428: Hosea — Consequences

Summary

The BEMA Podcast Summary

Episode 428: Hosea — Consequences
Release Date: December 12, 2024
Host/Author: BEMA Discipleship
Transcript Duration Covered: 00:00 – 45:19

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Introduction

In Episode 428 of The BEMA Podcast, hosts Marty Solomon and Brent Billings delve into Hosea Chapter 9, exploring the severe consequences of Israel's rebellion against God. The discussion navigates through the prophetic messages, historical contexts, and political undertones embedded within the scripture, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Hosea's warnings and their relevance today.

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Understanding Hosea 9: A Call to Repentance and Its Repercussions

Marty opens the conversation by addressing the repetitive nature of Hosea’s messages, likening them to a "prophetic broken record" urging Israel to repent (00:17). He emphasizes the challenge of maintaining engagement when the prophetic calls seem monotonous but appreciates the fresh perspectives brought by co-hosts, such as Brent.

Notable Quote:
“We don't have anybody, it's just you and me today. So I kind of feel like I always feel a little self-conscious in the prophets, a little bit of that broken record.” — Marty Solomon [00:17]

Brent echoes this sentiment, acknowledging gaps in his study and expressing anticipation for uncovering deeper insights as they explore the text further (01:28).

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Political Undertones in Hosea 9

The hosts transition into discussing the political aspects of Hosea 9, highlighting how the scripture addresses national behavior rather than individual actions. Marty points out that their commentary often touches on political themes without leaning partisan, reflecting Hosea’s broader critique of national allegiance and idolatry (05:40).

Notable Quote:
“We have talked about. We've given political commentary, not partisan commentary. Like, we haven't picked a side of our politics.” — Marty Solomon [06:41]

Brent concurs, noting the importance of understanding the collective responsibility and the nation's role in failing to uphold God's commandments (12:19).

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Historical Context and Prophetic Comparisons

Marty draws parallels between Hosea and other prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah, noting recurring themes and historical references such as Gibeah. This comparison underscores the depth of corruption and the cyclical nature of prophetic warnings (16:34).

Notable Quote:
“And as Hosea continues, I keep hearing the prophet Isaiah... It’s so fitting that Hosea is echoing these earlier prophetic voices.” — Marty Solomon [15:25]

Brent further explores these connections, suggesting that Hosea’s messages are part of a larger prophetic dialogue addressing national sin and repentance (22:21).

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Thematic Elements: Idolatry, Corruption, and Judgment

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the themes of idolatry and corruption within Hosea 9. The discussion highlights how Hosea condemns Israel’s shift towards idol worship, utilizing vivid metaphors like "winepresses will not feed the people" to illustrate the futility of their actions without genuine repentance (05:40).

Notable Quote:
“Threshing floors and winepresses will not feed the people. The new wine will fail them.” — Brent Billings [05:40]

Marty expands on this by comparing Israel’s behavior to bewitching idols and the inevitable downfall that follows, reinforcing the necessity of true repentance (08:10).

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Metaphors and Illustrations: Birds and Water Hyacinths

The conversation delves into the rich use of metaphors in Hosea 9, particularly the recurring bird imagery. Marty notes Hosea's consistent references to birds as symbols of Israel's fleeting glory and impending destruction (21:19).

Notable Quote:
“Hosea keeps using bird language. I don't know if he was a birdwatcher, but the imagery is pervasive throughout the chapters we’ve examined.” — Marty Solomon [21:19]

Additionally, Marty shares an illustrative metaphor from Lovett’s 1994 Minister's Manual about water hyacinths, highlighting how small sins can spread uncontrollably, much like invasive plants clogging waterways. This serves to emphasize the destructive potential of unchecked idolatry and sin (41:11).

Notable Quote:
“He used this illustration of these trees that got planted and then all of a sudden you have to just move them out and it becomes this unmanageable, unsustainable.” — Marty Solomon [43:55]

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Comparative Analysis with Jeremiah 20:7-18

Marty and Brent compare Hosea's lamentations to those found in Jeremiah 20:7-18, particularly focusing on the prophet Jeremiah's desperate pleas and feelings of betrayal by God. This comparison underscores the intense emotional and spiritual turmoil experienced by prophets facing national sin (30:55).

Notable Quote:
“Jeremiah is not happy with the Lord. We'll put it that way.” — Brent Billings [31:00]

Brent recounts Jeremiah’s cries of frustration and helplessness, paralleling Hosea’s own expressions of despair and condemnation (34:12).

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Concluding Insights: The Absence of Hope in Hosea 9

As the discussion wraps up, Marty laments the lack of hopeful resolutions in Hosea 9, contrasting it with Hosea’s earlier calls for repentance. The stern warnings and declarations of impending judgment within the chapter leave listeners with a sobering understanding of the consequences of national unfaithfulness (40:51).

Notable Quote:
“He's got anger. He's got a call for what we would call Dean... He wants justice that actually is going to get the job done.” — Marty Solomon [39:48]

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Final Thoughts and Reflections

In their final moments, Marty and Brent reflect on the intensity of prophetic messages and the emotional weight they carry. Marty shares personal reflections on grappling with themes of despair and the importance of heeding prophetic warnings to avoid spiritual and societal downfall.

Notable Quote:
“When you live in this space, there’s so much grief, there’s so much wickedness... we know what it’s like to cry out and shout out, like, I don’t even want to be here.” — Marty Solomon [32:50]

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Key Takeaways

• Hosea’s Repetition: The repetitive calls to repentance in Hosea 9 serve to emphasize the urgency and consistency of God's message to Israel.
• Political Allegory: Hosea 9 is interpreted not just as a religious warning but also as a political commentary on national integrity and allegiance.
• Historical Parallels: Comparisons with other prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah highlight recurring themes of sin, judgment, and divine frustration.
• Metaphorical Language: Bird imagery and metaphors like water hyacinths illustrate the pervasive and uncontrollable nature of sin and idolatry.
• Emotional Weight: The episode underscores the deep emotional and spiritual struggles faced by prophets and believers alike in confronting national and personal sin.

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For those who haven't listened to this episode, it provides a profound exploration of Hosea 9, blending historical context, theological insights, and contemporary applications to shed light on the enduring relevance of prophetic warnings.

Transcript

[Brent Billings]

Foreign. This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are discussing Hosea 9 and the consequences of participating in imperial rebellion against the Lord.

[Marty Solomon]

I have been enjoying throughout this series getting our co hosts in here, Brent, to talk about these things because this whole section of Hosea, there's like seven chapters here, maybe a little bit more. I think it's seven chapters where it just feels like that prophetic broken record, same thing. Hey, you guys should repent. Hey, you should stop being a knucklehead. God's angry. Stop doing that. God's going to destroy you. Like, that's the message, like. And so I enjoy getting other people in here because I get a. They bring a little bit new, fresh perspective and enable us to talk about the broken record. And we don't have anybody, it's just you and me today. So I kind of feel like I always feel a little self conscious in the prophets, a little bit of that broken record. It might even be a. I say this all the time. It might even be a shorter episode today. But fear not, if that ends up being the case, which would be a first. We've already heard from Josh Bossay, he's going to join us on the next episode and he's already found some stuff. So if we know anything about Josh, we'll have plenty of makeup time next episode and that'll be worth it.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, goodness. Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Yeah, it's funny, like I was glancing over your notes and realizing that one of the things that comes up in this passage is something that I've sort like I haven't been studying that aspect of it, but I've been like looking at this other biblical story where the same thing comes up and I was like, sure, I wonder if there's anything. So I don't know. As we read through this, something may come to the surface that I don't even realize is there. But yeah, we'll find out.

[Marty Solomon]

It's often how it works. We'll have to see. Well, before we jump into some text, we'll just say, I'd just like to give us a reminder, kind of like in the same spirit we used to review back in the first five sessions that was really big. We used to review. And when I find myself in a section where it kind of feels like a broken record, instead of getting lost, I like to review some of the touch points we've carried with us so that it's like, okay, okay, settle in, stay focused. Like, this prophet won't Last forever. Hosea is not a. It's not like Isaiah, it's not 66 chapters long. Like something will change here. But hang on to what we've been looking at. And apparently the prophet wants us to keep thinking about this. So let's keep thinking about this. And I know this hasn't been easy, and it's been hard. It would be a whole lot easier if we would just turn Hosea outward and point it at all of our enemies, all of our political enemies, and all the other people who aren't like us. But the invitation of walking through a prophet, the prophet is not written to us. We know that. Like we know what it means to El. First episode of the series, leading us through reminding ourself of the historical context, reminding ourselves to be aware of the assumptions and all those things we bring with us into this. But the application of the exegesis, we're not just studying this in the abstract. The application of the exegesis needs to be somehow for our own consideration, that we would be changed. So I love. Just to remind ourselves where we've been. We've been talking about true repentance. Like, what does true repentance look like? We talked two episodes ago. So three episodes ago was. Was about true repentance. Two episodes ago, fruit. In keeping with that repentance, like, what does it look like when you do or when you don't? In that case, when you don't truly repent, what is the fruit of repentance? What is the fruit of not repenting? And then the last episode, how empty is empty? If it doesn't have God in it, it's going to be empty and fruitless. There will be no. We talk about fruit of repentance. If we don't go through repentance, we will have no fruit, at least on a good level. We might have some bad fruit. We might have some of that beushim we looked at in session two. But it's just going to be an exercise in futility. Like grow all the grapes you want. If you don't do the cultivating work of repentance, if you don't work on the soil, if you don't prune your vines, if you don' do the stuff that hurts, if you don't go through the actual process that I'm kind of begging us to remember to go through, you can bear all the fruit you want. It's just going to be. Be. It's just going to be stunted grapes. It's going to be good for nothing. It will be empty. It'll just be emptiness. So all that work, all that stuff you've been doing, thinking it would produce for you on a kingdom level, according to kingdom metrics, be an exercise in futility. So that's where we've been the last three episodes, considering true repentance. And I've got some bad news about Hosea 9. The story doesn't change a whole lot.

[Brent Billings]

Well, let's hear that for ourselves. Marty, let's read it.

[Marty Solomon]

I love it. Give me four verses.

[Brent Billings]

Do not rejoice, Israel. Do not be jubilant like the other nations, for you have been unfaithful to your God. You love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor. Threshing floors and winepresses will not feed the people. The new wine will fail them. They will not remain in the Lord's land. Ephraim will return to Egypt and eat unclean food in Assyria. They will not pour out wine offerings to the Lord, nor will their sacrifices please him. Such sacrifices will be to them like the bread of mourners. All who eat them will be unclean. This food will be for themselves. It will not come into the temple of the Lord.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, I have four little notes I've written down here from these four verses. The call to not rejoice, do not rejoice. The accusation, the observation that you have not been faithful, you have been unfaithful. Do not rejoice, you have been unfaithful. This idea that the wine and the threshing floor will fail you. Everything that you're kind of just talking about. A moment ago, I didn't even think about it, but that doing all that work, tending that vineyard, doing all that stuff like that, all that work's going to fail you. What you think is good, what you think is great, what you think you're here to celebrate is actually going to make you unclean, Unclean in the eyes of God, unclean in the atmosphere of worship. And in this series, Brent, we've been far more political. We have talked about. We've given political commentary, not partisan commentary. Like, we haven't picked a side of our politics.

[Brent Billings]

Have not and will not and will not.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. And that's intentional, but also, like, we're usually not. We don't lean into the directly political conversation. And yet the series, I kind of knew we were kind of headed that way when we had prepped for it. The notes, Hosea, everything I had looked at and studied, like, I'm not necessarily. It didn't surprise me. But I think I was surprised at just like how direct we've really been in our commentary. Again, not partisan, but, but political. And first of all, has that surprised you in this series at all? Like, have you like, listened to Reid or I or whoever, and you're like, oh, this is surprising to me.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I would not have expected it.

[Marty Solomon]

We usually try to make sure we're, we're not leveraging using the Bible to do something else for our ideologies. And hopefully we've stayed true to that.

[Brent Billings]

Well, and just the nature of our recording schedule. Sure, we've had to make disclaimers like, hey, we realize when this is coming out, but we didn't plan this to come out at this particular time. So don't read into the statements that we're saying as if it's something about a particular thing that has just happened. It's not that.

[Marty Solomon]

Which is a perfect segue. Let me just point that out. We're recording this still before the election. It is October 23rd. We usually don't do this, but as we record this, it's October 23rd, so we still don't know what's happened since October 23rd. By the time you hear this, somebody has won an election. I would assume we don't know who it is.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, let's be careful to make too many assumptions.

[Marty Solomon]

Who knows in the world we live in? But we don't know. As we record this, we don't know. So our comments don't come with any knowledge of where this is falling on one side of an election cycle or another. And yet I would say this. I don't know which side you fell on. If you happen to fall on the quote unquote winner side, if you find yourself. And I know lots of people are like, I don't take sides. Yeah, okay, great, awesome. But for those that, that probably are on the side of like, who my person won, my ideology, my party, my. I hear these words of Jose, and again, I don't know who, I don't know which side it is, but let. Whoever it is, let us be very careful, like, let us hear these words. Do not rejoice, do not think that that is the same thing as the kingdom of God. And that's not to say that we're in, we're necessarily in sin, but Hosea is asking us to consider our allegiances this whole journey, asking us to consider what we've allied with, what we've given ourselves to, whether or not we're reaping the whirlwind, whether or not. So. So whoever. Whoever we are, do not rejoice you've been unfaithful. Maybe I don't. I'm not pointing my finger at listeners. I don't know. But let us be vigilant to make sure that these words aren't true of us. The wine and the threshing floor, all that work you did, all the ideology we posted on Facebook about, all the positions we took, all the memes, all the things, all the angry conversations that we had around a Thanksgiving table, all the debates we had in college classrooms, all the. The wine and the threshing floor will fail you. What you think is good will make you unclean. Let us be. Let us be very, very careful. No matter who we are, no matter how things went, let us be very, very careful. If we find ourselves on the side of thinking, like, oh, it's time to rejoice, like, the kingdom of God is coming, like, this is. Be very, very careful. We don't mistake the kingdom of God for something it's not. Or maybe I said that in the reverse, but I think you get what I'm trying to say, and this is why it's really important. Like, sometimes, Brent, in our effort to not be partisan, we end up not being political at all, which is impossible to do if we're truly listening to the Word. Because the Bible, the conversation of the scriptures, the text, is an unbelievably political document. Like the way we order ourselves, the way that. I'm not talking about American partisan politics, I'm talking about it has political ramifications. So it's always this weird dance to try to not be partisan in our own context, but to still be honest about a very politically relevant conversation that happens in the Scriptures in front of us. So, yeah, I think there's. And maybe we're on the other side and we feel like everything's falling apart and whatever, but if we're on that side of, like, let's do some fist pumps and some victory laps, let us be really, really careful what you think is good. They will not pour out wine offerings to the Lord, nor will their sacrifices please him. Such sacrifices will be to them like the bread of mourners. All who eat them will be unclean. The food will be for themselves. It will not come into the temple of the Lord. That verse four right there, like, remember, if this is done without God, no matter how right the ideology may be, on whatever level, if it's been done without God, it's as empty as empty. It's as empty as empty can be in this case, unclean in terms of making it into God's presence. So those are my thoughts on just the opening verses. So maybe not a whole lot as far as length of discussion, but maybe some depth and profundity of discussion. But I don't know. Give us some more. Give us some more text, Brent.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I was just thinking real quick. The idea of politics being this, like from the Greek word meaning city.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes. Polis.

[Brent Billings]

The text in many cases and especially in the prophets, is very rarely talking about individuals. Like, this is all nation level stuff.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

And obviously it's not. These people are not a monolith. There's all sorts of opinions surely tied up in all of these things. And yet the nation as a whole is making these decisions that Hosea is speaking against calling them to do something as a nation. Like, is every single individual Israelite engaging in prostitution on the threshing floor?

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, great point.

[Brent Billings]

Probably not.

[Marty Solomon]

Great point. Sure. Right. Yeah, sure.

[Brent Billings]

And yet that is the charge against their nation. And that's why this is political.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. It's how we order ourselves. It's how we walk together. It's how we hold each other accountable. It's how we absolutely. That corporate, more Eastern us versus the Western individualistic eye. Absolutely. That's a great, great point.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, give us a little, a little bit more. In Hosea 9, what will you do.

[Brent Billings]

On the day of your appointed festivals? On the feast days of the Lord, even if they escape from destruction, Egypt will gather them and Memphis will bury them. Their treasures of silver will be taken over by briars and thorns will overrun their tents. The days of punishment are coming. The days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this, because your sins are so many and your hostility so great. The prophet is considered a fool, the inspired person, a maniac. The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim. Yet snares await him on all his paths and hostility in the house of his God. They have sunk deep into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah, God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. So we have this idea and you know, when I hear this section, you just read. One of the voices I keep hearing in this case is the prophet Isaiah. I think the reason when we opened this episode and I started talking about vineyard is you have all that wine talk in the last section that you read. Let me see, what did it say? Do not rejoice, not be jubilant. Threshing floors and wine presses Threshing floors and winepresses, they will not pour out wine offerings. And when I hear the section you just read, Brent, I keep hearing Isaiah, like some of Isaiah 1. As soon as you said, what will you do on the day of your appointed festivals? I think of Isaiah 1 saying, all your festivals, your parties, your celebrations, your new moons that make me want to vomit. God says in Isaiah 1, your sacrifices, your diligence, your worship. And then keeps going. And I hear them talks about briars, their treasures of silver will be taken over by briars. I think of Isaiah 5, and I think all this imagery, the wine, the briars, the appointed festivals, part of what it gave me. Sorry, I just slipped into Gen Z speak there. It's giving me Isaiah.

[Brent Billings]

Wow, nice.

[Marty Solomon]

Really? I'm relevant for all the kids these days.

[Brent Billings]

Hey, when it's flowing out of you, naturally, you know, you got it.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, man. But that's what I'm hearing. As I hear this I'm hearing. And so I'm thinking. And I've often wondered how much the prophets kind of talk to each other. Part of what I'm learning right now in class is the way the prophets interact with each other, how they often feel. They'll often be described as sharing the same material, coming from the same perspective, the same point in history, the same place when they're being written, which is why you hear so much overlap. And I just wonder about that. Maybe it's how I'm being taught right now to let my brain work, but those are some of the things that I'm hearing. I think of Gibeah. I think it was Josh, whatever it was two, three episodes ago, whenever he was on, we started diving into the mentions of these places. Remember, Gibeah was where the Benjaminites, they go to war against the Benjaminites because of the Levite and his concubine, and they abuse and mistreat them. Just like the story of. What, Brent, what was that story reminiscent of? Almost a direct echo of.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, like Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. Like, it's like an exact replay of that story. Like these visitors coming in, they want to misuse and abuse them. That's what ends up happening, right like that. That's the desecration they have sunk deep into. Into corruption, as in the days of Gibeah. And we made all the. All the incredible connections. Here you have a priest and his. Or a Levite. Excuse me, and this woman where violence is done to her. Fitting of all these, like, all the references. We looked at a Couple chapters ago, were all these references of men in there and their wives, or in this case, a concubine, and violence being done against them and the corruption of the people. And so. And so here you have a callback from Hosea to that same. They have sunk deep into the corruption as in the days of. Them are. Them are ugly words like them are fighting words. Them are. That's an accusation. That's like your darkest days of history. God will remember their wickedness and punish them for their sins. So again, we have that same reference we looked at with Josh kind of following us through Hosea here into the chapters that follow. I wouldn't be surprised if Hosea is not done with that yet, but we'll have to see. Give us a couple more. Give us a few more verses.

[Brent Billings]

Brent When I found Israel, it was like finding grapes in the desert. When I saw your ancestors, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree. But when they came to BAAL Peor, they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol and became as vile as the thing they loved. Ephraim's glory will fly away like a bird. No birth, no pregnancy, no conception, even if they rare children, I will bereave them of every one. Woe to them when I turn away from them. I have seen Ephraim, like Tyre planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children to the slayer.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, there's some strong language in those few verses, not just petty poetic prophecy, but some heavy condemnation and some words of woe. There starts off, though, with God, like fondly remembering their ancestors. Your ancestors were like grapes in the desert. Like it was this rare thing, was this beautiful find again, made me think of Isaiah 5. Made me think of the men of Judah are my vineyard, is what God said. So it's not the first time he's referenced as people, as a vineyard, as grapes. Your ancestors were like grapes in the desert. And then references another one of those places that we looked at with Josh a few episodes ago. BAAL Peor, story of Balaam, story of the Moabite women, BAAL Peor as the God of the Moabites, the Moabite women who seduced Israel and led them into idolatry and the displeasure, the wrath of God. So another good use of this callback, of this infidelity theme in connection with violence, in connection with, we might say, political idolatry. Just very apropos clever callbacks there. Ephraim's glory will fly away like a bird. I find it. I wish I Could figure out what Jose, like we always talk, Brent, in session two about every prophet having some kind of image. I think you pointed that out earlier in the series and obviously we called the image of Hosea prostitute, which maybe we didn't. We'd even go back and, and change if we did things over. But if there was a secondary image in Hosea, it would be these birds. Like Hosea keeps using bird language. I don't know if he was a birdwatcher. I don't know if there's something. Contextually, we talked about Tabor. Mount Tabor was a place where they used to snare birds. But from like Hosea 4 on through, I think I've seen catching birds, snaring birds, bird hunting imagery in almost every chapter we've looked at. And here it shows up again. Ephraim's glory will fly. This time it's flying away like a bird versus the snaring language, which has been used all throughout. But lots of bird stuff. Do you see what I'm talking about there with the bird thing?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I'm just. I'm doing an English search here. Hosea 2, the birds in the sky. Yeah, that was making a covenant. But yeah. Hosea 4, birds in the sky are swept away. Hosea 7, pull them down like the birds in the sky.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

Throw a net over them is how the net translates that one.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay. Yep.

[Brent Billings]

And then fly away like a bird. And then Hosea 11, they will return in fear and trembling like birds from Egypt.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And some of those make total sense. And then some of those are interesting return like birds. Unless it's just the method of their return. Like, when do frightened birds return from Egypt? That's interesting. I don't know.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Who knows? But I just keep noticing the bird thing. Can't wait for somebody on Slack, some bird specialist, to be like, here's what you don't know. I've been waiting for this moment. There's a good friend of ours, a B listener, that's been on now, both the Israel and the Turkey trip. And his name is Hunter. And he's like a bug. Like he's a. He's like a doctorate professor bug specialist. And nothing has added more color to my trips than somebody who is a bug expert. It's one of my greatest joys. And so I just imagine somewhere out there as a bird expert, a bird Bama listener who has been like, I have been waiting for this moment. This is my moment to shine. And they're going to send me the most glorious email about Hosea. Snaring birds.

[Brent Billings]

I've been told. Marty. I've heard and I've seen many references to this idea that bird watching is something that happens to every man at some point in his life.

[Marty Solomon]

It's so true. And I saw a reference the other day, boy, are we getting sidetracked. But we have the time. Today I saw a reference like, that's like, what this. What's happening? Like, since COVID Like, apparently there was an explosion of bird watching that happened. Did you know about this? I don't know.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I've heard that, too.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay. Who knew? Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, it's just like, I don't know. I mean, I try to justify myself.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Because I'm like, oh, well, my favorite bird is this. You have a favorite bird. It's like, dude, you're farther along than that spectrum than you think you are. It's like. No, no, it's just. It's just because I, you know, went on these walks and just the bird that happens to be there and I don't. Yeah, it happens to everybody, apparently. So my point in saying that is we might have a lot more bird people who are.

[Marty Solomon]

That is so true. I tell you, when I moved over here to Cincinnati, one of the things that got me was the different birds that I noticed. I had these three cardinals and I had never. I'm like, I'd probably seen a cardinal before, but I had never, like, seen a cardinal. Like, seen. Seen a cardinal, like, lived where a cardinal's in my yard every single day. And we, like, watch the male and the female and then. And then. And then the. And then the baby bird, like, grow like, it's crazy. So, yeah, I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

[Brent Billings]

The red is so vibrant, right?

[Marty Solomon]

So vibrant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the males and the females and I have, like, a bird watching book that somebody gave me that sat on my shelf, like the. The intro shelf to my house where, you know, all those books that you're never gonna read, but maybe somebody else will want to flip through if they're just bored and sitting in the front of your house. Only I pulled it out and was like, oh, look. And then I was like, telling everybody, and my kids were like, dead. Nobody cares about what kind of a cardinal this is. But I did. I digress. Literally tire, as mentioned. Tyre. I mean, the thing that tires known all throughout the scripture is just their arrogance is the. It's kind of like the. That's the defining characteristic in most all their mentions. I have seen Ephraim like Tyre planted in a pleasant. A pleasant place. And yet they receive so much condemnation in that They're. They're arrogance, the pride of Tyre. Tyre was on. If anybody finds a map. Tire was on the. On the sea, Mediterranean Sea, north, kind of North Phoenicia. North of Phoenicia. That's Tire. And Tire was one of those things that people seemed to. Boy, they looked real good on the outside. They knew that they looked really good on the outside. So again, a fitting reference. Ephraim, like Tyre, planted in a pleasant place. But Ephraim will bring out their children. To the Slayer. You look good on the outside, but this is not going to end well. If they bear children, they will lose them. Which leads to the next verse. Give me the next verse, Brent. This isn't going to be necessarily fun to talk about, but give me the next one.

[Brent Billings]

Give them, Lord, what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, that's a verse. It's a hard verse. It's hard verse to hear in my niv. I know you're reading. I'm assuming you're reading another Niv, Brent. It gives quotations, which makes sense based on the voice that we're reading in the Hebrew grammar. But the quotations end like, 14 is like a. It's like God is speaking. But then at verse 14, Hosea almost can't contain himself. And he just kind of like. There's this lament, there's this hyperbolic prophetic cry, this uttering that comes out. Do you see that in your own. Like I was looking at Alter. I want to see if Alter had anything interesting about verse 14. And nothing. Just has nothing for me. So. Thanks, Alter. But he also doesn't utilize quotations, so there's no quotes in or out. I think the grammar clearly does what the NIV is trying to portray here. Do you see that in the niv? Are you looking at the same thing I'm looking at?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I see that and I'm looking at the net and they're not using any quotations at all. But yeah, the grammar is pretty clear. Like verse. Yeah, verse eight. The prophet, along with my God, is the watchman over Ephraim. And then verse 10, when I found Israel, it was like finding. So, you know, Hosea is not like taking credit for finding Israel.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep.

[Brent Billings]

But then verse 14. Give them, Lord.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. So the NIV places.

[Brent Billings]

What is the motivation? Oh, yeah, verse 15. Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal. I hated Them there.

[Marty Solomon]

Yep. So, yeah. Verses 10 through 13 in the NIV are in quotes. In the voice of God, in the voice of the Lord. Then the prophet is verse 14. Then the Lord's going to pick back up in 15 for a little bit, and I'll circle back around here in a moment to see what happens at the end of the chapter. But you have Hosea breaking in. I kept hearing. I remember when we were doing Isaiah, there's an episode there where it might have been. Reid and I, you might want to link in the show notes. We talked about Abraham, Joshua, Heschel and his work in the prophets and that. We talked about the pathos. The pathos. We discovered how to say it. And I've already forgotten. Pathos.

[Brent Billings]

I think it was pathos. Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I think it was. That was a fun.

[Brent Billings]

I did that research. Path, yeah. Pathos, yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Pathos, yes. So. So I. I see this as this wonderful example. Not in its content, not wonderful in its content, but a really clear. Like the. The prophet is all caught up in the pathos of. He has this intimate connection with God. He's experiencing the hurt, the heartache, the frustration, the anger. And out of this pathos, he like, kind of like alongside of God, in this prophetic, poetic rant, he just lets loose like his own. His own thing. Give them, Lord, what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts. He just got done saying. The one thing that Alter does say is that verse 14 is a callback to verse 12. Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of everyone. Woe to them when I turn away from them. That's what seems to get Hosea's attention, not get his attention, as he's not paying attention. But that's what seems to, like, bring forth this almost what feels like to me in the language, this spontaneous. And you know what it made me think of? Well, first of all, Brent, do you have any thoughts or comments on that?

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah, I would just add verse 11 to that. No birth, no pregnancy, no conception.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at that. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, a theme there. Yeah, look at that. Alter points that out. 11 and 12. I just should have read his whole note. Yeah. Okay, good work. Yeah. So you have verse 11 and 12. What it made me think of. And this is a random. And I didn't cue this up for you, but, Brent, can you find Jeremiah 20, verse 7 through 18? It made me think of this, of this kind of rant that Jeremiah has. And again, I keep hearing Isaiah and Hosea in this chapter and then the next couple chapters of Hosea, I start hearing Jeremiah really clearly. To me, I don't know if those things are. If I'm supposed to. I don't know if that's just me projecting, but I'm hearing all this overlap with other prophets, other major prophets that we would know. And I hear Jeremiah 20 when I hear this, no birth, no pregnancy, no conception, even if they rear children, I will bereave them of everyone. Hosea eventually erupts. What will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry in breasts? Is that just like a prayer of vengeance? Like, is he wanting God to just truly punish the. The people to the extent that we're talking about? Or is there. Is there a more prophetic, a more poetic, a more. I'm not trying to soften it by any stretch, but is there. Is there a more indirect reference potentially? Are they seeing or hearing something else? Give me this Passage from Jeremiah 20. This is Jeremiah speaking about himself like he is bereft. He's frustrated with his calling. Like God's put this calling on. That's why we call Jeremiah the weeping prophet. Like Jeremiah has this deeply frustrating, very hard to live with call on his life. And at different points he just kind of erupts with this lament like, I hate my job. And this is one of those sections of Jeremiah. So Give us Jeremiah 27:18.

[Brent Billings]

You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived. You overpowered me and prevailed. I am ridiculed.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm not even going to let you get you one verse in Brent before I interrupt you. You deceived me and I was deceived when I was taught this passage originally. And I'd have to go back and double check this because I did the word study a while ago. I would just have to see it for myself with a later version of Marty. The word there is seduced, which I find very interesting in the context of Hosea and the language and the BAAL Peor and the Gibeah and all of those references that we have. You seduced me, and I was seduced. Like the langu I was taught originally years and years ago. It's not just deception. There is a. It's typically used in a more sexual connotation. You seduced me, God, and I was seduced. But go ahead, start over and let's. Let's hear this. I'll try to.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I'll just say there's a gigantic net footnote on this.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, right.

[Brent Billings]

Apparently the. Yeah, they translate it coerced. But you, you get deceived, tricked, enticed. Enticed, seduced. As you're saying like this, it's apparently a tricky one to translate.

[Marty Solomon]

So Jeremiah is not happy with the Lord. We'll put it that way.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived. You overpowered me and prevailed. I am ridiculed all day long. Everyone mocks me. Whenever I speak. I cry out, proclaiming violence and destruction. So the word of the Lord has brought me insult and reproach all day long. But if I say I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name. His word is in my heart like a fire. A fire shut up in my bones. I'm weary of holding it in. Indeed I cannot. I hear many whispering terror on every side. Denounce him. Let's denounce him. All my friends are waiting for me to slip, saying, perhaps he will be deceived. Then we will prevail over him and take our revenge on him.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, so I'm going to pause right in the middle here, and just here's Jeremiah, totally frustrated. I've been deceived. I've been seduced. I've been enticed. You've overpowered me. And yet I can't run away from this. And yet if I say I'm done with this, if I try to run away, if I try to pull a Jonah, so to speak, if I try to. Like, I'm not going to do this job. His word. This is going to come back, I think, in another episode or two. His word becomes like a fire in my chest. I cannot. I am weary. A fire shut up in my bones. He says, Verse 9. I am weary of holding it in. Indeed, I cannot. So he can't get away from this role, and yet this role is so frustrating for him. But go ahead and keep going at verse 11, where you were.

[Brent Billings]

But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior. So my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced. Their dishonor will never be forgotten. Lord Almighty, you who examine the righteous and probe the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance on them. For to you I have committed my cause. Sing to the Lord. Give praise to the Lord. He rescues the life of the needy from the hands of the wicked. Cursed be the day I was born.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, here's what I want us. Here's what I want us to hear. What? Jeremiah's prayer. How it ends here. Go ahead. Brent, read that verse one more time.

[Brent Billings]

Cursed be the day I was born. May the day my mother bore me not be blessed. Cursed be the man who brought my father the news, who made him very glad, saying, a child is born to you, a son. May that man be like the towns the Lord overthrew without pity. May he hear wailing in the morning, a battle cry at noon. For he did not kill me in the womb with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever. Why did I ever come out of the womb to see trouble and sorrow and to end my days in shame.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, so you have that same kind of heavy language, this time told by the person himself. Like Jeremiah is actually saying, cursed be the day I was born. Like, using. Really, like, if we're honest here about what we're hearing in the language here, like, this is like, may the man who brought news, may he be essentially. Yeah, cursed be the man that brought this news, who essentially didn't abort me. Because this is such a horrible. And again, it's hyperbolic. It's grief, it's lament. It's all those things. When I hear Hosea use similar language, this is the passage I thought of saying. Like, when you live in this space, it's so. There's. There's so much grief. There's so much wickedness. There's so much that part of what you. Part of what erupts out of you, part of what shouts, like, I don't even want to be here. I wish I would. And I think all of us have had these moments. Not necessarily. And I know many of us have struggled with suicidal stuff. I deeply know how widespread that struggle is and how we have been touched by that. But even outside of that, outside of a suicidal context, like, we know what it's like to cry out and shout out, like, I don't even want to be here. I think of even my kids right now as they're growing in this weird adolescent. Like, I wish I would have never been born. How that grief can just erupt out of you. And that's what I connect with when I hear Hosea say these words. And he erupts. And he's like, yeah, basically. What did he say? What was the verse? The verse was, give them, Lord, what will you give them? Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry. Because how horrible is it? How horrible will it be when children are born into this context? Not literally. Don't hear me. Or I would argue Hosea say, literally, we're wishing for Children not to be born, but they're connecting the grief and the ugliness and the destruction and the trial to being born into that context. Not trying to resolve it, they're trying to speak to it and speak into it. So that's part of what I hear when I see verse 14. So I don't know if you have anything else there, but we can give us two more verses. God starts talking again in verse 15 and 16.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. I would just say that Hosea seems pretty bad, but then you read the graphic details of Jeremiah.

[Marty Solomon]

Sure. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. I think that's why Jeremiah came to mind. It's like, well, I've heard this before, maybe even worse. Yeah, absolutely.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Verse 15. Back in Hosea night, because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there because of their sinful deeds. I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them. All their leaders are rebellious. Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered. They yield no fruit, even if they bear children. I will slay their cherished offspring.

[Marty Solomon]

Right. And that's why it's going to be so bad. If offspring are realized in this world, it's not going to go well for them. They're building a world that's going to lead to literal destruction, not just metaphorical destruction, not just an illustration, not just a metaphor. But the world that they're building is going to be destroyed. It will be rubble, like literal, physical material rubble. And that's what God keeps speaking to. Mention of Gilgal. That was what you mentioned, Brent. I don't necessarily have anything. Gilgal is like this crazy. It's referenced in Joshua. So you'd have the violence component if it was Joshua's Gilgal.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

I believe that's where they're circumcised right before they go across to Jericho. And then there's a whole bunch of Gilgal with Saul. Then there's Gilgal as other references throughout the Hebrew scriptures. So it's hard to know exactly what's in mind here. I didn't see anything that leapt off the page. But you were saying you're studying Saul right now and you keep hearing Gilgal come up.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, and that's literally all I have to offer is I was going through Saul, not related to this at all. And I just remember, even last night I was listening to some chapter, I can't even remember what it was, but I remember thinking like, wow, he keeps going to Gilgal. And I. I didn't look into it any more than that. But it just, it came up more often than I was expecting it to as I was going through that.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

But yeah, Joshua too for sure.

[Marty Solomon]

So yeah, we'll have to see if our Joshua has anything to. To say about Gilgal. But that's. And it could be as easy as just saw. Like it could just be the Saul story. It would fit Hosea's political expediency, idolatry, self oriented self indulgence, seeking of power. Like that fits the Saul storyline pretty well too. So that would be a callback enough if that's what it is.

[Brent Billings]

But yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, we got one last. Hosea is going to pop back in here. So Hosea is all caught up in the pathos here. Like God's talking and Hosea's chipping in. And God's talking and Hosea's chipping in. So he's got one more chip in here. The last verse of Hosea 9.

[Brent Billings]

My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him. They will be wanderers among the nations.

[Marty Solomon]

Which I think you have to feel like you have to get swept up in this. You have to see Hosea. If he's breaking into what God is doing, it's easy just to read Hosea 9 and not feel any of that. But if you realize that God's in the middle of giving a prophecy, God's speaking and Hosea is like he's being prompted. Like there's some deep. Like if this, if it had a musical score here, it would be intense at this moment. Like Hosea is getting caught up in the pathos and erupting forth with his own words. He's got anger. He's got a call for what we would call Dean in session two. He doesn't just want justice, he wants a particular kind of justice. He wants retributive justice, subjugative justice. He wants justice that actually is going to get the job done. Pronounce a judgment. He wants that deen that Dean we talked about in session two. And you can feel that in Hosea's words. So that gets us to the end of Hosea9. I wish he had a nice closing, couple verses of hope, but it's not to be found in Hosea9.

[Brent Billings]

Not yet. Not yet.

[Marty Solomon]

But I did, I did have believe it or not. Brent, Another little tidbit, an illustration that has been stuck in my mind since I started studying for this series out of the Lovett material. You remember the 1994 Minister's Manual that I'm not recommending but every now and then has a paragraph of gold.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, yeah, it doesn't seem like it's particularly available and accessible anyway, but yeah, good.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, here's this one little paragraph and I thought this was a great metaphor. I'm looking for new metaphors to help us break up the monotony here. Lovett said this, and remember, this is coming out in 1994. In 1884, water hyacinths were brought, which is a tree, if I understand it correctly. They were brought from South America to New Orleans as an exhibit at the cotton exhibition. People loved the orchid like lavender blossoms. One story reports that a woman in San Mateo, Florida put the plant in her fish pond and it grew so rapidly that she threw the surplus into the St. Johns river nearby. Within 10 years, the plants had spread all over the water area, more than half the size of Manhattan today. This would be 1994. Water hyacinths clog waterways all along the Gulf coast states. In Florida alone, cleaning hyacinths from the inland waters is a never ending job. The cleaning bill runs more than $650,000 a year. And Lovett used that as an illustration of, you let the stuff in, you let just a little bit of this idolatry in. He focused on in his sermon. He focused on where was the reference to rot? I think it was at the end there. Oh, yes, verse 16. Ephraim is blighted, their root is withered, they yield no fruit. And his big theme was, you let a little bit of this idolatry, you let a little bit of this sin, you let a little bit of this violence in and it just spreads like dry rot. It spreads like whatever. And he used this illustration of these trees that got planted and then all of a sudden you have to just move them out and it becomes this unmanageable, unsustainable. It's this great image I've carried with me of the destruction and why this isn't going to work. Reaping the whirlwind like you'll never be. You get a little bit started and it's not going to be able. It's like the reverse of the mustard seed per. With the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is like a water hyacinth. So is the kingdom of hell. And like, you get a little bit in there and it's going to have a hard time on an imperial level, on a social level, on a political level, you're going to have a hard time rooting that out. And I've kind of had that picture stuck in my head ever since I worked through some of that material. But anyway, thought I would share it close.

[Brent Billings]

Not a tree, actually, it's a flower.

[Marty Solomon]

I wondered. As soon as I started saying that, I'm like, I bet it's not a tree. I bet it's like, not like my.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I recognize this. I didn't know what it was. I would not have looked at this flower and been able to tell you what it was. But I recognize it now that I see what it is.

[Marty Solomon]

So, you know, I was just reading and I was reading some Richard Rohr today, and he was talking about how he has a prayer every day. He has a prayer that God will humble, like, humble him at least once a day, and that he'll be awake enough to pay attention to his response to that humbling moment. And I just. That that struck me this morning, so that was my humbling moment for the day, you know, like a tree. Actually, it's a flower. Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah, the. I mean, I guess this isn't a biblical reference, but there are so many instances of biblical references where it's like, really? That's what you're. You're calling that a tree? And then I see it in Israel. It's like.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, yeah, if you.

[Brent Billings]

If you say so.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Well, Brent, I said it was going to be a nice short episode today, and we should have known better.

[Brent Billings]

Now, Jeremiah really, you know, brought us over. Over the brink, I guess.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, sure did. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, I'm sure you knew better. I didn't. I.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure. I kind of. That Isaiah episode on prophetic pathos is episode 362. I'll go back and revisit that.

[Marty Solomon]

Good.

[Brent Billings]

If you don't want to. If you don't know what a hyacinth is, I guess I'll throw a link in there as well. You probably know what it is. You probably do, but you just don't know that, you know. You can find more details about the [e-mail] of course, check out the show notes on the website or in your podcast app. You can use the contact page on the website to get in touch with us. If you want to tell us all your bird details that we're missing, we're ready for that. And I would just say again, thank you to everyone who supports us. Everything we do is made possible by people who support our work. And you can find out more about that on the website as well. So thanks for joining us on the BMO podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.