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The Beauty Brains
Cleaner, Safer, Better? Sorting Fact from Fiction in Today’s Beauty Buzz - episode 414
00:52:47
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Perry, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Hello and welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 414. I'm your host, Perry Romanowski, and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie.
- [00:30]
B
Hi, Perry.
- [00:31]
A
Hey, Valerie. We got a big show today. On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions, including, can you mix sunscreen to change the tint of a product? Is California naturals a good hair care option? How do you talk to a clean beauty believer? And how do you control frizz? And finally, what's wrong with desylglucoside in your hair care products? But first, some chit chat. Valerie, how are you this fine morning?
- [00:57]
B
I'm, you know, a little bit of a wreck, Perry. We're gonna be in New York next week.
- [01:04]
A
That's already next week. Wow.
- [01:06]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I.
- [01:07]
A
It's coming up.
- [01:08]
B
Nervous about the weather. It's cold. We're traveling with Baby C. Mr. Cosmetic Chemist is coming with me. And I'm mostly excited for the show. In case you guys haven't heard, Perry and I are attending a seminar, scientific seminar, called SCC 79. It's the 79th Society of Cosmetic Chemists Scientific showcase, where basically everyone comes together and there's research, presentations, posters, social events, camaraderie, etc. Although I don't go to the social events because of flashing lights. But anyway, Perry and I go every year, and I'm excited to see you.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah, it should be very exciting. I'm looking forward to seeing you in person. And hopefully the weather holds out. You know, here in Chicago, we just got like 8 inches of snow or something.
- [01:55]
B
Oh, that's terrible.
- [01:56]
A
And you know what? It's strange. I go in the back and I shovel. Like, why am I shoveling the back? Because I don't really use it. But I shovel it because I don't like to see all the cats get their paws all snowy. So I shove a little path room.
- [02:11]
B
Oh, I bet you they appreciate it.
- [02:14]
A
Yeah, I think they do. So it's a little bit of work, but, you know, what are these guys gonna do? I see them just buried in the snow, and it gets in their fur and it just makes me feel bad. So. So that's. I do all this extra work for these little cats.
- [02:29]
B
Do you have a cat condo or someplace they can stay warm on your porch?
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A
I have about four shelters, so some of them are hay Filled. Some of them have like a heating pad in it. So they have options and they use them. Oh yeah, yeah they do for sure.
- [02:47]
B
Oh, that's so cute. I love it.
- [02:52]
A
Speaking of love, how about we head right into beauty news? Well, here's a product that I used to work with a bit and it's interesting, it's in the news. The new opinion is issued on tea tree oil in products. The EU has issued their final opinion on tea tree oil for the use in cosmetics. You know this is. Some people believe that it just because something's natural, it's good to use. But you know, there are limits to natural stuff. And apparently the which is the regulatory body in Europe. They have determined that you can use tea tree oil up to 2% in shampoo or a rinse off product, 1% in a shower or body wash and 1% in a face wash which are all rinse off and then in a leave on you can only use it at 0.1%. So those are pretty low levels. But you know what, I'm not sure you'd want to use tea tree oil at any higher than those levels anyway because it is quite an odor.
- [03:57]
B
Oh yeah, it has a very unique odor. As you know, I worked at a brand that was famous for, is famous, I should say, for tea tree oil products and I found it interesting that sccs did actually lower some of these levels because, because for example, I think the previous leave on restriction was half a percent. It looks like they lowered it to 0.1 and some of the rinse offs were higher. So that's very interesting. So basically Perry, what happened is the SCCS didn't arbitrarily say hey, let's re review tea tree oil. They were actually pushed to do it because the European Chemicals Agency is responsible for, you know, assessing basically the risk of chemicals in Europe regardless of their use case. So this restriction wasn't necessarily pushed for cosmetics, but for any use case anywhere, pretty much. And Poland is the country that pushed the ECHA to classify tea tree oil as a reprotoxic substance, meaning it's potentially harmful to reproduction.
- [05:05]
A
So the regulators in Poland were just extra afraid of it or did they see some data that got them interested? Like how does that happen?
- [05:13]
B
Well, essentially there were a couple studies that did show tea tree oil is reproductively toxic, but it was in studies where rats were force fed oral doses of tea tree oil. And over time they did develop reproductive toxicity, but the doses were pretty high. And eating tea tree oil is not a common use case scenario.
- [05:36]
A
And it not in cosmetics anyway, shouldn't.
- [05:39]
B
Be extrapolated to cosmetics. So nonetheless, Poland for many years has been pushing. This isn't a recent development. And finally they said, okay, well, for use in cosmetics, can the sccs, which is an independent body of scientists, look at all the available data on tea tree oil and relook at it? And essentially the SCCS said, well, we believe it's safe for use at these levels in rinse off and these levels in leave on. And that hasn't changed, it's not banned, just restricted. And it looks like the use levels are restricted a little bit further. Now, there's one catch.
- [06:21]
A
What's that?
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B
They are saying you can only use ISO standard tea tree oil.
- [06:28]
A
Is there. There are different ones. So is that like pharmaceutical grade or something? Is that how that works?
- [06:33]
B
Well, not really. So tea tree oil is a natural plant substance and it's farmed in certain areas of the world. For example Australia, it's also grown in China. And it's very easy to get adulterated tea tree oil where they've essentially cut tea tree oil like real tea tree oil, which can be expensive, it's highly suspect to crop challenges. They basically cut it with eucalyptus oil, which has a similar scent profile, but it's insanely less expensive. But right, there is testing you can do to determine that you're actually getting true authentic table tea tree oil. Because eucalyptus oil and tea tree oil have different isomers present in them. And essentially there's an international standard created that says, hey, real tea tree oil has this basically this isomer profile to it and this specific allergen profile to it. And if you are not in those ratios, you essentially don't have, you know, a standard of tea tree oil that should be called tea tree oil. As a politician, you shouldn't be using it.
- [07:49]
A
Right, yeah.
- [07:51]
B
So very important to look for terms like real Australian tea tree oil. Usually they're not adulterating tea tree oil out of Australia, they're famous for it and they would not, would not do that. But it's usually a problem when the tea tree oil comes from other countries that it's adulterated.
- [08:10]
A
I could imagine if you're a small cosmetic manufacturer and you want to use tea tree oil, you're going to see some suppliers that are charging a lot of money for it and then some suppliers that are charging a little bit money for it and you'll go for the cheaper one. Right?
- [08:24]
B
Yeah.
- [08:25]
A
And that's. You're probably not buying tea tree oil.
- [08:28]
B
Yeah. So if you are a user of tea tree oil. Please make sure your tea tree oil has on the certificate of analysis that it meets the ISO standard.
- [08:37]
A
Be, be careful out there. Apparently if you're a rat and you get force fed it, it could cause problems. Don't eat your tea tree oil.
- [08:48]
B
Well, I saw an article that really just did not surprise me and what inspired me for us to talk about it, and I know you also have a lot of expertise on this matter is a lot of unregulated masks are flooding the market.
- [09:05]
A
Yeah, you see a lot of these. The thing about beauty devices is that they are still, they're regulated by the fda, but they're not regulated in the same way. And often you'll see something that's FDA approved or fda. FDA approved I think is usually the claim you see, but that only means that it's not, not dangerous to use, I guess, or you know, like if it's a, like this, this story was about LED masks. And so there's a certain level of LED power or wavelengths that can go out before it's considered safe to use for a consumer. So there's, they have to throttle them down so it doesn't emit too much. And when something is FDA approved, that's kind of what they go for. And so you'll see that claim that doesn't mean FDA approved does not mean that it works or the FDA says that it works. It's just that it's safe to use.
- [10:02]
B
Over the last week I saw two influencers. One was, you know, just an online science communicator and the other was a dermatologist saying that these particular devices they were advocating for were FDA approved to work for a specific situation. And I was like, come on guys, you know better than to push that the FDA has not approve them, that they work to do what they're purported to do. It's just that they're not going to hurt a consumer, as you said. So I was a little disappointed because people look to influencers of certain statures for honest information and that felt a little either from a place of not knowing or from a place of dishonesty. Or maybe the brand that they were pushing for asked them to say that sometimes when you take ads or paid content or partner content, you have a list of stuff they, they want you to say and in exchange money you basically do that. So I don't know what happened in that situation, but it's very important to know that just because something says FDA approved doesn't mean that they work the application process to become A medical device which is essentially what these LED masks are, what these scalp helmets are that are purported to help grow hair. They do have to have a specific medical device application filled out. It's a very arduous process. But you can be a new device manufacturer or distributor or reseller coming to market and you can leverage another company's application. But again, that doesn't mean they're all doing the same thing. And maybe some of these devices aren't even registered, I would bet.
- [11:39]
A
Right. This story focused on the asa, which is the Advertising Standards Authority. And, and they recently out of the UK and they recently issued a warning to LED mask manufacturers that are making medical claims about treating skin conditions and specifically acne and rosacea. These products, the most of these products have not been verified to work on those conditions. There are some research studies that maybe they show benefits to it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the product that you can buy at home is going to have those same impacts.
- [12:17]
B
And is the device going to emit the quality that it's going to over a certain period of time as well? I just have so many questions about devices and they have such a low adoption rate with consumers. I'm just not a device fan. I'm not.
- [12:34]
A
I really think that this time of year people are looking to buy presents for people and so buying a mask like, oh, this is going to cure your acne. You don't have to put creams on and people will try it one or two times and then they'll just gather dust in your, in your drawer. So I don't know, I don't think these things are terribly helpful. Despite, you know, what the one or two studies of her specifically controlled conditions might have shown. I don't think the general consumer is going to notice big improvements in their skin by using these things.
- [13:08]
B
But not many studies have actually been done with the device manufacturers themselves. Right. Right.
- [13:14]
A
No, just the whole idea of red light exposure and stuff.
- [13:17]
B
And, and there's a whole spectrum of red wavelengths. Right. So it's.
- [13:21]
A
Right.
- [13:21]
B
Are you at the weight? Is your device at the wavelength that that study was done at? And I even, I think one of the studies that I, I saw being referenced in some Instagram comments said, oh, well, it's only a 2.9% difference in. Right. Growth or whatever the claim was. And it's like, well, 2.9%. Is that noticeable though? I don't know, maybe it is.
- [13:42]
A
Hey, it's always like I say, if you do a treatment, there are three things that can happen. It can get better, it can get worse, or there'll be no change. And that's exactly the same thing that could happen if you do nothing. So it's just really hard to say that, oh, I use this mask for a month and my skin got better. It's like, well, if you didn't use the mask for a month, your skin might have got better anyway. So we don't know what the cause of it. It's very hard to prove that something that a treatment is working. You just need a lot of experiments and a lot of data, and there just isn't that for these LED masks.
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B
Exactly.
- [14:20]
A
I did see one other study. You know, we're coming. I always look for innovation, and I saw this article about seven hair care launches that are driving the future of product development. I just. I'll just name these off and then get your thoughts on it. So. So they talk about the hair care category is the place for innovation right now. And I've been in hair care for tons of years, as have you. And so let's see what they think is really innovative. The first thing is that Neutrogena has a hair restore range. So Neutrogena is entering the the category with a 5 product range. Developed by dermatologists, it's formulated with skin actives that help support hair growth and scalp health. I mean, this has been done not by Neutrogena, but how is this new?
- [15:08]
B
It's not. I mean, really like peptides to restore hair density and reduce shedding. That's a drug claim a powdered collagen drink supplement, which.
- [15:19]
A
Oh, come on. Really?
- [15:21]
B
Everyone knows how Perry feels about those. I just don't think it's innovative.
- [15:27]
A
No. All right, well, let's see. How about this next one? Amica Hydro Rush. Intense moisture leave in conditioner. Says it leaves your hair hydrated for 72 hours. And it's using hyaluronic acid.
- [15:42]
B
I mean, well, you know, hyaluronic acid, depending on the type that you can use, can improve the frizz character of hair. So I don't know what they used in this product. I generally like Amica products. You know, I'm not adverse to them. I like the scent. You know, my people in my lab like the scent. And I'm always like, sure, you know, you like the scent of girls. My.
- [16:07]
A
How does. How does. How does Doug like the scent?
- [16:09]
B
Doug likes everything. But Mr. Cosmetic Chemist, I had used an Amica product that I really love. I actually buy it and rebuy it and rebuy it and it's basically a dupe. Or, you know, a similar concept on the Micellar eight second Wonder water, except I think it smells better and works better on the hair. Anyway, Mr. Cosmetic Chemist hates it. He's like, what smells like a diaper? And I use it. I really like the Amika products, but innovative. I don't know.
- [16:42]
A
Yeah, I mean, people have put hyaluronic acid in products before. All right, then there's the color. Wow. Texas hold'. Em. Big Hold Hairspray.
- [16:53]
B
Well, I like the name. It's very clever. I again, I just don't know if it's innovative. I mean, they claim it contains 50% less alcohol than typical formulas. I'd love to pull the safety data sheet and see what the alcohol content is that would have to be declared on there. It could be in reference to, like, old formulas or maybe dry shampoos that have tons of alcohol and then they would just be hitting the maximum limit for the law. So, for example, if a dry shampoo contains, you know, 95% alcohol, or let's say it's an old style shampoo and contain 80% alcohol, and then they're at 40 to 45%. Like that's the limit in California. So.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah. Right. So that's not, you know, not much. But there's no new technology there. The Low Lev exfoliate and detox scalp Shampoo. This one uses charcoal and gentle AHAS to detoxify the scalp.
- [17:52]
B
You know, I give a scalp presentation, Perry, because I've done a lot of scalp analysis. I actually have reviewed over 7,000 images of scalps done with a device that I created under specific light settings. Yeah, it's no longer on the market under the brand that I work for, but I've seen a lot of scalp and so I have a presentation. There's just like, things I don't believe you should use in scalp products. Physical exfoliants are one of them. They just can't effectively exfoliate skin off of the scalp.
- [18:27]
A
So you're saying I shouldn't wash my hair with the St. Ives apricot scrub?
- [18:30]
B
No, you'll be finding apricot kernels for days. Although I think they use walnuts in there.
- [18:36]
A
But anyway, it's mostly walnut. Yeah, yeah.
- [18:38]
B
And then like AHAs, I just think, think your scalp actually wants. You want less turnover on it. So when you increase turnover with alpha hydroxy acids, you just increase flaking. So I'm just not a believer in AHAs. Although some of them that do less flaking could be valuable. Because they actually hydrate skin, increase the moisture content. So. But again, I'm not going to say innovative. Like many people have products like this.
- [19:05]
A
I did not know lolav was a brand founded by Jennifer Aniston.
- [19:10]
B
Some of the products are really nice. They have a spray, like a detangling spray. I mean, one, the fragrance is great, but two, it leaves the hair feeling really nice and soft. That's a good one.
- [19:21]
A
Wasn't she a spokesperson for Living Proof Hair Care?
- [19:24]
B
She was, yeah. Perry, you're like six years behind.
- [19:29]
A
I guess they broke up. All right, we got two more. Charlotte Mentia Makati Oil, sustainable sourced oils, Argan oil and Jimena Oil.
- [19:41]
B
I love Zemenia oil. I actually sell it on my website. It has a really lubricious silicone type feel. Highly stable and, you know, not too much of a nutty smell. Argan oil, on the contrary, is probably rancid by the time you get it as a consumer. There's some really great studies on it that its shelf life is essentially six months. Months. Even if it's packed correctly in a container. Yeah, But Zemenia seed oil is a really beautiful oil and you don't need a lot of it in a formulation. So thumbs up for the Zemenia, thumbs down for the Argan in the hair care range. But again, innovative.
- [20:18]
A
I put oils in your hair. That's.
- [20:20]
B
I don't know. Hopefully they're buying the oil for me. That would be really cool.
- [20:24]
A
And we have the Moroccan Oil Revitalizing Scalp Tonic formulated with Fumaria, which is traditionally used for eczema, psoriasis and dermatitis. They say it's going to make your hair grow thicker and fuller, and I'm skeptical of that.
- [20:42]
B
How are all these brands making these claims and the FDA is not saying anything?
- [20:47]
A
Well, I think what we read in a. An online article is different than maybe the specific claims that they're making on their bottles and in advertising. And I think something gets changed in translation.
- [21:02]
B
Well, that's actually how the FDA can nail you because somehow it's getting interpreted from somewhere. It doesn't necessarily have to live on the website. And so if the common consumer adaptation of the mechanism is, oh, it's regrowing my hair, that obviously came from somewhere. So why don't we actually take a look at the revitalizing scalp tonic claims, if you don't mind if we go to the website.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah, okay, sure, sure. What do we got here? Okay, I'm looking at the ingredients. Propylene glycol or dipropylene glycol, water, butene glyco, humectants in it. What are their claims? Well, talk about the key ingredients on.
- [21:47]
B
The front of the bottle. They just say it's for thin, thinning hair. And just by saying that that's not a drug claim, it's right basically saying to a person who has thinning hair for whatever reason, hey, you know, this product is for me. On their website, however, they do say that it's proven to reduce shedding for thicker, denser looking hair. When you put hyphen looking, that's a way to I guess soften the claim and say, well, I'm not saying it actually like makes your hair denser or.
- [22:20]
A
Anything like that, just looks that way.
- [22:22]
B
But it also says it helps reduce breakage and fallout. So fallout is, you know, maybe they're changing the language a little bit to not say, you know, you're losing hair.
- [22:36]
A
Right. I looked at the other part about hair growth and they don't specifically say hair. They say promote the optimal scalp environment to enable hair growth.
- [22:47]
B
See, but they're leading someone to believe. Do you know what I mean? It's all like the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, right?
- [22:56]
A
Well, the FDA is strapped for cash or whatever resources and they're not going to go after this, you know, because it is like a subtle twist on a claim. So I think the lesson here for consumers is that read the claims more closely because often they're not saying what you think they're saying.
- [23:15]
B
I'm sure it's a nice product, but nothing innovative. I mean, we made a product like this over 10 years ago in my previous life and Nioxin before that. I mean, it's just nothing, nothing earth shattering.
- [23:28]
A
And the last nothing innovative thing is the Glow a hair supplement, which is ingestible beauty. You know, the range includes biotin, vitamin B, zinc, msm. Come on. There's, there's, there's no good evidence that supplements are going to impact your hair in some specific way.
- [23:49]
B
And they're very expensive. Biotin is actually a very expensive vitamin to purchase and use. And it turns out most people are not deficient in biotin. It's actually not very common. And so unless you have a biotin deficiency, your body's just going to pass that through. And topical biotin does nothing.
- [24:07]
A
So now I don't like to end things by saying being so negative. So I want to say something positive here, that while these aren't really terribly innovative, you know, hair care products overall are pretty good. So the Technology that exists works really well. So you can find something that can work for your hair. It's not necessarily going to be something breakthrough new because I just. There just hasn't been anything breakthrough new. But the stuff that's out there is already pretty good.
- [24:35]
B
Yeah, yeah. Out of this list, the only thing I wouldn't try are the supplements. Just because with supplements, unless you just run the risk for like liver damage, you know, honestly. Because if you're not sure where people are getting their herbs and their stuff from and they, you know, maybe they have impurities in them. Supplement. Supplements are not regulated, but they really should be. They do have regulations, you know, which is arguable.
- [25:03]
A
Well, in my view, the supplements in the US are pretty much unregulated compared.
- [25:09]
B
To other industries, but they do have some rules. And some of the basic safety framework around supplements for oral taking them is they have to be tested for harmful compounds. And you know, who knows if someone is using something at a toxic dose for your liver, you don't. So. So I just, I would avoid the supplements. That's my.
- [25:30]
A
But also the FDA only has power to do anything if they kill people, so there's not a lot of power to do there. I don't know, we could do a whole show on that.
- [25:43]
B
Well, I'm sorry I turned your something positive into a negative, but I did say I wouldn't use all the products except the supplements. And that's my personal choice.
- [25:51]
A
All right, there we go. Speaking of choice, I think we have some choice questions to answer. Valerie, we have a patron who sent in some questions and she sent in two. She said, hi, Valerie and Perry, I have two questions for you. Sunscreens. I love La Roche Posay line of UV Moon. The tinted one makes me look a little orange though. Would I be able to mix it 5050 with the non tinted version of the same formula? I feel like the answer will be no from listening to you both over the years, but I'm ever hopeful. Also, any ideas on ordering from French pharmacies with the tariffs now blocking so many vendors? Okay. Mixing sunscreens usually is not a good idea because sunscreens are designed in such a way that they are a suspension particles throughout the formula and that can, if you mix it with other products, that could mess up the film that is formed. And so you might not get the SPF that's advertised now.
- [26:56]
B
I would totally mix here, Perry. I would. And I'll tell you why. Because she says, I'm using the tinted version of one sunscreen and the untinted of the same one. So the difference presumably is literally just in the tinting which comes from iron oxides and maybe a little bit of the inactive ingredients are in different ratios to help support suspension or whatever. But I think it's safe enough to mix here.
- [27:27]
A
Well, I think I would also agree with you there, especially if you're mixing sunscreens from the same manufacturer and they have essentially the same ingredient list. I think you'd be. You're a lot safer than if you were say mixing something from Hawaiian Tropic with La Roche Posay because they're just different formulas. So I wouldn't say mixing that's a good idea, but mixing it through the same line. I mean they probably use the same base formula, that's for sure.
- [27:56]
B
We're pretty close and so you're probably going to get pretty close to the same SPF value. I actually mix the Eltamd formula with a non tinted version because well, this was before she came out with like all these different shades. She just basically had like one or two shades and I'm basically so white I'm almost clear and so it was way too dark. So I actually mix like you know, 1/4 and 75% and you know, I feel like I'm in a good space but I won't know for many years because I'm primarily using it for anti aging purposes. So. But I feel like it's good.
- [28:34]
A
Right.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah.
- [28:36]
A
Well, as long as you're not getting sunburned, you're all right.
- [28:38]
B
Yeah. And as far as the tariffs blocking so many vendors, it's not necessarily the tariffs because I mean neither here nor there, but basically they're just not shipping because the process is so confusing and it actually has nothing also to do with retail. Like I can't get packages from my family because the process for intaking is unclear and it gets returned on the Germany side, not the, you know, the US side. It they literally just. Yeah. So I don't know what's going on, but I do know you can order from French pharmacy, which is a specific company. I don't know if they have all the products that you're looking for, but.
- [29:22]
A
Right.
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B
I order from there and they warehouse.
- [29:24]
A
In the U.S. i think that's helpful. So I guess it's going to be just on a case by case basis. You may not be able to find everything. Yeah, the whole, the whole system at the moment is in flux and a lot of people are confused. So it's unfortunate but maybe it'll work itself out. Eventually, yeah.
- [29:43]
B
I'm still waiting. Remember we had the question about that German brand that looked like Dr. Barbara Stern, but it was called Dr. Emmy Arpa? I never got my hat. Yeah, well.
- [29:52]
A
Oh, that's right, your hat.
- [29:54]
B
I'm still waiting to get those products because my family's trying to ship them to me with other stuff, like my birthday gift and like some Christmas of stuff. And, you know, they always put together nice little care packages for me. But anyway, yeah, so still waiting for that. But, you know, you could also plan a trip to France, Janie, and go get them. You know, Perry and I will actually be in Paris in April, so maybe.
- [30:19]
A
We could grab some stuff for you in cosmetics. All right. She did have a second question. I started seeing lots of talk recently about gloss hair treatments. Are they just marketing? Are they healthy for hair and can I do that at home or should I get this done at a salon? Forever grateful to you both. Thank you. Gloss hair treatments.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah. So I actually have made a couple, both in my salon professional life and in my life as an entrepreneur. And I really like them because they really are able to penetrate the hair and kind of encase the hair fiber. They have really great fiber alignment, which they help with fiber alignment, which partially you get from the salon professional styling your hair at the end. And yeah, I think they're really awesome. I don't think they stay for a long time. Meaning I don't think you see the gloss for a long time because eventually that stuff does come off of the hair. But I think there are some that last a few washes and for whatever reason, or at least leave the hair looking really great for a few washes. And I'm a big fan. I have.
- [31:35]
A
What's the. What's the main ingredient in them? Is it silicone?
- [31:38]
B
Well, the ones I've developed are silicones.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah.
- [31:41]
B
Silicone. Yeah.
- [31:43]
A
The good ones have silicones.
- [31:45]
B
Yeah. And actually I have purchased a couple for at home use to try. I'm just not impressed. Like, I. I bought the Living Pro proof gloss treatment, and it's all right.
- [31:57]
A
Is that before or after Jennifer Aniston left them?
- [32:01]
B
Oh, my gosh, Harry. That happened, like, several years ago. It's. I just. It's new, it's a newer product and.
- [32:06]
A
Oh, okay.
- [32:07]
B
I generally like their stuff, but I just feel like if you really have a special event coming up, I think like an in salon gloss treatment is the way to go. Or if your hair is particularly fragile and I just need it to get it in a healthy state, I kind of Need a reset and a good foundation to build on. I would go to the salon. The at home treatments are okay, but I'm just a fan of the salon ones.
- [32:34]
A
Yeah, I'm just looking at them. Yeah, it's, it's hard, hard to say what. They're all sort of different, so it's hard to say the ingredients, but it's probably a silicone. I personally have not tried them, so I feel confident in saying that at least some of them are just marketing. But you know, they all are probably hair conditioners which will leave your hair in fine shape. Are they healthy for hair? A gloss treatment doesn't require like a heat or any sort of chemical treatment to it. So it's not really going to damage hair. So it's as healthy as conditioning, I would say.
- [33:05]
B
Well, the heat required is typically blow drying which you would do anyway. So I don't think it's anything extra. So yeah, I think they're all good from a, you know, not going to hurt you point of view.
- [33:15]
A
They are not. Speaking of not hurt ya, Ivy had a question.
- [33:19]
B
Is California Naturals a good hair care option? I've been loving their products. I was just curious about it.
- [33:25]
A
Loving their products, California Naturals, I mean they, if you, if first of all, if you love their products and you can afford them, then you should keep using them. They're perfectly fine now. Are they the best products you can get? Are they even a good value? Well, I think if something makes you feel good and makes your hair feel good, then, you know, how much more of a value do you want? But if you're looking to save money, let's take a look at these products.
- [33:56]
B
So I, I've used a couple products from this brand in the past and I just don't feel from a, you know, using anything different than what other companies are using. I don't think they're too different. I think it's more like product positioning and the fact that they're vegan and you know, cruelty free and all those types of things. I mean in terms of conditioning agents, they use cetrimonium chloride and behem trimonium chloride, which are the primary conditioning agents that you would use in hair care.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, everyone pretty much would use those.
- [34:34]
B
That's pretty much like the foundation of a conditioner. Right. And so they're not using anything and anything different from that aspect.
- [34:40]
A
Right. And I mean in their marketing as such, they're going to play up all the natural stuff that's in there, but that stuff is just kind of in there. For the story, the stuff that's making it work is behene trimonium chloride and the cationic surfactants and such.
- [34:55]
B
And for their shampoos they're using sulfate free systems, but they're not using anything that's, you know, unique to them that, that other brands aren't using that are sulfate free. So for example, cocamidopropyl hydroxy sultane is a very common surfactant that's used. And you know, for example, in their super moisture system, they're using sodium methyl 2 sulfur laurate and sodium lauryl methyl isethionate, which is not my favorite surfactant, but nonetheless it's, you know, very nice. And you know, then it's the same.
- [35:27]
A
Stuff they're using in their, their classic clean shampoo. Also they have some, their chassis, their shampoo chassis are these blend of sulfate free detergents which you can make a good product there. It probably doesn't foam as much as, you know, your, your sulfate shampoos, but it can, it can foam pretty well.
- [35:50]
B
This one, this system's a good foamer. But point being, you know, it's nothing that non natural brands aren't using.
- [35:59]
A
Yeah, and I don't know how you go with natural here because, you know, hydroxy sultane does not exist in nature. Well, they go with the coconut derived. Right.
- [36:08]
B
I'm actually surprised and I mean maybe they have and it's just not public, but this is like a really high litigious area because if I were buying this and I didn't know better, I would be like, wow, it's natural. But at the end of the day, they have a lot of chemically made raw materials in here that one could argue are not natural. And they are using food grade fragrance, but which just means it can be ingested. It's like lip safe is what we would call it, but you know, that doesn't necessarily mean it is natural. It could also have some synthetic materials in there.
- [36:46]
A
This one has guar hydroxypropyl trimonium chloride, which is a great conditioning polymer, but where's the nature in that? Yeah, that's just a regular ingredient.
- [36:56]
B
So Ivy, bottom line, if you love it, keep using it. They look like really nice products and like the fragrances would be really good. And these are just as good as any other product on the market.
- [37:08]
A
And they're not really much more natural than products on the market either. Yeah, the bottom line is cosmetics aren't natural. You can't go out and get a shampoo tree Or a pick from a conditioner bush. They have to all be processed in some non natural way.
- [37:25]
B
Well, I would like to counter you on that. There is.
- [37:27]
A
Oh yeah, go ahead.
- [37:28]
B
Soap nut which does come from a tree and it, it does cleanse. People do have shampoos made out of the extract from it. Now it's a terrible shampoo. It could be a shampoo tree.
- [37:45]
A
You do make a good point. Let's move on to this question from Magdalena. I have learned so much from your show and become a product marketing skeptic. I really appreciate the beauty science education you can provide. I am a solo esthetician, so I deal with skincare every day. I often run into a situation where someone will say something like I only use clean beauty or, or I don't use anything with chemicals. I'm not sure how best to have a conversation about beauty products with somebody who has those beliefs. I am sure you have both come across people like this in your career. So how do you handle these conversations? I want to be friendly, but I also don't want to perpetuate the fear caused by clean beauty marketing. I want to educate others but not also provide a whole science lesson. So do you have any advice? Thank you. Also not a fan of clean beauty. Okay, a clean beauty skeptic here.
- [38:41]
B
This is a tough conversation to have because I just don't think in a conversation you're going to sway someone, but you could plant them with little nuggets of information that maybe at least plant the seed. So for example, when someone says I don't use anything with chemicals or a brand comes to me and says we don't want chemicals in our product, I just say, oh, well, what do you mean by chemicals? Because yes. And then I don't say this part because everything's a chemical, even water. They don't like that argument. So I just let them say what a chemical means to them and I say, oh, okay, so you don't want anything that is perceived to be dangerous.
- [39:22]
A
Right.
- [39:23]
B
And then I go through, well, those are safe for use. But I understand that's your perception. And so I'm not trying to change their perception, but I'm trying to let them know that they are approved to be used everywhere in the world because they're safe. But that's okay. If you don't feel they're safe, there's options for you.
- [39:40]
A
That is a good approach. I also like that approach of asking them like what products do they approve of or do they feel comfortable using and take a look at the Ingredient list of those things and say, okay, where does desylglucoside. Where what plant grows decyl glucoside or something? And you can get to that point that I was just making, actually, that all of these things that are sold as cosmetic or personal care products have to be processed somehow. Because with the exception of soapwort, there aren't a lot of products that could come directly from nature. If you want a good product, it's going to have to be synthetically modified in some way so that kind of doesn't exist. And maybe if you get it on a product that they like using, maybe that will come through more.
- [40:33]
B
It's very common for people to say, oh, I don't like artificial colorants, or I don't like silicones. And then their favorite hair mask has silicones in it. Or their favorite lipstick has the same colorants that they're trying to avoid. And, and so sometimes I think they're just repeating things that they're learning from somewhere, but they don't understand really what, what's. What is what in their product. For the clean beauty argument, I only use clean beauty. I think it's great to ask them what they think clean beauty means. Oh, you know, there's not like a, A definition of it. So what does clean beauty mean to you? And kind of pull out from them, what is it that they think is dangerous in products? And instead of saying something like, well, I don't think a company would produce products that would kill their customers, I would just say, well, you know, companies like that have, you know, let's say, you know, they think a product by J and J is harmful. Let's say maybe that's a bad example from the Telx, you know, issues. But, you know, companies do.
- [41:38]
A
Talking to JJ was not dangerous either, either.
- [41:40]
B
But, yeah, well, companies do have toxicologists or they should be hiring a toxicologist and making sure their cosmetics are safe. And at the end of the day, it's like illegal to sell unsafe products. So it doesn't mean brands aren't doing it. We do see some stuff, you know, in the market, but I don't know, like, they're fine, they're gonna be fine.
- [42:01]
A
So I think the bottom line is a good strategy is to ask questions and listen and then subtly raise some things that might create questions in the true believer. You're not going to convince people by telling them everything's a chemical. What are you worried about? Or natural, it doesn't exist. That's not convincing to people that already believe it. But if you ask a question that just gets them thinking it plants a seed, and then maybe in the future they'll be more receptive to what. What the reality is, and that is that natural cosmetics don't exist.
- [42:37]
B
Exactly.
- [42:38]
A
Except soap water.
- [42:40]
B
The soap nut. Well, next question comes to us from re. Hi, Beauty Brains. I discovered your podcast recently and I already went through a rabbit hole of binging episodes. All the cat love makes me so happy, and I feel like I'm learning a lot about what ingredients, silk form products I buy. My question has to do with hair care. I have oily but very wavy, fine hair and a lot of it. I've always dealt with frizziness. I've been living in the Netherlands for a few years, which has quite humid, windy, and rainy weather, so of course my hair goes crazy because of it. And the frizz problem because. And the frizz problem has become even worse. Do you guys know what could help to keep the frizz I get at the top of my head under control? And how to maintain the mids and ends between washes? I tend to use the Olaplex bonding oil daily to lubricate the ends, and it gives amazing shine. But as soon as I step outside, the hair starts to separate and frizz up. So I'm guessing it might not be getting all the nourishment it needs. Thank you for all the knowledge you share with us and lots of love. Ari.
- [43:41]
A
It sounds like she's describing your hair here.
- [43:43]
B
Yeah, that's pretty much very true.
- [43:47]
A
Frizzy and lots of it. Well, your hair is not frizzy in my view. But you have mentioned in the past that you have problems with frizz.
- [43:53]
B
Well, I do. And the reason you don't necessarily notice it is because my hair is in a bun 95% of the time.
- [43:59]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [44:00]
B
And only really good when I get it, like, professionally done. I'm not a very good hairdoer, so I can get it to look okay, but, you know, still not. Not very good. But my trick, honestly, is using silicone based serums.
- [44:15]
A
Yeah.
- [44:16]
B
I think silicones are most effective at helping repel frizz.
- [44:20]
A
For sure.
- [44:20]
B
I love the Olaplex bonding oil. It's very nice. I prefer to use that in a situation where you're using heat on the hair. But if you're just, like, trying to get your frizz to go away, I mean, definitely look for something that has dimethicone in it.
- [44:38]
A
Sure.
- [44:38]
B
And it doesn't have to be heavy. There's a lot of lightweight dimethicone based serums and that will efficiently coat the hair fiber.
- [44:47]
A
There was that classic brand, Frizz Ease.
- [44:49]
B
I think it's still around by John Frieda.
- [44:51]
A
But yeah, there you go. And Frizz Ease was, you know, silicone that worked.
- [44:56]
B
The salon professional version was bio silk by Chi.
- [45:00]
A
Oh, okay.
- [45:00]
B
Yeah. But Moroccan oil has them. Pretty much every brand out there right now has, has silicone based serum. Super Skinny Serum by Paul Mitchell. They now have a light version, I think. Yeah, there's just a lot of options for you in the Netherlands where you're at. And I would look for dimethicone in those serums.
- [45:21]
A
You know, silicones just work and that this for frizz is one of their biggest benefits.
- [45:27]
B
As far as the frizz on the top of the head, that's a little more challenging because your hair is very fine. It might tend to look greasy because you're already oily. That's a little bit tougher. But I honestly would just try a little bit of a light lightweight serum. Maybe one of those ultralight silicones like the John Frieda frizzies. Maybe there's a version in the Netherlands on the top. I mean, I'm talking my new amounts or maybe even a leave in conditioner of sorts and heat and try to get the hair with a blow dryer and a fine tooth comb to pull and train the hair to be a little bit straighter and then finish it with some kind of humidity resistant finishing spray. It doesn't have to have a firm hold. It could just be a fray that's designed for frizz.
- [46:21]
A
I suppose if you didn't mind the look, you could just get a big tube of petrolatum and run it through your hair and slick it down. That'll keep the frizz away.
- [46:34]
B
Did I say that out loud?
- [46:37]
A
How about we move on to the last question? This comes to us from Erin. She says, I listened to an episode recently where Valerie mentioned the chemical called desylglucoside and she mentioned that it's not a good ingredient for thin hair. I would love to know why. And what are ingredients to look for in shampoos and conditioners that benefit people with thin hair. You're not a big desyglucoside fan.
- [47:02]
B
I'm not. I just don't like the feel of it in shampoos. It's. I just am not a fan, Perry. And whenever we would get complaints on specific products in our portfolio at my previous, you know, brand that I work For I would say, let me guess, the consumer has fine hair. And they would be like, yeah, how do you know? And I'm like, it's the worst surfactant to use for people not with thin hair. Like, you don't have a lot of hair density, like numbers of hairs on your scalp, but if the hair fiber is fine, that's the worst thing you could use for your hair. I'll tell you a story. My cousin.
- [47:38]
A
Well, I suppose. I suppose using soap would be worse, but not much. That's what I do. Find these glucosides, when they rinse out, they feel very squeaky clean, but kind of drying and draggy.
- [47:52]
B
So, yeah, I think. I don't know if they rinse all the way from the hair. I think they're kind of harder to rinse from the hair fiber, and so you tend to get a lot of residue. Also, they're really good cleansers, like, really good. And when you have fine hair like that, it does something to the cuticle, like roughing it up almost. And so when the fine hairs lay over each other, they get caught like wool. Like when you're making felt from wool, you want the cuticles to be raised so they catch on each other. And then you end up with mats and knots. The hair could feel really rough. It's hard to detangle, even if you use a conditioner afterwards. And so for these reasons, I don't like the glucosides. I'll tell you a quick story, Perry. When I was in Germany about five years ago, I was talking with my cousin, and her poor children had beautiful fine blonde hair, but it was very short. And she just said, I don't know what's wrong. I can't get their hair to grow. And I said, well, let me see what they're washing their hair with. And it was a children's shampoo, and it had three. Three different kinds of glucosides in it. And I said, this is the first problem. Throw this away or use it for the body or whatever and switch to a shampoo. It literally can be anything, just no glucosides in it. And it helped their hair from breaking because they weren't getting as many tangles anymore.
- [49:16]
A
Well, that's good.
- [49:17]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [49:18]
A
So that is why our experience with desolglucosides or lauryl glucosides, that why Valerie's not a huge fan. I'm. I'm not a huge fan either, but I'm a fan of the sulfates because they work and they're bubbly and they're classic.
- [49:32]
B
And the glucosides like desol glucoside is so detergent. It was named as a contact allergen. So I just, I don't even like to use it in skincare. But anyway, regardless, if you have fine hair, look for any shampoo that does not contain the word glucoside in it. That would be my advice. It's not usually used in conditioners, although you could find coco glucoside in a conditioner and that's okay. Just not desyl glucoside.
- [49:59]
A
Right. And as far as conditioners go for people with thin hair, you know, I would go for something like beheme trimonium chloride or behene trimonium methyl sulfate is alright.
- [50:10]
B
I would recommend the methosulfate over the chloride and maybe even stearamidopropyl dimethylamine. That's a great one.
- [50:17]
A
Yeah, yeah. Shorter, shorter chain lengths are better and but he knows 22 sterile is 18 so I would. Yeah. Steramidyl propyl dimethylamine. Oh that classic one. So those are good. So you just have to experiment with different conditioner types though to see what works. And because it's hard to recommend something for a person because you don't know the way your hair feels is very personal. And some people might like a weighed down feel or some people might like a less weighed down feel. It's really hard. So you have to experiment.
- [50:50]
B
Exactly. Speaking of classic, I think I hear our classic end of show music.
- [50:56]
A
Hey, you do? Thanks so much for listening. If you get a chance, can you head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a review or a comment. I always enjoy reading the comments there and if you had a question you could put it there too. That's going to help other people find the show. And sure we have a full docket of questions to answer.
- [51:13]
B
If you have a question, record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com we love using other people's voices on the show. You can also use the form in the show notes of this episode to send your voice question. And we have a 1872 number. We will literally never pick it up. You could just leave a voicemail there. That number is 1 872-216-1856.
- [51:36]
A
The beauty brains are also on Patreon. If you appreciate the fact that we do not take advertising, that's good. That lets us be unbiased and we don't say things about like say red light lamps where somebody's paying us to say stuff. But instead, we do require some support for the show to keep the bills and the lights on. And so if the Beauty Brains are on Patreon, and if you appreciate what we do, head out to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also get a higher priority to your questions and a transcript of the show.
- [52:11]
B
Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, We're at the Beautybrains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok. And now we're on YouTube.
- [52:24]
A
That's right, we play this. And someday we're gonna have the video.
- [52:28]
B
One day when our hair's not frizzy.
- [52:30]
A
Right?
- [52:31]
B
Thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [52:36]
A
Thanks, everyone. Kittens.