← The Beauty Brains
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 419. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski. Hi, Perry.
- [00:28]
B
Hello, Valerie. Great to see you.
- [00:30]
A
Good to see you. We have a lot of stuff to cover on today's show, including. Are there hydrogen peroxide free glosses for hair? Is retinaldehyde better than Adapalene for treating wrinkles? What are our thoughts on cosmetics in terracotta containers? Are oils or water better for locking in moisture to hair? And finally, how do you start your own skincare line? But first, that chit chat.
- [00:55]
B
Valerie, I just got back from a vacation in Mexico, which, you know, it always happens to me when I go near the equator.
- [01:03]
A
You get bitten by sand mites. Oh, no, wait, that's the beach I did.
- [01:07]
B
Well, no, I was on the beach and such. We were in near Puerto Vallarta, so a place called San Pancho, which is very cool. But yeah, I got bit up and now I'm just looking at my face on this video here and I get this big red mark because some bug bit me on my chin.
- [01:24]
A
I thought you were picking a zit.
- [01:26]
B
No, that's not acne. That's a bug bite.
- [01:28]
A
Oh, no, those bugs love you.
- [01:31]
B
They do. And of course my legs are all bitten up and. And you know what else happened to me? When I go traveling, I will just like eat whatever. So I ordered this taco. It came with pickled onions on it and it had some tuna, which was. I guess it was like sushi grade tuna or something. Anyway, I was sick as a dog the next day, puking my guts up and they're like, oops, I guess I shouldn't hate that.
- [01:58]
A
Yeah, seafood can be a little questionable depending on where you go and whatnot. I tend to pass.
- [02:04]
B
Yeah, usually it should be cooked right.
- [02:08]
A
Yeah, that's probably better.
- [02:11]
B
I'm actually going to India next week. I'm doing a talk out there in a place called. I think it's Japur.
- [02:18]
C
It's called.
- [02:19]
B
Called the Pink City.
- [02:20]
A
Okay.
- [02:20]
B
Anyway, I just got a text from my mother in law. She's like, oh, make sure you don't eat anything there. Like you can get sick. I'm like, I know about getting sick on traveling.
- [02:31]
A
Isn't there a song from the 70s, like don't drink the water, something like that?
- [02:37]
B
There probably is. Or probably should be. Cause I drank the water one time in. I think I was in Bangkok. Talk about. I was sick for like four days. That was rough. So people, the bottom line here, people, when you're traveling. Yeah. Think about what you're eating and drinking.
- [02:52]
A
Yeah. Especially if it's a little bit different than what you're used to. Well, my world is revolving around the super bowl right now. And this is because Mr. Cosmetic Chemist is a Patriots fan, which makes Baby C a de facto Patriots fan. And honestly, it's really quite disgusting. I thought life was going to be different when Tom Brady finally retired. And for a little bit, it was because the dynasty was over. And, you know, nothing against Tom Brady, I. He actually is a really intelligent person, talented, has several businesses. Like, I watched his documentary. I have a lot of respect for him. But sure, it put a tough place in our marriage because basically it was me, Mr. Cosmetic Chemist, and Tom for a long time. And now the Patriots are good again and it's just consuming our lives.
- [03:46]
B
I'm curious. Cause Tom Brady left the Patriots and he went to the Buccaneers, I believe.
- [03:53]
A
Correct.
- [03:53]
B
So did your husband's allegiances follow him to the Buccaneers?
- [03:58]
A
Well, at the core, he was still a Patriots fan, but at the end of the day, he's a Tom Brady fan as well. Gotcha. And that's the only person aside from Jimmy Garoppolo, who also was a Patriots a backup quarterback for A while, that Mr. Cosmetic Chemist said if I had to have a celebrity cheat, those two people are perfectly fine.
- [04:17]
B
Oh, even the backup quarterback. Wow.
- [04:22]
A
Well, just Jimmy Garoppolo. Not the, not the current ones.
- [04:25]
B
Sure. He's a good looking man, apparently.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah. But in other, other news, that aside, I'm just mostly excited about the snacks as well as the commercials for the Super Bowl.
- [04:36]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [04:36]
A
Yep. We have a homemade kitchen, queso and nacho game going on and Baby C is going to, you know, he's eating solids and he's, you know, very fat. So he's very excited for that. I'm sure he will be, but I just had to get a new computer and I'm pretty sad because I. I'm not tied to color per se, but when I went to the store, they, you know, I picked out the model I needed for work and I, you know, I said, oh, give it to me in silver. And they said, we only have the black models and stuff.
- [05:07]
B
Oh, no.
- [05:08]
A
And I said, I don't care about color, but I actually haven't even opened it yet because I'm just like how am I gonna feel?
- [05:17]
B
You know, I will say I had silver, my last one. And now I have black now.
- [05:23]
A
And how are you doing? I'm just worried about fingerprints and smudges. I can't handle that. Constantly having to polish the fingerprinted metal.
- [05:32]
B
I don't have that problem. I don't notice it. And I am kind of one of those. I don't like smudges. So I am sort of fingerprint polisher. So it doesn't. At least the one I got. Maybe I got the matte finish or something.
- [05:45]
A
So also, what are people gonna think of me? Are they gonna think anything or nothing?
- [05:50]
B
No, people don't think of you. That's one thing I've learned in life is nobody thinks of you except your mother in law when you're traveling to India. But mostly people don't think of you.
- [06:01]
A
I just don't want people to think I am attached to color. Cause I'm just like, oh, give it to me in the standard issue silver, right? My phone. Give it to me in the standard issue color. I don't need a flashy case or anything. And now I'm just like, if it's black, I have to get a case.
- [06:15]
B
You know, as I was growing up, I have these things where you identify yourself as, oh, I'm this type of person that. So when I was getting a car, I was like, I am definitely not a BMW person.
- [06:28]
A
But.
- [06:28]
B
Which is exactly why I got a BMW. Cause I don't want. I'm not a BMW person. But I got one because I'm not. See, I do it ironically.
- [06:38]
A
You drive a BMW? I definitely never pictured that.
- [06:42]
B
No, of course not. Cause it's obviously not a car I would drive, which is why I drive it.
- [06:47]
A
Oh, my gosh. Well, do you know what the real reason I'm having trouble with the black is? I'm having terrible flashbacks to my corporate America days where I had a black Dell and it just like gives me black Dell vibes. And I'm thinking of like, you know, I would get a few hundred emails a day and, you know, I had to work many hours a day. And I'm kind of like, I want to return it and deal with my terrible laptop until I can get a silver one. So I don't have those PTSD moments.
- [07:18]
B
Well, you know, you got to do things that make you feel good. You know, that's why people buy $300 skin creams. Even. Even though the $21 would work perfectly fine.
- [07:27]
A
But what kind. What kind of car do you Picture me driving. Maybe not a brand, but like a type.
- [07:33]
B
Well, I know that you once had a Tesla, so that sort of colored my world, but I would just put you like in a Volvo or an Acura or something. Or is it an Acura? No, it's. What's the other? A1. You know, I'm really into cars.
- [07:48]
A
You know, Audi.
- [07:50]
B
Audi, that's the one.
- [07:51]
A
Yeah. I do like German cars, but not, not BMWs or Mercedes. Now I meant more like gas, electric, hybrid.
- [07:59]
B
Oh, I think you're, I think you're a hybrid person.
- [08:03]
A
I definitely had a Prius for many years until I was hit in a head on collision.
- [08:07]
B
Oh no.
- [08:08]
A
But yeah, I drive electric. Hence, hence the Tesla. I don't have the Tesla anymore. Long story short, I don't have it anymore. But yeah, I'm an electric car girl now.
- [08:17]
B
Well, I think my next car will be electric. But. But it is strange. In Texas that is a little harder to be electric. In Texas.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah, they're not super friendly to that. Whereas in California like everyone had one and here it's like not too many. But if you ever need any advice, let me know. I know a lot about electric vehicles. I'm kind of into them.
- [08:39]
B
Well, I'm looking forward to that. But I'm, you know, I'm a few years away from getting a car. I just got Wakar 10 years ago. All right, shall we move on? Do we got any beauty news?
- [08:56]
A
Well, we don't have any news, but we actually got some feedback from one of our listeners. And it happened to be one of the scientists that worked on the Pantene Abundant and Strong Collection.
- [09:12]
B
Wow. Well, it's so nice that, you know, she's listening to the show and said she was a fan too and she clarified some of the stuff. So we talked about this. I think it was episode four, 17 perhaps. So two episodes ago it was the Pantene Abundant and Strong Line. And I think what we were, you know, we were a little skeptical of it and pointing some stuff out and she filled in some information.
- [09:39]
A
Well, yeah, I don't think we were skeptical about it. I think what we did is we looked at the info and I had mentioned, you know, I'd been following some of their research on the different complexes that they have over the many years and we just didn't have all the data. Right. So it's hard when little bits of information are published here and there and maybe it doesn't give all the full details. For example, what was the control formula and what was that tested and sometimes that you just don't get all of that in a paper or because we don't work on the Pantene brand, we're not privy to everything. So I actually was really grateful to have all of these moments clarified.
- [10:18]
B
Yeah. So they said, in fact, one of our criticisms, I guess, was that we didn't know the placebo control. And we assume that they sort of as. As is done in the cosmetic industry, you kind of trick up the results. So your placebo is not. I mean, it's still a shampoo. It's just not your good shampoo. And the thing you tested against is your premium shampoo and the Actives and such. And so we assume they were doing that, which is kind of industry standard pract. But according to this, they said they did not do that. They actually use the exact same shampoo, just without the Actives.
- [10:55]
A
Yeah, that's really great to see. As well. They also. One of my criticisms, and it wasn't really a criticism, it was just a comment, was that they attributed the hair loss due to a reduction in breakage, which is very common. And it is very common because if you say it stops hair loss, that actually would be a drug claim. And so it's usually attributed to breakage because of that regulatory type consideration. But the listener mentioned that they actually. Yes, that's what they did look at for the conditioner, but they looked at the shampoo and scalp serum a little bit differently. In some of the clinical studies, they actually looked at both the root and isolated some hairs from the root so that they could exclude breakage, contribution to hair retention data. And we're able to do that quite effectively.
- [11:51]
B
Yeah. And so given this extra context, you know, maybe there's more here than we had suggested, or at least I had suggested. I don't remember exactly what we said all the time, but, you know, this still feels to me like a product. I mean, Pantene shampoo conditioner, they're great shampoos. You know, Somebody once on LinkedIn asked me if I had to pick one shampoo, which is it? And I can't say Tresemme. And I said, pantene.
- [12:26]
A
You did? That person was me. Only because actually this was a news article. We both were interviewed for Women's Health magazine about sulfates and hair care. And we were kind of alone in that. Sulfates are totally fine. There was another problem, developer and dermatologist who said, no, they're not fine. But given our expertise in hair, and I'm a little biased, I kind of believe us because that's, you know, sulfates are fine.
- [12:54]
B
Well, you know, also, I think one of the things that a lot of like commenters or derms or people miss that we have experience with and exposure to is consumer testing. And this actually does tie into this Pantene product because I've made products and put it out with hundreds of consumers and had them test them and use them and answer questions about them. And I am just flabbergasted all the times at how bad they are at noticing differences or how easily they're tricked by what a fragrance is or what the packaging is, and they're just not reliable. So I see a product like the abundant and strong and they present a plausible story. But at the end of the day, the consumer's not going to notice a difference between this and a similarly fragranced Pantene product without the active. So if you're spending extra money for a product like this, you're not going to notice a difference, in my personal opinion, because that's what consumers notice. And it's not much. It's hard to be good at noticing differences in shampoos and it's, you know, you're not going to notice huge differences when there's just extracts added and stuff.
- [14:12]
A
Well, where I was going is I'm still surprised that like, there's this sulfates conversation still going on because it's so 30 years ago. And sulfates are fine for, for your skin when formulated appropriately. But the Pantene product, the abundant and strong shampoo that does have the good clinical data where the information we were lacking was provided to us by email, is a sulfated system and so perfectly fine.
- [14:42]
B
I know, like the best shampoo, best selling shampoos are all sulfates. But I think this is the reason why you still have sulfate free and such, because sulfates got sort of a bad reputation with salons. And in my personal opinion, it's too convince people not to buy drugstore products. They had to come up with some, you know, boogeyman ingredient, and that was sulfates or it was silicones or something like that. And that gives you a reason not to spend money on a drugstore product, but rather spend it on a salon brand that's not using sulfates.
- [15:19]
A
Well, the salon world especially hates Pantene. And Panthenol has also become a boogeyman type product ingredient, not necessarily Panthenol itself, but, you know, the overall residue left on hair. And remember, Pantene tried to battle that myth of buildup on the hair because it doesn't but anyway, yeah, I really appreciated the write in and the clarification and you know, we're a Pantene believer, you know, you know, we just love it. And I love panthenol. Even though I, I'm still floored that you don't believe panthenol works.
- [15:54]
B
You know that that was actually my favorite part from this email we received. She ended with quotes. And Valerie, I'm with you as a panthenol fan.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah, thank you.
- [16:05]
B
Yeah. Perry, There are two things, two ingredients of Valerie and Perry, Perry or me don't always see eye diet. It's vitamin C and panthenol.
- [16:16]
A
Right. And peptides. Proteins.
- [16:18]
B
Oh yeah, peptides. That's right. Peptides and proteins. How are we even doing this show?
- [16:23]
A
Yeah, I don't even know you. Oh my goodness. Okay, well, let's head over to our beauty questions.
- [16:34]
B
By the way, we got a few audio questions, but this one's not. So the first one comes from Melissa who is a patron. Thank you, Melissa. She says, I have a question. Are there clear colorless gloss products that don't have a developer like a hydrogen peroxide? And if they don't need to impart color, why do they have a developer? As an example is the Kristin S bestseller colorless signature hair gloss by Crystal Quartz. And she lists the ingredients. They have a developer and then they have the gloss. Would love to know what this really does. And does the peroxide get the conditioning ingredients into the hair or maybe just clarifies. Thanks for the awesome podcast. Okay, so this is a two step product. The Kristen Est colorless signature hair gloss.
- [17:21]
A
Correct. And it's actually the same base as their dyed products. So if you're looking to tone your hair or dye it, this is the same base just without the dyes. And the reason they would sell a dyeless product is it is positioned as a hair gloss. This Kriscan ess product is available at Target and mass market stores. But the price product format is actually based off of a salon professional style liquid hair color. And so when you go to the salon and you're getting your hair colored or anything, they'll say, hey, can we tone your hair, make it look really glossy and shiny. And if you don't dye your hair, maybe they'll just put a dylus gloss and ask if you want a glossing service. And what it is is it's a gloss base. They mix it with the hydrogen peroxide developer. It goes from a liquid consistency to a gel consistency and the gel is what sits on your hair so it doesn't drip. And so Melissa is exactly correct. If it's not imparting color, why would it need a developer? And the developer isn't doing anything to the hair other than helping the product go from a liquid to. To a gel so it doesn't drip.
- [18:40]
B
So the reaction, the hydrogen peroxide reaction is not reacting with the hair as like normal developers do. Right. It's actually reacting with the gloss ingredients. What. What ingredients are reacting there? The what, the ethanolamine.
- [18:54]
A
Well, it's actually not reacting. Hydrogen peroxide isn't the important piece. It's the water in the hydrogen peroxide. So essentially it creates a. A reaction within the base ingredients to. To cause it to gel up instantly upon exposure with the water. Now, the one thing the hydrogen peroxide is doing is interacting with the hair fiber and creating light negative charges on it. And so that theoretically would help cause an increase in deposition of conditioning agents. But really, I think it's just built this way because they have other colored products in the line, and it's just easier than putting water in a bottle, essentially. So it's just the way the product is kitted out.
- [19:39]
B
I get it. Yeah. It's sort of the efficiencies of production for the people making this. Right. It's just when you're making a new product, it's easy to just make the same product, but just take one color. Take the color out, but.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah, exactly. So they'll get tons of developer units produced and they get separated into the different kits and the cost differentials, like, really negligible. So that's what's happening. You could actually use water and probably get the same result.
- [20:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. The bottom line is it's not really making the conditioning ingredients go into the hair more, as you said, that they're going to work the way they work.
- [20:16]
A
Well, our next question comes to us from Tori, a patron, and it's an audio question.
- [20:22]
B
All right. Yeah. She actually says, first time Patreon question Submitter. I'm working my way through your back catalog, so if you. You've already answered this question, I apologize for the duplicate, and please let me know the episode number. So before we get to the question, I just want to address that. We're happy to answer questions we've answered before. I think our view on things sometimes can change over time. So we might not have exactly the same thoughts we had some years ago if we covered a question, and there might be some new research and stuff. So we. We often will cover a question that has been asked before. I Think we've covered the what that ion hair dryers a few times. Nothing's changed there but we're happy to cover questions because you know, not everybody is going to go through our back catalog. So anyway, here's her question regarding retinal versus Adapalene for anti aging.
- [21:18]
C
Hi beauty brains. My name is Tori and I love the show. I appreciate all you guys do to bring good information to consumers. My question is about using retinol vs retinal vs tretinoin vs adapalene for anti aging concerns. Currently I've been using Differin gel over the counter which is adapalene at a 0.1% concentration for skin benefits. I don't have much acne right now, but I have some signs of aging that I'm trying to prevent. And I'm wondering now that I'm seeing more retinal coming onto the market with different brands whether it's beneficial to switch to retinal for anti aging concerns rather than continuing with the Adapalene. I see people say, oh, you know, tretinoin is the gold standard for anti aging and I did try tretinoin in the past but it's a bit too harsh for my skin. I had too many side effects. And I'm also not interested in seeking out a prescription for skincare. I'd rather use something that I can just buy from the store. I guess my basic question is do you think that the difference in skin receptors that's targeted by things like retinals, retinols, tretinoin versus Adapalene makes much difference in anti aging or is there evidence to suggest that the Adapalene works for pretty well for anti aging. Thank you guys, love the show. Bye.
- [22:45]
B
Thanks for that question. Tori, Valerie, you're like an Adapalene fan or you use Adapalene.
- [22:52]
A
Well, I have rosacea so I don't use any retinoids on my skin. But I'm a believer that they work because any retinoid essentially comes from the pharmaceutical industry for acne fighting and they work. I mean if it's a prescription product, there's some proven efficacy, the side effects are well understood and you can get an understanding over use in time of off label benefits. And that's exactly what has happened with the retinoic acid materials is they were prescribed for acne, they saw an anti aging benefit and so now certain versions are used for anti aging. There's also now over the counter versions available like Adapalene because with prescription products as they are prescribed and used over time, there's eventually doses that are understood that a consumer can self diagnose and say, you know what, I have acne or oh, you know, I need some anti aging benefits. And a prescription is no longer necessary because of the low side effects and low risk of harm if the consumer were to self diagnose and not actually need it. And so we've now seen these retinoic acids hit the market as OTC products. And so I'm a fan only because I actually believe they work.
- [24:19]
B
Yeah. And they've been safety tested enough. Now as far as the comparison of retinal which is compared. So as far as retinoids go, you could just do a quick one on that. So there is a bunch of them that are available at least here in the United States. You need, there is tazaretone, I'm sorry, tazarotine, which is the most powerful reportedly retinoid and that's only available as a prescription. And then there's tretinoin, which is just retinoic acid, again prescription only in the US Adapalene, this is the first over the counter retinoid approved for acne by the fda. And then retinol is the standard OTC product which is effective, although retinaldehyde reportedly is. It's also another retinoid. But retinaldehyde is reportedly a little bit better than retinol as an active ingredient as far as anti wrinkles go. So that's where we are. So the question is retinaldehyde versus Adapalene. Adapalene has been more studied for anti acne rather than specifically for anti wrinkle, which is she's asking about.
- [25:38]
A
Yeah, Adapalene is a newer drug molecule compared to retinoic acid for the treatment of acne. And it's not just like a retinoid or excuse me, a retinoic acid derivative. It actually has like a totally different molecular structure and it was engineered for acne. And so some of the off label benefits maybe are less understood or less studied in literature. Whereas retinoic acid and its derivatives have been around longer and their off label benefit of anti aging benefits is like, well, more understood. So I don't know. I wouldn't say yes, Adapalene offers similar anti aging benefits or it offers similar anti aging benefits and we just don't know about them. It's just, you know, we don't know about them yet. And so I can't say either way. And so I would focus on what we do know. And what we do know is that retinoic Acid and its precursor retinaldehyde do have some efficacy and that's what I would go towards. I go towards what I know, Perry.
- [26:46]
B
So her question though, I guess ultimately is should she switch to retinaldehyde or just stick with Adapalene?
- [26:54]
A
Well, if acne is not the primary concern, I would switch to retinaldehyde. If acne is the primary concern, I would stay with Adapalene. Now, have you seen any evidence about Adapalene working well for anti aging? Because that's ultimately the real question. Right. Like should she switch? Because I think that's her primary concern.
- [27:16]
B
Right. Yeah, I have seen suggestions that it has. It does work for it, although it's not nearly as studied. Right. For it. But there was a study, you know, randomized control study. I'll try to link it in the show notes. But adapalene versus tretinoin, that was a 24 week randomized study and the outcomes were practically equivalent there. So. Yeah, so it worked, at least in that one study. I mean, the study was kind of small and I'm sure I would dismiss that in other contexts.
- [27:51]
A
But yeah, it's also important to look at the side effects. Like people who are on tretinoin have a lot of sensitivity and maybe succumb to some of the side effects. And I don't know what the specific side effects are for Adapalene, which again is over the counter. So that's another consideration.
- [28:06]
B
Right. Well, it's. Adapalene is supposedly not as negative of an impact as tretinoin, so.
- [28:15]
A
Exactly.
- [28:16]
B
It's a synthetic retinoid. It's receptor selective, more stable. And so it's not as irritating sometimes.
- [28:24]
A
When you get more stable molecules. And I always teach this about different types of antioxidants and it's particularly true for the retinoid families is that when you have a more. More stable molecule, they tend to be less aggressive and sometimes less effective because the chemical modification that lends to their stability reduces their efficacy. So yeah, in thinking about this, if you know you are adverse to side effects from different topicals, maybe looking at the less effective one for anti aging would be a better choice because you don't have to deal with the negative skin. Skin ramifications that come with it.
- [29:01]
B
So if you're sensitive to tretinoin, you might be sensitive to retinaldehyde, although it's sort of made that way to be less irritating. So yeah, I think it's just one of those things you have to experiment with. I would expect retinaldehyde to be a little bit better here. But again, I'm not sure you're gonna notice because there is some evidence Adapalene can have an anti aging effect as you're requesting.
- [29:29]
A
Thanks for the great question, Tori. Our next question comes to us from Amanda.
- [29:35]
B
Hi, Valerie and Perry. I came across this brand, Oquist Cosmetic, that sells skin care in terracotta packaging. Could you guys please share your opinion on this concept? Love the pod, Amanda. Oh, thanks, Amanda. Terracotta. So selling clay buckets, they're selling clay bottles or what's going on?
- [29:56]
A
Well, the same material as a plastic planter, Perry. Yes, but this really the concept behind this brand. And I've seen this brand before because I actually had a, a project where a brand had wanted to use similar packaging material. They're really selling art. So they look like kind of larger vessels and contained within our waterless skin care products. And it's a really interesting concept because it is the ultimate getaway from plastic concept. You don't have to deal with not only the starting materials, but the end waste streams of like, well, is it recycled? Is it compostable material? Is it, you know, just permanent trash? Because terracotta you essentially could just throw into some dirt and it will rejoin back into the soil.
- [30:47]
B
Just a moment here. I, I was traveling last year to Belize. We went into this caves and there were all these terracotta vases that were, you know, a couple thousand years old and they were still there.
- [31:01]
A
Well, they weren't broken up and put into soil. Someone was going in there and dusting them off for you guys to come in and see. Could you imagine that job going in, dusting the vases found in caves?
- [31:13]
B
Yes. Oh, no. There were people there. They were dusting the skeletons that were found there too.
- [31:17]
A
Oh my gosh. Well, I, ideally it would be broken up, put back into soil where the right environment facilitates further breakdown into the soil. Now I will say it's an interesting concept because again, it is the ultimate, you know, going back to the roots of the earth a little bit. But it is a bit challenging because one, you have to think about breakage. A consumer's typically not just in shipment to the consumer, but a consumer is using this in their bathroom. And in my experience, if you get a terracotta material and the material is broken at any point and like that curing surface is somehow broken and water comes in contact with the chipped terracotta, it just bleeds all over the place.
- [32:05]
B
Well, that's why it says their formulas, they say are zero percent Water, which also means to them then they could have zero percent preservatives. So they, they play that up too.
- [32:17]
A
Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking like, as a consumer, like if you drop this in your bathroom and cracks like there's. There is no way to salvage that. The material, you just kind of have to scoot it into your sink.
- [32:29]
B
It seems to me this has some of the same problems that glass packaging has. Glass packaging would be great to use too, but if you break it in your. That could be very dangerous. Right. I don't know if this is going to cut you as much if it's chips and bricks, but. Seems a little dangerous.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah. And the other thing is you really have to enjoy waterless products.
- [32:53]
B
Well, yeah.
- [32:53]
A
To enjoy these products. And so, you know, maybe for a butter bomb, it's not a big deal, but for another product format like a shampoo or a lotion or a serum of sorts, when you have a solid and you have to reconstitute it with water, it's never really quite the same as a product made with water in the first place. And so it's just a. I'm not saying they're not enjoyable, but I'm just saying it's a usage curve. Right. You have to really kind of get used to it or really like that piece. And then the other part is, let's say you don't use these containers as art for your home because they are printed with information. Hopefully it's a sticker that comes off, but yeah, you know, you do. You don't want to put this in your trash. It's not recyclable. Like, are you really going to go through the efforts of returning this to the soil?
- [33:50]
B
Well, you could just put it in your backyard and smash it up. Right.
- [33:54]
A
And then Butch and Frank would cut their paws on it, Poor things.
- [33:58]
B
You know, I was curious about this because. Yeah, I'm looking. They don't have a shampoo. They have, let's see, they have anti aging serum. They have anti aging elixirs, so. Oh, they do have an apricot cleanser. They got kernel oil, sweet almond oil seed. So this is an oil cleanser, I guess.
- [34:19]
A
Well, they have a Scorbilt palmitate. That's interesting. Speaking of, you know, antioxidants and their precursors.
- [34:27]
B
Oh, okay. Yeah. So I'm looking at the ingredients of this Waterless. Yeah, it's a waterless cleanser. So it's essentially, it's an oil cleanser. So it's not gonna really foam up. Right. Hello.
- [34:38]
A
Now, how'd you get the website into English? Because I'm reading in Swedish.
- [34:42]
B
I'll send you the link.
- [34:46]
A
Well, Amanda, that's hopefully that guides you in the products. They'd be interesting to try and they're, I'm sure, beautiful to display in the home as well. Well, our next question is an audio question from Amina.
- [34:58]
D
Hi beauty Brains. My name is Amina and I'm from Canada. Love the podcast. Broadly, I'd like to know more about how current science conflicts with popular ideas of hair needing to be hydrated or moisturized, and whether you can use your scientific lens to comment on what I call the two competing schools of thought in black hair care. The more traditional school of black hair care advises us to use oils and butters to lock moisture in and avoid washing as long as our scalps stay clean. More recently, there's been a competing school of thought that we need to add moisture more frequently, which involves washing more frequently and using less heavy products. My own personal experiences with my hair led me to believe in the myth of keeping hair hydrated. Like most black women, my scalp doesn't produce a ton of oil and I would have to go without washing for much longer than I would be comfortable with for my hair to get greasy. I still wash frequently for scalp health, two to three times a week, and also because I thought my hair type needed moisture. When I skip washing too long, I notice a change in the qualities of my hair. It feels less soft to the touch, tangles more easily, and seems more prone to mechanical damage from sleeping or other daily activities. For a lot of black women, our hair goals are to reduce breakage in order to increase length retention. Can you comment on how to best achieve that from a scientific standpoint? Thanks so much for your podcast, Valerie.
- [36:17]
B
I had to edit this one up a little bit. We do. We love the audio questions. I try to make the audio question no more than one minute long, so if you send one in longer than a minute, I might edit it up. So this was one I had to edit up a little bit.
- [36:32]
A
Well, this is a very interesting question because I think there is a lot of confusion about hair hydration and I know that within particularly the curly girl communities, the there's also different schools of thought as Amina alluded to on hair hydration, hygro fatigue, what ingredients contribute to that? And it's I find it so interesting because when you're in hair research like hygral, fatigue isn't, at least historically, a thought. Not it's not that it wasn't a thought process, but we don't speak about it in that way. Like, it's not been a. Been a term. And hair hydration is definitely not a hair scientific term, but it's something the hair science community has learned to adopt because it's like, well, there's literal hydration, which what scientists think in terms of hair, and then there's the consumer perception of hair hydration.
- [37:25]
B
Exactly. So what. What happens a lot of times is something will get pushed onto consumers via, I think, marketing.
- [37:34]
A
Yep.
- [37:35]
B
And so it originates with marketing, and then that sort of takes hold in the consumer mind and that it doesn't go back to the scientists. You know, it doesn't. If it didn't originate with scientists, like, we don't know what you're talking about. So high growth fatigue is one of those. Another one like that is porosity.
- [37:58]
A
Yep.
- [37:58]
B
That's another term we don't like. When you're researching hair and stuff, porosity isn't because it's about damage and that kind of thing, but in the consumer's mind, that's just something that took hold. And so we've had to go backwards, essentially, and sort of adapt scientific concepts to these terms that consumers are using. And like I said, these were all sort of generated from marketing. And so it's kind of complicated.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah, it definitely is complicated because it's not that we didn't understand the science behind hygral fatigue. Like, we definitely know what that is, but it's kind of like, hey, wait, what is the consumer talking about and being able to interpret that to a hair concern? And as a chemist. Okay, well, what is the consumer really thinking or feeling? And one comment about porosity, which is not what was mentioned in this question, is there's even differing schools of thought because in the salon professional world, porosity is how easily a hair uptakes water, and that's relative to how damaged it is. And it's not just water, but maybe even how easily it uptakes color or even loses color. And that sort of thought. But other people think porosity is how closed the cuticle is or how tightly the cuticle is packed, and it's related to cuticular structure. And that's actually not what I think of in hair porosity. But I come from the salon professional world, so even amongst consumers, not agreement on what these terms actually mean.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah, it's almost like the word chemical. Right. Like chemists, we know what we mean when we say chemical, but consumers, what do they mean when chemical? Because they don't think, like, water is a chemical, even though we do.
- [39:44]
A
Exactly.
- [39:46]
B
All right, let's get to this question here. About. So she. She wants to know is, is hydrating your hair a scientific myth?
- [39:54]
A
I think it is, because at the end of the day, water is a plasticizer for hair, which means some of it, to a certain point, will make hair softer, more flexible, more malleable. And that's evident when your hair is absolutely soaking wet.
- [40:12]
D
Right.
- [40:12]
A
If you wet your hair, it's, you know, you can kind of put it in any shape, bend it, flex it. And this is because different bonds in your hair are temporarily broken by the water, and then when the water leaves, those bonds are reformed.
- [40:25]
B
But, yeah, your hair is essentially like a sponge. So it will absorb an amount of water, and it can absorb water from the air. Usually it's the water you put on your hair, but it also, like a sponge, can only absorb so much water. There is a point where it gets oversaturated and the water doesn't go in anymore. So there is that limitation. And when I've always talked about hydrating, that's kind of what I thought. But that's not what consumers really mean.
- [40:53]
A
No. And then a little bit of water in the hair actually is terrible for hair. It makes it a little bit stiffer, feels rougher. And this is because the fiber alignment of the hair changes with water a little bit, and it tends to look frizzy. The strands may slightly repel each other. Maybe they get a tiny bit bigger in size depending on the water quantity. And this is mostly evident from, like, atmospheric humidity. And so in science, we have been able to demonstrate the more water your hair actually has inside it, the worse it feels. The, you know, the. Basically, the worse it is, the more breakage you can get. And so when a consumer says, oh, I want my hair to be hydrated, water content is actually the last thing that your hair wants. Because a consumer thinks hydration is their hair smell feels smooth, soft, it's shiny, it's lubricated. You can't actually feel the cuticle. So the science world here differs a little bit from the real world.
- [42:00]
B
And what the consumers are talking about when they're talking about hydration is just a feeling of conditioning. And conditioning is generally done through, you know, hydrophobic materials, not through water materials, but through your conditioning agents, your silicones, your butters, your oils, and that kind of thing. So whereas it feels like it's hydrating, it's actually the opposite it of hydrating.
- [42:27]
A
And brands know that. Right. So Essentially, you know, the thought that Amina asked was, if water is actually the enemy, why do brands market products labeled as hydrating? And the hair feels really good? And this is because the brands have actually interpreted what the consumer means by hydrating versus the product actually being hydrating. And they're just speaking the consumer consumer language. And these hydrating products, they might market skin care, hydrating ingredients because a consumer recognizes those, but those actually wouldn't be great for hair. It's the overall product performance, lubrication, these conditioning agents, hair that's easier to comb, hair that feels softer, all those kinds of things. That's why the hair feels good, even though it may not necessarily be adding water content back to the hair.
- [43:17]
B
So as far as advice on how do you minimize breakage while maximizing the length, I think you have to use conditioning ingredients like, you know, dimethicone or silicones are good, or oils, you know, can be good too, if you like that feel.
- [43:34]
A
Yeah, I like, you know, I don't mind the use of oils and butters because it. It's not that they lock in moisture. That's not why I would use them. And I think that would be. I don't think it's scientifically incorrect because if you have oil and butter on your hair, you can change migration of water into and out of the hair, but it's. It's not necessarily locking in moisture like it would be a skincare benefit. It actually could be a bad thing if your hair needs more water in it to. To look, you know, good. What I would say is the benefit of oils and butters is lubrication. And so when your hair is lubricated, you get less breakage because there's less stress and strain on the hair fiber.
- [44:16]
B
So I hope that covers all that. I'm sure we'll get something like this in the future. So. But yeah, I mean, hydrating is not going away in the hair care world because it's very. Consumers like the word, but it doesn't really mean what you think it means, at least from a scientific standpoint.
- [44:37]
A
Exactly where our last question comes to us from. Kelly. Hi, Valerie and Perry. I've been listening to your podcast for a while, and you guys have inspired me to start my own skincare line. I'm really, I'm really excited about it, and I also wonder if you guys can offer any advice on where to begin. Any and all feedback you can provide would be absolutely crucial to my success and this endeavor, and I would be most grateful. Kelly.
- [44:58]
B
Well, you know what? Ironically or Strangely, I just did a webinar on this exact subject, how to launch a product in 2026. So I'll put that link in the show notes if you want to hear a webinar of me doing that exact thing. But it does surprise me, listening to our show, that she wants to start her. Inspires her to want to start her own.
- [45:20]
A
That surprises you? Why is that?
- [45:22]
B
It's just that there are so many different ports products already out there and that generally the technology isn't changing, so it's very difficult to make yourself stand out. I think ultimately to stand out in this business is not really a technology thing. It's more of a marketing story thing.
- [45:43]
A
Oh, interesting. I agree with that. You know, a lot of people can have the world's best product if people don't know about it or the story isn't communicated effectively or in an immediate, meaningful way, you know, how are people gonna buy in and believe? But I actually think it's really exciting because, you know, it's. I think product creation is fun and you can kind of pick and choose the things that mean something to you and put it together in a way, you know, that makes sense. And if Kelly thinks she has a customer, that's even more awesome.
- [46:12]
B
I don't want to come off sounding like I don't think people should launch products. I think. But as far as any time in the history of the world, now is the easiest time to launch your own product. Because it used to be when I first started the industry, it was really hard to start your own, because if you wanted to sell your product to consumers, you would have to find a buyer at a store and convince them to take your product and then they would sell the consumers. There was some, maybe some mail order stuff, but it was really hard to get distribution for your product. Maybe farmers markets or something. Nowadays you can still do all of that, but you have the Internet and you can distribute stuff through Amazon.
- [46:52]
A
So.
- [46:53]
B
And you can compete with the big guys. Before, it was really hard to compete with the big guys because they paid all this money for advertising. You couldn't turn around and not see Pantene or, you know, or something like that. So it makes it hard for the little guy. But now anybody can go viral on TikTok or Instagram or get a Facebook thing or build your business online, and you can build your brand easily online. There are just so many people that have bought, have gotten awareness to their brands without really having to spend any money. You got to spend your time, but you could spend a Lot less money. So there has never been an easier time to launch your own line. And Valerie, as you said, just because it's hard to stand out technically, it's not hard to stand out with a good story. And if you have a good story and it's a good rationale, I mean, that's how the drunk elephant woman who launched her line, I mean, she, she didn't come up with any new technology. She just said, for me personally, these six ingredients are bad for me. I'm going to make products without that. And my skin looks great. And that resonates with people. So not a technology thing, but a marketing story. So if you got a good marketing story, hey, anybody can be successful. I think.
- [48:11]
A
Exactly. So what are the three things that you would recommend to Kelly instead of starting her own skincare line? And then I'll mention three things.
- [48:19]
B
Okay. I would say the number one thing, absolute most important is find a customer who would buy your story. Right, Right. And I guess, I guess wait to back that up, number one thing is to come up with a unique story of your products. And why should that exist in the world? They call it the unique selling point, the usp. Like why would somebody buy your product and not something else that already exists? So you, you need a story like that. Maybe it's an ingredient, maybe it's recipes that your mother shared with down through history or something. Just you need some story. But after that. Now second is you've got to find a consumer that would buy your products. And then I would say third, find out from that consumer what are the problems that they have and your products resonate with that or what products can you make that are going to help solve those problems. So those would be the three steps. Figure those things out and then use that to launch your line.
- [49:16]
A
Mine are more back end. So first and foremost I would say work with. If you are not aware of the rules of the industry, work with someone who is. Because even if you'd like to go on Amazon or TikTok, shop is also a great option for many people or even through your own website. There are things that are required for you to do or provide or prove to make sure that your products have some of the basic information for the consumer from a safety perspective, your label should be compliant, those types of things and you don't have to do those things, but find someone who is. The second is if you're not making the products yourself and your private labeling or, or working with another manufacturer or R and D lab to custom develop, get a really good understanding of what you get for the money and what you're responsible for taking care of in going to the market and what the manufacturer is responsible for. So that's having a good contract in place. Who is doing the basic safety testing, who is doing preservative testing. And when they tell you, oh, these are the things you can say about your product, did they establish that through claims testing or are they just getting that from the raw material data? It doesn't necessarily make a big difference, but if you were ever challenged, you would at least want to know that information. And then the third thing I can say is, you know, is hard to, I think, get high quality packaging, that is stock. You can, it just takes a little bit of searching and so just be really patient in that and don't feel that you have to go big or go home with like 10,000 pieces or 5,000 pieces. You can find really great packaging out there that you can customize with a really beautiful, high quality label or something like that. A lot of people use the same packaging and you would never know because they, they take care of it with their own decoration and design. So those are probably be three things. I could probably come up with a million more. But.
- [51:29]
B
Well, you know what? I also think one of the big mistakes that people make when they have this idea for launching a line is that they then they think they have to go learn how to make up the thing themselves, you know, and it's to be a success at launching your own line, you're going to have to get really good at marketing and sales and storytelling. And you can't spend your time trying to iterate different formulas and learning the chemistry of it. There's a reason there aren't a lot of chemists who have their own line. Because being a good chemist and formulator is a different skill set than being a good marketer and salesperson. So if a successful line is what you want, you know, form focus on that marketing and sales, get a professional to help you with the formulation.
- [52:18]
A
I agree. Focus on what you're really good at and hire for the rest. A lot of people get so worried about the R and D process or the production process because they don't understand it. And at the end of the day it's like get someone on your team who understands it and you can focus on the things that you're really good at to get it to market. Well, Perry, I hear the music. Thanks for listening everyone.
- [52:39]
B
Yeah, if you have a question, feel free to send it in.
- [52:42]
A
Call, send it to 1-872-216-1856, that's right.
- [52:50]
B
Okay, well, if you have a question and we've got a few audio questions. Very cool. So you can send us a recording of it to thebeautybrainsmail.com you can call in our phone number, 1-872-216-1856. Or just leave a comment comment in the show notes. But then that's only a text one.
- [53:07]
A
If you get a chance, head over Appital Podcasts or Spotify and leave us a review that's going to help other people find the show and ensure we have a full docket of beauty questions to answer.
- [53:16]
B
Hey, the Beauty Brains are also on Patreon. If you want like what we do and like the fact that we don't have commercials, you can go to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level and your questions get a higher priority. Plus you get a transcript of the shows. And Valerie and I just had a big brainstorming. We're gonna have lots of extra stuff for our patrons in the coming year.
- [53:39]
A
We can't wait to tell you guys. But you kind of have to be a patron to find out, right? Also, don't forget to follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at The Beauty Brains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page at Tik Tok and you can find our podcast on YouTube.
- [53:58]
B
Yeah, that's fun. And. And someday we're going to show some videos on that YouTube channel.
- [54:02]
A
But not today, cuz we look like garbage. But actually we just might because both Perry and I have terrible hair. Today Perry noted my terrible hair first because I'm not wearing a hat. Then he showed me his terrible hair, which is hidden under a hat. At least I have the gall to show it. And he said, well, thank goodness we don't do YouTubes. We wouldn't look like this. And then we laughed and said, actually we probably would.
- [54:24]
B
Would. This one might come out.
- [54:27]
A
Oh goodness. Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [54:32]
B
Thanks everyone. Kittens.