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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
You're muted. Do you hear that?
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
Well, that would explain why I did my intro and you did not continue it. I thought you were just rearranging your document before you started talking. No, I think I nailed the intro though.
- [00:17]
Marty Solomon
So you just said that I did it. Okay.
- [00:19]
Brent Billings
All right.
- [00:20]
Marty Solomon
Should I. Yeah. Did you read it just like we had on there?
- [00:23]
Brent Billings
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah.
- [00:24]
Marty Solomon
Okay, nice.
- [00:25]
Brent Billings
That's good.
- [00:27]
Marty Solomon
That's got to make it into the blooper reel there.
- [00:30]
Brent Billings
You started moving stuff around in the document. I was like, oh, he decided last second that he wasn't quite ready. He wants to get everything in order before he starts talking. I was just like, surely start any second. All right, here we go. This is the main podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are looking at the third of Behemoth's four pillars being challenged by the historical setting and practice of discipleship.
- [01:08]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, it's our time for our third pillar. I'm just going to jump in by talking about where this became such a passion for me. But before I. I mean, I think a lot of the pillar discussions we've had in this series when it's just been my episode has been me just telling the story of where this shows up, why this is important to me since I'm kind of, I don't know, the creative mind behind these pillars that put them together. I just kind of feel like that's what I'm sharing. But this one has a story as well for me. But before I even get into it, I want to start with a whole bunch of disclaimers that I don't think I gave in our earlier journey. And when we do our reboot eventually of season three and then season four, I'll probably end up seeing softening a lot of my language. If you've been with us on this whole Baymont journey from front to back and journeying with us in real time, then you know that. Well, maybe you don't know if you've noticed, my language has softened a lot over the years in terms of discipleship. And what exactly are we talking about? And what exactly am I. I think calling for would be a. That'd be a heavy handed phrase. But what does that conversation look like? For me that has softened. I've gotten far less passionate. I'm not less passionate internally, but it's just. It's changed for me. I'm going to speak to some of that today. Part of it's going to start with these disclaimers. First of all, I think I could be more clear when I talk about discipleship and the methods and what it looked like back in Jesus's day. I could be more clear about what we know and what we don't know. We don't know a whole lot historically as far as, like, where can you plant your flag and know for a fact that this is exactly how it worked? There's a lot that we don't know. I have been accused, probably rightly so, at times, of just being far too generous with what I was taught in terms of what's called receptionist history. Like, there was an era of biblical history work where there was a lot of ideas that were crafted. I don't know if they necessarily belong to, like, a guy by the name of Edersheim. Edersheim was an early historical Jesus guy. He wrote, like, the Life of Times of Jesus, the Messiah, I believe is
- [03:25]
Brent Billings
the title of that book.
- [03:28]
Marty Solomon
And he was, in a lot of ways, the grandfather of a lot of historical Jesus study. Now, my teachers were shaped by key thinkers like Ray. Ray van der Lijn studied at Hebrew University during the era of Nehamsarna, and Shmuel Safray and David Flusser. I mean, these were big names in historical Jesus study. So we're not just like, somebody told somebody told somebody. My teacher is shaped by some of the greatest historical Jesus minds that were alive during his day. But it was still what might qualify as receptionist history. We're taking the pieces that we have, we're weaving them together. We're kind of building a tapestry, and that's what gets handed down, and we just kind of accept that. And somewhere along the way, historical criticism said, okay, do we know that? Or did we just accept what we were handed? And that's a good critique. There are good critiques. I think the critique of receptionist history usually overcorrects. So somewhere in the middle is probably a good place to land and probably more of what the. A lot of times I feel like what we're talking about when we talk about discipleship. A rabbi. What is a rabbi? What does a talmid? How did the system or the method work? What did it mean for disciples to follow rabbis? A lot of it comes down to semantics and what we mean, how broadly we may be using terms. And a lot of times, in spaces like Behemoth, you don't get a chance to define those things or talk about the specifics or the nuances, and all of that stuff matters. I know that Bema's audience is not full of scholars. I also know that Bema's audience is not void of scholars like true seminarians, true historians, true academics who live in that. In that world. And for all of you, these things matter. They matter, and they should, and they do. And I acknowledge that. And I've probably been too quick to just say, this is the way that it was. This is how it worked in Jesus's day. There's a lot of argument about how it worked in Jesus's day and what we're assuming. So I just want to say that up top, I'm going to try to soften my language of we know this, we know that, all those kind of things.
- [05:45]
Brent Billings
And I do feel like a lot of this has come out in the podcast at various points, but maybe just not prominently enough, considering how confident we are in some of these things.
- [05:56]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that what comes out of my mouth is not necessarily what's going on in my brain. Like, what comes out of my mouth has already run through the filter of, okay, I don't necessarily have to believe this was exactly how it worked, but what comes out of my mouth sure makes you think that way. And that's just a part of communication.
- [06:14]
Brent Billings
To me, this conversation was a lot more prominent in Israel and Turkey.
- [06:18]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [06:19]
Brent Billings
Where we're standing in a place and we're talking about how confident are we that the events we're talking about took place here?
- [06:25]
Marty Solomon
Sure.
- [06:26]
Brent Billings
And that same conversation applies to all these things, too. We just don't necessarily talk about it as much as maybe we should. Yeah.
- [06:33]
Marty Solomon
Very well said. And for some, if you're a real academic nerd, if you're not, just bear with me for five more minutes. But if you're a real academic nerd, I feel like there is some scholarly context that's super helpful that a lot of people don't know. If you're in academia, you know this, but if you're not, you probably don't know this. And that is what we call the quest for the historical Jesus. I'm going to have Brent throw a Wikipedia link in our show notes. It's going to basically give you just a great little Wikipedia summary of what the quest for the historical Jesus was. Throughout the 20th century, there were essentially three quests for the historical Jesus. Towards the beginning of the 20th century, there was this big question of, was Jesus even a historical character? Like, is there really a historical Jesus? And that led to what we might call the first quest for the historical Jesus. Like, we're trying to say with certainty and finitude, is that the right word? Finitude. Brent, I keep wanting to use that word. I want to know if I'm using it right. Finitude.
- [07:42]
Brent Billings
The state of having limits or bounds.
- [07:45]
Marty Solomon
Maybe not maybe. Maybe. That's what I mean.
- [07:49]
Brent Billings
You mean finality? Maybe.
- [07:50]
Marty Solomon
Maybe. Yeah, sure. Let's say that I'm glad the audience got to hear us go through that little ditty. Brent helps me with words. He's much kinder than Reed Dent is. I'll say it that way.
- [08:01]
Brent Billings
Reid Dent also knows a lot more words than I do, so I'm coming from a place of humility. That's right. I don't know either. Marty, that might be the right word. It might not.
- [08:10]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, well, the first quest was trying to say with certainty they were trying to find historical Jesus, which by the time the first quest was over, there was a name that greatly shaped historical Jesus study, which was the name of Schweitzer. You're going to hear the name Schweitzer all over the place. Schweitzer was essentially, basically towards the end of the first quest when people are saying, yes, he was a historical guy. That led to Schweitzer basically saying, not only was a historical guy, but this historical conversation had a lot of assumptions about eschatology and when the world was going to end. And Jesus and his disciples thought that the end of the world was imminent. And they were wrong about that. But there is a historical Jesus with historical conversation and historical, historical, historical. That quest kind of dies off. It gets picked up, I don't know, a little bit later with what's often called the second quest. There's a main voice that people often quote called Boltman. Called Boltman. His name was Boltmann. And he. Let's see, what was his. What's his first name? Rudolph. Rudolph Boltman. And he basically made the claim that it doesn't matter. The quest for historical Jesus is a futile quest. You're not going to find it. You can't really get anything of value out of it. All you really need, essentially, is good theology. Good theological study is what you need. Theology needs to be theology, not history. And so that was Bultmann. But that led to the second quest, and everybody kind of engaging that and arguing for and against that. And that led to a movement that basically said, okay, which parts of the gospel are really true? Like, which things did Jesus actually say and what things did the church put in his mouth? And there was a big quest about that, some saying more, some saying less. That was the second quest. It had a certain amount of value, but also kind of Petered out at some point. And then somewhere around the 70s. We spoke about this in session five. Towards the very end of session five, in our main body of work, you kind of stumble into what we call the third quest for the historical Jesus. And that takes on a little bit more of the flavor it builds off of the second quest. And now we have a lot more scholarship. We have a lot of things that have come out from the Dead Sea Scrolls. We literally know more about history, and that ends up shaping the conversation in really big ways. And the third quest for the historical Jesus, people like N.T. wright and all the folks that we love to quote, they're going to be children of that third quest for the historical Jesus. It's going to lead to, like, new perspective on Paul, and there's going to be all these children and grandchildren of the third quest for the historical Jesus, E.P. sanders. And all those names are going to come out of that. If you wanted to read a great summary of that, I would recommend going to Ben Witherington, the third. He has a book called the Jesus Quest. And it's a dated book, but it does a really good job summarizing essentially the third quest for the historical Jesus. Who are the main players? What are the main schools of thought? It's very academic, very nerdy, and very heady. But if you wanted to get into it, there you go. That basically gives you the backdrop of what lies behind. The reason why it's top of mind for me right now is I'm literally just wrapping up as we record this, my shelf, which if anybody could see me, Brent can see me. There's a shelf kind of up above my head. That shelf is my historical Jesus Quest for the Historical Jesus resource shelf. And I'm just getting done kind of working through all those resources. Sometimes for the second or third time, it's been a fun little ditty. So that's the backdrop, and I think that's probably good for disclaimers. I've spent more time than I wanted to doing that.
- [11:46]
Brent Billings
Sure, yeah.
- [11:47]
Marty Solomon
Brent's chuckle tells me, yeah, it's probably a good idea. We should move on. So there you go. You can sense my insecurity on an academic level when we start talking about history and Jesus. But what I do want to talk about is Second Temple Judaism. What did I encounter when I went over to Israel for my first trip in 2008 and then my return trip in 2010? What were the things that caught my attention about what I might call Second Temple Judaism, that age of Judaism that Jesus lives in post exile, post Babylon, pre destruction of the Temple, second Temple Judaism, what am I encountering? There are things that stood out to me. Number one, the institution of synagogue that radically changed Jewish culture. We can argue about the nuances of what synagogue was, how it operated. The more that we find in the world of archaeology, the more that my teachers are proven right, which I just love so much of the criticism that they received for receptionist history actually continues to be proven more and more true. But I digress.
- [12:49]
Brent Billings
Yeah baby.
- [12:52]
Marty Solomon
But the institution of synagogue brought with it a culture. That culture included teachers and students, rabbis and Talmudim. What do we know exactly about how they operated? We got bits and pieces. There was a commitment to cultural teaching and textual focus. When they came back from Babylon, they came back and constructed a different Judaism, not a whole different faith and religion. They just took Judaism to a practice and a level, a praxis that they had not been to before. And that praxis P R A X I S. That praxis had a method of leadership development. This is going to feel like it has echoes of scholasticism, but this is well before the age of scholasticism. This is well before western institutions of education take on that shape and that form. You have this concept of these disciples who give themselves every single day to following, literally following, not just following on Instagram, following as a social media observer, following as a student who sits in a classroom, but literally following these teachers, these little R rabbis around. And that's what I encountered in this method. When I looked at this method of what I was seeing in Israel and Turkey, I was just kind of overtaken by a few ideas that I had never been taught before in Bible college. I'm going to list three ideas here. Number one is the 24, 7, 365 nature. This was not show up on Tuesdays and Thursdays. This was not grab coffee on Friday morning at Starbucks. This was a come follow me. You're going to go where I go, sleep where I sleep, eat where I eat, travel where I travel. You're going to spend all day, every day, every day of the year for a few years with your rabbi. The second thing was the sense of imitation and mimicry. Like the very idea that you weren't just a group of free thinkers. Like in the Western world we all have to be free thinkers. Like we're not supposed to mimic and imitate because that would be conformist. We're non conformist. We're supposed to think for ourselves, we're supposed to be individuals. But in this world it was the opposite. You are not allowed to think for yourself until the rabbi told you you could. Until then, you were supposed to mimic, you were supposed to imitate. And that process of imitation was powerful. And the third thing was learning by doing, then possessing and then freely taking and building. So you imitate the rabbi and you learn by doing what he does. Then the rabbi essentially says, okay, now I'm going to let you take this for yourself and I need you to possess it. I need you to think for yourself. I need you to think on your own. And then I need you to not just think on your own and possess it. I need you to actually go engage and build and do something with it. I want to have you read some text here, Brent, so we can see these three ideas. So let's go back to this idea of 24, 7, 365. And I want to jump back to Matthew 4, where Jesus calls his disciples and just remind ourselves of stuff we talked about in past sessions. But let's just see this in action.
- [16:05]
Brent Billings
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers. Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake from for they were fishermen. Come, follow me, Jesus said, and I will send you out to fish for people at once. They left their nets and followed him. Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James, son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father, Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.
- [16:36]
Marty Solomon
Right. And we talked about an earlier session, session three. We kind of come back to it in session four, four, maybe five, when we're reviewing the pillars and we talk about the whole schooling system and what that meant that they were not in school, but they were out fishing and they were fishing with their father and all of those things, the cultural. And again, some receptionist history in there. But that cultural context for what's happening, the thing I wanted to just focus on here, they drop their nets. That's not just an in the moment thing. They leave this world of fishing and they leave to follow Jesus. John and James leave Zebedee. They're going on this, they're going on their own Jesus quest. They're going on a quest to follow Jesus wherever he goes, to do what he says, to learn from him every day, all day, for a few years. I don't know when they'll make it back home. That's what they're leaving for, is that 24, 7, 365. And that's what those passages tell us about. Well, how about the imitation and the mimicry, this idea of imitating and mimicking Jesus? Give us the great passage out of Matthew 14, Brent.
- [17:44]
Brent Billings
Immediately, Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side while he dismissed the crowd. After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
- [18:04]
Marty Solomon
Okay, so we have this. On one hand, you do what the Rabbi instruct you to do. You obviously don't not do what the Rabbi says because you're trying to imitate and follow him. When the Rabbi tells you to do something, you go do it. But whenever the Rabbi is engaging you in teaching, you're thinking, how can I mimic? How can I imitate? How can I follow? So he's told them to get in the boat. And they go get in the boat. And he goes up on the hillside to pray. And we're going to be told here that he watches them all night. And we've discussed this in past on the podcast. The idea here is that they're heading down the shoreline. They're not heading across the lake. That's where the Decapolis is. They're heading kind of down the shore of the lake, which is frustrating for them that the rabbis told them to get in a boat and go where they could easily walk. Like, they're like, rabbi, just let us walk to Bethsaida. And he's like, nope, I want you to boat there. So they have to get in a boat and they're like fighting against the waves, but they're sailing essentially down the coastline. And Jesus is up on the hill. Like, I've been up on that hill twice where I think Jesus probably would have been in the general vicinity, in the general area. He can see them. He's not watching through his God goggles. Like, he's not, like, watching through his divine sight, watching them all night. He could probably wave at them. They can probably see him up on the hillside. Here's the Rabbi. He's given them a task. They're rowing with all their might. He's just waving at him from the hill. I'm praying for you. You know, he's praying all night watching the disciples go ahead.
- [19:29]
Brent Billings
Shortly before dawn, Jesus went out to them walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. It's a ghost. They Said and cried out in fear.
- [19:39]
Marty Solomon
Now, they're not stupid. They're not stupid. They see somebody walking on a body of water. That's not normal. Yeah, we read this story. We're always like, they're so dumb. They thought it was a ghost. No, they saw somebody walking on the lake. That's not normal. So they're trying to put together what they're seeing. Go ahead.
- [19:57]
Brent Billings
But Jesus immediately said to them, take courage. It is I. Don't be afraid, Lord, if it's you, Peter replied, tell me to come to you on the water. Come, he said.
- [20:08]
Marty Solomon
So Peter says, all right. Okay, if that's really you. See, I know it's not you, Jesus, because if it were really you, you would want me to do the rabbinical thing. If you're a rabbi and you're walking on water, I know it's not you, Jesus, because you would want me to walk on water. You're not going to do something that you don't want me to imitate, that you don't want me to mimic, that you don't want me to do. So I know it's not you because you would want me to walk on water. And Jesus ends up calling Peter's bluff. He's like, oh, that's a good point, Peter. Maybe I wasn't even thinking about that. But I mean, that's a great point. Get out here and go ahead, do your walking. And he calls him out on the lake.
- [20:41]
Brent Billings
Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and beginning to sink, cried out, lord, save me. Immediately, Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. You of little faith, he said, why did you doubt? And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, truly, you are the Son of God.
- [21:06]
Marty Solomon
Right? So we have this story of discipleship and of imitation and mimicry. And note that it works. He gets out and he walks on the water. And we've done this lesson elsewhere, so I don't have to do this lesson here. My point is the imitation and the mimicry. But note that it works. Like Peter doesn't lose faith in Jesus. Jesus isn't sinking. Jesus is doing just fine. Jesus isn't who? He loses faith in Peter on one level, you could say it on one level, that Peter loses faith in himself. He loses faith that he can do the very thing that he's doing at that moment. So he loses faith in himself. So when Jesus pulls him into the boat and says, peter, why did you doubt? Why do you have such little faith? He's not chiding him for theological faith, lack of theological faith. He's chiding him for not believing that he can do what Jesus called him to do. Because there is a call to imitation and mimicry. And for all of us that think of discipleship, we think, well, I can't be like Jesus. Jesus was Jesus. I'm me. I think Jesus says, why would I call you to a discipleship relationship of imitation and mimicry when I believe you can do this, and you don't believe that you can do this? Let's do the last. I got three passages for this last one. The whole learning by doing, then possessing, then freely taking and building. Let's go to Matthew 16.
- [22:19]
Brent Billings
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, who do people say the Son of Man is? They replied, some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. But what about you? He asked, who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, you are the Messiah, the son of the living God. Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
- [23:07]
Marty Solomon
All right, so in this passage, there's this whole thing of giving them the keys to the kingdom. And we usually just read that as kind of like a passing phrase or a figure of speech. But a lot of historical Jesus scholars have pointed out that in rabbinical Second Temple Judaism, the idea of giving somebody the keys, the keys to the kingdom of God, or the keys to Torah, or. Or the keys to whatever means you are now allowed to think and interpret and teach on your own. You still have to teach completely aligned with your rabbi, but you're able to do your own thinking and your own speaking. Prior to that, all you can do is imitate. All you can do is mimic. All you're allowed to do in the rabbinical world is simply repeat what your teacher has said. I've heard my rabbi say this, but once you're given the keys, this is a phrase that essentially means, okay, now you can think and logic and reason Now I'm letting you engage the teaching and possess it for yourself. So that's this moment that Peter's just had with Jesus, where he's gone from one level of discipleship experience to the other, and the rest of the Havre gets to come with him. By the way, this you as a plural, like Jesus is saying, Peter is their representative. And the Havre is now taking the next step forward in their relationship with the. The Rabbi. So that's that. How about John 15? Let's go to verse 12.
- [24:24]
Brent Billings
My command is, love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends. For everything that I learn from my Father, I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit, fruit that will last. And so that whatever you ask in my name, the Father will give you. This is my love. Each other.
- [24:58]
Marty Solomon
So two things happen in that passage, Brent. One of them is this idea of friendship that is kind of another movement. Some may even say it's the next movement of the discipleship experience with their rabbi. First, you're just a student. All you're allowed to do is mimic and imitate. Then you're given the keys. You're allowed to think for and interpret for yourself and speak for yourself under the authority of the rabbi. Then the rabbi calls you friends, which at that point, he's essentially saying, we're now peers. I can remember when I had literal disciples in my campus ministry. I can think of Megan or I can think of Tyler. And there came a day where I commissioned them in a similar way to how Jesus commissioned their disciples. Because what I was saying to them was, you could keep following me. At that point, they were still working with us. They were still, you know, they were still around all the time. They weren't leaving. They could keep working under me in a discipleship relationship. But at that point, you've done all the things you need to do with me. Like, I've taught you everything that I want to teach you. You're now essentially a peer. It's not so much about being my equal. And as much as it is, you're not my student anymore. So they've gone from students to interpreters to now peers of Jesus. And the second thing that happens in that passage is Jesus says Remember, you did not choose me, but I chose you. And that's not how it typically worked in their world. You would choose your rabbi. You would go to the rabbi and ask him to be his student. And the answer was probably going to be no. Like, you probably weren't going to have what it takes to be his student. But you went to the rabbi and said, can I follow you? Jesus went to these 12 guys and a handful of ladies. And if you want to get specific about the apostles, he goes to the twelve apostles and he says, I come. Follow me. I see something at work in you. Which is again, a reference to this idea of 24, 7, 365. But let's look at one more. How about the Great Commission? How about Matthew 28? Let's see this now, kind of, we've saw the keys of the kingdom. Then we've seen the I call you friends. Now let's see the I commission you to go. Do Give me Matthew 28.
- [27:17]
Brent Billings
Then the 11 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him. But some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you, and surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.
- [27:44]
Marty Solomon
All right, there's a few things that jump out to me about that passage. Number one is your typical commissioning like you would expect any rabbi to give his cover up. He's going to commission them, he's going to send them out. But two things stand out. Number one, Jesus keeps his authority. Like most rabbis would say, my ministry is coming to a close, or I'm dying and passing away. And they would pass on their authority so that it can live on beyond them. Jesus isn't dying. He's not going anywhere. He's going to be resurrected. He's going to be very much alive in the power of the Holy Spirit and the reality of the Resurrection. So he keeps his authority. So his authority is never passed on. His authority is something that you and I live in every day, in the Resurrection. The other thing that jumps out is that very first verse that we very rarely quote, which is that some believed and others doubted. And to them Jesus said, go and make disciples. He says to them. And that them does not specify that it wasn't. To the ones who doubted, Jesus says, to all of them. And some of them are believers, and some of them in that moment are doubters. And Jesus sends them all out. All those things are really beautiful to me. And our observations that I make, all those passages fit what I learned about and what I saw when I studied over in Israel in 2008 and 2010. That's what I was bringing with me. That's what formed a passion in me to pursue a unique and a different kind of discipleship than what I was used to. So let's just unpack real quickly what we are used to. We're used to disciples and discipleship meaning. I can think of three things. Number one, I come from a particular tradition. BRENT Christian Church, Church of Christ, where historically we are known for calling ourselves disciples. Yes, followers of Jesus are disciples. That is literally, historically, what we call ourselves. If you are a believer, you are a disciple. And I'm not throwing shade at that. For me, that's just a semantics issue. Like, honestly, if that's what the word disciple means in our context and how we're going to use it, I'm fine with that. As long as we understand what we're saying and how we're using language. Language is language. It's tricky, it's messy. I don't have a problem with how we use it. But that's not what we're talking about with Jesus. We're all Jewish believers, disciples in the sense of rabbinical discipleship.
- [30:07]
Brent Billings
BRENT not even close.
- [30:09]
Marty Solomon
Not even close. Like most scholars would tell us today if discipleship was the thing that we understand it to be, it's less than 1% now, again, if we're wanting to use the word discipleship in a very broad. But if we're speaking of like this thing that Jesus is doing with James and John and Peter and Philip, if that's what we're talking about, the thing he's doing with Judas or Simon the Zealot, if that's what we're talking about, then that's not the same thing. Because the whole village that Peter and James and John and Philip and Andrew came from, the whole village of Bethsaida follows the God of Israel. They all say, Shema in the morning. Hero Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your might. They are people that love the God of Israel who follow him, who are under covenant. But that's not the same thing as what Peter and James and John were doing when they went to follow Jesus. And so what this does to us is it creates a world where when I start talking about discipleship, you might be hearing on the other end of this podcast, well, if I'm not a disciple, I'm not a real believer. Absolutely not. That is never what I'm communicating. I am not communicating that every single person that follows Jesus should engage in the kind of discipleship that I encountered in Israel. That kind of discipleship was rare. And for a select few that God called not because they were better, but because God was calling to something unique. But it had nothing to do with their standing before God, their heart before God, how much they followed God, how much they knew before God. No, none of those things. It was just a unique way to understand and experience leadership development. What else are we used to. We're used to discipleship as spiritual formation. Like we will use discipleship. Brent, in terms, especially in the evangelical church, we often just say discipleship. And what we mean is that we're growing spiritually, that we are committed to a rule of life, that there is practice and discipline, and that spiritual transformation is happening. That would be evidence of the process of discipleship. Again, I'm fine with that. It's just semantics. If that's what we mean when we say discipleship, I'm okay. But what I came back from Israel was. What I just saw is not that either. What I saw in Israel is not every believer being a disciple. What I saw in Israel was not just engaging in spiritual transformative practice. What's the other thing? In the megachurch especially, we like to talk about discipleship as a church. Growth, assimilation. Right. It's just church assimilation. This large mega church. And we were even involved in a church movement, Brent, you and I, where they would travel around the country and do trainings. And kind of one of the punchlines of the training is we're going to teach you how to do discipleship the way that Jesus did it. And the whole idea is that we're getting you involved in small groups. Now, there are some principles that are true about Jesus and his small group of disciples, but Jesus was not running a small group megachurch ministry. That's not what he was doing. Now, there are beautiful principles. Again, I love the principles. If I'm going to go to a megachurch, I want to be able to get connected. I want to be able to find community. And again, if we. If that's what we mean when we say discipleship, that's fine. But that's not what Jesus was doing with Peter and James and John 24:7
- [33:44]
Brent Billings
is so hard in our world.
- [33:45]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, it's almost impossible. Which I found out because I came back and I wanted. I was like, okay, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. So let me do that. And I immediately realized, okay, well, I'm married in a very western civilized world. I got two kids, 24, seven is going to be really hard. But I thought, well, let me get as close as I can. So the reason I joined campus ministry was because I wanted to find young adults who could make their own decisions for their own life. The problem with high school students is if you ever tried to get them to do something, their parents would always show up and be like, I don't like that idea, no. And they went and signed the permission slip. And the thing about trying to do this with adults later in life is they're in the same situation that I'm in. I got a career, I got a mortgage, I got a marriage, I got three kids. How am I supposed to do this? So I got into campus ministry to work with a group of people that could say, yes, very similar to Jesus. Jesus is working with a bunch of young guys and young ladies. They're at a stage in their life, culturally where they can say yes to the call of rabbinical discipleship. So I went to campus ministry and I attempted to build this kind of world. We lived life together sometimes. There was one period where I rented the house right next door. We rented a house and then I rented the next door house and students lived there. There was another time where I rented a really big house with many, many rooms. Reminds me of John. But I rented a really big house with lots of rooms and all the students lived in the same house with us and our family together. That was very much 24, 7, 365. And then we had another house where we had a basement that we would kind of rent out to the disciple or the student there. So we did all kinds of stuff, but we were really attempting to live life together, to spend as much time together as possible, to eat together and to have fun together, to watch the same shows on Netflix, to do our disciplines together, to do our jobs together, to do our resting and our playing and to go to the same football games and to watch the, to engage in the same kids activities. And we were trying to do life as much as we could together. There was a sense of intentionality to what we did. We did our spiritual practices like we memorized. We got up at the same time together. We did our Memorizing together, and we read the Bible together, and we prayed together, and we would do some of that, and then we'd have breakfast together. There was relational engagement with each one of my disciples. I would walk with them at least twice a week. We would go on our own personal walks, just you and me. We would walk for two or three miles, and we would just talk, and we would. We would do life together. There was a proximity. Like you lived in literal proximity. You were down in the basement. You were across the hall. You were just across the parking lot. We had a physical proximity to the way we had. We did life. And there was a definite mentoring that happened. And they got to see. They got to see my wife and I's marriage. They got to see us parent our children. They got to see us struggle with making purchases, buying cars, considering what we would do to a home or a house. We all got to do that together. They got to see that. They got to engage that. And honestly, Brent, I loved it. I loved it. It was some of the most meaningful work that I did in ministry. It was discipleship. I didn't even have this in my notes. But I would also say that there were some dangers, too. It could get real culty real quick.
- [37:10]
Brent Billings
Sure, sure.
- [37:10]
Marty Solomon
And so part of the beauty of what we had was that we had discipleship within the context of a larger church. We were involved in the church's small group programming. We went to worship together. We showed up for the service projects. We showed up to staff meeting. We had regular meetings with peer groups and accountability at our appropriate age levels. Like, we were purposely intertwined with a church community to make sure we weren't just some crazy bunch of weirdos that live next door to Marty. Marty was a part of a larger fellowship. That's part of how we combated what could have been really weird sometimes. So it was intentional and it was a little weird, but hopefully it wasn't weird in the wrong ways. Loved it. Loved it. And then my job changed.
- [38:02]
Brent Billings
Yes. Which is why we're all talking to you today.
- [38:05]
Marty Solomon
Exactly. It's what led to the podcast Pros and Cons. Pros and Cons. But I had to start traveling with my new job. I couldn't have somebody do life intentionally with me. That bothered me because this has always been one of my top three or four passions. Since I went to Israel in 2008, this has been one of my top convictions and passions. And I prayed a lot about this change as I was stepping into this new role and this new job. And I really felt like that was what God was saying, no, I need you to do this for a season. That season still isn't over yet. But he called me into this space. And what I love about doing this on the podcast is you're listening to what I think is some of the reason why it's not the quantity or. Or the amount of people that listen to the podcast that make this valuable. I still say my work with discipleship, like those students that we did life together with, is still way more meaningful than anything that I've done on the podcast. But we are getting to take the things that we've experienced and give them away to more people so that they, too, can experiment and experience some of the same things that we did together. So I spend my time now creating content. I spend my time now promoting the work, actually talking about discipleship with people. I spend the time raising the funds to fund the work that we're doing. But that was tough. And so that brings me to a place of, where am I at now? So now what is this where I'm going to be forever? It's hard for me to do. And the reason I'm probably doing this whole thing, Brent, the reason I've got all these notes for this episode is because I'm not doing discipleship right now. How do I talk about this pillar when I don't feel like I'm actually doing it, Doing it, doing it. And so I've wrestled through that well.
- [39:49]
Brent Billings
And I feel like this is where a lot of your disclaimers come in, because it's like, well, how do we even really know this? How much do we know? What do we know? How confident are we? Because at some point, this has to be a practical thing. You have to actually do something with it. And it's like, for me, the whole idea of mimicry really speaks to me, because I like to be competent in something before I do it.
- [40:15]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [40:15]
Brent Billings
So the idea that I just get to, like, sit in the background and mimic and get those reps in without actually having to take on any of the authority like that is music to my ears. I know a lot of people not necessarily like that, but a lot of people do like that. That speaks to me. So I love that aspect. But at some point, I do have to be taking it on myself. And so it's like, well, are we doing it right? Yeah, it's tough.
- [40:42]
Marty Solomon
Yes. And I know that so many of our listeners wrestle with the same stuff. So when I say, what am I doing now? I'm wrestling on this particular pillar, I continue to wrestle. Not to set up the next pillar, Brett, but I continue to wrestle, and I continue to allow myself to not just be okay, but I kind of want to continue to live in this tension until I find other answers to these questions. But I live in this tension and have for a little bit. But I do hope that one day I will go back to a space that's very similar to what I described above. Maybe I'll do the same old stuff. Maybe I'll find people that want to come live close to me and literally do life together. I might try some new stuff. I have this little idea that I want to experiment with virtual discipleship. Brent. My whole life is virtual. We all learned how to do this during COVID Thankfully, we've also been able to step away from it. We've learned how to do things virtually. I've wondered what it's like to. I wonder if I could create a digital hovera where we all get up and instead of walking across the parking lot to the same house, we log on to the same little livestream group. We do our disciplines together. We share a conversation. We open up a zoom call over breakfast. I don't know what it would look like, but I've wondered what it looks like to experiment, to build a cohort. This is not me, by the way, for everyone listening. And you've already pulled up your email and you've started to craft an email. I'm not taking applications yet. This is just a dream that I have, and I'm not there. I'm not even close. Not even close. So just close that draft. Okay. I'm not even close to pursuing this, but I would love to see a day where maybe we try some new stuff and see what else is. What else is possible. What does discipleship look like for us today? I still teach it. Here I am on beh teaching discipleship again. All these years later, people still encounter it in season three. People still hear us talk about it in season four. People still hear about the four Pillars in season five. I talk about it on every one of my trips. Israel and Turkey trips, when we do study tours. Brent, is it pretty unique to experience that you talked about seeing these things over there in person? Is that a pretty substantial experience?
- [43:00]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely. And theoretically, as this episode comes out, you'll be in Turkey. Yeah.
- [43:05]
Marty Solomon
Here's to hoping.
- [43:06]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Standing in these places and seeing, like, okay, what was daily life like for these people? Seeing the geography of it. Seeing like, okay, when Jesus told them to go from here, to there. Like, how far of a walk was that? And like, you were talking about a big part of your discipleship before the podcast started was walking with people and just having that conversation. Yeah, it was huge to see that.
- [43:30]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, absolutely. I would also say I'm getting close to a close here. Don't worry. But I would also say that I've had to remind myself I'm not letting Jesus down because I'm not doing discipleship, because I go back to what I said earlier. Discipleship is not for everyone. And right now, it's just not for me. It's not what Jesus is calling me to right now. And that's the danger of equating this kind of discipleship with believership. This kind of discipleship. You can say a believer is a disciple. That's not my point. But to say a believer, every believer in Jesus has to be pursuing this kind of commitment. No, no, no, no, no. This is something totally unique. But I do believe it's something we should be. Somebody should be chasing this. Somebody should be engaging this. But right now it's not even me. And so it might mean that it's not even you as well. However, I will close with a however. However, what about some of the principles? I might not be able to do this kind of discipleship, but I do believe that I can take these principles and build the principles of discipleship into my life. Here's what I mean. Intentional pursuits and relationships. Do you have anybody in your life that you are intentionally relating with, meeting with, pursuing? Is anybody pursuing you? There's always somebody in front of you. Always. There's always somebody in front of you, somebody who's a step, a step or two down the spiritual path from you that you can follow. And there's always somebody a step or two behind you that you can reach back to and say, hey, I'm going to chase Jesus. I'm going to chase other people who are following Jesus. And if you want to chase me while I chase Jesus, I think we can all get to Jesus together. There's always somebody in front of you, and there's always somebody behind you. Do you have any intentional pursuits in relationships with those kind of realities? Secondly, just ask the question, who am I around? Who do I do life with on a very regular basis? You are doing life with other people. Family, spouses, children, parents, co workers, friend groups, your church, other affinity activities. These are all places where you might be around people on a regular. On a regular basis. And the question is, is there anybody in these groups that I need to form a very intentional relationship with and say, let's follow Jesus intentionally together and let's do this together. Let's do this practice together, you and I. And the last thing I would say is this imitating and mimicry, imitation and mimicry. Do you have a pursuit of Jesus? Usually for us, that's going to look like spiritual practices, but do you? And we've talked a lot about spiritual practices. We're going to keep talking about spiritual practices because it's a part of our special sauce here at Impact and Bama. But do you have an active, vibrant pursuit of Jesus and spiritual practices that you engage in every day? What kind of vocational engagement? What does it mean to be a barista that would barista like Jesus? What does it mean to. To be a CPA or an accountant who would account like Jesus? And I know Jesus wasn't an accountant. The idea is, what does the life of Jesus look like when you fold it into the world that you live in and that you occupy every day? What about accountability? The thing about imitating and mimicry, you will never be more convicted about and more inspired in your leadership than when you know that every single day somebody is two steps behind you, watching you. Like nothing is more convicting. It's one thing to follow Jesus. It's another thing to know that somebody is watching you follow Jesus. You will follow Jesus better. Not just because you're performing, but because it's convicting to know that somebody is watching you. It's the most beautiful, healthy thing, the most healthy kind of accountability ever. And for all of us that have families that were married or we have kids, young kids, and I just was with a whole nother group of people this weekend that you've got little kids, you're trying to figure out how to sabbath and how to rest. And it's a challenge. And yes, yes, yes, and amen to the challenge. And we'll talk about wrestling here in a few episodes. But the idea of just family flourishing, raise those kids, partner with that spouse, honor those parents in a way that leads to your flourishing and their flourishing. These are the principles of discipleship. So if there's anything in those last five minutes there that you think to yourself, I could commit to that, that 2 degree shift, I think makes a huge difference in your walk with Jesus. Those are my thoughts, Brent. Those are my slightly convicted, trying not to be guilty thoughts on discipleship today and the year of our Lord 2026.
- [48:42]
Brent Billings
And I will say there's no accountability like kids. Because when I hear my Oldest say to my youngest, dude, what were you thinking? In the same tone that I know that I've used before, it's like, yep.
- [48:55]
Marty Solomon
Oh, no. Yep. Oh, baby.
- [48:57]
Brent Billings
But, yeah, it's. I mean, it's a struggle. Like, you would think, like, oh, Brent Billings, he's one of the hosts on the Baymont podcast. His decision discipleship game has to be, like, off the charts, Right? These kids have got to be, like, rock stars. It's like, well, I don't know. Sometimes it's just a struggle to get them to repeat the same words that I do as we're doing the Lord's Prayer.
- [49:16]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely.
- [49:16]
Brent Billings
And recently we've shifted from, like, I say a phrase and they repeat the phrase to we're kind of starting to, like, say it in unison. And part of that is, like, our church tradition is not one that does a lot of stuff in unison like that. So that's part of just, like, cultural differences. But, yeah, there's no shortcuts. All this stuff takes time.
- [49:38]
Marty Solomon
Yes, it does.
- [49:39]
Brent Billings
I mean, Jesus spent three years teaching his guys, and he's the best one. So absolutely, you know, like, don't feel bad if you're like, you know, three months in and you're like, I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with these people. It's like, yeah, yeah, go easy on yourself.
- [49:56]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely. Well said.
- [49:58]
Brent Billings
Jesus's yoke is easy, and his burden is light. If it feels more than that, like, step back and reconsider. So. And then we'll get into it with the next pillar on wrestling, because there's so much stuff to wrestle with, including how this stuff plays out.
- [50:12]
Marty Solomon
So, yeah, I'm excited to hear what Reid and El have to say about discipleship.
- [50:16]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely. So that will do it. For this episode. We have quite a few links, I think, for this episode, quite a few. If you want to dig into some of this historical stuff, some of the quest for Jesus, and we got books, we got scholars, lots of things to look into. If you want to dig in deeper on some of that stuff, you can find all of that in your podcast app or@bamadiscipleship.com you can use the website to get in touch with us. If you want to see the things that we're up to. If you know the probably the best way, if you want to know when Marty's doing this virtual discipleship thing, probably sign up for the Baymon messenger, because I'm assuming whenever that actually happens, we will announce it there. And who knows, when you're listening to this episode, so that's the best way to do that. But thank you for joining us on the Baymon podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.