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- [00:00]
Katherine McNeil
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we're joined by Katherine McNeil, an author, speaker, and hospital chaplain who likes to mingle theology with real life on the ground. She's an M. Div. Student at North Park Seminary and the author of Fearing bravely, which we'll be discussing today. Catherine and her husband live in the Chicago suburbs where she cares for three kids, two. Two jobs and one enormous garden. She's on the lookout for wisdom, beauty, and iced coffee, which are things that I'm not. I mean, wisdom and beauty. Shirt, iced coffee, not so much. So I love that little bit of color that I got in the intro, Catherine. But welcome to the show.
- [00:45]
Katherine McNeil
Well, thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you too.
- [00:48]
Brent Billings
And I would invite you to add any more color to the simple sketch that I've offered here. Tell us a little bit of the finer things about your life or your family or whatever you want to share.
- [00:57]
Katherine McNeil
Well, absolutely. Life is very full for me right now. I've got three teenagers, so there is no end of. There's no end of something going on. My oldest is 18 and in his senior year. Another thing that keeps our lives very full is we have. It's that enormous garden that you mentioned in the bio. It's probably more enormous than the average listener is imagining. We typically plant about 100, 170 tomato plants alone each year.
- [01:30]
Brent Billings
My goodness.
- [01:31]
Katherine McNeil
And I would defy you to list a vegetable we have not at least attempted to grow. So it is between teenagers and plants. My life is very full, but it's full of growth, so that's fun.
- [01:43]
Marty Solomon
My parents had three tomato plants, basically my whole childhood until I left the home. And we were always giving tomato. We couldn't eat tomatoes enough and fast enough. I can't even imagine what you're doing with 100. Some Wowzers.
- [01:57]
Katherine McNeil
Well, we sell a lot of vegetables off of our front porch, kind of like a lemonade stand that never ends. And we have a lot of fun, especially the teenagers doing that. And then we make a lot of spaghetti sauce.
- [02:09]
Marty Solomon
Oh, yeah. I love that.
- [02:11]
Katherine McNeil
We eat a lot of spaghetti. Yes, indeed.
- [02:13]
Brent Billings
Well, I'm curious about the hospital chaplaincy, which was not in my original version of the bio, which I just pulled it from Amazon, and I'm like, well, we'll see. Even the enormous garden. I was like, do I need the word enormous? Turns out I do.
- [02:27]
Katherine McNeil
You did? Yep. That was good.
- [02:28]
Brent Billings
I'm glad I kept that in. But I'm interested In your hospital chaplaincy, that's, that's a new thing for you. How'd you get into that?
- [02:35]
Katherine McNeil
You know, it's been a long time goal of mine. I have always been kind of pastoral by nature, if not by profession. And I've. My very first job when I was 16 years old was working as a registered nurse's assistant in a nursing home. And I thought to myself, I don't know that I'm cut out for caring for people's medical or physical needs, but I love the component of being with them emotionally and spiritually during whatever crisis has brought them to our facility. So it's been a long time coming, but here I am finally making that dream a reality. So I, I love getting called into emergent situations and being able to meet people in some of their hardest moments of life with, with a calm, hopefully caring presence and help them to, to get through. Um, it's, it's been a really special sacred next step for me.
- [03:37]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, those are beautiful words to use with that. When I got hired at Impact, there was a question on the application, employment application. What part of ministry do you hate the most? And I used to always say death in hospitals. So I really appreciate people that I'm getting better as I get older and, and just growing spiritually and theologically, but it's still one of those most uncomfortable places. And I love people that maybe they wouldn't call it comfortable and enjoyment, but they gravitate to those spaces as something sacred.
- [04:07]
Katherine McNeil
I do.
- [04:08]
Marty Solomon
Now you also mentioned this to us. You mentioned you're on the slow M. Div. Journey. I have just started my own graduate study and it's gonna be slow too. Like it's just one class at a time. One class at a time. And what has that been like and what have you enjoyed? Is that connected to your. Does your chaplaincy kind of get worked into that M. Div. Program or how does that.
- [04:30]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah, those are very much connected. And this also is a long time dream, finally reaching some level of fulfillment again. When I was in probably seven years old, I could have told you I wanted to go to seminary, but between one thing and another, I was in my 40s before I started. So I, I feel extremely grateful that the path that God has me on has finally led here. And it is a very slow burn. I'm getting that the Master of Divinity, which is a very large degree, but I'm enjoying every minute of almost five years in. So I'm, I. The end is in sight. And one of the reasons I did it Was it is a one of the qualifications required for most chaplaincy jobs. And it also did include the clinical pastoral education, which is a requirement for chaplaincy as well. So those definitely dovetail together.
- [05:23]
Brent Billings
Well, that is just beautiful work. I. I mean, yeah, the bio says mingle theology with real life on the ground. I think. I think you're doing more than mingling. I think you're really, like, in the trenches. Yeah. Same for Marty. As for me, those things are not my forte, so absolutely appreciate that work so much. But I'd love to know how you know Marty, how you know Bama. Like, what. What brings you here today? How did we all get connected?
- [05:50]
Katherine McNeil
Well, I met Bama through Marty, and I think I met Marty through our books. I first heard of Marty when our shared editor, the editor of both of some of our books, at least sent me his manuscript, if I'm remembering this correctly, and asked if I could write a blurb for it. And I sat down to read it and absolutely, absolutely loved it. It was asking better questions of the Bible. And I could not have been more thrilled to add my name to. To the book endorsements and process. It was absolutely spectacular. So I was excited to chat a little bit with Marty over email after that. And I think, Marty, that's prob. You found me and my books, and the rest is history.
- [06:38]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I can remember. So I'm on this brand new adventure. I've signed this new contract. I didn't know what to expect, didn't have any interaction with Nav Press, like, personally. And I get invited into this private Facebook group for the authors at Nav Press, and they do this introductory post and I'm just, like, super nervous. And like the first person that, like, I can't remember if you liked it or loved it or said hello or something. The first positive was Katherine just bang popped in there. And then her name showed up again when Caitlin said, hey, she's gonna do an endorsement. And I was just so deep. Everything was so new that Katherine became this friend of mine, and I realized when she jumped on the zoom call, this is like the closest we've actually ever come to meeting in person.
- [07:28]
Katherine McNeil
Absolutely.
- [07:29]
Marty Solomon
Because it's been like this online distant friendship and. And it's just an author buddy. And yeah, I did. I got Fearing bravely and started reading your stuff. I loved Fearing bravely. It was such a great book.
- [07:45]
Katherine McNeil
Thank you.
- [07:45]
Marty Solomon
Which is really what I wanted to spend time. I want to talk about all your stuff today, but selfishly, I want to talk about my favorite book of yours. Fearing bravely, risking love for our neighbors, strangers and enemies. And I have to. I'll start by reading the back of the book. First of all, the first statement. We have so many reasons to be afraid. Some of them good, by the way. Like, we have some good reasons to be afraid. Some of them not good, but we have some good. Yet. Jesus says, do not fear. Everywhere we turn, we're bombarded by fear. This world we love can be an unpredictable and chaotic place. Sometimes it feels like everything we hold dear is fragile. But Christ followers are called to enter this world and love, Love our neighbors, take care of strangers, love and pray for even our enemies. Jesus said his followers would be recognized not by our labels, but by our love, a love that conquers fear. Paragraph later. And Fearing bravely, Kathryn McNeill invites us on a journey through our very real fears into love. You don't have to live in fear. You can be made alive and set free by the love of God. Will you follow Jesus? I have seen a lot of comments from other people about, like, some books seem to, like, okay, this is the year of this new book. And then some books seem to have, like, this unique staying power, like I've noticed in the Twitterverse and in social media. Like, I notice people coming back now, years later to this. It seems like it has a shelf life that has continued beyond just its publication. What has that been like? And what is the larger reaction to this book? And what has that been like for you?
- [09:23]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah, that's a great question. And I hope that's true. I hope it has staying power. I definitely wrote it with the hope that it would because our fears are evergreen. I think the comments I get from people are. It took them by surprise that they have been surprised. They thought that I was probably not talking to them, that they, they knew this already. They know what Jesus says, but that they found something in it that, that challenged them and that. Or inspired them, that they found something in it that was for them and that. That they were surprised by that. I've. I've heard from pastors who have used it in a sermon series. I've heard from professors that have used it in their classes. I've heard from book clubs and Bible studies. And I'm glad for that because I did intentionally, I wrote it. It's a. It's a book. It's not a workbook. It's. It's something that you could sit down and read with a cup of coffee, but. Or, you know, iced coffee. But.
- [10:21]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I was going to say iced coffee.
- [10:23]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah, yeah, love it. But I, I'm hoping that people will read it in community because a lot of what I'm, I'm saying is that Jesus is calling us together to live in a way that is in opposition to this fear mongering way of life that we're often being discipled into.
- [10:44]
Brent Billings
You know, as we record, we're actually pre election, as the episode comes out, it will be post election, so we don't even know what's going to happen. And that kind of doesn't matter because as you said, our fears are evergreen. Yeah, but, but is there like, do you think that this book has anything particular to say for elections or is it, I mean, it's bigger than that. Yeah, but like what, like what can we, what can we take away from, from the fears? Because we've already, even at this point, I don't even want to say what day we're recording because like tomorrow everything.
- [11:17]
Katherine McNeil
Could change, everything will be different. Yeah.
- [11:19]
Brent Billings
Crazy things have already happened and I'm sure more crazy things will come to pass and all of these fears just get, get us wound up. So, so what can we take away from this idea of like disconnecting from that fear entirely?
- [11:35]
Katherine McNeil
It's interesting because I pitched this book, I outlined it, had kind of the main flow of it all worked out before 2020, but I wrote the book in 2020, and as no one has forgotten, we were in the midst of the early days of a global pandemic. We were in the middle of another volatile election season in the United States, but then it came out in 2022. So we were in a different place than when I wrote it. We were in a different place than when I first envisioned it. So it's been interesting to see how it's kind of grown through that whole process. But to answer your question, I very intentionally did not write this about politics. I don't talk about the pandemic, I don't talk about the political system in the United States. But I do talk about, I tell a lot of stories about what Jesus taught. And I look at Jesus social location and the social location of the Earth Church and I see that they, when Jesus was saying don't be afraid, they were actually in an incredibly dangerous scenario. Almost every time that God or Jesus is saying don't be afraid, it's not because there's no danger. He's not saying everything's fine, nothing is fine. But he's saying there's something bigger going on and you're going to be able to function here. If you can focus on love and not on fear. And that's, I think, what I'm wanting to do in this book. Whether it's an election cycle or not, whether we're in a pandemic or not, whether there's difficult things happening in the news or not, there are so many voices around us that are exploiting our fears so that they can gain their own narrative, their own power. And Jesus, in the midst of all of this, is not denying the dangers, not saying there's no reason to be afraid. But I believe Jesus is inviting us to live a different kind of life where we are no longer slaves to fear, and instead we are working together to create an environment where love is our guiding light and not our fears.
- [13:47]
Marty Solomon
Yes. I was one of those people that you mentioned a moment ago, Catherine, where I would have probably assumed, like, yeah, I'm gonna love this book. I kind of already know what it's going to say. And then, like, it's like my. So on my Goodreads review, like, I went back there to remember what. Because I wrote the. I read this, you know, back when it. Closer to its publication. So I had to go back and look at what I wrote. And my first lines of my review, holy smokes. This was a book another read that completely snuck up on me. Like, that same impulse that some people shared with you, like, wasn't expecting, but it really was. I said, McNeil places you in good hands as she encourages us to say yes to the challenging yoke of Jesus and his call to love everyone. The book is practical, poetic, profound. It ushers a clarion call and a prophetic challenge to Jesus followers today to consider what it means to love our neighbors, strangers and enemies. Don't make the mistake. I did, thinking that there would be a section that would be easy to swallow. McNeil made even the elementary ideas powerful and poignant. I was challenged in every chapter and better for it. She did all this without being preachy or unnecessarily provocative or polarized. And I think for a lot of people, like, we have talked on our podcast about books that are more direct at the political nature or the election cycles. And I think a lot for those people that are like, that's not quite what I'm looking for. But when we talk about loving our like, there's nothing more deeply political than the way we love our neighbors, than the way we love our enemies. And so it's super relevant without having to talk about those things in such a direct way. And I think that is so much of what I loved. It was a challenge, like the book was a challenge to me. It wasn't abstract, it was really concrete. It was practical. I came away from the book encouraged to be the more loving person that Jesus called me to be. When you set out to write this, like you talked about pitching the idea, what was the impulse? What was the thing that lit the fire in you to say, I have something to say about this? What was that?
- [15:49]
Katherine McNeil
I think what always, as a writer, what always hooks me is on a topic is a discrepancy that I'm seeing. And the discrepancy that kind of was the impetus for this book was that when I open the Bible, when I'm reading the gospels, when I'm seeing in particular Jesus time on earth and Jesus instructions for his followers and the apostles, letters to each other and to the, to the church, to the early churches, I'm hearing this powerful again message like, we are people of resurrection. We believe that God has conquered death. Like, you know, they were living in the midst of a very dangerous empire. They were that the Roman empire existed through the Roman peace was created through danger, through violence. That's how they brought about, quote, peace. And in fact, they, they killed Jesus. This is how Jesus died in the most humiliating and painful way we have yet figured out how to kill a person. And so again, there was nothing safe about it. But. But in the opening, I'm maybe getting a little excited here, but the opening story that I tell is of the resurrection day of the morning, where the women are terrified to find an empty tomb because they're not safe. Their teacher has just been killed by the state. And so what's going on? You know, it's. If anything goes not according to plan, it means more danger for them. And then it ends this, that the day ends with the friends huddled in a room together, trying to figure things out. And then suddenly Jesus appears. And I say, nothing has made them safer. Their teacher is still an enemy of the state, and now he's alive. But somehow everything changes for them. They stop huddling, they stop shaking in fear. They. They go out, they tell everyone, and what is it about the resurrection that changed not their circumstances, but their outlook? Because they are still a people who are going to be hunted and killed and made to suffer and marginalized by the many religious and political powers of their day. But they suddenly were filled with joy. They were suddenly empowered to follow Jesus path of caring for their neighbors, but also caring for their strangers, caring for enemies. They were empowered to spread this good news of Resurrection of power over death. So I'm seeing this just incredible story that we as Christians believe are true is true on the one hand. But on the other hand, I'm turning on the radio, I'm listening to sermons, I'm picking up books, I'm turning on the television, I'm going on the Internet, and I'm finding just these incredibly paralyzingly fearful messages about how we need to be very afraid of the people who live in our town. Like, we can't send our kids to the schools, we need to be careful where we buy a home, that the immigrants that are coming into our communities are extremely dangerous, that there are enemies all around. We have to protect ourselves. Like, we may even need to go to war in order to, you know, to. There's just so much fear. And these messages are increasingly being associated with the word Christian. And that's the discrepancy again. I went on and on, but that's the discrepancy that weighed on me every moment of every day. And I wanted to explore that. I wanted to say, if Jesus says that his followers are the ones known not for their fear, but for their love, then where are Jesus true followers? Is the word Christian and a helpful word to help us find them? What. What does it look like to actually take Jesus resurrection and his invitation seriously in a society that is just drenched, absolutely marinating fear from one day to the next?
- [19:56]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, that. It's a perfect segue to my. To my next question. My last paragraph of the review says. Throughout the entire read, McNeil anchored the problem to her opening section, a section on fear and how it has too often taken hold of Christian practice. She does not offer deceptive solace. For a moment. Our call to live in courage and not let fear define how we see others could cost us everything. But that is the way of our teacher. I loved this connection and how you. You couch this whole conversation with the connection to fear and how it keeps us from love. I kept seeing all these echoes from Brene Brown, one of my favorite authors and thinkers, and obviously the fearing bravely versus the, you know, a play on the other quote. I just loved that. What kinds of things have you heard or learned, whether it's in yourself or for. I know when I publish my book, you end up having all of these additional conversations after it comes out. Yes, it's like post research, research from everybody. What kind of things have you heard or learned about fear and its connection to loving others since you've written this.
- [20:59]
Katherine McNeil
Book, since, oh, that's such A good question. Well, you know, part of the privilege of writing a book is the people who will reach out to you after.
- [21:07]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [21:08]
Katherine McNeil
So listeners, please feel free to find me online. I would love to hear from you. And hearing the stories of how the rubber has met the road for people, for communities, people sometimes reaching out with questions because they're saying, you know, I have this really challenging scenario in which we are in an unsafe situation and so we are afraid, but we also are hearing Jesus call to respond with love, you know, where's the balance there? And obviously I don't have easy answers for anything, but I'm so grateful to be a part of the conversation because it's, it's conversation that I'm hoping we'll have. But to more specifically answer your question, one of the most mind blowing things that I think I've learned about fear through this whole process is, as we said earlier in this conversation, that it's not. Fear is not inherently a bad thing. It's, you know, it's what keeps me from running in front of a car. It's what keeps me from jumping off out of my window. Even though it looks so beautiful outside, we know that there's some danger and our brain is equipped to tell us, you know, to help us stay alive. And so that is a beautiful, wonderful gift from God. But it can be exploited. It can be exploited by our own thought process and our own psyches. And it is absolutely being exploited by people outside of our, outside of our heads who want to, want us to submit to them, to surrender to them. And they know that we will if we, if we are afraid and believe that they are offering us protection. So I think watching the many ways that we are being exploited, that this good gift that God has given us is being used to destroy us. I think that's, that's what I have learned the most.
- [23:04]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, it's beautiful. I can tell you as I read it that as I, yeah, every chapter is on different group. Like had these three sections of friends and strangers and enemies. And every section I found myself going, oh, there's a place that I'm holding back. There's a, it can be in my own church and fellowship. There's a place that I'm holding back. It could be in people in my own community. And I didn't realize that fear was creating a narrative, but it was like, oh, I need to, I need to fight, I need to fight that narrative of fear and press into that and see what's on it. Like that the whole book was One of those encouraging moments. I feel like God gives us these things that kind of keep calling us back to things we know, like, we inherently know. But we have to be challenged to, like, nope, don't just know it. Like, live that. And that was a big part of my experience.
- [23:53]
Katherine McNeil
So much of it is weird. We're sometimes, I think, assume that our faith is something we know, something we understand, something we agree to. And there's definitely a component to that. I'm an M. Div. Student. You know, I love ideas. But Jesus is saying, feed my sheep. You know, he's saying, go to those who are hungry. Go to those who are thirsty. Go to those who need shelter. If you see someone dying along the side of the road, like, it's. It's on you to make sure that they're cared for, even if it's dangerous. And the story of the Good Samaritan is one of the foundational stories that I tell in this book. And I just, just am so challenged by Jesus. Invitation through that story to not look at scenarios through a lens of what's in it for me or what will this cost me? But what is. What is needed? What am I being invited to give?
- [24:50]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I. I was thinking about even. Just the. I mean, Marty says that it's not overly provocative, but I think even. Even the titles of some of your chapters are very provocative. Like chapter four, Next Door Strangers, and chapter five, who are the people in your neighborhood? That is something that I've, you know, noticed in the last couple years. I've been in my house 10 years, and it's only in the last, like, year or two that I've actually gotten to know more than one or two of my neighbors.
- [25:19]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah.
- [25:19]
Brent Billings
And so that, that, like, even. Even that, like, really hit me. Like, what are some things that you've learned about getting to know the people who actually physically share space with you in your neighborhood? Maybe your tomato sales are part of that or whatever it is. What is the thing that we should take away as far as just getting to know the people that we actually live around?
- [25:39]
Katherine McNeil
Well, you know, as Paul says, not that I have already attained all this. You know, I wrote this book for myself. You know, I wrote this book because I wanted to explore why I don't know my neighbors, why I am afraid to care for strangers, why I don't know how to love my enemy. Definitely not putting myself up as the paragon of solutions. But one of the stories that I tell in Fearing bravely is of a night when there was a terrible fire. A few blocks from our house. And as the sirens just kept going by and as the noise got louder and louder, everyone came out. It's probably 11:00 at night. We're all standing around in our pajamas watching from a safe distance, you know, trying to figure out if everyone is okay, if there's something we can do. But as we're chatting with each other, we're realizing, like, we live three or four doors down from each other and we've never met each other, or we. Or we recognize each other's faces, but we don't know each other's names and certainly not each other's stories. And it was so. It was so informative for me, provocative, maybe even for me to realize that in this moment of crisis, we all answer the call out of curiosity, if not out of compassion. But we really don't know each other. And how can we? How can we. How can I follow Jesus instruction to love my neighbor the way I love myself if I don't know my neighbor? A lot of that is how American society is set up. And I do a lot of sacrificial caregiving for the people in my life and they just don't happen to be the people who live next door to me. But that's still a challenge, challenge I want to take seriously because it wasn't pretty low down on the list of things Jesus said is important to God. It was literally right up there with loving God, right? So I'd love. I'd love for us to explore as a Christian community, how can we do this number one thing that Jesus has asked of us if we don't, if we're not investing time in getting to even know the people in our neighborhoods well.
- [27:50]
Marty Solomon
And this is when you say that these are the kind, like, this is going to be one of those years, I'm sure election cycles, the cultural narrative we see in the news and all around us, like, this is where you start to despair. No matter what side you're on or who wins or like, what. Like, this is where you're like, the problems are so big. How could I ever make a difference? But the things that you are talking about in this book that we're talking about here today, these are the concrete things that are actually I can put my hope in because these things do make a difference. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna change the entire world or change our country or change even Christianity or evangelicalism, but I know how I could make a difference in my church. Yeah, I know how I Could like, man, getting to know people in my own subdivision. Like, that's a small thing, but that's a huge thing. And that could have a huge impact on. There's 111 homes on this subdivision that I live in. Like, I can start to get my, you know, going to the school district, getting involved, meeting people that I wouldn't otherwise. Okay, those are concrete things that actually make a hopeful, resurrection, drenched difference in the world. And yeah, so I just, I just love that part of it is a way that we can fight that despair right now in our culture is like saying, okay, but who lives? Who are the 10 families closest to me geographically? How can I sell 150 plants worth of tomatoes off my. I love that. Well, that's my favorite book. But I also know you've written other books, Katherine. What other books and projects have you. And you can feel free to share them, talk about all of them. Like, what other projects and books have you released in the past? What are some of your favorite moments or things that you've done as a creator? What do you got out there?
- [29:42]
Katherine McNeil
Well, I am pretty close to a full time writer, editor and speaker, so I have created a lot of things. But I think I'll focus my time with you on my books. Fearing Bravely, Risking Love for Neighbors, Strangers and Enemies is my most recent book. But my first book is called Long Days of Small Motherhood as a Spiritual Discipline. And this is written, you know, the word mother is in the title, but it's really about caregivers and how the work that we're doing, when we're pouring ourselves out, we're exhausted, we're giving, we're giving, we're giving is not something that keeps us away from the practices of faith. Even though we might not have time to go to a Bible study or we might not be awake enough to pray without falling asleep. That these are the places where God is meeting us. That God was literally born and God literally took on a body. And that God has both incarnated and redeemed the world through these most physical, bodily aspects of our existence. And so the seasons of life, when we're bogged down with caring for our bodies or other people's bodies is not a distraction from the spiritual. The spiritual world. It's actually where God has come and met us. So the back of that one says rich soul inspiring practices for moms who have neither quiet nor time. So yes, that's a, that's a favorite of mine. But of course they all are. My second book is called all shall be well. Awakening to God's presence in his messy, abundant world. And this is also both of these first two books, Long Days of Small Things and All shall be well. Well, actually fearing bravely too. I wanted, like you said in the bio, to mingle theology with our the stuff of our actual lives, like the things that our hands are actually touching and our feet are actually walking through. And so as I did in the first book about parenting, I did in the second book about just being outside both the the ebb and flow of the seasons. The book starts in spring and all of the sp fruit that we are invited to imagine in the spring, like hope and faith and beauty, that things are coming that we can't see yet. Then it goes into summer and the abundance and the purposefulness of summer. And then autumn with surrender, with trust as we head into the unknown. And then winter seasons of dormancy, which come with both an invitation to rest as well as a deep invitation to trust because we don't know if we'll make it through. And then as a spoiler, it ends in spring again in resurrection. So I definitely tell a lot of stories from my garden there, but just inviting the reader and myself to open our eyes to God's presence in the world that he created as creator. So those are my three books that are out right now. I am actually finishing up the edits for my fourth book, which is going to be. The first three are with NAP Press. This fourth one is going to be with InterVarsity Press, and it is about Mid Faith Crisis.
- [33:04]
Marty Solomon
I love that. Goodness, that's a great. That's a great little phrase there.
- [33:08]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah. Thank you. The full title and probably the COVID and even pre orders will probably be available by the time this podcast is released. But at the moment I don't have all that. But it will be titled Mid Faith Crisis and I'm hoping to. Well, I have told stories of all very real, very legitimate reasons why we might hit a wall in our life cycle of faith and say, you know, what is this? How do I even move forward? But as with my other books, I'm trying to be very invitational, not preachy, but talk about actual paths forward.
- [33:49]
Marty Solomon
You do that well, like just as a writer, as the pieces of your art that I get to interact with. Like, I know our good friend, shared friend Caitlin, I think at some point talked about like being a trusted partner, a trusted guide in projects like this, and I definitely felt like you were talking about stuff directly and yet I didn't feel like I felt like you Were this co laborer, like you didn't have it all together, but you were challenging us. And it was a very. I just love the voice that you use in your writing. So. So you do that well.
- [34:26]
Katherine McNeil
I really appreciate that. Thank you. That's what I pray to do.
- [34:30]
Marty Solomon
Yes. Brent, what do you got?
- [34:32]
Brent Billings
I'm wondering, I haven't read your other two books. They're out. But is there a through line between the three books? Because it almost seems like those first two are like, here's some things that can enrich your life. And then you get those out and people are like, yeah, but I just can't do that. And it's like, oh, there's something blocking us from. From engaging these practices and seeing, you know, the all will be like there's this fear that just kind of like clouds over the rest of it.
- [34:59]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah.
- [34:59]
Brent Billings
Like, is that. Is that. Is that just my own made up idea of how these are connected or is there something to that?
- [35:05]
Katherine McNeil
No, there might be something to that. I think one thing that I just keep going back through in all of these books is that Christians believe that God is here, that we don't need to, you know, figure out some sort of riddle to find God, that we don't need to get a master's of divinity to find God, that we can just take a breath and realize that the breath we're breathing in is God's breath, because that's how he created the world and that he came here and he has rested here with us. And so whether we're very busy caregiving, whether we are walking across the lawn on our way to the car, whether we are chatting with neighbors at the grocery store, that God is present. And that impacts both how we function in the world from a personal perspective. You know, we can be reaching for love, we can be reaching for peace and receiving those things because they are here, because Jesus is alive. But it also impacts how we are postured towards others, that as we are receiving that presence, that we are invited to be that presence to those around us as well. And so I think that would be what links them together if there was something.
- [36:26]
Marty Solomon
It's that mingling that you keep talking about making theology cool in all these cool places.
- [36:31]
Katherine McNeil
Because I hope so.
- [36:33]
Marty Solomon
It really does matter. Like, theology done well really changes, really changes everything.
- [36:38]
Katherine McNeil
Well, and theology done poorly changes everything too. That's the truth that matters to me a lot. So I want to have good conversations about what we say about God.
- [36:49]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, absolutely. All right. So you mentioned that you have that project coming out and if those links are out, we're going to share all that stuff in the show notes so people can know. Do you have anything else you're working on that's on the horizon that is ahead of you that's coming out? Anything else that we ought to know about from Katharine McNeil and what to be looking for?
- [37:09]
Brent Billings
Yeah, feel free to tell us about the other things that you do. I mean, you said you have all these, these full time, you know, things and like you can share about more than your books. Go for it.
- [37:19]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [37:19]
Katherine McNeil
Okay. Well, actually, you mentioned Nav Press and our friends there. They hired me to be the general editor for a women's devotional Bible which will also be coming out in 2025. So I'm extremely excited about that. It's obviously I didn't rewrite the Bible, but I did work with a number of authors to create devotional materials that are going to be inserted inside of the Bible. And the reason why I'm excited about it is that when Nav Press asked me to do this, I said, you know, I don't know that I would buy a women's devotional Bible. And they said, that is exactly why we want you to be the editor.
- [38:01]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [38:02]
Katherine McNeil
But now pressure, we went deep. We talked about a lot of topics that are in the Bible that maybe the average male pastor or commentator would prefer not to think about or maybe doesn't even realize how the way it has been taught or interpreted has impacted women. And so we did not pull any punches. And I'm extremely excited about that project, which is also coming out through Nat Press in 2025. Otherwise, I write for a lot of organizations, sometimes with my name attached, sometimes not. But if you'd like to Google Kathryn McNeil, as long as you spell right, you'll probably come up with more things than you were hoping to find.
- [38:49]
Brent Billings
Perfect. Well, do you have like a website that people should go to or social media that you prefer or anything like that?
- [38:56]
Katherine McNeil
Absolutely. Everything is atherinemcneal. So my website is kathrynmcneil.com and if you go there, there will be a little pop up where you can sign up for my newsletter, which goes out very rarely, so there is no chance of me spamming you. So don't hesitate there. And then all my social media is atherinemcneil. Again, as long as you spell it right. But I'm on Twitter, threads, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. You can find me at Catherine McNeil.
- [39:27]
Brent Billings
Well, your name will be in the title of this episode, so it'll be an easy reference for people to find that.
- [39:32]
Katherine McNeil
Okay.
- [39:33]
Marty Solomon
And I love that we. Everybody's just on board. Like, the general public is just like, it's still Twitter. We don't even care.
- [39:39]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah, absolutely.
- [39:40]
Marty Solomon
It's just Twitter. I love it.
- [39:42]
Katherine McNeil
Power to the people.
- [39:44]
Brent Billings
I love it.
- [39:44]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah. And I do love hearing from readers and listeners. So if you're not sure that you should really reach out, please do.
- [39:52]
Brent Billings
Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, we will have all of those links in the show notes as well, so people can just click on that and get to the right thing. We'll add the Bible in there whenever that that is available for pre order or order whenever. I mean, people could be listening to this at any point in time. So once those things are available, if we talked about in the episode, we'll get those links in there and yeah, people will find all that stuff. But, Katherine, it's been a great conversation and I love your heart for people and thank you so much for sharing a bit about yourself with us and our audience.
- [40:29]
Katherine McNeil
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I'm grateful anytime I can actually use these words to talk to real people and hopefully continue to spark conversation about what it looks like to represent God well and God's love in this world.
- [40:44]
Marty Solomon
Keep mingling that theology. I love it.
- [40:46]
Katherine McNeil
That's right.
- [40:47]
Marty Solomon
Keep at it.
- [40:48]
Katherine McNeil
Thank you.
- [40:48]
Brent Billings
Amen. Well, listeners can go to baymontastepshop.com to find the show notes and anything else that they need. You can get in touch with us on the website as well. So thanks for joining us on the Behemoth podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.