424: The Chosen S4E7 — “The Last Sign” (Bonus Episode)

Summary

Summary of The BEMA Podcast Episode 424: The Chosen S4E7 — “The Last Sign” (Bonus Episode)

Release Date: November 18, 2024
Hosts: Marty Solomon and Brent Billings
Podcast: The BEMA Podcast by BEMA Discipleship

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1. Introduction

In Episode 424 of The BEMA Podcast, hosts Marty Solomon and Brent Billings engage in a comprehensive analysis of Season 4, Episode 7 of "The Chosen," titled “The Last Sign.” As they near the culmination of Season 4, Marty and Brent delve deep into the episode's dramatic events, character developments, and the intricate blend of biblical context with historical traditions.

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2. Episode Structure and Theatrical Release

Marty opens the discussion by reflecting on the unique theatrical release of recent episodes. He notes the growing length of episodes and the seamless way they’ve been presented in theaters. Marty shares, “The episodes keep getting longer and longer” ([00:27]). Brent clarifies that Episodes 7 and 8 were shown together without rolling credits, though Marty recounts the inclusion of a possible intermission: “I think they had a five-minute intermission with a countdown on the screen” ([00:46]).

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3. Overview of "The Last Sign" Episode Plot

The episode begins with a cart journey where Matthew is introduced, accompanied by Mary and Ediana hiding in a cave. Marty explains, “Mary and Ediana are hiding in this cave, which according to Dallas in the roundtable is supposed to be in France” ([01:22]). This ties into one of the church traditions regarding Mary Magdalene’s final days, though Marty and Brent acknowledge the various traditions, including Ephesus.

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4. Character Dynamics and Developments

Matthew and Mary
Marty highlights the evolving relationship between Matthew and Mary, emphasizing her role as the first reader of Matthew’s gospel: “Mary's going to be the first to read it, which I thought was a fascinating tidbit” ([03:26]). This dynamic underscores Mary’s significant influence in the early dissemination of Jesus’s teachings.

James and Thomas
A substantial portion of the discussion centers around the death of little James and the confusion surrounding his identity. Brent questions, “Which James would that tie him to?” ([04:42]), leading to a debate on the various James figures in the New Testament. They explore the portrayal of James and Thomas, considering historical references like Acts 12:2, where James, the brother of John, is martyred by King Herod.

Judas and Nathanael
The hosts delve into Judas’s frustration with the increasing fame of Jesus and the disciples' struggles. Marty cites a pivotal moment where Jesus asserts, “Only Jesus knows what true glory looks like” ([12:53]). This line resonates deeply with both hosts, highlighting the tension between worldly recognition and divine purpose.

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5. Biblical and Historical Context

John 11: The Raising of Lazarus
Marty and Brent meticulously analyze the depiction of Lazarus’s resurrection, referencing John 11. Marty praises Catherine Lidstone’s portrayal of Mary, stating, “I could not believe how good that was... authentic to my core” ([19:07]). They discuss how the show remains faithful to the scripture while adding layers of emotional depth.

Psalm 13 and Deuteronomy 30
The conversation touches on Psalm 13, where little James interprets sleep and death metaphorically: “Sleep and death are used interchangeably a lot” ([09:20]). They also reference Deuteronomy 30, exploring themes of life, death, and divine purpose.

Isaiah 53 Allusion
Brent notes, “They basically are using the ESV in most cases... they are referencing Isaiah 53,” connecting the episode’s themes of suffering and redemption to the prophetic texts ([38:54]).

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6. Theories and Interpretations

Multiple James Figures
The hosts discuss the complexity of identifying which James is referenced in various biblical accounts. Brent shares his theories but acknowledges the lack of consensus: “My crazy theories... they're not that crazy” ([06:49]). They consider how "The Chosen" navigates these ambiguities without making overt historical errors.

Mary Magdalene’s Traditions
Marty expresses interest in leading a BEMA trip to France, reflecting on the traditions explored in the episode: “Mary and Ediana are hiding in this cave... they were filming this” ([01:22]). They acknowledge the debates surrounding Mary Magdalene’s final location, whether in France, Ephesus, or elsewhere.

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7. Acting and Direction Highlights

Catherine Lidstone’s Performance
A standout moment in the episode is Catherine Lidstone’s portrayal of Mary Magdalene. Marty gushes, “I could not believe how good that was... authentic to my core” ([19:08]). Brent echoes this sentiment, praising the scene’s realism and emotional weight: “Especially when Jesus breaks down and starts weeping... very relatable” ([19:34]).

Portrayal of Grief and Emotions
The hosts commend the show for its nuanced depiction of grief. Brent remarks, “They don’t overuse a musical score... it would have changed the scene more” ([19:37]). Marty adds that the authenticity of the performances makes the audience forget they’re watching a show: “She just broke through all of my skepticism” ([21:05]).

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8. Symbolism and Scriptwriting Choices

Tomb Stone Symbolism
Brent delves into the historical accuracy of tomb stone movements: “A Jewish tombstone is very hard to close but very easy to open” ([24:24]). This symbolism underscores the themes of resurrection and the difficulty of letting go of grief.

Representation of the Last Miracle
The episode’s title, “The Last Sign,” refers to Jesus hinting at the finality of his miracles. Marty interprets this as Jesus anticipating the end of his earthly miracles: “The idea that this is the last sign” ([35:20]). This notion adds a layer of urgency and solemnity to the narrative.

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9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Marty and Brent reflect on the intricate portrayal of disciples’ struggles and the show’s ability to mirror real-life faith community dynamics. Brent summarizes, “This is kind of like a microcosm of what we do all the time in our world” ([42:52]), highlighting how the series authentically captures the tensions and misunderstandings among the early followers of Jesus.

Marty concludes by appreciating the show's balance of faith, historical context, and character depth, reinforcing why "The Chosen" remains a compelling narrative that resonates with listeners and viewers alike.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Marty: “The episodes keep getting longer and longer” ([00:27]).
• Marty: “Mary and Ediana are hiding in this cave... supposed to be in France” ([01:22]).
• Brent: “Jesus is the one that knows what true glory looks like” ([12:53]).
• Marty: “I could not believe how good that was... authentic to my core” ([19:07]).
• Brent: “A Jewish tombstone is very hard to close but very easy to open” ([24:24]).
• Brent: “This is kind of like a microcosm of what we do all the time in our world” ([42:52]).

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Final Notes

For listeners seeking deeper insights, Marty and Brent recommend exploring additional resources such as the Gospel of Mary and their James addendum video, available in the show notes at baymontussups.com. They encourage engagement through their contact page, fostering a community of learners eager to reconstruct biblical narratives through historical lenses.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we continue our discussion of season four of the Chosen with the dramatic events of episode seven.

[B]

Dramatic indeed. We are approaching the end of season four here in our commentary. So this and another episode, right, Brent?

[A]

Yep. And the episodes keep getting longer and longer.

[B]

Now, you said in the theaters you thought this and the next episode were combined. Is that what you said they were?

[A]

Yep. It was 1, 2, 3, together, 4, 5, 6, and then 7, 8.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay. Interesting. And when you saw them in the theater, did they flow? Was there breaks where the episode breaks are, or did it just flow together as one? Seamless.

[A]

I don't. They didn't roll credits in between. I know that. I'm trying to think if there was any kind of. I think. I think they had an intermission. I think they had a five minute intermission with a countdown on the screen. So you knew you had time to run to the bathroom or whatever.

[B]

Sure. Okay, got it.

[A]

Could be remembering that wrong, but I'm pretty sure. So something like that.

[B]

All right.

[A]

It was. I. I didn't remember actually that the events of this episode took place in this episode. I thought it was in the next episode. So we might as well talk about what we're talking about and hit that spoiler horn.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Okay, so just to close that loop. Lazarus being raised. I mean, obviously we all know that happens, but I thought that was in episode eight. Sure. As I was getting ready for these episodes again and rewatching things and taking my notes, I was like, oh, that was. And it wasn't even the end of this episode. It was like, relatively early on. So. Yeah, yeah, kind of. Kind of nonchalant. But anyway, as we start this episode, we see a cart traveling down the road. Two people on it. One of them is shrouded up. Turns out it's Matthew, but he gets dropped off. He makes his way up a mountain, comes to this cave. He's confronted by an archer. Her name is apparently Etienne. Okay, I don't know if that means anything, not that I'm aware of, but Mary and Ediana are hiding in this cave, which according to Dallas in the roundtable is supposed to be in France, which is one of the church traditions on where Mary ended up. And they argued about like, well, she could have been in Ephesus. She could have been several different places, but they're like, well, none of them are necessarily mutually exclusive, so decent chance she was in France at some point, whatever. But that's what they had in mind when they were filming this.

[B]

I was very interested about the tradition that could be. I'm not actually a big expert on tradition unless it collides with my turkey study or those kind of things. So I wasn't aware about Mary Magdalene and where she would end, so I assume there was stuff like that. So it's very interesting to hear. I thought it was, I mean, just being in a cave, those kind of things I thought were, I mean, personally kind of a nice touch. I'm a sucker for these time warps, these back to the future time warps that we have. I'm all about it because I love how it weaves things together, but I liked it.

[A]

Well, I don't know how much of it has seeped into the podcast, but listeners may already know. Maybe not. But I would definitely be up for leading a Bama France trip.

[B]

Yeah, you would.

[A]

If you ever want to get into.

[B]

That, Brent will go find the cave. I love that.

[A]

I don't know what else we can do there, but we'll make it happen.

[B]

You can teach, I'll take photos. How about that?

[A]

Perfect. So great. All right, well, so Mary meets Matthew outside and he makes this comment that she's still unusually pleasant to look at, which is just such an interesting dynamic between the two of them. Clearly nothing ever came of that relationship. And I think at the point we are in this, I don't know how many years later this is, but they're just very, very dear friends at this point. Yeah, but Matthew has finished his book. Mary's going to be the first to read it, which I thought was fascinating tidbit. The idea that Matthew's gospel would first have been read by Mary, she gets a lot of firsts at various points throughout the gospel. So, yeah, I think that that is an appropriate thing to do there. But he has some bad news to share, that little James has died in Egypt by spear. And I meant to look into this, but I was curious which James that would tie him to, if those events were particular, if that said anything about which James. We've talked about which James they're putting in which place before.

[B]

But yeah, yeah, I know. And yeah, I knew you were going to ask me that. And I meant to do a little bit of digging before we jumped on here, but it's very confusing because obviously you have my crazy theories, which are literally crazy theories about the triumvirate, who the James's are. They're not that crazy. I think they're the most plausible and historical, but not the consensus. Right. Wouldn't expect the Chosen to be playing that. They haven't. But we also talked to Dallas in one of our interviews and he mentioned like, you know, just how they're playing with the James doesn't. I didn't even really think through some of those other details. So James the just is referenced in the Book of Acts. And my understanding is that's supposed to be James, son of Zebedee, I believe. But as they've done the show all the way back in season one, I'm pretty sure little James was the one that Jesus said, oh, and a sense of justice. We should call you James the Just. Which means they flipped those. And I'm good kind of either way because I think the whole thing is clouded. James who all of that. It can be so confusing. I have a theory about even some of the references. You could link that addendum video we have too in our show notes if we wanted to, just so you could hear us talk about my theory, which is not Chosen's theory. But I also don't believe Chosen is using what I would call maybe the dominant assumption either. But I don't agree with that assumption. So I'm good with it. I'm here for whatever. So I have the same question. I don't. Because I feel like James suggests in Acts, you could have to see if you can pull that up, Brent, because I think that he was killed in Jerusalem, I believe. But I might be assuming that because he was killed by Hyrcanus and he wouldn't be actually in Jerusalem, he would say he would be in Egypt, like was suggested. So have you found that reference in Acts?

[A]

Looks like that's Acts 12:2. James, the brother of John put to death with a sword. That was King Herod doing that.

[B]

Yeah. So that's a different James. And it doesn't actually mention in Acts James the Just. So that's just how most scholars weave those characters together. Which actually just adds fuel to my fire as far as which James is which.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

But yeah, definitely makes it work for Chosen. And again, man, they just there. They don't make a bunch of just dumb historical mistakes like they doesn't mean that their theories or how they put everything forth is right. But I have yet to see Chosen just make a dumb error because they're not thinking through random obscure references. So yeah, it would. That James would not necessarily be the James we're talking about here killed by Hyrcanus. And you're going to have lots of different theories of how all the apostles die. There's always going to be different. Everybody says it was here, it was here, it was here, it was with us, it was with them. So who knows? But yes, I caught that too. And we've now digressed for like 12 minutes on this. So there you go.

[A]

You know, this is the fun nerdery that we like to get into.

[B]

Absolutely. I'm here for it because I had the same question.

[A]

So they also mentioned some other names, Onya and the girls.

[B]

That name rings a bell, but I can't remember why Onya and I remember hearing that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then also there was something about sending them to stay with Nympha and her husband at Colossi.

[B]

That name is. That name's in Colossians. That name is referenced. Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And the other one might be as well referenced in the letters. That might be why it rings a bell on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, perhaps. Yeah, sure.

[A]

And they said Paul has been writing letters to the Colossians. Letters, plural. Which is a fun, fun little.

[B]

Yeah, I do love that. And the whole just the reference to Paul, who obviously is a much later character. Later edition. But to hear them reference that character as somebody they know personally at that point in the flash forward. I loved that too. That was kind of fun to hear.

[A]

Well, and presumably a central character in the upcoming the Way of the Chosen series.

[B]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[A]

They'll probably end up weaving some of these stories together as they do that show too, which will be fun.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yep. So Eddie and I get some food for them. Matthew mentions that he noticed Mary has been writing some stuff of her own and Matthew's eager to hear her thoughts. But whatever, she seems like she's not really that interested in sharing. I was like, is this because I feel like I felt like I had heard something about the Gospel of Mary at some point. I've never really looked into it very much. This is apparently not what they were getting at.

[B]

Right.

[A]

According to them in the roundtable. And when I, when I looked it up, it's first of all, of course, completely unclear and debated which Mary that is even referring to.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But also it doesn't really have much to do with anything that they're talking about in this episode. So sure, interesting thing to look at, but unrelated. I'll throw a link in the show notes just for the kicks of it. But then Ediena gestures to Mary, apparently encouraging her to. To share with Matthew. And so she talks about some dreams that she's been having, which that does. Like there is Some like dream talk in the Gospel of Mary. So I guess there's a vague connection there, but. And then Mary refers to Matthew as her oldest friend. And then we are into the credits. So we start off with Z chopping down some branches. He's making walking sticks for the Jameses. He gives the one to little James and makes a comment about how he fought bravely. And then they all depart from there. And Thomas is remarking to John that the new sandals are quite comfortable. And John asked Thomas about the statement that he made that we may die with him. And then they have this conversation about, you know, wishing for one's own death and brings in Deuteronomy 30. And Thomas is like, you know, we're being forced to accept that death is a part of life.

[B]

At this point, I can't remember if it was my wife or my daughter. Somebody pointed out. I don't know if you noticed. It seems like they all have new clothes. It's in the middle of a season, so it's not just some season break. But like they've. I don't know, maybe it was all my daughter's thought was like it was all Hanukkah gifts. Maybe it my wife that said that because they had just been giving gifts and now they all got. But a lot of them are wearing. I mean they're all beat up last episode and stuff and everybody's slinging stones on the Temple Mount. So now they've got. Had to go out and get some new clothes, I guess, but looking fresh, looking dapper, looking as the. As the kids would say, very demure. Anyway, I'm a camps, Mr. Brent. I'm with it.

[A]

Would they say that in that case? I don't know.

[B]

Probably not. Probably.

[A]

I don't know if any of them would really qualify as demure in the. In the aftermath of the stoning.

[B]

But that's true. That's true.

[A]

Good goal, I guess, for them. So then we have big James asking Peter if he had betrayed the story of Jairus daughter in his state of delirium. Peter's like, keep it down, keep it down. You might have done that in the moment, but let's not do it again here on the road. And they discuss what Jesus's words about Lazarus could potentially mean. You know, all this. All this talk about that. And then we have Judas and Nathanael and they're discussing the change in Jesus fame and how things are different now because so many more people know who he is. And Judas is lamenting that they are. That he feels like they're losing all the time, they're stumbling all the time. They've got all these. All these deaths that they're tending to. Doesn't feel like glory. And Nathaniel's like, oh, it doesn't even. Shouldn't Jesus be able to decide what glory looks like? And Jesus is like, well, sure, but this certainly can't be what it is.

[B]

Yeah, that was the line I wrote down. Only Jesus knows what true glory looks like. I thought, man, how applicable is that for all of us, obviously, historically, in that moment, as they're portraying it in that storyline. But, yeah, what a great statement, one that I wrote down in my own notes just to take with me. Like, Jesus is the one that knows a. Knows what true glory is, knows what it looks like, knows what he's looking for, and it's so often going to collide with what I assume about glory. So love that, love that comment.

[A]

Then little James and Mary are discussing Psalm 13. They're talking about, well, little James is pointing out, like sleep and death are used interchangeably a lot. Only God knows the difference between them. And James is talking about his early conversation with Jesus about, you know, he's not being healed, but he is being given these powers to heal. And he's like, well, wouldn't raising Lazarus present even bigger questions than that?

[B]

I love the wrestling that they're. Again, another scene where they're batting around text, disciple to disciple, one on one, as they go about the road, as they sit and eat lunch, as they like, they're really, you know, going into a text and going, man, I love James's point about sleep and death used interchangeably, trying to apply it, trying to pull wisdom out of that. Just little small moments that, you know, aren't necessarily critical or a part of. But I just thought, man, that's so what I envision and what I hope was true and what could be true of followers of Jesus. As we wrestle with things together and.

[A]

They'Re talking about expectations and Mary's like, well, I only really expected darkness, so everything is beyond what I could have imagined. But she's had a lot of practice with grief and loss and she is grateful for the light that she has now, but it's not an enviable perspective. She went through a lot of torment to get this. And James nonetheless wishes for the wisdom that she has. And then they remember their time at that first Shabbat dinner. I think you said that was your favorite episode of season one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Her home and Thaddeus was there and everything was just a Lot simpler back then.

[B]

Yeah. I loved all that. None of us could have dreamed where all this was headed. And they just kind of like, they vamp on that for. From a couple different angles. Yes. And, yes. We wouldn't have wanted to. No way. We could have. Just. So. Yeah. Just great reflection.

[A]

So then we are in Bethany. We see Mother Mary comforting Sister Mary, and Martha is just kind of staring at a shelf with some jars and stuff. Arnon enters and greets Martha with this blessing and gets introduced to Mother Mary. And he makes a comment about how Lazarus was a great ironsmith and all this, you know, construction stuff. And Jabez comes in. He's the family lawyer. He's kind of laying out the stuff from the will. And they're like, can we talk about this later? But Arnon makes the comment about Nazareth. Not even, like, as degrading as some of the other comments.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But it's just kind of like, you know, it's under the surface there. And they're like, hey, wait a second.

[B]

Yeah, it was awkward. It was like, the right amount of awkward. Like, how many times have you put your foot in your mouth? And, yeah, it's not really vindictive, but it's like, ugh, yeah. Didn't mean it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Maybe you should just move on.

[A]

Yeah. But then Jabez says he has a word from Nephtali that some people are coming. And so Martha runs out of the house and meets Jesus. And John 11 basically plays out straight from the text. John is writing, of course, as he. As he goes, but he's looking over at Thomas. Thomas is just kind of staring blankly ahead, and Matthew and Peter are expressing their confusion. And Jesus is grieved by this and by everything. And as much as everybody else seems confused, Thomas seems to understand very clearly what is going on here, and he doesn't want to believe it. He turns down John's comforts, but he. He seems to know better than anybody else exactly what's happening here.

[B]

Yeah. And you just worded that just right. He seems to understand and yet doesn't want. Doesn't want to. It's this, like, weird, I had to say, like. And I. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself in the episode. They. They. This. The. The. The screenwriting and pulling you into this. To this particular character development moment. Moments, plural. Really well done because. Very relatable in almost a way that's hard to articulate. Like, he. Yeah, he gets it. He sees clearly because of where he's at, and yet he doesn't get it. He doesn't see clearly because he doesn't want to. It's a good way of wording it. And I don't know if he doesn't want to want to, but there's something that. Those are the right words for me. It's exactly what I wanted to put down in my notes.

[A]

And we know more about Thomas than we do about good chunk of the disciples, but we still don't know that much. And we certainly don't know what led to some of the things that he did in the gospels. And man, an experience like this certainly fits the bill for explaining something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the contrast with little James and how like when he's in pain earlier and people are like, man, why doesn't Jesus just heal you? He's like, we're not talking about me right now. Like, leave me alone. Yeah, I just need. I just need a moment. So, yeah, the. Those two characters put against each other and the way they engage the, the lack of healing for their personal things is a challenge for sure.

[B]

Sure. Absolutely.

[A]

So then Martha goes and gets her sister. Mary comes out, everybody follows her exactly as it is in John 11. Perfectly played out. Mary falls at Jesus feet, cries out, she's crying, I'm crying. This, this scene in particular, I mean, the whole thing like with Thomas goes all the way across the episode. But this particular moment, sure, the actress is Catherine Lidstone. I don't know if there's a better portrayal of grief and anguish that I've seen on screen than what she does in this scene. I thought it just felt like authentic to my core. Like, I know that I'm watching a show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I know that it's about things that actually happen too, but I'm watching a show. But my goodness, I could not believe how good that was. I don't know if it struck you as much as it did me, but I was incredibly impressed by her performance.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's the actress that plays Mary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is when you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. I, I didn't know how to feel, but I don't mean that in a negative way. Like, it was the acting, everything about it, the directing of it. I didn't know it was one of those scenes that, you know is coming. You're like, how are they going to depict this? Like, what are they going to do? And you know, one of the things that, as you say that, that I've noticed is, I mean, they. There's plenty of score work in the Chosen. I'm not saying there's nothing, but they don't overuse a musical score. You could. You could. And that would. I mean, it would have evoked all the right emotions. It would have. But it would have changed the scene more than, like, they just. Everything about the scene was like, okay. Like, I wasn't. I wasn't unsatisfied. I wasn't satisfied. I was just kind of uneasy. Like, I was like. Especially that when Jesus breaks down and starts weeping, which you haven't gotten there yet, but that whole. There's like a whole grieving portion kind of unbroken. And all of those things made it like. I don't know, but I am. I mean, if it. If it. If I did know what to say, that would be. I think, what's wrong? But I don't know what to say because of how they chose to direct that, which I think is kind of the point. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's what draws me into it. That's the unresolved, awkward nature of grief. That's the. It's the acting that you're talking about. It's the way they. There is so much colliding here, and not in a chaotic. There's Thomas, there's the disciples, there's Jesus, there's Mary, there's the crowd, there's like. And yet it was just really interesting. Well done. I think I can say well done.

[A]

Jesus crying, in contrast, did not feel. It's. It's like.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I would never show up at an actual funeral and judge people for the way that they're mourning, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But this knowing that it is a show and that they are acting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, ah, does that feel real to me? And usually it doesn't.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I don't know. It's like, I can't. I can't blame them. I don't know how I would do it better. But Catherine as Mary, I feel like she. She just broke through all of my skepticism and made me forget that I was watching a show and it felt like she actually lost somebody. Yep. No. No shame. I mean, obviously, I've talked so much about how great of an actor Jonathan Roumie is, and I've talked, you know, many other, like, the. And in some ways, like the, like, Jairus Daughter, like, the people mourning there, it's like, well, of course they sound like that because they are acting. Even. Even in their, like, actual role, like, they're.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They're there to help the other person grieve. And so, of course they're not going to Be as authentic as the person who actually lost somebody. The whole thing is, is really complicated. And, you know, I'm not saying that I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to show up at a family member's funeral and be like, hey, wait a second, shouldn't this person be more important to you? You don't seem like you really are that upset. No, obviously I'm not doing that. So, you know, it's just complicated watching these things. But yeah, just impressed by what she did.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

But, yeah, everybody is like, there's a lot going on here. Everybody's asking questions. They all start moving. Thomas is kind of frozen and clearly shaken by what's happening. It's, you know, it's getting closer to the part where he has to actually confront and believe what he basically knows is already happening. And Andrew's the one who asks about, well, what about the blind man? He healed the blind man. Can he do something about this? And John ends up looking back at Thomas and, and he and Tamar walk with Thomas, but the whole crowd is on the way to the tomb and Jesus gets up there and says to take away the stone. Then we get the John 11 dialogue between Jesus and Martha. It's been four days, so that goes past the, you know, three day, whatever. I think we've talked about this at some point on the podcast where you like shout into the tomb each day for the first three days or something like that. Is that. Am I remembering that right?

[B]

I'm not sure. We did on the podcast. We definitely do it in Turkey. But yeah, there's a. See the other interesting thing, and it's. I don't know how big of a historical hang up it is, so I haven't said anything. But typically the first seven days you spend it at the tomb. So they wouldn't typically be at the house. Although I feel like it kind of reads that way, historically speaking, they would have been at the tomb. They're only home on Shabbat for seven days. You sit Shiva at the tomb entrance. So they should have been historically speaking out at the tomb. I'm not sure if John reads that way or not.

[A]

And yeah, John does not because they. There's the line about verse 31 of chapter 11 when the Jews who had been with Mary in the house comforting her, notice how quickly she got up. They followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

[B]

Yeah, it definitely does read that way. So credit to chosen on that regard. And I'm not sure that I was ever taught that that's where they were in this story. But historically speaking, that's what we know about the mourning process. You would sit out there. You only go home on Sabbath. And I don't know how, like, do. You literally can't. I was taught they, like, stay out there. They probably even sleep out there at the evening. But maybe that's not the case. But you do. On the third day, you shout in, the stone is left. The first day, the stone is open. The second day, you close the stone. On the third day, you roll the stone back open, which I'll just get this out of the way. The one thing I don't agree with historically is how hard the stone is to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I know that there's a. There's one reference in the Gospels where the stone says the stone was heavy. And so we all assume that it's really hard to move. When the women ask who's going to move the stone? It's not because of the physical weight of the stone, it's because of the Roman seal. They're going to put their lives on the line by breaking. Under the authority of the police state, they're going to break a seal. So who's going to take the fall for that is what they're really asking. But a Jewish tombstone is very hard to close but very easy to open. You can open it with two fingers. The stone just rolls. It's set in a groove that just immediately rolls open because you have to get in and out of the tomb multiple times during this whole process. And then it's very hard to close because that symbolizes your grief. It's hard to say goodbye. It's going to be very easy to be vindicated at the resurrection. So that's the symbolism between easy to open, hard to close. But obviously, people see a couple phrases here and there in the Gospels and don't read it that way. So typically, you would roll that door open, it wouldn't be a big deal. And you would simply yell in like, Lazarus, Lazarus. And when nobody answers, then you finally close up the stone, you often will put beeswax. Not an unofficial Roman sense, but you will often seal it just to let people know that that's where you're at in the process and all those kind of things. I'm not sure. Yeah. Anyway, I could just go on and on about the process here, but. But yes, that would have already happened. So it's the day after they have called his name and legally ruled him dead.

[A]

Yeah. And on the stone thing I don't think Maggie has heard that lesson. I'm not sure. Maybe she has, but maybe in Israel, I guess. But she did make a comment as we were watching it. She's like, come on, that stone is perfectly round. It would not be that difficult to move it. Yeah, so anyway, whatever. So Jesus steps forward. He looks up, he has some lines from John 11 that he. The Hughes's. And, you know, John continues to write all this stuff down. Of course, Thomas, you know, has some questions as Jesus is saying these things. And then Jesus raised his hand, calls Lazarus out. He sort of starts to appear and the crowd goes crazy. All sorts of reactions. Thomas is weeping. Mother Mary and Martha go and remove the grave clothes. And Lazarus actually looks really pale, which I thought was, you know, a helpful indicator of like. Yeah, yeah, no, he was actually dead. The blood has not been flowing through him. And he's looking like he's, you know, a little bit. Yeah, he's got a. He's got to restore his vitality a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, my son. My son would agree with you on that. That was his comment. Strength. You know, the one thing that the scene did for me that I didn't realize was it very much came across in the episode almost like a horror terror. And Which I was like, I was at first taken aback by, and then I was like, how could I view this any other way? Like, how did a dude wrapped in burial clothes appear in the door of a tomb?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And have that not be the creepiest thing you've ever seen? Like, I just went, yeah. And I don't think I've ever really thought about that, ever. Teaching this story. That had to have been the weirdest. Not just like, wow, that's crazy. Like, scared to death. What the heck is that? Well done on their part.

[A]

Yeah. The. The woman who screamed when. When he first, like, came around the door, like, man. Yeah. You felt the terror in her for sure.

[B]

Absolutely. Well done.

[A]

And totally appropriately.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then we have Thomas, who's staring at Jesus as he talks to Lazarus. And just like, so much internal turmoil going on here. The crowd's murmuring. The Sadducee says that he's got to get back to Jerusalem. Another man seems to follow him. I'm not sure who that second guy was. I didn't even know that the first one was a Sadducee, but they make a comment about it later that was so weird.

[B]

We couldn't figure that out as family either. It obviously seems almost like a spy. Shrouded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm like, but the Sadducees are already there. So I'm like, okay, I thought it might be a spy from the Sanhedrin, but maybe that's not the case. So we'll see. We'll have to see. But that was interesting, that character there.

[A]

But then the disciples kind of start to assemble and big James is asking some questions. Judas is getting really excited about, you know, everything that's going on. Thomas falls down and it's just like, why? And Jesus is acknowledging to him how difficult things can be, but he's like, please just stay with me and you'll understand, you know, in time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Jesus nods to John. And so John kind of takes over with Thomas. And then Arnon and Jabez are trying to warn Jesus about the saddest Sadducee, you know, taking word back and he's like, well, that's actually the point, so don't worry about it. And then the disciples as a group are kind of comforting Thomas at this point. And then fun little shot of Mary kind of staying behind at the tomb and looking at the grave clothes, looking into the tomb and just kind of like she's. She's seeing where things are heading as well.

[B]

Yeah. So many great notes during this scene. For me, Jesus telling Thomas, what I allow to happen crushes you and me. I thought that was really like, it's not that I allow these things because it's fun for me or it doesn't matter to me. Like sometimes the things I allow are crushing. And I know they crush you. They also crush me. Stay with me. I thought that was good. I don't need you to understand. I don't expect you to understand. And I don't even need you to understand. Just stay with me. I thought that was a really great line. At some point, Thomas is asking him, you know, why don't you care? He says, I do care. It's why I'm doing this interesting wrestling match. The tension just amongst the disciples, period is very interesting to me. The different responses, again, something I've never really considered in the context of this story or even these moments, this chapter of Jesus's ministry. But I wrote that down. And then obviously Mary staying behind to stare and look at the tomb. I mean, throughout this episode, I keep thinking of the writing she shared with Matthew in that opening flash forward scene. I think earlier when she said to James, like, I'm so used to the darkness. And her poem that she shared, her writing started with darkness in comments about darkness. Now she is standing there. So I'M thinking about that. I'm also just thinking, like, what I said to my family as you're watching it is what a perfect. It will be Mary that. I mean, spoiler alert. It will be Mary at the tomb that stays behind and gets to see and find Jesus. The guys are all gone. Even the women seem to have left, if you harmonize the Gospel accounts. But Mary stays behind and ends up encountering Jesus in the garden. So she's going to be the one that gets sent to go tell the disciples by Jesus. So that moment is being set up. I think of Jesus's comments at the end of the last episode. You understand, like, she's getting it and seeing things that others aren't seeing and they're not even going to see. But there's going to be this payoff at Jesus's tomb later because she's. She's been paying attention. And I loved that moment in the scene. I loved it. I thought, what a great. It's the Lazarus story, but what a great place to put her in this scene. Loved it.

[A]

So then we see Mary and Martha tending to Lazarus and they're like, well, do you still have the click in your knee? And he moves his leg, and sure enough, he's still got the click. And they're asking him what it was like. And then Jesus comes in and they're like, hey, man, I still got this click. And he's like, oh, sorry, I only get one miracle per person. Which is just a great. Like, who cares if he's got the click at his knee? Obviously they don't care. But also, funny, like, I think many of us have wondered, like, what. What will our bodies be like in. In a restored resurrected state?

[B]

And, well, I also loved. I don't know how they. Why or how they did this, but no heaven talk. Oh, sure, it would have been so easy for them to do that. But there's like, I was sleeping. There's no, like, he saw anything or was with God or a bright light or any of that. Very Jewish in that regard. Like, yeah, nailed the. And they could have, like, really overdid. But it fits the Jewish understanding of the resurrection. Not a lot of our theological construct we have about what happens when we die. And I was hats off to him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why. That's big reason why we love this show. So the girls leave and they go to the messy dining room, and Mary remarks that Martha is not busy cleaning it. And she's like, give me some of that wine. Yeah, yeah, that Was. That's just a great little moment where it's like, oh, Martha finally, like, she. She understands now what she's supposed to be doing.

[B]

Yeah. And I've always seen this story as the redemption of Martha. You know, the earlier story was like, Mary's moment. Marth. Martha has something to learn. And I've always seen the Lazarus story as Martha's redemption. Like, she comes out to see Jesus first. She is the one that has some sense of zeal and belief. And so even though this part isn't in the text, the change in Martha is in my mind. And I like them. Including that in here.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And Lazarus has all sorts of questions for Jesus. And Jesus is like, ah, you know, I. I know. Like, sure, it could have been anybody. Why did it have to be you? But it wasn't so much about who it was, it's about when it happened. And makes a comment about the last sign and last. Just like, oh, so does that mean no more big miracles? And Jesus is kind of like seeing what's coming. And it's like, well, not this side. Kind of trails off a little bit. And Jesus is like, hey, I gotta confess something. I didn't. I didn't come right away. When I got your message, I had to go do some preaching. And Lazarus is like, well, how did it go? And Jesus says, besides the attempted stoning, I thought it was above average.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I just realized too, in my notes, there was a little pre scene to this scene where Lazarus was talking to the sisters, and they made a point of saying, like, we need to be able to say thank you. And they talked about. I thought one of the great lines in there was, what do you get essentially, for a miracle worker?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And it wasn't said directly. It was hinted at. But it's not about, he doesn't need anything. And I thought, oh, goodness, like, what do we give Jesus as a gift? He doesn't need anything. So it's not about what he. What he needs. We get to give him what he wants. So our obedience to the thing that Jesus is wanting us, this whole. This whole last episode, in this episode, like, he's just so frustrated at, like, I'm trying to tell the world something, and they just don't want to get it. They don't get it. Nobody understands. So people that do get it and understand are. That's the blessing. That's the gift to be people that hear his voice and hear his leading. But anyway, I didn't want to miss that note. But back to the scene you were talking about.

[A]

Yeah. Well, that leads in perfectly to the next part of that conversation where Jesus is expressing that frustration to Lazarus. He's like, I've told my followers three times what's going on. Seems like they're absolutely incapable of hearing it. And Lazarus is like, well, you know, I kind of feel the same way. I don't. I don't really understand everything. I'm only human. And Jesus is like, so am I.

[B]

Yes, another one of those moments. Absolutely.

[A]

And then there's the comment he's like, but you're also the Son of God. He's like, well, sure, that too.

[B]

And then he says, and you're undeniable. Or is that another. Is it Lazarus says that? Or Judas later? Or somebody calls Jesus undeniable, and his response in passing, like the person he's talking to doesn't even catch it. Doesn't even act like they hear it. Jesus says, well, I can't have that. Like, I can't be undeniable. Like, people have to be able to tell me no. I just thought it was such an interesting passing comment when somebody said, how can you. Like, how can you. Like, how can they say, no? How can this go any other way? You're undeniable. And he's like, well, I can't have that. I thought, wow, what a great line.

[A]

I do remember that. I can't remember. I feel like it might have been Judas, but I do not remember Jesus response. So that's an interesting catch.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, so Jesus is frustrated with the disciples. He's angry with the leaders. He's like, Isaiah, you know, gave all these warnings. They talk about Isaiah 53. And Lazarus was like, man, those are just words on a scroll for a long time. And now that, like, I'm looking at those words in light of. Of you, it's a whole different thing. It's flesh and blood.

[B]

Yeah. And. And obviously allusions to Isaiah 53. I have in my notes the sufferings for the Son of man and us. I think there was a comment made like somebody in the scene make. I don't think that's just me putting that in my notes, but maybe it was. I don't know.

[A]

But he basically quoted verse three, Despised and rejected by man, man of sorrows. And then they. They said, together, acquainted with grief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And was there. Was there a comment about not just the Son of Man, but also us? Like, that's. That's a passage that's not only about him, but also us? Maybe not. Maybe it's just my notes. I don't know. I have that in my notes, and I can't remember if somebody said that, but that's how I was hearing them. That's the context I was hearing them wrestle with in there. But that's because that's how I see it.

[A]

Yeah, I can't remember. I'd have to look at the. I'd have to look at the text and what they said more closely to know that. Yeah, I do know that. As I've been looking for Scriptures in this, they basically are using the ESV in most cases. Sometimes they're adjusting the language slightly, but it's generally the esv.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So as I've been searching for stuff, switching my Bible gateway over to ESV has helped me find.

[B]

Sure, yeah.

[A]

Most of these things. So we're still with Jesus and Lazarus, but then Thomas and the others kind of enter the courtyard outside of where they are, and Thomas is obviously upset. And Jesus makes a comment to Lazarus. He's like, I know that Thomas is not going to accept any of my words tonight. So he's like, let's go get you some food. So then Thomas is pacing back and forth. He breaks a jar. He's like, I'm done with being polite. And there's all sorts of. The disciples are giving you the range of responses to that. He's like, hey, we got to replace that. And he's like, what? Anything Lazarus loses has to get replaced. It's like, yeah, sure.

[B]

Been in these moments. As awkward as it is to watch, it's awkward to be in them in real life. And we've had them. We've watched them. We've. We've been them. Like, we. Many of us know what it's like to be Thomas. Many of us know what it's like to try to support a Thomas. Like, yeah, totally get it. Not fun or easy, though. Not. Not an easy scene to resolve in my. In my stomach as I watch it. But yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's all I would say. Yes.

[A]

So many painful things in this whole scene, really.

[B]

Like, Judas is an idiot. My son is like, man, I'm really starting to hate Judas.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He makes some crazy comments and Thomas kind goes after him and they, you know, they stop Thomas. John takes Thomas away, but Judas is, like, trying to express his excitement. And Z and Philip are like, man, I don't know if it means what you think it means. And this whole scene, like, Mary and Tamar are kind of like the voice of, like, hey, let's remember what Jesus has actually said, let's remember what Jesus has actually asked us to do. Like, we're all taking this way too far.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And then what kind of the climax of this thing is that? Judas speculates that maybe Thomas just isn't one of the true sheep that Jesus was talking about. And everyone's like, oh, you gotta be kidding me right now. Andrew says that the devil is in him. And, like, Nathaniel's like, take it back right now. But then little James has his pain that comes up suddenly, and that kind of diffuses the whole thing. And Thaddeus and Mary stay with him. And Peter's like, yeah, we all gotta just. We all gotta get some sleep. We're all a little bit too on edge here. Let's break this up for now. So Peter's kind of, you know, taking on his role as leader of the disciples there, but little James kind of helps to break that tension as well.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I really didn't have any extra commentary. The scene. That last scene kind of is what it is. And. And I just kept thinking to myself, this is kind of like the picture of where the church can be most of the time. People hurting other people, trying to make it about the mission. Everybody taking words one way or another, Pretty much everyone misunderstanding Jesus, Nobody paying attention to the women. Like, it's just like, this is like a microcosm of what we do all the time in our world.

[A]

Well, and I just continue to appreciate Judas. Like, he just believes so much, and he can't understand how the others are not seeing it and believing it the way he does. And of course he would. And completely inappropriate to theorize that. You don't question somebody else's commitment to Jesus or their salvation or however you want to phrase that. You don't question that. You're not in a position to actually know. But I understand when he believes as earnestly as he does, I understand how he could theorize. Shouldn't have done it out loud, but I understand how he can theorize. Like, well, maybe Thomas just isn't one of the true sheep if he doesn't get it, if he can't actually see it, maybe he isn't one of those true sheep.

[B]

Well, and the irony is the women had just gotten done saying, let's focus on what he said. And Judas does.

[A]

And Judas does. Exactly.

[B]

And twists it all up and gets it all wrong. But I thought, man, that's what we do. None of us are paying attention. Then somebody remembers. So then we remember, but then we don't do it. Right. And. Yep. Yes.

[A]

So then to wrap up the episode, we have the flash forward again to Mary and Matthew. And she talks about how she wanted to write her own song, like David. And so then she's kind of speaking this thing in a voiceover. And there's this montage of the news spreading and everybody wrestling what has just happened. We see Lazarus holding his grave clothes. Arnon wakes up Yusuf. Someone wakes up Shmuel. I wasn't sure who that guy was. But then the Sadducee who was at the tomb when Lazarus came out wakes Shammai. Sister Mary goes and opens the safe, and she gets out several bags of money. And Peter is wrapping the wounds of big James. We see little James turning over in pain. We see Thomas picking up the sundial and kind of looking at that. That was his gift for Rhema. And John looks over at Thomas and is like, well, I have this. Nothing else I can do at this point. So he turns over and goes to sleep. Mary Magdalene blows out a candle and sees Jesus picking up pottery pieces from the courtyard. And then Jesus is sitting on his bed and, like, trying to, like, find a match and put those pieces back together. And then the camera goes back to the tomb, and nobody's there. It's empty. And it just kind of zooms into that empty tomb. And then we go into the credits.

[B]

Great final shot. Another good cinematic choice.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love. I love the. The way they play with the lighting and. And do the other stuff like that. Like, yeah, so much that we all know is coming. And yet sitting in that tension, sitting in this moment of, like, trying to understand it all, is something that I think we can all relate to pretty well.

[B]

Yep, totally.

[A]

All right, well, that does it for this episode. You can find more details about our [e-mail] you can find the show notes there. Or in your podcast app, check out that James addendum video if you want to investigate that. Check out the Gospel of Mary if you're curious. I don't know, whatever. It was an interesting little document to look at. But, yeah, all those links will be in the show notes, and if you want to get in touch with us, you can use the contact page on the website. But thanks for joining us on the Bayma podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.

[B]

It.