Does Pantene’s "Abundant and Strong" Really Improve Your Hair Health? - Episode 417

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beauty Brains – Episode 417

Title: Does Pantene’s "Abundant and Strong" Really Improve Your Hair Health?
Date: January 24, 2026
Hosts: Valerie George & Perry Romanowski

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Episode Overview

In this episode of The Beauty Brains, cosmetic chemists Valerie and Perry tackle a listener-submitted batch of questions centered around hair and skin product science. The main focus is on Pantene’s new "Abundant and Strong" system, its claims about improving hair health, and the actual efficacy of its technology. They also cover the safety of The Ordinary’s lash curl finisher, barrier repair moisturizer recommendations, the truth about ionic hair dryers, and dissect the formula of Renpure’s Coconut Whipped Cream leave-in conditioner. With their trademark blend of science-based skepticism and industry savvy, they parse the latest beauty trends and answer real-world listener concerns.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Pantene “Abundant and Strong” System: Hype vs. Science

Listener Questions: Rachel & Diane ask about the technology, claims, and efficacy, especially for hair thinning due to menopause.
Main Takeaways:

• Not Brand-New Tech:
  • The ingredients and antioxidant-focused claims are based on Procter & Gamble’s long-term research (over 15 years), including ingredients like niacinamide, panthenol, paractoneolamine, and various polymers.
• Study Skepticism:
  • Perry voices doubts about the effectiveness being distinct from regular Pantene products and the reliability of their studies:

    “...when you condition hair, it’s in better shape than when you don’t condition hair.” (17:02)

  • Studies often don’t disclose true placebos, possibly comparing against harsh SLS solutions, making results less meaningful.
• Ingredients Analysis:
  • Valerie describes possible biochemical support for the claims: these molecules (niacinamide, panthenol) play roles in cell metabolism, but penetration depth and real-world effects are uncertain.

    "Of course, because they are moving electrons around, they would impact oxidation. But in the scalp...I don’t know if the study really demonstrates those mechanisms." (19:32)

• Real Benefit:
  • The reduction in hair fall is likely mostly from improved breakage resistance—i.e., hair feels and acts healthier due to conditioning, not actual biological hair retention.

    “...The conditioner, the shampoo conditioner and serum as a system could help prevent hair fall from breakage. I do believe that.” (26:01)

  • Menthol’s “cooling” effect is for user sensation, not efficacy.
• On Hormones & Hair Thinning:
  • Both hosts confirm hormone changes (e.g., during menopause) can cause oxidative stress, contributing to thinning/shedding, but are skeptical the product can reverse this.

    "If you do have hair loss due to oxidative stress from hormone change, I just, I'm not sure that that product could do that." (25:01)

• Bottom Line:
  • It’s a good, solid Pantene product—just not as revolutionary as marketed.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Perry: "I gotta be honest with you, I'm skeptical of this blend of niacinamide, panthenol and paractoneolamine. Only because...I've never been impressed with panthenol." (15:16)
• Valerie: "Is panthenol our new vitamin C? We're just like, I love it, you don't love it." (15:52)
• Perry: "I'm more impressed by niacinamide." (16:02)
• Valerie: "You want something light and tiny...that’s the one they really loved. And I don’t think it has ionic technology. I just think people like it because it’s mint green and tiny..." (43:14)

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2. Product Safety: The Ordinary Lash Curl Finisher

Listener Question: Allison asks if it’s safe, and if it’s just a hair gel for lashes. Main Takeaways:

• Ingredient Breakdown:
  • It uses typical hair styling polymers (e.g., styrene copolymer, acrylates) and is essentially a gel for lashes—not a mascara, as it lacks colorants.
• Safety:
  • Perry: "I'm going to say they are doing the eye safety testing that is required...I would feel okay using it by the eye." (28:21)
  • Valerie emphasizes such products must undergo rigorous eye safety testing, especially from major brands.
• Microplastic Concerns:
  • The polymers used aren’t considered microplastics (by scientific and legal definitions); confusion largely stems from shifting regulatory language.
• Fun Fact:
  • Valerie relays a story:

    "If a guy who, like, synthesizes this stuff for a living would eat it. I think you can put it on your lashes." (32:59)

• Bottom Line:
  • Safe to use, not a microplastic concern, and functions as a clear, flexible holding gel for lashes.

Notable Quotes

• Perry: “...when someone says like acrylates copolymer is a microplastic, it’s not by the definitions of microplastic. These things break down, whereas microplastics stick around.” (31:41)

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3. Barrier Repair Moisturizer Recommendations

Listener Question: G asks for suggestions for very dry, dehydrated skin. Main Takeaways:

• Differentiating Skin Types:
  • Valerie explains the distinction between dry skin (lacking oils, flakes) and dehydrated skin (lacking water).

    "You cannot drink your way to hydrated skin." (36:39)

• Best Practices:
  • Hydrate with water-based product, then seal with an occlusive.
  • Petrolatum (e.g., Vaseline) is extremely effective as a night treatment.
  • Ceramide-containing products recommended:
    • Skinfix Moisturizers
    • Prequel Half-and-Half Peptides & Ceramide Fluid
    • Eucerin
    • O’Keeffe’s Working Hands (for non-face)
• Slugging Trend:
  • Perry jokes: “It’s my own personal hand slugging, right?” (35:10)
• Bottom Line:
  • Use a lightweight hydrating step, then a ceramide-rich or petrolatum occlusive. Distinguish between skin types for best results.

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4. Ionic Hair Dryers: Worth the Hype?

Listener Question: Mary wonders if expensive ionic dryers decrease damage. Main Takeaways:

• Ionic Claims Are Mostly Marketing:
  • Scientific proof for ion-driven drying or improved hair health is lacking.

    "I always felt this was a little bit of a, a marketing shtick. I'm not really aware of real science." (39:27)

• What Matters More:
  • Ergonomics, airflow consistency, and heat output affect usability and hair feel more than “ions.”
  • Hosts recommend Dyson for consistent temperature (but note it’s heavy/clunky); salon pros favor small, lightweight dryers irrespective of ionic claims.
• Bottom Line:
  • Buy for comfort, practicality, and personal preference—don’t overpay for “ionic.”

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5. Renpure Coconut Whipped Cream Leave-In Conditioner Formula

Listener Question: Misty asks about unique formula aspects and long-term safety of her product stash. Main Takeaways:

• Preservation:
  • The formula contains potent preservatives (diazolidinylurea, iodopropynyl butylcarbamate); long shelf stability confirmed, especially if product appears/smells normal.
• Formula Analysis:
  • Nothing unique; typical “conditioning emulsion” with effective ingredients: behentrimonium chloride (conditioner), amodimethicone (frizz reduction), and various oils.
  • Other extracts/proteins are "window dressing" — not major contributors to performance.

    “I would focus on the behentrimonium chloride...and ammo dimethicone.” (47:20)

• Bottom Line:
  • When searching for a replacement, look for those two main functional ingredients. Product is safe to use unless it looks/smells off.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Pantene Abundant & Strong:

  “It’s a Pantene product. I just am skeptical that it’s different than any other Pantene product." — Perry (21:07)

• On Conditioner Benefits:

  “Of course, if you have panthenol, if you have dimethicone and a polymer...you’re going to get less breakage on hair.” — Valerie (18:05)

• On Placebo Problems:

  “They don’t tell you the ingredients in that placebo control.” — Perry (16:58)

• On Slugging:

  “It’s my own personal hand slugging, right?” — Perry (35:10)

• On Ionic Dryers:

  “I always felt this was a little bit of a, a marketing shtick. I’m not really aware of real science.” — Valerie (39:27)

• On Microplastics:

  “It’s not by the definitions of microplastic. These things break down, whereas microplastics stick around.” — Perry (31:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Pantene “Abundant and Strong” Analysis: 10:36–26:43
• The Ordinary Lash Curl Finisher Safety: 26:47–33:06
• Barrier Repair Moisturizer Recommendations: 33:12–38:41
• Ionic Hair Dryers Discussion: 38:46–43:44
• Renpure Coconut Whipped Cream Leave-in Formula: 43:56–48:11

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Style & Tone

• Friendly back-and-forth with light humor:

  “Is panthenol our new vitamin C? We’re just like, I love it, you don’t love it.” — Valerie (15:52)

• Unapologetically science-based, occasionally skeptical:

  “That’s a total trick...Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but, you know, this seems like a little jiggery pokery.” — Perry (17:07)

• Encouragement for listener empowerment and DIY ingredient scrutiny.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode of The Beauty Brains dives deep into the science (and marketing!) behind trending beauty products. If you’re considering Pantene’s “Abundant & Strong” for thinning hair, don’t expect miracles, but enjoy robust conditioning. For skin and lash care, trust major brands’ safety—but go beneath the buzzwords. And when shopping for gadgets or leave-ins, substance beats sizzle every time. As Perry says, “Be brainy about your beauty!”

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider look at the cosmetics industry. This is episode 417. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[B]

Hello, Valerie. Always good to see you.

[A]

Good to see you. We have a lot of stuff we gotta cover on today's show, including questions like, what are your thoughts on Pantene's abundant and strong system? Is the ordinary lash curl finisher safe? Do we have recommendations on barrier repair moisturizers? Which is so important because it's the middle of winter right now, at least in the northern hemisphere. Are ionic hair dryers better for your hair? And finally, is there anything unique about the Renpure coconut whipped cream leave in conditioner? But first, that inane chit chat.

[B]

Yeah. Valerie, how are things going for you?

[A]

You know, I'm in a daze. I have not had time to work on any of my New Year's resolutions.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I don't even remember what they were.

[B]

It's supposed to write them down. That helps, right?

[A]

I know, but I think I forgot where. I, I jotted them somewhere, but I don't even really remember where, but just trying to get footing from a whirlwind end to last year. But we received some good news, both Perry and I this past week that we wrote a book and it's been published. Well, we helped write a book.

[B]

Right. We were contributors to a book. I was an editor and a chapter author and Valerie was a chapter author too.

[A]

And it turns out some of our listeners have already bought the book and read our chapters. Yeah, and that's right. Yeah, that's right. I believe it was Natalie in Australia who sent us some really kind feedback. Thank you, Natalie, for your support.

[B]

Yeah. The book was publisher published by Springer Nature link. And the book is called Cosmetic Science.

[A]

So there you go. Look at that. I can't believe we didn't remember that. We were like, what was it called?

[B]

Yeah, there. Well, very. Who knew it was so simple.

[A]

Exactly. But we had one of our listeners from Australia, one of our top listening countries, Natalie, who actually read the book. Natalie, thank you for supporting the text and saying so many kind things about our writing.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, I appreciate it too. She was very specific too, so that was nice.

[A]

And guess what? Not only is the book available digitally, which is great if you love a PDF version of something, but it's actually in print, print in hard copy. And we have a little surprise for our patrons.

[B]

Yeah. If you're a patron of good standing, at some point we will. We're gonna have a. A drawing and you could win the book if, if you like. So we'll have to figure out the details of that. But I think if you're a patron in the month of February, then you'll be in the running to get the book.

[A]

Book. And if you guys aren't sure what patron is, Patreon is how we support the podcast. If you'll notice, we don't actually have any ads on this podcast. It's completely ad free, which allows us to be unbiased. So we do need some funds to support the cost of putting on this show. It's, you know, not totally free for us. And so you can help support the podcast by going to patreon.com forward sponsors, slash the beautybrains and subscribe. Usually Perry does this part. So I'm fumbling a little. How am I doing? Good.

[B]

You're doing good. You're doing good.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I like. I hate plugging things, but anyway. Yeah, so that's been pretty exciting. But other than that, I mean, it's really been a really slow week. And in fact, we're going to head to Beauty News and see we don't have much going on at all.

[B]

Yeah. And does the beauty industry have much going on?

[A]

I think we're still recovering from the holidays and these super viruses going around.

[B]

Anna? Well, I saw this article in global cosmetics industry GCI and it was the top 10 beauty brands across categories according to Spate. And I was interested in this because to me, the top, top beauty brands are the ones you find at Target and Walmart and places like that. But Spate really looks at beauty brands based on online searches and stuff. And so I guess that's kind of the reason why I didn't recognize some of these brands. So let's go through what they say are the top 10 brands because I only recognized a couple of the brands here. So top, top, brand according to Spate magazine was Medicube.

[A]

Have you heard of this brand?

[B]

I have not heard of this brand.

[A]

Yeah, it's a fun skincare brand.

[B]

It's. It's big on TikTok. Apparently they have a peel shot line for texture, blackheads and whiteheads. So I guess it's a anti acne brand. Really?

[A]

Yeah, it plays in the anti acne space. I think it's popular for people who are really serious about skin care, which is really cool. They, you know, their packaging is fun, bright colors, they have a lot of great imagery. Will it stay popular forever? It's always hard to tell when the metric is interest on TikTok.

[B]

Yeah. So it's ranked by popularity. But they do have 167.9 million increase this year.

[A]

Increase from last year. Yeah, but I'd say they've really picked up their campaigns. The next brand I actually have never heard of.

[B]

Yeah, the next is based body works. 122.2 million increase year over year. But this is a hair and skincare brand leaning into trend driven products. It's got a steady cadence of paid TikTok videos. So that's why it just shows up in your TikTok feed, I guess because.

[A]

They'Re advertising essentially, which, who knows if that's really organic growth. Right. Like the ad hits your TikTok and then you say, oh well, what's Based Body Works? Is that like Bath and Body Works? I don't know.

[B]

Let me look. Seems like it. Yeah. It's an. I mean the thing is with TikTok, they just will shove a ad in, in your feed and you know, you'll, you'll automatically have to look at it. It's not like you can, I mean you quickly swipe off it, but you're gonna see it, so that'll count, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Then we have Dr. Malaxin, which is a popular Korean cosmeceuticals, I guess, known.

[A]

For targeting pigmentation, hence the play on the word melanin, which is pigment found in skin.

[B]

Ah, there you go then. Next up is Lattafa. Another one. This is an Arabian fragrance brand, TikTok.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

It doesn't make it into my TikTok feed, so.

[A]

But it might now.

[B]

Now here's one that I have do recognize. Saravay, 66.3 million increase skincare brand. It's a popular staple among Gen Z and teens. I guess that's the TikTok target.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

We have Wavy Talk is a popular hair styling tool.

[A]

Yeah, it's not actually a liquid product per se, but hot tools. So like hair dryers and that kind of stuff, huh?

[B]

Well, they do quite well on TikTok, apparently. Now next is the one that was launched by Hailey Bieber, Road Skin. And this one is popular mostly because Hailey Bieber remains popular and it only.

[A]

Had a 61.4 million increase year over year, which I'm surprised because all we ever heard about last year was Rhodes Skincare and the big sale for a billion dollars and now it's In Seura. Yeah. So I'm surprised it didn't have a bigger increase, but maybe because it already had all that visibility. It didn't increase much, it just high in interest.

[B]

Right. It was already popular, so it's harder to be more popular. Then we have Valentino Beauty, 49.7 increase, which is a couture, makeup, fragrance and skincare brand. It's popular with the Roso Valentino lipstick. Actually, I may have seen that on Tick Tock. I didn't remember the brand name, but I see a lot of lipsticks on brand on, on Tick Tock.

[A]

Oh, very interesting.

[B]

There's two more. We have Taimo, which is a hair care brand and specializing in hair styling tools. So that's a tooled brand. And then we have the Shat Chow Beauty, a makeup and skincare brand driven by viral hits like the lip liner Stay n and the peel off lip stain.

[A]

Peel off lip stain is just so, I don't know, I just feel like it's so gimmicky and it feels like something that, you know, a few people had a handful of years ago and it never really hit. And I remember all the raw material, people trying to push polyvinyl alcohol to create these, you know, peel off type.

[B]

Products and I always just wait, it's polyvinyl alcohol based.

[A]

I think they're polyvinyl alcohol based. Yeah. So essentially it, the product dries and then it creates this thing you can peel off and then, you know, you throw the peel off part away and like, oh, my lips are stained. But I don't know, just I don't need to have fun using products so I would just rather put a lip stain on my lips.

[B]

Well, you know what interesting about polyvinyl alcohol is pva.

[A]

Uh huh. Is this a joke about like a name of a band that you would have?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

This is serious, serious science. Pva. If you mix it with sodium borate or boric acid, it makes slime.

[A]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yeah, it's fun.

[A]

You know, I have a jar of PVA in my lab and I always thought I'm going to do something with this one day. And I've never done anything with it, but it never really goes bad. It's a powder, all right. You know, it's an airtight container and you know, maybe I could make some slime with Baby C. I used to.

[B]

Make slime all the time. It was so fun. I had some PVA in the lab and that's was kind of my gimmick. Just I was the slime guy, so I was fun.

[A]

Do you want some pva? I can mail it to you.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right, shall we move on to the questions?

[A]

Yeah, I didn't have any news, but I am excited about some of the questions we have. Our first question is Rachel from Patreon. Hi again, Beauty Brains. I'm a Patreon member and I wanted to know your thoughts about the new Pantene abundant and Strong system. It seems like it uses interesting new technology, so I wanted to hear your thoughts. Below are two videos talking about the science of the hair care system from Lab Muffin and Abby Jung. Thanks, Rachel.

[B]

Yeah, and we also got an audio question about it which was a similar topic, so I thought we could combine them, but that was from Diane.

[C]

Hi, I'm new to your podcast and I really appreciate your science backed information on skin and hair care. I came here because of menopause. I've been in menopause for 10 years and I've recently seen increased hair shedding and thinning. I watched a YouTube video with a popular influencer who met with Pantene's lead scientist to discuss their new abundant and strong line. She goes into quite a bit of detail about it. The line is based on improving scalp health from oxidative stress, allowing better hair retention and reduced shedding. They do not claim to promote hair growth. My questions for you. I color and highlight my hair, but it is only recently that I see thinning. Can a change in hormones cause oxidative stress? Two, what are your thoughts on this research? And three, what are your thoughts on this product line, particularly the scalp serum? Thank you so much for all you do.

[A]

Well, thanks Diane for that great audio question.

[B]

Yeah, it's curious, we got two questions at the same time generally about this Pantene product. So must be, they must be spending a lot of their ad money on, perhaps not on TikTok, but perhaps somewhere out in social media. Huh.

[A]

It makes sense that all of these questions would be coming in about this technology because the YouTube videos are new and so everyone's kind of seeing this push at the same time on social media and maybe some ads. And I know that one of the videos is a ad. It's actually not a new technology. Procter and Gamble, who is the parent company of Pantene, has been doing research on various combinations of different molecules in relationship to scalp health. So starting about 15 years ago, they heavily were researching a molecule complex called cnpda and essentially it was caffeine niacinamide. Panthenol dimethicone and an acrylate polymer. But some of their recent research has switched to looking at niacinamide and panthenol in combination with paractoneolamine as well as PvP, which is a polymer. And so it does take a long time to get a product market, especially in a big machine like Procter and Gamble. So I wouldn't say the technology is new per se, but they've been doing a lot of research over the years to make sure what they think is great is actually great.

[B]

You know what? I saw an interesting. So just looking at the ingredients in there, root serum, they have. Well, it's alcohol based, which is interesting.

[A]

Makes it fast drying.

[B]

Yeah, fast drying. But they also have menthol in it. So you're gonna get that cooling effect on there.

[A]

That's really popular in scalp care. And in my previous life, anytime we did scalp products, the feedback was I didn't feel it doing anything. Anytime we develop something and so we always had to put something that the consumer felt in the scalp. It could be cooling, it could be tingling, it could be, oh, a little warming sensation. Consumers want to feel a scalp product actively and then that way they think it's doing something right.

[B]

And actually in the, the video that was linked by Abby Jung, she actually said, asked. Asked that question of the P and G scientists and they said, well, well, another reason is because it lets people know where they've applied it. And so it's like a cue to make sure you apply it all over your scalp. Well, I don't use to me. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, because sometimes everyone has a different sensitivity level. And so you could have menthol on a small portion of your scalp, but more of the nerves in your scalp will react based on signaling. And so. Yeah, I don't know if that's accurate, but that's. That's a nice answer.

[B]

Yeah, it's nice. Now the thing about this, I. I gotta be honest with you, I'm skeptical of this blend of niacinamide, panthenol and paractoneolamine. Only because. Well, first of all, I. I've never been impressed with panthenol. I just. I just have not been.

[A]

And I love it. I love it for hair, I love it for skin. It makes skin and hair feel great. Yeah.

[B]

It's just that I. I'm not convinced it does.

[A]

Is panthenol our new vitamin C? We're just like, I love it, you don't love it.

[B]

I'm just unimpressed by it. And but it's thrown in everything. It's.

[A]

Yeah, like, I'm.

[B]

I'm more. I'm more impressed by niacinamide.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, that's a really wonder molecule when formulated properly.

[B]

But as far as panthenol goes, and then especially seeing studies from Pantene about Panthenol, I find that highly suspect because there's no way Pantene would ever publish a study that says panthenol is just a claims ingredient, which is what I think it reflects, really is.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Their whole line's based on panthenol. Right. So of course they're gonna publish studies, like, but there was also research where they say they combine the three of them and you get more antioxidant effect. Okay. Now what does that translate into the real world anyway? And in these studies that they published, they say that they're against a placebo control, which is great, but. But they don't tell you the ingredients in that placebo control.

[A]

So, yeah, the study's not designed really well in that perspective.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of the effects that you're getting could just be described as, yeah, when you condition hair, it's in better shape than when you don't condition hair. So. Because if you look at the shampoo here, this shampoo is Pantene, and Pantene is one of the best shampoos out there. It's got. And why is it the best shampoo out there? I think mostly the fragrance has a big part of it, but also because it has dimethicone in it, methoconol, it has guar hydroxypropyl, trimonium chloride, the stuff that makes it really work. It's interesting also to me is how high on the list that they put their panthenol, niacinamide, and probably paractoneolamine. That's a total trick. There's no way that they're putting that in higher than 1%. So that, to me, is the 1% line. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But, you know, this seems like a little jiggery pokery going on here, because this is not listed in order of concentrations.

[A]

Well, some of their earliest studies dating back to 2011 actually don't focus on the oxidation pathways within scalp. It actually focused on a portion of this complex, which, by the way, the original complex did have dimethicone in it and did have this polymer in it. So it makes sense what they studied, but essentially they were looking at how does it improve hair density from a breakage perspective. Of course, if you have panthenol, if you have dimethicone and a polymer, and in this case we also have a polymer, you're going to get less breakage on hair. And they also saw a fiber diameter increase of 2 to 5 micrometers, which is, you know, when you have thousands and hundreds of thousands of hairs, it could be a pretty big difference. It's about a 10% increase in the cross section of hair. But they actually didn't focus on any like, real biology in the scalp with their studies initially. Fast forward, you know, maybe they've done some more work. In theory. I could see why they think the molecules work in the way that they say they work, because panthenol is converted to pantothenic acid in skin. Niacinamide is converted to nicotinic acid in skin. And in theory, based on what they do in the body, pantothenic acid is actually part of the cell metabolism, the citric acid cycle. Nicotinic acid is part of a redox reaction with NAD and NADH within the cell. So basically they're, they're part of the energy cycle. So of course, because they are moving electrons around, they would impact oxidation. But in the scalp, which is very thick, and you have to hope that these molecules get into the hair follicle and do these things. I don't know if the study really demonstrates those mechanisms.

[B]

No, that's the part that feels like marketing to me because while the study design is great, at least in the 2015 study they did, there were over 300 people in the study. Yeah, 240 people with dandruff, 60 people without dandruff.

[A]

And they call this a Anti Hair fall study Scalp serum. And they show an impressive number. 85% of consumers saw less hair fall with the system. Well, the system is a shampoo and a conditioner and a serum. And of course you're going to get less breakage when you are using a conditioner and a serum that potentially provides some strength to the hair fiber by applying a polymer to it. I mean, they do also say that, you know, by Anti Hair Fall, they say that it works by reducing oxidative stress to hold hair longer. So that's a different burden of proof, but I don't know. I'm sure it's a great product.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I have no doubt. As far as the product goes, it's, it's a Pantene product. I just am skeptical that it's different than any other Pantene product. Especially looking at the Shampoo. The shampoo and conditioner are Pantene, like Pantene. And then they throw in this oxidative stress story ingredients. But they already had panthenol in there. So the niacinamide, I mean, it doesn't surprise me about niacinamide. P and G loves two ingredients they love for. For skin care, they love niacinamide, and for hair care, they love panthenol. I mean, now they're trying to put that in everything, I guess.

[A]

And those two don't work together in cellular metabolism, so. So I'm surprised to see it's not like there's some synergy between them or anything like that. So, yeah, that's kind of an interesting thought. I'm really disappointed you don't like Pantanol or you're skeptical about it. I didn't know that about you. Do I even know you?

[B]

I don't know. Well, the reason I am is when I first got into the industry, I was way in. You know, I was easily swayed by ingredient suppliers and. And I was shocked at how much panthenol cost. It was an expensive ingredient. And then I had this extra panthenol that I got a sample of it, and I wasn't going to use it, but I had this really expensive batch of panthenol. I'm like, oh, I can just make a shampoo or a conditioner and I'll put in 2% panthenol.

[A]

So that's a lot of panthenol shampoo.

[B]

That's right. And it's the only reason, you know, and the only reason I could do it is because obviously you just got to throw this sample away. But I'm like, oh, I'll just make a shampoo with a ton of it in there, see what I get. And honestly, I got nothing. I mean, it was a fine shampoo, but I didn't get any extra from using a high level like that.

[A]

So I'll tell you why I think panthenol sweet spot is half a percent. I think at 2, you don't see any bigger benefit than a half.

[B]

Yeah, well, I wasn't seeing any benefit from two versus zero, because when I knew placebo control, the difference between when I was doing placebo control and what these companies do is I was comparing with and without, like, the exact system, which is weird in this study.

[A]

But they didn't disclose that what it was.

[B]

Yeah, right. It was published in 2021 called the Scalp Application of Antioxidants. Improved scalp condition reduces hair shedding in a 24 week randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trial. Okay, I love to hear randomized and double blind and placebo controlled. Those are all great. But then they go through the whole paper and they don't tell you what was the placebo. The placebo should have been their shampoo. Their great Pantene shampoo with the dimethicone and the guar versus their great shampoo with the dimethicone guar and all those antioxidants. Why didn't they tell you that? And I'll tell you why.

[A]

Because it was probably done against a 15% SLS solution.

[B]

Exactly. Because that way you get better results than. Because I contend that probably the majority of the results they're getting from this are from the great shampoo that Pantene is not from all that extra jiggery pokery that they're putting in there, in my opinion.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, Diane did have a question kind of related to this. So she wants to know that only recently she's been seeing hair thinning. She does color and highlight her hair. Can a change in hormones cause oxidative stress? I. I think yes.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I have to say I noticed some significant thinning on myself because I, I went on this jungle, rainforest tour or whatever and I slid down these rocks into a pool and somebody took a video of me sliding down this slide from the top and I'm like, my God, I have a huge bald spot. I never get to see that because, you know, I look in the mirror, it's fine. It's just the right on the top. So, yeah, I know all about thinning. Or now I do.

[A]

Oh my goodness. Well, I can definitely say it does. I mean, just think about when you are going through fertility treatments or you have a baby and your hormones are changing all over the place. You can experience extensive hair shedding. Also, cortisol is a hormone and it's a, it's a stress hormone. And definitely that can create reactive oxygen species and create. Which essentially creates oxidative stress in your body. So I definitely think so. I don't think this product would necessarily change any of that. If you do have hair loss due to oxidative stress from hormone change, I just, I'm not sure that that product could do that. Although the conditioner, the shampoo conditioner and serum as a system could help prevent hair fall from breakage. I would just think what it's purported to do. I do believe that.

[B]

Well, also the shampoo and conditioner by themselves Will do that, too. You don't need to.

[A]

Well, yeah, I was be. I was being nice.

[B]

This is why we don't get the big bucks from P and G like some of the other influencers on here.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Well, our next question is actually a really interesting one.

[B]

This question comes to us from Allison. She says, hi. Is this product, which is the lash curl finisher from the ordinary, safe to use by the eye, does it have similar ingredients to mascara? Is it putting plastic on your eyelashes? Is it a clear gel? You're supposed to curl your eyelashes and then use it to hold the shape. All right. Have you used a lash curl finisher?

[A]

You know, I don't curl my lashes because I hate putting contraptions by my eye. And this is a product where they want you to curl your lash first. Actually, that's what it says and in the directions online at least. And then put this gel on, I guess, to hold your lashes in the shape that you put them in. So it's kind of like hair gel, but for your lashes. So that's a really interesting product type. So, no, I've not used anything like this because I don't curl my lashes.

[B]

Yeah, actually they specifically have. It looks like they have hairspray styling polymers in it. Right? They have styrene copolymer, acrylates. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's actually pretty much only hair styling polymers. So, for example, ethylene propylene, styrene copolymer, butylene, ethylene, styrene copolymer, and VP icosine copolymer are really common hairspray polymers, as you mentioned. And then we have acrylates, dimethicone copolymer, which might be too thick in the system a little bit. And then you have squalane. So it's pretty much polymers.

[B]

Yeah. So, well, there's a little glycerin in there too, to keep it all nice and loose, and then a preservative. So, you know, as far as the question of is it safe to use by the eye? I mean, this is a product that is coming from Estee Lauder. So I'm going to say they are doing the eye safety testing that is required, you know, to demonstrate safety. So I would feel okay using it by the eye.

[A]

Anytime you launch a product destined for the eye area and the lashes are part of that, it's really important to conduct ocular safety testing. And as Perry mentioned, the parent companies, Unilever, huge brand, they definitely would do it. But also if they didn't do it. There's some requirements and warnings from the FDA that state if you didn't test safety in the eye area, there's like specific warnings that you are supposed to put. And again, it's such a huge company, I just don't believe that they, if they didn't do the testing, which again, hard to believe. I don't think they would not put the warning like, oh, we're not going to do testing or we're not going to put the legally required warning and see what happens. Like the eye area is the hugest risk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ever. Like people can go blind from stuff. So they're definitely doing their diligence in my belief.

[B]

Now, as far as it having similar ingredients to mascara, I guess mascara has some of those polymers in it, but mascara also has colorant in it and this didn't have any colorant in it.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's the same, similar in the way that it holds, holds your lashes, I guess. And, and it's not putting plastic on your eyelashes because these are not technically microplastics.

[B]

No, they're not. They're actually, I mean, I think they're water soluble polymers. Right. So they're easy enough to remove from your eyes. So, you know, you might see some people say that these are microplastics, but they are water soluble. They're not, they're not microplastics.

[A]

Yeah. And the, I mean, not to get too much into the weeds, but there's a lot of disagreement over what constitutes a microplastic. And there's like the current definition and then there's like a new proposed EU definition. But not all countries agree with it and then not all countries outside of the EU agree with it and some do and some want to make modifications. It's like such confusing legislature happening right now. And I'm not sure we'll see it be finalized anytime soon, but nonetheless, not plastics. Yeah.

[B]

And well, also the thing about legislation is while you would hope these things are based on science, they're influenced by science at best. They're not based on science, they're based on everybody's different kind of opinion and trying to get to some consensus. But when someone says like acrylates copolymer is a microplastic, it's not by the definitions of microplastic. These things break down, whereas microplastics stick around. So yeah, that's the difference. But if you're. There's a group called Beat the Bead or Beat the Mic, I don't know, there's some microplastic ngo and they just put pretty much any polymer that doesn't come from nature is a microplastic. And that's just not the case.

[A]

I'll tell you a funny story. I'm from northeast Ohio originally, which is the home of Lou Rizal, who is a big acrylates derivative producer. They are basically the carbomer inventors, which is an acrylates copolymer. Inky. All I know is, like, I grew up knowing lubrizol made stuff to make gels, and I thought it was, like, gels for the soles of your feet and stuff like that. I didn't know it was, like, for hair gels. But nonetheless, I'm in touch with one of the scientists who works there pretty routinely. He's like a carburetor expert. And one time I asked him, I said, would you. Because you can use carver in gel packs. And now. Now there's gel packs that you can use and pour into plants and then throw the gel pack away versus just throwing the gel pack away full of water. It can actually fertilize household plants and stuff like that. And I said, would you ever eat a plant that you have poured this gel into? Because I was just like, I wouldn't pour water with carbon or into a plant with fertilizer in it and then eat the plant, you know? And he was like, totally. This stuff's, like, so safe. So if a guy who, like, synthesizes this stuff for a living would eat it. I think you can put it on your lashes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Not that you should eat it, but.

[A]

Do not eat this product. But nonetheless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, thanks, Allison, for that great question. And our next question is an audio question.

[B]

Yeah, let me call that up now.

[A]

Hi, Valerie and Terry. My name is G. I was calling to see if you all have any recommendations for barrier repair, specifically moisturizers. I have very dry and dehydrated skin.

[B]

Love your podcast. Thank you. Okay. We love the audio questions. And if you want to get hear your voice on there, you can actually call our call in line at 1-872-216-1856 and leave your question there.

[A]

Wow. Well, it is the dry time of year. My skin's super dry, super itchy. So is Mr. Cosmetic Chemist. The difference is I will put moisturizer on. He will not.

[B]

That's my case, too, actually. I will tell you, my fingertips have been so dry, especially my thumb thumbs that I've actually taken at nighttime to put, like, lotion on my hands. And I wear gloves to bed. Because that's how bad they've been this year.

[A]

Mr. Cosmetic Chemist has to do the same. Because you guys let it get so severe. Then you have to take extreme measures like that. If you just moisturize regularly, you'd be fine.

[B]

Yeah, probably. But then I'd have to remember to do that.

[A]

Now, I have a question. I have a question. Are you only moisturizing your thumb. Thumb. And then putting the gloves on, or are you doing your whole hands and then putting the gloves on?

[B]

I think it's a combination. I'll put it on my hands and rub my hands together and then I put extra on my thumb.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah, very interesting.

[B]

And you know what? You know what product I put on my thumb?

[A]

What are you putting on it? Because. Oh, okay. So G. Perry is recommending Vaseline, which is Petrolatum, which is a really great occlus, elusive and actually market, you know, approved by the FDA to be a skin protectant.

[B]

Right? Yeah, just for that. So now I can only use Vaseline because I'm going to bed and I don't have to use my hands. I wouldn't use Vaseline like just in the morning and then go about my day because that grease will get all over the place. But for going to bed, it's great for that. It's my own personal hand slugging, right?

[A]

You. You were slugging your thumbs.

[B]

I was slugging my thumbs.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Well, gee, not many people want to put just petrolatum on their skin. Although you could put a little bit. I mean, honestly, Baby sees sometimes he has a couple little spots on his body. And I just take a little Snow White pet, which is a purified petrolatum, out of my lab cabinet and just put a little dabby on his dry spots. But I can understand that that's tough, especially if it's your facial skin. Now, the first thing I implore you to do is ascertain whether your skin is dry or dehydrated, because they're actually two different things. And if you look in the show notes, we'll have a link to a Renee Rouleau video. Renee Rouleau is a skincare brand. She's an esthetician. I actually have followed her a long time and I've done some work with their blogs and. And stuff like that. But essentially she has a really great way to ascertain whether you have dry skin or dehydrated skin because they are two different things.

[B]

But for dehydrated skin, you don't treat it with Gatorade. Right.

[A]

You do not. And you cannot drink your way to hydrated skin. Exactly. Yeah. So first ascertain that because skin does need water and so dehydrated skin, skin is lacking a high water content, whereas dry skin is like visible flakes and that kind of thing and it's like ready to come off. So figure that piece out and no matter what you do, you want to make sure before you put on a petrolatum or a really rich moisturizer, you want to make sure that your skin is hydrated so you can add water content back to the skin and then lock it in with and occlusive. So whatever you're doing for this barrier repair one, get your skin hydrated and then lock it in with something rich. I really like the skin fix moisturizers, to be honest. They have a couple different versions and they have ceramides in them which your outermost layers of skin contain about 45% ceramide composition and you need to replenish those if you do have a damaged barrier. There's also a really nice ceramide fluid from a brand called prequel and it's prequel half and half peptides and Ceramide fluid moisturizer. It's literally like a super duper thin liquid. But you can supplement that with your existing moisturizer and it's going to help restore some of that fatty feel to the skin. I've really been enjoying that one.

[B]

You know, I don't really use it much, but when I have used it, I have always enjoyed Eucerin for that kind of.

[A]

Oh, that's also a great one. Yeah, we've used that one before as well. Mr. Cosmetic Chemist for his hands likes working hands. It's in a hideous green bottle. You can get it from Amazon. Sure that one's done a really great job for him, but I wouldn't put that on the face. It's like pretty rich, right?

[B]

It's not a face one.

[A]

Exactly. Well, our fourth question question comes to.

[B]

Us from Mary Rhodes. She says, hey, beauty brains, avid listener here and love the updates on the kittens. I have fine thin hair and have been blow drying my hair more versus air drying. I've been debating on spending the money on an expensive ionic hair dryer, but not sure sure they actually help decrease damage versus just a regular old hair dryer. Any advice on that? Thanks and happy New Year. Well, we have covered ionic hair dryers in the past, but you know, what the heck, we answer the questions we get and we haven't talked about them in a While. But so what makes an ionic dryer different than just a regular old dryer?

[A]

Well, ionic dryers are just one type of dryer. There's also infrastructure infrared, which output heat to help dry the hair. And then those will blow the heat past a fan motor onto the hair, then the heat evaporates the water. But there's also this concept of ionic hair dryers. And you know, coming from the hair world where we actually developed and sold professional tools, I always felt this was a little bit of a, a marketing shtick. I'm not really aware of real science. Yeah, I'm not really aware of, aware of real science. But essentially, you know, these dryer developers overseas will claim, oh, we have the ability to generate ions and they're usually negative ions or they'll pass the air over tourmaline, which is a mineral. And it essentially blows these ions onto the hair and the ions that come out from the dryer blast up and break up water.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because water is slightly polar. So it has, you know, this imbalance like microcharge within it. And by the time or because these molecules get busted up, they're able to leave the hair faster, resulting in shorter drying time. Now again, I've never seen scientific evidence on this. Even working with people who had experience, experience working with the people developing these tools, it was always like really loosey goosey explanations. And so pretty much I would just get a hair dryer that you actually can hold for a period of time and that's easy to use, doesn't make your hair smell because sometimes dryers can get hair caught in them and then they smell and then the smell gets on your hair. I think that is the dryer I would get.

[B]

Yeah, it's the, the ion part is really marketing. But there is some differences in different hair dryers just in the ergonomics of it, the, the temperatures that they can reach and how long they last. Those are more important factors than whether it's spraying negative ions at you or not.

[A]

So spray. Well, when you put it like that. Oh my gosh. I have, I've used a lot of dryers only because I, I came from like a salon professional background and I currently have a, A Dyson dryer.

[B]

That's right. You love your Dyson.

[A]

Yeah, I mean I actually really like it because the air doesn't feel. It's kind of hard to explain. When you get like a really entry level hair dryer, it's like literally lights up like a toaster and then it just blows that hot air at your head. And I don't feel like it does a great job of allowing you to align the fibers very nicely. The heat's inconsistent. They tend to burn out quickly. And the reason I like the Dyson is it doesn't feel like toaster wind on your hair.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it actually is a very consistent temperature, very consistent airflow. But the product problem is like the handle's extremely long, so it's like kind of hard to maneuver over your head. The clips that go on the front are magnetic, so they tend to get bumped off very easily while you're working with it. And it's honestly like really heavy. The cord's very heavy. And so it's just not a pleasant experience. When I was in the salon world, there is a very tiny dryer called the Hairy Drawer Pro Dryer. It's mint green. It's insanely expensive for what it is. It's 280 bucks. But that thing is so tiny and we actually had to hide it in our lab because the stylus would basically steal it from each other because they loved using it because it was so lightweight and easy to maneuver. And so if you have a lot of hair and like takes you a long time, you want something light and tiny and. And that's the one they really loved. And I don't think it has ionic technology. I just think people like it because it's mint green and tiny and therefore people use it because it's tiny.

[B]

Those factors are more important about which air dryer you're going to get versus any sort of ion sprays. Speaking of sprays, we got a question from Misty.

[A]

Oh my God. I can't believe you did that. That's good. Hi, beauty brains. I have tightly coiled, natural curly hair. I'd always struggled to find products that worked for me. Until about 10 years ago, I discovered Renpure Coconut whipped Cream leave in conditioner. It always left my curls defined and frizz free with no need for a gel or other styling product. It was discontinued several years ago. So I stocked up back in 2023 and am still going through my stash. Eventually I'll run out and I'll need to find something else. I have two questions. Is there something unique about the combination of ingredients to keep my curls defined and frizz free versus other leave in conditioners or styling products? Second question. Does it contain adequate preservatives for it still to be safe years later, I'm keeping an eye out for changes in smell and color. But I'm wondering if I'm pushing My luck. Thanks for all you do. Love the show and keep the chit chat coming.

[B]

Oh, well, that's nice. Hey, let's do that. First, second question first, about the preservatives I'm looking at. She included the ingredient list, which was handy. And I see in there we have diazolidinylurea and ideopropyl butylcarbamate. And the bottom line is this thing will be stable for a long time, so you shouldn't worry about any microbial growth here.

[A]

Do not worry. Yeah, those are really great. They're used at very, very, very tiny lengths levels. Super effective. I've never had a preservative system fail with this combination. And so from that perspective, I agree. You're going to be in good hands.

[B]

Yeah. And I have, you know, I have some shampoo formulas that I've had for over 10 years, and they're still perfectly fine.

[A]

So you haven't finished a shampoo in 10 years. You're still working on it?

[B]

No, I had this batch of boxes of shampoo, like, almost like a pallet full of shampoo.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that whole thing. Okay. I was like, come on, Perry, this is getting ridiculous.

[B]

No, but it takes me a long time to go through, like, you know, 300 bottles or something, so do you.

[A]

Think we could give some away?

[B]

We could. You know we could, but seems like a lot of work. Oh, my goodness. If patrons are interested in it, we have some shampoo they could get.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Well, the first question is a great question, because I know it's awesome when you find a product that really works for you. And we want to dig into what's working in here for you so that when you run out, you can go find something that you feel just as good about.

[B]

Yeah. All right. So this is a pretty standard kind of a conditioning emulsion. It's got water first, and then cetyl alcohol, which are standard, and glycerol stearate to keep it all together. But then I'm seeing behene trimonium chloride, which is a conditioning ingredient, and then guar hydroxypropyl trimonium chloride, which is a styling polymer. And then we get into the oils and extracts and stuff.

[A]

And then we have amodimethicone cetrimonium chloride, and silicone quaternium 17.

[B]

Ah, yes.

[A]

I love that material. It makes hair feel really great.

[B]

Yeah. I don't see anything in this formula that is unique, right?

[A]

No. If you had to go. If you had to go looking for a new leave in conditioner I would focus on the behem trimonium chloride that's doing a lot of the heavy lift for you. And then I would also ensure that the amodimethicone is present and you don't necessarily need silicone. Quaternium 17. I mean it is a really special silicone quad that makes hair feel really soft and helps reduce frizz. It'd be a bonus if you could find it. But I think the things that you need to look for behentra ammonium chloride and ammo dimethicone and maybe you know what, maybe coconut oil if you wanted to see another oil in it. But that's very common.

[B]

Some kind of oil like that. Yeah, but those other things like the red algae extract and the seaweed that and the pea protein, those things aren't really doing much in with the background of all these other ingredients in it.

[A]

No, not at all.

[B]

Yeah, but it makes people buy it. Speaking of buy it, you hear that music?

[A]

Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to the show and leave us a review that's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

[B]

Speaking of questions, if you have one, you can just record on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can use the form that's in the show notes to fill that out for the questions. Or if you want your voice on there, just dial in 1-872-216-1856 and leave us a voicemail. Hey, the Beauty Brains are also on Patreon. You know, we don't take any ads in the show and so, and probably for good reason because Pantene's not gonna contact us.

[A]

Not anymore.

[B]

But sorry P and G, we love your products. But anyway, if you are interested in hearing our unbiased takes, then you can support the [e-mail] thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. And sometimes we have drawings for books and products. Apparently.

[A]

We'Re gonna have an exciting year for our patrons. We need to do better for you. Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at The Beauty Brains 2018 on experts. Beauty Brains on Blue Sky Worth the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a tick tock and a YouTube.

[B]

Yeah, and that's we're starting to get some views or listens on YouTube, which is interesting. Maybe, maybe this year we're gonna put some. Some video of us actually on there. Now we just have a static picture, but some people just like to listen through YouTube.

[A]

We'll have to make sure we use the Pantene Abundant and Strong system. So our hair looks really good when we do do that.

[B]

That's. Hey, ftc. That was not a sponsored ad.

[A]

Not at all, because I'm gonna go buy it. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[B]

Thanks, everyone. Kittens.