Episode 397 - Heat protectants, protein and sunburns

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Beauty Brains – Episode 397: Heat Protectants, Protein, and Sunburns

Release Date: May 31, 2025

Hosts: Valerie George and Perry Romanowski

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Introduction

In Episode 397 of The Beauty Brains, Valerie George and Perry Romanowski delve into a variety of beauty science topics, addressing listener questions and discussing recent industry news. This episode covers the effectiveness of heat protectants, the validity of protein buildup claims, the handling of sunburned skin, and more. The hosts provide expert insights to help listeners make informed decisions about their beauty routines.

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News Highlights

1. Breakthrough in Hair Growth Proteins

Valerie and Perry discuss a recent study claiming the discovery of a "protector protein" capable of revitalizing hair follicles and promoting hair growth.

• Perry Romanowski expresses skepticism:

  "It just sounds incredible to me." [05:01]

• Valerie George elaborates on the complexity of hair loss and the challenges of translating animal research to human applications:

  "This is really a drug claim... we’re a long ways away from having anything meaningful come out of it." [06:03]

They conclude that while the research is promising, practical applications in cosmetics are unlikely in the near future due to regulatory and scientific hurdles.

2. Lawsuit Against Major Hair Dye Brands

The hosts examine a lawsuit filed in Los Angeles County targeting prominent hair dye manufacturers like L'Oréal, Wella, and Clairol. The plaintiffs allege that prolonged occupational exposure to these dyes contributed to bladder cancer.

• Valerie George challenges the lawsuit's validity:

  "These impurities are also really highly regulated... Why weren't they wearing gloves?" [08:26]

• Perry Romanowski adds:

  "You don't want to call me to be an expert witness, Perry." [09:32]

They emphasize that there is no evidence linking standard hair dye usage to cancer and suspect the lawsuit may be financially motivated.

3. Social Media's Influence on Cosmeceutical Trends

The episode addresses the resurgence of the term "cosmeceuticals" and its propagation through social media platforms like TikTok.

• Perry Romanowski notes the challenges of misinformation:

  "Anybody can say anything they want on these social media sources. And oftentimes it's just not true information." [12:23]

• Valerie George discusses the persistence of marketing terms:

  "The term cosmeceuticals is back. Didn't we stop using that 15 years ago?" [13:21]

They highlight the importance of relying on trusted sources amidst the flood of unverified beauty claims online.

4. Huda Beauty Setting Spray Controversy

Valerie and Perry dissect a case where Huda Beauty faced scrutiny for making unverified claims about their setting spray being the "strongest ever."

• Valerie George explains the investigation process:

  "If they had the proof, they would have fought it." [18:04]

• Perry Romanowski connects it to influencer marketing:

  "They did send free products. That's a sign of endorsement." [20:10]

The hosts underscore the implications of influencer partnerships and the necessity for brands to substantiate their product claims.

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Listener Questions

1. Re-Emulsifying Separated Products (Dasha) [23:16]

Question:
Dasha, a biochemistry and molecular biology student, inquires about a separated Avene Cicaflate Plus product, specifically the composition of its aqueous and solid layers, the benefits of using just the solid layer, and methods to re-emulsify the product.

Discussion:

• Perry Romanowski compares the separation to natural products like natural peanut butter, suggesting vigorous shaking or transferring to another container as potential solutions.

• Valerie George analyzes the product's composition, identifying ingredients like zinc oxide and various waxes that contribute to the separation. She recommends:

  "Cut open the top of the tube, stir it, and then transfer it to another container." [28:00]

• They advise contacting the manufacturer for a replacement and highlighting the importance of product integrity.

2. Treating Sunburn and Adjusting Skincare Routines (Louise) [28:38]

Question:
Louise from Ottawa seeks advice on treating sunburned skin, particularly concerning the stinging sensation from certain products and how long to postpone her regular skincare routine, which includes retinoids and vitamin C serums.

Discussion:

• Valerie George recommends using lightweight products to allow the skin to release heat, avoiding heavy creams that trap heat and exacerbate redness. She suggests:

  "Postpone moisturizers and switch to super lightweight serums until the redness and sensitivity subside." [32:37]

• The hosts agree that retinoids and exfoliating acids should be avoided during the healing process to prevent further irritation. They recommend:

  "Wait at least a week before resuming your regular skincare routine." [34:45]

3. Matching Conditioners with Shampoos (Laura) [35:05]

Question:
Laura asks about the necessity of using a matching conditioner with L'Oréal's El Vive Rapid Reviver Conditioner, which claims to be suitable for daily use without a leave-in time.

Discussion:

• Valerie George acknowledges the marketing appeal but emphasizes that:

  "Any conditioner generally doesn't require a long leave-in time. Most conditioners provide similar benefits regardless of pairing with a specific shampoo." [36:06]

• Perry Romanowski critiques the lack of exceptional ingredients supporting the "power conditioner" claim:

  "It's all marketing mumbo jumbo because most conditioners perform similarly." [37:17]

They conclude that while L'Oréal's conditioner is effective, the matching with specific shampoos is primarily a marketing strategy.

4. Effectiveness of Heat Protectants (Sophia) [39:33]

Question:
Sophia questions the quantifiable effectiveness of heat protectants, pondering whether a 10% reduction in damage justifies their use over time.

Discussion:

• Valerie George references a 2011 study demonstrating up to a 76% reduction in hair breakage when using specific polymers as heat protectants:

  "Even a 10% reduction in damage is beneficial because the damage accumulates over time." [45:29]

• Perry Romanowski explains the methodology of such studies, noting the bias towards positive results in published research:

  "If the product didn't work, you wouldn’t know about it." [42:22]

They affirm that consistent use of effective heat protectants can significantly mitigate cumulative hair damage from styling tools.

5. Hydrolyzed Protein Buildup on Hair (Melissa) [47:29]

Question:
Melissa, a moderator on a hair care science subreddit, inquires about the possibility of hydrolyzed proteins building up on hair, leading to heaviness and rigidity due to repeated applications.

Discussion:

• Valerie George acknowledges that excessive use of hydrolyzed proteins can lead to buildup, especially if products aren't alternated to give hair a break:

  "If every product you use contains a lot of protein and you’re not cleansing thoroughly, buildup is likely." [51:33]

• Perry Romanowski counters that while some buildup is possible, it’s typically not as noticeable as oil-based accumulations:

  "It’s hard to say, and you might not notice this buildup compared to sebum." [53:23]

They recommend balancing protein treatments with regular cleansing to prevent any negative effects on hair texture and manageability.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Valerie and Perry address critical aspects of hair care and skincare, providing evidence-based advice and debunking common myths. They emphasize the importance of understanding product ingredients, the limitations of marketing claims, and the necessity of balancing beauty routines to maintain optimal skin and hair health. Listeners gain valuable insights into the practical applications of beauty science, empowering them to make informed choices in their daily routines.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Even if it's like 10% less hair damage, I would say it's worth using one than not using one.” — Valerie George [45:29]

• “Anybody can say anything they want on these social media sources. And oftentimes it's just not true information.” — Perry Romanowski [12:23]

• “You don't have to be worried that your hair color is gonna give you cancer. There's no evidence of that.” — Valerie George [11:17]

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**Listeners are encouraged to visit The Beauty Brains Patreon for additional content and to support the show. For more questions and insights, follow The Beauty Brains on their social media platforms.

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Be Brainy About Your Beauty.

Transcript

[Valerie George]

Hi, I'm Valerie, and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 397. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Peri Romanowski. Hi, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

Hello, Valerie. Always great to see you.

[Valerie George]

Good to see you. On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions, lots of beauty science news, including, can you re emulsify a broken and separated product? How do you treat sunburned skin? Do you have to use the matching conditioner with the shampoo? How effective are heat protectants? And do regular hydrolyzed proteins build up on hair? But first, inane chitchat.

[Perry Romanowski]

Valerie, it's been a couple of weeks. How you been? I haven't seen you. What you been up to?

[Valerie George]

You know, very busy. Very busy with work. Trying to get some projects wrapped up before the summer. It'll be good to get some stuff across the finish line. We're doing some home construction. I found this Dr. Pepper bottle hidden behind some drywall. The house was built in 1983.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, wow. So it was like, you think they left it there on purpose so that the next person can find it?

[Valerie George]

A hundred percent. If I did drywall. I mean, you know, I've done drywall, but if I were a drywaller.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

You know, and by the way, we're not doing this ourselves. We have help. You know, I'm not really able to do a whole lot myself right now, but, you know, if I were a drywaller, I would definitely hide stuff.

[Perry Romanowski]

Did they have a little note in the bottle like you put a little note? No.

[Valerie George]

Wouldn't that have been cool, though?

[Perry Romanowski]

That would have been very, very thoughtful that they did. Hey, you know what I did since I've last talked to you?

[Valerie George]

What'd you do?

[Perry Romanowski]

I got an MRI on my leg.

[Valerie George]

Okay. Do you need surgery? A knee replacement? Like, what's happening?

[Perry Romanowski]

I don't know. These things are so slow. You know, you're like. You go to the doctor, they go, okay, you gotta go to an mri. And then you go to the mri. And then they're like, oh, we'll send it to your doctor. And then. So that's where I am. So. So I don't know.

[Valerie George]

Oh, do you have a PPO?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, probably.

[Valerie George]

I don't think so. My MRIs always got results back so fast. But maybe that was the UCLA network.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, it could have been. I don't know our health.

[Valerie George]

And also related to my brain. A knee seems like less important than a brain probably.

[Perry Romanowski]

I mean, I'm also not the best follow upper like they were said. Oh, it'll be ready in two business days. But then that was over the weekend. And then last week I was busy. So, you know, I just need a healthcare system where they follow up with me, not where I follow up with them. But I guess that doesn't exist, right?

[Valerie George]

No, you gotta be your own advocate, that's for sure. Oh, my goodness. Well, I hope everything's okay. I mean, obviously you're still joggling.

[Perry Romanowski]

I am, but the streak is in jeopardy, I think. But I haven't missed. But it really does hurt to run, so maybe I shouldn't be doing it.

[Valerie George]

But even with a knee brace, it hurts.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah, it actually doesn't hurt to run as much. It hurts more to walk than to run. So some weird thing.

[Valerie George]

Very interesting. We'll just keep running everywhere.

[Perry Romanowski]

That's what I've been doing. Running and sitting, like standing hurts.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my goodness. I know your pain.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know what else is coming up? The big New York Suppliers Day. I will be there. So all I want to say is if there's anybody out in the beauty room brains world. It was going to the New York Suppliers Day for the Society of Cosmetic Chemists. I will be there both days, so feel free to say hello.

[Valerie George]

I'm just bummed it's so late this year. I won't be able to go, unfortunately. Why does it got to be like a month later than usual?

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I think usual switch. I was told they switched it because primarily the Javits center had the dates already filled out and they wanted the, like, the bigger rooms, so.

[Valerie George]

Well, I heard, yeah, they wanted to expand their space. And Javits said, well, if you have to do that, you need to change your dates to later.

[Perry Romanowski]

All right.

[Valerie George]

And I'm sorry, like, June's already summer. It's hard to be in show mode. You know, most people already have stuff going on.

[Perry Romanowski]

That is such a. A good point. Speaking of stuff going on.

[Valerie George]

Beauty. Well, this first news story was really interesting because obviously I'm in the hair industry. You're in the hair industry, or were. And researchers uncovered a protector protein to revive hair growth.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, I was a little skeptical of this. I'm always skeptical of the hair growth stuff. But apparently this medical team say that they discovered this stem cell, a protein that can actually restart hair growth with the follicles. So what happens is when this thing.

[Valerie George]

Stops Working, your follicle stops working.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. And the hair falls off and you go bald. But apparently you can get a protein that's going to reverse this thing from not working and restart the hair growth in a follicle. It just sounds incredible to me.

[Valerie George]

Well, I think this is just one way to look at hair loss, because people do lose hair for many reasons. Oxidation is one of them. Stress in the hair follicle is another another. And once the hair follicle and that dermal papilla, which is the only biologically active component in the hair follicle, you know, undergoes stress and goes dormant, can undergo shrinkage. It can, you know, fall asleep, sometimes even undergo apoptosis. And this protector protein is alleged to help control all of that. But if you have hair loss for different reasons, I think that this would be very different. The other challenge is, while this could be great news, we really can't do anything with it.

[Perry Romanowski]

I mean, I guess you could. If there's a protein, you could get the structure of the protein and maybe create something that might mimic that protein to revive it. But that's hard to do. And that goes beyond the cosmetic realm anyway.

[Valerie George]

Exactly where I was going at is this is really a drug claim. Right. If you can regulate the hair growth cycle, which is what drugs do, it would be a drug, and you would need clinical trials, animal testing, years and years of safety evaluation. And so I just don't see this happening anytime soon. And so while it does advance knowledge, I think we're a long ways away from having anything meaningful come out of it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, there was one other thing that I did notice this, and it said this was done in an animal model. So, you know.

[Valerie George]

Oh, they all are on mice, usually.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And so just because it works in an animal doesn't mean it's gonna work in people. So maybe this isn't as exciting as the headline puts out, but maybe it is.

[Valerie George]

Touche. Another great point. What did you see?

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, this one reminded me of you, but I saw this article published in Cosmetics Design. It said, hair color litigation targets l' Oreal usa, Wella, Clairol and more for alleged failure to warn of a cancer risk. And there's a lawsuit filed in Los Angeles county, way out there in la.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

And that is alleging that a bunch of these professional hair dye products contributed to the development of bladder cancer in California based cosmetologists after decades of occupational exposure. And so there looks like they're suing everybody. And the suit alleges that the person worked in a salon as a Professional hairdresser and being exposed to these products was responsible for their cancer.

[Valerie George]

Well, I have a lot to say about that. So this lawsuit, I've heard about it before. It's all over billboard's, map magazines, the tv. They're trying to recruit people for this. Basically, they're saying that these compounds have given people cancer and through touching and inhalation. And the impurities that they're alleging, first of all, are not volatile.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

So one would not expect to breathe them in. And typically, the volatile components of hair color are different. Alkalizers, isopropyl alcohol. They wouldn't carry these impurities with them. These impurities are also really highly regulated, and one of them isn't even expected to be found if the dye manufacturing process goes correctly. I also have called dozens and dozens of laboratories, and there is no commercially available method for testing for these impurities in mixtures. I was really surprised that they have this data about these impurities that no one can seem to produce anywhere. And then finally, let's say they had dermal exposure. Why weren't they wearing gloves? Every hair color box says to wear proper safety precautions, wear gloves. I don't know. I just think it's people trying to get money.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, that is certainly true. They say the lawsuit claims that the manufacturer failed to disclose that the hair dye products contain hazardous chemicals like these. Are there warnings on hair boxes?

[Valerie George]

I mean, there's warnings about safe use, patch testing for the consumer, etc. But I just, you know, this lawsuit has been going around in the hair color circles, and it's just. We're all perplexed, needless to say. Yeah, you don't want to call me to be an expert witness, Perry.

[Perry Romanowski]

They pretty much went for everybody. I mean, I can't imagine that the entire. The amount of hair coloring that is done in this country and the world, it's done so much that there would be many more instances of cancer than there are. Right?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. And also what's interesting is, you know, l' Oreal, Wella, Clairol, they have invented a lot of these dyes or commercialized them for use in hair color. And they actually have provided a lot of the safety data to demonstrate that these colorants are used. They've worked with legislative bodies to provide the pertinent information to create the rigorous guidelines that we have today around hair color purity and safety. And so I have a hard time believing if any companies. These are the guys using cheapy, crappy stuff with tons of impurities that shouldn't be there.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Like they're testing for this stuff. And by the way, I've learned my hair color training comes from dye synthesis chemists who used to work at these companies. So I just. I don't know. I think it's unfortunate that someone did get cancer, but I think this is the wrong place to look. I think they're looking for a payday.

[Perry Romanowski]

I think it's also important to note for consumers that you don't have to be worried that your hair color is gonna give you cancer. There's no evidence of that.

[Valerie George]

No, not at all. It's just one of those things that gets, you know, thrown under the bus. Now, people can be allergic to it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

And, you know, we won't talk about that here, but cancer? I just. I don't think so. We make hair color every day, and we do it safely. If anything, we're the ones breathing it in with. When the emulsion's being heated and, you know, stuff's going in the air. And I just, you know, I think, you know, we're making it safely and using PPE and fume hoods and all that kind of stuff.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, no doubt this one will go through the courts, but it's going to take a long time.

[Valerie George]

There was another interesting cosmetics design article about social media's growing influence on cosmeceutical trends. And at first I thought this was kind of a stupid article because it's like, well, obviously, like, people are getting their information from TikTok, which is the worst place you could get it. Maybe there's a worser place, and I'm just not thinking of it. But interesting that cosmeceuticals is back. That's what I thought was interesting about it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. Well, I think it makes sense to me that people who are marketing these products are going to try to make social media content. And it's just a lot easier to make social media content naming a specific ingredient or something and say, oh, this is the next greatest thing. And especially if it's not an ingredient that people generally know about. And it's just so much easier to spread information to consumers, directly to consumers. In the old days, we had to, you know, write articles in women's magazines or beauty magazines and hope that it gets through editorial and then that gets to the consumers and who watches it or they'll see it on daytime tv. Now, information about every single ingredient is in your social media feed and your TikTok feed, and anybody can say anything they want on these social media sources. And oftentimes it's just not true information.

[Valerie George]

Not at all. Not at all. But what I thought was interesting that the term cosmeceuticals is back. Didn't we stop using that 15 years ago?

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, well, I don't think, you know, a term like that ever would really go away. It's, it's sort of like what's that term for being allergen free? Hypoallergenic.

[Valerie George]

Yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

Another term that was. Should have gone away in the 1970s, but it's still used.

[Valerie George]

Right, Used it back in the 70s.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, that's what happened with the word hypoallergenic in the United States. Has no legal meaning.

[Valerie George]

Well, that I knew. But it was around back in the 70s.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, it was back in the 1970s is when this was all, that's when it was all litigated because manufacturer wanted to use the word hypoallergenic and the FDA said, oh, you can't do that because, you know, you haven't proved that it's allergen free or safe for allergen. And the companies sued the FDA to say there's no definition for hypoallergenic so you can't make a stop. And ultimately it ended up on the side against the fda. So that's why in the United States anybody could say hypoallergenic and prove however they want that it is. So it doesn't really mean much.

[Valerie George]

Interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, I would anticipate that this kind of thing will continue to go on. People will continue to learn about beauty products through social media, at least until AI takes over everything.

[Valerie George]

Well, I mean, except people are going to use it AI through social media. So I mean, it's not going to stop. And the problem is, you know, let's say that does happen. It is happening. Now. AI is not perfect. There's lots of bad data. I even, you know, I teach a class a couple nights a week and you know, I know that people use the Internet and AI to give them answers for some of the questions. Even though I say please don't, please use the presentation, please please use critical thinking skills. And you know, I think sometimes they get bad answers and they don't get the points for them.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, they definitely give bad answers. I, I did a, I'm sure was showing my friend the problem with that. Don't ever rely on these AIs for doing math. I just took a number, a four digit number and I squared it. So you get four digit numbers squared. And then I took that answer, I put it in chatgpt I said, what's the square root of this number? And in three tries it gave me different answers and they were all wrong.

[Valerie George]

Well, two, they'll give you citations for like, let's say you ask a scientific question, they'll give you citations that are completely false. That publication never existed. The author's never been in that publication.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

It's like, where are they getting that from?

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, if it doesn't know the answer, it makes it up and it says it confidently. So buyer beware. If you're learning about stuff, cosmeceuticals and things on TikTok, it's a terrible place to do it. And pretty soon AI is also a terrible place to learn about these things. So where do you learn the bottom, though?

[Valerie George]

I think you have to learn from trusted people. And even then it's like, well, how do you trust the people? How deep do you go?

[Perry Romanowski]

I know it's hard to know. It's getting harder and harder to be a consumer. I just stay, remain skeptical and try products out. And if it works for you, it does. And don't necessarily believe the way that it's marketed or the ingredient that they're talking about. There are no new magic ingredients that you'll notice huge differences with. I mean, nobody just has invented anything in the last, I would say, 30 years, right?

[Valerie George]

No, I mean, no. I mean, not anything too revolutionary, at least. I mean, there's been a lot of, you know, innovative stuff. But I mean, you will see from some of these questions, people are just. People being brands are just reinventing the wheel for sure. There was one other interesting article speaking of hypoallergenic, where you mentioned, like, these brands can just say it and they can because there's no legal definition to it. Well, it turns out there is a brand called Huda Beauty. Do you know this brand?

[Perry Romanowski]

Huda was like a influencer or something, right?

[Valerie George]

I know you've heard of it. I know you have. Good job. Okay, so basically they had this setting spray and they claimed that it was the strongest setting spray ever and it wasn't a consumer. That bold claim. It wasn't a consumer that challenged them. They didn't get sued. But basically the nad, the National Advertising Division, which is a part of the Better Business Bureau, they basically take complaints from competitor companies and investigate them.

[Perry Romanowski]

They kind of adjudicate it and their findings go to the ftc and the FTC sort of says, oh, these findings are true. You better do something about it. Because the FTC ultimately regulates claims in products in the United States.

[Valerie George]

So here's what happened. Huda Beauty made this claim. They have this setting spray, it's the strongest one ever. And one of their competitors was like, bold claim Huda. You can't prove that. And we bet you didn't prove that. And the NAD said, you know what, we're going to open an investigation. Thank you, competitor company for reporting this. By the way, I'm paraphras, paraphrasing all actions that happened, of course. And so they went to Huda Beauty and said, do you have proof? And basically, I'm going to guess they did not have proof for their Easy Bake setting spray about comparative marketing. And therefore that's why they dropped them, because if they had the proof, they would have fought it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, it was interesting that. I think that the, the claim originally came from some brand influencer and then they reposted it.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. And in the United States, they're actually getting a lot of framework around influencer guidelines. If you are an influencer or someone who has a material connection to a company and you make a comment, a post, a claim, anything, and the brand likes it, reposts it, you know, shares it on their website, comments on it, that's a sign of endorsement. And so even though maybe Huda didn't make the claim by acknowledging that this other person said it and was like, whoa, great, great job, we agree. Woot woot, we're amazing. Whatever they said, that's basically them saying it. And they, you know, I bet you they would have shared that somewhere. I don't know, maybe they didn't. I don't want to accuse them of doing that, but basically that's what happened and they dropped it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And the place that they got into trouble was while Huda Beauty didn't pay that influencer or anything, they did send them free products. And the product she was talking about was one that she got for free from Huda. So, you know, that's.

[Valerie George]

Hashtag material connection, quid pro quo.

[Perry Romanowski]

Alrighty. There was one other thing that I noticed since you were gone. You know, we missed an episode last week and I'm like, where's Valerie? And it turns out you're on another podcast.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my God, I'm so busted. I was.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, it was. You were on somewhere in New Zealand, I think, asking, answering questions about whether peptides give your skin a little pep.

[Valerie George]

Well, yeah, it was Radio New Zealand. They do a Sunday program. It was really fun. They asked me to be on the show because they saw an interview I did in Slate magazine about peptides in skincare. Do they really work? And that article I did in Slate was actually really interesting because there was also a dermatologist who got interviewed and they had all these misconceptions about peptides. I spent like an hour and a half on the phone with this reporter in the Slate article, just clarifying everything for her. So it was a lot of fun. So I was really honored that over in New Zealand they wanted to have me on the show.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, very cool. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes. So if you want to hear Valerie talking with somebody else.

[Valerie George]

I cheated on you. I'm sorry.

[Perry Romanowski]

No, I think it's great, you know, get Beauty Brain's name out there in the entire world. And New Zealand is a cool place in the world. World. Have you been in New Zealand?

[Valerie George]

Yeah, we both have. Well, you've been separately, but I went for the IFSCC supported me to go last year to speak at their 50th anniversary.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I bet.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, it was a great country. Even though it was in the winter. I didn't mind. Well, let's head over to our questions. Our first question comes to us from Dasha. Hi, Beauty Brains. I'm a biochemistry and molecular biology student at UMass Amherst. I found the Avene Cicaflate plus when I was in Europe and I fell in love with the product. I have very sensitive rosacea skin. However, my product has separated and this has happened to several of my tubes over the years. I'm assuming it's due to the crazy Massachusetts temperature fluctuations. There's a clear blue liquid layer and a white paint pasty layer. They have separated from each other. Unfortunately, if I try to use it, all the liquid pours out of the tube before the cream and paste comes out. My questions are, what's in the aqueous and solid layers? And is there any benefit to using just the solid layer? Is there any way for me to re emulsify this product on my own? I'm sorry I couldn't figure out how to send an audio question, but please don't use the horrible AI voices. And then there's a little emoji with tears streaming down its face. Face. Love your podcast so much, Dasha.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, well, yeah, no, that was a real. That was real Valerie voice. No AI voices here. But an interesting question. First of all, this just in general, her question probably applies to a lot of other people who you go to the store, you buy something, and then you see that your product separates. Is it still Good to use. Can it still work? And I think the answer to that depends on what the product is.

[Valerie George]

Yep.

[Perry Romanowski]

For example, if you see separation in a sunscreen that's not, that doesn't work anymore. You just shaking it up is probably not enough. What you've done is you, you kind of would ruin the film. So it's not gonna, you wouldn't anticipate that it's gonna work as well.

[Valerie George]

But although I have some sunscreens, I won't name the brand, but I really like it. And sometimes depending on the lot, you get a little separation and. Perry, I just mix that sucker up.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. You know what, I probably would do the same. I just.

[Valerie George]

I know you would. Don't act like. So you're all high and mighty like, ew, don't mix it up, Mr. Sunscreen in your golf bag.

[Perry Romanowski]

No, you know what, the only reason that I mentioned sunscreens is because you probably are not going to get the same protection. So if you have an estrogen.

[Valerie George]

That's correct. And I'm aware of that. I live with that. Correct.

[Perry Romanowski]

You'll still get some protection, no doubt. But it's just not going to be what's advertised. So be careful there. Now for products like a skin moisturizer or anti aging products, I think mostly you could shake those up. And if you put enough proper shaking, it could stay pseudo stable for a little while.

[Valerie George]

I think so as well. Well, this product doesn't appear to be a sunscreen. This appears just to be some restorative protective cream. Has zinc oxide in it, however, also can be found in sunscreens. But zinc oxide is a skin protectant. It's very great for soothing sensitive skin. It's often used in diaper creams as well.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, and I'm just looking at the ingredient list. It's, you know, water is going to be in the water phase. You'll get propylene glycol in the water phase. So just trying to describe what is that liquid? You know, some of this, this filtrate they've got.

[Valerie George]

I think it could be. What's happening here is we have a really heavy wax phase.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

We have capryllo, capric triglyceride. We have mineral oil, vegetable oil, which hydrogenated with helps increase the thickness and melt point. Zinc oxide is probably going to stay in that oily pasty phase.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

We have the emulsifiers, but we also have aluminum stearate, beeswax, magnesium stearate, micro crystalline wax. It's just like a lot of waxes. And what's happening is the water phase. Some of the ingredients that you mentioned, the thermal spring water, the glycerin, the ferment filtrate, they're probably sweating out over time.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

It might be too waxy and not enough emulsifiery.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes, probably just in the design. Now, with that much wax, it might be kind of hard to shake it up and get it all to distribute.

[Valerie George]

What if stirred it up and transferred it to another tuber jar?

[Perry Romanowski]

I mean, that could probably work. And if you even if you, like, heat it up a little bit and mix it, that might help.

[Valerie George]

But yeah, just leave it outside on a summer day in Massachusetts. Well, here's the thing. Ordinarily, yeah, we would just say shake it up. Right. Especially if it's like a more fluid lotion. You could just shake that thing really hard.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Get that water to beat back into the emulsion. But if there's this like, thick pasty layer that's kind of solids, it's probably the zinc oxide. I don't think you really can mix that up very well.

[Perry Romanowski]

You know what, it's kind of like. Do you ever get peanut butter, the natural peanut butter, where the oil phase?

[Valerie George]

Yep. Oh, yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

And then you got to stir that up and get it all to go.

[Valerie George]

The top stirs. Okay. But you never get the really hard dried out stuff at the bottom of the jar.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, actually, when I do it, I take. I have a technique. I take the knife and I like, fold it on the side so all the liquid goes down to the bottom. I have a whole technique.

[Valerie George]

You'll have to teach that to Mr. Cosmetic Chemist, because by the time we get to the end, my peanut butter banana sandwiches are so dried out from basically being like dried nut paste.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. Well, that might be another thing you could do if you could. Shaking might not work. This, because it might be too thick. But if you could stir it, you could probably stir.

[Valerie George]

Cut open the top of the tube, stir it, and then transfer it to another container.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah. But you want to have the container have a cap on it or something so you can close it again.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Also, I would let the brand know, because sometimes, I mean, they probably know. Okay. But you know, you could get the product replaced. And also by complaining, it kind of lights a fire under them to do something about it.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, absolutely. They should know that their product separating, because it shouldn't do that unless she had this for a lot of years.

[Valerie George]

Or they're selling old lot numbers or whatever. But still, I think it's worth an investigation.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly. All Right.

[Valerie George]

Next question comes to us. It's an audio question.

[Perry Romanowski]

Let me cue up the audio. Go ahead, Louise.

[C]

Hello, beauty brains. I really enjoy your show. It's very educational, and I listen to it religiously. My name's Louise, and I'm from Ottawa, Canada. I'm almost 60 years old. I have a skincare routine which includes sunscreen. However, sometimes, I don't know, it doesn't work. I'm out later in the day and the sunscreen's worn off or I forgot to put it on, and I get this burn right away. I'm of English and Polish descent. Very, very white, fair skin. Bam. There's the burn. And I'd like to know from you what's the best thing to do? Sometimes I use a product, and then it's. It stings my face after the burn. So what. What products should I use and how long should I postpone my regular skin routine? My regular skin routine is in the evenings. I use prescription retinoid or retinol. Can't remember what it's called. And then I put on a moisturizer, and in the mornings, I use vitamin C and hyaluronic acid. Sometimes I'll switch that up with cholic acid niacinamide. And so what do I do when I get the burn, and how long should I postpone my skincare routine? Thank you so much for your advice. Love you. Show.

[Perry Romanowski]

She said that she uses the sunscreen, but she gets sunburned. So, you know, I bet she probably does, but who doesn't? You don't always remember, and you certainly don't always reapply. So people get.

[Valerie George]

You and I are no strangers to sunburn. We are, like, some of the whitest people on the planet. And did I ever tell you about the time I was in Kenya on this mission trip in a remote village?

[Perry Romanowski]

I think I saw pictures on Facebook. But no. Yeah.

[Valerie George]

Okay. All right. This was a long time ago, and we went to this little remote village, and some of the children had never seen white people before.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, wow.

[Valerie George]

And I had a translator, and he said something to the kids, like, don't be rude. And I didn't know what he said. I said, oh, what's. What's happening? And he said, oh. I was just telling him it's rude to ask about your skin color. And I was like, no, it's okay. What does he want to know? And he asked, you know, like, if I had a disease that made my skin so white.

[Perry Romanowski]

Okay.

[Valerie George]

And, you know, we explained, you know, genetics and people in the world have different skin colors. And I said, but don't worry, it's about. I'm about as white as they come. And the translator laughed. Meanwhile, I was like totally sunburned like a red lobster that day. Horrible through my clothing. Very terrible.

[Perry Romanowski]

Well, when you get that sunburn, which never happens now, but so else on occasion when you get a sunburn, what do you do about it? How do what. What products do you like to use to soothe the sunburn or what do you do? Like? I, I honestly, I. I don't really do anything. I don't really get sunburned that often. I am pretty good at.

[Valerie George]

You were pretty sunburned on your vacation this year.

[Perry Romanowski]

That is true. That's true. I'm not saying I never get sunburned, but I pretty much will be at the beach. I'm that guy that's all covered up with the blanket stuff. So.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, well, when I get burned, I try to put on the lightest products possible because you want the heat to be released from the skin. You don't want to trap the heat in. That can make the redness and healing worse because you're not allowing that heat to go away, which is an inflammatory response. A lot of people make mistakes and put like heavy creams and lotions on, thinking like, oh, gosh, I don't want my skin to dry out and peel and all that. You literally want as few emollients and occlusives as possible. So think super lightweight lotions, maybe even like serums. You know, the stupid aloe gels that basically are just carbomer.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

And they're colored green to look like they came from aloe. I wouldn't do those. I mean, I guess you could. There's no harm.

[Perry Romanowski]

But those are, those are soothing because they, when you put them on, they have this rapid cooling effect and that makes the skin feel cooler. The aloe is not doing anything in there. I mean.

[Valerie George]

But no, I mean, good luck finding the aloe. Right, Right. So I would say just like, keep it as light as possible. But you also do want to keep the skin skin hydrated. You don't want it to dry out. So I would say postpone, like moisturizers and maybe switch to like lightweight serums and other super lightweight emulsified products that won't trap the heat in and keep the redness there.

[Perry Romanowski]

Now she talks about her typical routine skincare routine using the prescription retinol at and a moisturizer at night, and then in the morning using vitamin C or maybe hyaluronic acid or niacinamide. How long after a sunburn do you think a person shouldn't do these things? Because presumably, of course, if you're sunburned, you shouldn't be using prescription retinol. That. That could be bad.

[Valerie George]

Oh, gosh, yes. I also wouldn't use exfoliating acids, low pH, vitamin C serums.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Again, you want to keep the routine really simple because your skin is healing. You don't want to throw all this stuff on it. That could be irritating.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

Even niacinamide, if it's formulated properly at a neutral pH, it's just not what your skin needs at that point in time. I would just keep it simple and just go back to the very basics to keep the skin hydrated and allow heat to be released from the skin. I wouldn't. I would ditch the routine. At least until not only is the redness gone, but the dry skin has peeled away and your skin doesn't feel sensitive to the touch anymore. Because sometimes, even when your new skin is coming in, it just feels so new and gentle.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, it's all fun. Well, the best thing is to try not to get sunburned. But if you do it probably. You're gonna probably go a week without using these things, and that should be enough time.

[Valerie George]

But again, and I think your skin's gonna be fine.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

I mean, obviously you have the damage and the DNA effects and that kind of stuff. I'm talking, like, not using your normal skin care routine. I think your skin's gonna be okay. You won't even notice that you didn't.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, especially if it's just like, a week or so.

[Valerie George]

Exactly.

[Perry Romanowski]

Here's a question from Laura. Hi, Valerie and Perry. I recently purchased the l' Oreal El Vive Rapid Reviver Conditioner. It claims to be a power conditioner that you can use every washing daily with no leave in time. I do find it to be nice enough, but I'm curious about your thoughts. It says to use it with the l' Oreal El Viv shampoos, but I assume that is just marketing and it may be used alone with the same benefits. Please share your thoughts and thank you for all you do. And I love AI Voices. So if you wanted to make this an AI.

[Valerie George]

Oh, I don't think she said that. Wait, what was that?

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, that's right. That was just on my screen.

[Valerie George]

You apologize to Laura right now?

[Perry Romanowski]

No, of course. So we got this LV Rapid Reviver Conditioner. I mean, it's a product from l' Oreal So of course it's going to be good. When you say power conditioner, I don't know, that's marketing.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. Really, any conditioner, you don't need to leave on a huge amount of time. Now you can get some penetration from different fatty acids that like to be in the hair, other materials that can penetrate into the hair. Leaving it on for a little bit of time does help with that. But generally, once you put a conditioner on your hair, all the positively charged things that are going to stick, stick pretty quickly. What I like about this conditioner, by the way, I do like the l' Oreal Lviv products. They're really nice. I love amodimethicone. It's a really great material to make the hair feel soft, help reduce frizz. But it also has arginine in it, and arginine, you actually need very little arginine in a product for it to penetrate the hair and help improve hair strength. So do I believe l' Oreal when they say that basically it's suitable for daily use and your hair feels instantly revived and protected and it, you know, you don't have to leave it in because it just goes to work. It's a power conditioner. Yeah, I believe all that. But it's also all like marketing mumbo jumbo. Because I feel like most conditioners do this.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm looking at this. There are very few. There are no exceptional ingredients. To me, I've seen all the ingredients.

[Valerie George]

In this is like standard issue stuff.

[Perry Romanowski]

Amodimethogone, behemonium chloride. I mean, yeah, I mean, cetrimonium chloride. It's a good product, a good conditioner. But is this. These amazing. Like this power conditioner?

[Valerie George]

Yeah. L' Oreal is so good at marketing. The other thing is they. Sometimes a company will. Well, always a company will make a conditioner with a shampoo because people buy in pairs. When I worked at a salon brand, if we made a shampoo, it had a conditioner. If we made a conditioner, it had a shampoo with it. Even if they weren't tested together in a clinical settlement study, you just. It's like salt and pepper. They just always come in a pair. Did you guys do that at Alberto?

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, yeah, we. We did that Every. We had 15 SKUs of shampoo and 15 matching SKUs of conditioner.

[Valerie George]

Exactly. But sometimes you do have to look at the fine print, because if there are clinical testing claims or consumer perception claims associated with the conditioner or associated with the shampoo, usually that's done as a system, so you'll have to look and see. Oh, it's tested as a system and read the fine print. But I don't think that's the case here.

[Perry Romanowski]

No. And even if that is, that's they're usually testing it as the system versus just no treatment or just a standard shampoo or something.

[Valerie George]

Or just sodium Lauryl sulfate.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, right, exactly. And so that's. Those claims don't mean that much. The bottom line is the shampoo you use generally it will not matter which conditioner you use afterwards. I mean, they don't have to be matched. That's what I'm saying.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. And usually the benefit comes from the conditioner in a study, so that's usually why too. If you're testing a shampoo, you just use the conditioner with it to leverage the data.

[Perry Romanowski]

Certainly if you're using a conditioner after a shampoo, any kind of conditioning effects you get from that shampoo are not going to be noticed.

[Valerie George]

Exactly.

[Perry Romanowski]

Valerie, this one is right up your alley. So I'll read. It comes from a patron of ours. And speaking of patron, if you appreciate that our show doesn't have commercials and we don't take ad money. Well, that's because we are supported by our patrons. And if you want to support the show, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. Okay, this comes to us from Sophia. She says, I've got a question about the actual effectiveness of heat protectants. Although the podcast has said that they do help, there doesn't appear to be any standard on how much heat protection is actually provided. Is there anything that can quantify the percentage of protection that is actually provided? If a heat Protector only provides 10% less damaging results, then can we really say it's providing all that much benefit over time? It seems to me at most it was only about a 50% protective benefit, depending on the formula. And then she includes an abstract to a paper.

[Valerie George]

Interesting question. So the paper that's being referenced from 2011 was written by researchers who worked at a company called isp, which became part of another company called Ashland. And they were evaluating their thermal protectants for how they worked.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right.

[Valerie George]

And so they used a process that they had developed they wanted to look at specifically from thermal damage with flat irons operating at 232 degrees Celsius, which is pretty much as high as a flat iron will go. And so what they did is they pre treated the hair with different products that contained polymers of interest that they.

[Perry Romanowski]

Carried And ISP is a polymer company, so they make polymers specifically for hair. They actually make all the hairspray polymers. But then they got into this other phase of hair protectants, and so that's why they were doing all this work.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. So they basically looked at imaging the hair, looking at the temperature in which hair proteins denature. They looked at the chemical fingerprint of hair, and they basically found that heat degrades keratin, which we know damages the cuticle surface, which we know, and it impacts the ability of hair to retain moisture. And ultimately that leads to breakage during combing. And so while untreated hair showed significant damage, the polymers ultimately, in their opinion, offered substantial protection. Otherwise they wouldn't have published the results if it was terrible for the hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. If the product didn't work, you wouldn't know about it.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, yeah.

[Perry Romanowski]

That is one interesting thing about research. In an industry like the cosmetic industry, the stuff that you're reading about that gets published is generally more positive than what is found because studies where it proves that something doesn't work, you're not going to read that. Nobody publishes that. So there is that bias whenever somebody publishes positive research.

[Valerie George]

Yeah. And so this paper actually found that when you use a heat protectant, and this isn't a new discovery, this is like, you know, very common fact. But basically these polymers absorb the heat and avoid diffusion directly into the the hair fiber. And so the hair has a lower temperature, resulting in less breakage because the polymer is kind of taking the brunt. And they found up to 76% reduction in some. 76% reduction in breakage in some cases, whereas other polymers don't have this protective effect. So they really were trying to show how their polymers offer this benefit. And some other traditional polymers, which by the way, have known heat protection don't, which is maybe what the question asker was alluding to. So I think this is just one paper and I think the method that you employ, the hair that you use, how you pre treat the hair, what humidity you're testing in, there's a lot of factors that go into testing for thermal protection, but typically there are some industry except accepted protocols, but there's no like smoking gun protocol where it's like, wow, this is the way to really tell it has heat protection. Usually you have to do multiple tests and usually it's done with a flat iron at 450 degrees Fahrenheit or over 200 Celsius, and they'll damage the hair and do other tests with that. That's always how we did it. And then you can just extrapolate that to, well, offers up to 450, 50 degrees Fahrenheit heat protection. You don't get into blow drying or not blow drying or any of that kind of stuff. So it's really just studies to show that in this instance it did protect from heat. Now do I think there's a benefit? Let's say there's even 10% less damage. Does that really provide all that much benefit over time? I would say yes, because you're usually not flat ironing your hair over one instance. You're doing it every day, multiple times a week. And that damage really can be additive. And also, you know, Sophia mentioned that at most there was only a 50% protective benefit, depending on the formula. I would just say that's like this paper, right? Like there's heat protectants I've worked with that have really great data from the supplier and we've been able to replicate it or even improve upon it, depending on the technology in my previous life. So I would say it's hard to take tell, you know, in looking at a formula or looking at a heat protectant. But just like in general, even if it's like 10% less hair damage, I would say it's worth using one than not using one.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah. And I look at this one, it says, you know, up to 70, 76% less breakage. So what does that mean when you, when you test, test breakage, you take a tress and you do the treatment on it and then you take a robotic comb and then you run it like a hundred times through the hair and then you count how many hairs are broken. So if there's a 76% less breakage, you have to say, okay, how many hairs were broken in the first one? So say 100 hairs are broken in your 100 automatic combs. 76 per reduction would be. You still got 25, about 25 hair broken hairs versus 100 now. That's better. But it doesn't completely protect your hair 100%. And so you're still going to notice some broken hairs. And you might say to yourself, oh, well, I guess it's not working. But it, but it is working because you would have had a lot more broken hairs.

[Valerie George]

And so especially if you chemically treat your hair, if you really want to destroy hair and then take pictures of it, you would chemically treat it by lightening it or doing like a high lift color and then then thermally damaging it.

[Perry Romanowski]

You mean exposing it to lightning?

[Valerie George]

Yes, like atmospheric lightning, right?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes.

[Valerie George]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So that's the way to really trash hair. But, yeah. So I would say at even 10%, it's worth it. But here I am like a doctor smoking cigarettes, telling you to quit smoking.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

I don't always use a heat protectant because I'm lazy.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, it's. It is a problem with some products. Like, it's. You get the benefit. It's sort of ambiguous whether you notice it, but it's kind of a pain to use a product. I feel that way about sunscreens, to tell you the truth, but I still try to use them when I can.

[Valerie George]

I know. I know.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, my God. We have an audio question to finish it off.

[Valerie George]

All right, time for one more question. Let's hear it from Melissa.

[D]

I'm Melissa, a longtime fan, and like Perry, I'm in Chicago. I'm also a moderator on the hair care science subreddit that Perry mentioned. And we do get tons of questions about this protein overload phenomenon, which, of course, isn't a science, but people really insist it's a thing that happens. So I was especially interested in your April episode where you touched on this topic. And I've been doing a lot of research and trying to figure out, like, what's at the heart of this, what is happening. I did find something that supports Valerie's argument, so I had to dig pretty deep to find any scientific sources that said anything potentially negative about protein ingredients. But then I came across Principles of Polymer Science and Technology in Cosmetic and Personal Care, 1999. They have this chapter on proteins by Kegli and Secchi, and they highlight some potential downsides. They note that excessive accumulation of peptides on the hair surface can lead to heaviness, brain rigidity, and turbo electric charging. I don't know what that is. They also suggest that with repeated applications, peptides might bind to those already attached to the hair and create a lot of buildup. So there is this chart in the chapter that shows increasing substantivity with repeated applications of a 1% wheat protein hydrosylate solution. Even after thorough rinsing. That surprised me. But then I read that hydrolyzed proteins can be polar, and so they have those positive charges, which could help them stick to hair more effectively, as well as the negative charges, of course. So here's my question. Do you think regular hydrolyzed proteins could really build up in this way? And could those polar charges on coated strands be repelling each other, causing puppiness or something? Is that what the authors meant? By this triboelectric charging.

[Valerie George]

Wow. What a great question. I love proteins. So this one hits close to home.

[Perry Romanowski]

You do love proteins. I love to eat proteins, I guess. Although, you know. Although. Although I always do ponder the idea of going and becoming a vegetarian. In fact, today is my vegetarian day. I don't eat meat. Like, once a week. I don't eat meat.

[Valerie George]

Do you pick the day or is it always like Tuesday?

[Perry Romanowski]

It's generally Monday or Tuesday. Like, if I have something going on on a Monday that's like social, like.

[Valerie George]

A steakhouse or something. Okay, I'll do tomorrow.

[Perry Romanowski]

Exactly, exactly. So I. I'm a flexitarian, as it were.

[Valerie George]

You know, I used to be vegetarian. Not by choice, but I just got sick from eating.

[Perry Romanowski]

Me.

[Valerie George]

I never liked the taste. And then just slowly I've, you know, added it into my diet and whatnot. But, you know, I had bacon for the first time as an adult, like, five years ago.

[Perry Romanowski]

Wow.

[Valerie George]

During Covetous and, you know, I went and bought some local ranch bacon.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

Not like, you know, Oscar Mayer or anything. Commercial bacon or anything like that.

[Perry Romanowski]

Sure.

[Valerie George]

Cooked it up. And I was like, wow, bacon's pretty good.

[Perry Romanowski]

That is the problem.

[Valerie George]

But I don't like it all the time if it's too bacony.

[Perry Romanowski]

Right. I'm just philosophically vegetarian. I just am not able to live that way. All right, so let's get back to these hair hydrolyzed proteins. Do you think the hydrolyzed proteins are building up on hair?

[Valerie George]

I think they certainly can, especially if you don't give your hair a break from them. If you're only using products with protein in them. The proteins, as Melissa mentioned, are both positively and negatively charged, Although sometimes they have like, an overall negative charge or an overall overall positive charge. But they're amphoteric in that sense, meaning they could have both. And since damaged hair is negatively charged, a portion of the protein could stick to hair. Also, sometimes hair is positively charged and negative proteins will stick, and sometimes they just stick anyway because proteins are film formers. And if you're always using protein.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah.

[Valerie George]

And protein. And protein. And not giving it a chance to be washed off, of course you'll get buildup. You got to give your hair a break.

[Perry Romanowski]

You do. And, you know, a lot of times while I always say, well, proteins are water soluble, so they rinse right down the drain. Well, not all rinsing is the same. You know, if you don't thoroughly rinse your hair. Yeah. Stuff can be left behind. And if, you know, all hydrolyzed proteins are Going to have some level of positive charges and some level of negative charges. So they all have the potential to stick to their hair. As far as the build up, is that something you're going to notice? I don't, I'm not sure that you're gonna notice this huge buildup when you compare it to like oil buildup from Sebum or something like that. So.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's hard to say and it's hard to. I mean, the protein type makes difference as well. Like wheat protein is very stiff. It's a very stiff film. It's not flexible like let's say a pea protein is. And so I think that can make a difference as well. Also, it's really hard to tell how much product, how much protein is contained within the product. Like the paper that was referenced is a 1% wheat protein hydrolysate solution. Hopefully it's 1% of a 20% solution or 1% of a 10% solution. I don't know the details and I didn't get to access that book chapter, but if it was 1% active, that's a lot of protein. I personally am not heavy handed in the protein use in formulations because I think a little bit gets the consumer to where they need to be. But again, if every product you're using has a lot of protein and it's pretty protein treatments and protein this, and then you're not actually cleaning your hair with something that doesn't have a protein in it. Yeah, I mean, you're probably going to get some buildup.

[Perry Romanowski]

And as far as whether the protein on the hair strands are repelling the fibers, I think you're going to get equal amounts of repelling and attracting. So I don't think overall it's going to cause extra puffiness or anything. I don't think you'll notice that.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, but the authors said they noticed this during the study. Now here's the other thing. The hair was just treated with the protein hydrolysate solution. It wasn't necessarily treated with a commercial product. Right?

[Perry Romanowski]

Yes, yes.

[Valerie George]

And that may counteract some of that electrostaticness of the hair.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, yeah. So maybe you'd see it in a protein solution, but I don't think you'd see it in a product. But hey, I could be mistaken, but I don't think I am.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, well, very interesting. Oops, there's the music. We do have to go. Thanks for listening, everybody. If you get a chance, head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. That's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer. Perry's also sure to see your comments there. And that's actually how we found out that most of you hate the AI voices. So thank you. Thank you.

[Perry Romanowski]

Yeah, that's over on Spotify. And if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can just use the form that we put in the show notes. We always like to get your questions. And speaking of questions, the beauty brains are on Patreon. And if you want your question to be answered in a higher priority order, you become a patron. And you can do that by going to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also can get a copy of the transcript of every show. And every so often, we publish some special stuff there, like porch kitty songs.

[Valerie George]

Nice. Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the BeautyBrains on Blue Skyworthy Beauty Brains, we have a Facebook page and a TikTok. Well, thanks again for listening.

[Perry Romanowski]

Oh, God, no, no, that's. That's a tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

[Valerie George]

Yeah, I can't even, like, open the app. All right, well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[Perry Romanowski]

Thanks, everyone. Kittens.