← The BEMA Podcast
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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign. This is the Baywatch podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we wrap up our discussion of season four of the Chosen with the emotional events of episode eight.
- [00:16]
Brent Billings
Oh, yes. Close up. Yet another season of the Chosen. I'm along for the ride. Even on my seasons that don't rise to the top and will probably not be my favorite seasons. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. They've. They've won me over. I have high hopes and high expectations.
- [00:35]
Marty Solomon
Since we last recorded. They did announce the release date for season five, which is coming April 2025.
- [00:43]
Brent Billings
Ooh. All right.
- [00:45]
Marty Solomon
They don't have the exact date. It looks like Easter is like the third Sunday.
- [00:49]
Brent Billings
Okay.
- [00:50]
Marty Solomon
So they're kind of like shooting for right before Easter kind of thing.
- [00:54]
Brent Billings
Have they said if they're going to do any theater?
- [00:56]
Marty Solomon
Yes, that release date is for theaters. I don't know what the release dates are for streaming.
- [01:02]
Brent Billings
Ok. And hopefully they'll have their contractual agreements all figured out this time, I would imagine.
- [01:07]
Marty Solomon
Presumably we'll see. I don't know. We'll find out. So, yeah, that is coming. I do hope that we are a little earlier to the party this time. We're never going to be the first to arrive at the party.
- [01:23]
Brent Billings
No.
- [01:24]
Marty Solomon
But season four is a little late. We've talked about that. But we are aware of when season five is coming and we're going to.
- [01:31]
Brent Billings
Do our best to not leave people hanging as long. Yeah. And if I know us, I bet Brent Billings will probably see everything in theaters. And I will. I don't know why wait and not. And I'll wait for everything to be released on the streaming app and that's how we'll probably consume it again, which worked better for me. I was like, more in the moment. Like, I watched this commentary season almost episode by episode, so people got to catch me a little unaware as I didn't get a cheat.
- [02:00]
Marty Solomon
I know. I kind of like it.
- [02:01]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [02:02]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. I mean, I do like just going to the theater anyway, so there's that. But it's also just like a preparation thing because I usually watch these episodes two or three times before I do the pass where I actually take my notes because I just want to, like, make sure I'm catching everything because when I'm taking notes, I'm not watching that closely. So it's all sorts of stuff that I would miss otherwise, so.
- [02:22]
Brent Billings
Totally. Yep.
- [02:24]
Marty Solomon
Anyway, it's not like I don't miss stuff anyway. Even. Even after two or three times. It's Yep. It's a richly developed show with all sorts of details to mine out. So that's why we're here.
- [02:36]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And I assumed, because you said originally, like, these last two episodes were kind of one theater showing, so I was like, man, how long is this? But there was another typical season four of the Chosen. Just over an hour.
- [02:49]
Marty Solomon
I felt like, right, yeah, the full runtime is an hour 25, but the actual episode is only about an hour 7. And then it has the 12 minute credits because it's the last one of the season. So it has the full list of all the supporters and then there's like six minutes of outtakes or whatever, so.
- [03:05]
Brent Billings
Oh, I didn't watch for the outtakes.
- [03:07]
Marty Solomon
Ah, man, oh, man. I've got a couple that I'll pull out. But yeah, there's. There's a good chunk of them in there.
- [03:12]
Brent Billings
All right. I love that. Well, people aren't here to hear us talk about what we didn't watch. People are here to let that spoiler horn go.
- [03:20]
Marty Solomon
All right, we're in it. So we start off and people are laying down their cloaks, they're singing Hosanna. And for a brief moment I was like, whoa, did we just skip to the trial? Plenty. You know, they've done that a couple times where they show something that's in the future and then they. They're like, okay, seven days ago, here's how it all. But not the case here. This is actually a. A further flashback to David and he's riding in. Of course, he's not a horse here, but they have the palm branches, they have the shofar blowing. They've got flower petals all over the place. And David has a shield with a lion on it, which I thought, oh, sure. Was an interesting detail.
- [04:07]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely. And I had the same thought when I first started seeing it. I was like, okay, triumphal entry. And I was like, oh, I bet this is David. Clever, clever. And I love that connection. Like, I've. I have a certain, like, package of triumphal entry teachings and plays. And I just never thought about. I mean, it's kind of an obvious connection I never thought about making with David. And coming into Jerusalem triumphant after battle. I even thought of potentially the Ark. I didn't know what was going to be happening in this scene originally. Like, is the ark going to be. Is this where he's going to be? No, not that. But loved the connection. It was great. I'm going to put that in my box. My bag of tricks.
- [04:44]
Marty Solomon
I tried to find a specific passage of scripture that they were referencing with this entry of David and I. I could not actually find it because he enters the home and then he's speaking with his son Daniel, and then Abigail, who's Daniel's mom. And I didn't even like. He does say Abigail in the scene, but at one point I got confused with her and Bathsheba. They're actually different actresses, but I feel like they. I haven't actually brought up a side by side photo, but I feel like they kind of look similar.
- [05:15]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [05:16]
Marty Solomon
But Daniel. Daniel is the son of Abigail. That's in the text. That's in first Chronicles 3. And then Bathsheba was earlier in the season.
- [05:25]
Brent Billings
Yep. Yep. I love the break, bringing in Abigail like that. I thought that was also clever. I mean, I named my daughter Abigail, so it was a fun conversation as a family as we. As we watched it. But she's in the awkwardness of the polygamy thing. Um, it's. Let's just acknowledge that. But other than outside of that, she's one of my favorite wives of David that we don't talk about nearly enough. So I. It would be weird if I didn't qualify that. One of my favorite wives of David, Abigail.
- [05:59]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. Well. And Daniel does not have, like. He's a blank slate. He's just mentioned in a list in 1st Chronicles 3 and that's it. So not a lot of story to work with there. Yeah, you can do whatever you want with him because that's. That's what it is. But they are preparing the passover lamb together. It seems like that's the same place where David had been mourning for his child with Bathsheba earlier. Okay. I think it's the same set. I didn't. I didn't verify that, but I'm pretty sure. But then again, I mixed up Abigail and Bathsheba, so who knows? I could have this completely wrong.
- [06:31]
Brent Billings
Well, my. My wife made the. See, I was kind of assuming that too. This is David's palace. We've uncovered what we believe is the royal palace and what we call the old city. David's city. Not the city. David's city. And it kind of lies underneath a residential district. It's close to residential district today in Jerusalem, modern day Jerusalem. So I've always kind of assumed that my wife was making clever comments about. I'm not sure that all these wives live in the same palace, so this could be a different. But I'm like, that's probably a good point. Yeah. Who knows? But yeah, it did kind of look like, now that you say that, I didn't think about that, but the same kind of. I kept seeing it as almost like a basement. I don't know why, but it was almost like a part of the palace that he. Yeah. He had mourned in. It did kind of look like the same spot.
- [07:14]
Marty Solomon
It's like a little court, courtyard kind of thing or whatever. Maybe.
- [07:17]
Brent Billings
Maybe. Yeah, absolutely.
- [07:18]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. But they're. They're anointing the lamb with the oil, and Dallas said that they are connecting. They were. They were doing that to connect it with what Mary does later in the episode. Anointing Jesus feet.
- [07:31]
Brent Billings
Okay, sure.
- [07:32]
Marty Solomon
Fun connection there.
- [07:33]
Brent Billings
Yes. There was definitely some critical conversation that happened about the historic of anointing the Passover lamb. Apparently, that is an idea that showed up as far as one scholar could track down today. Goes back to a modern reference only a few decades old. Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of historicity to that, but a fun connection that that scholar didn't necessarily appreciate a whole bunch, but. Oh, well, sure, the way it goes.
- [08:02]
Marty Solomon
But back inside, they're feeding the lamb, they're telling the stories. They're getting all their stuff prepped, and then David gets out a box, and he opens it up, and there's a bridle inside.
- [08:11]
Brent Billings
We've.
- [08:11]
Marty Solomon
We've seen this bridle before.
- [08:13]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Nice. I knew you were going to be right, Brent, you said, I bet there. I think it was you all the way back in whatever season it was. And, like, I bet they're going to. Didn't you make a comment about using that for the Triumphal entry?
- [08:24]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, well, it's just like, they're making such a big deal about this bridal. Why are they talking about this so much? It's like, this has got to come up later.
- [08:30]
Brent Billings
And I remember when you made the comment, I'm like, oh, they better not. And now I'm like, okay. By the time I. By the time I've gotten here, I'm like, okay, you were right. I love it. Love it.
- [08:39]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And when Jesus gets it out of his backpack later, the box is preposterously large. It is like the whole volume of his backpack. And the bridal takes up, like, a very small portion of it.
- [08:51]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [08:52]
Marty Solomon
But it is the same box that David has, so it's like, okay. I mean, sure.
- [08:56]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it's. Yep. The. It has been. It had been passed down, and it does fit the box that he's had in the other scenes and all that, so. Yeah, absolutely. But I. I do. I Did chuckle at the size of the box. It's good.
- [09:07]
Marty Solomon
Herod is like, kill all the babies. And Mary and Joseph are like, we gotta get out of here. And Joseph's like, oh, gotta grab that box. And Mary's like, you gotta be kidding me. We're gonna take up that much space? No, this is important.
- [09:18]
Brent Billings
Well, hey, if it's the box that came down from King David, I'd grab it too, I suppose.
- [09:22]
Marty Solomon
Yep, yep, for sure. But then we are in the cred. So coming out of there, we see Jesse, that's Z's brother, and then Veronica, who's the woman who had been bleeding for 12 years. They're talking to the crowd, talking about Jesus Gadera standing in front of them, refuting all of their claims as they go. And he makes a comment about like, is he even going to show up? And that's actually something from John 11. As I was looking at the text and all this, so many of these lines that are just like. When I went back and looked them up, it's like, oh, that's a direct quote from whatever. So that's going to come up a lot. Just a theme.
- [10:21]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [10:21]
Marty Solomon
And then we see Atticus and Pilate surveying the whole scene of Jerusalem. And you know, it's like, well, maybe Pilate's being tested with these large crowds. Like, why would they let all these people? It's like, well, I don't know. Why wouldn't they? Doesn't this happen every year? But also like this year feels different. And he does ask Atticus about the ghost of Bethany. And Atticus is like, kind of speechless in this moment. And he's like, I don't know, man, I've seen a lot of crazy stuff. And then Pilate is like, well, I'm kind of more concerned about Caiaphas and what his response to this whole thing is going to be.
- [10:57]
Brent Billings
Yeah, you know, I've really appreciate it. I don't know why. I've appreciated the character of Atticus and what it allows them to do with some of these scenes. And yeah, I appreciated the conversation, the political relationship between Pilate and Caiaphas. I liked how that was kind of highlighted. I thought the interesting. The ghost. The ghost of Bethany, this Jewish sorcerer reference, I thought that was interesting. I was. That was a scene. I enjoyed the way they put that together.
- [11:30]
Marty Solomon
A lot of whispers and rumors about that situation have gotten around pretty quickly, it seems.
- [11:36]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [11:36]
Marty Solomon
And yeah, I think I like Atticus as like maybe like a personified form of the political pressure that Rome puts on all of its people and its leaders and, you know, trying to maintain that Pax Romana thing.
- [11:52]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:53]
Marty Solomon
So then we see Sister Mary shopping for some perfume, and she convinces the shopkeeper to bring out something a little fancier by dropping a whole bag of money on the table. And then ends up dropping three bags of money, which is apparently years wages, which they call 300 denarii. So I guess you're. You're counting the days that you're actually working and not the weekend or whatever. I don't know.
- [12:16]
Brent Billings
Yeah. A denarius is one day's wage, so 300 would be about right.
- [12:20]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:21]
Brent Billings
It all matched for me.
- [12:22]
Marty Solomon
Yep. But the shopkeeper had mentioned that the whole thing would be worth about half a year's wages. She's buying it for double. Buying is even a little bit of a stretch because she basically just drops all the money on the table. And the shopkeeper's like, you can't buy it all. I need to keep some for my other clients. And she just takes the jar and leaves the money.
- [12:42]
Brent Billings
Yeah. There was an interesting exchange there. It immediately brought back to mind that previous scene that I didn't appreciate until our commentary, I think, in the last episode about maybe it was two episodes ago, whatever. The raising of Lazarus. When they say, what do you give somebody that. What do you give a miracle worker? What do you give somebody that can do. There was that comment that was made.
- [13:04]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [13:04]
Brent Billings
And I immediately thought of this, like, oh, gosh, like she's. She's going all out because she understands the. She understands the identity of who she's trying to think. It was just. I liked connecting those. The biblical text doesn't necessarily connect those two stories, but I liked how the writers had pulled that thread through. Mary's identity. Mary's identity in relation to Lazarus. What's happened to Lazarus, why she's thanking Jesus or anointing him for burial to use the biblical or whatever that. Like, I liked pulling that thread through like that. I thought that was very clever.
- [13:37]
Marty Solomon
Then we're over with the council, and they're arguing about whether Jesus is Elijah. And Shammaia is shouting down Yusuf. Yusuf has apparently decided to be a little more engaged now. And Shmuel is like, well, you know, the Elijah matter does bear some investigating. Maybe I'll do it myself. And Gadara is, you know, concerned about Rome's response to the whole thing. And then Caiaphas gets up. And I loved this line, Gadara, you know, nothing at all. And that was one of those ones that was a Direct quote. That's straight out of John 11.
- [14:11]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it is.
- [14:12]
Marty Solomon
He's not necessarily talking to Gadara, but.
- [14:14]
Brent Billings
He says, you know, nothing at all. Yeah, absolutely.
- [14:16]
Marty Solomon
And then Caiaphas is talking about the prophecy they had about a man dying for the people, which is, again, John 11. And they're like, well, let's hand him over to Rome before an uprising happens. But we can't do it too soon because we want Rome to understand, you know, we're actually doing them a favor here. And then Shammai is, you know, of course, upset. Like, how can we. How can we coordinate with Rome like this?
- [14:41]
Brent Billings
Yeah, totally. I. I mean, I know I've kind of nitpicked about some of the nuances. Dynamics historically about the Sanhedrin and who's doing what and who's playing, but they just nailed. They really have nailed the relationship between the corrupt Sanhedrin, the Sadducees, and the Pharisees, the dynamics within the Pharisee camp. It's one of my. It's just one of my favorite parts about the historical work they've done to depict that. I thought the scene was another one where they just nailed it. They nailed it.
- [15:09]
Marty Solomon
Then we have Shmuel, who is, you know, in total crisis about the situation here.
- [15:14]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [15:14]
Marty Solomon
He's venting to Yusuf, and then he's like, hey, can you. Can you pull some strings? Can you get me a meeting with Jesus? I gotta talk to him.
- [15:21]
Brent Billings
Yeah. This Shmuel character, and I'm kind of getting ahead of us here, but he's that. I feel like great screenwriting. With TV series or different productions, you always have a few characters that you never know whether or not you're like, are they a good guy? Do I like them or do I hate them? Do I like them or do I hate them? Do I like them or do I? And Shmuel's gonna go on this roller coaster in one episode. I'm gonna love him and hate him within the chorus of it. It's just a wonderful little journey as far as weaving that together, because here I'm like, yeah, Scavi's having a crisis. Yousef's helping him. He's on his way. I'm not sure what they're going to do with the Shmuel character. I'm like, is he going to be, like, on board by the time this is done? Is he not going to be? So at this point in the episode, I'm like, oh, my good. Anticipation is rising as I watch this.
- [16:08]
Marty Solomon
Yep. So then we have Gaius. He's chatting with Eden and Gyrus about Passover customs and what their plans are. And Gaius wants to send some messages to Jesus and Peter and to check on Matthew as they go. And Eden's like, well, why don't you just come with us? And he's like, I can't do that. I do wonder if he is actually going to end up going in the next season. If that's. Like, if he's sitting at home, I feel like I should have gone. I should go see what's happening or whatever. I don't know. We'll see. But there's lots of people leaving town. Big old line of carts and horses and people and everything else headed to Jerusalem for Passover, which is what you'd expect.
- [16:48]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I. I kind of appreciated that because I was like, man, they're definitely depicting huge crowds. But that's always what I've understood, what I've taught. But I've always had a hard time picturing in my mind, like, what would that have been like? Like, what is the busyness level? What is the. You know, how are all those things coming together? What's it like? What's the crowd quote, you know, And I just thought, yeah, this is as good of a depiction as I could conjure up in my own mind. And I just liked how they. They caught that, as that is a small detail. That really is. I mean, some scholars say half a million to a million people going to Jerusalem for Passover. Yeah, that's a lot of people for the region, so. A lot of people. So I like that.
- [17:32]
Marty Solomon
And Jairus listed, you know, the people who don't go. And it's basically like, unless you're just not able to physically or, you know, you have some sort of special circumstance, like, you're going. Everybody's going.
- [17:43]
Brent Billings
Totally, totally. Yep.
- [17:44]
Marty Solomon
Then we have Judas. He gets up in the middle of the night, takes a little bit of money from the purse, but he sees Thomas leaving the house and follows him. And then it's. It's daytime when they actually get out there. So I guess this was like, you know, just first thing in the morning before anybody else got up. But Thomas digs this very shallow hole. And, yeah, I would say, quote, unquote, buries the sundial. I don't really even understand how it's under the dirt, the time he's done, but whatever. I also don't understand how Judas was not seen in this. I mean, obviously, like, we need to know Judas is there, so we have to see him. But it's Just like the angles, the way everything's portrayed. It's like, man, Thomas, I feel like. Did he just have his eyes closed the whole time?
- [18:27]
Brent Billings
Yeah. I'm curious to see how this comes back. I mean, obviously it's a setup, I would think, to something. I'll be interested to see what they do with the sundial. They put the bridle to work, so they got to have something else, I guess. So I'll be interested to see how that works. But yeah, I totally chuckle at the same. At the same stuff. I was like, oh, dig a deeper hole. Like somebody's going to trip right over the sundial.
- [18:46]
Marty Solomon
I know. And one of the, One of the outtakes, Marty, is this scene where Thomas walks away and then Judas stands up and then he pauses for a moment and he's like, is this because you didn't get to bury Rhema? It's like, oh, my gosh.
- [19:03]
Brent Billings
Oh, brutal. Brutal.
- [19:05]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. The on set humor after a long day of filming, I'm sure. Oh, jeez.
- [19:11]
Brent Billings
Wow.
- [19:12]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, the couple. Couple good lines from Judas in the outtakes. Sure.
- [19:17]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Yeah, Okay. I like that.
- [19:19]
Marty Solomon
But then we have Herod and choosing all those people arriving in Jerusalem and they. They're trying to get through the crowds and they get this message from Caiaphas, which I. I guess we'll. Well, yeah, we sort of get. We sort of get some picture into what that message was a little bit later. I imagine more of that will unfold next season. But then we're. Then we're in the big scene. We have Jesus and his disciples at Martha's house, Lazarus house, whatever you want to call it. Arnon and Shmuel and Yusuf all arrive and Jesus says his name. Shmuel is just shocked that Jesus remembers him. Everything's looking pretty good for Shmuel at this point. John and Matthew and Z get up and give their places at the table for the. For the new guests. And Arnon is like, I gotta. I gotta warn you about this. And Shmuel is like, well, we're just. We're. We're actually concerned that this is gonna lead to your total ruin. And he's like, you know, you've been talking about this son of man thing. And this was Shmuel's best moment for sure. Because one of the. One of the disciples, maybe Andrew or something, pipes up about that, like, oh, not this again. And he's like, no, I'm not here to argue about it. Like, I'm really, like, trying to understand or whatever. And Jesus, like, totally affirms him like, yeah, I can see that you're sincere. It's like, oh, yep. So good. Unfortunately, only downhill from there.
- [20:51]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was interesting that Jesus asked him what he wants to see in Messiah. I thought that was such an interesting question for the Jesus character. Yeah, I love that. It was a greatly placed. Yeah, it's really good.
- [21:03]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And then. Yeah. And he says something about. About glory. And Jesus is like, glory? I don't know about that. And then he's doing the sheep and the goats conversation. And, you know, for those who were hungry, you gave them food and blah, blah, blah. That whole conversation from. What is that? Matthew 25? Is that where that one is?
- [21:26]
Brent Billings
Yep. Nailed it. Good job.
- [21:28]
Marty Solomon
Oh, well, I did write it down. I just didn't write it down in the right place. Apparently. It's not in my notes.
- [21:33]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [21:33]
Marty Solomon
But they go back and forth quite a bit. They've got, you know, Micah 6, they've got Ecclesiastes 12. And then, you know, they're in the middle of this conversation, and then Mary comes in and she starts applying the nard to Jesus feet. And Shmuel goes to his lowest point now, just a few moments later, and he's totally offended. And Jesus is like, it's only tradition. It's not in the law. And then Judas comes over and he's like, oh, my gosh, this is a crazy amount of money that she spent on this. How could she possibly do this? And then Shmuel chimes in. He was listening earlier. He's like, you were just talking about doing all these things for the poor and taking care of the hungry and everything else. And this goes totally against that. And Shmuel just can't take it. He runs out of the place. And then Yusuf brings up that idea that Jesus mentioned earlier. He's like, oh, you're being prepared for burial. And several of the disciples had that same question. So that question came up throughout the scene. But Yusuf ends the scene with that reiteration.
- [22:39]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I hated this scene in a good way. It was so hard to. Because they depict it so well. Well, first of all, they've set up the Judas character so well.
- [22:50]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [22:50]
Brent Billings
That this was such a natural flow to see Judas's concern about. Like, of course that's what he is. Of course he can't see anything else going on because this is the only thing that he wants to care about with the best of his intentions. They're totally misguided, but he's got good intentions by caring about it was just A perfect. But then, like. And the biblical text doesn't necessarily situate this story right next to. It's not that it has to take place with the sheep and the goats, but they took a teaching of Jesus that represents the ethic and interpretation of Jesus. They paired it with what's going on with Mary. I have to. Like, I did a sermon recently. I'm not sure I'll be able to find it for the show notes or not, Brent. But I did a sermon recently on this story and Judas rebuttal. And I was like, guys, I gotta be honest. I would have been Judas in this story. I would have missed the point just as much as Judas did, because I do this all the time in church world today. Like, I think this is the stuff that Jesus cares about. I miss what Jesus apparently does care about in this. Like, that whole angst and that tension they represented in this scene. Well, like, I was like, oh, I think I said all the way back in season one, like, I resonate with Nicodemus. Like, I resonate with these pharisaical characters. It's hard for me to follow the. When I'm hung up on my theological reasoning. I miss the thing that Jesus is trying to teach me in light of my theological reasoning. And. Yeah, yeah, we had an episode, I think, last session last season where we talked about missing God in the name of God. Like, it's that. It's that whole concept then. And. Yeah, interesting.
- [24:31]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, that was actually back in the John series, episode 283, which covered this portion of scripture, John 11 and 12.
- [24:38]
Brent Billings
Maybe that's the sermon I'm remembering. They all run together in my mind.
- [24:42]
Marty Solomon
Oh, man.
- [24:43]
Brent Billings
Oh.
- [24:43]
Marty Solomon
Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe not the. Maybe not a sermon then.
- [24:47]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it could be that. That teaching in and of itself, who knows?
- [24:50]
Marty Solomon
Oh, that's funny. Well, I'll look for a sermon and if I. If I can find it, I'll link it. But if not, then I guess just that episode is what it is. Yeah, there were a couple shots of Judas also. Just the seating arrangement has been interesting here. They're not quite doing the triclinium thing, but I think on Jesus, right. I think first the first seat is Peter, and then I think Judas is right next to him. So Judas is pretty prominently seated, if for nothing else, just the blocking of the shots. And there are a couple of moments throughout this scene where you can see him wrestling with, like, okay, you're saying this, but I thought you said this before. And, like, there's a lot of internal struggle trying to, like, discern what Jesus is talking about. And, you know, Judas comes out after Shmuel leaves the house, and Shmuel approaches him, and Judas is like, you know what? I don't understand what's going on. And Shmuel's like, no, I think you might be the only one who understands what's going on there. That was crazy. And he's like, yeah, I don't know. But all I know is that Jesus is the one. So he's still, like, he doesn't get it, but he just has this unrelenting belief in Jesus and his mission. He just doesn't get the mission.
- [26:11]
Brent Billings
I have loved that depiction. I mean, we've heard my take throughout the podcast of Judas, but it's the same tension, and I really appreciate that. I did have one note, too, on Shmuel says, you know, I came here to help you. And I thought, man, that is so such a great line for how we come to Jesus on our terms. And we're only. Okay if Jesus meets us on our terms. Like, I'm here to follow you, but only, like, whenever he steps out of what we have already, like, predetermined, this is where it's going to work. This is how it's going to function. We bail on it. And I thought I put a note down. Like, that's a good reflection point there as well.
- [26:52]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. But Shmuel is, you know, he's trying to find some common ground with Judas. And, like, he's like, okay, you know, I realize you're uncomfortable working with me, but, like, we are seeing some of the things the same way. So they're. They're trying to, like, process that. But then Yusuf and Arnon are coming out of the house, and they talk to Lazarus a bit as they are departing, and Yusuf's like, hey, just so you know, I don't. I don't share Yusuf or Shmuel's same perspective on all this stuff necessarily. He's like, no, no, I get it.
- [27:22]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [27:22]
Marty Solomon
And. And he said, like, Jesus wanted them to be there. Like, it was okay. So. And. And then he makes a comment about, like, have fun on the ride back.
- [27:32]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Right.
- [27:33]
Marty Solomon
Have a good. Have a good conversation.
- [27:35]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [27:36]
Marty Solomon
Right. Which we don't get to see, but I'm sure would have been great.
- [27:38]
Brent Billings
We got a dinner party between Herod and Pilate.
- [27:41]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. They are talking about how Pilate likes the matzo bread, apparently, which I was, like, totally confused.
- [27:47]
Brent Billings
Like, why are they having matzah? It's not. Pass. Was trying to figure a way there's all kinds of theories about the festival of unleavened bread historically, but that starts on Passover. So I was trying to keep. I mean, they're not. Yeah, I was trying to make that work. But anyway, I don't know why I got lost in that detail, but I was like, matzah bread. You shouldn't be having matzah bread yet. That's later. But anyway.
- [28:08]
Marty Solomon
Well, I mean, he probably has the power to have some made, even if it's not made to specifications for Passover. Sure. Yep. But Herod is kind of curious about Jesus, but Pilate brings up the whole thing with Lazarus. And Herod makes this warning about the Maccabean revolt. And those words apparently came from Caiaphas. So I guess that's at least part of his message.
- [28:31]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [28:31]
Marty Solomon
And then Pilate makes this suggestion that they should just ensure that Lazarus is actually dead. And that is sort of from John 12. But it's the chief priests who make that suggestion in John 12.
- [28:44]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [28:44]
Marty Solomon
Although could be both. I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in.
- [28:50]
Brent Billings
Sure.
- [28:51]
Marty Solomon
Keeping that situation a little more under wraps. But then Claudia, Pilate's wife, makes the comment, like, hold on.
- [29:00]
Brent Billings
If Jesus did indeed raise Lazarus and Caiaphas has Lazarus killed, and why wouldn't Jesus just resurrect him again?
- [29:16]
Marty Solomon
Well, now that would really be something, wouldn't it?
- [29:29]
Brent Billings
Right. Right.
- [29:30]
Marty Solomon
And then Joanna is, you know, sitting there looking pretty uncomfortable about the whole situation, and then she leaves. And it's her and Claudia on the rooftop in there talking about the crowds. And I loved this line from Claudia. She said, we come on foot hundreds.
- [29:47]
Brent Billings
Of miles to an overcrowded city with uncomfortable lodging options. Do you believe in anything? So much. I wonder what it would be like.
- [30:01]
Marty Solomon
To have that kind of belief. And they're just, like, wondering about how these people can have so much dedication to something. Claudia's, you know, offering her sympathies for the situation with Juza and Cassandra. And. And then Joanna's like, yeah, whatever, you know, that sucks. But she wants to know if Pilate is taking Jesus seriously. She's trying to, like, figure out her angle with that whole thing. And. And Claudia is like, ah, he's just kind of trying to prove himself. He's gotta, you know, keep his relationship with Tiberius good. And Joanna has a bad feeling about the thing, the whole thing, but she also thinks she's just kind of a prop in it and she doesn't have anything to do. And Claudia refers back to her previous comment. She's like, well, maybe we just need to believe in something as much as the Jews believe.
- [30:46]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Some good comments there. You pointed out. I love to entertain the concept of a potential connection between Claudia and Joanna that's not necessarily in the biblical history itself, but totally plausible. I mean, Joanna's connected to Herod's treasurer, Cuza. We know that they're not. That Pilate and Herod are not friends, but we're told in the Gospels that after the crucifixion, they become friends because of this interaction. So I just was like, oh, yeah. Wouldn't it be interesting if the wives. We know. Claudia has. Whether that's her name or not. Pilate's wife has dreams about Jesus. I mean, the connections were there. I was like, oh, so interesting to.
- [31:30]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [31:31]
Brent Billings
Consider the possibilities.
- [31:32]
Marty Solomon
And then we are over with James and John, and they are sitting down at a table and they're like, oh, Martha, cinnamon cakes. And then James is a little uncomfortable about it, and John's like, nope, I'm just gonna dig in. Like, why not? And then Nathaniel comes in and he's like, hey, I found somebody. Here's your email. And they're like, yeah, how did she know?
- [31:54]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:56]
Marty Solomon
So great.
- [31:57]
Brent Billings
Yes, absolutely.
- [31:58]
Marty Solomon
And then Jesus is out with Matthew and Z, and he's like, hey, go get this donkey. And, you know, I guess we'll talk about that more later. But Mother Mary comes out. This is the point where she brings out his bag, has the. That's where has the box in it. And she's talking about how hard it is to hear that her son's going to be buried soon. And he's like, yeah, I can't shield you from it anymore. Maybe you should stay back with Lazarus. And she's like, no, I want to enter the city with you, but we'll take it by day.
- [32:29]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. In light of the. The women, the faithful women that are there throughout the story. I kind of like that. That setup, even tying it into the Triumph entry. I thought that was. I don't know if interesting is the right word. I just. I like that whole. That play there. One of those relationships you just kind of forget about and don't. Don't consider throughout this part of the story.
- [32:49]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, they had quite a bit of discussion in the round table about it as far as, like, you know, what would Mary have known? How much. How much was she aware of what Jesus was doing? How much would they have talked about it? It's like, well, they probably would have talked about it more, but we Just don't know. So they just. They just went with this way to portray it. And it's not like she didn't know necessarily, but. Sure, you know, like. Like everybody else, she's probably in a little bit of denial about it, like, hoping that it's not.
- [33:16]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [33:16]
Marty Solomon
Hoping that she's misunderstood or something. You know, there's all sorts of ways that you could. Could look at her approach to the situation. And then we're over with Matthew and Z searching the city for the right donkey, and Atticus is following them. They find the donkey, they get to work, and somebody confronts them, and he asks if they're followers of Jesus. And. And this guy whose name is apparently Zechariah, he and z quote Zechariah 9, and he's just like, man, this culture today. Like, what are you waiting for? Get out of here. And then immediately after they leave, he gets on his own horse and rides ahead to town. Atticus follows him. And same thing like the Judas and Thomas situation earlier. Like, how did he not realize that Atticus was following him? Because he was so close on the horse behind him. But I don't know, maybe he's just so, like, consumed with the idea of, like, making sure everybody knows that Jesus is coming that he didn't care. I don't know.
- [34:13]
Brent Billings
Yep, yep.
- [34:15]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [34:15]
Brent Billings
It was an interesting depiction of the cult scene. Obviously, the disciples immediately have already made the connection to Zechariah 9. They kind of work that into the story. That's an interesting take. And I kind of like that. The one thing I kept wanting them to do is, like, Jesus tells them what to say, but part of what to say is he'll bring it back. Like, he talks about the return of the donkey, and they never do that.
- [34:39]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [34:40]
Brent Billings
In the seed, the Lord will bring it back. I was like, that's a big part. Like, tell him you'll bring it back. But obviously the way they depicted the scene, it doesn't matter. But it was just one of those things. I think it's my own personality of responsibility and whatever, where I was like, that's. You're forgetting the big part of I'm going to ethically use this. I will return it.
- [34:59]
Marty Solomon
Well, yeah. And the funny thing is, like, it's not even Zachariah's donkey. It's his master's donkey, apparently.
- [35:04]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes, yes. Yep, yep.
- [35:07]
Marty Solomon
But apparently. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's a. Maybe it's a situation where. I don't know. I don't know anything about who his Master is maybe it's like a Joanna situation where he's like, I'll funnel some resources out for the sake of Jesus. Cause sure. Or maybe it's. Could be a number of things. But yeah, funny depiction and lots of talk in the roundtable about this as well as far as reconciling whether it's two animals or one animal and how that whole thing works and. Yep, yeah, we've talked about that before. Lots of theories about why Matthew does what he does in his Gospel. We have our own that you can hear in session three somewhere. Oh, gosh, now I have to find that episode and link to it, but.
- [35:51]
Brent Billings
Statement of triumph, session three.
- [35:53]
Marty Solomon
There it is.
- [35:54]
Brent Billings
I did love, by the way, that his name also this guy's name happens to be Zachariah. Yeah. He probably knows the prophet Zechariah pretty well for own personal reasons.
- [36:03]
Marty Solomon
Well, and I also love Z. Like, is generally so textually aware.
- [36:09]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [36:09]
Marty Solomon
Like he has, you know, we see all sorts of scenes of him, like doing his exercises and like that physical study. But I like the more I see him interact in these later scenes, it's like, well, probably while he was doing all those physical exercises, he was going through text in his head at the same time.
- [36:30]
Brent Billings
Sure, yeah, sure. Never thought about it, but yeah, yeah.
- [36:32]
Marty Solomon
But then everyone's departing Lazarus's house. Lazarus does stay back. Jesus told him to lay low for a while. Of course. I mean, I think probably we don't necessarily have to do a God goggles thing here to imagine that Lazarus probably shouldn't show up. But then Zechariah finds Jesse and Veronica and he's telling them that Jesus is coming and everybody else that he's passing on the way that Jesus is coming. And the disciples are. Cuts to a shot briefly where the disciples are approaching where Jesus is with Mother Mary. And then from the other direction, Matthew and Z are coming back with the donkey. And everyone in town is getting palm branches down. I was a little confused because, like at one point they have somebody on a ladder, like getting the branches down from a tree, but then they're also being sold in the markets. So I don't know, like, were the people like, oh, we're gonna need branches, let's grab those real quick so we can sell them. Or is it like, would they have branches to sell anyway? But then they needed so many that they're also getting them out of the trees? Or what do you think is going on with that?
- [37:41]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it's probably a mixture of a little bit of both. I think there's a gospel record that says they cut down branches. So they're being true to the text by showing that there's not going to be enough branches to just do that. Depending on how large you think this crowd is for the triumphal entry. It's also not the time of year where you would be doing that. You're going to do that more for Sukkot. And so I think we've talked about on the podcast before, waving palm branches was, at different points in the Roman Empire a crucifiable offense. It's a move of a zealot. The zealots are the ones that wave palm branches. So you would assume that people have them, whether they're selling them in a market, but they're probably not cutting all of them that they need out of the. And then would they have been selling them for things like this? Possibly. But I actually thought, like, yeah, you're not just going to be cutting them all the palm branches you need out of the trees either. So it's not going to be that many around to be able to pull that off if you think you've got a very large crowd. So, anyway, I thought, yeah, that's one way of doing it. That's plausible to me.
- [38:40]
Marty Solomon
But Chuza is upset about the crowds, and Joanna's in the carriage or whatever with him, and she's kind of looking at the crowds, and you see the gears turning in her mind, and. And she's like, goodbye, Chuza. And she hops out and he's like, what? He tries to run after her, and the crowd pushes him. He's like, nope, I'm just getting back in. I'm not gonna deal with this.
- [39:01]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [39:02]
Marty Solomon
And then Arnan and Yusuf are there. They're watching all the palms go by. Veronica walks by and makes a reference to Hosanna. And then we're back out on the road, and Jesus is getting out the box, and Pilot and Claudia are watching the crowds, uneasy about the whole thing. Joanna is now buying palm branches and giving them away to people, including to Shmuel.
- [39:29]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting interaction. To which he throws it on the ground. And you see, like, ah, man. It's just another reinforcement of. He was so close and now he is rejecting the moment. Yeah.
- [39:40]
Marty Solomon
Caiaphas is watching the crowd as well. And then we see Jesus opening the box, pulls out the bridle. Z bridles the donkey. Jesus addresses his disciples. Peter does the ending of John 6, and Jesus does the beginning of John 13. So we're pulling a few elements of text together in this shot. But then Jesus just like effortlessly hops on this donkey and rides off. And I noted that Mother Mary follows him first and then Peter after that and then everyone else kind of followed from there. And. And we also see specifically James and John are kind of walking with Thomas. Thomas is. He doesn't seem as angry as he was before, but I think he's still, yeah. Relatively confused and he's like I'm. I guess I'll go with you guys. I don't really get it anymore. Yeah, he's you know, in whatever. Whatever stage of grief that is. But yeah, definitely feeling for Thomas in this moment.
- [40:37]
Brent Billings
And another one of those. I mean more than once they've had one of these season closers where it's Jesus and the disciples walking into the next chapter. The next moment I think of when they were headed the Samaritan woman story where they headed off into the sun. Like that was that season ending. Walking off into the sunset. And I thought it's got the same vibe, the same tone. Very clever like it. And just a great spot to end. Like if you're gonna break up the season for season five triumphal ent into that last week, I'm assuming season five. I don't know. I don't know how they're going to do these last seasons. Like how it all maps out. I think you've found a record of us somewhere. But I'm assuming this next season will be the last week and it's a great cutoff point for that would be the great segue transition is going to be the triumphal entry. So very clever.
- [41:28]
Marty Solomon
I don't think there's actually any record of it. I don't think they've actually said how they're mapping everything out. I had some kind of a theory at one point. I think my theory has broken down at this point.
- [41:38]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I would have been close to what I thought they were going to do. But now I'm assuming you're going to do the final week as one season.
- [41:44]
Marty Solomon
But then you have two more seasons after that. You have an entire season for the. Yeah, maybe you do the death and the resurrection and then the se. Season seven is post resurrection.
- [41:53]
Brent Billings
I was going to say they may. They may take you right up to like another one of those same transitions of them heading out with the cross. Maybe we're just purely speculating here. You could do the death, burial and resurrection as Season 6 with a follow up season. All it does is make me excited because I was worried. Like I Want them to do some post resurrection stuff. I don't know what they'll do with it. They have toyed with it and played with these futuristic John writing his gospel, Matthew meeting with Mary, like all that. They've played with that enough that I'm like, okay, this is. They've definitely set up a potential season seven that goes in that direction. I just don't know what they're going to do. So I'll be interested to find out.
- [42:33]
Marty Solomon
Either that or all that stuff is going to end up in the way of the chosen. That a new show on ax. So I don't know.
- [42:39]
Brent Billings
Yeah. You still got seven seasons that they've got, right? They've said it's going to be seven seasons, so they've got to have mapped it out. It's got to be something.
- [42:44]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [42:45]
Brent Billings
I don't think we're going to take three seasons to go between triumphal entry and the resurrection. That's. That would be wild. But maybe, maybe I feel like the.
- [42:54]
Marty Solomon
Last shot has to be Jesus ascending into heaven. Right? Like that's, that's the closing shot of the whole series.
- [42:59]
Brent Billings
I mean, probably it could be. You've, you've, you've typically been right. But I don't, I don't know.
- [43:05]
Marty Solomon
I don't know.
- [43:06]
Brent Billings
I mean, that would make sense. You do have some post resurrection as a possibility. Brent's possibility. I would think maybe I would make that the end of season six for me. But that's because of what I want.
- [43:18]
Marty Solomon
I want something else you could do, you know, something along those lines. And, and then like the Way of the Chosen, that show opens up with Pentecost, but you've got all that stuff prior to Pentecost where the disciples are kicking around.
- [43:35]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I don't know.
- [43:36]
Marty Solomon
I don't know. Total speculation on our part. But yeah. Then we're just into the credits from there.
- [43:42]
Brent Billings
Okay.
- [43:42]
Marty Solomon
And then the outtakes, Marty, that you totally missed.
- [43:44]
Brent Billings
Lay it on me.
- [43:45]
Marty Solomon
I mean, I don't know. There's my copy. I have a Blu ray copy. And the first outtake is Shamai saying something and there's like some weird video encoding errors. So he's like jumping around and maybe that's why it's an outtake. Like maybe when they actually recorded it, something went wrong with the recording. I don't know. I have a hard time imagining that. There's also a scene where Thomas misses the action cue and he speaks without his accent, which is totally weird, but great. There's an outtake with. It's where Z and Judas are washing the clothes and Z addresses Judas as Jesus. And I was like, yes. He's not the. I'm not the only one who mixes it up.
- [44:30]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. That's good.
- [44:33]
Marty Solomon
There's David with the lamb and he like, the lamb is just like all over the place. Can't get him to cooperate, can't get him to stand still. It's like, that's more what I would expect from the behavior of a sheep. I would imagine they probably had to shoot that scene a number of times to get the lamb to do what they wanted.
- [44:50]
Brent Billings
Yeah, totally.
- [44:51]
Marty Solomon
Arnon wakes Yusuf up. I guess it's the scene. What was that scene when he wakes him up about Lazarus being raised, maybe. Was it that news? I don't know. But anyway, Arnon wakes up Yusuf and is like, hey, your mom's cooking bacon. And I was like, whoa, let's do it.
- [45:14]
Brent Billings
Your mom has no care for the traditions of our elders or the law of Moses.
- [45:20]
Marty Solomon
And then Jesus is. I'm assuming this is an ad lib, but he's speaking to Lazarus and he's like, blah, blah, blah. Lazarus says something and Jesus is like, oh, not on your life. And then he pauses for a moment. He's like, that joke might not work in hindsight.
- [45:33]
Brent Billings
Yeah, nice.
- [45:34]
Marty Solomon
And then Yani, in that scene with the. Oh, it wasn't the Sanhedrin. It was just when they were in that room kind of arguing back and forth about resurrection and this life and the next life and all that stuff. And I don't know if this was just like they were waiting for something and Yanni's just kind of like goofing around or if he was just like ad libbing a bunch of arguments to give them some stuff to work with, but all very punny stuff, but yeah, some good outtakes, some fun stuff there.
- [46:01]
Brent Billings
Yeah. I listened to another podcast that I've referenced before that will go unnamed about another show. And they talk sometimes about production and they say often in shows that get produced, like, you have a certain amount of takes that you're going to do as written, you're going to do exactly what's written. And then often if you have extra time and extra, I mean, you used to have to worry about footage like what you could actually film on. Now digitally, you don't have to worry about that, but if you have extra ability, they turn you loose and let you ad lib because you never know what you're going to get that you're going to be able to use and will end up being gold. And so I would bet there's probably a lot of that that goes on even with the chosen, like, okay, we've got the takes we need. We've got it as written. Now how would you actors or whatever. How would you redo this scene? What would you do here instead? And they talk about how it's some of the most fun that they get to have us actors and actresses.
- [46:57]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. There was another one that I'm remembering now of Jesus and Judas when they're standing out and Jesus is looking at that sheepfold, and Jesus is making all these comments about like, oh, I could really go for a lamb chop.
- [47:10]
Brent Billings
Help.
- [47:10]
Marty Solomon
I'm so hungry right now. And Judas, like, pauses for a moment and turns to him and he's like, I'm gonna betray you so hard, man. And, yeah, like, that's all fun, but there's also, like, it seems like maybe some of the real lines are actually mixed in with that. And I was like, that might have been the real. That might have been the real thing. And they just cut out those extra. And they're just, you know, lots of pauses, lots of, like, you know, sometimes it's like, clear that somebody has forgotten their line and they're making something up. But then I think Jonathan Roumie in particular is pretty good at, like, when he doesn't remember exactly what he's supposed to say. Like, yeah, he comes up with some good stuff. I. I am starting to get the impression that he ad libs and adds quite a bit to. Sure. The scenes with. With his own ideas.
- [47:54]
Brent Billings
So, yeah.
- [47:55]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, that's season four, Marty.
- [47:57]
Brent Billings
All right. I feel pretty good. Looking forward to season five.
- [48:00]
Marty Solomon
I feel good, too. We'll. We'll be back whenever the time is appropriate, whenever we're able, whenever it is available to be seen. You know, we will probably wait until it is at least available on streaming because I like to go to the theater, I imagine, you know, I'm not alone. Alone, but much more accessible when it's available for streaming. So once it hits streaming, then we'll get going on our. Our stuff and. And we'll see how that works out. But, yep, yeah, it was good. Good season, good discussion. You know, as we get into this. This next portion of Jesus Life, there's a whole lot more gospel text to work with here. So this season, I feel like even I've been starting to see a lot more of that text worked in. And I'm just impressed by how these actors are delivering these lines that are straight out of the text. And yet they just.
- [48:47]
Brent Billings
Yep.
- [48:48]
Marty Solomon
They feel so human and so natural and. And, yeah, they're all doing a great job with it.
- [48:52]
Brent Billings
Yep, totally.
- [48:53]
Marty Solomon
So I look forward to the next one, but that will do it for this commentary. And thanks for joining us on this journey. We'll talk to you again soon.