427: Hosea — How Empty Is Empty?

Summary

Episode Summary: The BEMA Podcast Episode 427 - “Hosea — How Empty Is Empty?”

Release Date: December 5, 2024
Host: Marty Solomon
Co-Hosts: Brent Billings and Reed Dent
Guest: Reed Dent

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Introduction

In Episode 427 of The BEMA Podcast, titled “Hosea — How Empty Is Empty?”, hosts Marty Solomon and Brent Billings delve into the prophetic messages of Hosea, exploring themes of futility, idolatry, and the intricate relationship between worship and politics. Joined by utility expert Reed Dent, the discussion navigates through historical contexts, biblical metaphors, and contemporary applications, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own spiritual and societal practices.

Main Discussion

**1. The Futility of Actions Without God

Brent Billings initiates the conversation by referencing Hosea’s prophecy, emphasizing the importance of having God at the center of repentance and righteous actions. He draws parallels to John 15, where Jesus states, “Apart from me, you can do nothing” (John 15:5), underscoring the futility of endeavors undertaken without divine guidance.

Brent Billings (02:00): "The futility of doing something. No matter how good, no matter how logical... if we do it without God, it's empty. And if it's empty, how. How empty is empty."

**2. Historical Context and Idolatry

The discussion shifts to the historical setting of Hosea, focusing on the northern kingdom of Israel, particularly Samaria. Marty Solomon explains the construction of altars in Dan and Bethel by King Jeroboam as political strategies that led to idolatrous practices, symbolized by the worship of golden calves. This act is portrayed as a compromise of Torah principles for political expediency.

Marty Solomon (05:00): "Jeroboam was setting up another kingdom, and rather than follow the ways of Torah, he was doing what seemed to him to be politically expedient... worship of BAAL symbolized by the bull worship of the God of Israel."

**3. Idolatry and Politics: A Two-Way Street

Reed Dent introduces a critical analysis of the intertwining between idolatry and politics, suggesting that political allegiances can become forms of idolatry when they overshadow genuine worship of God. He warns of the dangers inherent in placing ultimate trust and dependence on political figures or systems.

Reed Dent (09:20): "There is a political element to idolatry. There's also an idolatrous element to politics. The danger is really real for idolatry and government."

**4. Contemporary Reflections and Personal Accountability

The hosts reflect on contemporary society, particularly in the context of election years, where political divisions can strain familial and social relationships. They emphasize the necessity of self-criticism and communal reflection to avoid the pitfalls of idolatrous allegiance, advocating for open dialogues across different viewpoints to foster genuine faithfulness and unity.

Reed Dent (31:06): "Any people that has lost the capacity for self-criticism will become idolatrous. We need to have conversations together and correct one another."

**5. Sowing the Wind: Metaphors of Destruction

Brent Billings elaborates on the biblical metaphor of “sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind” (Hosea 8:7), illustrating how futile and destructive efforts devoid of divine purpose can lead to greater chaos and self-destruction. The metaphor serves as a cautionary tale about the consequences of persistent idolatrous actions.

Brent Billings (22:06): "The wind's just blowing in a circle and it's going. It's going nowhere, but you keep kind of feeding it. It keeps getting fed. And then it becomes this massive whirlwind cyclone that is now an unstoppable force."

Insights and Conclusions

**1. The Nature of Idolatry

The episode underscores that idolatry is not merely the worship of physical idols but extends to any form of ultimate allegiance that detracts from the worship of God. Whether through political systems, leaders, or societal norms, the danger lies in allowing these entities to assume the central role meant for divine worship.

Brent Billings (35:57): "Am I having a posture of allegiance or idolatrous worship that I need to be checked on?"

**2. Self-Reflection and Community Accountability

A recurring theme is the importance of self-awareness and accountability within a community. The hosts advocate for an environment where individuals can openly reflect on their practices and beliefs, ensuring that their actions align with their spiritual commitments rather than succumbing to societal pressures or political conveniences.

Reed Dent (32:57): "How are we participating in idolatry? Can we hear this? Are we too blinded? Have we forgotten our maker?"

**3. The Ongoing Relevance of Hosea

By dissecting Hosea’s messages, the episode highlights the timeless relevance of prophetic teachings. The issues addressed in ancient times mirror contemporary challenges, making Hosea’s insights crucial for modern listeners to navigate their spiritual and societal engagements.

Marty Solomon (26:56): "Did anybody have the ability, the guts, the presence to truly hear that word, hear the message, look at it, consider it, truly change their ways?"

Notable Quotes

• Brent Billings (02:00): "If we do it without God, it's empty. And if it's empty, how. How empty is empty."

• Reed Dent (09:20): "There is a political element to idolatry. There's also an idolatrous element to politics."

• Reed Dent (31:06): "Any people that has lost the capacity for self-criticism will become idolatrous."

• Brent Billings (22:06): "The wind's just blowing in a circle and it's going nowhere, but you keep kind of feeding it. It keeps getting fed."

Closing Remarks

In concluding the episode, the hosts reiterate the importance of self-criticism and communal reflection to combat idolatrous tendencies. They encourage listeners to engage in honest introspection and maintain genuine relationships that prioritize spiritual integrity over political or societal allegiance.

Marty Solomon (35:57): "Perhaps some reflection that we can do some self-criticism. And maybe we need to make some apologies over the Christmas dinner table for how we approach things or whatever."

Final Thoughts:

Episode 427 of The BEMA Podcast offers a profound exploration of Hosea’s prophecy, urging listeners to evaluate the authenticity of their actions and allegiances. By intertwining historical context with contemporary issues, the hosts provide a compelling narrative on the enduring battle against idolatry and the pursuit of genuine worship.

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Connect with The BEMA Podcast:

For more insights and detailed discussions, visit baymontsypesurf.com to access show notes and additional resources, including photos from Tel Dan referenced in the episode.

Transcript

[Marty Solomon]

Foreign. This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are with Red Dent to discuss the futility of reaping a whirlwind. Why would we keep going back to empty expecting to find anything else?

[Brent Billings]

Who else would we have? Join us on a podcast about futility. Let's go right to the experts. Reed, good to have you with us.

[Reed Dent]

Hello. Thank you for having me on the show. It's utility expert Reed Dent here with you today. Glad to be back. Yes, as always. That was an excellent little tagline there, though, Brent. The little intro that was.

[Marty Solomon]

That's all Marty. Marty writes these.

[Reed Dent]

Really? Marty, that was. That gave me a little bit of like, ooh. Like give me a little goosebumps.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, well, sometimes I'll refine it, but usually, I mean, the vast majority of what you're hearing me doing the intros is Marty behind the scenes.

[Brent Billings]

We didn't need to give that away.

[Marty Solomon]

He's the executive producer, after all.

[Brent Billings]

I am. That's true. Ep, baby. Well, we're going to pick up today where we left off in the last episode, which was this call to make sure that as we work through repentance, as we're pursuing, trying to bear fruit, in keeping with repentance, the one thing we have to make sure, no matter where we're coming from, is that God's in it. Like God's in the midst of it. And so we're really going to pick up there because that's where Hosea is at, in the middle of Hosea's prophecy. If we choose to do something without that, if we choose to pursue this without God being in the midst of it, how much is any of it truly going to accomplish? I think last time I said I was thinking about John the Baptist. This time I think of another John. I think of John 15. I think of Jesus talking about the vine. Apart from me, you can do nothing. And whenever I see this subtitle in Hosea, Reaping the Whirlwind, I just think of the futility of doing something. No matter how good, no matter how logical, no matter how well thought out, no matter how wonderfully planned or supported or resourced. If we do it without God, it's empty. And if it's empty, how. How empty is empty.

[Reed Dent]

So, Marty, you're saying. You're saying I'm an expert in that?

[Brent Billings]

Well, I mean, I didn't want to connect those dots. Who am I kidding? Of course I did.

[Reed Dent]

But we can't do this. We're Way friendlier with each other on the podcast now than we used to be.

[Brent Billings]

We are, we're trying, we've tried to put those days behind us all fall back into my where. Where we're good friends that, that don't treat each other like that.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, we, we save that for just the privacy of our. When we're in our own homes hanging out together, then the claws come out.

[Marty Solomon]

This is going to make the reboot really weird because people are be like, oh, Marty and Reed, you know, just two piece in a pod through session five and then we get to session six and all of a sudden, yeah, so true.

[Reed Dent]

They're like, what happened? Did they.

[Marty Solomon]

Who is this monster?

[Brent Billings]

Who is this? What has happened?

[Reed Dent]

Somebody having a bad day?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Reed Dent]

I had not thought about that. But that's, that's very funny. We should just go back and we'll edit some just splices to put in on top of the audio in that season six episode. And insults become.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm sorry, no, you don't like that idea.

[Reed Dent]

I bet nobody would even notice.

[Brent Billings]

Well, Brent, with no further ado, we should jump into Hosea 8.

[Marty Solomon]

Sounds good. Put the trumpet to your lips. An eagle is over the house of the Lord, because the people have broken my covenant and rebelled against my law. Israel cries out to me, Our God, we acknowledge you. But Israel has rejected what is good. An enemy will pursue him. They set up kings without my consent. They choose princes without my approval. With their silver and gold they make idols for themselves to their own destruction. Samaria, throw out your calf idol. My anger burns against them. How long will they be incapable of purity? They are from Israel. This calf. A metal worker has made it. It is not God. It will be broken in pieces. That calf of Samaria, we have here another.

[Brent Billings]

We talked about living metaphor at the beginning of this series referencing Hosea. Perhaps a lived experience, perhaps just a metaphor, but we have another living metaphor that's going to serve us quite well here in Hosea 8. Speaking of Israel also, aka Samaria, Samaria being kind of that capital city of the northern kingdom. So whenever you see Samaria, we see that here in Hosea 8. Just a reference to this northern kingdom that's under examination, but definitely have a living metaphor. Brent, you have some photos from a couple years ago, a few years ago when we were there at Tel Dan. And you're going to throw those in a presentation. They might be in the chapter art, however that works.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I'll probably put one in the chapter arts, just so people have a reference. But then I'll put a presentation with several photos, so if you want a few extra views of it, you can check out that presentation.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So we are told that in the scriptural narrative, we're told that Israel, the northern kingdom, sets up two temples, two altars at Dan all the way in the north. And, I mean, it's all the way up in the north.

[Marty Solomon]

All the way in the north. That's right. Like, hey, look over there, about a thousand feet, there's Lebanon.

[Brent Billings]

Yep. Absolutely. It is not a site that we would, as we record this, be headed to if we were over in Israel at the moment.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, no.

[Brent Billings]

So you have that. That temple and that altar in Dan. You have another one all the way in the south of the northern kingdom. He didn't want to go all the way down to Jerusalem because that was in the southern kingdom. We can't have that. And so Jeroboam built. The sin of Jeroboam, referenced often in the. The Old Testament. You had the altar in Dan and the altar in Bethel. Bethel, the house of God. And we're told that at these. Basically, these altars were like replicas of the temple. They basically have the same dimensions, the same basic structure as the temple in Jerusalem, and they have an altar there. But we're told in the biblical narrative that what they had in the temple was golden calves, which seems like an interesting choice given the Exodus story, but it wasn't really a throwback to the Exodus story and the golden calf there, although it's hard to believe they didn't see the irony, but basically a literal outworking of Israel's political compromise. This is what Jeroboam was doing. Jeroboam was setting up another kingdom, and rather than follow the ways of Torah, he was doing what seemed to him to be politically expedient, which was, I need to put new places of worship. I need to have some level of syncretism so that everybody wants to be here. And so this worship of BAAL symbolized by the bull worship of the God of Israel, and these things kind of get combined together with these golden calves. What an interesting conversation. Reid, what are you thinking as we pull this thing apart?

[Reed Dent]

I'm remembering I was in Israel too, with you. Not the same trip that Brent took the pictures on, but a couple of years ago. And I remember being at this, and I remember the lesson that you taught. I think you sang some Carmen while we were there.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely, I did.

[Reed Dent]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And is not afraid to fight. So that's what I'm thinking about right now. Just a plug for if those trips ever happen in the future. Folks, you really got to get there because there is a. There is a very fun song and dance side of Marty that.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Reed Dent]

When the spirit moves, you know, you got to sing. Gotta sing Carmen.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely. Absolutely. You do. Oh, goodness gracious. That's so great.

[Reed Dent]

Right now it's. Whereas we're recording this, it's October 17th, which means that a very big, important day is coming up pretty soon for our country.

[Marty Solomon]

Are the Chiefs playing the Bengals again?

[Brent Billings]

No, Brent. No, no.

[Marty Solomon]

Sorry. I just had to break the tension.

[Reed Dent]

A little bit anyway. Almost as big as that.

[Marty Solomon]

Almost as big as that. Okay.

[Reed Dent]

A certain political day, and I think, gosh, prophet's got nothing to say to us about politics, right?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Goodness. Yeah. We've made a few references along our way to get here, but. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah. This passage gives me Big Isaiah 30 vibes, which is where the prophet is talking about the people going and making an alliance, but not of the spirit of the Lord. You remember this?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah. Yep.

[Reed Dent]

Stubborn children who make an alliance, not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin, who set out to go down to Egypt without asking for my direction, to take refuge in the protection of Pharaoh and seek shelter in the shadow of Egypt. This passage gives me those kind of vibes, except for we're going to Assyria this time. And I think the big idea that stands out to me here is that. I guess you could say it either way. There's a political element to idolatry. There's also an idolatrous element to politics. Well, that's at least possible, maybe not inherently.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, that's good. Say that again. Hold on. Say that one more time.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, yeah. So there is a political element to idolatry. Oh, yeah. And also an idolatrous element to politics. Or at least I think it's possible. Maybe it's not inherent.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

But the danger is really real for idolatry and government. Idolatry and politics.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Because, you know, the government, the rulers, the powers, I guess you could draw parallels between those and. And God or the idea of God here is this big sort of intangible all present thing that is directing our paths and providing for us. And I. I think the prophets just see these as very. The religion and the politics are very intertwined. So look at verse four, where in the same verse we just flow really smoothly from setting up kings, but not through me. That's actually the phrase that made me think of Isaiah. They're doing this, but it's not by me. It's not through me. I didn't say that. Installing nobles, but without my knowledge. And the next sentence, from their silver and their gold, they made themselves idols. And you just get this flow of one right into the other. And I think the danger is. Or what Israel or the Samaria, whatever you want to call them here in this passage, what they are doing is they're looking for things that I think we all look for from our. From our governments, protection, prosperity. But the exchange that they make is this kind of allegiance that goes, I think, beyond. I can't say exactly what it. I mean, if they're building calves in the temple, then that's telling you something.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

But it goes beyond simple good citizenship to something more a posture of idolatry. And they'll give that away if it means that they can have this protection, this prosperity. Like you said, the term politically expedient.

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Reed Dent]

And. And what we will sacrifice in terms of our worship and our faithfulness to God for a little bit of political expedience. Seems like that's probably always been a problem for us humans, ever since we've had governments.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

But then what I see too is that this always is going to end in disappointment. It's always going to end in destruction or just discarding. Like, you get this. It's. It's kind of a sad picture that they're. They're sort of giving away their allegiance. They're making these alliances in a hasty kind of way. But, but then look at some of these lines here in verse five. This, this line, man, this hit me. Your calf rejects you.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, sure. Absolutely.

[Reed Dent]

You think of. I think you typically think of idols as these inanimate, passive. They. They receive, you know, worship, they receive attention, but they don't really do anything.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Reed Dent]

And now suddenly the calf springs to life and what is it doing? It's not providing anything for you, it's actually rejecting you.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Or in. In verse. Sorry, I'm skipping ahead a little bit from where we've read already, but in verse 8, it says that Israel becomes among the nations like a vessel no one wants. Like you've been swallowed up, chewed around, and now you're spit back out because you're not. You're not really wanted.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And then also looking ahead a little bit more, even to verse 10, which says they will soon tremble from the burden of kings and nobles, the very kings and nobles we just heard about, the ones that they set up. Yeah. Give us this king. Give us this noble. And now you're going to tremble because this becomes a burden to you. It becomes like a shackle to you. And so the. The message to me is that whoever thinks. If anyone thinks that worship and politics can be kept separate, I. I just don't think they're reading the prophets very closely.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Now, I don't want to be misunderstood here because this could easily be taken as, ah, so then God has selected out in our. In our American culture.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Context. God has picked this one candidate, and this is the right one, and so the other one is the devil's one. So you better choose right and be on God's side, because it's, you know, worship and politics is all wrapped up with other. That's not what I'm trying to say, but I'm rather trying to point out a posture toward the entire kind of system, the entire entity, which becomes very dangerous. And it can happen. No matter who you think your candidate is or who you think God's candidate might be, there is this tendency to have a posture of kind of ultimate trust, ultimate hope, ultimate dependence. And, I mean, come on, you can see this pretty readily in just how worked up we all get around this time of year or around this time every four years, you know what I'm saying? Where it feels like, gosh, the world's gonna end if this outcome doesn't happen.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Or if that outcome doesn't happen. And it seems. Does that point to a kind of idolatry where we're like, oh, man, everything depends on our alliance with this particular power, with this particular king, with this particular noble.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And I think what. What's scary to me is that in this passage, the people seem not. They seem more or less unaware of what's going on. Like, look at the way that it starts there. In verse two, they cry out, we know you. We. We know. We know you. And I read that, and the word that came to my mind was delusional. They say they know him, but then we get every. And then the very next line. Israel rejects what is good. And so it's scary to me that you can have this kind of level, this. This level of idolatry, this level of false allegiance that that can happen. And yet you can still think, oh, yeah, no, like, we. We know God. There's a line later in the chapter in verse 12, where God is speaking and says, I wrote. I wrote for Israel my many teachings. But, like, something strange, they were viewed. Like, I. I set out a way. But it was. It seemed weird to you.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And so then in that weirdness, this is in what ends up happening is we. We get distorted ways, we get distorted worship. So I just. I don't know. I mean, I'm not trying to get on like a. Like a big political high horse here or anything, but. And I realized that, you know, by the time this comes out, the election will have passed, but it still felt like a eerily relevant word for just the season of life that we are in. And maybe just a good gut check to all of us about, like, am I participating or am I having a posture of allegiance or idolatrous worship that I. That I need to be checked on? That's. That's what I see.

[Marty Solomon]

We already talked about this all in the last episode, dude. And chapter. Chapter seven talks about how, like, they had called on each before, but now they're turning to Assyria, and that's not going to work out any better for them. And then at the end of chapter seven, Egypt is making fun of them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Because of how. How poor they're, like, oh, you thought that they were going to be better for you, but no.

[Reed Dent]

Okay.

[Marty Solomon]

You're all a bunch of idiots.

[Reed Dent]

So what you're saying is that Jose is just beating a dead horse and won't stop saying the same thing over and over again.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, maybe, but I did challenge people. I was like, hey, I'm not saying anything one way or the other, but think about who your Egypt is. Think about who your Assyria is. And should you really be turning to either one of them?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I mean, Reid, at one point in there, you asked the question about, like, how severe can this idolatry be? And this. This is scheduled to post when, Brent? This episode.

[Marty Solomon]

December 5th.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, December 5th. So right after. I mean, I don't know what we just experienced last week for people listening to this episode. Like, we're recording this in October. And one of the things that I'm talking about in a lot of circ with people, a lot of the conversation that's coming up is, here we are in another one of these election years, and we don't want to go home for Thanksgiving. Like, when you think about the things that we hold most, like a human being holds most dear family for a lot of us, like, some of us have bad family situations, but for a lot of us, like family, we hold family. That's like one of our highest values. Like, thicker than blood. Like what? Like, what could be thicker than blood? Like, what apparently politics can be. Like, apparently this idolatry can be. Because it makes us not even want to be home for the holidays. Like, that's how. That's the vitriol that we can carry with us or have thrown at us or. Yikes. It feels like if there's anything that should be an indicator of that answer to your question, how bad can this be? It's that it has the ability. It has. It has its talons in our families, our friendships, our relationships.

[Reed Dent]

But, yeah, the word that comes to my mind is identity or identify. Like, if I am so identified by this particular allegiance that I can't even go home to be with my own family, because what. What, what. What they identify with and what I identify with are two different things. And they're so core to us that it causes us to divide. It's like, well, you know, as a people, Israel, like, they're identifying their root identifying thing is meant to be God himself. And this is what we. This is what gathers us. And so we can. Doesn't mean we have to agree on everything. We can think that this candidate or that candidate or this platform or that platform, like, we can disagree about those things, but if we're doing that in a posture, I think, of true worship, that. That we should still be able to gather around. Well, literally, the. We talk about gathering around the table at Bayma a lot, but, like the literal Thanksgiving table, but also figuratively around the table, despite our various kind of. Well, it's like I could almost picture in a weird way, like, oh, yeah, like, maybe Assyria, maybe something good with them, or maybe Egypt, something good with them. But instead it's, like, so entrenched, and it's like, no, we need to swear our allegiance to, you know, the. This king or that king. And if you're not with us, then you're against us. And then I think that's an indicator that we've gone off the rails.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. Well said, Brent. Give us a few more verses here. Keep us going.

[Marty Solomon]

They sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. The stalk has no head, it will produce no flour. Were it to yield grain, foreigners would swallow it up. Israel is swallowed up now she is among the nations like something no one wants for they have gone up to Assyria like a wild donkey wandering alone. Ephraim has sold herself to lovers Although they have sold themselves among the nations I will now gather them together they will begin to waste away under the oppression of the mighty king.

[Brent Billings]

Right, so we're, like, sensing the fallout of everything we've been talking about. If I were to reword some of these things, maybe it would be that you're playing the wrong game. You're playing the world's game. You're trying to do all this stuff. And last chapter, it was, you're trying to do all this stuff without God. In this chapter, I do hear some echoes of. I mean, in Hosea 7, it was like, you're not even calling on me. You're not calling on me. In Hosea 8, there's been a couple references of, well, you're calling on me, but you're still playing the world's game. And this game always ends the same way. You always end up in the same place. I think of what Reid was just saying in that first section of Hosea, the calf rejecting you. In verse 5, Israel becomes among the nations like a vessel no one wants. Verse 8, they will soon tremble from the burden of kings and nobles. Verse 10, like all the things that they're setting up this own worldview. Like Reid was saying, we often picture it as kind of like this neutral, empty representation of our idolatry. But even this thing that you build, even this thing that you set up, even this thing that you try to empower will so not work. It will be found so unsustainable that it actually turns itself, this empty thing, its emptiness, turns itself against you. And just the way that this, the emptiness itself, the futility, will mock you. Like, last chapter Egypt will ridicule you. Like this thing that you thought would be so full will actually be empty. It will be so empty that the emptiness itself will turn around and turn back and mock you. So that's what I thought about when I read these verses is how true that observation was that you mentioned earlier. Reid.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, I mean, think about the way that the image there in what verse is that? 7. Yeah. Think about the way that the image progresses and builds. You start with sewing the wind, and I imagine even like a. Maybe it's a strong wind, maybe it's a breeze. But then what you get is a whirlwind. And this thing has, like. I just picture the way that a cyclone forms, you know?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And it is futile. Like the wind's just blowing in a circle and it's going. It's going nowhere, but you keep kind of feeding it. It keeps getting fed. And then it becomes this massive whirlwind cyclone that is now an unstopp force that you didn't. You didn't see coming. You didn't mean for it to be that way. But when. When you keep. And I mean, it is funny that last week, like in Hosea 7, I ended up accidentally repeating things that I didn't even know were said. But I think it just speaks to the nature of this. That's like the cyclical. Well, we keep doing the same thing. So the prophet's got to keep saying the same thing because it's not. It's not getting through. And eventually, though, the power becomes so destructive, like an F5 tornado. You know, I live in the Midwest where tornadoes come through. And I mean, there's. They're like a mile wide and a million miles an hour, and they destroy everything in their path. And that's what you. That's what you end up harvesting when. When you sow the. And just also the idea of trying to sew the wind, like, it reminds me kind of Ecclesiastes, actually. But just that idea. Like, what. What does that even. How. How would you even. It's a nonsensical image that hits really hard because of how absurd it is.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

And you. Do you find that in these wisdom. And there is. I was just actually studying not long ago the relationship between the. And I never would even have guessed it or seen it. But it was in my grad work, somebody I was reading was making the connection between the wisdom tradition and the prophetic tradition, and that one of the theories is that prophecy actually came out of a wisdom tradition. Or maybe it was the other way around. I can't remember. But I think what you're seeing there is the same kind of connections that are drawn out in that kind of perspective. There is a. There's this beautiful poetic metaphor that's. It really is. It's not just like the connection between absurdity and wisdom is so rich. And I love that. I do love that a lot.

[Reed Dent]

It's almost as if every set number. There's almost like a schedule of years. Like maybe every four years, like this situation came about where you see a whirlwind of divisiveness and fear and anxiety sweep through.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And you then have a chance to learn from that and see, well, this happened four years ago. Where did it get us last time? And the prophet's like, hey, instead of that, why. Why don't you worship God? And they're like, yeah, but no, but this time. And then the whirlwind comes through.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And they're like, but that'll probably never happen again. But then. And then it's almost like, well, four years later after that, here comes another opportunity, and will we learn? Or will we be caught in this cyclone and have to keep being told over and over and over again. Like, y'all. Yeah, this isn't good. It's not working. Like, your devotion, your idolatrous allegiance. Like, it's not. It's not good for you. It's not working.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Yeah, we'll just turn back around again on. On schedule, on cue. And so a little bit more wind and the whirlwind seems to continue to grow. And it really does. Like, I keep having that. And it could just be my. What it means to be in the moment, I don't know. But I keep thinking back over my adult lifetime and thinking, man, is this getting worse? And maybe Jose is right. Yeah, it's getting worse. Like, you keep sewing wind, and it keeps growing and progressing into something worse and worse and worse because it's never going to. It's never going to turn back around and cycle back around into goodness. It's not going to all of a sudden become a harvest. There's nothing to harvest there. It's all emptiness. Brent, give us the last little bit of Hosea eight. Dare we proceed? I don't know, but here we go.

[Marty Solomon]

Though Ephraim built many altars for sin offerings, these have become altars for sinning. I wrote for them the many things of my law, but they regarded them as something foreign. Though they offer sacrifices as gifts to me, and though they eat the meat, the Lord is not pleased with them. Now he will remember their wickedness and punish their sins. They will return to Egypt. Israel has forgotten their maker and built palaces. Judah has fortified many towns. But I will send fire on their cities that will consume their fortresses.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I wasn't even sure where Reid was going to go with his commentary earlier. And I just, you know, I have in my own notes, thoughts that I think. I think they really parallel what we were saying earlier, Reid, like, how scary it can be. You said what's scary to you is that the people seem to be more or less unaware of their idolatry. And here in this passage, the people think they're offering biblical offerings, like, they think they're doing God's will. They've convinced themselves this temple's the right temple. This is the right. And they're not like they are in their minds, biblical offerings, but those same offerings showed a sense of disregard for Torah. Like, it's those same offerings that disregard what God said about where that temple was supposed to be and exactly how it was supposed to function. Obviously, that's the letter of Torah. These biblical air quotes, biblical sacrifices disregard the spirit of Torah. As we've been reading all throughout the prophecy, there's this phrase here they offer sacrifices and eat their meat. There's one of the photos you have, Brent, of the altar. You can see in the background our wonderful tour guide. His name is Yehuda. And I remember being at this site with my group, the first group that I took there, which I think might have been the group that you took Those photos @brent 2022.

[Marty Solomon]

That was the first time you'd been there, I think.

[Brent Billings]

So I was there earlier, but I think that might have been the first group I actually got back there.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, it was a low contact trip, so we had.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Hiking time and more time to see extra sites.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that Yehuda taught that I had not been aware of is when they did the archaeology at that site there at Tel Dan, on one side of the altar, there was only the bones of one half of the sacrifice, like one half of the cows, the goats, the sheep, only the right side. On the left side, there was only the other side of bones, like they were that. There was no mixture, only right side over here, only left side over there. Which. What's amazing about that is it tells you they were holding very stringently to some sense of the Levitical code. Like when you offer certain sacrifices as sin offerings, one half of it goes to God, one half of it is burnt up, one half of it is, and the other half goes to the priests and to the Levites. So you have archaeological evidence that they are following to the letter some of these sacrificial codes and systems, which I just. Again, I loved that little tidbit, but I also found it haunting because here are these people that are so bad, like, they're absolutely convinced we're offering biblical sacrifices. We are doing this God's way. We are people of the text. We are, and yet seem to be completely, completely unaware. Completely unaware. I have down here. God doesn't remember the self deceptions. He remembers the wickedness. God doesn't see all the stuff that you've convinced yourself he's looking at. God sees the stuff he wants to look at. And that idea of forgetting our maker seems to be an incredibly haunting line there. But, Reid, what do you. What do you see in this?

[Reed Dent]

Well, that they forget their maker. At the end of this chapter, when it begins to me, they cry out, we know you, O God of Israel. That is a powerful enough juxtaposition. I think we could just kind of just sit with that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And, I mean, nobody ever, I don't think, came out and said, I am participating in idolatry.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

You know, we, we all. That's, that's the whole trick of it is this other thing has become like so ultimate that we don't think, we. We don't think we're worshiping that instead of God. We just see it. We just see it as God, you know, and we think we are worshiping God. Yeah. But we've got the wrong thing, you know, up there, front and center.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And I don't know, I just, I think what's the, what's the kind of counterweight, what's the antidote to this potential deception that leads to this kind of wickedness? And I've quoted this on the podcast before. I should really find out. I heard Richard Rohr say it on a podcast some years ago, and the line just really was like a gut punch to me. And so I'll just say it again because I think it kind of is the antidote. He said, any people that has lost the capacity for self criticism will become idolatrous. And I think we have to, as a community be able to say, okay, how is this us? How are these people that are being addressed here in Hosea, chapter eight? How are they us? And we need people of. We can't get into the echo chambers. You know, we've got to have people of different, different parts of whatever spectrum it is who can come and have conversation together and, and we correct one another and somehow where all. It's all these counterbalancing weights that are hopefully homing us in on and getting us toward real faithfulness and true worship. But I think it requires those kinds of a certain openness to how. How might I have been wrong? Like, how might I be worshiping the wrong thing? Who can help me understand this? And maybe it's somebody that, you know, that I don't normally, like, see as being on the same page with me or, or something like that. So, yeah, I think just that kind of openness, communal reflection is important, especially in times like these when. And what's ironic is that these are the times where we most tend to polarize and divide and push, Push. The people who I need to help me recognize my idolatry, I push them away.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things I wrestle with is, are we. Is it even possible? And I think the answer is yes. But there is a part of me is like, is it even possible to hear this? Like, if they would have, if the people in Hosea, if the nation of Israel heard the voice of Hosea, if Somebody was brave enough to say it. And here is Hosea, he's saying it. If they heard the message, did anybody have the ability, the guts, the wherewithal, the presence to truly hear that word, hear the message, look at it, consider it, truly change their. I want to. I want to believe the answer. That had to be yes. Maybe not in whole. Obviously we know the story of history, but maybe in part, I don't know, but I asked that question because I hope the answer is yes. It's possible for us, like, if we were to put ourselves here, like we've been hinting this whole episode, there's plenty of stuff and Hosea 8 that should provide plenty of that self criticism that Rohr speaks about. Plenty of stuff for us to look at and go, could this be me? And I hope that we have the ability to truly look at it and go, yeah, yeah, maybe. Because I know it will be easy to hear all this and think about the others.

[Reed Dent]

Right? Exactly.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, yeah, that's what they're doing.

[Reed Dent]

I've got a family member at Thanksgiving who needs to hear this.

[Brent Billings]

Exactly. It's easy to see it in them. And that doesn't mean that's not true. The challenge is whether or not we see it in us. And that kind of goes back to last week's episode. We might be the internal, the external, the party A, the party B, the whatever. And yeah, of course, you might be totally accurate about your. Your critique or condemnation of them. The more powerful thing is whether or not you're able to see this in any of our own position and will we do that? Work together? And hopefully they'll, they'll do their own work. But can we do that? Work together as a people, individually, corporately, inside, outside? Can. Can we hear this? Are we able to hear this? Or are we truly too blinded? Are we too convinced? Have we. Have we forgotten our maker? Have we convinced ourselves we're offering biblical sacrifices? We are doing this exactly the right way and conveniently ignoring all the ways. This is absolutely not according to what God asks us to do. So, a convicting conversation. Brent Billings.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes. In the shadow of whatever may have come across in actuality at your Thanksgiving dinner table.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

And so perhaps some reflection that we can do some self criticism. And maybe we need to make some apologies over the Christmas dinner table for how we approach things or whatever.

[Brent Billings]

Ooh. Chart a new way forward.

[Marty Solomon]

Ooh, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Ooh. We might be getting ahead of ourselves in the Hosea material there, Brent, but I think that might be coming around the corner on the Ooh.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, I don't know.

[Reed Dent]

You mean something. Something hopeful.

[Brent Billings]

Something hopeful.

[Reed Dent]

Something coming.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Something repentance. Bringing blessings. I don't know. Maybe there's a way forward. Maybe there's a potential tomorrow that's. Maybe there's a Christmas dinner. Ah, I love that. Brent Billings. It's good. It's good stuff.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, all we're going to get before Christmas is consequences.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

But, yes, there's never a bad time to do this reflection. Never a bad time to try to heal relationships and move forward. So, you know, we do that when the Lord prepares the soil of all the people involved. So, anyway, that does it for this episode. We'll leave you to those wrestlings. For now, you can find the show notes in your podcast app [e-mail] check out those photos from Tell Dan. Pretty interesting reconstruction there. And gosh, I hope. I hope we have a chance to go back there at some point, but for now, not very possible. So. So my photos will have to suffice.

[Brent Billings]

Not anytime soon.

[Marty Solomon]

Thanks for taking me there, Marty.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. We'll get. We'll hopefully get back there someday.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. But, yeah, everything that we do here is supported by listeners like you. So thank you for that. If you want to join our work, you can do that on bam. On a safestlook dot com. But thanks for joining us on the Bamboo podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Reed Dent]

Mahomes for president. That's my platform.

[Brent Billings]

He's probably better at that than he is at quarterback right now.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, okay. So he would become the greatest president in the world as well as the greatest, like, quarterback in the world. The even greaterest president. That's fine.

[Brent Billings]

Good.

[Marty Solomon]

Pote.

[Reed Dent]

G. Pote G. Poat.

[Brent Billings]

Wow.

[Marty Solomon]

G. Potus. We're getting there. We're working there.

[Reed Dent]

We got it. We got it.

[Brent Billings]

Golden Calf indeed.

[Reed Dent]

What do you got? The Browns this weekend?

[Brent Billings]

We do.

[Reed Dent]

I really. I really meant what I said in that polo. Like, I think you guys will beat them, like, 42 to 6.

[Brent Billings]

Well, they're lacking Amari Cooper. I think they get Nick Chubb back this week. So I'm sure we'll stop the run.

[Reed Dent]

You'll be fine.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Reed Dent]

Also, can we just talk about, like, how this season for the Chiefs, really, other record aside, like, it just feels like an exact repeat of last season. Like last season. All around the trade deadline, I was. Because we had a million dropped passes, and I was like, we're gonna get somebody. Right? And then, you know, who? We got McColl, Hardman back from the Jets. Here's. Here's. Here's what I saw pop up Marty in the news. All these clickbait headlines were like, chief set to regain star wide receiver after Bill's surprise move with the Browns. And it's like the Bills have released wide receiver Markus Valdez scantling, and they're like, maybe the Chiefs could get him back. And I think, okay, so let's. Let's. Let's see.

[Marty Solomon]

We.

[Reed Dent]

We will have. We did it with McColl, Hardman. We did it with Juju, Smith, Schuster. We did it with Kareem Hunt. Maybe we'll do it with MVs, and we'll literally just get back everybody that we sent away.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And try to. It's just. It's so ridiculous. It also makes me a little mad that the Bills got Amari Cooper, because I don't think Amari Cooper is, like, the greatest wide receiver or anything. I just think the Bills were already playing pretty well for their roster, and any improvement makes them scarier. So.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, it's true.

[Reed Dent]

Also, you know, Josh Allen hasn't thrown an interception this season.

[Brent Billings]

I saw that the other day. I didn't want to say anything because I knew how that crazy feels about Mr. Allen.

[Reed Dent]

No. Yeah. But you got to respect it.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yep. Yep.

[Reed Dent]

Meanwhile, Mahomes is just out here throwing pics every week.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, totally. I know. I mean, I haven't wanted to say anything, but I did, and I do want to say something, and I did say something, so.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, no, say something. I mean, and, you know, it's not like, I feel like last season, a lot of the picks you could blame on the receivers, and for the most part, like, there's a few this season, but also, he's had a number probably. He's probably had three or maybe four picks that were just completely on him and like a. Just a bad job. A certified trademark bad job.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Don't put this on the pod, Brent. I can't let Patty know that I am criticizing his work if he ever happens to be a listener someday.

[Brent Billings]

You know, who only has two interceptions? You know, how has.

[Reed Dent]

Who has third fewest only two interceptions?

[Brent Billings]

Who are.

[Reed Dent]

Who? Joe Burrow.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, Joe Burrow.

[Reed Dent]

So he has the same number of interceptions as wins. That's awesome. Congratulations. Joe Burrow.

[Brent Billings]

That was a good one. And that was a zinger.

[Reed Dent]

Him and Daniel Jones. Two wins a piece.

[Brent Billings]

Goodness gracious. It's so true.

[Reed Dent]

You guys got to turn it around. You can.

[Brent Billings]

It's. It's nice having some of our defensive players back. We don't look great, but we look better when they're that. When they're there. All right.

[Reed Dent]

All right.

[Brent Billings]

Let's see here. I should stop recording.