieri are back with me. Tara, what's your response to this report of potential corruption in the bidding process for this public works project?

[Tara Palmeri]

I mean, it's the definition of political patronage there. This is a friend of Donald Trump. He gets a bid. There are. There's no bidding, actually. He just gets a contract, a $14 million contract. He's given Trump's affiliated PACs $300,000. He's known the guy for 10 years or more. President Trump literally gave him a shout out at an event. They're that close. This is enriching your pals in government office. If this happened at a micro. Like a local level, there would be outrage in the local papers. But here, I mean, this is just common business. It feels like everybody seems to be getting richer around Trump. Right? Including the Trump family themselves. So in a way, I'm not surprised. But it's. It's. It's like nobody's. It's like we're just used to it at this point.

[Melissa Murray]

So, Margaret, it could be the case that we have. Just go ahead.

[Michelle Bernstein]

I was just gonna say there were cost overruns that just went right through and right into the guy's pocket without any questions on a job that obviously is totally inferior.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I was gonna talk to you about that part, Margaret. I mean, it's not simply that we've become anesthetized to the grift or the apparent grift that may be in play here. It's that this grift doesn't seem to even be good grift. Like, this work is shoddy. It seems. And now sections of the pool's new layer of blue waterproo is coming up. So, you know, what do we. How do you even represent this to taxpayers? Like, this is taxpayer money going to fix a massive landmark in the nation's capital that is apparently being done with substandard working products and substandard results?

[Michelle Bernstein]

Well, Trump is. No apologies, no explanations. He. He hasn't explained anything so far, and he never acknowledges that anything's wrong. Somehow he'll ignore the blue blob in the Reflecting pool in a reflecting pool. That was just fine before he started messing around with it. You know, he's so obsessed with, like, interior decoration and exterior in this case. And there's a scene in the new book by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan in which he's super gluing fake gold to the fireplace in the Oval Office. And that's just what he does. It's all fake stuff, those letters going up on the Kennedy center that he cares about. It's that arch. It's the everything that says, here I am, I'm Trump. I'm a great man. By the way, great men don't say they're great men and slap their names everywhere. But this pool is part of this whole pattern. And do not expect any explanation from him about it, any apologies, any change in behavior going forward. That arch is going up if he has anything to do it. And that ballroom is being built.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Margaret Carlson, Tara Palmieri, thank you so much for getting us started this evening. Later, how the Obama Presidential Library, just now open to the public, highlights the contrast between the former occupant of the Oval Office and the current occupant. And just ahead, I'll talk to the Obama White House photographer who is behind so many of the administration's iconic moments. Plus, there is new heat tonight on Trump's DOJ over its controversial fund that could pay January six rioters. But up first, Ambassador Michael McFaul on what many conservatives say is Trump's defeat in Iran.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

It is absolutely impossible to say this is in any sense a win for the United States, because it's not. This is a pretty humiliating loss for the United States States.

[Interviewer / Host]

Three months ago, Trump wrote no deal with Iran except unconditional surrender. Little did we know he meant it was ours.

[Melissa Murray]

That was Jimmy Kimmel's take on Trump's Iran deal. And all of this is unfolding as the next stage of the process has already hit a snag. Apparently, Iran has delayed the nuclear talks that were supposed to start today. J.D. vance canceled a trip to Switzerland for those talks at the last minute. Discussions concerning Iran's nuclear capabilities were literally the first thing that was supposed to happen after the initial memorandum of understanding between the United States and Iran was signed, but apparently that has now gone kaput. Meanwhile, criticism of the MOU is heating up. The Wall Street Journal says that Trump reached the deal, quote, from a position of weakness, not strength, in essence, paying a ransom. Tucker Carlson is also piling on. Take a listen.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

It is absolutely impossible to say this is in any sense a win for

[Melissa Murray]

the United States, because it's not.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

This is a pretty humiliating loss for the United States.

[Melissa Murray]

And it seems that the American taxpayers aren't done paying the price for this loss. The Pentagon is asking for another $80 billion to help cover the cost of the war. It's increasingly apparent that this deal was not good for the United States. But one person seems to be in denial,

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

and it certainly brought Iran to the table more than before. However, beginning a conflict you had talked about, you only wanted unconditional surrender. And the MOU doesn't look like unconditional surrender. Well, it really probably is unconditional surrender.

[Melissa Murray]

Joining me now to break it all down is Michael McFaul, Ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration. Thanks so much for being here tonight. Ambassador McFaul, one of the major reasons for getting into this war was the opportunity to limit Iran's nuclear capabilities. What should we make of the fact that those discussions around Iran's nuclear capabilities are being deferred to another day?

[Interviewer / Host]

It means very bluntly, Trump did not achieve that war objective. He had other war objectives that he didn't achieve. But that was the paramount one. That was the first one. He didn't get it done. And he had to sign this memorandum of understanding to open the Strait of Hormuz, which was open before he started his war. And not only did he have to do that, he had to pay or at least make pledges of payments of billions of dollars, some that we have frozen assets for the Iran, others that are partners in the region will transfer up to $300 billion. That's what it says in the memorandum of understanding. So we're not just at the status quo ante before the war. We're actually worse off than when we started this war. And I didn't even mention the other things he pledged to get done. To end their missile program, to end their support for terrorism, to support the democratic aspirations of the people of Iran. None of those objectives have been met as well.

[Melissa Murray]

And as you suggest, like, this isn't returning us to the status quo ex ante. We actually had an Iran deal. As you know, President Obama negotiated that deal today. He weighed in on the newest Iran deal. Take a listen.

[Interviewer / Host]

We've now fought a war, spent billions and billions of dollars, you know, put enormous strain on our military. A lot of people have died, and it feels like we're back where we were before we started the war, except maybe a little bit worse off.

[Melissa Murray]

Ambassador McFaul is your former boss understating things. Are we just a Little bit worse off, or is this a real loss for the United States? Have we lost ground here?

[Interviewer / Host]

He's always a little more diplomatic than I am. He was being modest there. I think this is a catastrophic failure for the United States of America. The hardest decision that any president makes, including President Obama when I worked with him at the White House, is a decision to use force or not. You should only do that as a last resort. President Trump didn't use that criteria. He just decided to go in thinking it was gonna be a cakewalk. And now we're worse off. We've lost soldiers. Thousands have died in the region. We're gonna have to pay $100 billion to get back to where we were in terms of our military readiness. Billions around the world have been lost, including from American consumers to pay for oil prices. And we're no more secure. We're not more prosperous, and we're most certainly not adhering and supporting our democratic values that President Obama so eloquently talked about in Chicago. I was there for that speech. We're doing exactly the opposite. And this makes us a lot worse off compared to where we were three months ago.

[Melissa Murray]

Has this whole experience emboldened Iran and made us less safe?

[Interviewer / Host]

Absolutely. The Iranian regime is. They feel like time is on their side. Look at what they got in the memorandum of understanding. They got billions and billions pledged just to do what any responsible country is supposed to do. Number two, I would add to that, it's the autocrats of the world that are all emboldened. Right. Russia got a big payoff because of these increased oil and gas prices. Their allies in Tehran are still in place. China looks like the responsible stakeholder in the international system because they're not launching preventive, unilateral wars like President Trump just did. So I think the second and tertiary consequences also need to be added to this equation. I do. This, without question, is President Trump's biggest foreign policy failure, but I think it'll rank among the biggest failures of the last several decades.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, Ambassador McFaul will put a line under that. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

[Tara Palmeri]

Thank you.

[Cosentyx Advertisement Voice]

Thanks for having me.

[Melissa Murray]

Coming up, the man who snapped this iconic photo, White House photographer Pete Souza is here and we'll discuss Obama's new library and his presidential legacy. But first, Donald Trump's DOJ is refusing to commit to end their so called weaponization fund, meaning that January six rioters still could get paid. All of that is coming up after this break. Stay with us. The chaos surrounding Trump's controversial Billion dollar slush fund is escalating. Trump's DOJ is now refusing to make a sworn declaration that it is abandoning the controversial weaponization fund. The administration told a judge today that the judge's demands for a written statement were, quote, unnecessary. They even asserted that the court effort to compel statements from high level officials in the executive branch, quote, implic serious separation of powers concerns. According to the Trump doj, no further assurances are needed because Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche's congressional testimony disavowing the slush fund is more than enough. Take a listen.

[Interviewer / Host]

We are not moving forward with the fund, period.

[Melissa Murray]

Not moving forward ever.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Correct?

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, there's no more fund then.

[Michelle Bernstein]

Is there any way that you could

[Melissa Murray]

put this in writing?

[Interviewer / Host]

I'm not committing to putting anything in writing. I'm going to set it today over again. I mean, I don't know what the purpose of putting something in writing. I'm telling you what we're doing.

[Melissa Murray]

He told us what they were doing. But guess what, folks, that testimony was not under oath. Therefore it's not under the penalty of perjury. And now the administration is refusing to confirm their abandonment of the slush fund in writing. All of this just days after a different judge refused to block the fund because of Todd Blanch's testimony assuring Congress that the fund was not moving forward. But that judge did warn Trump's DOJ not to, quote, play possum with him. But it seems that that might be exactly what the DOJ is doing, despite the fact that the fund received rare bipartisan pushback. And that seems like it's just par for the course for these folks. Despite public criticism, the administration continues to push ahead with its unpopular agenda. One senior Justice Department official told CNN that the administration plans to file at least two hundred and fifty denaturalization cases by October. The department has already filed 29 denaturalization cases this year accusing those targeted of fraudulently obtaining U.S. citizenship. To put all of this in perspective, over the last 18 years, fewer than 10 denaturalization cases were filed annually. The push for denaturalization comes as the nation awaits the Supreme Court's ruling on Trump's attempt to ban birthright citizenship for the children of undocumented immigrants. That ruling could come as soon as next week. The birthright citizenship case is clearly important to the president. In April, he attended oral arguments for this case, the first sitting president to do so. But there the justices, even the Trump appointed conservatives appeared highly skeptical of the administration's executive order.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Take a listen it's striking that that in none of the debates do we have parents discussed. We have the child's citizenship. The absence is striking. You've mentioned several times the practices of other countries.

[Medical Advertisement Voice]

I guess I'm not seeing the relevance

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

as a legal constitutional interpretive matter.

[Melissa Murray]

I can imagine it being messy on some applications. What if you don't know who the parents are? Joining me now to break it all down is Leah Lipman, law professor at the University of Michigan and my co host on the Circ Scrutiny podcast. Her best selling book, Lawless how the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes, is now available in paperback. Leah, let's get right to it. What did you make of the DOJ's refusal to put the end of the slush fund in writing? Is this just going to be revived like some kind of zombie from a horror movie?

[Leah Lipman]

Well, we all know how much federal judges love being told no, no, thank you. But I think that Todd Blanche's posture is very much par for the course for the administration, who's adopted a posture of defiance and deleg legitimization toward the lower federal courts. Indeed, a previous high ranking DOJ official reportedly talked about telling the courts f you if they ever attempted to stop the administration from carrying out expulsions under the Alien Enemies Act. And this seems like Todd Blanche's FU moment.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, so this is an F U moment, perhaps the middle finger to the courts. Is it likely though, that this administration is just kicking the can on the weaponization fund and this is just going to be revivified at some future time and the American taxpayer is going to be paying for distributing funds to January 6th rioters?

[Leah Lipman]

It certainly seems that way because if they weren't going to do it, why wouldn't you put it in writing instead? It seems like they are probably waiting until a more politically convenient time to revive the fund, maybe after the 2026 midterms, who knows?

[Melissa Murray]

Speaking of waiting until a more convenient time, let's talk about the Supreme Court. Right. So the Court has a slew of decisions, big decisions on trans rights, on birthright citizenship that we haven't seen yet. And they're all going to come out in the next couple of weeks. We're looking particularly at this birthright citizenship case. What's your predict?

[Leah Lipman]

I think that the court is going to tell the President that his executive order indeed is unconstitutional, flies in the face of the 14th Amendment. And when they do that, we should breathe a sigh of relief. But we shouldn't really give the justices A pat on the back given that they would be doing the bare minimum and just reading what the Constitution says.

[Melissa Murray]

So tell us, why is this the bare minimum? Is it just that article or the 14th amendment? Section one is very straightforward in terms of who gets birthright citizenship.

[Leah Lipman]

It's not just the text of the 14th Amendment, it's also originalism, history. The people who drafted and ratified the 14th amendment spoke openly about how it would indeed give citizenship to the children of immigrants, including people who couldn't actually be citizens themselves. That was the case in the Supreme Court's near century old decision In United States vs Wong Kim.

[Melissa Murray]

Arc right. So this is very straightforward. The court is likely to strike this down. As you say, will it be unanimous and if it isn't unanimous, what should we take from that?

[Leah Lipman]

I am unwilling to say it's going to be unanimous. There are several Justices, particularly Justices Thomas and Alito, that often bend over backwards in order to give the administration what it wants. I think even if it is unanimous, however, the fact that the Court has indulged these arguments and drawn out this case for the better part of a year means they have allowed the administration to shift the Overton window about what is constitutionally so.

[Melissa Murray]

In the case we heard last year, Trump versus Casa, which was about the nationwide injunction, that was also a case about the Birthright Citizenship Executive Order. And the court could have answered this question about the substance at that time, but instead they declined to do so and let this question fester for over a year.

[Leah Lipman]

Exactly. And the plaintiffs in that case specifically asked the court, look, if you are going to tell the administration that lower courts can't actually block the order on a nationwide basis, then you Supreme Court should tell them that the order is unlawful and they didn't do that and instead invited the administration to continue developing guidance for how they would implement this wildly unconstitutional order.

[Melissa Murray]

So many people are speculating that the two septuagenarians on the court, Justices Thomas and Alito, are likely to step down in advance of the midterms. What's your take?

[Leah Lipman]

My guess is at least one of them will do so. I think Justice Thomas might want to continue serving justice. So he is the longest serving member of the Supreme Court.

[Melissa Murray]

What a way to own the libs.

[Leah Lipman]

Exactly. He likes making their lives miserable. But maybe Justice Alito will step down and allow the administration to replace him with some 20, 30 year old men's rights activist. Who knows?

[Melissa Murray]

All right, thank you Leah Lipman again. Leah's book Lawless, which is fantastic, is available now in paperback. It's easy to tote around and you can take it everywhere. Up next, I'm going to talk to the photographer behind some of the most iconic images from the Obama era era as the Presidential Library opens to the public. That's after this break. Celebrate America's 250th birthday with a perfect night's sleep this July 4th. Save up to $600 on Serta Perfect Sleeper X mattresses and adjustable base sets with a Q4 support system that helps relieve aches and back pain. Visit Asserta retailer today. Yo, it's Jay USO from WWE and I'm Jimmy uso. Chumba Kasina and WWE are hyped for the biggest event event of the summer SummerSlam. I know I can't wait. There's nothing better to do while we're

[Interviewer / Host]

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[Melissa Murray]

a VIP experience with Chumba Casino and with WWE for SummerSlam. So what are you waiting for? Play Chumbo Casino and enter for your chance to win. Let's Shumble. Only available in permitted states. No purchase necessary. See Terms and Conditions for details. BGW group would be prohibited by law. 21+ sponsored by Chumba Casino A better Help Admire Summer can feel like a sprint kids home, trips to plan, routines flipped upside down. It's easy to slip into survival mode just trying to get through it. Then suddenly it's over and you're wishing you enjoyed the days just a little bit more. Therapy can help you slow down and actually be present for the moments that matter. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist from anywhere on your schedule. Don't just survive this summer thrive. Visit betterhelp.com the Obama Presidential center opened to the public today with huge crowds coming to experience the 44th president's legacy. Many of the photos included in the exhibits were shot by White House photographer Pete Souza, seen here in a rare moment in front of the camera with President Obama in the Oval Office, Sousa captured some of the most iconic images of the Obama administration. From rare quiet moments like this one between the President and the first lady during the inaugural balls in 2009, to life and death decisions like the operation to capture and kill Osama bin Laden, Souza captured them all from behind the lens. He documented history in real time, and when Obama was asked to reflect on this moment and this photo a year later, he turned to Souza for the details.

[Interviewer / Host]

Here I am sitting right here.

[Tara Palmeri]

That's a.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

That's an intense look on your face and everyone is intently watching that screen.

[Interviewer / Host]

This Is if I'm not mistaken, Pete, this picture was taken right as the helicopter was having some problems. But you may not remember. I can't see that's what it feels like because I remember Hillary putting her hand over her mouth at that point.

[Melissa Murray]

There were moving moments as well, like this one where young Jacob Philadelphia, who asked then President Obama if his hair was quote, like mine. The president bent over to let the child see for himself. And the photo was an instant classic. Obama reconnected with Philadelphia when he graduated from high school. Take a at look.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you remember me? Yeah.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Remember you telling me that your hair

[Melissa Murray]

was going to be gray next time

[Interviewer / Host]

And I was not lying. It sounds like you're doing great, man, and I'm so proud of you.

[Melissa Murray]

Pete Souza joins me now. He was at the opening ceremony yesterday, but photographing some behind the scenes moment of the former presidents in attendance. And his new book is called An Intimate Portrait. And indeed, Pete and the President got very familiar with each other. Take a listen.

[Interviewer / Host]

Pete and I, we went all around the world. He was following me literally all day long on every trip, every meeting. And obviously he's taken some iconic shots.

[Melissa Murray]

Pete, sorry about that. This is not your new book. This is your book that I still have in my house and have had in my house for many years. Years. But in that book there are countless photos of yours that document the Obama administration. And those same photos are now in the Presidential Center. What photos would you like visitors to make sure not to miss when they visit?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

I mean, I think you've highlighted two of the most important ones, one of Jacob Philadelphia and the Bin Laden raid. But also I have a great affinity for music. And so some of the musicians that came to the White House to me are also exemplifies what the administration tried to bring to the people. Music, Arts, Science Fair. Things that we really don't see much of anymore.

[Melissa Murray]

Well, I think some of my favorite images that you shot were the photographs of the President interacting with children, including this very famous one of a young Clark Reynolds looking up at the President. What can you tell us about this photo and what was the President like with children?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

It's funny, I mean, he greeted the first hundred visitors today at the official opening at the center. And there were a couple of little kids that came through. So I got some interesting pictures of him today day with, with kids. But this particular one with Jacob, with Clark Reynolds was at a reception for African American History Month. And I spotted this kid in the front row, you know, with his tie over the rope. And I knew President Obama would stop in front of this kid and bend down. And when he did, just before, there was this one split second, fraction of a second where just his hand was touching his chest, cheek, which is when I snapped this picture.

[Melissa Murray]

You had an uncanny ability to capture so many of these just sort of fragments of moments that otherwise I think would have been lost to history. And you also captured his lighter side. So here's a photo of President Obama running with his dog Beau. How often did you catch him code switching between his work as president and then some of these lighter moments with his family?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Well, one thing I learned to. Well, one thing that I found out about Barack Obama is his schedule was just a starting point. I mean, things would happen throughout the day, every day that were not on the schedule. You see him running with Beau. If he saw Malia or Sasha out on the swing set, which was right outside the Oval Office, he might just walk outside the Oval Office for five minutes and have a conversation with his daughter. So I was always on the lookout for these unexpected moments.

[Melissa Murray]

Here's another unexpected moment. This one is of the President fist bumping custodian. Lawrence Lipscomb. How would you describe the President and the First Lady's relationship with the White House staff during those eight years?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Respectful. It's as simple as that. They were very respectful to the White House staff. Whether it was senior staff or the groundskeepers or the carpenters, he would always go out of his way to acknowledge them and thank them for the hard work that they were doing.

[Melissa Murray]

So I'm going to show another photo. This may be my all time favorite one because it shows the President being a little bit cheeky here. President Obama has his foot literally on the scale. A thumb or a foot on the scale, playing a prank on his trip director. How many times did you see the President display this kind of humor? Was this frequent or was this a one off?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

No, it was. You know, I think one of the things that people maybe don't realize is Barack Obama has a really good sense of humor. And, and I, I saw it play out behind the scenes quite, quite often. I mean, being President, United States is a very stressful job job, but at the same time, you've got to learn to have some fun. And he would, usually at the expense of the staff.

[Melissa Murray]

This last photo is perfect framing. It looks like the President is projecting a rainbow on. How'd you get this one? And can you plan for something like this?

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

This was just lucky. I mean, this was in Jamaica. We were about to leave and the rainbow was was forming as as he was about to run up the steps of Air Force One. And I've taken so many pictures of him, you know, just waving kind of traditional wave as you leave a city or a country. And I kind of knew where he usually stops to wave. And so I ran to a spot, literally turned around and shot this picture at just the right time. So it was a little bit of guesswork on my part. Part a lot of luck. And then to get the hand right in the rainbow was just extraordinary luck on my part.

[Melissa Murray]

I think you're being modest, Pete Souza. That was real genius. And thank you so much for helping us walk through these images and for your great work on this. Thank you.

[Ambassador Michael McFaul]

Thank you, Melissa.

[Melissa Murray]

All right, a quick programming note tonight. Michelle Norris will host Hope Comes Home inside the Obama Presidential center right here on Ms. Now at 9:00pm Eastern. That does it for me.

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