Episode 391 - Beef tallow, humectants, smoke and more

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beauty Brains – Episode 391: Beef Tallow, Humectants, Smoke and More

Release Date: March 31, 2025

Hosts: Valerie George and Perry Romanowski

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Introduction

In Episode 391 of The Beauty Brains, hosts Valerie George and Perry Romanowski delve into a variety of intriguing topics related to cosmetic science. The episode addresses listener questions on unconventional skincare ingredients, the impact of environmental factors on beauty, and the intricacies of cosmetic formulations. Through their expert insights, Valerie and Perry provide a comprehensive understanding of these subjects, blending scientific knowledge with practical advice.

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AI-Generated Cosmetic Chemist Articles

Discussion Highlights:

Perry brings attention to a concerning trend of AI-generated articles falsely attributing statements to nonexistent cosmetic chemists. He shares his experience with misleading headlines like “The 68-year-old's spring skin routine that made sagging skin 43% firmer” (03:21).

Notable Quote:

Perry Romanowski [03:22]: "These are all AI generated stuff. They’ll quote somebody from like the Boston Skin Institute, you know, Dr. Alana Chen or somebody like that. It’s totally made up."

Valerie echoes Perry's concerns, emphasizing the importance of verifying the credibility of sources and the cosmetic experts quoted in such articles.

Key Insights:

• Critical Evaluation: Listeners are urged to critically assess the legitimacy of beauty claims, especially those propagated through dubious online sources.
• AI Ethics: The misuse of AI in generating misleading content poses significant challenges to consumer trust in beauty information.

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Recognition by The New York Times

Discussion Highlights:

Valerie shares exciting news that The New York Times featured The Beauty Brains as one of the top five podcasts for beauty science, positioning it above renowned shows like Fat Mascara (06:14).

Notable Quote:

Valerie George [06:14]: "We are the original ad-free beauty podcast out there."

Key Insights:

• Industry Acknowledgment: The recognition by a prestigious publication underscores the podcast’s authority and influence in the beauty science community.
• Ad-Free Model: Valerie and Perry highlight their commitment to unbiased content, differentiating their show from others laden with advertisements.

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Listener Questions

1. Beef Tallow and Skin Health

Question from Florida: "Does beef tallow do anything for your skin?" (10:09)

Discussion Highlights:

Valerie and Perry explore the resurgence of beef tallow in skincare, noting its historical use in the cosmetics industry and its current popularity driven by indie and homemade beauty communities.

Notable Quotes:

Valerie George [10:10]: "Beef tallow is like the original upcycling."

Perry Romanowski [12:39]: "It's mostly water, but VO5 probably has higher water content to hit the price point."

Key Insights:

• Historical Use: Beef tallow was commonly used in soaps and moisturizers in the 70s and 80s due to its emollient properties.
• Modern Resurgence: The ingredient is gaining traction again, fueled by sustainable practices and consumer interest in natural products.
• Vegan Concerns: With the industry's shift towards veganism, Valerie questions the rationale of discarding animal by-products when they can be repurposed effectively.
• Formulation Considerations: While beef tallow can enhance skin softness, its incorporation into modern formulations may introduce free acids unless properly saponified.

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2. Effects of Secondhand Smoke on Skin and Hair

Question from Monica: "Is there anything I can do to help with the effects of secondhand smoke on skin and hair?" (15:28)

Discussion Highlights:

Valerie and Perry delve into the detrimental effects of secondhand smoke, particularly from cigars, on skin and hair health. They discuss the chemical interactions and provide practical tips for mitigation.

Notable Quotes:

Perry Romanowski [16:01]: "Washing your hair should get rid of that odor, and it's not gonna cause too much damage."

Valerie George [17:21]: "The secondhand smoke interacts with the keratin protein... causing premature wrinkles, dull complexion, lack of collagen production, dryness..."

Key Insights:

• Chemical Impact: Secondhand smoke leads to oxidative stress and protein modification in the skin, resulting in premature aging and dehydration.
• Protective Measures: Using hair products with film-forming agents, such as certain hairsprays or silicone-based primers, can create a barrier that minimizes smoke absorption.
• Skin Care Strategies: Incorporating anti-pollution skincare products that form protective films can help prevent the adverse effects of smoke on the skin.

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3. Humectants in Skincare Formulations

Question from Deb (Patreon): "What should you consider when picking humectants? What do you think about snow mushroom?" (20:28)

Discussion Highlights:

The hosts analyze various humectants, comparing traditional options like hyaluronic acid and glycerin with newer entrants such as snow mushroom. They discuss efficacy, tactile experience, and formulation strategies.

Notable Quotes:

Perry Romanowski [21:09]: "Consumers should care about what does it do for me? It’s describing a feature, not the benefit."

Valerie George [24:25]: "Glycerin is cheap and works, but it doesn’t sell a lot of products, as everybody needs glycerin."

Key Insights:

• Hyaluronic Acid: While effective, it may not live up to its hyperbolic marketing claims but still offers a pleasant sensory experience in formulations.
• Glycerin: Valued for its affordability and efficacy, glycerin remains a staple humectant despite its ubiquity.
• Snow Mushroom: Although touted for its impressive water-holding capacity, its practical benefits within formulations may not surpass established humectants.
• Formulation Balance: Combining multiple humectants can enhance moisturizing effects while mitigating unfavorable tactile properties like stickiness or sliminess.

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4. Conditioner Viscosity and Bottle Design

Question from Sydney: "Why is Alberto VO5 conditioner so much thinner compared to Pantene?" (27:23)

Discussion Highlights:

Valerie and Perry compare the formulations and packaging of budget-friendly conditioners like VO5 with higher-end brands like Pantene, exploring reasons behind differences in viscosity and bottle design.

Notable Quotes:

Valerie George [28:10]: "It's much thinner because it's cheap and there's barely anything in it. It's mostly water."

Perry Romanowski [29:24]: "The formula probably costs 50 cents for what's in their bottle."

Key Insights:

• Formulation Differences: Budget conditioners often have higher water content and fewer active ingredients, resulting in a thinner consistency.
• Cost Factors: Lower production costs are achieved by minimizing expensive components like panthenol and using simpler conditioning agents.
• Bottle Design: Thinner products are easier to dispense fully from standard packaging, unlike richer formulas that may require specialized dispensing mechanisms.
• Consumer Experience: Salon-grade conditioners may offer enhanced feel and performance during both wet and dry stages of hair care, justifying their higher price point.

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5. Chemistry of Emulsions in Hair Care Products

Question from Jessica: "What does it mean for a fatty acid to swell, and how does driving the particle size down from homogenization help?" (34:00)

Discussion Highlights:

Valerie and Perry delve into the chemistry behind oil and water emulsions in hair care formulations, explaining the role of fatty alcohols and the impact of particle size on product stability and efficacy.

Notable Quotes:

Valerie George [35:16]: "Homogenizing doesn’t actually destroy the fatty alcohol; it just changes the size of the oil droplets and how they interact."

Perry Romanowski [37:28]: "The fatty alcohol tail gets associated with those oil particles... smaller in size, the emulsion lasts longer."

Key Insights:

• Fatty Alcohol Swelling: Refers to the process of melting and breaking down the crystalline structure of fatty alcohols to integrate them effectively into the emulsion.
• Homogenization Role: Reducing particle size enhances the stability and uniformity of the emulsion, preventing phase separation and improving product texture.
• Molecular Interaction: Properly swollen and emulsified fatty alcohols ensure effective coating of hair fibers, contributing to conditioning and manageability.
• Formulation Techniques: Achieving optimal particle size and fatty alcohol integration requires precise temperature control and processing methods during formulation.

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Conclusion

Episode 391 of The Beauty Brains offers a deep dive into the nuanced world of cosmetic science, addressing both timeless ingredients like beef tallow and contemporary challenges such as AI misinformation. Valerie George and Perry Romanowski adeptly navigate listener queries, providing valuable insights that blend scientific rigor with practical application. Their discussions underscore the importance of informed consumer choices and the ever-evolving landscape of beauty formulations.

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Further Engagement:

Listeners are encouraged to submit their beauty questions for future episodes and engage with The Beauty Brains community through various social media platforms and Patreon for additional content and support.

Transcript

[Valerie George]

Hi, I'm Valerie, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider look at the cosmetics industry. This is episode 391. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

Hello, Valerie. Good to see you. As always.

[Valerie George]

Great to see you. We have a lot of great questions today on today's show, including, does beef tallow do anything for your skin? Can you address the effects of secondhand smoke on skin and hair? What should you consider when picking humectants? Why are cheap conditioners so thin? And what does it mean for a fatty acid to swell? But first, our famous inane chitchat.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, Valerie, it's been a little while since I've seen you. What do you got going? Anything fun going on?

[Valerie George]

Well, some people would say, oh, I fell off the planet, but I actually fell off a ladder. That's what happened.

[Perry Romanowski]

What?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. I did? Yep.

[Perry Romanowski]

What happened? You were painting or something.

[Valerie George]

You know, I was. Everyone says, well, what were you doing on a ladder? And it was, like, obviously climbing to reach something.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure, sure.

[Valerie George]

Well, but anyway, so, yeah, it wasn't crazy high, you know, it was like a handful of feet off the ground high enough, and. And I fell on cement and it hurt. I thought I broke my leg, but I didn't, thank goodness.

[Perry Romanowski]

Wow. Wow.

[Valerie George]

And had some really ugly bruises, but I'm doing okay now.

[Perry Romanowski]

You should hire people to get on lighters for you.

[Valerie George]

Well, Mr. Cosmetic Chemist told me not to use this specific one, and I was like, whatever. I use it all the time when he's not around.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh.

[Valerie George]

And of course he was there when it happened. It's like, why didn't it have to happen when he was, like, turned around or something? I don't know.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I don't know. Well, I'm glad you're okay. And it hasn't disrupted things too much.

[Valerie George]

No, everything's good.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know what I've got going on?

[Valerie George]

What?

[Perry Romanowski]

I'm heading out to China.

[Valerie George]

Wow, you're going back? What for?

[Perry Romanowski]

I'm speaking at a conference out there about the future of cosmetic formulating. So spend a lot of time putting together my presentation. You know, it takes a long time to put together presentations even though you're only talking, like, 30 minutes. Maybe I spent too much time on it. I don't know.

[Valerie George]

Well, no, it does take a lot of work to prepare for these things because you wanna make sure you articulate all your points, your Slides have what they need, don't have what they don't need. Yeah, I think it's really hard, probably.

[Perry Romanowski]

For a 30 minute talk. Probably takes me, I don't know, 20 hours, which is okay.

[Valerie George]

That's kind of a long time.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I guess I'm too nitpicky. Well, I'm looking forward to going to China. I just hope I can get back in the country. I don't want to come back.

[Valerie George]

Well, I'd like for you to come back as well so we can keep up on our episodes of the show.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, speaking of episodes, why don't we head to Beauty News? Valerie, I don't know if this has happened to you, but I have a Google alert whenever the word cosmetic chemist is published on the Internet.

[Valerie George]

Okay.

[Perry Romanowski]

And so I get these daily alerts and it says, it says the article and the link to that. And so I've been getting a ton of links with all of these new cosmetic chemists that I've never heard of before. And these articles too are kind of weird. Like, here's an article, the title was the 68 year old's spring skin routine that made sagging skin 43% firmer. Right. I mean, who's going to notice 43%? Like, why, why would.

[Valerie George]

Oh my gosh, did they get that out of a journal or something?

[Perry Romanowski]

Right? No. And then they had. The next one was this 47 year old's skin became 42% firmer. And so I go and I look at this and this is a thing called journey-mondele.com and I'm reading through these articles and I figured out what is going on here. These are all AI generated stuff.

[Valerie George]

It has to be. I mean, it sounds like total clickbait. Now I want to know who are the cosmetic chemists they're quoting in the articles?

[Perry Romanowski]

Totally made up.

[Valerie George]

Oh my goodness, that should be illegal.

[Perry Romanowski]

It's all just fake. Like they'll quote somebody from like the Boston Skin institute, you know, Dr. Alana Chen or somebody like that. It's totally made up.

[Valerie George]

I think that should be illegal. This is why I don't like AI. I mean, I like it for memes, but I don't like it for any other reason.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, it was very, very troubling. So, you know, we start reading these news articles and now you don't even know are they even real?

[Valerie George]

Well, that just goes to show, you have to use critical thinking. Like, who is Journey Mondial? Why are they posting these articles with these really bizarre headlines that sound like clickbait and let's say is a legitimate publication. Who is the cosmetic chemist they're quoting? Because a lot of times you and I get found through social media.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

And look at how many cosmetic chemists are on social media. And they don't actually have the credentials to really be speaking on some topics.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, but at least they are actual people. These are just quoting fake people. And I, you know, I think it's. It's only going to get worse, really. It's some trouble in.

[Valerie George]

Oh, gosh. Well, that's. That's really disappointing. I didn't see a whole lot of news this week, but I did want to bring up, at the end of the last episode, we did talk about some news that we totally forgot about. I can't believe we did. But the New York Times. I don't know if. I don't know if any of our listeners actually stuck it out through the end of the last episode 391. But we kind of announced that the New York Times wrote about us. I think that's beauty science news. And they said basically we're one of like the top five podcasts to listen to for beauty science. And we were the first one they listed above, Fat Mascara. So I would like to think we were at the top of their mind.

[Perry Romanowski]

It was. It was fun. Yeah. I used to listen to fat mascara a lot more frequently, but too many ads. The ads just kill me. I mean, I can't. I can't do it. And also they. I think they have gone through a transition where they're trying to get more people involved because the two people who were the main people kind of are doing other things, I think, but interesting.

[Valerie George]

Well, we are still the OG Original ad free beauty podcast out there.

[Perry Romanowski]

Valerie, we had some listener feedback. You had mentioned melasma last time.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, we talked about different therapies for melasma. I mentioned going and getting laser. Um, one listener from San Marcos, California wrote that instead of laser, which can potentially trigger melasma if used too aggressively, they would recommend oral tranexamic acid by prescription because it's excellent and cheap for melasma. This is true. You can get tranexamic acid orally. This is actually the most effective way to use tranexamic acid by prescription through your dermatologist. You could even go to like an online dermot and get it as well. So, yeah, great tip. Thanks for reminding us. And I also should say I would only go to somebody who's experienced with melasma and lasers. There's a couple people in LA that are really good. But yeah, you're right. You can make it worse if you don't know what you're doing. You have a really poor laser. You don't have the right laser. So you want to make sure you go to someone who explicitly has experience in treating melasma.

[Perry Romanowski]

So you're saying it's a skill then?

[Valerie George]

I think it's skill, knowledge, experience, equipment. Yeah, yeah, but the oral, I mean, you just, you just pop a pill. So you talk to your doctor if it's right for you.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right now it's the, the laser stuff that's done by dermatologists or estheticians can do that or I would.

[Valerie George]

Well, I don't think an esthetician can do it. I think you can go to a medispa, you know, like one of those little retail things that's under the supervision of a doctor and a nurse is doing it. But I, if you actually a real melasma problem, I wouldn't do that. Those lasers are not. I just don't think they're adequate. And the people that experience. I would actually go to a dermatologist that advertises we have experience with high pigmented skin, melasma skin and have like the actual doctor do it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. And, and would you, would you recommend finding your doctor on like tick tock or something?

[Valerie George]

Oh my gosh, no, I don't have melasma, but I do have like other skin conditions like rosacea, where I required treatment with a laser. But I actually found through. And maybe not everyone is up for this, but I actually found through one another podcast and two, hitting the medical, you know, talk circuit. Not physically, but seeing who's out there speaking about it. But I actually found Metropolis Dermatology, Dr. James Wang is a laser fanatic and he really knows a lot about the different laser types and knows what to do and what not to do for that skin type. So he's in la. I think they actually have practices all over Southern California. But I would recommend, you know, kind of doing the same thing, just going out there and seeing just who has that experience.

[Perry Romanowski]

And I think he's also dog approved.

[Valerie George]

Frank is being so bad. It's like, frank, shut your pie hole.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, he just wants to talk to his mommy. Well, speaking of that, how about we.

[Valerie George]

We talk to our listeners with some beauty questions. Our first question comes to us from Florida. Good morning. My question, does beef tallow do anything for skin?

[Perry Romanowski]

Beef tallow, wow.

[Valerie George]

You know, Perry, I predicted a couple years ago that beef tallow would be booming on the Market. And here it is. Yes, because I started getting a lot of questions online pertaining to how to formulate with beef tallow a couple years ago. And also I would go into these, like little tiny farmers markets and boutiques and see a lot of people who were getting interested again, formulating with it. And it was popular some time ago as well, but now it's back and I think it's back with a vengeance. Because now TikTok is out.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, well, I don't. Is there a lot of beef tallow TikTok influencers?

[Valerie George]

Well, I mean, I just think there's a lot of chat about it, especially in like the indie and homemade beauty communities.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure. Well, you know, beef tallow was a more popular ingredient in the industry back, I don't know, in the 70s, maybe the 80s. And a lot of soap was actually just made using beef tallow because beef tallow is a fat. Essentially. It's the fat that's leftover from slaughterhouse. So those fats can be used to create soaps. And those fats also have the same kind of impact on your skin that fats will do. They are going to have emolliency. They're going to add to softness of the skin and you know, they'll be. It could be an important part of a skin moisturizer. However, now back in about the 1990s, the industry really moved away from using animal derived ingredients.

[Valerie George]

Maybe it's something called mad cow disease. I think for a while we had to pump the brakes on it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. There was mad cow disease. And I guess mad cow's disease is still. I mean, it was probably an overreaction, but there's also, you know, there's a movement in the industry to be like vegan cosmetics or vegan beauty products. And so that didn't sort of coincide with that. So a lot of companies just made the decision that they would get away from all animal products. Although that's hard to do because lanolin is such a good ingredient. And that's just the oil that comes from sheep's wool. No, sheep are injured when getting lanolin. But, you know, some people don't like any animal derived ingredients.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, beeswax is the same. Now cosmetic chemists, like, you know, ordinarily, like, you know, I worked at a big brand. We weren't actually adding beef tallow to products. Animals aren't being killed for this. It literally is the original upcycling.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

I've said that at a couple conferences over the last, I think three years ago. I said it At a conference and the audience got really uncomfortable. And I'm like, you have, you know, no problem using all these upcycled plant materials, but at the end of the day, you're willing to throw away all this tallow just because you want your product to be vegan. Like, or you're willing to eat a steak but not use the rest. The cow. And people, people didn't like that. So essentially, as Perry mentioned, this tallow is kind of leftover see stuff and it gets chemically modified into surfactants, into conditioning agents. And because of the demand for vegan products, consumers in personal care are asking for that less and less. And so now you have to go to plant derived materials, which are wildly inconsistent based on geography and weather. And then you also are moving to synthetic materials. So I don't know, I just say, who cares where it come from? Now, would I intentionally add beef tallow to a product? I would say no, because. Because you run the opportunity, I think, for maybe having too many free acids. Usually the tallow gets saponified or chemically reacted out, so it's not even really present anymore. It's kind of like a feedstock. So I don't know. For me, it's a pass especially too, like, where are these people getting all the beef tallow from?

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. That is a question too. You know, I remember my mom used to cook bacon and she'd always collect the bacon grease in a jar.

[Valerie George]

I've read that some people do take that grease and try to filter it and clean it and repurpose it for skincare.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't know what my mom did with it. I, I think it was. She probably just put it out in the garden or something because I think there was something where they say you shouldn't put grease down the drain.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, my mom, I think, would just throw it away. But I, I actually didn't really eat bacon when I was younger. And I discovered it though, and the grocery stores had such a shortage. And so I went to this like little local market and they had all of this like local thick cut, ranch style bacon. And I was like, you know, I've never bought or cooked bacon or really ate bacon before. I said, let me give it a try. Next thing you know, I'm working my whole way through the bacon portfolio and would I use it in my skincare? No.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right? No. Food is food. You know, there's just one other thing about beef tallow. I remember I had a, I had a dog who would like Eat soap bars.

[Valerie George]

Interesting.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, because if the saponification reaction hasn't happened far enough, there's going to be enough beef tallow that the dogs can smell it and.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my gosh, the old days.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, the old days.

[Valerie George]

Well, let's head to our next question by Monica.

[Perry Romanowski]

Monica says hi, Valerie and Perry. I've been listening to your podcast for the past year, and I love it. And y'all, I decided to start from the first episode available on Spotify, and eventually get to the most recent. So I sent in a question, and here we are. My question is, is there anything I can do to help with the effects of secondhand smoke on skin and hair? I bartended at a cigar lounge, and I myself don't smoke, but I'm always looking for tips to prepare and recover from being surrounded by smoke and nicotine. Thank you so much, Monica.

[Valerie George]

Wow, Very cool. A cigar lounge.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, right by my house is a hookah lounge, which I've never been in, but I imagine you get the same kind of problem, right, that smoke can just get into your clothes and your hair.

[Valerie George]

I actually think hookah, smokeless tobacco. That's what they say.

[Perry Romanowski]

There's a lot of smoke, and so there's. There's smoke in the air. Like, it's not the same as a cigar.

[Valerie George]

It's different. Yeah, right. It's not like combustion smoke.

[Perry Romanowski]

No, definitely not. But it's in the air, and when.

[Valerie George]

You leave and you can taste it because they have all the flavored hookah.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you smell when you come out. So it's probably. It's the same type of problem. All right, so what can you do about this? Now? First, are you going to notice anything?

[Valerie George]

I actually think it's a different problem because the problem with secondhand smoke on skin, skin and hair is because they are results of combustion. And it's usually like benzene particulate or even just like pollution particulate. It's very similar. I don't think that is expelled with hookah.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, you're probably right. It's. Hookah's probably not as bad as cigar smoke. So let's go to the cigar smoke. What kind of tips we got here? First, I guess that you'll notice your hair can absorb that. So you're gonna notice the odor in your hair.

[Valerie George]

Exactly.

[Perry Romanowski]

Now, for addressing that. I mean, washing your hair should get rid of that odor, and it's not gonna cause too much damage.

[Valerie George]

No. I think the biggest thing you could do, though, if you didn't want the odor to Absorb to begin with is to use products that have a film formation and then the actual hair isn't absorbing the odor, but the film film is. And this is actually when we talk about pollution protection and cosmetic science, we look for ingredients that actually form a film on the skin or form a film on the hair. But then you kind of run into the same problem. You have to wash the film off your hair to get the smoke smell off your hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. Well, but it's better because the film will wash off your hair. So I, I imagine if you sprayed your hair, for example, with hairspray.

[Valerie George]

Mm.

[Perry Romanowski]

That way what gets absorbed, the stuff that gets absorbed will get absorbed into that hairspray film. And then when you wash your hair, that that all goes away and the secondhand smoke particles are gonna go away with it. So that would probably work better than if you didn't put anything on your hair and tried to wash your hair. There's some of it might get absorbed into the fiber itself. So I think that pre treating your hair like that would be a good strategy for combating this kind of thing.

[Valerie George]

What happens is the secondhand smoke interacts with your skin. It interacts with the keratin protein. Keratin. I don't know why I keep saying keratin carotene, keratin protein on your skin. And it causes oxidation of the different factors within the skin, carbonylation of the protein. And so basically it modifies the protein structure and function. And then you get premature wrinkles, dull complexion, you know, lack of collagen production, dryness, all that kind of stuff. And so again, the way to mitigate that is to use products specifically designed for anti pollution protection, which, you know, is not a often claim that you find in the US So, but essentially you want to form this film on your skin. And again, that comes from pre treatment of your skin with a product before you head into work.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, that sounded like a disgrace description of my first vehicle that I bought, carbonylation. You know, there's a silicone based skin protection product which is really good at protecting your skin from chemicals and such. I used to use it in the lab. Something like that would work, but I'm not sure you'd want to put that on every time you go to work.

[Valerie George]

Well, it could be like a silicone primer that's really common. So if you're wearing foundation or makeup, that actually should work because it's forming a barrier over the skin.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. All right, well, thanks, Monica. We look forward to the many more questions you have. To come.

[Valerie George]

Our next question comes to us from Deb, who is a patron on Patreon. Hi, beauty brains. I've just discovered your show. Love it. And have been binging non stop. I have a question about humectants. It seems that hyaluronic acid is not all it's cracked up to be. And glycerin is a superstar, even if it needs more support to avoid feeling stuck. Sticky.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

What about sodium lactate, propane, Dial panthenol? As formulators, what types of things would you consider when deciding between humectants and when designing a mixture of a few of them? Also, if you have time, I'd love to know what you think about snow mushroom. Lots of bold claims out there about its humectant power. Are they legit? Thanks so much.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, thanks so much, Deb. Very interested in humectants. You know, it's interesting to me how consumers nowadays kind of know more about ingredients than ever.

[Valerie George]

So I bet you're gonna say then cosmetic chemists. I was like the cosmetic chemist on the website we talked about in beauty science news, maybe.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. Well, it's just that these names are getting out there in the public zeitgeist. Right. And so I guess that must be social media, because before companies would only be able to communicate with you through magazines or television or radio, but now social media is there. And so people hear about, like, every single ingredient.

[Valerie George]

They do, they do. And, you know, it's a little confusing because typically they hear about the ingredients from different brands and the brands are going to say as many sensational things as they can about it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

For example, snow mushroom. I've heard it holds like a million times its weight in water or whatever. Right now. Is any of that true? I don't know.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I usually find that companies don't completely just make stuff up. So it probably is true that it took some degree. Right, right. But what does that really mean? That it holds a million times its weight in water? You know, that does ultimately, because what consumers should care about is what does it do for me? You know, that's. That's describing a feature of the thing and not really the benefit. And when it comes down to it, consumers should be looking for the benefits. And so does a snow mushroom with its million times more water holding give you better humectancy than glycerin? No, probably not.

[Valerie George]

Or does it even do that in the product? Because at the end of the day, like, yeah, that's great that snow mushroom. Does that. Does it do it in the final delivery system? So yeah. Let's talk about the three humectants that Deb mentioned. Sodium lactate, propanediol, panthenol.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, she did first mention hyaluronic acid, and she said it's not all it's cracked up to be. I mean, hyaluronic acid is not bad, but it doesn't. It's not as great as anti aging marketers will make it.

[Valerie George]

I think it's pretty good.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. But it is an ingredient that's part of your natural skin system, the natural moisturizing factor and stuff your body makes. Hyaluronic acid. I just think that the stuff that's in your lotions and creams and that's getting topically applied, for the most part, it's just sitting on top of your skin doing kind of the same thing as any other humectant.

[Valerie George]

Yes, I will say that, but I think it really works. And what I like about hyaluronic acid is it adds a tactile experience that's way more pleasant than glycerin. Sometimes it can be unpleasant if you get too big of a hyaluronic acid molecule, as Perry mentioned, it just really floats on top of the skin and you kind of have to like, push it around. And it almost has this like really weird, airless, slimy feel. It's kind of hard to describe, but if you get the right blend of molecular weights, it actually creates, I mean, to me, a really nice application experience. And it doesn't necessarily have the sticky dry down that glycerin or some of the glycols do, or even propane dial, which is one of the ones she's asking about.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And, you know, you can certainly formulate a product with hyaluronic acid and make it feel really nice and it's going to be effective. But is it the anti aging superstar that it's marketed to be? No, you know, that's fine.

[Valerie George]

Well, sodium lactate is a nice. I wouldn't. I mean, is it a humectant maybe? Yes, but I think it does a nice job of increasing the water content of skin. Yeah. You know, you would need to use a lot of it to really see the benefit. But I think that's also a really nice one. It's not one you necessarily notice a tactile experience with, like glycerin, like propane dial, which is a propylene glycol alternative.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

It's just something that you can put in a product and increase the water content of skin. Now, would a consumer notice that? You know, I Think it depends what else is in the formula, how dry their skin is, but yeah, that's a really great one. And then I'm a huge fan of panthenol, of course, for hair care, but it's also really great in skin.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And panthenol can also have that sticky issue, too.

[Valerie George]

It's like a weird squeaky sticky.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. If you. If you don't use it. Right. But all of these humectants that you mentioned, they're going to hold water, they're going to have that effect. Glycerin is looked at as the star, I think, primarily because it's been around the longest, but also it's cheap, the least expensive of these. Yeah, so. So it's cheap and it works, right?

[Valerie George]

Yeah, exactly. Well, as a formulator, when we put these things together, we mentioned it a little bit, but essentially you're looking for efficacy. Is it really providing an increase in water content to skin, delivering whatever moisture claim marketing is looking for? And the second piece is how does it impact the experience? Because the glycols, glycerins, the dials, they do transition into this really tacky feel and then it goes away. And consumers may not necessarily like that. So you have to supplement the product, or you should supplement the product with things that don't have a tactile impact, that increase water content, or maybe they negate a negative tactile attribute like glycerin would have. So it's really just a matter of choosing what the product experience should be for the customer and combining them in those aspects. But I don't know if all cosmetic chemists think about it that way, and they may just throw glycerin in there and walk away.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I think you're. Ultimately, you probably start with glycerin, and then if it's. It doesn't have the tactile feel that you want, then you could try to blend in some of these other ones. And you certainly want to put in something like a panthenol or hyaluronic acid, because then the marketing people have something to talk about. I mean, glycerin works great, but it doesn't sell a lot of products, as everybody needs glycerin.

[Valerie George]

I know. Well, people are trying to turn glycerin into something sexy right now. And I get it. You know, it's like back to the basics, glycerin.

[Perry Romanowski]

But I don't think that's an ownable marketing position. Everybody can just use glycerin then.

[Valerie George]

And everyone does use glycerin.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right? Yeah, because it works, but it's not s storied.

[Valerie George]

Well, what about our next question?

[Perry Romanowski]

Our next question comes to us from Sydney. Oh, look at that. One of my old products is mentioned. Sydney says, I've heard you guys talk about the difference between generic and salon grade products and have decided there is no point to spend four to five times for a product that has the same chemicals. Thus, I purchased Alberto VO5 conditioner for daily use. One thing I noticed is that Alberto VO5 conditioner seems much thinner and more easily completely empties from the bottle it comes from in compared to say a Pantene where you have to whack the bottle to get the last few drops out. Is this because the product is thinner, more dilute than any higher level products? Or is the bottle lined with something that helps get the product out there completely? Thank you. Well, V, have you ever used VO5 conditioner, Valerie?

[Valerie George]

I have. It reminds me of hotel conditioner and no one once has ever said, wow, this hotel conditioner is so amazing, I need to go buy it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh my, oh my. I.

[Valerie George]

No offense, fairy, but no, I use.

[Perry Romanowski]

It a lot, but I had short hair. So, you know.

[Valerie George]

Well, let's, let's give our our own opinions here. It's much thinner because it's cheap and there's barely anything in it. It's mostly water. I mean, all conditioners are mostly water anyway. But I would say there's probably a higher water content so the brand can hit the price point the consumer is looking for. Then let's say a salon professional product. Pantene Pro V probably has some different ingredients in there that'll allow it to be structured a little more, a little thicker and appear a little richer. You know, I've never measured the water content of Pantene, but you know, I don't know how much it compares to the VO5. But in my opinion it's thinner because it's, you know, got to be more economic.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, you know, I do have some experiences. I actually know the formula, although they probably change it since then. But you know how much this formula cost? Like the amount in one bottle? You know how much that costs for the formula?

[Valerie George]

5 cents?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, it cost 11 cents.

[Valerie George]

So that's pretty cheap. That's very cheap, especially compared to a salon brand.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I would say if you compared it to Pantene and they got economies of scale and such, their formula is probably going to cost 50 cents for what's in their bottle. That'd be my guess.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Panthenol is not inexpensive. I mean, granted, they probably do have a lot of buying power, as you said, but it's still. Sometimes the market plummets.

[Perry Romanowski]

But I mean, for them and Pantene, I think on a blinded basis, is the conditioner that probably scores the best among consumers.

[Valerie George]

It's great. I really like it.

[Perry Romanowski]

But they have the styrometyl propyl dimethylamine in there and such. And so they have a lot. And dimethicone, of course. And so they have a lot of.

[Valerie George]

Is VO5 just cetrimonium chloride?

[Perry Romanowski]

VO5 is a blend of sterileconium chloride and citromonium chloride.

[Valerie George]

I'm just not a fan of either of those.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right, well, but they are effective for wet combing and they're effective for detangling the hair. So when it comes to just like a simple conditioner, you know, it's a. It's cheap and effective. Now, the reason that it's effective in.

[Valerie George]

The wet stage, in the dry stage, I feel like there's a lot to love. So people, you have to. As a formulator, I always teach this about conditioners. You have to think about what's happening when the hair is wet and then what's happening when the hair is dry. And I would agree that VO5 is great when the hair is wet. There's a lot of wet, feel, wet conditioning stuff in there. And that's where hotel products fall short, is they don't think about the hair when it's dry. And if you have male leg hair for hair, like I do, the dry stage is a very important consideration.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure, sure. You know what those hotel bottles like, trying to get them out of those little bottles.

[Valerie George]

It's the worst.

[Perry Romanowski]

I know. Why don't they make the openings bigger? All right, but I digress here. As far as the VO5 being more dilute or thinner. It was thinner. You know, we used about. I think we used about 5%, a blend of cetyl alcohol and sterile alcohol to get the thickness. And, yeah, the viscosity is somewhere like around 2 or 3,000. So it's not. It's, you know, it's not very thick, sort of on purpose. It's just thickened up a little bit. Something like a Pantene is going to use about double that.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

As far as the fatty alcohols go. And that's why it's thicker also, that. That Sadma will also make it thicker.

[Valerie George]

I also think, you know, the fact that it's thin is nice because you do want to get out of the bottle. Now you could probably speak for this. I don't think the bottle is lined with anything.

[Perry Romanowski]

It is not.

[Valerie George]

No. That's not a common technology. And in fact, in the last 10 years there's been a lot of companies trying to work on lining a bottle with something. I think Ohio State maybe eight years ago announced a lot of research that they came up with a material that allows everything to get it out to the last drop. There's a company that collaborated with Colgate to create a toothpaste where every drop comes out of it. It comes in a little clear bottle. It's kind of neat, but that's not a common technology and it's actually very expensive and very specialized to do.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know, we used to, we had, we had our own blow molding, so we made our own bottles.

[Valerie George]

Really?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, we had a blow molding department and you know, there was always, we had these screw on caps and you know, it was kind of a pain. You had to screw on and screw off the cap every time. And where the whole industry had switched to flip tops or, or the turrets where you can push the button and it opens. And for years there was a project at VO5 to get rid of those screw, screw top bottles, caps. But every, every time somebody would come in with a new design that would work. The people who were selling us those bottle caps, because we didn't make the bottle caps, the people who are selling the bottle caps would reduce the price. And so our, ours was all price driven. And so it took us at least 15 years to switch out of those, those caps.

[Valerie George]

Isn't that crazy now? Do you think they still make their own stuff?

[Perry Romanowski]

I don't think they do, no. They sold all that stuff off and the brand has been bought out by a bunch of different companies.

[Valerie George]

So it's probably all outsourced.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah, now it is. But it was kind of cool. You walk through the factory, you watch the bottles being made. It's very cool.

[Valerie George]

That's incredible. And on such a huge scale. That's amazing.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. We would sell 50 million bottles a year.

[Valerie George]

Wow. Well, we have time for one more question. It comes to us from Jessica. Hi, beauty brains. I'm a fellow cosmetic chemist and I've been working in hair care for the last 10 years. When talking about face combination for an oil and water emulsion, it's common to say you need to swell the fatty alcohol. What does that mean from a chemistry perspective? And how does driving the particle size down from homogenization help that? If it's a 18 carbon chain length fatty Alcohol, like sterile alcohol, and you're homogenizing and driving the particle size down. Is it suggesting it's breaking down to a smaller chain length or just breaking up any agglomerates? Time at the Bench is important, but it's so hard to find technical information, and you're both able to articulate very nuanced things as well. So thank you for the time you put into this, and I've enjoyed every episode I listened to and take that knowledge back to the Bench with me. Even if you don't believe my company's products work the way they claim.

[Perry Romanowski]

Jessica, Products rarely work the way they claim. But that's not to say they don't work. You know, most products work, right?

[Valerie George]

They do something. Yeah, right.

[Perry Romanowski]

They do something.

[Valerie George]

Well, I've been in the hair care industry for a very long time, and I've never, ever once heard saying, you have to swell the fatty alcohol. Have you?

[Perry Romanowski]

I kind of know what she's talking.

[Valerie George]

About, but I've never heard it that way.

[Perry Romanowski]

Not a common thing. I mean, when you buy fatty alcohols, you buy them typically in a solid form, and a solid form is going to be made up of the fatty alcohol molecules, and so they're sort of enmeshed together. So the swelling of the fatty, fatty alcohol means that you want to break up those solids to down to the individual molecules.

[Valerie George]

And you typically do that by melting. They have a very low melt point. It's around 52 to 53 degrees Celsius, if I recall.

[Perry Romanowski]

And you pretty much 60 degrees Celsius for cetyl alcohol, and then about 64 degrees for sterile alcohol.

[Valerie George]

I think cetearyl is lower.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes, cetearyl alcohol probably has lower because it's a blend.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Sometimes when you have a blend, it's called a eutectic melting point, where the actual melting point is lowered from something being a blend. But anyway, eutectic.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yay.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Point being, you just have to put your. Either you could do it by melting your alcohols separately in an oil phase tank. You can put them, depending on your formulation, directly into the main phase, and it pretty much melts. And for this, you just need the right temperature and the right time. And by the right time, meaning you want to make sure that you've completely melted and destroyed the crystalline structure of these pellets that effectively have gone into the batch. But homogenizing, I actually very rarely homogenize hair care products because we've just never found a need to. Like, you might do a pass through a filter, maybe, but right Generally the particle size, if you have the right balance of your oil phase and emulsifiers, it's, it's pretty small. But homogenizing doesn't actually destroy the sterile alcohol. If you, if you did want to do that, it doesn't actually destroy the molecular structure, just changes the size of the oil droplets and the size of your water droplets and how they interact with each other. Then when the product cools, it can recrystallize and, and form its structure again, thanks to the fatty alcohol.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, the homogenization is just making the oil droplets smaller. And I guess the, the fatty alcohol, some of the, the, the oh fatty alcohol is an oh group. And so the oh group is going to be sort of associated with the water and then the fatty alcohol tail gets associated with those oil particles. And if you can shrink those particles down to smaller sizes, the oil and water emulsion is going to last longer.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my gosh. Perry. Well, do you hear the music?

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, I do hear the music. Does that mean we're at the end here?

[Valerie George]

It means your. Your flight is calling. Thanks for listening, everyone. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review that's gonna help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.

[Perry Romanowski]

And if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can use the form that's in the show notes in every episode. The Beauty Brains are also on Patreon. You might have noticed that we don't have any ads in here, and that's because, well, I get annoyed listening to ads, quite frankly. But I think it also allows us to give you an unbiased opinion. But the show does cost some money to make. And so if you like what we do and you want to support the show, go to patreon.com thebeautybrain and subscribe at any level. You also get a transcript of the show.

[Valerie George]

Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains on Blue sky, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page and a TikTok.

[Perry Romanowski]

Wow, we are, we are out there and you're doing a bang up job this year getting that stuff I got.

[Valerie George]

I got to get back into. Ever since I fell off the ladder, it's kind of like I fell off the wagon and now I need to get back on.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. Well, I hear we're really big with dogs.

[Valerie George]

Oh, gosh. Sorry about Frank and Butch. Well, anyway, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[Perry Romanowski]

Thanks, everyone.

[Valerie George]

Kittens.