480: The Chosen S5E7 — “The Upper Room, Part 1” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The BEMA Podcast

Episode 480: The Chosen S5E7 — “The Upper Room, Part 1” (Bonus Episode)

Released: October 27, 2025
Hosted by: Marty Solomon & Brent Billings

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode continues the BEMA team’s in-depth analysis of The Chosen Season 5, focusing on Episode 7—“The Upper Room, Part 1.” Marty and Brent examine the historical and textual context surrounding the depiction of Jesus' final Passover meal with his disciples, highlighting how the show brings to life the rabbinic dynamics, individual character arcs, and the underlying Jewish traditions often missed by Western Christian readings. The hosts celebrate the show's nuanced approach, wrestle with some artistic liberties, and reflect on the evolving portrayal of each disciple and their backstories, leading up to the pivotal events of Jesus’ final week.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Upper Room

• Opening Context ([00:26–03:32]):
  Brent references follow-up from past episodes, clarifying that the disciples stay in a house within Jerusalem’s Essene quarter, not an Essene’s actual home—thanks to Dallas Jenkins’ input.

  "The house that the disciples are staying at is not an Essene’s house. It is just in the Essene quarter." —Brent [02:59]

• Historical Observations
  • The significance of using priestly/Essenic locations and details, including home décor and Messianic banquet halls.
  • Discussion around John Mark—the gospel writer—being present in the episode and logistical details from the gospels about finding the room.

2. Jesus Washes the Disciples’ Feet — Dramatic Reenactment

• Re-imagining John 13 ([03:32–10:09])

  • The hosts praise how The Chosen captures the gravity, discomfort, and rabbinic dynamics of Jesus washing his disciples’ feet:

    “They really caught the gravity of that. I love the look on Judas's face, like, they did such a good job catching the dynamic. It’d be really easy to just spiritualize this... but they did a great job of, like, the room is stunned.” —Marty [06:43]

  • Examination of seating arrangements, cultural significance, and the layer added by Peter’s resistance.
    • Peter being seated in the “seat of least honor,” expected to do the washing first—deepening his protest when Jesus begins the act.

• Notable Quotes:

  “Will you just please do as I say and not object for once?” —Jesus (actor), echoed by Brent as the most relatable line [07:19]

• Servanthood & Leadership

  • Jesus’ take-home lesson: Service, even to one’s enemies, is the cornerstone of leadership.

    “The lesson is that I need you to lead as servants. And then there's a line, ‘you're even going to serve your enemies.’” —Marty [08:54]

3. Historical & Contextual Insights

• Essenes, The Man with the Water Jug ([11:30–15:41])
  • Debating plausible explanations for Jesus’ instruction to look for a man carrying water—drawing out why this would be odd and possibly linked to the Essene community’s all-male character.

  “Every Essene community believed in the Messianic banquet ... So go find an Essene because they have a room prepared for this very moment.” —Marty [13:37]

  • Brent and Marty discuss how The Chosen’s use of these details aligns (though sometimes differs) with their own research and teaching.

4. Disciple Characterization & Flashbacks

• Depiction of Individual Journeys ([26:17–33:32]):
  • The episode’s creative flashbacks humanize each disciple, showing formative traumas and triumphs. The hosts praise the way The Chosen balances group dynamics with personal development.

    “They’ve all had their path ... I love how they’ve done both. They haven’t gotten lost as a group of disciples. They’ve all been individuals at the same time.” —Marty [27:51]

  • Examples:
    • Z recalling a traumatic Roman attack.
    • Nathaniel’s struggle and his vision of the “building” motif.
    • Andrew & Philip’s early days with John the Baptist.
    • Thomas dealing with family loss.
    • Matthew’s first days as a tax collector, highlighting Gaius’s conflicted mentorship.
    • Little James’ disqualification from the temple choir due to purity codes—the show stresses it’s the human extension of Torah, not Torah itself, that creates barriers.

      “It was what we did with Torah that was the issue. And that’s a really key distinction.” —Marty [33:32]

5. Nuanced Storytelling

• Scene with Judas & Devorah ([20:39–21:54])

  • Judas’ sister is now convinced of Jesus as Messiah, making Judas’ internal conflict all the more tragic.

    “Maybe the most tragic Judas scene so far.” —Brent [21:16]

• Peter's Growth Shown Through Preaching ([19:40–19:59])

  • Peter “honing his skill” as a preacher makes Acts 2 more plausible, giving fuller context to his character arc.

• Reflections on Trusting the Writers ([34:04–36:21])

  • The hosts admit that The Chosen has earned their trust through careful, researched choices—even when they introduce lesser-known traditions or details they themselves hadn’t considered:

    "Over the course of five seasons, they have brought me ... to a place where we don't just give them the benefit of the doubt. We now assume that there's more stuff out there that we just haven't looked at or discovered..." —Marty [35:21]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Jesus: “Will you just please do as I say and not object for once?” (relatable leadership, [07:19])
• Peter: “Yes, but we set the table anyway.”

  “He can realize that he’s getting it, but still realize that he’s missing it. And then the line, we set the table anyway, so well delivered.” —Marty [25:20]

• Marty on The Chosen's impact:

  “You can credit The Chosen ... [for] the way that they've been able to depict the person of Jesus ... man, have they won people over by depicting Jesus the way they have.” [19:09]

• Marty, on the show’s historical rigor:

  “The Chosen has not given in to ... pop hysteria about what nights was it ... They've just not bought into any of that pop hysteria, TikTok workup about what day of the week it is, which I really appreciated.” [23:32]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:26 — Dallas Jenkins clarification: “Essene quarter, not an Essene house.”
• 03:32 — Jesus enters and prepares to wash the disciples’ feet.
• 06:43 — Analysis of John 13 scene, rabbinic implications.
• 08:54 — The lesson of servanthood and serving enemies.
• 11:30–15:41 — Man with the water jug & Essene background.
• 19:09 — The Chosen’s depiction of Jesus praised.
• 20:39 — Judas’ encounter with his sister.
• 22:37, 25:20 — Peter’s insight: “Yes, but we set the table anyway.”
• 26:17–33:32 — Flashbacks to disciples’ lives and callings.
• 34:04 — Peter: “Don’t underestimate Thaddeus.”
• 35:21 — Trust in The Chosen’s team hard-won through their research.

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Episode Tone & Language

• Warm, curious, and reverent—celebratory of The Chosen’s careful engagement with the text and history.
• Occasional playful banter, especially about word choices (e.g., “penultimate” joke [00:17]), pop culture (“Fate of Iscariot” song parody [24:19]), and podcast inside jokes.
• Honest about differences between their own research and the show’s decisions—always with nuance and respect.

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Summary in a Nutshell

Marty and Brent dissect The Chosen’s penultimate Season 5 episode, teasing out the profound textual, historical, and character-driven moments of Jesus' final Passover meal. The Chosen’s attention to rabbinic dynamics, Jewish background, and the disciples’ inner lives is lauded, as are the show’s meaningful liberties with gospel details. Subtle backstories for each disciple, the seriousness of the upcoming betrayal, and the theological nuances of purity codes and leadership serve to reframe how listeners might engage with familiar biblical stories. The hosts express admiration for The Chosen's scholarship and storytelling—and excitement for where the story leads next.

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Transcript

[Marty Solomon]

Foreign.

[Brent Billings]

This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our analysis of season five of the Chosen with a discussion of the seventh and penultimate episode.

[Marty Solomon]

Penultimate. Now that you've taught me what that means.

[Brent Billings]

I like to throw it in there.

[Marty Solomon]

I love it. That's good.

[Brent Billings]

It's a great word. People should use it more often.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. Two more episodes in this season which feel like they just go together. It's almost like a two parter of a one episode to me. But.

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah, no, they are literally titled that. The Upper Room Part one and the Upper Room Part two.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right. Totally. Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Maybe that's why it feels that way. Your feeling is appropriate. I do have a couple of follow up items though. I went back and looked at season two, episode five, which is when Z gets called. They didn't even call him Z back then. They were calling him Simon. So it took me a minute to find it in my notes because I just had him as Simon, but he's looking pretty scruffy. It's just wild to go back to those earlier episodes. It's like, oh, they actually, like, they evolved their look quite a bit over the course of several seasons.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

But Jesus and Z are discussing his brother Jesse and says something like, not the last of the trouble I intend to cause. Jesus says that. And Jesus asks Z for his weapon. He throws it into the water. And then Z says, I love this line in retrospect. He says, without my dagger, why do you need someone like me? Which is Judas's perspective now.

[Marty Solomon]

Wow.

[Brent Billings]

A lot of them have gone through this thing where it's like, okay, I thought that I was bringing this to the table and if I'm not doing that, then what am I doing here? So I loved that. But then Z was like, well, if people find out what you're doing, they might try to stop you. And Jesus is like, well, what are you going to do about it? I guess we'll find out when that day comes. And then Atticus, who is looking crazy young, comes out after they leave and he does pick up the dagger. But then I was looking at the. I took some screenshots and was comparing the daggers and I don't even. I don't think it's the same prop. It's similar, but I don't think it's the same one. So I just don't. I don't know what to think.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And I, Yeah, I. You actually sent me some clips before we recorded here. So I was able to go back and look at some of those screenshots and clips and. Yeah, I'm with you. I don't know. Like, when I go back and I watch the scene, I'm like, is it. Is like a vision? Like, is there a literal knife sitting there or is it what, Z's. Is he seeing it?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Because why in the world would Atticus carry that around? It just doesn't.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

I just can't imagine Atticus caring.

[Marty Solomon]

But the fact that he picked it up earlier only makes me wonder that. Because, you know, he picked it up and.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Seems like he had it and so. Just so, so interesting.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Because if it's a literal dagger sitting there, then he leaves it. You know, he leaves it and. But anyway, yeah, doesn't bother me. It's intriguing.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So the other thing is, we set up our recording with Dallas Jenkins in the meantime, and he has listened to our first episode and has clarified some things for us and said that the house that the disciples are staying at is not an Essene's house. It is just in the Essene quarter.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

And I actually will just leave it at that for the moment because we're going to talk more about that as we discuss this episode.

[Marty Solomon]

Sure. Yeah. That's actually helpful to know that's how they're putting it out there. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

So we start here with Mark bringing Jesus into the upper room.

[Marty Solomon]

John Mark, Traditionally the gospel writer, John Mark would be.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm assuming who this is. Which I was like, oh, cool, Cool.

[Brent Billings]

Working well in the episodes, as far as I could tell, they only ever refer to him out loud by the name Mark.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

But the IMDb listing has him as John Mark.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, well, there you go.

[Brent Billings]

For the credit. So I don't know how official that is, but that is how he is credited.

[Marty Solomon]

I like it.

[Brent Billings]

So he brings Jesus into the upper room. Jesus sends him down to you with his parents, and he's like, oh, sure, I was going to help. He's like, no, I got it, I got it. So then Jesus dresses down and starts grabbing all the stuff to wash the feet. The disciples are like, whoa, somebody is going to be up here to help with that. He's like, no, no, no. And they're like, whoa, hold on. Everybody's. You know, everybody has their reaction to that. This is all John 13 stuff. But in the text of John 13, Jesus gets up from the meal, but in this case, he's walking into the meal. And I don't know how you might Think about that. If that changes anything as far as where the foot washing falls within the meal. Not that it's particularly explicit, but it's just sometime during the meal.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

According to the text.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And it's. You can do it a few different ways. Brent, you've done so many different Seders with me. You know that part of what I see happening is there's a part in the Seder. Do we know if it's Second Temple? It's hard to know. But there is. In the. In at least the medieval Seder, there's a second washing which would happen during the meal. And that's where I see Jesus doing. This is kind of more towards where the conversation happened with Judas in the last episode. Ish. And it's really neither here nor there. It's not a big deal one way or another. If it is that, it gives even more weight to why Peter. I guess a lot of people on the podcast probably haven't even seen my Seder, so they don't even know some of the material we're talking about here. But in my understanding, or in the way that I pitch it, I think that I love the seating arrangement. I've already commented on that. They have. He has John on his right and Judas on his left. I think that's spot on. He has Peter on the far left, which I think is also spot on. That would mean that Peter is in the seat of least honor. And it would have been Peter's job to do this first foot washing. If that's the case, and Jesus gets up later for the second washing and starts to wash feet again, it adds a whole nother layer of why Peter's so upset. Because Peter's saying, like, wait a minute, I already did this. If I did it wrong, like, just. Just wash all of me. Like, I did not. Whatever I did, I did not mean for you, Rabbi, to get up and start washing feet. I thought I was doing. And Jesus is trying to explain him like that. It's not at all what I'm doing. So where you put it changes a couple of those layers. But I did not have. I loved. I mean, they really drilled the rabbinic dynamics of Jesus washing feet in this scene. And you haven't even made it through the whole scene yet. But he just keeps saying, it's all right, it's all right. And just like, I love. They really caught the gravity of that. I love the look on Judas's face, like, they did such a good job catching the dynamic. It'd be really easy to Just spiritualize this and whatever. But they did a great job of, like, the room is stunned. Like, Jesus has to get them to sit down. I loved that. They did a really good job with that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And Nathaniel, John's like, I think one of the servants is going to be up to. To do that. And Nathan is like, yeah, some of our feet are pretty dirty.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And it just kind of like, you know, rubbing it in Jesus's face unintentionally. And then he realizes, like, oh, I'm telling my rabbi. I'm, like, particularly bad here. But yeah. In Jesus's attempts to get them to actually listen and sit down, he says perhaps the most relatable line in the entire show. Will you just please do as I say and not object for once?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And I feel that to my core at this stage of my parent, one.

[Marty Solomon]

Of those chosen T shirts they could make right there.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So big James sits down first. Jesus thanks him, and then that gets a bunch of others to sit. Although, like, the other side of the table, they kind of remain standing to, like, watch and see what's going on here. James hesitates a little bit. Jesus reassures him. Peter's pacing around in the background as this whole thing's going on. Then he moves on to Thomas. Thomas hesitates. Peter's gathering supplies at this point. And then little James is like, are you sure? Are you sure? And Jesus says, absolutely. He quotes Isaiah 52, how beautiful are the feet as he is washing James. And then he kisses James foot, which I think that's the only one he did that on. We don't get to see him wash every single disciple, but he does that for James. And then he moves on to Judas. Judas tries to object, struggles with the whole thing throughout, but then does thank Jesus at the end. And then Peter rushes out at this point to wash Jesus and strongly objects to being washed by Jesus. And Andrew's like, dude, come on, man. And then Jesus, you know, just puts them all in their place at this point. And Peter's like, okay, fine. Well, how about then my hands on my head too? And he's like, oh, no, no, no, you guys, come on. This is just a symbol. This is whatever. But what you need to take out of this is that you should wash one another and you should lead as servants.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I liked how, like, when you don't have the layers that I was talking about from my perspective earlier, I liked how they pitched this Peter moment. I like how that came across. I liked how they framed the lesson here. The lesson is that I need you to lead as servants. And then there's a line, you're even going to serve your enemies. And they catch it. And they're like, wait, what? Which, as this scene closes, what I loved about that is there are these things that Jesus is dropping into this, into these lessons, into this conversation, into this Seder experience that night, that in the moment, they are not catching, they do not understand. And you can imagine later on when they think back to this night, all of a sudden it's going to make so much more sense. And I just liked how you can feel that in this scene, things that they don't get that aren't resolved, that when they think back, I just. I just like that dynamic of, yeah, this night was full of those moments of, like, in the moment, even as they're walking out to the garden, or like, they don't. It's not even registered. It's not. But when they thought back later, they went, oh, my goodness, what a meal, what an evening, what a lesson. So, yeah, absolutely. That's great.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And so much is happening. It's all. It's all kind of fast and furious. And they. Yeah, even the stuff that they do notice, they don't even get time to, like, process and get some sort of response to.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Before the next crazy thing happens. So.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

And then we are into the credits. So here we have a slight flashback. We're moving backwards in time, but we're getting closer and closer to everything moving forward in one direction. But Mark is rushing around, setting up the triclinium. And Yakim, who's Mark's dad, asks him what he's doing. Mark explains how he has another vision. He had, apparently, a vision that led them to getting the house that they're in in the first place. And now he has a fresh one about this table. So he's setting it up, and they leave the house. They're going to go find some more preaching, but they instead find some graffiti on the wall of their house. And Yakim is concerned about the risk to their family. It says, Jesus is Messiah. And he's like, we're lucky it doesn't say Jesus is king. The Romans already would have taken us out. And Mark is sent to get water, which matches part of his vision. So he's like, yeah, okay, I'll go get the water.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. So again, there's just different ways. And this doesn't bother me. Like, this is not. Like, I frame this differently, I teach this differently. And so I'm bugged by this. Again, it's one way to make sense of, in a plausible way, how some of these details come together. The idea of a vision. So we heard from before the spoiler horn went off, you shared that Dallas says they're not staying in an Essene's house, but they're in the Essene quarter, which makes a ton of sense because I was assuming when that happened that what they were going to do is they were going to make the upper room where they have their supper the same house they're staying in, which would have made sense.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

I thought that's where we were headed. And I'll tell you more why in just a moment. But then when they all of a sudden are finding a new place, I'm like, oh, wait, so they're in the essaying quarter, but they're not. So that threw me. But in the midst of all of that, in these episodes, it dawned on me that you have a home that's really elaborate. What's the word?

[Brent Billings]

Opulence. Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. But it has the pagan imagery and the mythology on the wall, and that would be unexpected for an Essene, maybe, but definitely expected for the priesthood. So the Essene quarter, where you probably have a lot of priestly houses, that fits. Like, I totally. I was appreciating some of those elements in completely unique ways. What strikes me as so close but so different from what I usually teach is the reason that Jesus tells them to look for a man carrying the water jug. I think we talked about this in session three. Is so in the Chosen, they've done it like, the mom's out, he has a vision, and the mom's out doing something in the market, so he has to go get the water. Because typically that would have been a woman's job in their culture.

[Brent Billings]

They needed the water urgently to wash off the graffiti, Correct?

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. And she's not there to go get it, so he sends her. So that's why there's a man. Because that's going to be the. When people read the thing, Jesus says, look for a man carrying a water jug. What we typically don't catch right off the bat is a man carrying a water jug is going to be an odd thing.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

So then we assume, oh, Jesus just kind of has those God goggles on and he's telling him there's going to be a man carrying a jar of water. Well, I think Jesus is telling them because you know how I feel about God goggles. And I haven't talked about it in a while, everybody, so calm down. But I believe Jesus is saying, go find an Essene, because the Essene communities, we struggle to know whether or not they had any women involvement. As far as we know, they're a male only community. And so you're going to have men carrying the jar of water. Why that matters is because every Essing community believed in the Messianic banquet. And almost every essaying community we've ever found has a Messianic banquet hall. That's what Jesus knows. Jesus isn't like, you know, peering into the future. Jesus is saying, go find an Essene because they have a room prepared for this very moment. They have a messianic banquet hall that they've reserved for this. So go find a nesting community, because that's where we can do the Passover. And it's going to have all this, like, it's going to have some teeth to it. It's okay. I teach that differently. But we were like, so close. Like, we have Essenes and Essene quarters and houses. And it makes sense for me that John Mark actually loved that connection because somewhere John is connected to priestly connections. So John Mark and priestly connections and Johnson of Zebedee. It was all working for me. Just a couple dots that I would have drawn differently. But we're so close. So close again, the right historical details.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. The idea of that totally gives me chills.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, it's another layer.

[Marty Solomon]

The.

[Brent Billings]

The Essenes are just so I just. Being in Qumran.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Like, studying the. The dedication that they had and the idea that it's like Jesus can say, like, go find this person, because they're going to be ready. They're.

[Marty Solomon]

That.

[Brent Billings]

It doesn't matter which one you find. Yes. Just find one. Because they're that dedicated. They will be ready.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

I love that.

[Marty Solomon]

And they eat and they dine in that Messianic banquet hall, envisioning that Messianic banquet. So. Yeah. It's just such a strong, powerful thing.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. Good.

[Brent Billings]

I like it.

[Marty Solomon]

It's okay. He goes to get water. I'm tracking with him. I'm there for it. We're so close that I'm happy. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

So then we have Bab James at the market having a drink, and Amnon approaches. They kind of make eye contact. James leaves. Amnon follows him. James sees Coffney. Then he finds Peter, who's preaching. Peter just keeps talking, and James is like, dragging him away, and he's like, hey, coffee's working with Rome. I don't know what's going on here. They go into the house the disciples are setting up for the seder. And James is like, we can't have the seder here. This is the gentile house. And then they want to find Jesus, presumably to talk to him about the coffin situation. They won't tell John what's going on, but John follows them. So now it's Peter, James and John. They find Jesus, and Jesus like, cuts off the whole thing. He sends them to what he says is the southern portion of the upper city to find a place for the meal. And like, when you look at maps of Jerusalem from the time of Jesus, some of them have just upper city and lower city. And some of them break the upper city portion into the Essene quarter in that lower portion. So that all tracks.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. Yep.

[Brent Billings]

The house of Caiaphas is shockingly close.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

Like the traditional location for Caiaphas house.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

The traditional location for the upper room. Shockingly. Like maybe a two minute walk.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Like I'm. I'm looking at the map, trying to think like, okay, here's where we go to Moshe's shop and here's where the wall is and all this. And I'm like, that can't be more than like a two minute walk between those locations. Which is just crazy to me to think about.

[Marty Solomon]

And even more fun in the chosen setting because they're trying to find Jesus.

[Brent Billings]

And he's literally like, you know, under their nose. So Matthew 26 is a little vague on these details. Mark 14 says that Jesus sends two disciples to find the man carrying water. Luke 22 actually names Peter and John as the two disciples. They end up taking Thaddeus with them, which I think is plausible. It doesn't say that, like, Jesus sent the two, but that doesn't mean they couldn't ask others to go with them.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

What I think is weird about this whole thing is that John does not attest to this story as being one of the two sent to find the room. Like, why doesn't John talk about this in his Gospel? And maybe it is that Essene thing where it's like, well, of course they had it. Like, that wasn't weird to me.

[Marty Solomon]

Right. Sure.

[Brent Billings]

I knew they would have that. I don't know. So I have more things to think about based on everything you just said. And then James comes back to the other disciples and shares this plan where they're going to go separately to the dinner and sneak around the city a little bit.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I've already talked about most of my notes for this scene. I just have a few fun notes about when Peter. And when they show up to Jesus, one of the things that struck me is Peter mentions like, oh, sorry, I was out preaching. And Jesus's response is like, yeah, I know. Like, he was like, excited, like, yeah, he wasn't like, roll his eyes like, yeah, I know, I know you're out there preaching, you dumb, dumb. And I just love, I love that picture and that image because we're watching it and we're like, oh, Peter's kind of a knucklehead and he's learning and we, like, we're there for it. Like, we're, we're, you know, I'm not against him preaching, but we just kind of like roll our eyes like, oh, here's Peter trying to do his best. But Jesus literally sees it as Peter's trying to do his best. And I, I love the look on his face and the tone and then the joking. He had all this joking about, like, oh, it's Passover.

[Brent Billings]

I did.

[Marty Solomon]

That's tonight. I love that. Which is not the first time that's happened either. But just some fun notes of. Again, part of what I hear everywhere that I go when I talk to people about the chosen is how they've been able. And, and, and you can credit the chosen. I think you also have to credit Mr. Rumi. But the way that they've been able to depict the person of Jesus is just such an important thing to a production like this. And man, have they won people over by depicting Jesus the way they have.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And a couple things I appreciate about this, the idea that Peter would be preaching and like honing this skill makes like, okay, so he's gonna have a big crowd.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

By the time we roll around to acts.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

Acts two makes a whole lot more sense if, if Peter has been doing stuff for a while.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, totally.

[Brent Billings]

And then, then stuff culminates. And then the other thing, going back to the foot washing scene and the idea of Peter being a knucklehead, like, it would be so easy for the rest of the disciples to be like, come on, Peter, don't be stupid. Like, this is what Jesus said. Like, yep, yeah, we're all uncomfortable with this, but just give the program. And Andrew is ribbing him, of course, as his brother.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

But nobody else. Like Jesus said, he's like, he's obviously set aside as this like, special role. Like, we don't fully understand it.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

We see that Peter tried something. It didn't work. It's like, oh, sorry, but we're not going to. Like, nobody's given him A hard time about it because I think they're all kind of with him in some respects.

[Marty Solomon]

Totally. Yep. Absolutely. Great point.

[Brent Billings]

So then we jump over to Judas. He's walking through the market or whatever and Devorah, his sister, finds him. She's like, hey, you were totally right. This guy really is the Messiah. I saw you guys walking in, we had the palm branches. She's just fully convinced at this point of who Jesus is. And Judas is like very uneasy about the whole thing, doesn't really know what to say. The whole scene is extremely awkward. And Devorah is like, you seem worried, like what? Why aren't you more excited? And it's just maybe the most tragic Judas scene so far.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, it's one of those scenes that is unnecessary on a logical. But was just as far as character development or storyline. It just added depth and color to where Judas is at. Reminds you of his, like it humanizes him. It reminds you of his story, his family, where he comes from. Like my kids and I were as we watched the scene, we were remembering seasons ago when he leaves her and who is she? Oh yeah. Like it was just such a well placed scene to tie things together. And again, like you said, rip your heart out in the right kind of way. Watching where Judas is at and what's happening. Totally.

[Brent Billings]

Then we're over with Peter and John and Thaddeus following Mark and they approach Yakim and tell them what they're there for. And he's absolutely stunned when they say what they say. And inside, John and Peter are making preparations. Mark goes on doing some other stuff, shares his excitement. Peter kind of like starts to catch the wonder of the moment. Like, I can't believe we're doing this. I can't believe this is like, I can't believe we're the people. I can't believe we're here. I can't believe this is happening. And John's like, yeah, but like. But I just still feel a little uneasy about this whole thing. And I loved this line from Peter. He says, yes, but we set the table anyway.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was really, really good. That line of just look at how far we've come, look at where we've come from. So well placed both for the story itself, but also just our own personal self reflection, the ways that we change, the things that Jesus does, the journey that we've been on. A well delivered line for sure. I also thought it was interesting. Well, I don't know about interesting. The master comes in and begs discretion. The master of the I Thought that was really good. I also had a note in the middle of this scene where I realized what I really appreciate is the Chosen has not given into, like, all of this. What do I want to call it, this pop hysteria about, like, well, what nights was it? Was it Thursday night or Wednesday night? Because it's three days and three nights in the tomb. And everybody starts freaking out about how this week works because we just don't really appreciate the historical, the Jewish perspective or what the text literally says, what the text literally doesn't say. And it's just really popular right now, I think because of TikTok and everything else. Everybody's really been out of shape about. Well, you know, this actually happened on Wednesday night. Not. And the Chosen has just not bought into any of that. Like, it's just doing the traditional. This is. This is Thursday night. They're eating the Passover Seder. We'll see what they do at the crucifixion the next season and potential sacrifices or anything happening in the temple, who knows? But so far, they just have not bought into any of that pop hysteria. TikTok workup about what day of the week it is, which I really appreciated.

[Brent Billings]

Speaking of pop culture, though, Marty, I was thinking as I was preparing this episode that I want to do a parody version of a new Taylor Swift song called the Fate of Iscariot.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, no. Oh, Brent. I don't know if I'm proud or if I'm just disturbed, but so good. So good.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And then I do. I'm just checking out my notes here. I have the same notes about that line you pointed out.

[Brent Billings]

This is for sure led by Adonai, so clearly prescribed by Jesus. So why aren't you smiling?

[Marty Solomon]

I was going to ask that very same thing.

[Brent Billings]

I've been paying attention, Peter, and I feel like I'm starting to understand him.

[Marty Solomon]

More, which is drawing us closer. But.

[Brent Billings]

I'm still missing some things, such as why he has arranged all of.

[Marty Solomon]

This tonight and why we are here right now.

[Brent Billings]

Yes, but we set the table anyway.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes. Even though I'm blind as to why. Because John is telling Peter that he's still struggling. He's starting to understand Jesus. He still doesn't get some things, which I thought, what a great, healthy perspective. Like, he can realize that he's getting it, but still realize that he's missing it. And then the line, we set the table anyway, so well delivered. And then I think right after that, I think it's John that. That says to Peter, he's sad. Like But Jesus, like, the thing that's getting him right, the thing that he can't figure out is he sees the sadness of Jesus. And I thought, man, that's a great line too, as a really. A really just almost simplistic, crude way to phrase it, but, like, boom, nailed it. Got it.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And that comes back in the next episode, too.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know exactly how to read that, where Jesus says that to John. Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that more in the next episode. But, yeah, that's a good point that. That John says that here.

[Marty Solomon]

But then we have all these cool flashbacks, which I thought was a really cool ending to this episode with all these back and forth. It's great.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So we start with Z in the market, and he sees some blood draining from some. I don't know if they're intended for sacrifices or just intended for food, but he sees this blood running down the street. And then he flashes back to some sort of, like, Roman attack or whatever on him and a couple of his friends in a house. And Z is like, I'll. I'll take. You know, I'll take them on, you guys. Get out of here. But in their attempt to escape, the Romans figure out they're not pushing against the door anymore. They run around, and the two guys die. And then Z ends up being saved in this situation.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And even what he said as far as like, oh, you've got. You've got more work to do, or whatever. And he was the one who had more work to do.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well played. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Then we have Nathaniel, who sees an instrument being played, demonstrated, whatever. And then he flashes back to his study room where he's working on his architecture. He gets frustrated about something, takes a break to see someone playing an instrument. Out the window, there's a woman singing Psalm 130. And then he receives a letter from Philip. Philip's like, yep, keep studying. We're doing all this stuff, but it's not quite time for you to join us yet. And then Nathaniel, back in the present, looks up and notices the temple architecture. And he's like, yeah, I didn't build that, but we're doing something here. We're building something anyway.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I kind of have. I think my notes are in respect to all these different stories. We've got a spoiler alert. We got a few more coming. One of the things I love about what the Chosen has done is they keep depicting this growing community throughout each season of this Havre. Like they're growing together, but they've also maintained this sense of individuality. Like, they all had their path, their path that brought them to Jesus. Their path while they've been following Jesus. I love how they've done both. They haven't gotten lost as a group of disciples. They've all been individuals at the same time. They've grown as a group of disciples, as a community, and I really, really like that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So then the other side of Nathaniel, we see Romans coming through the street, and Andrew and Philip are walking. They stand off to the side. Then we flashback to them walking with John the Baptist, and there's some road construction happening by the Romans. John confronts them, the Romans mock them. This is all kind of Matthew 3, Mark 1, Luke 3 stuff. And, yeah, that kind of covers Andrew and Philip's part of the backstory there. Presumably that was kind of the same time frame as. As when he sent that letter to Nathaniel.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I had to appreciate the fact that they were candied locusts. They fried an olive. Something that they said. I was like, oh, goodness, this is. Yeah, this is well played. I have thoughts of whether or not they're actually eating locusts or not, but if they are eating locusts, which would be a standard way of understanding that, then I thought that was. It made me grin as I watched them.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, if you're. If you got to eat a locust, I suppose eat. You might as well candy it.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Still have a hard time imagining that being particularly appealing, but, you know. So then Thomas sees someone breaking a dish off of a cart. And then that flashes back to in the house with his parents. His dad's kind of come into some trouble somehow. There was some sort of a fight between some things, and he's like, yeah, I think they're going to come and ask me some questions, and I might not see you for a while. Then the Romans barge in, carry him off, and then a dish is broken.

[Marty Solomon]

On the way out.

[Brent Billings]

I don't fully understand that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I got the impression that he was in the middle of a. He just happened to be in the middle of a brawl where there was a dispute, I was assuming, between other Jews. But then the Romans show up, which may. Maybe it had. Maybe it was with it with Gentiles, and he's in big trouble. What I loved about it was it just connects you. Some of these stories are really hard and violent. Z's story, super violent. Thomas's story, super traumatic. And so for those of us watching, we can really relate to the fact that these were real human beings with real Human stories and real human traumas and real human histories, as far as I'm aware. Like, none of these things are central to their character development necessarily, but just added color at a really great moment. And the chosen arc to, like, oh, yeah, people. People in the stories.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And the callousness of the Roman Empire and, you know, living the realities of living into their occupation and whatever. And.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

Then we have Matthew walking by the collection booth, and he sees a man spit on the. On the tax collector. And then he gets a flashback to his first day in the booth. And Gaius is kind of trying to tell him how everything works a little bit. And Gaius tries to show a little bit of his Roman power, but you also see his sort of underlying compassion that he has for Matthew there.

[Marty Solomon]

I just missed Gaius when I saw that flashback. I'm like, oh, man, I want him in my scenes again. Yep.

[Brent Billings]

Then we have little James, and he is walking by a choir singing. And flashes back to his cantor training. Some unknown song. I couldn't figure out if that was a psalm. I had no luck looking that one up for some reason. So not sure what they were singing. But they conclude their training and James wants to join the temple choir. Everybody's picking where they're going to go do their service. And he says he wants to go to Jerusalem. And he's like, no, man, you can't do that. He gets out the scroll of Leviticus. He's like, here's what it says. And James is like, yeah, but that's just for the priests. He's like, yeah, but they've extended the rules to all this other stuff. And he's like, fine, I don't want your letter. I'm just going to go like, they'll hear me singing and they'll want me anyway. They'll put me in the back. It'll be okay. So he goes towards Jerusalem, and I don't know where he was when he started this journey, but he has to make camp. And Thaddeus finds him sleeping on the ground. Jesus comes in, sits next to him, asks for his story. It was a cool moment. Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, his story is one of the best and. And a cool moment and a cool scene I appreciated as a theologian and a historian that, again, they brought up. I think this is probably. I mean, I don't know if I would credit Rabbi Sobel with all of this, but probably part of what he's really stressed is that the problem isn't Torah. The problem is how they've taken Torah and extended it in their Tradition and in their application. So, yes, these rules are against the priesthood. It shouldn't apply to the singers in the temple. And yet that's what happened to the purity code. I think Christians typically say, oh, yeah, Torah used to be that way, but Jesus came and we kind of did away with that old Torah stuff. And I think they've done a really great job saying, no, no, no, Torah was never the issue. It was what we did with Torah that was the issue. And that's a really key distinction. And it came up again in that scene. And I'm like, yeah, way to put words to that.

[Brent Billings]

And then to close out this episode, we have the disciples in the upper room. They're waiting for Thaddeus. John spots some soldiers. And I don't know what they're. I don't know what they're thinking. They're all standing in the window. And then the soldiers, like, come a little more into view and they just like, how can we look the most suspicious possible? And they duck down. But, you know, the soldiers aren't there for them, so it all works out. And everybody's like, well, what's going on with Thaddeus? Why is he taking so long? And I'm curious about this line coming from Peter, but he's like, don't underestimate Thaddeus.

[Marty Solomon]

I thought the same thing. And part of this. I'm gonna have to probably shut off this conversation until the next episode, because it'll be the next episode where we pick this up again. But I've always assumed, and I'm betting there's probably more tradition behind all this. Like, they must be tapping into tradition somewhere about who Thaddeus is, because they really give in this next episode. Thaddeus a place. And I always kind of use Thaddeus as the joke because we don't know anything about Thaddeus on the surface. He's very rarely mentioned in the biblical text. He's one of those kind of underappreciated, under mentioned disciples. But they've given him a place, and especially in these two episodes. So when Peter said that, I had the same reaction. I'm like, oh, really? Why? Who is Thaddeus? What is his? And the next episode will just be fantastic, working him into the beginning. But I don't have answers to that either. And I have not looked into church history or tradition to see what could be there yet.

[Brent Billings]

So my only assumption is that the Chosen is doing that for a reason.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

It's got to be something to learn behind that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

So without further ado, let's close this episode down and move on to that next one.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. Well said. And by the way, you said something and I wasn't gonna say something, but now I'm here, so I'm gonna say it.

[Brent Billings]

We're here.

[Marty Solomon]

Kudos to the chosen, because over the course of five seasons, they have brought me, I'll let you speak for yourself. But they've brought me, I think, us to a place where we don't just give them the benefit of the doubt. We now assume that there's more stuff out there that we just haven't looked at or discovered that's really saying something. Because I'm not that kind of personality. I'm typically going to assume and be pretty critical of. Oh, I'm sure they're just doing that because of blah, blah, blah. But over the course of these seasons, they have now proven me wrong enough. And you've pointed this out, too. Like, we go back to the Bible and we're like, oh, look, it's right there in the biblical text that we've given our lives to study, and we just never noticed it. That's happened enough that I now am so slow to be like, I think there's probably something here. I don't know. So well done to them because that's something I would not. I would not be the one to quickly assume that. But they've made me assume it.

[Brent Billings]

Yep. So we'll just leave it at that. And people can go to baymondiscipleship.com if they need to get in touch with us or find ways to support us, whatever, you know, thank you to all of you who do support us. We are thrilled to continue to study and learn and grow, and clearly we have a lot more of that to do. So thank you for enabling us to do that work and thank you for joining us in this wrestling match. Thank you for digging into the text with us and thank you for joining us on the podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.