Heat protectants, red light, antioxidants and more - episode 412

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: The Beauty Brains
Episode: Heat protectants, red light, antioxidants and more (Episode 412)
Date: November 26, 2025
Hosts: Perry Romanowski & Valerie George
Theme:
Real cosmetic chemists answer listener questions about beauty product efficacy—from heat protectants to red light therapy, luxury cream pricing, home remedies for skin irritation, and antioxidant balms. The episode provides evidence-based insights to help consumers make informed beauty decisions and avoid marketing hype.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Longevity and Effectiveness of Heat Protectants

Question (19:03): Does a heat protectant applied one day last through subsequent styling sessions, like using a curling iron two days after blow drying?

• Valerie (20:16):
  • "It really depends what the heat protectant is... Some silicones like amodimethicone are attracted to hair and can last through a couple washes... but not all formulas are the same."
  • Heat protectant longevity hinges on the nature of the film former (polymer/silicone), degree of hair exposure to friction, and whether the product is leave-on or rinse-off.
  • Environmental wear (e.g., wearing hats, going outside) can break the protective film faster.
• Perry (21:11):
  • "I wouldn't imagine it's lasting much longer than a day or two... better to reapply."
• Consensus: For safety and better efficacy, it’s best to reapply a dedicated leave-in heat protectant before each heat styling session, as the level and type of active ingredients vary between rinse-offs and leave-ins.
• Notable Quote:
  • Valerie (23:05): "Because heat is so damaging, it's just better to be safer than sorry."

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2. Red Light Therapy Mask Brand Comparisons (Luna vs. Omnilux)

Question (24:38): Are Instagram claims about Luna red light mask efficacy versus Omnilux accurate?

• Valerie (25:39):
  • Critiques viral experiment comparing two masks with vinyl sheets: "My question is, how do we know the vinyl only reacted to red light?... It’s eye-catching but doesn’t tell us the whole story."
• Perry (26:44):
  • "Omnilux uses red light at 633nm and near-infrared at 830nm... Dermatology does show these can help—with mild effects on photoaging, nothing dramatic, and protocols vary widely. Hard to say if a specific mask will mirror research results."
• Valerie (28:26):
  • "Bottom line, based on this experiment, I don't think one is better than the other... Consumer comfort and actually using the device regularly is more important."
• Recommendation: Check credible consumer reviews and prioritize device comfort and consistent use over flashy marketing or “internet experiments.” Differences between masks are unlikely to produce noticeably different results for most users.
• Notable Quote:
  • Perry (29:27): "I really think it's hard to notice anything using these red lights anyway that you'll notice a difference between two similar ones."

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3. Why are Luxury Creams (e.g., Augustinus Bader Rich Cream) So Expensive?

Question (30:07): Why is the Rich Cream so expensive, and are there comparable alternatives?

• Valerie (31:12):
  • "What you’re primarily paying for is the brand image. $305 for 1.7oz... automatically people are going to say, 'this is a luxury product.'"
  • Custom packaging, clinical positioning, and celebrity doctor associations elevate cost, not necessarily ingredient expense.
• Perry (33:04):
  • Breaks down the numbers: "Even if the true cost including packaging is $50 a pound, it’s not $190 an ounce."
• On Ingredients:
  • Standard emollients (e.g., sunflower, coconut, shea butter), some peptides, but the actives are typically present at very low concentrations.
  • No clear evidence that high-price ingredients are present at high enough levels to justify the price.
  • Clinical studies typically measure the finished product versus a control, not just the hero ingredient, and improvements are rarely dramatic unless judged by user satisfaction.
• Comparable Products:
  • New “Dua” line co-created with Dua Lipa uses similar technology at lower price points.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Perry (33:14): "The cost is most likely not in the ingredients; it's the marketing."
  • Valerie (37:23): “These are pretty standard, run-of-the-mill skincare ingredients...”

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4. Can You Substitute Rubbing Alcohol for Aftershave Products like Tend Skin?

Question (37:43): Can regular rubbing alcohol substitute for Tend Skin in preventing itching and ingrowns after shaving?

• Perry (38:43):
  • "If you just use isopropyl alcohol, you’re missing humectants, cyclomethicone, glycerin—and the acetyl salicylic acid... definitely a difference in feel and function."
• Valerie (39:19):
  • "Salicylic acid not only exfoliates but is oil soluble and helps with irritation... it works even at neutral pH."
• Consensus: Rubbing alcohol alone is not a suitable alternative. The additional ingredients in Tend Skin (salicylic acid, humectants, silicones) soothe skin, exfoliate, and maintain moisture balance, beyond simple sterilization.
• Notable Quote:
  • Perry (39:47): "I gotta say, I don't think it's a suitable substitute just using rubbing alcohol."

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5. Antioxidant Absorption from Balm Formulas (Drunk Elephant Wonderwild Balm)

Question (40:58): Will antioxidants in Wonderwild Balm absorb into skin or stay on top?

• Valerie (42:15):
  • Most “antioxidants” in balms are natural oil components like vitamin E, which exist in very low concentrations.
  • These molecules are often consumed stabilizing the product during shelf life rather than providing impactful skin benefits.
• Perry (44:30):
  • “If there are antioxidants in the oils, they’re not going to get deep into the skin. They stay on top—in the stratum corneum (outer dead layers).”
• Conclusion: These products provide surface moisturizing and protection; any antioxidant activity is minor and limited to the outermost skin. Don't expect systemic antioxidant effects from a balm.
• Notable Quote:
  • Perry (44:30): “...they’re gonna stay on top... in the stratum corneum, not getting down into the body.”

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Additional Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Reapplying Heat Protectants:
  • Valerie (23:05): “Because heat is so damaging, it's just better to be safer than sorry.”
• On AI and "Sameness" in Beauty Product Innovation:
  • Perry (13:17): “There’s a worry we’ll get to a point where the products are not differentiated at all except through marketing stories.”
• On Ingredient Costs in Skincare:
  • Valerie (34:09): “...Evonik quoted $1 million per kilo for a special ceramide ingredient—sometimes prices are set just to keep people from buying.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment | |------|---------| | 00:38 | Episode preview of questions/topics | | 08:57 | News: Augustinus Bader x Dua Lipa affordable line | | 12:24 | AI, innovation & “sameness” in cosmetics | | 16:51 | Listener feedback: Team Valerie vs. Team Perry | | 19:03 | Q1: Heat protectant longevity | | 24:38 | Q2: Red light therapy masks (Luna vs. Omnilux) | | 30:07 | Q3: The true cost of luxury creams | | 37:43 | Q4: Can rubbing alcohol replace aftershave solutions? | | 41:11 | Q5: Do antioxidant balms absorb into skin? |

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Episode Tone

The conversation is playful, approachable, and grounded in scientific skepticism. The hosts’ chemistry is friendly and humorous, with candid asides about lab mishaps, personal lives, and cat adventures. They balance myth-busting with an encouraging tone: “be brainy about your beauty.” The overall message emphasizes rational skepticism, intelligent product choices, and a critical eye toward marketing.

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Final Thought

Valerie: “Remember, be brainy about your beauty.” (47:54)

For more, check out the Beauty Brains, and if you have questions, send them in for future episodes!

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Perry and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Hello and welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 412. I'm your host, Perry Romanowski, and with me today is Valerie George. Hello, Valerie.

[B]

Hi, Perry.

[A]

Valerie, do we have a. Do we have a guest on the show right now?

[C]

We have a special guest loitering in the background.

[A]

His name's Baby C. Baby C. So maybe you'll hear some input from Baby C. But hopefully Baby C will also help us answer some of these questions, including how long do heat protection last? Is there a meaningful difference between red light therapy mask or why would an anti aging cream be really expensive? Can't you just use rubbing alcohol to prevent itching and ingrown hairs? And finally, in an antioxidant balm. Will the antioxidants absorb into the skin or do they stay on top? But first, a little chit chat. Valerie, you know what happened last week for me?

[C]

What happened?

[A]

Well, I was, I was in Hong Kong. I'll get to that. But I just crossed 17 years of my running streak.

[C]

Wow, 17. That is someone's entire. I mean, you graduate from high school when you're 17 or 18.

[A]

My running streak can finally go see R rated movies.

[C]

Is it 17 now? It's probably been 17 for a while and I just haven't noticed.

[A]

Isn't it NC17 that you don't, you don't go to the movies anymore?

[C]

I used to, but just, you know, not anymore. It's hard, you know. Well, first of all, when I do get in a movie mood, I'm like, I just don't want to see, see anything. And then it's crowded or maybe the weather's bad. You know, I have a few businesses that also puts a damper on it. And now I have a baby.

[A]

And then there's probably a big TV at home too. So you can pretty much watch anything you want anyway, right?

[C]

Well, that's part of it, but I actually don't even know how to turn our TV on.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

I do not. Yeah, we just, we don't really watch it.

[A]

Not TV people though. All right.

[C]

Well, I mean, you know, we used to watch movies. We did have TV shows that we would binge watch. But I mean, just really the last couple years since moving to Texas, it's really hard to find that downtime or create that downtime. And when I do have downtime, I, you Know, I want to get a facial, I want to doom scroll and look at memes. Like, I just kind of want to do stupid things. And the other day I had a call with a client and they always like to do an icebreaker and they said, oh, what's your guilty junk TV pleasure? You know, your guilty pleasure. And I'm like, I don't really watch tv. But so many people on the call were like, oh my gosh. Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that.

[C]

And I was like, that show sounds so stupid. But then the next day, literally in the New York Times, they were like, if you are not watching this show, you need to, no matter who you are. And I was like, I should check it out.

[A]

I think one of the secret wives is on Dancing with the Stars.

[C]

I heard that. And I heard some people don't like her. I've had a couple people already talk about her.

[A]

Well, my wife watches the show. That's the only reason. Dancing with the Stars, that is. She doesn't watch the Mormon show. She watches Dancing with the Stars.

[C]

Well, maybe she should watch the Mormon show. According to the New York Times, who.

[B]

Has listed us as one of the.

[C]

Top beauty podcasts to listen to.

[A]

Oh, that's right. I remember.

[C]

Do you remember that time we forgot.

[B]

To tell everyone that?

[A]

We did. We did. You know, we're low key, humble brags or whatever. Yeah, well, you know what I did?

[C]

You went to Hong Kong.

[A]

When I went to Hong Kong, I watched a lot of movies on the plane. I think I watched like eight movies or something.

[C]

Oh my goodness. What'd you watch? I mean, anything that is worth talking.

[A]

About, you know, not really. I mean, they were all good. I like all movies really, but I usually watch the sappy romance movies or I watch dystopian end of the world kinds of things.

[C]

Now I picture you watching dystopian movies, but not sappy romance movies. I'm kind of surprised by that.

[A]

Oh yeah, I'm a fan. You know, I. I've always liked Harry Met Sally kind of movies.

[C]

Oh, a little soft side of Harry.

[A]

Anyway, Hong Kong was very interesting. A big show. There's lots of people there. I did like a little TikTok video and you know what the big technology they were talking about there was.

[C]

Mm, what was it?

[A]

Peptides. Everybody was talking about Peptides.

[C]

Well, you know, they do like peptides in Asia, so I'm not surprised. That's actually where most of them are manufactured.

[A]

Oh yeah. And you know, Crota had this big presentation on all the different peptides that they're launching. And the future stuff was peptides. But, you know, I watched a lot of these presentations, and, you know, my biggest conclusion about most of them was they don't work. There are ones that either don't work, or if they did work, then these would be drugs, so.

[C]

Exactly that.

[A]

It's the problem that we have in this beauty industry. Right. Because stuff that you can do that's not a drug, like moisturizing and cleaning, pretty much, we can do that. The extra stuff, the remove wrinkles, the anti hyperpigmentation stuff, rosacea kind of thing, all of that stuff is really requiring drug actives. And those aren't really cosmetics. And when I see a peptide, at.

[C]

Least in the United States and Canada, they're not exactly.

[A]

And when I see a peptide talking about going in your dermal layer and interfering with your cell metazoles and stuff, I'm like, that's a drug. But, oh, you know, that's how our industry is going, right?

[C]

It definitely is.

[A]

And how did your week go?

[C]

Let me summarize my week for you in one action. I. DoorDash. McDonald's.

[A]

DoorDash McDonald's.

[C]

That's how bad my week was, Perry. I said, I need McDonald's and I need to pay a premium for someone to bring it to me.

[A]

Wow. Wow. Now, did they at least bring you an ice cream cone or something?

[C]

That would have been nice. How embarrassing. It was this huge bag. I was so stressed out. I was like, ugh, I need to eat. I need to eat quick. And I thought, you know what? McDonald's is right down the street. And I couldn't leave because my lab had a little foundation issue.

[A]

Oh, wait, you mean the stuff you put on your face?

[C]

Exactly. It was all over the floor. We were slipping all over the place. No, Perry. The foundation. You know, the thing the building sat on.

[A]

Oh, building. I totally. I got that kind of fun.

[C]

Basically, we are on the Trinity river, and Dallas, Texas, including most of Texas, actually has a weird soft clay earth. And it turns out there's like, tons of structural issues with buildings all the time and houses. You never realize how crooked the sidewalks are until you move here.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Wow. Everything's not really straight. But anyway, the building is basically slipping into the river, and the foundation kind of yikes, cracked halfway through the building. And so we basically had to move everything out of the back to the front or remove it from the building while they do that repair.

[A]

Oh, my.

[C]

Yeah, it's been a little stressful. You know, when you work in a Lab and you can't access anything.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds a little stressful. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And now Doug is at our house.

[C]

As you guys know, Doug lives at the lab. He loves it there. I let him outside to play with brother often, and then he comes back in, but he's at our house. So it's driving Butch and Frank crazy.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Because they do not know how to behave around cats. And Doug is just, you know, getting the zoomies and, like, being nuts and destroying things.

[A]

So he's a happy cat, as the song goes.

[C]

Yeah, he loves it here. So, yeah, it's just like. It's a lot. And I thought I needed McDonald's to soothe my soul, and that's what I did. But I had to do delivery, so $25 later.

[A]

Did you get fries at least?

[B]

I did.

[C]

They were pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, they do have the good fries. All right, well, I'm sure it's wonderful for your skin.

[C]

You know what? I'm going to be back on my feet in no time, physically and emotionally.

[A]

You are. You are. Well, speaking of getting on our feet in no time, let's go to the news.

[C]

Did you see that Augustinus spotter? You know, the really expensive skincare brand known for the rich face cream, which is a few hundred dollars. Did you know they created a line with DUA LIPA called dua, and it is basically an economic version of their own skincare products, or it at least uses the technology, the trigger factor complex. TFC5. It uses that technology in those products.

[A]

Really? Wow. Isn't it just cannibalizing its own product or something?

[C]

Well, that's what the Internet is saying. They're like, whoa, this is brand suicide. Because you have this skincare line that's extremely expensive, and it's supposed to be expensive because it has this really fascinating technology in it.

[A]

Trigger factor complex.

[B]

Very great.

[C]

You know, it's the basis of Dr. Botter's research. He would use this technology on severe burn victims in his clinic. And then they're taking it and putting it into a more accessible line. And so people are saying, whoa, Augustinus Badr. Like, why would people go by your line if they are able to get access to your technology through something more economic called dua?

[A]

That's crazy. They're figuring that it's a different client base, then it's going to be her fans going for this. And badder is like. Like Botter people aren't looking for a DUA lipe thing, Right?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I mean, do you think it's One.

[C]

Of those things where they're using the technology but at lower levels and like you still gotta buy his stuff to get the full shebang. Like what, what do you think? I mean, because usually it's totally typical for a company that owns a technology or many brands, they'll infuse that technology from their premium brand distilled down into some of the lower, more accessible products. Like this is a classic l' Oreal tactic that's done quite frequently. But do you think it'll be successful here? I mean, I don't know. Like they do have different clientele as you said. But do they really?

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, Dua Lipa. Lipa. Dua Lipa. Ms. Lipa, she's 30s, 30, something, right? So she's sort of skews younger. I imagine this Dr. Badder is skewing older. So maybe their brands are going for different clientele, right?

[C]

Yeah, I mean you definitely not many young people are buying Augustine's Botter products. I mean it's definitely an older position, but. Did I ever tell you I've bought one before?

[A]

You did?

[C]

No, I went, I did like a crowdsourcing on the rich cream.

[A]

But you raised money to get it?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, basically it was like, hey, let.

[C]

Several of us go in on it and we'll eat, we'll split the product up just so we can see if we like it and sure, you know, it definitely had a mature skin type feel. It was like very heavy and occlusive and I know it's called the rich cream, but it was in a very old fashioned kind of way. I just thought good thing I didn't pay full price for this. Although technically I did on an ounce, for an ounce basis. But you know what I mean, right?

[A]

Well, sure, sure. But you know, it's one of those things where it's an aesthetic thing, Right, Exactly.

[C]

What did you see?

[A]

I saw in addition to Peptides being all over the meeting in Hong Kong, another thing was a few artificial intelligence talks. And I saw this article related to that and how artificial intelligence and algorithms are driving the beauty towards a future of sameness. And so the notion here is that there's a worry by people in the industry that people are going to start using AI to figure out what our consumer needs and consumer wants. And then they're going to convert that into formulas and then they're going to ask the AIs to come up with the formulas and then all the formulas are going to be the same essentially. And we're Going to. There's a worry that we're going to get to in our industry to a point where the products are not differentiated at all except through marketing stories.

[C]

I would even beg to differ that they would be differentiated through marketing stories. I mean, I think people are kind of telling the same story, but with a different cast of characters or different language. Like, it's. I just don't feel that there's any even uniqueness in that. I was at a talk last night for the Southwest Society of Cosmetic Chemists on innovation, and, you know, the consensus was, oh, there's all these ways to be innovative. And I just. I feel like there's actually very rarely an opportunity to be innovative because we're all getting our information from the same places, and very little, if anything, fills a void.

[A]

I also think it's hard to be innovative in beauty because the technology isn't really changing that much. And any of the technology that does change, like, some of the activists that have come out and things, they aren't things that consumers really notice, like, immediately, maybe, maybe it's something you notice like six or 12 weeks later, but that as far as using the product in the moment, it's. You can't make your products stand out except in the area of fragrance or packaging or maybe some aesthetic feels. But, you know, ultimately, consumers aren't really good at noticing difference except in fragrance. They're really good at that. So it's been that way in our industry, though, before AI, like, when I got in the industry, it was like, what? People love products because of how it smelled, and they hated the same products if it smelled differently.

[C]

People also judge the same product differently by packaging and the brand story, the brand imagery, how it makes them feel. I mean, they may not realize it's the same product, but. But at the end of the day, like, the same or a pretty similar product could be inside. Like, I just. Maybe I'm jaded and a little too Perry Ified, but I don't know, I just don't feel like there's a whole.

[A]

Lot of uniqueness there I haven't seen. I mean, honestly, I got in the industry in the early 1990s, and the products are pretty much the same, right? I mean, there's more of a. Like a green natural story, although that was starting in the early 90s, but that's always just been a story anyway, as far as, you know, shampoos bubble up, they shampoo, your hair conditioners feel the same as they did back then, you know, and, you know, the technology, if you're in an industry where the technology doesn't change. The only new innovation you're going to get is marketing stories.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And those are usually just repeats. Right.

[C]

Speaking of marketing stories, we have some listener feedback. Oh, this isn't a marketing story. This is actually a really great little tidbit.

[A]

Yeah, well, no, that was a nice transition. Valerie, this is why you're a professional podcast.

[C]

It's, you know, it's late in the week. I had to DoorDash McDonald's, which is inherently humiliating.

[A]

Of course, now I want French. Now I want French fries. Well, let's cut some slack. This was an interesting comment from Melixa. I think she put this on Spotify. So if you want put comments in Spotify, like we read them. But she says, great show. I started as a Valerie, like, trying all the products. And after a few years of listening, my position about beauty products is halfway between a Valerie and a Perry. So it got me wondering, like, I wonder how much of our audience, you know, identifies more as a Valerie or a Perry.

[C]

Like, are they Team Valerie or Team Perry? I love it. It was like back when Twilight came out where you like Team Jacob or Team I forget the vampire's name. Jacob was the werewolf. Edward. Team Edward.

[A]

So, yeah, I, I think, you know, I kind of like the. The werewolf in that movie.

[C]

All right, I'll be Team Edward. It's okay.

[A]

Well, thank you for the comments. And then we did get another comment as a follow up to, you know, all that. Remember all the shenanigans going on in Australia about this testing house, that the.

[C]

Drama'S still going on.

[A]

Right, right. Well, Jules had to point out, she said, it seems that the US FDA was ahead of the Australian therapeutics goods administration when it came to the problem of sunscreens not being produced to their advertised levels. Because the FDA does not allow the Wild Child lab to export their products to the US and they haven't for several years now. That might be, though, because of the sunscreens that they're using. The US We've only approved a minimal number of sunscreen actives.

[C]

Right, Exactly. And I think there's also a lot of challenges with some of the sunscreens that have been launched. They don't meet their.

[B]

This is again, just, you know, what.

[C]

I've read online pattern, that this facility has a history of producing products that don't hit their targeted SPF value. So it sounds like the FDA is on it. I do know. It's actually really impressive, everyone. I mean, people think, you know, cosmetics are unregulated. But the FDA is very diligent about checking imports, particularly if the product contains colorants. They're militant about this. Yeah.

[A]

Or it's an over the counter drug like a sunscreen would be or has.

[C]

The potential to contain mercury if it's a skin lightener. Oh, they do test for that. They reject so many imports for that.

[A]

So if you ever hear somebody on the Internet saying, oh, the cosmetics industry in the United States is unregulated, that's just not true.

[C]

Not true.

[A]

You know it is true. The answers to the questions that we're going to do coming up. Our first question comes from Sarah. Sarah says hello. I was wondering if you could answer a very long time question I have regarding heat protectants. How long do heat protectants last? For example, if I have to blow dry my hair one day and use a heat protectant, but then two days too, I decide to curl my hair with a curling iron. Is the heat protectant from the day before still effective? Thank you very much for your help. And I would love to answer this for my salon and clients. You know, I will also say that, you know, I perused the Reddit hair science subreddit.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And on there a sort of a related question. Someone said if the same silicone is in a rinse out conditioner as a heat protectant spray, will they have the same effect? So let's, let's cover both of those. So the first, first one. Valerie, you've done a lot of work with these heat protectant.

[C]

I sure have.

[A]

In your former life and still do. What's your thoughts? How long do these things last?

[C]

It really depends what the heat protectant is. So if it is a film former or a polymer or silicone that has this inherent attraction to the hair, maybe it's positively charged and your damaged hair is negatively charged. It has a pretty good longevity. Amidimethicone is one great example of a silicone that does a lot of things, but it is really attracted to the hair and so and can remain on it over a couple of washes. Even so, not just a matter of days, but like washes. So if you have the right film former, the right silicone that's attracted to the hair, you can get lots of longevity and perhaps the heat protection will still be valid, presuming none of it has come off of the hair over that time. So it's really hard to say to answer, yes, like, oh sure, all heat protectants like kind of last a couple days because I just don't know what.

[A]

That is, it's going to really depend on the exposure that your hair had. If you treat your hair and then you don't go outside and you just sit there for two days in your house, I think it's going to continue to work. But you're going outside, your hair is blowing or you're putting on a hat or you're moving your hair and all of that is going to break that, that film, that continuous film. And so there's going to be gaps in it. And so every time you do that, that's going to reduce the potential for heat protection. And so maybe it could last a day or two. It's certainly going to last when you use it, but then maybe it could last another day, but I wouldn't imagine it's lasting much longer than that.

[C]

You know, my previous life we worked on a product that was called Reshape and we basically were able to prove that you it was a leave on, not a rinse off. You would put this cream on your hair and you could thermally style your hair. And then a couple days later said, nah, you know what, I don't want it straight anymore. I want it curly or vice versa. And you still got heat protection after the second application.

[A]

So that technology make it onto the market?

[C]

It did, but you know, I just, you know, I don't think it resonated for a multitude of reasons. I'm not sure the product is around anymore, but it was still a pretty cool concept. Maybe not maybe ahead of its time because I think consumers are just getting back into heat tools. Whereas like, you know, 15 years ago, like everyone used a flat iron on their hair.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I think there was a time when people worried about build up. And you know, these silicones, if they're on your hair, they could build up. So.

[C]

But they're building up to do their job, guys. So don't freak out.

[A]

They are, they are. And they also wash out over time. So it's not like they build up forever. Right? Yeah. Your hair is not going to turn into a big crayon or something.

[C]

Oh my gosh. But bottom line, I probably would reapply. And you don't have to reapply with the same same product. You could for example, use like a spray that applies some heat protectant just to fortify it, just to be sure. Because he is so damaging. It's just better to be safer than sorry.

[A]

So on that other question, say, so say you have a shampoo or a conditioner with ammo dimethicone in it. Is that going to give you the same heat protection as a heat protectant spray?

[C]

I mean, it depends on the level and it depends on what other ingredients are present. It's really hard to say. So again, I just always like to err on the side of caution. If you're going to apply heat, use a product that is designated for protecting your hair from heat. Yeah, I would just even, you know, if you're using a rinse out, supplement it with a leave on. A leave on is like the best way to get protection.

[A]

I mean, I think in general, the conditioning that you're going to get and the protection you're going to get from something that you rinse out not going to be nearly as potent as something that you spray into your hair and you leave into the hair. So I think the answer to, in my view, the answer is going to be no. Just because they have the same ingredient doesn't mean you're going to get the same protection. Mostly because you don't have the same level of ingredient. At the end of the day, like when you spray it on, you get a lot more of that protective silicone on than when you use a leave on or use a rinse out conditioner. And it just washes away. Some of a lot of it'll just wash away.

[B]

Exactly. Well, our next question comes to us from Mimi. Hi, Valerie and Perry, I absolutely love your show. I've worked in the beauty industry for over 15 years and your podcast is.

[C]

By far the most informative and fact.

[B]

Based resource I've come across. I truly consider you both my go to for trustworthy science backed information.

[A]

Oh, thanks. Well, you know, we try.

[B]

Lately I've been getting a lot of Instagram ads about a red light therapy device called Luna which is being compared to Omnilux. I remember Valerie mentioning in one of.

[C]

Your episodes that red light therapy has decades of research behind it.

[B]

But I'd love to hear your thoughts specifically on the comparison being made between these two brands. Is the information in these ads accurate and do you think there's a meaningful difference between Luna and Omnilux in terms of efficacy, safety or technology? I've attached a video they're using in the comparison case in case it's helpful for reference. Thank you so much for all you do. And in the show notes, we've put the same link to that video.

[A]

All right, what's your thoughts on that? You see the video?

[B]

Well, it certainly is compelling. So you have this sheet of vinyl, the guy puts two masks on it and the vinyl is sensitive to presumably red light, hopefully. And one mask creates a ton of illumination and the other mask hardly illuminates at all. And so the guy is like, I know what mask. I'm going with the one that really lit up this vinyl. And my question is, I guess how do we know that the vinyl only reacted to red light and didn't react to all these other wavelengths of light in the spectrum? And so in my mind it's like, yeah, it might be putting, putting out more of a frequency, but it might not be red light frequency. Which by the way, you know, when these light therapies are studied, they're studied at very specific frequencies. It's not a broad spectrum visible light. And so I would question like what the purity is of either of the light sources and maybe even what the vinyl is sensitive to. It's really eye catching. But I don't think it tells us that the whole story.

[A]

I looked into it a little bit. It says like the Omnilux is basically been in this space for a long time. And so their current home use line, the Omnilux, it uses a red light at 633 nanometers and then it uses near infrared at 830. And so then you use it for a 10 minute session. So it has some science behind it. And as far as the red lights go, there is at least from dermatology standpoint. The dermatology has concluded that these things can help with mildly with like mild photo aging, but the effects are not dramatic and the protocols for how these things work are all over the place. So there have been review papers on that. So it's hard to say if any specific mass is going to have the results that you saw in research.

[B]

Exactly. But I still, I'm just going back to this guy's experiment. Yes, These experiments are like, oh my God, look at that. But I mean, this experiment probably isn't even credible from a rigorous standpoint.

[A]

Right, right. It's a matter of dose and how much energy is put out at the time. So I mean, ultimately they could, one could say use this for 10 minutes and you get this X dose. The other ones say use this for 20 minutes and you get X dose. So maybe the guy's just not. It seems like a whole big marketing thing. Right. And they're just trying to show that they're better and they're. I think they're trying to trick up the results.

[B]

Yeah. But I don't know.

[A]

So what's the bottom line here? Do you think one is better than the other based on this experiment.

[B]

Bottom line, based on the this experiment, I actually do not think one is better than the other and I actually think one could be worse than the other other, depending on what is causing this vinyl to change. But that being said, I honestly would just look at consumer reviews and on top of that, I would look at one you're actually going to use. Because some of these devices aren't a good consumer experience. When you're talking about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Adoptiveness and your ability to use them every day. If one is not very comfortable and you say, I really hate using it, you're not going to use it every day. It takes a lot of dedication and discipline to dedicate time to put this mask on. Whereas if you're going to use a mask and use it every day, even if it's not as effective in one use, the fact that you're going to use it every day because it's more comfortable could mean something different. So just in those theoretics, I guess I would say read the reviews and look at comfort level.

[A]

Yeah. And I think as far as what you're going to notice, I really think it's hard to notice anything using these red lights anyway that you'll notice a difference between two similar ones.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I doubt it. I guess the Omnilux is the one who's been around for a while and this Luna Skin is the new kid, startup kid. And so that's why you're seeing this. They're trying to knock off the. The established industry leader with some not really any new technology, just some new marketing. So, you know, if one's less expensive than the other, you might as well try that anyway. Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Our next question comes to us from Lisa. Hi, beauty brains. Love your podcast. Can you tell me why the Rich Cream by Augustina Biter is so expensive? And if there's something else out there that comes close, I do love it, but not the price. Thank you, Lisa. Also, love the cat talk. My rescue kitty, Aloe, turns 17 this month.

[B]

Hello to Aloe.

[A]

Look at that. We just talked in the news about this Augustina Bader Prolik and now it comes up in here. What are the odds of that?

[B]

Well, you know, now I kind of feel bad that I said I didn't like the crap cream, but it does come down to preference. I just thought it was a little too heavy for me and I can usually kind of tolerate some heavy stuff, but it, you know, could work for some people in terms of the user experience. So I'm glad, Lisa, you're enjoying the Aesthetics of it.

[A]

Well, let's get to the price. So just talking about expensive products and cheap products in general, why would one formula be a lot more expensive than another?

[B]

Well, I think primarily what you're paying for is the brand image. And so it could be where the brand wants to be seen. Like what kind of price point do they want to be seen at? Because if you're charging $305 for 1.7 ounces or $190 for an ounce of a night cream, that's pretty expensive. Right? So automatically people are going to be like, wow, this is a luxury product. It looks lux, that there's, you know, copper and navy blue packaging. It has a, a science driven technology positioning with lots of clinical studies and it was by this German doctor. And you know, it has all of the things that give the brand this really premium price point justification. And so honestly, you may be paying a lot for that. You probably are. And they're not using inexpensive packaging. Everything is really custom, it's really beautiful. And that does cost money. But when it comes to the cost per ounce of the cream, you might have an expensive formula. And I would guess based on how heavy this cream is, that it's not an inexpensive facial lotion for sure.

[A]

But it's not $500 for, you know, an ounce. You know, it's. No, it's even if it's double the price of like, I don't know, an Olay or something like that.

[B]

Yeah. Let's think of it this way. Just from a cost per ounce point of view, it's $190 per ounce. And let's say the true cost of the cream is 30% of that, just as a rule of thumb. Okay, that's like saying the product cost $57 per ounce, including all the packaging and all that kind of of stuff. But then like Times that by 16, that's $912 a pound. A pound.

[A]

There's no way it's gonna cost that much to make.

[B]

It's probably not even $50 a pound.

[A]

Right. I think you can make this product for less than $10 a pound.

[B]

I think that's fair. I would say it probably costs between 7 and 10.

[A]

So the thing causing the cost of it is most likely not the cost of the ingredients. So often it's the marketing. Sometimes it's the ingredients. If you use a special ingredient that could kick up the price. I know some ceramides would be like $1,000 a pound for a ceramide. And if you use it at A high level.

[B]

Well, Perry, did I ever tell you about the time I had a brand they really wanted a specific ceramide they wanted to work with. And so Evonik is a premier ceramide producer. They produce a lot of them and, and a lot of them are produced through fermentation and synthetic chemistries. And the price came back at guess what per kilo for this ceramide?

[A]

Well, if it's a kilo, I mean, it's got to be like 1500 a kilo.

[B]

$1 million. What?

[C]

Come on, really?

[B]

I swear on my life.

[A]

Million dollars. That reminds me of that. What? Austin Powers. One million.

[B]

I swear. And I was just like, this is a price that tells me you don't want people to get it. And they were like, no, this, this one, like the synthesis root is extremely difficult. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But keep in mind, a ceramide you're only going to add at like 0.1% max. I mean, you can really feel a difference on skin with that minute level of ceramides. They're very tactilely effective at low use levels. So.

[A]

Yeah, so in some cases the ingredient can, but in the vast majority of cases, it's going to be the marketing position. It's like, you know, why does a Kate Spade purse cost more than something you get at Target?

[B]

Well, I mean, there's a little bit of tailoring difference between a Kate Spade and a Target from Sperry.

[A]

I mean, but as far as you using it is kind of the same, right? Right.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Get out of here.

[A]

It's not the same.

[B]

It is. It's not the same, but.

[A]

I know, but like, they're both purses, right? No.

[B]

Anyway, why don't we take a look at the ingredients in this product to see if it's anything special to write home about. So we have some emollients, Coco caprylate cap rate, which is a very spreadable thin emollient. Very nice sunflower oil, which is one of the cheapest oils you could put into a product. But it feels very nice. I don't want to be like it's cheap. I mean, it does feel great on skin. It's high in oleic acid, so it has a lot of skin penetration capability. But it's, you know, it's not like the most expensive oil in the world. Squalane, we have argan oil, ethyl oleate, which is a very rich ester. Avocado oil is a very unctuous oil. And then we start getting into to the emulsifier polyglycerol 4 oleate, a little magnesium sulfate, and then we probably get into some of the smaller quantities found.

[A]

In the product preservatives and then marketing stuff. Although palmidyl tripeptide 8 is at the end.

[B]

Well, you actually. I don't want to say that that's a problem because you actually don't use peptides at very high levels either. They actually have a very, very low active use level. But that being said, you still don't.

[C]

Know where it's at.

[B]

Like, did they put it in at Fairy Dust, or did they put it in at a clinically tested level? Because all their clinical testing is done on that finished product. It's not done with the peptide versus without the peptide. Right. So for example.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The appearance of forehead wrinkles reduced by 37%. That's just the cream as a whole. Yeah. Hydration improvement 2.4 times. Well, the cream has a ton of glycerin in it. Right.

[A]

I mean, if you just cut the ingredient list after, say, zinc PCA or the butylene glycol, I even think zinc.

[B]

PCA is probably half a percent.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But I'm saying that's not an expensive formula. It only gets expensive if you say these peptides are in at a really.

[B]

Significant and cost thousands of dollars.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But these ingredients, other, other ingredients, I mean, these are pretty standard, run the mill skincare ingredients.

[B]

Well, Lisa, I'm sorry the news isn't better. If you love the cream, keep using it. If you're like, well, you know, I don't love it. $305. Love it. Then I would check out the Dua Lipa products that just dropped.

[A]

And using the new technology. The same technology.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Try it out.

[B]

Our fourth question comes to us from last, Laura, a patron on Patreon. Hi, Valerie and Perry. Thanks for all that you do. My dermatologist told me to use tend skin from Amazon after I shave or wax to prevent itching and ingrown hairs. The first ingredient is isopropyl alcohol, and it also contains acetyl salicylic acid. So far, it works okay for me. But I was wondering when this is used up, could I just use rubbing alcohol as a cheaper alternative? Keep up the great work.

[A]

This is the tend skin solution that you can get at Walgreens. So all of the ingredients include isopropyl alcohol, butylene glycol, acetylsalicylic acid, cyclomethicone glycerin, diglycine and. No diglycerin, and polysorbent 80. So it's pretty. It's a pretty simple formula. It runs $20 for 4 ounces. How much does rubbing alcohol run?

[B]

Like a dollar for many ounces.

[A]

Yeah, so. So if you do what she suggests, just use isopropyl alcohol. What you are missing is the humectants. You're missing the butylene glycol, you're missing the cyclomethicone, the glycerin. So it's definitely going to be a feel difference. And you're also missing the acetylsylic salicylic acid, which I guess it's in there as what?

[B]

I think it's an exfoliating agent.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. So you're missing that. So you're gonna miss a bunch of stuff in there.

[B]

Not only does salicylic acid exfoliate though, but it is oil soluble or oily soluble and it does go into your pores and help mitigate an irritation cascade. It even works at a neutral pH. So honestly, you could just pick up a basic salicylic acid product and it probably would do the same.

[A]

Right. But I. I gotta say, I don't think it's a suitable substitute just using rubbing alcohol.

[B]

No, no, you definitely need some of the other pieces. I can't believe this product is $20.

[A]

Really? I mean, you think you could make it for less than 20?

[B]

I think we could, yeah. I mean, I'm just saying.

[A]

We'Re going to start funding the podcast by our own versions, knockoff versions of stuff, which is way exciting.

[B]

Yeah, we'll call it Duped because you got duped and we're going to make a dupe.

[A]

We're just kidding, by the way, because we couldn't do that and then maintain our integrity as commenters on beauty product. I think it's a challenge if you have your own beauty products to unbiasedly talk about other people's products. It's just. Maybe some people can do it. I just.

[B]

Well, no, you're right. I mean, it's exactly why we don't have our own line. Although a few people have approached me and said it would be really clutch if you guys had your own hair care line.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I did a haircare line before and, and it's good products, but it's just. That's not the kind of business I want to be in. I just want to know how to make them and talk about them. I don't want to actually have to sell them.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Guess we have one more question. This comes to us from Sarah. Sarah says hello. I love your podcast and I wanted to ask you guys about a product. Drunk Elephant Wonderwild Balm. Will the antioxidants in this product absorb into the skin or do they just stay. Stay on top? Thanks. So looking at the Wonder Wild balm starts. So it's an anhydrous formula. There's not really any water in it so that makes it a balm. And we got the Sclerocara Berea seed oil.

[B]

That's marula oil. No, you didn't say, you didn't say that. Right. You said it close.

[A]

Coconut oil. Oh yeah. You know I just, I can read letters but sometimes they don't go together. Right. Coconut oil. We have vegetable oil. So lots of oil. Pumpkin oil, pumpkin seed oil. You know I was like eating pumpkin seeds around Halloween time.

[B]

I love pumpkin soup, pumpkin everything. I love it.

[A]

You love the fall shea butter. So you know, these are all pretty much oils as far as the antioxidants go. Where are the antioxidants in here?

[B]

You know, I'm gonna guess that they accuse these oils of being antioxidant rich and.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

I studied oils a lot in my previous life and you know, I just. Certain butters, certain oils can be rich in antioxidants, typically vitamin E, rarely vitamin A. But there's just not enough in them in my opinion to make a difference on skin. They're usually there to help keep the oil stable and they get consumed over the shelf life of the oil or if you've done any like heat processing of the oil, they get consumed in that way. So in my opinion, you know, I'm not sure where the antioxidants incidents are, but these are really great oils for skin. They're high in oleic acid, high in linoleic and linolenic acids. You're getting all the omegas. I really like shea butter.

[C]

It.

[B]

Shea butter is typically high in triterpene content which is a molecule that's really essential for anti inflammatory pathways in skin.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Huge shea butter fan. Love mango seed butter for this lip, but I just don't know. I wouldn't like call this an antioxidant butter.

[A]

Yeah. But if there are antioxidants in there and there's nothing obvious but maybe in the oils there is. They're not going to get down deeper in the skin. I think they're going to stay on top which is where these oils pretty much stay on top. These oils don't penetrate very deeply. They stay in the stratum Corneum, the outer layers. And so it's unlikely. So to answer the question, do the antioxidants, if there are any in here, absorb into the skin, or do they stay on top? And pretty much I'd say they're gonna stay on top. And what I mean by that is, you know, you could rub your skin, and it'll go into the sternum corneum, so it'll look like it's going into your skin. It's not just gonna stay on the outer layer, but when I'm talking about outer layer of skin, I'm talking about that first 15 layers of dead skin, skin cells, which is your stratum corneum. So if it stays in there, it's. That's the top of the skin. It's not getting down into the body.

[B]

It looks like a nice product, like.

[C]

A really rich ointment. I would give it a try.

[B]

I love marula oil. It's one of my favorite oils. It's one of the oils I've studied extensively.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know a lot about it on a chemical level.

[A]

Peanut butter and oil.

[B]

Well, there's peanut oil, right?

[A]

And there's butter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Together.

[B]

Peanut oil is actually also a very nice oil, but the prop, especially for hair. But the problem is it can contain a little protein residue. I mean, people can be highly allergic to it. So that's a challenge.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also, it is hard to get peanut butter with a low olfactive profile.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So it smells a little nutty.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think I said peanut butter. But it's hard to get peanut oil with a low olfactive profile. So, yeah, smells a little nutty. I once had a project where the peanut people were like, we have to use peanut oil. Has to be the basis of this hair oil. And I was like, this is an odor challenge we cannot overcome.

[A]

You know, that does remind me once, many years ago, I did an experiment where I only ate nuts for an entire week.

[C]

What happened?

[A]

My stomach felt a little weird, but I did lose a little weight.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

You were, like, the coolest person ever. I'm just like.

[A]

I did learn that peanuts are not actually a nut. They are a legume.

[B]

That is true. I think we've learned that in elementary school.

[A]

Speaking of legume, do you hear that music?

[C]

Oh, gosh. Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, head over.

[A]

To Apple Pod, Apple Awful Podcast, Apple.

[B]

Podcasts, or Spotify, and leave us a review that's going to help other people.

[C]

Find the show and ensure we have.

[B]

A full docket of beauty Questions to answer.

[A]

Speaking of questions, if you have one, you can just record your question on your smartphone and then email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com that we can get your voice on the show. Or you can leave it in our form on the show notes in the episode, or you can call our phone number, which Valerie has the jingle that she was singing.

[B]

1-872-216-1856.

[A]

Yeah, okay. You probably just look in the show notes for that.

[C]

You know, Mr.

[B]

Cosmetic Chemists is in the music industry.

[C]

And he actually works in copyright administration.

[B]

And I wonder if I'm gonna get hit with a lawsuit because I use someone's melody. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. You were only close to the melody. I don't know.

[C]

Only close.

[B]

I'm offended.

[A]

Hey, you know who's not offended? The beauty brains who support us on Patreon. If you like what we do and you appreciate that we aren't trying to hawk products and. Or. Or sell somebody else's products, but the show does cost money to run. So if you want to support what we do to do it without ads, go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. You also get a transcript of the show, and your questions get a higher priority than everyone else's. And we also sometimes will drop in special little things just for Patreon.

[C]

Also, don't forget to follow us on.

[B]

Our social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X worth of beauty Brains on Blue sky worth the beauty brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok, and a YouTube.

[A]

Yeah, we started putting the show on YouTube. So if you just want to listen to us in the background and maybe someday we'll even do actual video of us, because we actually do record video, but then that means we have to, like, shower before the show.

[C]

So.

[A]

Yeah, I have a hard time with that.

[B]

We're not doing that. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone.

[C]

And remember, be brainy about your beauty.

[A]

Thanks, everyone. Kittens.