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- [00:00]
Valerie George
Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 390. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.
- [00:27]
Perry Romanowski
Hello, Valerie. Great to see you.
- [00:29]
Valerie George
Great to see you. We have a good show today, including lots of questions covering. Can you make your own gray treatment shampoo at home? Is an at home micro needling system a good addition to a skincare routine? What is Squalane? And why does my skin love products that have it in it? Why can't you feel the menthol effect everywhere on your skin as strongly as other places? And what's the difference between body lotion, cleanser, face lotion, or just cleanser? But first, inane chit chat.
- [00:59]
Perry Romanowski
Well, Valerie, it's good to see you. I just got back from Florida. It was one of these road trips. You know how long it takes to drive from Chicago to Florida?
- [01:08]
Valerie George
19 hours. Well, I'm going to say to the top of Florida, 19.
- [01:12]
Perry Romanowski
You're right. 19 hours it took. It was. Actually, we came right back from Orlando. I was at Disney World.
- [01:18]
Valerie George
Okay.
- [01:19]
Perry Romanowski
For a day. We went there for a day. And you know what I will remember about Disney World?
- [01:24]
Valerie George
People? Lines.
- [01:25]
Perry Romanowski
The lines.
- [01:26]
Valerie George
Yes.
- [01:28]
Perry Romanowski
You know, I kind of just brushed off the expensiveness. I mean, like, this is what stuff is. But the lines, I mean, you know, you're waiting in line for a. We waited in line for this Peter Pan ride, which Shannon remembered it from when she was younger. And she went there and she's like, oh, this is my favorite ride. And the line was like an hour long or over an hour. And you get on the ride and the ride lasts like 90 seconds. That was totally not worth it.
- [01:56]
Valerie George
Yeah, I'm not an amusement park person myself. I just, you know, it's great. But you know, just the people, the crowds, the waiting. I don't like to be on rides anyway, so I'm usually the official bag holder of any trip.
- [02:09]
Perry Romanowski
That's good. Well, I had a good time. I mean, I do like the roller coasters. They had the Tron roller coaster and Space Mountain. Those were all cool. But there was a lot of waiting. And, you know, I'm glad I take meditation because I remember when I was a youth, the waiting was just unbearable to me. Now the waiting is not too bad.
- [02:28]
Valerie George
Well, that's good that you've been able to overcome that.
- [02:31]
Perry Romanowski
And what have you been up to? Since I was in Florida.
- [02:34]
Valerie George
Well, while you were in Florida, I've done a couple things. So first, I went back to Kent State, where I went to college, and I had some really great meetings there with the university, so that was good. I got to see my family back home. And then I did a Girl Scout activity with super fan Summer, who listens to the show. She's in seventh grade, huge fan of the podcast.
- [02:56]
Perry Romanowski
Oh, nice.
- [02:56]
Valerie George
And Summer's also a Girl Scout, and so her family reached out to me and said, hey, we would love if you could do a Girl Scout activity with the troop here in the Dallas area. And we made lotions.
- [03:09]
Perry Romanowski
Oh, that's so fun.
- [03:10]
Valerie George
It was really fun. Yeah. I talked about a career as a cosmetic chemist. I talked a little bit about a basic emulsion theory of, like, how a lotion becomes a lotion once you mix oil and water together. They got to take care of the branding and marketing side, so they got to, you know, name the lotion, design the label, make the label. Yeah. And then they got to take it home.
- [03:30]
Perry Romanowski
Wow, that sounds so fun. And it's a great way to learn about a little bit of the emulsion science.
- [03:37]
Valerie George
Exactly. And Summer, actually, because she listens to the show, she brought a little gift, not for me, but for Pretty Kitty, and it was Fancy Feast. Pretty Kitty loves non seafood flavors, and so it was like turkey and chicken. Yeah.
- [03:51]
Perry Romanowski
Wait, you know enough about Pretty Kitty that, you know her taste in food.
- [03:57]
Valerie George
Yeah, she kind of gets, like, really, you know, fussy when you, like, try to drop seafood on her. She's not a seafood fan.
- [04:03]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. I have this one alley cat, PK clone who loves whipped cream.
- [04:10]
Valerie George
Wow.
- [04:11]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah.
- [04:12]
Valerie George
How'd you find that out?
- [04:13]
Perry Romanowski
You know, I used to give the cats, like, a little dish of milk, and most of them sort of ignore it. But pk, she always liked it. And then I had this whipped cream, and I just sprayed the whipped cream, and she just loves whipped cream.
- [04:26]
Valerie George
Wow. Isn't it funny? Like, cats have distinct taste, too. You know, they're just like, I don't like that.
- [04:31]
Perry Romanowski
Like, the heat Miser has no interest in whipped cream. But pk, she loves it. I know, and I know that's how.
- [04:38]
Valerie George
You could lure her inside.
- [04:39]
Perry Romanowski
Well, no, she's a super skittish. She barely. If I open the door, she's backs off. Then she sees the whipped cream, and she'll wait until I close the door, but then she'll run to the whipped cream. She also likes salmon skins and stuff more than the other Guys do, but. And I to all the people out there who say, oh, you're not supposed to give cats dairy. I know, but she likes it. So, you know, I give her a little bit. So there you go.
- [05:03]
Valerie George
Yeah, she's an alley cat. Let her have a little luxury in life.
- [05:07]
Perry Romanowski
Exactly. Actually, I wrote a song about her called Whipped Cream Dreams and Salmon Skins.
- [05:15]
Valerie George
You'Ll have to play at the end of the show.
- [05:17]
Perry Romanowski
But fortunately, all the alley cats were perfectly in fine shape. Even though I was gone for two weeks, I was worried a little bit about them. It got really cold. But boy, they are hearty ones.
- [05:27]
Valerie George
I almost forgot that it was winter because it's like 80 degrees here in Dallas.
- [05:33]
Perry Romanowski
Well, in Florida it was that hot. But in Chicago it was like 4 degrees. I was worried about it the whole time.
- [05:39]
Valerie George
Same in Ohio. I was like, oh my gosh, it's freezing.
- [05:42]
Perry Romanowski
That's right.
- [05:42]
Valerie George
Let's head over to Beauty News.
- [05:50]
Perry Romanowski
Valerie, I saw this article in Cosmetic Business that said misleading marketing dosages of ingredients in beauty products are beauty products labels lying to you? So this article highlights how beauty brands are using misleading marketing tactics by emphasizing trendy ingredients without disclosing actual concentrations or the efficacy. Many products contain too little of an active ingredient to deliver promised benefits. Yet vague claims like infused or powered with to create this false perception of potency. And due to the regulations, brands are not required to disclose active percentages and that leads to consumer misconceptions. People just kind of assume a higher concentrations of ingredients are going to be better and they think that if it's in there, it's going to be better. So they say experts are advocating for greater transparency in consumer education to ensure informed purchasing decisions. So what, what do you think of that? Are beauty products labels misleading you?
- [06:53]
Valerie George
I don't think they're misleading per se. I mean, for sure, sometimes the marketing is misleading, especially when you say infused with or powered by for sure. But on the other hand, I don't believe that a consumer based off a percentage of one or two ingredients has the knowledge to understand if that ingredient is providing a benefit or not. Because you can have a very low quantity of an ingredient. And more is not more. In fact, more doesn't do anything. There's a great example. I have Bakuchiol, the manufacturer of the purest form of Bakuchiol on the market recommends for half a percent to 1% maximum.
- [07:35]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [07:35]
Valerie George
And I contacted them and I said, well, what happens if you wanted to use 2%? And the manufacturer, the gentleman who invented the raw material, said, you don't need to. It doesn't do anything at 2%, more than 1% and in fact could be doing more harm because it's a natural material, et cetera. So I found that to be interesting. But a consumer might say, well, wow, half a percent. They don't understand that the clinical studies were conducted at half a percent on the material, or they don't understand that even at 0.2%, which might not be a clinical, you know, in air quotes, amount of a raw material can still be effective because it has penetration enhancers or an efficient delivery system into the skin. So I don't think providing percentages to consumers is helpful unless it's something like a retinol or a niacinamide, maybe. Because again, it's sometimes about the holistic. Yeah, a view of the formula and how it was made.
- [08:35]
Perry Romanowski
I mean, the reality is, the thing that makes most products give benefits to consumers are things like petrolatum and mineral oil and the moisturizing things, but nobody wants to buy that. People want to buy the hyaluronic acids and the retinols and, you know, the stem cells or the hot topics, hot ingredients. They're not interested in the things that are actually making it work. Like, who wants to know their shampoo is sodium lauryl sulfate and that's the detergent that's cleaning your hair. Now they want the infused hyaluronic acid or the ceramides or whatever. They want to buy that. They don't want to buy the thing that works.
- [09:16]
Valerie George
How disappointed would they be if you said, well, my hyaluronic acid is in here at 0.05%, right. Oh, but it's a high molecular weight hyaluronic acid, and it feels really disgusting if you use much more. Like those, aren't they things you can convey?
- [09:30]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [09:31]
Valerie George
When you just give someone a percentage who doesn't have formulating expertise, clinical testing expertise, expertise and penetration into skin or on hair.
- [09:40]
Perry Romanowski
There's definitely beauty labels are misleading you. They're designed that way because they want you to buy stuff. I don't think anybody directly lies except really unscrupulous companies. You know, sure, there's plenty of those, but the big companies, your P and GS, your l'oreals, they never directly lie on their stuff. They can support every claim that they're making, but those claims are, you know, sometimes misleading. When I was on the Bo5 brand, we sold this aloe vera shampoo and, you know, aloe vera was in there at 1% of a 1% solution. So 0.001%. And it's water soluble. I mean, it's just going to rinse down the drain. But it was in a green, green color. The packaging was all about aloe on the front. It's all about moisturizing. It's the same stuff. So in that way it was kind of misleading. But nobody was lying saying, you know, nobody ever said this aloe is going to be moisturizing. You say this formula with aloe is moisturizing?
- [10:42]
Valerie George
Yeah, it's all in the language. Exactly where the apostrophe or comma lies. Well, there was another interesting article about tween beauty products. I made a LinkedIn post last week because California is at it again. A second attempt to regulate the sale of products containing retinols exfoliating acids. AHAs. Yeah, the whole bill is really crazy. But basically they don't want people under the age of 18 to be able to buy these products, which I think is so hard to police and control. But anyway, so I found this cosmetics design article interesting. Can you really formulate beauty products that are different for teens and tweens? And it turns out there's one brand that thinks you can.
- [11:27]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, this is Kinside, that's from Australia. They think that the industry is not doing enough to offer safe, effective and clearly marketed solutions for Gen Alpha. Which Gen Alpha? I guess that's the teens and tweens these days.
- [11:43]
Valerie George
Exactly.
- [11:45]
Perry Romanowski
So wait, we got, we got Generation Z and then we just skipped over back to Alpha. So this is.
- [11:52]
Valerie George
I know. Well, I was actually at a conference and they were like, who's thinking about Generation Beta? And I'm like, if you were thinking about Gen Beta, you are messed up in the brain because these people aren't even born yet.
- [12:03]
Perry Romanowski
It's like, wow.
- [12:05]
Valerie George
Yeah. How predatory. Oh, my goodness.
- [12:07]
Perry Romanowski
I guess it started with what we had, Baby Boomers, then we have Gen X. So then they had X, Y, Z. I guess somewhere in there is a millennial, but I guess that's the. The wise.
- [12:15]
Valerie George
Or I think, yeah, millennials are wise.
- [12:18]
Perry Romanowski
Okay, so xyz, now we get Gen Alpha. Okay. Anyway, so there, this notion of this Australia company is that they're trying to develop products specifically for teens and tweens. Because, you know, this, this group is buying a lot based on their social media influencing and apparently their parents have no problem giving them money to buy stuff. Because, you know, when I was a kid, I didn't have money for this stuff.
- [12:52]
Valerie George
No, not at all. Well, the brand is not saying they're a little. I think Accusatory and they're saying brands aren't doing enough to create products suitable for teen skin. But I say there are many teen brands out there that yes, they are putting exfoliating acids in. I don't know of any that are using retinols but, but you know, they're putting ingredients and products that teens don't need. They're creating routines for skincare that teens don't need. You need to cleanse your face, wear sunscreen and moisturize and maybe use a physical exfoliant once a week if you're a teen, to me that's what you need. But teens are obsessed with beauty and self care and so they're looking to these 10 step routines, they're looking to K beauty. So I think it's unfair to say that brands aren't, aren't doing enough because there are many specific teen and tween brands out there. They don't want them, they want the drunk elephants, they want bubble, they want glossier, they want things that are designed.
- [13:55]
Perry Romanowski
That their parents are using. Yeah, exactly. It's so strange how kids are these days. Maybe I just sound like an old guy, but when I was a kid I sort of looked for products that were sort of targeted for teens. I didn't look to get the stuff that my parents had. But now the kids these days, like they want the latest Apple iPhone. Before I would get the hand me downs of the old stuff, now they want the. I mean my 16 year old niece has a better iPhone than I do. So it's just a different mentality, I guess.
- [14:33]
Valerie George
Yeah. And so I think you can create a brand for teens and tweens. They're still going to want the other stuff. You're not going to change consumer habits just because you're creating a product. There are plenty of products out there, that's my opinion.
- [14:46]
Perry Romanowski
I think most of the products also that are out there, the general products, they are appropriate for teens and tween skin. Most products don't have high levels of exfoliating acids or you know, ceramides or anti aging ingredients. Most don't. You could find plenty of brands that don't have those. Of course the stuff that they want, they're influenced, it's influenced by social media to want these things that they probably don't need. I don't know if making a brand, if that has anything to do with the people that are creating the products. That's all I'm saying.
- [15:25]
Valerie George
Exactly. Well, there was one more interesting article. Top 10Amazon Beauty Brands by Market share, and it's based on the number of reviews in per millions that are out there. And I just want to talk about a couple of them. So what do you think the number one selling brand on Amazon is? Well, I know you saw the article, so pretend you didn't peek.
- [15:48]
Perry Romanowski
Well, Cerave is the number one, which, you know, I found a little surprising. But now that I get.
- [15:57]
Valerie George
I would have said. I would have said Cerave or Cetaphil.
- [15:59]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. But now that I think about it, just based on what I'm exposed to online in other places, I do see Cerave a lot. I would have thought something like Olaplex would be up there too. I see people talk about that a lot. Although the chatter on Olaplex seems to be way down. It used to be. It used to be everywhere, but it seems to be down. But as far as beauty brands, CeraVe is still up there. Although wasn't Cetaphil another one?
- [16:26]
Valerie George
I always thought Cetaphil is one that I would have mentioned. It's, you know, very similar to survey, but I think Survey is more popular with younger demographics.
- [16:34]
Perry Romanowski
Gotcha.
- [16:35]
Valerie George
Than Cetaphil.
- [16:36]
Perry Romanowski
And. And they're more likely probably to buy Amazon stuff than older people who go to the store still.
- [16:43]
Valerie George
Yeah. Or their parents, you know. Oh, yeah. I'll add it in the cart for you.
- [16:46]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [16:47]
Valerie George
Next up is Nutrafol, and they were at 5.6% of market share. They're really hot in scalp care right now.
- [16:56]
Perry Romanowski
You know, it is interesting how many of these top 10 brands that I've not really even heard of because. So Nutrafol, I'm. I'm not even familiar with them.
- [17:05]
Valerie George
They're a Unilever brand.
- [17:06]
Perry Romanowski
Are they? Wow.
- [17:08]
Valerie George
Yeah.
- [17:09]
Perry Romanowski
They must have bought that.
- [17:10]
Valerie George
Acquired. Yeah, they did. They did, yeah. La Roche Posay and Sol de Janeiro came in next. I'm not surprised with La Roche Posay, that's a little bit higher end. And people are, you know, looking to get that great prices on Amazon. Sol de Janeiro, even all the teens know what this product is. They make the Brazilian Bum Bum cream. The fragrance is unforgettable.
- [17:30]
Perry Romanowski
We've talked about that.
- [17:31]
Valerie George
People of all ages, I should say. Yeah. Next we have Clean Skin Club, which I hadn't really heard of.
- [17:37]
Perry Romanowski
I've never heard of.
- [17:38]
Valerie George
Probably an Amazon brand. Yeah. Paula's Choice up next. Also a Unilever company, Hero Cosmetics, Cosrx, which I know is having a great surge in business.
- [17:48]
Perry Romanowski
Are they?
- [17:49]
Valerie George
And then Neutrogena.
- [17:50]
Perry Romanowski
Wow.
- [17:51]
Valerie George
Is in the top. And actually Neutrogena has the top number of reviews at 1.9 million. And then Eltamd is next.
- [17:59]
Perry Romanowski
I'm a little surprised that I'm not seeing any PNG products here or I'm.
- [18:06]
Valerie George
Surprised I'm not seeing more hair.
- [18:07]
Perry Romanowski
It's a lot of skin like Olay. You would expect to be up there.
- [18:13]
Valerie George
Yeah, right.
- [18:13]
Perry Romanowski
Wouldn't you?
- [18:14]
Valerie George
Well, Amazon's really pushing like premium beauty on their space. So I think we're seeing a mix of like kind of more expensive mass products and then like a little edge into the massige premium space.
- [18:27]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. Although Neutrogena is not. I. Neutrogena is just drugstore brand. Right.
- [18:34]
Valerie George
Yeah. Which by the way they have a lot of great products that are safe for younger skin.
- [18:38]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, yeah, they do. Well, it's interesting now this Costrx, I haven't. I'm not familiar with them. Is that a. Do they have a specific brand? Is that a company? I guess that's the.
- [18:49]
Valerie George
Oh, it's the brand. It's skin care. Yeah, they have a lot of really cute stuff. Yeah, they're really great. It's like K beauty type products.
- [18:56]
Perry Romanowski
Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess that's it. It would be interesting to compare this top Amazon brands to what you'd find at top Target brands or top Walmart brands. I don't think there's going to be a lot of overlap. App.
- [19:09]
Valerie George
No. Well, I think Neutrogena probably would be pretty top. There's a pretty big Neutrogena display at both of those stores.
- [19:16]
Perry Romanowski
CeraVe too also.
- [19:18]
Valerie George
Exactly.
- [19:19]
Perry Romanowski
Certainly at Target. But some of these other ones, like I've never seen hero cosmetics.
- [19:25]
Valerie George
Me neither. But again they might be Amazon might be their space.
- [19:28]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, well, well, very interesting. We'll see how those things grow over time.
- [19:34]
Valerie George
Exactly. We have a little bit of listener feedback from a past show from Tara.
- [19:40]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, you know we did that question about fragrance free hair care which is.
- [19:48]
Valerie George
Back in the very hard to find quality products.
- [19:51]
Perry Romanowski
Right. 385. And she said she out of necessity had to find fragrance free stuff because there are some specific fragrance ingredients she's allergic to. They were like cinnamaldehyde and some of the, you know, the 26 fragrance allergies.
- [20:07]
Valerie George
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:08]
Perry Romanowski
Anyway, she says her favorite is the pure sensitive shampoo by nature clean. And she says the conditioner is good too. She also looked at likes the line sky by Green Cricket but she wasn't.
- [20:25]
Valerie George
A fan of their marketing. But she said the products were okay.
- [20:27]
Perry Romanowski
Right. Because the marketing is like Paraben free sulfate Free that, that kind of stu. It was sort of the free from claims which tried to scare people, but she said she liked the product, so.
- [20:37]
Valerie George
Oh, great. Thank you so much for your feedback.
- [20:40]
Perry Romanowski
Well, based on that feedback, she also said, hey, I also have a question, so why don't we move into questions. Yeah.
- [20:50]
Valerie George
Tara says, and I have a question. How clever of her. As I get older and get more gray hair, I know I'll want to use some sort of perfect purple or toning treatment or shampoo for it. I've started looking but I haven't found any fragrance free options. Do you know of any or is there some sort of concentrate where I can add a few drops to my regular shampoo? I want to have nice looking gray hair eventually, but it's not worth my whole face breaking out in a painful rash. Appreciate you two so much. Tara from Canada.
- [21:18]
Perry Romanowski
Well, it's an interesting question because I think, I think a consumer can. Well, basically these purple toning treatment shampoos, they use violet number two. That's the main dye.
- [21:32]
Valerie George
And if you also known as acid violet 43, depending on the geography you're in.
- [21:36]
Perry Romanowski
Yep. So as long as you use enough of it, it can help to stain the, the, the yellowness or the grayness and it'll help offset the. I guess it's helping offset the yellowness of, you know, not quite gray hairs.
- [21:53]
Valerie George
Yeah, gray hair does turn yellow. I have a whole presentation about it, the mechanism which has been studied actually within the last 15 years or, you know, almost 18 years, people have really been interested in why gray hair looks yellow. I thought it was from people smoking cigarettes, but it turns out it actually has to do with the color of the keratin gets yellow over time. So it's not yellow pigment or anything like that.
- [22:17]
Perry Romanowski
Well, anyway, to be fair, probably some of it is from when they were smoking cigarettes too. So there's that.
- [22:23]
Valerie George
It could be depending on the person. Yeah. So when you have any yellowish tinge to hair, purple is. Or violet is a complimentary color and it will neutralize that gray hair to help brighten it. Even if the gray hair is not yellow, it's going to help perk it up and make the gray look a little bit more vibrant. So purple shampoo is a great option. Now you just can't go get the purple dye from places one. I mean you could go find it on the Internet, but dyes have a lot of impurities and you have to buy from a really qualified source. So I would never recommend just go getting the pigment off of The Internet never ever, ever, ever. The second thing is you add infinitesimal amounts of purple pigment to a product. It's so tiny because it's, you know, very, very potent or it can be. And unless you know what you're doing, this dye is very regulated. I just don't recommend it. So I would recommend, when I was at Paul Mitchell, I formulated a product called Bondrx Toning drops and it's a little acid violet 43 or violet 2 concentrate. It doesn't have fragrance or botanical extracts in it. And you basically put a pump or two into your shampoo or conditioner at the time of use, mix it in your hands and then apply it to your hair. So it's a little concentrated serum, I guess you could say.
- [23:48]
Perry Romanowski
Ah, very clever.
- [23:49]
Valerie George
So you wouldn't use a serum on its own. You would put it into whatever product you want.
- [23:52]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, I like that idea. It would work to mix it in with your product before putting it on the serum would.
- [24:01]
Valerie George
Now the other aspect is like you have to have special solubility parameters to get dyes into a shampoo. So that's another reason why you just can't post ad.
- [24:09]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [24:10]
Valerie George
You have to like pre add at the beginning.
- [24:12]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. Because surfactant can interfere though. That dye is mostly water soluble.
- [24:18]
Valerie George
So you do need some other stuff though to get it in and stay in for sure. So anyway, I recommend just buying a pre made. Pre made concentrate.
- [24:25]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, do it. All right. Look at this. Valerie, you know what's special about today's show? We have not one, not two, not well. Yeah. Three. Three audio questions.
- [24:36]
Valerie George
Wow, how impressive. I asked and I shall receive.
- [24:39]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. So our first comes to us from Audrey. Let's see if I can get this to play for you.
- [24:46]
Audrey
Hello beauty brains. My name is Audrey from Canada and I have a question for you regarding the cure micro infusion system. Your thoughts regarding their different serums, the ingredients and the ability to penetrate deep in the skin with the at home micro needling system they offer. Do you really think it could be a great addition to a skincare routine or it is not worth it and it's better to go to a derm office for that kind of treatment. Thank you very much.
- [25:22]
Perry Romanowski
Okay, micro needling or go to a derm office. So this Q micro infused system, taking a look at it, they say it saves time and money. It's quick. Quick and easy. Five minutes virtually painful list. Pain. Virtually painless.
- [25:40]
Valerie George
Yeah.
- [25:41]
Perry Romanowski
Whoa.
- [25:41]
Valerie George
Freudian slip.
- [25:42]
Perry Romanowski
A little painful. Perfect for transforming dull looking skin before. And it's a two in one system to rejuvenate skin and infuses the serum deeper and faster. And they have some illustrations. So it's.
- [25:58]
Valerie George
Yeah, some planes. Performance perception. Yeah, so they have some performance perception claims. So 70% of participants say their lines fine, lines look smoother. 93% notice results the next day. After the first treatment, 70% said their skin looked brighter and more even toned. And I don't know if there was a control where they just put the serum on and then they did one side where they put the serum with microneedling. I don't know how they did it. I'm gonna guess they just had people do the whole shebang.
- [26:27]
Perry Romanowski
Exactly.
- [26:28]
Valerie George
And yeah, so I would say if you love the way your skin feels and looks after doing at home micro needling, a lot of people love it. That's awesome. Do it. But I always feel like when you go to a dermatologist office, they have the real deal there because you can only really do so much at home. And so I would say obviously you're not going to go every week and get something done. But I think to have a treatment at the derm office, you're going to see longer, better results than something you do at home one time. So you kind of have to weigh the cost because it's not inexpensive. I think they said something like it's 1 19amonth. You know, if you wanted a whole month's supply worth of stuff, which in the grand scheme of things, you know, I guess that's the price of an expensive serum. You know, usually a serum is 1.7 ounces. If you use it every day, it lasts about a month, maybe six weeks. And so I guess that would be a wash. But I guess I would say you have to really like it. I'm not sure that there's a benefit consumers are going to notice over going to a dermatologist's office or just using serums on their own and having a great skincare routine.
- [27:39]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. I've not seen any evidence that this micro needling adds some extra benefit to a serum that you're using. So I'm a little skeptical of it. And I'm looking at the pricing of this. They say the cost is less than $25 per treatment.
- [27:58]
Valerie George
That's pretty expensive.
- [28:00]
Perry Romanowski
Right? Like what, what does the. The supply. Three months supply? A mere $150. So there you go. Yeah, it's. I mean, I guess people spend that much on just a serum, right?
- [28:16]
Valerie George
They can for sure.
- [28:18]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah.
- [28:18]
Valerie George
So, yeah, I think it just comes down to if you love it or not?
- [28:21]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. I wouldn't expect to get anything extra out of here that you couldn't get for some other serum. But, you know, this is all very personal, and if you feel like it's making an improvement for you, then it's worth keeping doing. I'm not very impressed with these before and after pictures that have completely different lighting on them, but that's just. Just what sells products, I guess.
- [28:45]
Valerie George
Well, our next question comes to us from a new patron, Karen, and it's also an audio question.
- [28:51]
Perry Romanowski
All right, Karen, let's hear that question.
- [28:54]
Karen
Hi, Perry and Valerie. I'm a longtime listener and brand new patron, and I have a question and a challenge for you. So first I want to know what is squalene or squalene? And why does my skin love products in it or that have it in it? Also, my challenge is I urge you to try the tubing mascara by Thrive Cosmetics. I think you'll see it's more than just marketing because I've never had a mascara not flake or end up under my eyes or just be all smudgy. And the removal is really so easy. So that's what I have to say. And thanks for everything. Love hearing about the kitties. Take care.
- [29:37]
Valerie George
Bye.
- [29:38]
Perry Romanowski
Let's go squalene first and then we can go to the tubing after that.
- [29:42]
Valerie George
Yeah. Well, I think what Karen means is squalane. A lot of people confuse squalane and squalene. And squalene is an instable triterpene hydrocarbon that readily oxidizes or can be hydrogenated to form squalane, which is the most common cosmetic material.
- [30:03]
Perry Romanowski
And that came from sharks originally.
- [30:07]
Valerie George
Well, you can get squalene from shark liver oil. You can also get it from olives. Or you can get farnesein from biotechnology, which is fueled by sugarcane. And so you have this farnese and then you can hydrogenate it into squalane pretty much. But basically, squalane is amazing material because it's naturally found in our skin. And it's a lipid that helps reduce water loss within skin and also helps keep skin soft and flexible. And historically. And you can actually still get it from. From shark liver oil. I'm actually really surprised Jedwards still sells it. I thought I was saying something to them, but yeah, but usually that's not where it comes from. Cosmetic formulator is usually using the olive form or they're using the sugar cane derived, as it's called form. But basically it's a hydrocarbon. So it's just Carbons and hydrogens, and they fully hydrogenate squalene, which you get from the shark liver oil or from olive oil. And I would say like since the 70s, synthetic squalane or olive oil derived squalene has been in production. You can also get squalene from other plant oils, but it's so tiny. But olives are the biggest source of it.
- [31:30]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah.
- [31:31]
Valerie George
And then of course, now we have.
- [31:32]
Perry Romanowski
Biotech and that makes sense. The industry has tried to get away from animal derived products well, since the early 1990s, really. I'm surprised lanolin is still out there. But lanolin doesn't hurt any animals. It's just extra stuff coming off of sheep's wool. But otherwise most proteins and stuff that used to be animal derived, we just don't use them anymore.
- [31:54]
Valerie George
No. And what's nice about squalane from olives or from biosynthesis using sugarcane as the sugar source is that you can get, you know, pretty pure material, you know, anywhere from 92 to 94% for the olive and sugar cane derived. The rest would just be other minor constituents like different isomers or waxes or lipids. But again, it's really great because it has a natural synergy with your skin.
- [32:23]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Valerie George
And is a really beautiful, lightweight emollient. I actually resell sugar cane derived squalene on my website, simply ingredients. But some people like to just put it on their skin. Some people like to put it in lotions, some people like to make their own serums with it. It's, it's a really great feeling material.
- [32:41]
Perry Romanowski
And your skin loves it. I mean, you, it's really. You love it. You, you like the way that it feels. It's probably doesn't have as good a transepidermal water loss barrier as something like.
- [32:54]
Valerie George
Petrolatum, but it's way lighter, more slippery, more volatile. Just a different tactile experience.
- [33:01]
Perry Romanowski
Exactly. So really that's why your skin kind of loves it. Now, whether it's the squalane in the products that you're talking about or it's the way the products that you're talking about were formulated, I mean, it's, it's difficult to say one ingredient is gonna have an impact on every formula that you use, but it definitely is an ingredient that is useful. And people like.
- [33:27]
Valerie George
I'd like to address the Thrive cosmetics recommendation. So Thrive is an interesting company because they're more than just selling a cosmetic product. They have a lot of philanthropic endeavors. And I'm huge into, you know, philanthropic giving and whatnot. Now I think this is funny that this specific tubing mascara is brought up, because a few years ago, a lot of people were asking me, hey, you know, should I spend. I think it was $30 at the time. Now that Thrive sells it for 26. But they said, this is kind of a pricey mascara. Should I buy it? Or is there something at the drugstore I can get? So I looked at the ingredient list, I looked at the claims that it was making, and there were so many similar mascaras on the market from the drugstore that I would be like, oh, you can just go use this one by this other company. It's half the price. And I actually do a presentation. I actually just did the presentation at Kent State University for the chemistry department, where I talk about a career as a cosmetic chemist. And I tell you that one of the skills that you gain by being a cosmetic chemist is being able to do that. And I specifically use the Thrive cosmetics here as an example. Now, maybe I judged a book by its cover, right? And so, Karen, I will go try the Thrive cosmetics mascara. But caveat. I am somebody who actually likes Second Day residue from mascara. Because what I do is I take a Q tip and I just. Or, you know, a little tissue and I just wipe right under my lower eyelid and it creates eyeliner. Second Day eyeliner. Smokey Eye, I like to call it.
- [35:01]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, there you go. See, that's a. Those are little beauty hacks you wouldn't get if the show was just me. That would never have occurred to me.
- [35:11]
Valerie George
Anyway, I'm gonna go pick it up right after the show. And you know what? Maybe I also will love it, but I don't have a basis for comparison. So actually, on our Instagram, I said, hey, do you guys have tubing mascaras you can recommend? Someone's looking for them. And I'll pick up a couple other of the tubing mascara recommendations and I'll rank them.
- [35:30]
Perry Romanowski
All right, we'll look forward to that in a future episode. Can you believe it? Our super fan Timothy's back.
- [35:39]
Valerie George
Whoa. Hey, Timothy. Super fan and patron.
- [35:42]
Perry Romanowski
To be fair, yeah, he never left. He's always been a patron, so. But he's got a. He's back with a question.
- [35:47]
Timothy
Hi, beauty brains. It's Timothy. Did you miss me? You know, a few episodes back, I did hear that my title of superfan was at risk. First of all, how dare you? And second of all, I gotta leave space for other people to ask questions. I can't be hogging up all your time. You know what I mean? I Gotta be.
- [36:08]
Valerie George
It's.
- [36:08]
Timothy
It's out of respect, not out of not being a super fan. Anyways, my question for you today is about menthol, or specifically about, like, those Icy Hot products, because, you know, as I'm getting older, I. I love to put a little icy Hot cream at the back of my neck. But one thing I've noticed is that I can never really feel it on my hands. And I'm sure it has something to do with the receptors in our hands versus in our neck or whatever, but I would just love to know why. I'd love to know why, like, the effects of the menthol.
- [36:40]
Valerie George
I think it's.
- [36:40]
Timothy
The menthol are not felt as strongly at certain parts of the body. Thank you for all that. You do love your podcast. Super fan, Timothy.
- [36:51]
Perry Romanowski
Wow. Thank you, Timothy. Great to have you back and asking questions.
- [36:56]
Valerie George
Oh, love to hear his voice. This is an interesting question because I worked at a brand that had a lot of products that evoked a sensorial experience on the scalp, we'll say, with tingly effects and all that kind of thing.
- [37:09]
Perry Romanowski
Wait, that was one of my favorite things about those hair products, because that's like one of their main things. It's tingling, man. It's tingling.
- [37:19]
Valerie George
Exactly. And what's interesting is some people are more receptive to tingling than others. And so some people would say, I don't feel any tingling at all. And then other people are screaming at the shampoo bowl like their scalp is being burned off.
- [37:33]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [37:34]
Valerie George
And, you know, for me, I also, I actually really feel menthol and menthol lactate type products on my hands. I really feel them, but I don't necessarily feel them on my scalp or other areas. And so I think it's two things. One, from person to person, you have this variability of sensitivity. And then I think within your own body, for a few reasons that we'll see, you have varying sensitivity depending on the part. And it's not necessarily my knees to Timothy's knees or my hands to Timothy's hands. I think even in our own bodies, we have so much variation.
- [38:11]
Perry Romanowski
It is. Well, let's step back and say, you know, what is going on here? So your ability to feel this menthol cooling effect. And the other ingredient in Icy Hot is methyl salicylate, I believe. So it's both of these. They call them counter irritants, really. And so they can stimulate your body's irritant system and then sort of shoots out the counter effects to that. Anyway, so, you know, the warming Effects are different in different areas due to the distribution and sensitivity of these thermoreceptors that are in your skin, specifically the TRPM8 and the TRPV1 receptors. And so let's look at why you can't feel it everywhere. Equally, the TRPM8 receptors respond to cold sensations which that's activated by the menthol. They're densely packed more in areas like the lips and the face. They are just a lot sparser in the hands and the knees and where you have thick skinned areas. The TRPV1 receptors, which respond to the heat, like the capsaicin or the methyl salicylate, they can also be mildly affected by menthol causing this icy hot effect. So that's, that's kind of what's going on. And so it's really mostly within your body. It's the different density of these receptors into these different areas. Also, the skin thickness can have an effect on the nerve endings.
- [39:46]
Valerie George
Yeah. Certain parts of your body, like the hands, which have really some of the thickest skin on the body as well as your feet and your kneecaps have a lot more skin and a lot more keratinized layers which are dead packed layers of skin which reduce sensitivity to menthol because the, the nerve endings are a little bit below that. So it's a little harder for these ingredients to get to. Whereas areas with thin skin, like as Perry mentioned, your lips, your face, especially the front of your neck, or even like your arms or inner wrists, those have way more exposed nerve endings, making them more sensitive. The other thing that can happen over time is adaptation to exposure or I guess it would be called desensitization.
- [40:33]
Perry Romanowski
Sure, sure, yeah. You just don't feel as much. And as far as your question goes, that's probably not an impact. But your hands are just in general, your hand, the palms of your hands feels a lot more stuff than the rest of the parts of your body. So they can guess, kind of get used, just get numb to feeling anything, you know, over time. So you're just, they're just not as sensitive.
- [40:59]
Valerie George
Yeah. Another interesting thought, Perry, when we're thinking about these different areas, you know, like lips versus face versus hands, is that these areas of skin have different moisture contents or different sebaceous gland activities. So for example, like the face has a lot more sebaceous glands than let's say the palms of your hands. And so they're able to absorb menthol or methyl salicylate, which are oily type compounds.
- [41:27]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:27]
Valerie George
I would think that they're able to absorb them more effectively, so you get a stronger effect in some of these areas. Whereas, like your kneecaps. Have we ever had a person with a problem with oily kneecaps on the show?
- [41:39]
Perry Romanowski
Nobody has asked about that. Probably not as big a problem.
- [41:43]
Valerie George
Oh, man. Well, that's a great question. Yeah.
- [41:46]
Perry Romanowski
Look at that. We have time for one more, and this one comes from us, from a patron. Sammy says hello. Is there an actual difference between body lotion or cleanser and face lotion? And are there any ingredients in body lotions and cleansers that wouldn't be good for the face?
- [42:04]
Valerie George
Hmm. Well, from the. The grand scheme of things, when we think about what makes a lotion a lotion or a cleanser, a cleanser, whether it's for your body or face, those principles are the exact same. You're going to build a cleanser in the same way. You're going to have water as the main solvent.
- [42:23]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah.
- [42:24]
Valerie George
You'll have some detergents, maybe you'll thicken the water phase. You'll add your surfactants, which are your detergents, and you'll add a preservative fragrance, and then you'll add other stuff that just makes it feel good. Now, I guess, like, the difference between a body cleanser and a facial cleanser would then be like, well, how cleansing do you need? Right. Like, I think on your face you would want something a little more gentle because your body, you want, like a lot of bubbles. You want to get like the oil off the back and the chest.
- [42:50]
Perry Romanowski
Right.
- [42:51]
Valerie George
What not. So I think from a formulation perspective, no difference in the composition, but maybe differences in the concentrations or maybe the level of detergency.
- [43:02]
Perry Romanowski
Yeah. But also based on marketing decisions, generally, like, the facial cleansers are going to have lighter, more gentle surfactants, whereas body washes could have surfactants, for example. So there could be a difference in which surfactants you choose for the products. Having said all that, you could make a perfectly fine facial cleanser that uses all the same ingredients as a body. Body wash, too. It's really. But from a marketing standpoint, you like to set. Segment them out a bit differently just so people feel like they're getting something different.
- [43:42]
Valerie George
Yeah. And I think body cleansers also have, like, tend to have a higher viscosity, so it takes longer for the gel to break down as you're moving a body loofah all over you.
- [43:51]
Perry Romanowski
Sure.
- [43:51]
Valerie George
I actually have. I have a lot of products. Okay. That have been gifted to Me from the Allure Booty Awards when Perry and I were judges for that. And Mr. Cosmetic Chemist has put down an ultimatum or as I call it, a memorandum of understanding in the home. And essentially he is on the verge of throwing everything away.
- [44:11]
Perry Romanowski
Come on.
- [44:12]
Valerie George
And I know and we've given away what we can, but I actually have just like a bunch of cleansers and you only use like a pea size amount of cleanser for your face. You don't really use a lot. But I have a bunch of facial cleansers that were gifted. So I'm actually using them as body washes. Not a fan. You don't just don't get like the suds. I mean, I think it's doing the same cleaning. You just don't get like that. I like a lot of foam with a body cleanser. I like the loofah to just be coated in it. So I'm still getting clean. But you know, I would say yeah, just the experience is different, but from a, a factoid point of view they're, they're pretty similar. Now lotions I think are a little bit different. Again, the chemistry is the same, but on a face lotion I think you tend to use more elegant emulsifiers. You have a lot more expensive ingredients that you would choose that change the sensory aspect. Whereas a body lotion is going over a huge area of your body. And so you just kind of have to be economic in, in the equation. And that doesn't make it a bad product. I just think that you lose some of the more elegant features. Also, you don't want your face lotion to be like super tacky or heavy. Maybe you do, I don't know. But if we're just thinking lotions like the body lotion I think is just kind of more like your stock standard lotion type. It's not going to melt into skin or transform. You definitely can't put ingredients in a face lotion necessarily all over your body anyway. Like retinols and stuff. I think they're segregated for mostly sensory, but also some of those reasons.
- [45:45]
Perry Romanowski
Having said all that, you can take all the same ingredients that you make a body lotion with and make a suitable facial lotion. It's just not going to be as elegant for most people. Most people want there to feel a difference. They want their face lotion to feel lighter than their skin lotion. But from a chemistry standpoint, you know, there isn't, there doesn't have to be a huge difference.
- [46:11]
Valerie George
And I think in body lotions now you've been mentioning petrolatum and stuff. I think you have more occlusives in body lotions.
- [46:18]
Perry Romanowski
You do? Yeah.
- [46:19]
Valerie George
Than facial lotions. And so I don't know if I would put a body lotion on my face.
- [46:23]
Perry Romanowski
Well, it's just one of those psychological things, for sure.
- [46:26]
Valerie George
You could, you know.
- [46:27]
Perry Romanowski
But, you know, I. I personally know that, like, a body wash is pretty much the same as a shampoo from a formulating standpoint, but it still does feel weird to me to take a body wash and wash my hair with it, even though I know, you know.
- [46:49]
Valerie George
Well, yes, but I think in more modern shampoos, I think you get more conditioning agents in them.
- [46:55]
Perry Romanowski
Absolutely true. I'm just saying with the experience that I had, because VO5, we came out with a body wash back in the late 1990s, and you know how we.
- [47:03]
Valerie George
And it was your shampoo.
- [47:04]
Perry Romanowski
We just took the shampoo, put it in a different bottle, labeled it differently, put a little higher level of a polyquat in there, so it was a little more gentle, but it was otherwise the same product. Even so taking a bottle of that and just putting it into my hair just felt weird because it came out of a bottle that said body wash. So there's a certain psychological impact that packaging and product naming has on the way you perceive that a formula functions.
- [47:32]
Valerie George
I'm happy that you were impacted by product marketing. Usually I would think you're unfazed, but I'm glad you were victim to it.
- [47:41]
Perry Romanowski
No, I. I'm emotionally always impacted by it and I'm intellectually aghast that I am speaking of having emotions.
- [47:53]
Valerie George
Oh, gosh, I think I hear whipped cream dreams in the background. Thanks for listening, everyone.
- [47:58]
Perry Romanowski
Hey, if you get a chance, can you go over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review that's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answers. Incidentally, Valerie, did you see that we, the beauty brands were listed in the New York Times as.
- [48:13]
Valerie George
Oh my gosh, I can't believe we forgot the biggest piece of beauty science news. We are listed as the number. Well, they didn't put numbers by it, but we were the first listed. We are the top podcast.
- [48:25]
Perry Romanowski
Top five beauty.
- [48:27]
Valerie George
First listed in the top five beauty podcasts by the New York Times. And they actually didn't call me Randy, which tells me they're listening to the show.
- [48:35]
Perry Romanowski
They are speaking of the show. If you have questions and you want us to answer it on your on the show, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com there's also a form in the show notes that you can submit questions that way.
- [48:50]
Valerie George
The Beauty Brains are also on Patreon. If you notice, this podcast is ad free and we hope you guys enjoy that because we enjoy helps us keep the show unbiased and allows us to say almost whatever we want. However, there are some basic expenses with running a podcast and that's what we use our Patreon Fund for covering. So if you are feeling generous, we do prioritize questions asked by Patreons. Every patron gets a transcript of the show and so if you are able to and compelled to do so, we appreciate any support you can offer by heading to patreon.com forward/the beauty brains yeah.
- [49:26]
Perry Romanowski
And speaking of the Beauty Brains, we're also on social media and Valerie's been tearing it up lately. You can follow us on Instagram. We're hebeauty brains 2018 on X and Blue Sky. We're at the Beauty Brains and we have a Facebook and a TikTok page.
- [49:44]
Valerie George
Well, thanks again for listening everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [49:49]
Perry Romanowski
Thanks everyone. Kittens.
- [50:15]
PK Clone
In the quiet of the morning light PK Clone finds her delight with whipped cream dreams so fluffy and white salmon skins her appetites fly Whipped cream dreams in shadows she gleams Solitary dance, or so it seems in the garden of night under moonbeam PK Colm lives her whipped cream dream.