Two National Guard Members Shot Near White House

Summary

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The Beat with Ari Melber (Host: Michel Norris in for Ari Melber)

Episode: Two National Guard Members Shot Near White House

Date: November 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

This urgent episode covers the breaking news of a shooting near the White House in Washington, D.C., where two National Guard members from West Virginia were critically injured. The discussion explores the details of the incident, the ongoing investigation, the political response—including increased deployments of the National Guard and legal controversy surrounding that deployment—and reactions from key officials and analysts. Later segments touch on a separate investigation into Democratic lawmakers and economic issues affecting Thanksgiving costs.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Details of the Shooting Near the White House

• Incident Summary: Around 2:15 pm, two National Guardsmen were shot at close range near the White House. Both are in critical condition. The area was swiftly secured, and a suspect, also injured, was taken into custody.

• Law Enforcement Response:

  • The FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) is leading the investigation, considering possibly terrorism-related motives but with no conclusions yet.
  • D.C. officials and police described the attack as a "targeted" ambush.

• Eyewitness Accounts:

  • Bystanders described hearing multiple gunshots (“boom, boom” and “pop, pop, pop”), ensuing chaos, and witnessing responders tending to the injured (02:15-02:41).

2. Immediate & Political Response

• President and Pentagon Response:

  • President Trump, though not at the White House, was briefed and ordered the deployment of 500 additional National Guard troops, in addition to roughly 2,000 already stationed.
  • Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reaffirmed a strong stance on security:
    • “We will never back down. We will secure our capital. We will secure our cities.” (03:14-03:17)

• Legal and Political Controversy Over National Guard Deployment:

  • A federal judge recently ruled the current Guard deployment in D.C. illegal, but paused enforcement for appeal.
  • The administration is using the shooting as a justification for maintaining—possibly increasing—the deployment in D.C.

• Local and National Leader Statements:

  • Mayor Bowser called it a targeted attack, urging caution as there are many conflicting reports.
  • Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and other leaders condemned “political violence of all stripes” (05:45-06:30).

3. Emerging Details on the Investigation

• Nature and Motive of the Attack:

  • JTTF involvement signals heightened scrutiny and concern about targeted violence against federal officers.
  • The two National Guardsmen were reportedly clearly identifiable in uniform and were attacked without apparent provocation.

• Forensic and Investigative Efforts:

  • Investigators gathering extensive camera footage, digital footprints, and interviewing relatives to reconstruct the suspect’s background and motives.
  • The FBI Evidence Response Team working overnight to secure all physical evidence (shell casings, blood samples, etc.).
    • “They’re pulling all the footage—there are cameras every few feet in that area.” – Ken Delaney (11:03)

• Morale and Safety Concerns for Guard Members:

  • Discussion about the psychological toll and renewed sense of vulnerability for Guard members now operating with heightened awareness (09:59-10:33, 20:03-23:04).
  • “There needs to be a message sent to every National Guard member deployed...to make sure you remind them of their mission, that you remind them of how important their safety is.” – Tom Manger, former U.S. Capitol Police Chief (20:03)

4. Analysis: Law Enforcement and Security Expert Perspectives

• Investigative Complexity:

  • Michael Feinberg described a “bicycle wheel” approach involving parallel, fast-paced evidence gathering and interviews (“not a staircase, but spokes radiating out”) (25:31-26:43).

• Law Enforcement Ambushes:

  • Most shootings involving law enforcement happen at very close range, not from a distance as sometimes popularly imagined (29:29).

5. Additional Segment: FBI Investigation Into Democratic Lawmakers

• Lawmakers face inquiry after making a video urging troops to defy unlawful orders; the move is denounced as political reprisal.
• Andrew Weissman (former FBI counsel) sharply criticizes the FBI and Pentagon actions as unconstitutional:
  • “The only illegal action I see here is on the part of the government now doing these investigations.” – Andrew Weissman (33:33)
  • Cited First Amendment and legal standards for the FBI to open inquiries.
  • Concern over politicization and long-term damage to the FBI’s reputation and rule of law.

6. Thanksgiving Price Hikes and Economic Concerns

• Shoppers and analysts discuss the rising costs of groceries and essentials, attributed partly to tariffs and recent economic policy.
• Jared Bernstein, economist, details significant year-over-year grocery price inflation (40:37-41:25) and highlights other areas of household budget pressure.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scene:

  • “I was in the Uber. I heard boom, boom twice...What I heard were, you know, like pop, pop, pop.” – Bystander (02:15-02:26)
  • “As you see in the video, I see two National Guard members down, and people are working on them.” – Bystander (02:32)

• Law Enforcement Analysis:

  • “The JTTF has access to a number of databases...They've got more information than any one single agency would have.” – Tom Manger (15:05)
  • “You learn in the police academy that when you're in a crowd, you keep your head on a swivel.” – Tom Manger (20:03)

• Policy & Politics:

  • “We will never back down. We will secure our capital. We will secure our cities.” – Michael Feinberg, relaying Secretary Hegseth (03:14-03:17)
  • “Unlawful orders, that's the law. That is what you want.” – Andrew Weissman (34:05)

• Investigative Standards:

  • “The FBI cannot use First Amendment activity to investigate.” – Andrew Weissman (34:50)
  • “The overwhelming number of shootings in which law enforcement is one of the parties take place within a distance of 3 meters or less.” – Michael Feinberg (29:29)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Shooting Details & Initial Reports: 00:50 – 03:28
• Eyewitness Accounts: 02:15 – 02:41
• Security Response & Political Context: 03:02 – 03:28, 06:30 – 08:59
• Live Update from Shooting Scene: 04:04 – 05:45
• Law Enforcement Investigation Details: 06:47 – 12:05
• White House Correspondent on Lockdown: 12:21 – 14:40
• Capitol Police Chief (Tom Manger) on Multi-Agency Coordination & Officer Safety: 15:05 – 23:04
• FBI Analyst (Michael Feinberg) on Investigative Approach: 25:31 – 29:10
• Discussion of FBI Investigation into Lawmakers (Andrew Weissman): 33:33 – 39:30
• Economic Segment: Thanksgiving Prices: 39:54 – 42:37
• Recap & Final Update: 43:00 – 43:17

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Summary Takeaways

• Critical Security Event: The shooting of two National Guard members near the White House is considered a targeted attack and is under robust federal investigation.
• Escalating Tensions: The incident heightens political and legal debates over the ongoing and possibly expanded National Guard presence in D.C.
• Concern for Rule of Law: Experts warn of the erosion of civil rights and institutional norms amid growing executive branch assertiveness.
• Underlying National Stress: The episode also highlights economic anxieties (Thanksgiving price rises) that compound the national sense of insecurity and division.

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(Ads, sponsor messages, and unrelated content were omitted from this summary.)

Transcript

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Welcome to THE Beat. I'm Michel Norris. I'm in for Ari Melber. And we start tonight with breaking news out of the nation's capital. Tragic news. Two National Guardsmen from West Virginia were shot today just outside the White House complex in downtown D.C. fBI Director Kash Patel has said they are in critical condition. The West Virginia governor originally said both members were killed but later said there were, quote, conflicting reports. Now there's a lot that we do not know right now. This is a fast breaking story so we're going to be very careful in reporting on developments. Washington Mayor Mariel Bowser has said the attack appeared to be quote, total targeted the scene. And the scene and surrounding buildings are now secured. The police chief gave a press conference this evening.

[Ken Delaney]

The suspect came around the corner, raised.

[Tom Manger]

His arm with a firearm and discharged.

[Ken Delaney]

It at the National Guard members. The National Guard members there were other members that were in the area. They were able to, after some back.

[Kevin Fry]

And forth, able to subdue the individual.

[Ken Delaney]

And bring them into custody.

[Michel Norris]

Officials are saying a suspect was injured and is now in custody. FBI Director Kash Patel saying it will be treated as an assault on a federal officer. Bystanders describing the shooting to reporters earlier today.

[Akayla Gardner]

I was in the Uber.

[Michel Norris]

I heard boom, boom twice. I was looking at my cell phone and the Uber driver said, why are all these people running? What I heard were, you know, like pop, pop, pop.

[Ken Delaney]

But then boom, boom, boom. So immediately I went forward to see.

[Michel Norris]

What was going on.

[Ken Delaney]

And as you see in the video, I see two National Guard members down and people are working on them.

[Michel Norris]

Those are bystanders describing what they heard and saw earlier today. Donald Trump is not in the White House, but he has been briefed on the matter, we're told. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says that they will now be deploying 500 National Guard troops to Washington, D.C. that's additional troops. And administration officials were speaking out today.

[Ken Delaney]

It's a somber reminder that soldiers, whether.

[Kevin Fry]

They'Re active duty Reserve or National guard, our soldiers are the sword and the.

[Ken Delaney]

Shield of the United States of America.

[Michael Feinberg]

We will never back down.

[Ken Delaney]

We will secure our capital.

[Michael Feinberg]

We will secure our cities. President Trump has asked me, and I will ask the secretary of the army to the National Guard to, to add 500 additional troops, National Guardsmen to Washington.

[Michel Norris]

D.C. donald Trump's mobilization of the National Guard has been a political flashpoint nationwide. Troops have been present in D.C. since August, but they have not been making arrest. Days ago, a judge ordering the Trump administration to end the National Guard deployment in the city, but pausing that ruling for three weeks to give the administration time for appeal. Ms. NOW's Kevin Fry joins me now from the site of the shooting. Kevin, can you tell us the latest developments there?

[Michael Feinberg]

Right.

[Kevin Fry]

So we are just one block from the intersection where police say this all happened around 2:15pm this afternoon. That is when they say that this assailant went around the corner and, and basically shot at both of these two National Guard troops. Then there was some exchange, as the police have described it. And then ultimately that individual, individual, the shooter, was also detained. Notably, the mayor, as you already just laid out, described this as a targeted attack. Now, to just give you a sense of where things are right now, again, just to orient you, we are about a block, we're about three blocks where I'm standing from the White House. This scene about a block and a half, two blocks from the White House. Within the last 30 minutes or so, they began to bring in, and you can see some of it being set up now, new lighting equipment, barriers and so forth, as they are clearly preparing to set this up as a very enforced crime scene overnight. And obviously they are now working into the early dark hours here in Washington as they begin to collect evidence and route through this crime scene, which they already, I should note, expanded earlier on today. Beyond that, not to be too glib about it, of course, it is Thanksgiving, the long holiday weekend. There are plenty of tourists wandering around here in town, many onlookers and some people just trying to retrieve their cars, which are behind this police tape. So Life goes on here in the city beyond the couple blocks that this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Crime scene occupies, normally a very busy.

[Michel Norris]

Part of the city, perhaps less so because it is the eve of Thanksgiving. The question about the notion this might have been a targeted attack, some have used the word ambush. Is there any other information about that?

[Kevin Fry]

We've not received anything yet, and I would defer to our various law enforcement reporters for more information on that front. But they did indicate at this press conference, as I just mentioned, that this individual or these these National Guard troops were going around the corner and they were both attacked. There are reports that they were both in fatigue, so they were clearly identifiable as National Guard troops, which that has led to, as one might expect in this very heated environment we are in. You have seen comments from folks like Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, the top Democrat in the House, for example, coming out and saying that they condemn political violence of all stripes, obviously trying to get ahead of any snowballing narratives that might emerge, as we've seen in recent shootings over the last several months.

[Michel Norris]

Kevin, thank you very much.

[Kevin Fry]

No problem.

[Michel Norris]

We turn now to justice and Intelligence reporter Ken Delaney, and he joins me now. Ken, is there any other news that you have been able to learn about the suspect or any kind of motive?

[Ken Delaney]

MICHEL we do have some new news at this hour, which is that two law enforcement sources tell my colleague Mark Santia and me that the Joint Terrorism Task Force, the FBI's JT in Washington, D.C. is taking the lead in this investigation and examining whether there is a terrorism motive here. That doesn't mean they've concluded there was a terrorist motive, but because this was a targeted attack, and it's very clear that law enforcement has concluded this was a targeted attack, an ambush targeting these uniformed National Guard members, that the JTTF is taking the lead and considering this an attack on a federal officer. And now they're trying to figure out what exactly the motive was. And of course, they're working backwards. They've got suspect in custody. They're working to identify this suspect. The suspect was shot and wounded, so it's not clear whether they're able to talk to the suspect. But there's a lot of there were a lot of cameras in that area around the Metro station one block from the White House. So they're examining all that footage they're going through. They're trying to determine if they have an identity. And the suspect, they're going through his digital footprint, interviewing relatives, all trying to piece together a possible motive. But they made clear during the news conference that the suspect, armed with a handgun, rounded the corner, pointed the gun at the Sioux National Guard members and shot them in the head. So there's no doubt in the minds of the law enforcement sources we're talking to that this was a targeted attack and it's being investigated as such. And it's important to point out that the National Guard has been deployed here for some months. 2,000 National Guard members. They are armed, but they are not making arrests, by and large, although the deployment has been challenged legally and as you said, a federal judge ruled a few days ago that it was illegal. The Trump administration now appealing that ruling. It's been fairly non controversial. The mayor of D.C. sort of made her peace with having these troops here patrolling the streets. They're often seen milling about on their phones. They've engaged in beautification efforts. They've picked up trash. They are not, for the most part, doing anything that is arousing the ire of people on the streets of D.C. and so it's perplexing and it's going to be a mystery that law enforcement is going to try to solve what exactly motivated this attack, Michelangelo?

[Michel Norris]

The Guardsmen Guard members were told were armed and that has been somewhat controversial. It was a decision made in August that they were allowed to carry firearms. Can you say a little bit about that, Ken?

[Ken Delaney]

Yes, that's right. Even though they don't have arrest powers, initially many of them were not armed and then a decision was made to arm them. I'm not aware of any reports that they've ever discharged their weapons in D.C. and again, these are people from all around the country. These were from West Virginia who did not volunteer to be there. They were ordered to be there by their commanding officer and ultimately by the President of the United States. And they were working these two people the day before Thanksgiving and this tragedy has ensued.

[Michel Norris]

And yes, the day before Thanksgiving, their family members obviously waiting to hear. Guards members often live very closely together. So this is something that would affect not just those that were shot, but the entire unit, I imagine.

[Ken Delaney]

Yeah, absolutely. And I've been wondering tonight how it's going to affect the rest of the D.C. the Guard members deployed in D.C. who probably until this moment had not perceived themselves to be under any kind of threat. And now they may think differently. And they are going to be walking around an American city, as you point out, armed now cognizant of the fact that two of their fellow soldiers were attacked and shot and are in critical condition right now in Hong Kong. And that's a terrible Situation for all involved.

[Michel Norris]

Yeah. And we should note these Guards members were reportedly from West Virginia. They are National Guards members here from Mississippi, Tennessee, Ohio, Louisiana. A couple of thousand of them all together and 500 more on their way. One last question, Ken. There are so many cameras in that area. Can you talk a little bit about what the investigation will start to look like in terms of the cameras, the text records, you know, all the material that they're going to try to gather to figure out what happened?

[Ken Delaney]

Yes, they're absolutely. Particularly because that was at a Metro station, there are lots of cameras. Probably every few feet there are cameras. So they're pulling all that footage. And depending on whether they have an identity yet of this suspect, and no doubt they will soon, if they don't already. If they have the identity, then they are able to quickly prepare search warrants and obtain all of his digital footprints, his social media accounts, email, texts, all that stuff to try to figure out what was his frame of mind. They will be able to interview relatives, family members, and try to piece together this suspect's movements. They want to figure out exactly where he was before the shooting. They said during the news conference that they didn't know exactly what type of weapon this was, but they will obviously make that determination through ballistics and try to figure out where the weapon was obtained. So all the usual things, but the most important thing really is determining the motive here. And again, the Joint Terrorism Task Force now taking the lead on this investigation and looking into whether there was a terrorist motive here, Michelle Candelane.

[Michel Norris]

And thank you very much.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You bet.

[Michel Norris]

We turn now to White House correspondent Akayla Gardner. She was inside the briefing room in the building when it was shut down. Akayla, can you describe what that afternoon was like?

[Akayla Gardner]

Well, Michelle, all the reporters and photographers who were gathered here on the White House North Lawn were suddenly rushed inside. We didn't initially understand what was happening, but the Secret Service literally locked the door so we could not exit the press briefing room. Of course, we now know that two National Guard members were shot, and that is why we were remaining inside, sheltering in place, if you will. We were in there for about an hour, but a few hours ago, we were allowed to leave. And reporters are now allowed to come and go from the White House complex now, complex now, but the president today said that he was briefed, but he and other law enforcement officials are calling for the suspect involved to be prosecuted to the highest extent. And this all comes after the Trump administration appealed a decision from a federal judge saying that this deployment of The National Guard was unlawful. But President Trump has very much viewed this deployment as key to an effort that he calls making D.C. safe again. And so the message that we heard from Secretary Hegseth today from the Pentagon is we will not back down. He said that reframe several times today to reporters. And he is now asking for an additional 500 National Guard troops to be deployed to D.C. adding to about 2,000 that are already stationed here in the nation's capital.

[Michel Norris]

As you note, U.S. district Judge Gia Cobb upheld the injunction and said that this, that the White House was overstepping their boundaries here and that this was in violation of the Home Rule act, allowing the District to basically manage itself. What is the justification for sending the additional 500 troops to D.C.

[Akayla Gardner]

Well, in Hexa's words today, he said that today's shooting, in his words, only stiffens our resolve to ensure that we make Washington safe and beautiful. So it seems that it is a direct response to today's attack. And the message is largely that they are doubling down on keeping these troops here. There was a court filing that suggested that we could see troops remaining in D.C. until 2026, the summer the nation's capital is going to be celebrating America's 250th anniversary. The administration certainly hopes that these troops stay here even though this deployment remains on shaky legal ground.

[Michel Norris]

Akela, thank you very much. And joining me now is Tom Manger, former U.S. capitol Police chief and law enforcement analyst. Tom, so glad that you're with us tonight as this story unfolds. We just heard from Ken a little bit about what the investigation will look like. I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about that also from your perspective.

[Tom Manger]

So the fact that the Joint Terrorism Task Force is involved is really not a surprise. I mean, these are the folks that are the experts and can find out if this individual has any background, any past that would indicate that there was or indicate a motive involved with this shooting. The JTTF has access to a number of databases. Every JTTF, certainly the one in D.C. has representatives from so many national, state and local police departments, have analysts in that jttf. So they've got really more information than any one single agency would have in terms of trying to delve into the background of this individual. Now, the suspect has not been identified as of yet. And I will say that the. But what I can tell you is that this suspect was reportedly shot. And so when he went to the hospital, he is being treated like a patient by the medical personnel there. And the Law enforcement may have had little access, little to no access to speak with this individual. If the medical professionals felt that they had work to do and they can't wait to have law enforcement interview this individual. Individual, they will interview him eventually, but it will be when the medical personnel think that he is, is that they're done their work and he can allow law enforcement to question this person there. I can recall a case where very quickly law enforcement was able to get a single fingerprint from, from a suspect and the fingerprint did come up with the identification of the individual. So whether that technology's we don't know at this point. But I know that law enforcement is on top of this issue about identifying the suspect as quickly as they can. It was mentioned earlier that they brought lights in and they were still working the crime scene. They have to make sure that they have every bit of evidence, every shell casing, every bit of blood evidence, anything that can be used and that would be used for prosecution of this case. At some point they've got to have everything. You can't just say, well, we know that this guy, you know, shot the officers. You've got to have the evidence to prove that that occurred. And whether it's video evidence, whether it's linking the gun that was in his hand to the shell casings that, that came out of that weapon, it's all of that inform, all of that work still needs to be done. And that work will likely go through the night to make sure that they have everything that they need.

[Michel Norris]

Now, people watching this outside of Washington may not understand just how close this actually is to the White House, not far from the nation's Capitol either because of the geography and because this involved two Guards members. Will they National Guards members, will that have a particular impact on the way they carry out the investigation?

[Tom Manger]

Not so much. I mean, this is, you know, in Washington, D.C. we are very used to working collaboratively multi agency involved in investigations. It's not unusual for the FBI and the Metropolitan Police Department, the FBI and the Capitol Police to work together on cases to ensure that you have all the resources that you need to pull a good case together for prosecution. So while this is a tragic case and it just, just breaks my heart for the National Guard and all of its members, for the families of these two Guardsmen that have been shot. We have worked these kinds of cases before. Whether it's an assassination attempt of the President Reagan, when he was shot outside of that hotel. We're used to working these cases. We're used to all of These jurisdictions having a piece of the investigation. And so the fact that it was near the White House, the fact that it was in D.C. this is what we do every day.

[Michel Norris]

One last question, Tom. Do you imagine what they might be telling the other National Guards members who are here, far away from home, who will be patrolling the city and the other 500 that will be coming here in terms of their safety and their morale?

[Tom Manger]

So that is such an insightful question, because there needs to be a message sent to every National Guard member deployed in Washington, D.C. frankly, every national Guard member who's deployed in any city around this country, to make sure you remind them of their mission, that you remind them of how important their safety is. There may be some information that's put out about some. Some precautions that can be taken. I will tell you that you learn in the police academy that when you're in a crowd, you keep your head on a swivel. You're always looking at who's around you. You're always looking at people's hands. And it's not paranoia, it's just becomes second nature to you. And that's why it was interesting that Chief Carroll talked about the fact that this individual came from around the corner. So these, these Guardsmen very likely were taken by surprise. That's why I think the, the term ambush is appropriate in this. In this case. And so did they have enough time to even react? Even if they would have seen this individual with a gun in his hand? Did they have time to react? And, you know, but I will tell you that, that a lot of cops would are, you don't see them generally standing in. In one place without making, you know, and if they are, they're watching what's going on all around them to ensure that if anything suspicious happens, if they see someone acting strangely, that they can react to it. And you try to stand in such a way that someone can't come and surprise you, that you can see people approaching from all different sides. And just to put a fine point on that, when I was a young cop and I was going to sit and write a report somewhere, especially at night, you would back in to a parking spot or back into a space where you had like a building or a brick wall behind you so that you could see, you know, somebody couldn't come from behind you. They'd have to come from in front of you where you might see them. And again, not paranoia, it's just officer safety techniques. So this might be part of a message that, that the, the Guardsmen get. But their leadership does need to talk to them about this. This is a traumatic thing for every single guardsman they've lost or certainly may lose, you know, two leagues. We pray that these guardsmen do recover, but they're in critical condition and it's still up in the air. So we got to pray for that. But the guardsmen need to hear a message from their leadership about this and to make sure that they feel safe, they feel supported and that they understand their purpose and how they should react to this.

[Michel Norris]

Yeah. Yeah. Holding the guardsmen that were shot today, their families and really all of them that are patrolling cities in prayer right now. Tom, thank you very much.

[Tom Manger]

Thank you.

[Michel Norris]

We will have more on the shooting tragedy, plus the day's other news when we're back in just 90 seconds.

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[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, of course. I think that there is a sort of mistaken assumption by most of the public that investigations like this proceed very linearly. They're people assume they're sort of like a staircase where you take one step at a time, and with each step you get a little bit it more of an unobstructed view of what happened. There's an element of that, but what's actually going on is more akin to a bicycle wheel with a lot of different spokes, different investigative techniques occurring at the same time and reporting to a central hub or command post that's making sense of this. So you're going to have one group of people that is going to spend the next 24 hours fastidiously combing the scene of the crime. That's largely going to be the FBI's evidence response team. And depending what they find, they may bring in individuals who are specialists with hazardous devices or forensic testing or measurements or something along those lines. At the same time, you're going to have.

[Michel Norris]

No, go ahead, please.

[Michael Feinberg]

At the same time, you're going to have another group of agents conducting potentially dozens, if not hundreds of interviews of all of the suspect's known associates. Then you're going to have another group of both agents and prosecutors swearing out search warrants to look at phone records, email records, laptop hard drives, things like that. And you'll also have a group of analysts combing through everything that the other groups find. So it's not going to proceed necessarily in an organized fashion. Different groups are going to have different breaks at different points in time. But as long as everybody's moving, moving forward, each minute they get closer and closer to figuring out what motive what.

[Michel Norris]

Here we've seen a little bit of video where it looks like the suspect is on the ground, several people are on top of them. There's a lot of movement. National Guardsmen, it looks like police. It looks like there's a bystander who may have been out for a run. He's got shorts and running shoes on. Have you seen that video? And what can you glean from that? There's a lot of broken glass. It's hard to make sense of a situation like this because you can't imagine that the suspect thought that they were going to, you know, run away and get away, since they were targeting people who are armed and in a. In A place that is so heavily policed.

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, that's an important thing to note. We should not at this point necessarily make the assumption that the assailant is a rational individual. There is a very good chance that the sort of person who would go and try to murder two National Guardsmen is also the sort of person who would not be thinking about the short term or even long term consequences. It may have been a fastidiously planned assassination where he or she did have an exit strategy that got stimmied by other law enforcement on duty. It could be the situation that the person wasn't thinking more than five minutes ahead. I'm reluctant to say how we should view their planning and motivations given how little we know. And I'd apply that to the video too. You know, we see a bunch of law enforcement and National Guardsmen on top of fighting with the subject, but we don't know what led up to that. We don't know what happens after the cameras stop rolling. All we know is that at some point there was a physical altercation with him or her where he was subdued.

[Michel Norris]

One last question. We in this country have sadly seen so many cases where people are shooting from a distance, top of a building or in a window of some kind. This was at close, close range, walking around a corner and pulling out a gun. Does that tell you anything?

[Jared Bernstein]

No.

[Michael Feinberg]

Believe it or not, and this is not a widely known fact, the overwhelming number of shootings in which law enforcement is one of the parties take place within a distance of 3 meters or less. This is actually much more common than a long range shot from a rifle or a drive by from a vehicle on the other side of the street. Most law enforcement involved shootings are unfortunately up close, personal and very nasty.

[Michel Norris]

Michael Feinberg, thank you very much for being with us this evening.

[Michael Feinberg]

Thank you for having me.

[Michel Norris]

Up next, Andrew Weissman is here on the FBI investigating Democratic lawmaker. Stay with us us.

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[Michel Norris]

Welcome back. We turn now to the FBI's highly unusual investigation of Democratic lawmakers in Congress. Congress. Those lawmakers made a video urging US Troops to defy illegal orders. The FBI now contacting them for interviews. Senator Elisa Slotkin confirming the inquiry on social media, writing, quote, the president directing the FBI to target us is exactly why we made this video in the first place. The Pentagon saying it is investigating retired Navy officer Senator Mark Kelly for that video. Kelly condemning the move as an act of intimidation.

[Ken Delaney]

He's trying to get some fear out.

[Tom Manger]

There and fear can be contagious. But what also can be contagious is courage and patriotism. He is sending a pretty strong message. You do not want to cross him and your loyalty should be to him. It should not. It should always be to the Constitution.

[Michel Norris]

This is all part of Donald Trump's goal to prosecute his perceived enemies. Reuters tallying at least 470 retribution targets so far. Joining me now is Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel and former Mueller prosecutor. Thank you so much for being with us. What is your reaction to the Pentagon threatening to recall Senator Mark Kelly and prosecute him under under military law, potentially. Is there any kind of legal precedent for this kind of thing?

[Ryan Reynolds]

And in addition to the Pentagon, you have the FBI doing investigations of the other people. And by the way, all of them have law enforcement background. I was the FBI general counsel, so I'm going to start with that because I know it the best. The only illegal action I see here is on the part of the government now doing these investigations. And this is why the video itself, you may disagree with it as a policy matter, you may agree with it as a policy matter, but it is stating the law. It is true that there is an obligation for military officers not to follow unlawful orders. Just to be clear. Unlawful orders, that's the law. That is what you want. And to me, I don't understand why anyone in the government now would be taking issue with that. Are they saying that people should follow unlawful orders now to turn just quickly to the FBI? The FBI is not legally entitled to investigate somebody unless they have factual predication. That means they have to have a reason. They have to have facts to warn warrant it. Saying something, speaking and saying something that is true is protected by the First Amendment. The FBI, its internal rules, the Attorney General rules, say that the FBI cannot use First Amendment activity to investigate. So for them to open and to be looking at this is an unlawful use of their authority according to the Attorney General's own guidelines, which they have not repudiated.

[Michel Norris]

So if they don't have factual predication, can the members who are being investigated refuse to comply?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, they can refuse. You just be clear, if it's a voluntary interview, if they have not been subpoenaed, if they've only been asked to be interviewed, they have the same right that anybody has that you have, that I have. If it's a voluntary interview and you haven't been subpoenaed, you can tell the government, I don't want to do that. I have, I want to get a. You can, you want to read a book, you want to spend the time at Thanksgiving with your family and friends, you have no obligation at all. Of course they can decide that they will, will do it. But to me, the, the harm here is, as was said, there's the intimidation and the fear. But these people have a First Amendment right that is being abridged by our government. And that to me is, you know, the story here is really the government action, not the action of the people on a video that says something that is truthful.

[Michel Norris]

Donald Trump has a long history of filing lawsuits that many have deemed to be, I think the phrase is often used, nuisance lawsuits to tie people up, even if that doesn't actually, actually lead to some sort of adjudication. Some have said that that is essentially what he's doing with the DOJ and now with potentially military tribunals, that seems to be a very bad precedent to set. Using government lawyers to do that kind of thing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There's so many things to say about that. But today is a day where the 11th Circuit, the court of appeals overseeing a southern part of the country, country affirmed a one million dollar penalty against Donald Trump for bringing just the kind of lawsuit, a civil suit that was was deemed by the district court to be harassing. So it's very timely for you to bring this up. The thing that's different here is it's not just civil suits that he's bringing. He is, because he is now the president of the United States. He is bringing criminal actions, whether it's now through the Pentagon trying to do this with respect to Mr. Kelly or doing it through the Department of Justice with James Comey and Letitia James, who have just won a dismissal of both of their indictments.

[Michel Norris]

We began this broadcast talking about, you know, the FBI and an investigation, a very important investigation into a shooting here in the nation's capital. Absolutely. When these kinds of things are happening, are you concerned, as someone who worked in at the FBI for so many years, about the reputation of the FBI and the trust that it holds that the American people hold in that institution?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, when I see the reporting of what happened today, the first thought I have is my heart goes out to the members of the National Guard. They are law enforcement. It is particularly poignant given that it is the day before Thanksgiving, but it would be a tragedy no matter when. And so I think about the National Guard, I think about the safety of the FBI and want to make sure that the attacking law enforcement is never justified. Even if you think that law enforcement is doing something wrong, that the answer is not obviously, you know, picking up a weapon or any other, any other type of device. So that's sort of my first reaction to this. But in terms of the FBI, which I used to work at, I mean, I'm very concerned about the politicization of it, about how it's going to ever recover. I think that they're owed better leadership, better role models, and they have rules that they're supposed to follow. So to me, that the all of those things are of sort of grave concern. And what we're talking about in this segment is really what causes that me to have that grave concern. It's just that they're doing something that violates the First Amendment of the United States.

[Michel Norris]

Andrew Weissman, thank you very much.

[Tom Manger]

You're welcome.

[Michel Norris]

Up next, why millions of Americans are experiencing Thanksgiving sticker shock. Stay with us. Tariffs are pushing prices higher for this Thanksgiving and people are Feeling the squeeze in their wallets.

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[Michel Norris]

It's definitely higher than last year. Do these people know that we have to eat to survive? Joining me now is Jared Bernstein. He's former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors. Thanks for being with us. While you just heard people talking about how expensive everything is, how much of that is tied the Trump tariffs?

[Jared Bernstein]

Well, if you look at inflation for groceries, Michelle, and you go back about a year ago, it was 1.3%. Update that to September. That's the most recent data, 2.7%. So really inflation growing twice as quickly for groceries. Now, that's a technical number that most people that you just heard from aren't tracking, you know, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data, but they're sure well tracking what they're paying at the groceries. And you know, Brazilian tariffs on Brazilian coffee have really been a problem for folks. Ground coffee beans are up double digits. Same with beef, by the way. That's partly tariffs. It's also drought. So there are a lot of conditions making life tough for shoppers and also for farmers.

[Michel Norris]

We should remember Donald Trump had pledged to bring prices down. We haven't seen that. Do you see other trouble spots in the economy beyond groceries and beyond what you put on the table at Thanksgiving?

[Jared Bernstein]

Thanksgiving, I think it's very important to go exactly there, Michel, because, you know, Thanksgiving is obviously something we're all thinking about at the moment and we're all shopping for at the moment. Myself, I walked out of a grocery store earlier today and looking at the receipt just like everybody else. But if you think about healthcare, being able to afford healthcare, you know, I think is a basic human right, especially in a wealthy country like ours. And yet we know because of budget changes that Republicans made in their big budget bill bill that the coverage cost affording healthcare premiums are going to double for over 20 million people who get their coverage through the exchanges on the Affordable Care Act. That is something that has people very stressed out right now. We know that housing costs, we know that childcare costs, electricity costs, all of these are on the affordability list. And they're challenges for Americans across the board.

[Tom Manger]

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[Michel Norris]

Jared, thank you very much. Enjoy your holiday.

[Jared Bernstein]

Thank you.

[Michel Norris]

We, we'll be right back. Just to recap what we've been reporting this hour, two National Guardsmen were shot in Washington, DC. They are both reportedly in critical condition. Authorities believe this was a targeted attack.

[Kevin Fry]

The suspect came around the corner, raised.

[Tom Manger]

His arm with a firearm and discharged.

[Ken Delaney]

It at the National Guard members. The National Guard members there were other members that were in the area. They were able to, after some back.

[Kevin Fry]

And forth, able to subdue the individual and bring them into custody.

[Michel Norris]

The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force is leading the investigation. That does it for me. I hope your travels are safe and your Thanksgiving is back. The weeknight is up next.

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