← The Beauty Brains
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Valerie and you're listening to the Beauty Brains. Welcome to the Beauty Brains, a show where real cosmetic chemists answer your beauty product questions and give you an insider's look at the cosmetic industry. This is episode 411. I'm your host, Valerie George, and with me today is Perry Romanowski, Baby C and Doug. Hi, Perry.
- [00:30]
B
Hello, Valerie. Yeah, you got a whole, whole cadre right there with you. Wow.
- [00:35]
A
Oh, gosh, it's been a lot this morning, but I'm so glad to have some time with you. On today's show, we're going to cover lots of questions including why would differin be more irritating or different than prescription Adapalene? I'm turning into you.
- [00:51]
B
Oh, Lord.
- [00:52]
A
How do you know which retinol lotion to use? What is Your opinion of K18 hair mask? Is tubby Todd all over ointment really effective for baby acne? And finally, what ingredients help hair color last longer? But first, it ain't chit chat, Valerie.
- [01:08]
B
You, your whole crew is there. We got the baby, we got the cat.
- [01:12]
A
Well, Mr. Cosmetic Chemist had to go run to a vendor for our business. Yes, on a Saturday morning he did. And I'm here manning the fort, although Butch and Frank are at home. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to really contain myself. Yeah, so it's just us. So if you hear Doug being Doug in the background, if you hear Baby C cooing or screaming, I'm really sorry about that.
- [01:38]
B
Oh, no apology. We just appreciate to get your brain on these fascinating questions. You know, I'm heading to Hong Kong just tomorrow. I'm going, boy. But I just. My wife thinks it's a little odd that I'm flying all the way there. And then I'm there for like three days and coming home, oh, it's a.
- [01:59]
A
Long trip to go just to come back. So you'll be going alone?
- [02:02]
B
I will be going alone. Well, with the rest of the people on the flight.
- [02:06]
A
Well, yeah, I guess that's. Yep. If you wanted to be exact, that would be correct. But I guess someone will be home to take care of your cats.
- [02:16]
B
Yes, Teddy. You know, I don't know, you've got Doug, he's the new cat. But we've had Teddy and you know, we were getting ready to go to a friend's house last night and you know, Teddy, around 4 o', clock, Teddy gets kind of crazed because he wants to eat, but we don't like to feed him until, you know, five o'. Clock.
- [02:35]
A
Oh, is daylight savings time being hard for him. Oh, goodness.
- [02:39]
B
He's totally off. Anyway, he's bugging me. And then I put him down in the basement because I can shut the door there. And we were gonna go over to a friend's house, and we were gonna bring a bottle of wine, which happened to be downstairs in the basement on the counter. And while I was getting ready, I just heard a smash. And that's the thing he does. He just knocks things off, counters when he wants my attention. And he got it because he broke the wine bottle. And now my whole house smells like wine.
- [03:06]
A
What kind of wine? Was it white or red?
- [03:08]
B
Fortunately, it was white wine.
- [03:10]
A
Oh, goodness. Thank gosh.
- [03:12]
B
Well, no cats were hurt in it, but I did then go down and feed him. After cleaning up the mess, of course.
- [03:18]
A
Yeah. The thing about cats is they'll always show you.
- [03:22]
B
Right?
- [03:22]
A
You know, it's like you think you're in control. You are not in control.
- [03:27]
B
Yes. You know, cats can behave badly.
- [03:31]
A
Well, they certainly can. I mean, Doug, he's actually pretty good. You know, when we're here, he just wants to be with me. He wants to actually be with baby C. And every time baby C. C gets upset, he goes up to baby C and tries to console him. It's really cute. He rides around with baby C in the stroller. I even just have to tell him, get in. And he climbs in.
- [03:53]
B
Wow, that is quite fun. Now, he was a feral cat that you just found, right?
- [03:58]
A
He lived on the property. I guess you could say he lived under the shanty next door.
- [04:03]
B
Oh, there you go. And you're making a better life for him. And he's just turning into it just a regular house cat now, I guess.
- [04:09]
A
Well, we've given the option to go outside and leave. And he says, nope, I like the inside life now. I mean, who would like it? He has a cat condo, consistent supply of food. He's put on some weight already. He gets treats, toys, human affection. What's not to like?
- [04:28]
B
Sounds like a better life than a lot of people have.
- [04:31]
A
Yeah, that's for sure.
- [04:33]
B
He's a happy cat. Yeah, everybody loves a cat like that.
- [04:40]
A
Well, let's head over to Beauty News and see what's going on in the industry.
- [04:49]
B
Valerie. So I've been slow news stuff lately, but I did see a couple of stories that I thought were interesting, at least to me. I don't know if the audience. Well, anyway, the on Unilever, they. Their chief sustainability officer has step down from the role. Now, why would anyone be interested in this? Well, here's here's what happened.
- [05:12]
A
She.
- [05:14]
B
Stepped down after six years of leading the company's global sustainability strategy. And the why, they say, is because the change reflects Unilever's shift to integrate sustainability within a broader corporate affairs. Now, I only look at this because I think of sustainability and how in the industry it's just this marketing story, right. Because then it was really a big push the last few years to make yourself look good. But I think with the way society has changed just in the last year and our government even has changed it really companies are kind of getting away from even talking about society. Sustainability. Right. Or is that just my perception?
- [06:00]
A
You know, I think the big thing a couple years ago was for companies to put out all these ridiculous goals. And then of course, we forget that these companies put out these goals. We have no idea if they're hitting them unless they put out a sustainability report. For example, Chobani puts out a report every year that's available if you'd like to read it. But most people, the yogurt people. Yeah. And most. So most consumers aren't going back and checking like did they hit their goals and all these kinds of things. And so I think this whole fanaticism of pushing out these insane metrics by 2032, we're going to do this and then no one following up on it, I think is a bit passe now. And so I think, yeah, maybe Unilever's right, these things are being internalized, but the conversation certainly isn't going away because now retailers have sustainability requirements that are getting really granular, more detailed, like asking about water usage and emissions, carbon emissions and life cycle analysis as part of their requirements. I don't think it's going away. It's just maybe not necessarily forward facing as much.
- [07:08]
B
Right. I guess I just feel from like the information landscape that I take in, it's just not really put out there as a thing that they want consumers to care about. And it always has struck me as a little odd, sustainability, because you could easily hit sustainability goals by just cutting your sales. Like don't sell as much. Right. You want to cut by 10%, just stop selling 10% of your sales. But nobody's going to do that.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah. Cut your sales by 10%. Actually, you know, the industry has been down year over year for most companies. I mean even like in a company like Estee Lauder, you could public publicly traded, you can see or at least publicly reported for their shareholders, you can see that they're down. So I mean, maybe they've hit their goals Ipso facto, just by that good point, we did it. It's like putting an item on a list that you already did and then crossing it off because it's like, helps you feel really good about yourself and gets you motivated.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah. You know, it's also. I see some of these small indie brands and stuff and they're all about sustainability. I'm like, you know, just starting a business isn't, isn't really reaching that goal. It's kind of the opposite of that goal.
- [08:23]
A
But I know, you know, that's, I'm.
- [08:24]
B
Not against indie brands and I love them. That's where most of the innovation comes from. And clever stories. But it's not more sustainable to have a thousand different companies versus one company. One company would be more sustainable than a thousand, don't you think?
- [08:39]
A
I, I agree. And sometimes, you know, that keeps me a little bit awake at night. About our job is even just like on the labs scale. I think of the waste of all the raw material containers and yeah, all the little prototype containers and the packaging waste and the bulk that you know, doesn't. Isn't viable or stability waste, all those kinds of things. I mean we do stuff like capture in a drum and get it incinerated, which is more expensive than just entomb it in a landfill. But I even order bulk material, like raw materials that I know I'm going to work with. We just buy like a drum of it and work out of it for a long time because it's way I feel better about it at night than having like a thousand little plastic sample containers I threw away. But this is stuff people, people don't think it about. And it's like, yeah, it would be better if you didn't launch a new product because, you know, so much waste just even goes into like the lab work.
- [09:32]
B
Right. You know, you kind of want new products and people want product, different products, they want options. And on the other hand, like a small company, how much impact are you really making if you stop doing your work? It's not like it would even make a significant dent in the environment. You know what I mean? It's just so, so small. It's kind of like how I'm, I'm a little cynical about like recycling programs. Like, oh, if I throw this can in the garbage versus the recycle bin, is it even going to go there?
- [10:07]
A
Yeah, you never know.
- [10:09]
B
It's a, I know it's a tough subject but you know, do what you can, what you feel good about. And I'm. And be Skeptical of these corporations and their sustainability goals.
- [10:20]
A
Well, there was another interesting article that I thought was really right up your alley and you probably would have a lot to say about, was published@NutriIngredients.com A study finds that an oral supplement can reduce wrinkles in 12 weeks. Thoughts?
- [10:36]
B
Oh, really? Oh, yeah, I had some thoughts. I mean, first this is published in, what is this magazine? Natural Products. Yeah, Natura Ingredients, which I think is an industry publication for the supplement industry. And what they did is they created this supplement for. It's a hyaluronic acid supplement. And then they had a study where they had 63 adults. Some half of them were placebo controlled and half of them, you know, took the supplement and after 12 weeks they saw some skin changes. At least they said that anyway. And as far as studies go, this is probably better than most things are done. Right.
- [11:30]
A
Well, 30 consumers. 30 consumers in each half. I mean, that provides some statistical significance to be calculated.
- [11:38]
B
Right, right. But they didn't control for other lifestyle factors like anything else. So it's like.
- [11:45]
A
Okay, well we didn't say it was perfect, we said it was better.
- [11:48]
B
Right. And so this is a preliminary study which is kind of interesting, but it just, to me, it doesn't even get over the whole idea that when you eat something it's gonna go directly and impacting your skin. I'm just not convinced that happens. You know, very rarely would that happen. Yeah, I mean, I suppose if you ate like three pounds of carrots, your skin might turn orange, but it actually does.
- [12:18]
A
So I worked with a guy whose wife was always trying weird diets and she tried this carotene rich diet. I mean, everything she ate was either orange or purple, really high in carotenoids. And her skin did kind of look a little warmy glowy after, you know, a few months of eating like that. Sure.
- [12:40]
B
Well, but for something like that, I can understand that because you got all this beta carotene, this dye molecule essentially.
- [12:47]
A
Excessively floating in your blood.
- [12:50]
B
Right. If you're gonna eat enough of it, it's gonna get everywhere in your body and part of that body is your skin. So yeah, the stuff you eat is going to get to everywhere in your body, but it's not going to concentrate in your body at any specific place. And so that's why I think these supplements and when you see a study like this, of course it was funded by the supplement maker.
- [13:12]
A
Yeah, always is. It always is.
- [13:16]
B
And it's going to be excessively positive really, because you wouldn't really Publish a study if you've, if it's been funded. You're not going to publish a study that says, oh, no, that supplement that you're selling doesn't work.
- [13:29]
A
Right.
- [13:29]
B
So they're only going to publish positive results.
- [13:32]
A
Exactly. Well, speaking of positive results, let's answer some beauty questions. Our first question comes to us from Megan, a patron on Patreon.
- [13:46]
B
Megan says hi, beauty brains, new patron here. Thank you for your informative and fun podcast. My question is in regards to Adapalene gel. I've been using prescription 0.3% for about six months, and after a few weeks of a slight redness, it's been smooth sailing. My prescription lapsed briefly, so I bought differins 0.1% to hold me over. I've been shocked to see that my skin is reacting terribly and more red and irritated than it was even at the beginning of my 0.3% prescription. I assume that the lower percentage that Differin would have would be fine for my skin. But what am I missing? Thanks for your help. Yeah, this. So Adapalene is a topical treatment that I guess you can get prescription level. I think you've used Adapalene before, haven't you?
- [14:36]
A
I have not, but I'm very familiar with it. Well, I used to use retinols, but I actually can't use those anymore because I, you know, have rosacea and it's no bueno for me. So I'm okay, you know. Yeah. Do I wish I had, like, really great skin? My skin's all right. Not as nice as yours, Perry, from all the products that you use, but.
- [14:58]
B
Well, you know. All the products that I use.
- [15:02]
A
Exactly. Oh, goodness. Well, you know, it's interesting because as she said, she was using 0.3% before, and so you would think, think that using 0.1% with a lower active drug dose would be less irritating on the skin. But that's not what she experienced.
- [15:21]
B
Less reactive. Yeah, that's for sure.
- [15:23]
A
So I think, you know, obviously we have to look at the rest of the formulation because clearly it's not the active material making a difference. And so she mentioned it was the Adapalene gel. And presumably she's also using the Differin gel. And so typically those use a carbamer, which is a type of gel polymer, creates these really crystal clear gels. You could also use it in a cream based system to help aid in stability, but it's pretty innocuous, doesn't usually cause any problems. I know Differin also has propylene glycol, which is A solvent. And sometimes that can aid in penetration of the active Right onto the skin. But also sometimes propylene glycol can be sensitive for individuals. So maybe you have a sensitivity to propylene glycol.
- [16:13]
B
Yeah, it's unlikely that if your skin is okay of Adapalene at 0.3%, then you would have a negative reaction from that ingredient at 0.1%. So when it's lower, logically it doesn't usually make sense. You know, I mean, I suppose there are some cases where that might be the case, but usually the dose elicits the reaction. So most likely, as Valerie was suggesting, it's some other ingredient in that different formula. And I don't have the ingredient list, but that would be my guess.
- [16:48]
A
Well, it also is purported to have carbamer Propylene glycol appears to be the same base as differin, but we don't know the quantities. Right. So we just know the concentration of the Adapalene drug active and 0.3%, 0.1%. But you know, the carbamer quantity could be different, which doesn't play a role. But propylene glycol could definitely be different. Maybe they have a very slightly different ph. So if the Adapalene requires a different PH adjustment at the end, that could cause something. Maybe there's both have this surfactant in there called Piloxy 182. It is pretty innocuous surfactant, helps solubilize everything in the system. Some people can have a sensitivity to it. Maybe, although it's in both, maybe you're used to a certain level of one or the other. So again, it's really hard to say what it could be because we don't know the whole formula. We just know the drug active. But I'm going to guess it's the combination of ingredients. Even if they are the same, the same, the use levels might not be. Also, if the gels have different viscosities or rheologies, that could also impact penetration.
- [18:03]
B
Yeah. What are they using for neutralizing the gel?
- [18:07]
A
Like tea or sodium hydroxide?
- [18:11]
B
Oh, okay, that's interesting. Now I would also say one, even. Even when you have two products that have exactly the same ingredient lists, if they're made by different companies, they're not going to have exactly the same suppliers. And, and so just because you get one ingredient with the same name, if it's made by one factory and the same thing is made by a different factory, chemically there are going to be some slight differences just because maybe they have chemical reactions that create the molecule in a different way or there's some residuals and they don't clean it up in the same way. And so that's why just because you have the same name of an ingredient, but if it's produced by different suppliers, that doesn't mean it's chemically exactly the same. And so you could be reacting to some residual in one of their raw materials also.
- [18:58]
A
One thing I do want to say is if this is happening now, we are changing seasons and so it could actually be kind of coincidental that.
- [19:06]
B
Right.
- [19:07]
A
Things are changing because as we head into fall winter, your skin's barrier actually decreases because the skin barrier part of its role in terms of like the lipid content of skin is to provide protection from the sun when we're in peak UV invisible light exposure as we go into fall winter. Research has demonstrated that the amount of ceramides and lipids in skin actually decreases which is why we get drier skin in fall winter anyway. And so we could also kind of being that seeing that shift in your skin. But regardless, I hope Megan that you get back to your regular Adapalene gel soon and it resolves all your challenges.
- [19:48]
B
Yeah, well said. Speaking of well said, we got audio question from one of our patrons, our patron Z. Let me play that now.
- [19:59]
C
Hi beauty brains, I'm Z. My partner is a professional pretty person and I am in charge of their science based beauty routine. I've been researching retinol body lotions which have been become more popular and dropping in price recently which I think is the result of encapsulation technology. Anyway, Good housekeeping's in house. Cosmetic chemists recently put out a list of body of retinol body lotions and I have a few questions because I'm super smart and I shove multiple questions into a single question. Is there any rational basis to choose their pick? Bio oil at $1.63 an ounce over their drugstore pick Gold Bond age renewal retinol overnight at $1.31 per ounce over their budget pick Olay renewing at 59 cents an ounce. And is there any reason to keep using a face specific retinol lotion? Currently we've been using Olay retinol overnight because I can get it at Costco for pretty cheap. What do y' all use? Do you think that you know and if you don't use these specialty ones, do you think that it would be worth it for somebody whose long term income depends on their looks? Thank you so much.
- [21:18]
B
Thanks for that Z. So Valerie, are you familiar with the Good Housekeeping laboratories?
- [21:24]
A
I am familiar with them. We've gotten a lot of questions about them over the years and I know that a couple of, you know, brands that I formulated for have, have been, you know, mentioned in them or maybe even just like in the Good Housekeeping Awards program in general have gotten, you.
- [21:42]
B
Know, I've actually, I've actually been to their lab and I got a little tour.
- [21:47]
A
Oh my gosh, you've never mentioned that before. Of all the stories you tell, you've never told that one. Maybe you have.
- [21:53]
B
And I forgot like. Well, it's back, it was back like I was out in New York for, for Society. Cosmetic chemists are like annual meeting in December and apparently some of the Good Housekeeping being. Because they actually do have a lab where they test stuff and it's kind of cool. And the, like, the scientists in part of that lab, they were familiar with my work and you know, through Chemist Corner, through the Beauty Brains here and they were excited to give me a little tour of their lab. So, so I did that. That was probably back in, you know, 2004, 15 or 16, way back then. But yeah, they actually, they actually do test products and they have labs and so it's kind of cool.
- [22:31]
A
That's really neat. Maybe we could get a tour this December when you and I are going to be in New York.
- [22:36]
B
That's right there, if anyone's listening there. That'd be cool. All right, let's get to this. Retinol. So when they do their studies, they essentially rate the products and then they give the value. Right. So the bio oil is $1.63 an ounce. And then there's another product recommended at $1.31 an ounce and then the Olay product at $0.59 an ounce. How, as a consumer can you decide? I mean, I guess after reading the article. How do you decide? They say there are three best ones. Like how do you decide which one you would pick?
- [23:14]
A
Well, in my opinion, I think retinol should be purchased by strength because we know that it's effective. It actually comes from the drug prescription industry. And then eventually it, it became available for over the counter use in the form of retinol. And I think you got to go by a strength play on this. And if a brand is not disclosing a percentage of retinol enclosed in the first formulation, then you could probably guess that they're not using enough retinol to talk about.
- [23:46]
B
Right. I, I kind of see, you know, one, one of the things. And the Good Housekeeping folks are great. They got chemists there, they do tests. But testing a product like retinol in a lab, it would be pretty hard. What you would really need to do to properly evaluate this is you would need to essentially do human panel tests and double blind placebos. And there's no way they're doing that. You know, that would just be obscenely expensive for like a single report because, you know, how much money would that generate? It would cost them a lot more to actually run that study than money would ever generate on a blog post.
- [24:25]
A
Or something or, you know, affiliate links or something like that. Yeah, so I think when shopping for retinol, you definitely need to shot by percentage. So that one, you know how much you're being exposed to, I mean, is a vitamin A derivative. And it is actually strictly regulated from a toxicology standpoint. So there's that. And if a brand, again, is not mentioning the percentage, they probably don't have enough that they feel comfortable posting a percentage on their product. Or additionally, retinol is really unstable. And so there might be this fear that, well, if we say we have 0.1% in it on the package six months from now, does it have 0.1% in it? Because it can, you know, change over time in the formula because it's pretty unstable. And so when you put a percentage on the package, you have a burden of proof that at any time point that that's available to the consumer, it retains that percentage. So maybe that's why they don't want to do it. But you know, of course, by price you're like, oh, well, $0.59 per ounce. You know, I gotta buy this for the retinol. Olay is a great product, comes from a big company for sure. They're doing all the clinical testing, but.
- [25:33]
B
Right.
- [25:33]
A
Does it have enough retinol in it to.
- [25:35]
B
Right, well, that's what I would say for when, for a consumer, when you see something like this by default would say like, well, P and G has done the work, right? It's not, it's not like they're gonna skimp on doing the science behind it. And so whatever claims they're making on it, you know, they, they're gonna be able to validate that with lab studies and such. So my default would be like, yeah, I would try the product from the big company and in this case it would be the Olay product.
- [26:04]
A
See. But yes, it probably does have retinol in it, Perry, or some kind of retinol derivative, you know, I didn't really know, I didn't look into that. But that doesn't mean it's doing the things retinol would do. The product is probably doing things the formula would do and that's been proven. But if you're really looking for the retinol benefits, I think you gotta go with a brand that substantiated a percentage.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah. And I would just say, I would look at the claims like what?
- [26:31]
A
Yes.
- [26:32]
B
What is Olay claiming? It does versus someone else. So if the claims sound impressive enough to you, then I would have faith in that. But I take what you're saying is like, you're right because, you know, does retinol really do it or is it just the moisturizing and you make makes you feel better about it.
- [26:54]
A
I think that's what the Olay product is doing. And I mean, Olay makes great product guys. I use a couple of them. I like the scent. You know, it's, you know, very nostalgic to use. But if you really want a hard hitting retinoid that's like on par with, you know, 0.1% adapalene, for example, you know, not that that's a retinoid, but you know what I mean? You know, you have to, you really have to go with the percentage claim.
- [27:21]
B
Sure. Assuming that they're actually putting that in there. All right, now there was another. So that his, his question also is, what do you use? And I can tell you what I use, which is I don't use this product. I just rely on genetics and my tolerance for my appearance, my anti wrinkle.
- [27:44]
A
But what you should rely on is your wife's tolerance for your appearance. That's all I'm saying. But you know, if I were to use one, which I have used retinoids before and I have used them on other parts of my body as well, I think Paula's choice is a great option because, you know, they, I think they're pretty thorough. They're owned by a very large core corporation. If they say there's 0.1% in it, there's 0.1% in IT, they've done all the appropriate testing for it. I think that's a really good option. And from an economics perspective, it's really affordable from a entry level price positioning for a percentage claim, Retinol. I think there's also the question, well, do you have to use face specific retinol lotion or can you use one for the body? I think you really have to use one designed for the face and because again, retinol is a vitamin A derivative and it's strictly regulated from a tox perspective. And there's toxicology data that's been come out and it's going to go into enforcement in the EU that the retinol use levels are going to be heavily reduced, particularly for body, because of the exposure area. So use a retinol lotion on the face that's designed for the face and body. Free the body.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah. And there was just one other portion of the question was, and it was sent separately, but it was about the suggestion of retinol encapsulation. And I'll just talk about encapsulation technology. I'm, I'm not a huge fan of that from a formulator standpoint. What do you think, Valerie?
- [29:18]
A
I don't like encapsulation.
- [29:20]
B
I mean, I like the, I like theoretically the idea of it and it makes sense. But, but the practice of it. If you've actually had to make a product, you know, you're working with your marketing people and you say, here's a retinoid, I want to stabilize it. You're going to find all of these raw material suppliers who will tell you, oh, we can encapsulate it, or we could put it in cyclodextrin or some sort of delivery system. But the reality is these things, when you try to make them into products and you test the products, they, they don't work. And the reason is, first, encapsulation is really tough because if you make the, you gotta make the capsule weak enough that it's gonna break open when a person puts it on their skin and they rub it. Right. On the other hand, if you make it too weak, when you're in production and you're putting it in the 3,000 gallon tanks and you're mixing up with the mixers and such, all of those things would just break. So the encapsules are just broken eggs. Right.
- [30:18]
A
We always had problems with encapsulated materials in my prior life because of that.
- [30:25]
B
Right. And so, you know, I could, I see influencers will talk about encapsulation and the science behind it and technology. And it's all interesting to say, but if you actually had to try to make products, you'll soon realize that encapsulation is really just a marketing story that raw material suppliers and cosmetic marketers make. It's not actually helping deliver in a superior way. I've just never seen a study that does that. And even if you could find a study and put together one that shows that you're making the product in the lab. That's different than if you're going out into a pilot plant or a plant and actually making something and you're filling it out, filling lines and stuff. Yet this encapsulations, they just don't hold up through this.
- [31:10]
A
So if you are lucky enough or can afford to purchase this encapsulated retinol that, let's say, has an average of 10% load, let's say you would only have to put in 1% to get a 0.1% end retinol. Well, these things are pretty expensive. And you may say, okay, well, that's not a big deal, but most of the retinol encapsulations are a lot lower than that. And so let's say you're looking at a 1% load. You would have to put in 10% of this encapsulation to get your 0.1% retinol claim. And it's just cost prohibitive. And then also, so it's not as easy to add as that. You still have to get the encapsulation in the formula without ruining the encapsulation, breaking it open.
- [31:52]
B
Right. And also with the delivery load is just because they can get 10% into these liposomes or spheres or whatever, that doesn't mean you're going to get all of that breaking out. Most of it is still going to be washed away or not going to break out. And so it's even a smaller delivery amount, just not based on how much you can actually get into the fill. So overall, I just find this encapsulation topic, it's a great story. It's just a marketing bit, though.
- [32:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. Not impressed. Well, our next question is impressive. HGM says hi, beauty brains, love, love your podcast. What is your opinion of K18 hair mask? Thanks for all your insight and inside info. Frizzy in South Carolina. I mean, Perry, I would ask if you've used this, but I, I don't know that you have.
- [32:44]
B
Oh, I, I didn't know this hair mask. I thought it was like a Halloween mask and it was like a. A dog, right?
- [32:50]
A
Oh, my gosh. No, no, this is the K18.
- [32:53]
B
Plus K9 is K18. Oh, my gosh.
- [32:58]
A
That's almost as bad as earlier as when I said different instead of different.
- [33:03]
B
Almost. All right, well, let's see what's in this product here. The K18. Now, K18 is. They're famous for having a peptide, a proprietary peptide. Right. And that's all about bond building and you know, they, they grew their brand impress with this impressive story. Now whether it really does the bond building, that's debatable. But I'm looking at the product. What do we got here?
- [33:29]
A
And this is the leave in molecular repair hair mask. By the way. This is their, their key product. I've used several of the K18 products. You know, I'm underwhelmed by the shampoo performance. But you know, this mask is actually a nice mask. You know, makes the hair feel really great. What do you think could be causing that?
- [33:49]
B
Well, there's a behem trimonium chloride which.
- [33:52]
A
Is a great conditioner. You don't need a lot of it to have your hair feel good.
- [33:57]
B
Sure. We got what the acetyl esters could be having an effect.
- [34:02]
A
They provide a lot of great slip to the hair. Dicapryl ether is a very lightweight emollient.
- [34:07]
B
Look, your hair is wheat, wheat protein.
- [34:12]
A
Well, I have a question. If they have their strengthening bond building peptide in there, why do they need a strengthening protein like wheat protein in there?
- [34:20]
B
These are good questions. I guess they strengthen in different ways, right Wink? Yeah. My issue with, you know, just the whole notion of K18's technology, I'm, I'm sure you know they're now, I think they got bought out by some big company, but maybe if they didn't, I'm sure they have a laboratory where they done a study with the peptide and they could, I don't know, I don't even know. How do you show bond building? Right?
- [34:47]
A
Well, you have to show bond building in result oriented fashion. So there's tensile strength, you could say. Well, presumably if there's more bonds in the hair, the hair is stronger and so it will be less prone to breakage. Elasticity will be improved.
- [35:02]
B
I'm going to say here, Valerie, I do not know and this is just my, I'm just opining here and spitballing here. But I'm going to say their strength claims are not based on tensile strength. And so essentially tensile strength is you take a fiber and you put it in a machine we call diastron and you pull it apart and you can measure how much force does it take to pull apart. Now that's the way that people think that hair strength would be measured.
- [35:31]
A
Do you think they've measured it with repeat grooming where they essentially comb the hair for 10,000 times and count how many break after 10,000 cycles?
- [35:41]
B
Right. And they do it on untreated hair and they'll do it on treated hair and Surprise, surprise. If you treat it with beheme trimonium chloride, the comb is gonna slip through and it's not gonna break as much. So it's a sideways way to get to strength. But it's not actually, to me, it's not really hair strength. But the industry has said, oh, yeah, this means hair strength. Because, you know, practically to consumers. That is really what you mean by.
- [36:07]
A
Hair strength is it breaks less. Yeah. I mean, I agree it's a valid method, but that. Does it mean the protein is doing it or their peptide? No, you would actually have to do untreated hair. Then you'd have to do a control which essentially has their proprietary peptide removed. And then they would have to do the formula with the peptide back in it and compare those three. And so I guess we'd have to look at the fine print to see what they did.
- [36:33]
B
Right. And shocked. Shocked to say, I've never seen a study published like that. Because why would they.
- [36:39]
A
Yeah. Also, you know, interesting, there's a question. I noticed there's alcohol in the formula. Isn't that bad for you? And they essentially say the alcohol serves as an agent to optimize the hair environment for the mask to work. On a deeper level, they do have denatured alcohol in there, which is a penetration agent. So I. With that. But the isopropyl alcohol in here is. It's a byproduct of behemonium chloride if they're using an 85% active version. So I get, I get why they kind of lumped it all together. But they. I think they also included cereal alcohol as the third alcohol. And that's really, you know, they're different.
- [37:20]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:21]
A
Kind of helps thicken. Thicken the product. So. But, you know, they got to make it consumer facing. So. Yeah, from a performance perspective, this is a really, really nice product. Now, you know, would I repeatedly spend $75 on 50mls of it?
- [37:38]
B
No, no. That. It doesn't seem. I think you can get something that will work just as good for a lot less than that. Just look for behene trimonium chloride in a product and you're good. I'm a little surprised they don't have any silicones in here. But. But, you know, maybe they're against silicones, something.
- [37:55]
A
The dicapryl ether acts as that spreading agent. It's very volatile and lightweight. Yeah. But, yeah. Next question comes to us from Sydney. Hello.
- [38:06]
B
Congratulations, Valerie, on your new baby.
- [38:09]
A
Thank you.
- [38:09]
B
I had a question about babies and skincare. My newborn has baby acne. And dry, flaky skin. I thought you didn't get acne until you were like, a teenager.
- [38:19]
A
No, babies get acne. They do.
- [38:23]
B
Okay, well, many people online recommend Tubby Todd all over ointment to magically fix baby acne overnight. The hype is so high, it makes me wonder if these are paid reviewers. Is there anything in the product that seems to warrant the miracle cure claims or is it interchangeable with any lotion? Thanks so much. I love the show. Signed, skeptical. Well, thank you, Sydney. Skeptical Sydney. I guess I should know that there was baby acne, but it's not. Is it the same as like, teenager acne or something or.
- [38:56]
A
No, it's not as inflammatory looking. I mean, it's part of it is inflammatory. A lot of it's little milia, but it's not as pustular. It's more like little red bumps and raised type things. And, you know, the baby's skin looks very inflamed. Baby C had a little bit of that and honestly, I. I didn't really want to put anything on him because I just don't think that babies need products that have fruit extracts and essential oils.
- [39:25]
B
And is that what that's. Essential oil sounds like a really bad thing to put on.
- [39:31]
A
This one doesn't have essential oils in it, but it has all these plant extracts and I just, I don't believe they do anything except, you know, add allergens to skin. And if you have baby acne, probably that's like the last thing you want. But I didn't even put, like, emollients on him. The only thing we put is aquaphor on his bum. When it looks a little, you know, red and it works really great, it's gone the next day. But I actually have never even heard of Tubby Todd until I had Baby C. And of course, it was like filling my Instagram feed. Feed on the ads. I guess Instagram heard baby C crying and they were like, oh, tummy Todd ad.
- [40:09]
B
The algorithms are right there for you. I'm just curious what the ingredients are in there. They talk about gluten free and dairy free. Okay.
- [40:20]
A
Yeah, well, there's two types. One is an all over ointment and the other is all over ointment for eczema, which actually has 1% chlorine colloidal oatmeal in it, which actually is really great for skin. So if I were to get one, I probably would do that to help with the skin because oatmeal has many beneficial compounds in it that help Aid in the pathways for helping eczema resolve itself, including barrier repair, increasing skin water content.
- [40:50]
B
It's interesting to me that this product is actually an over the counter drug drug otc. It's got the OTC labeling.
- [40:56]
A
Well, eczema is a drug claim.
- [40:58]
B
Right. Colloda Oatmeal is a skin protectant. It's on the monograph. And so. But then I look at their inactive ingredients. Inactive, but you know, why are you putting in mango fruit extract and avocado extract? Why would you expose a little kid to all these extra extracts? Because they're not really doing anything.
- [41:18]
A
I don't know. Maybe they're olfactive extracts. I haven't tried the product, so I don't really. I don't really know.
- [41:25]
B
Yeah, well, actually they do make the claim of, oh, fragrance free. But then, you know, they say a little star comprised of natural aromatic raw materials.
- [41:35]
A
Okay, so that's what they are. Yeah. So basically you're still exposing your kids skin to allergens because.
- [41:41]
B
Right.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah.
- [41:42]
B
Seem like a good idea.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah, it's not for me. It's not for me, but.
- [41:46]
B
And I could, I could see that the company, the product probably without these odor molecules, smells kind of bland and such. And it's probably not as appealing, but only for the parent using it for the, the kid, he doesn't really care what it smells like.
- [42:00]
A
The baby does not care. No. I mean, I smell like onions most of the time. And baby C doesn't even notice.
- [42:08]
B
Does. Does Doug notice?
- [42:11]
A
Doug doesn't mind. He actually likes it. But Mr. Cusco, cosmetic chemist, notices it. And it's like ever since I had the baby, it's like I, you know, I'm just having a struggle here. Perry.
- [42:22]
B
Wow, it's. It's really amazing to me what you ladies go through. Oh, my goodness, these kids.
- [42:28]
A
Let's look at the original all over ointment. So that one doesn't have colloidal oatmeal, but it's, you know, water glycerin, which is a great humectant. Stearic acid helps thicken it. Propane dials are really nice solvent. Capryllocapic triglycerides, acetyl alcohol, saccharomyces ferment, filtrate jojoba esters, which are actually a really great emollient. They have a lot of great skin hydration studies. Really wonderful material. Beeswax probably helps keep it all in place. And then everything else in the formula is their aromatic blend. So essentially this is just a really great lotion. Almost Kind of like a very thick cream cream. And so, yeah, I don't know if it's a miracle. I don't think there's anything in it specifically that's healing the acne, per se, because baby acne is so different from adult acne, but.
- [43:17]
B
Right.
- [43:17]
A
It's probably just soothing the skin.
- [43:19]
B
As I like to say about acne, if you use a treatment, it might go away in a week, and if you do nothing, it might go away in seven days.
- [43:29]
A
You've told this joke before, and I think I also laughed at it, like, as if I heard it for the time. First. First time. Oh, my goodness.
- [43:37]
B
I don't have any kids, so it's definitely not for me.
- [43:39]
A
And, you know, I. I just use Aquaphor when Baby C needs it, and it works great.
- [43:44]
B
All right.
- [43:45]
A
Speaking of great, last question comes from Kelly. Hi, Valerie. And Perry. Hey, Perry. Are you feeling better? And back to joggling.
- [43:53]
B
I never stop joggling, but I am feeling a bit better, so my knee has healed up. Thank you so much.
- [43:57]
A
Hey, Valerie, How's Baby C? He's doing. Doing great. He has learned his shrieking voice, and it is not an inside voice, and we don't appreciate that.
- [44:06]
B
Is he still like, 90 percentile in the weight or factors?
- [44:10]
A
You mean like, 99th percentile? Yes.
- [44:13]
B
Okay. Big baby.
- [44:16]
A
Yeah, big and bossy. That's what he is. Well, thanks for your wonderful podcast. I love listening to it on long drives, and I also love feeling smart when I walk into a salon and they can't talk me into taking out a mortgage for some hair products. Here's my question. What should I look for in a shampoo or conditioner if I want to keep my color longer? I have brown hair with some gray, and I simply cover the grays with an Oliver Brown presumable color. My hair stylist wants me to buy Oribe, and while the smell is exceptional, the price is simply not affordable. I'm using Garnier Fructis sleek and Shine conditioner and a color safe shampoo by Nexxus that I got at Costco. So what should I be looking for or what should be missing in a formula to keep the color in my hair as long as possible? Thank you. And, oh, by the way, I still use VO5 hot oil treatment. I love it. I thought Perry would like that.
- [45:01]
B
I was responsible for that exact formula for many years. I mean, presumably they've changed the formula since I stopped working on it, but there was a time when you were using a Romanowski.
- [45:12]
A
Wow. Very cool.
- [45:14]
B
Which you know, in all of my formulas, I like to sneak, but, like, you know, my favorite number is 44. So in all of my formulas, I would try to sneak a 44 somewhere in it. So it'd be like a 0.44. Because usually you just go, oh, 0.5%. Yeah, no, I would just go 0.44%. Just so. So there's all these formulas at my old company that just have these random four fours around them because that was like my signature. So I had that in Viofi.
- [45:42]
A
I wish I had a formulation signature. I don't think I do. I mean, I try to use as few ingredients as possible.
- [45:49]
B
Sure, sure. You're a minimalist. Speaking of minimalist. Okay, color. This is right up. This is right up both of our alleys. Right. I did a whole study on what can you do to keep the color in your hair.
- [46:01]
A
Don't use water and.
- [46:02]
B
Right. Don't wash it. That's the best thing. And I guess probably wear a hat so it's not broken down by the sun, right?
- [46:11]
A
Yep. By the visible light spectrum in the sun and the ultraviolet light spectrum as well. But all joking aside, you know, it's actually true. Water does remove color from hair because dyes are water soluble. And when you color your hair, it gets damaged and it increases solubility to water on the hair fiber. And so water can kind of flood the hair, solubilize any dyes that are able to be removed, and wash them out. It's exacerbated by surfactants systems or shampoos. So water's a little bit better, typically, than a shampoo with water that you've rinsed out.
- [46:46]
B
Right. But I will say that the type of surfactant in your shampoo doesn't really matter. I mean, sulfates are not pulling the color out less than the non sulfated stuff. If you have a surfactant in there, it's going to pull it out a little more than water did. But the differences between surfactants is negligible.
- [47:06]
A
But what's not negligible is something like Amodimethicone, which is probably the gold standard for hair color retention, hands down. And you don't need a lot of it to be effective. The reason it works is it's positively charged and is able to stick to the hair fiber and prevent water from flooding the hair in the way that water floods the hair when you shower. And so for that same reason, it also gets a bad rap because it does stick to the hair. And people say, oh, it Builds up, but that's the whole point. You want it to. It also keeps hair soft. You mentioned you have some grays, gray hairs, even though you color them, it doesn't change the texture of the hair. So it will help soften your grays. And it's just a really great material. You don't need a ton of it eventually does wash off. So if you want to get rid of it just for a few washes, use something without Amodimethicone. But that's really what I would be looking for is that material.
- [48:01]
B
There are technologies I used to work on. I worked on a technology called Tresemme Colorlock which essentially was using a formaldehyde donor. I know people don't like the word formaldehyde, but formaldehyde reacts with your hair and it would create these bonding in your hair. And that's how I think like the Brazilian straightening was using high levels of formaldehyde because it derivatives.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.
- [48:29]
B
Right.
- [48:30]
A
It's a cross linker and it would.
- [48:31]
B
Right. It would react with hair protein and it does that. And I just found that this, this technology would lock the color in. If you just sprayed your hair with this one time and it would lock it in. But the product just didn't sell. So I did get a patent on it, but it didn't sell well.
- [48:49]
A
And now you can't use it in the state of Washington or if you want to be in Sephora Clean or Ulta Clean or all those things. So I think amodimethicone is the way to go and then just do good practices like.
- [49:01]
B
And wash your hair less.
- [49:02]
A
Yeah. Alternatively, you could also put your conditioner on first on, not on your roots but like maybe like a quarter of the way away from your roots and then all the way to the ends. And then you could shampoo at the base. And having that conditioner coating will also help mitigate some of the color loss. But given you have an all over brown, brown is actually a color that you don't notice fading too much on. If it fades uniformly, but if it's a color that doesn't fade uniformly, you would, you would definitely notice it.
- [49:36]
B
How do you feel about those coloring shampoos? Like should use a. One of those coloring shampoos to keep the color in.
- [49:44]
A
Kelly feels like her hair is not as vibrant. It definitely works because it essentially deposits these dyes temporarily on the outside of the hair. The problem is they. It stains your skin, it stains the shower. They can be a little bit messy to you. So I'm not a fan. Also, you can't have too many conditioning ingredients in these types of products because they compete for the same sights on the hair.
- [50:07]
B
Speaking of competing, I hear Baby C competing for your attention.
- [50:13]
A
I have to go. Thanks for listening, everyone.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah, if you get a chance, could you head on over to Spotify or Apple Podcasts and leave us a review or a comment? I always appreciate the comments over on the various podcast players and we do respond to them too. That's going to help other people find the show, ensure we have a full docket. Beauty questions to answer.
- [50:33]
A
And if you have a question, just record it on your smartphone and email it to thebeautybrainsmail.com or you can use the form in the show notes of this episode. But we also have this 1872 number. Maybe you haven't heard of it before, but essentially you just leave a voicemail we will never pick up. Trust us. 1-872-216-1856 wow.
- [50:55]
B
You know what? Maybe I'm gonna make a phone jinx for the Beauty Brains.
- [50:58]
A
You should. I tried to. I tried to make it like that song from the 80s. It didn't work. I'm sorry, guys.
- [51:05]
B
Sure.
- [51:05]
A
I was kicked out of choir in fourth grade, so please forgive me.
- [51:10]
B
Hey, you know, the Beauty Brains are also on Patreon. If you like what we do and appreciate that we have no advertising support. Well, you can help support the show yourself by heading over to patreon.com thebeautybrains and subscribe at any level. If you do that, you get your questions higher priority, so we're going to answer those more quickly and you get a transcript of the show.
- [51:32]
A
Also, follow us on our various social media accounts. On Instagram, we're at the BeautyBrains 2018 on X, we're at the Beauty Brains. On Blue sky, we're at the Beauty Brains. We have a Facebook page, a TikTok. And now we're also on YouTube.
- [51:45]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's just a static picture, but sometimes maybe I'll put some videos of us, but, you know, only.
- [51:52]
A
When we look cute. Yeah, exactly.
- [51:54]
B
Indeed.
- [51:55]
A
Well, thanks again for listening, everyone. And remember, be brainy about your beauty.
- [51:59]
B
Thanks everyone.
- [52:06]
A
Kittens.