430: It’s a Wonderful Life

Summary

The BEMA Podcast - Episode 430: “It’s a Wonderful Life”

Release Date: December 26, 2024
Host/Author: BEMA Discipleship
Description: This episode delves into the classic film "It's a Wonderful Life," exploring its themes, characters, and underlying messages through a theological and historical lens. Hosts Brent Billings and Reed Dent engage in a candid discussion, comparing the movie to contemporary Hallmark Christmas offerings and drawing parallels to modern-day scenarios.

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Introduction to “It’s a Wonderful Life”

[00:00] Brent Billings:
Brent opens the episode with a humorous yet dark metaphor, setting the stage for a deep dive into the beloved classic, "It’s a Wonderful Life." He introduces Reed Dent as his co-host for this episode.

[00:26] Reed Dent:
Reed playfully interjects, steering the conversation towards a more edgy introduction, hinting at their intention to critically analyze the film.

[00:41] Brent Billings:
Brent acknowledges the movie's integral role in Christmas culture, emphasizing its ubiquity during the holiday season and encouraging listeners to watch it if they haven't yet.

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Contrasting “It’s a Wonderful Life” with Hallmark Christmas Movies

[02:10] Reed Dent:
Reed criticizes contemporary Hallmark Christmas movies, suggesting that watching "It’s a Wonderful Life" offers a more substantial cinematic experience. He provocatively claims, “you could be watching movie greatness,” positioning the classic film as superior to modern offerings.

[05:05] Brent Billings:
Brent provides historical context, explaining the film's public domain status from 1974 until the 1990s, which contributed to its widespread broadcast and cultural penetration. He advises against watching colorized or abridged versions, preserving the film's original black-and-white aesthetic and integrity.

[03:28] Reed Dent:
Reed shares his recent experience binge-watching multiple Hallmark movies during a family gathering, highlighting their perceived low quality. He contrasts this with his rejuvenating experience watching "It’s a Wonderful Life" afterward, describing it as "life-giving" compared to the "soul-destroying" Hallmark marathon.

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Deep Dive into "It’s a Wonderful Life" Characters and Themes

George Bailey’s Character Development

[11:55] Reed Dent:
Reed discusses George Bailey’s emotional journey, particularly his struggle with his desires versus his responsibilities. He interprets George’s breakdown as a natural response to perceived injustice and personal sacrifice.

[12:16] Brent Billings:
Brent initially expresses mixed feelings about George Bailey, citing inconsistencies in his character—moments of kindness juxtaposed with outbursts of anger. He shares a notable critique: “He is so strangely inconsistent. ... he's just like a monster.”

[14:08] Reed Dent:
Reed counters Brent’s critique by contextualizing George’s actions within his desperation, arguing that George’s anger and breakdown are understandable given his sacrifices and the immense pressures he faces.

[17:26] Reed Dent:
Reed points out instances of George’s aggressive behavior, such as his overly forceful kisses, and acknowledges these as character flaws. However, he emphasizes George’s underlying good intentions and his commitment to helping others, portraying him as a hero with human imperfections.

[23:55] Brent Billings:
Brent reflects on George's compassionate side, particularly his efforts to manage the Building and Loan to help the community, contrasting him with the antagonistic Mr. Potter. He highlights George’s inherent goodness despite his flaws.

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Symbolism and Artistic Elements in the Film

[28:00] Reed Dent:
Reed analyzes the film's symbolism, noting the macabre details in Mr. Potter’s office, such as the bejeweled skull and the bust of Napoleon, which add a layer of depth to the antagonist’s character.

[34:19] Brent Billings:
Brent shares a notable quote about Mr. Potter: “He’s sick in his mind. Sick in his soul, if he has one,” attributing it to George’s father, which underscores Potter’s portrayal as a soulless antagonist.

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Economic Themes and Real-World Parallels

[35:15] Brent Billings:
Brent references an NPR Planet Money episode discussing the film's economics, noting that the stolen $8,000 would equate to approximately $117,000 today. He juxtaposes this with George’s wish for a million dollars, translating to about $15 million today, highlighting the significant financial stakes depicted in the movie.

[36:06] Reed Dent:
Reed discusses the practicality of the financial amounts in the film, questioning the viability of such sums in real-life scenarios and the ethical implications of Mr. Potter’s actions.

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Climactic Scenes and Narrative Structure

[38:06] Reed Dent:
Reed draws parallels between George Bailey and the biblical David, positioning Mr. Potter as Goliath. He describes George’s role as a protector of the community, standing up against Potter’s profiteering.

[41:34] Brent Billings:
Brent reflects on the film’s climax, where George saves Clarence the angel by jumping into freezing waters, paralleling his earlier act of saving his brother. He commends George’s innate compassion despite his flaws.

[43:13] Reed Dent:
Reed praises the film’s communal message, highlighting the powerful scene where the townspeople come together to support George, reinforcing the film’s themes of community and mutual support.

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Mary Bailey’s Role and Characterization

[43:25] Brent Billings:
Brent lauds Mary Bailey, portrayed by Donna Reed, for her resilience and pivotal role in saving the Building and Loan. He admires her character’s strength and warmth, noting her crucial contribution to the film’s resolution.

[44:29] Reed Dent:
Reed echoes Brent’s sentiments, emphasizing Mary’s role as the true savior of the Building and Loan. He appreciates her character’s strength, wit, and unwavering support for George, portraying her as a beacon of hope and kindness.

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Modern Reflections and Cultural Impact

[47:10] Reed Dent:
Reed shifts the conversation towards contemporary culture, drawing a humorous analogy between the film’s themes and current football dynamics in Kansas City. He reflects on how shared experiences, like watching the film as a community, reinforce familial and communal bonds.

[50:38] Reed Dent:
Reed introduces a discussion about the Chiefs’ performance, linking it metaphorically to the film’s themes of resilience and strategic excellence. He contemplates the intricate strategies in football, akin to the film’s intricate plot and character motivations.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[48:17] Reed Dent:
Reed wraps up the episode with a festive greeting, blending humor and heartfelt wishes to listeners. He acknowledges the unique nature of this episode, diverging from the podcast’s usual content to explore a beloved Christmas classic.

[50:07] Reed Dent:
In a lighthearted exchange, Reed and Brent conclude with seasonal greetings, intertwining references to the film and their personal anecdotes, leaving listeners with a warm and festive sentiment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Brent Billings [00:34]: "Is that too offensive? No."

• Reed Dent [01:28]: "Especially if you're somebody who is wasting your life away watching horrible Hallmark Christmas movies when you could be watching It's a Wonderful Life."

• Brent Billings [02:20]: "I will throw in the just watch link."

• Reed Dent [03:28]: "Seven of these movies or six of these movies in a short period of time is a soul destroying experience."

• Brent Billings [12:03]: "I feel like everybody would say that in the other part. Like, when it's... He's still taking care of the community in that action or he thinks he is in taking that action."

• Reed Dent [22:02]: "George is somebody who. But he's a hero who does the right thing."

• Brent Billings [35:15]: "The $8,000 is about $117,000."

• Reed Dent [39:35]: "Mary is awesome. Mary is just phenomenal."

• Brent Billings [43:25]: "The thoughtfulness of how she set up the old broken down house for their honeymoon thing."

• Reed Dent [47:55]: "Merry Christmas, you filthy animals."

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Key Takeaways

1. Character Complexity: The hosts delve into George Bailey’s multifaceted character, highlighting his strengths and flaws, portraying him as a relatable and imperfect hero.

2. Contrasting Cinema: A significant portion of the discussion contrasts the timeless quality of "It’s a Wonderful Life" with the often formulaic and predictable nature of modern Hallmark Christmas movies.

3. Economic and Ethical Themes: The episode explores the economic transactions within the film, drawing parallels to real-world financial ethics and community support.

4. Symbolism and Artistic Merit: Attention is given to the film’s symbolic elements and set design, appreciating the deeper layers that contribute to its enduring legacy.

5. Mary Bailey’s Influence: The discussion underscores Mary Bailey’s pivotal role, celebrating her character’s strength and unwavering support, positioning her as a moral cornerstone of the narrative.

6. Cultural Reflections: The hosts bridge the film’s themes with contemporary cultural elements, including football, illustrating the universal and timeless nature of its messages.

7. Community and Redemption: Emphasis is placed on the film’s central theme of community support and personal redemption, resonating with the podcast’s focus on reconstructing common readings through historical and theological contexts.

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Conclusion: Episode 430 of The BEMA Podcast offers an in-depth and nuanced exploration of "It’s a Wonderful Life," dissecting its characters, themes, and cultural significance. Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, Brent Billings and Reed Dent provide listeners with a richer understanding of the film’s enduring impact and its place within both cinematic and communal traditions.

Transcript

[Brent Billings]

Foreign. This is the Bayw Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Reed Dent to drive this podcast into a tree and find out how many friends we actually have.

[Reed Dent]

Yes, this is. You should have let me do the.

[Brent Billings]

Intro because I didn't. I didn't tell you that's what I was going to say. But. Yeah, but what is that? Is that too offensive? No.

[Reed Dent]

Well. Or it could be. We're going to drive. We're going to jump off a bridge and see how many friends we have.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, dear. Well, we're talking about It's a Wonderful Life, a movie that you love dearly. Is that fair to say?

[Reed Dent]

Absolutely fair to say. Have for a long time.

[Brent Billings]

In some senses. I think it would be crazy to imagine somebody who hasn't seen this movie because it's just kind of like part of the Christmas culture. You've probably seen parts of it at least it's probably been on the background. Background noise around the house around Christmas for most people. But we are going to just talk about this whole thing and if you haven't seen it, like, by all means, I would say go watch it before we ruin it for you.

[Reed Dent]

Especially if you're somebody who is wasting your life away watching horrible Hallmark Christmas movies when you could be watching It's a one. Is that too aggressive? Am I being mean? If you.

[Brent Billings]

But they are horrible.

[Reed Dent]

You could be watching movie greatness. Not just Christmas movie greatness. It's a Wonderful Life is. It is considered a Christmas movie, but it's also just a great. It's just a great movie.

[Brent Billings]

It's kind of as much a Christmas movie as Die Hard is a Christmas movie.

[Reed Dent]

That is. That is a hot take that is going to. I think some people are going to fight you on that, Brent. I think. I don't even think I agree with that.

[Brent Billings]

It's set around Christmas, but it's not really like a Christmas theme. There are all sorts of themes that like fit into a Christmas season.

[Reed Dent]

I don't know. Do you consider. Do you consider angels a Christmas theme? Because, I mean, kind of angels are at the heart and soul of It's a Wonderful Life.

[Brent Billings]

Sure. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And the Christmas is. Is much more incidental to the goings on in Die Hard the. Than it is It's a Wonderful Life.

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah. Okay, hold. Hold that thought. Hold that thought. But I will just say there's the original black and white version, 1946. There have been apparently three different colorized versions of this movie. I would say don't watch any of the colorized versions. It is not meant to be seen that way.

[Reed Dent]

I don't think I've ever seen it that way.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I don't know if I have either. But the director, Frank Capra, tried to get into the colorized process and then there was the whole thing about the copyright thing. And they're like, oh, actually it turns out you don't have a copyright, so we're gonn keep you out of the colorization process. We're not going to give you any creative control. And he's like, well, forget that. And James Stewart also said it's terrible. So everybody's done their own colorized version of it, but none of them are like the official one. And all of the people who actually made the movie are against the colorized versions. I think that's a pretty reasonable argument. But also it was originally black and white, so let's just leave it like that. There's also, if you watch it on Hoopla, which is like one of those streaming services, you can get through your library sometimes that version is abridged and I would say you don't want to watch that either. So how did you watch it, Reid?

[Reed Dent]

I was watching it on Amazon and there were actually. I was surprised to see that there were two options, the unabridged and the full version. Or, sorry, the abridged and the unabridged. Or unabridged is full. And I was, I didn't know that that was a thing. And then I looked and there's actually. It's like a 20 minute time difference. I didn't. I don't think I realized that the original is kind of a long movie. It's like 2:15. Pushing 215.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reed Dent]

So I definitely watched the Unabridged and I would be curious to know what they actually, I could take a guess at what I think they should cut out. I'm. I'm curious to know what they cut out in the abridged version. But yeah, the, the unabridged black and white. That's what I watched on Amazon Prime.

[Brent Billings]

Yes, I also watched on Amazon. I will throw in the just watch link. So if you're looking for a way to see it, because it's probably going to be different in various countries, but let's throw the spoiler horn out there and get into this movie.

[Reed Dent]

I want to situate for everybody my experience watching it this time around. I have seen it many times since we were kids. We watched it all the time. It was always on. What station was that? Was it like TNT or tbs?

[Brent Billings]

Well, it depends. On what? What years are you talking about?

[Reed Dent]

The 1990s, early 90s or late 90s? All of the 90s.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know when exactly it happened, but apparently in 1974, 28 years after this movie came out, the copyright expired because somebody goofed up and forgot to renew it.

[Reed Dent]

That's something I would do.

[Brent Billings]

And so it was public, Dom. Yeah, it was public domain from 74 until sometime in the 90s when the studio figured out that they did have the copyright to the short story that it was based on, and they figured out a way to like, legally claw back their copyright on the movie. But it was. That's like, why it became so popular is because it was public domain and everybody filled their airwaves with it when they didn't have anything else to show.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, I just, I remember it being on a lot. That and A Christmas Story was always the like. I mean, that's been going on for a long time. The 24 hour marathon leading up to Christmas. But we're not here to talk about that. Anyway, I want to situate everybody, just my emotional experience with this movie in context because the weekend before. Right. So right after Thanksgiving, we have this amazing tradition with our friends in Kansas City. Shout out to the Bradleys, and we call it Christmas Kickoff Weekend. We get together, we just. Our two families, we hang out all weekend. We do fun, Christmasy things. Well, this particular weekend, some people were feeling kind of under the weather, so we decided to mostly hang around the Bradley household and just have a good time putting on a bunch of Hallmark Christmas movies. And in like a 48 hour period, I watched 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I watched. No. 3. Yeah, I watched six bad Christmas movies, beginning with the one that I got from you, Brent Billings, the Flight Before Christmas. Can you just tell me like one word or phrase to describe your emotional state when watching the Flight Before Christmas?

[Brent Billings]

Horrified.

[Reed Dent]

Horrified. We watched Hot Frosty. I don't even think we can talk about that on this podcast.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know.

[Reed Dent]

We watched A Biltmore Christmas, which, coming in at two stars on my letterboxd, was actually the highest rated Hallmark movie I've ever seen. It was surprisingly not trash.

[Brent Billings]

I straight it at two stars. Seriously, I never. I never even rate anything on Letterbox, but I rated the Flight Before Christmas because it was so bad that I felt like I had to.

[Reed Dent]

What did you. Did you give it a half start?

[Brent Billings]

No, I gave it a one star because I don't do half. I don't do Half stars. I'm not that kind of person.

[Reed Dent]

Well, I would encourage you to think about a half star. Just keeping that in your tool bag because you can really express your disdain for a movie with half star ratings. Because here's the thing. If you put zero stars, nobody knows. Like they think you just left it unrated. So half is the way to really drive it home. That. That was a terrible movie. But biltmore Christmas at 2 stars. We watched Holiday Touchdown, A Chief's Love Story, which makes me embarrassed as a Chiefs F and someone from Kansas City. I am embarrassed that this movie exists. And like I'm just. Did they in. Did. Did anybody ever do anything like that with the Patriots when they were in their Dynasty? I. It was horrible. And then we watched the Mary Gentleman, which is very weird premise and I would not recommend it for fa for families. There's nothing like, you know, inappropriate lead. Like it's. It. Well, I don't know what you consider inappropriate. It's not like rated R or anything, but it is about a woman who starts an all male review. R E V U E I think is how you spell it in that sense. Is that correct? Yes. An all male review that's slightly risque in order to save her parents failing bar. And it takes place. It's bad. And then we watched Christmas in Notting Hill, which is also bad. But it's about that. I was looking at the guy and I was like, where do I have seen this guy before? And I looked him up on letterboxd. It's the guy who played Peter Pevensey in the Chronicles of Narnia movies from like 20 years ago. And now he's all grown up and he's a soccer player that somebody falls in love with at Christmas time. It was also bad. Anyway, so I just want to tell people watching seven of these movies or six of these movies in a short period of time is a soul destroying experience. And so when I watched It's a Wonderful Life a week later or a week and a half later, it was life giving. It was rejuvenating. It was an amazing experience. Leanne and I watched it together. What was it? What was it? What was your situation while watching it? Brain. Were you watching alone? Did you watch with somebody? What was your emotional state going into? It was your soul. Had your soul been destroyed by Hallmark?

[Brent Billings]

I. I had only watched the one bad Christmas movie. I generally try to avoid this situation. I mean, my, my wife and her family, they are all about the bad Christmas movies and they're not even Necessarily. Like, sometimes they'll actually sit down and watch it closely, but sometimes it's just kind of on the background while they're making food or doing other stuff, wrapping presents, whatever. There's always a Christmas movie happening, but they're all terrible like that. And they put on the Flight Before Christmas. And I, you know, have expressed previously how much I love aviation. And so I'm just watching in horror as they're like showing these airplanes that shouldn't be there and the sets that they had, like, everything was. And so much of the movie was set in an airplane setting. So I was like, I feel like I'm gonna get quite a few scenes because mostly it's like a two second shot of an airplane taking off and then they're in the next place. And so it's like, well, that doesn't mean anything to me, but I actually sat down to watch this one and it was as bad as I would have expected.

[Reed Dent]

But, you know, thoughts and feelings on the airplane interior sequences in Home Alone.

[Brent Billings]

I don't even want to talk about it. Movies are notoriously bad at portraying the airline industry. But the Flight Before Christmas was just a peak. Peak. Ridiculous. So coming into It's a Wonderful Life, I watched it with my wife. I've seen it three times now in my adult life. This was the third time I've watched it. I don't actually love this movie, but as I was watching it for the first time in three or four years, I was thinking to myself, man, this dialogue is so good. The acting is so good. Like, so many, so many parts of this are like, why do I hate this movie? So it was a little bit refreshing in that way. But at the end, I still came back around to my original feelings of not really caring for this movie.

[Reed Dent]

Okay, well, okay, so hold on, let me.

[Brent Billings]

I didn't put that in my letterbox review because I didn't want to give it away before we recorded, but I.

[Reed Dent]

Saw that you said tba.

[Brent Billings]

Yes. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Let me, Let me ask you, let me ask you this, though. You're saying sometimes you said the word hate, but you also said don't care for. Where are we at on the actual disdain spectrum for this movie?

[Brent Billings]

I don't think I necessarily hate it.

[Reed Dent]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

I. I definitely hated it the first time. And I, I had definitely seen this as a kid at some point. You know, it was certainly on around the holidays, but I hadn't really, like sat down and watched it until about. I think it was 2015 was the first time I like, really Watched it that time. I did not enjoy it at all. Ended up seeing it again a few years later. Still didn't like it. Watched it this time, still didn't like it. But I think every time I see it, I appreciate more of it.

[Reed Dent]

Do you hate it because you find yourself really sympathizing with the Potter character? Are you?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, that guy just completely misunderstood. He's a. He's a saint of a man.

[Reed Dent]

And are you a real advocate for, like, absolute, unflinching profit motive at the expense of the poor and at the expense of the vulnerable? Is that what you're saying?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I think, you know, he rightfully took the $8,000, and I think he should have walked into the safe and.

[Reed Dent]

Taken everything else that is one of the most evil. Just courses of action. It's so mean. It's so terrible. Anyway, okay, but I. I need to dig in. I. I want to actually know why. Why, why, why is that?

[Brent Billings]

I don't like George Bailey. He is so strangely inconsistent. He's so petty and mean. In some of his scenes. In some scenes, he's like the sweetest man and the most caring person, the best member of their community. And then he turns around and is just like a monster.

[Reed Dent]

Do you mean, like. Do you mean like when he's had the worst day ever and he's lost the $8,000 and he's yelling at his kids? Is that what you mean?

[Brent Billings]

That there's part of that, but. And, well, okay, I get it in some senses. But also, like, why is he taking it out on them? And he never explains the situation to his children.

[Reed Dent]

Well.

[Brent Billings]

And his wife.

[Reed Dent]

Well, okay, but at this point, like, the idea of, like, I don't know how we want to call this, of killing himself, of suicide, that is already in his mind. Like, that's already kind of a course of action that he's somewhat set on because in the meeting that he has with Potter before. Before that, and he's like, oh, you're worth more dead than alive. And there's that moment where it lingers on him, and it's. Okay, now he's kind of thought about this. Like, I get that it would be a. A rational and the. The right thing to do, you know, in terms of, like, hey, this is what happened at work. We're in a lot of trouble. I get that. But I think it's also like a. A real possible course of action and reaction that he finds himself suddenly, like, everything is falling apart. He's completely desperate, and he's so angry. Okay. Think about the George Bailey character, like, all of his life from, from the beginning, when we first meet him, saving his brother and all the way through. George is somebody who has ambition. He has, like, he's, he wants to travel the world, he wants to see all the things. He wants to build big things and do important things. But at all of these junctures where that course of action is about to take off, something happens and George makes the decision to stay and help the people at great expense to himself. Right?

[Brent Billings]

Indeed.

[Reed Dent]

And I think the, the, the emotional thrust of like his complete breakdown at the, at that critical scene when he's getting ready to jump off the bridge and what leads up to that is like, he's just had enough.

[Brent Billings]

Even in his suicide. Like, he's worth more dead than alive. Like, he's, he's still taking care of the community in that action or he thinks he is in taking that action.

[Reed Dent]

Sure. Yeah. No, he's, he's doing it. Yeah. For the sake of his family and for the Building and Loan. So. Yeah. And I think it's just like, this is a man that life has not treated very fairly in many instances, and now he is very angry about that. Like, he is. He's ready to. Well, he's ready to end it, obviously, but there's like a great sense of injustice that's like, come on, man. Like, I've tried to help everybody and now my uncle who's like this well meaning, but like, I think low key, kind of an alcoholic character and just like kind of hair brain, doesn't mean to, but like, he's ruining my entire life and I couldn't possibly have done more for everybody. And this is so unfair. And so, yeah, like, I'm not saying anybody should yell at their kids, but it makes sense to me that that's the reaction. You're yell at your kids, you're yelling at your wife, you're storming out of the house. Like, that all makes sense to me. I wouldn't call that inconsistent. I would call that like the, the sort of. I don't know. That's the, that, that's the crux. That's the, that's the climax. That's the turning point. Yeah, that's, that's how I see it. But are there, are there other places where you see him being, like, petty or mean to people or inconsistent?

[Brent Billings]

When he goes to Mary's house.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, yes.

[Brent Billings]

Okay. So wandering around on the street, I'm like, what is going on, dude? Why are you being such a jerk?

[Reed Dent]

It's true. Okay. So, yeah, I'm glad you brought up that scene. What. Actually, here's. Here's. Here's one thing that I think consistently the movie just does terrible with, and that is anytime George has to kiss anybody, particularly when he kisses Mary, but then there's a scene where he's also kissing his kids. He's just aggressive. He's a very. He's a very violent kisser. Like, that doesn't look comfortable or enjoyable for anybody. George, like, especially that scene where he's with Mary and they're like, yeah, it is. You are right. That. That scene, emotionally, like, the tone earlier.

[Brent Billings]

In that scene when her mom is like, what's going on down there? And she's like, he's making violent love to me, mother. And I'm like, that is, first of all, Mary's character of, like, surprised that she would say that because she's just so sweet and innocent seeming.

[Reed Dent]

No, she's. She's, like, kind of snarky. She's a little. Yeah, she's a little bit playful.

[Brent Billings]

That was the. That was the one where it's like, oh, my gosh. She's like. She's got a.

[Reed Dent]

She's.

[Brent Billings]

She's packing a punch.

[Reed Dent]

I thought that. I love that.

[Brent Billings]

I loved it, too. But then later when they are kissing, he's, like, very violent.

[Reed Dent]

He really wasn't even like, you listen to me, I'm not going to. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not going to this and I'm not going to that. And once again, the subject is about, like, how he doesn't want to live in the small town. Like, there is always this seed of kind of. There's. It's like. It's like resentment, right, that he's stuck there because of circumstances that are out of his control. And yet, like, at the same time, I think both things can be true. That he is stuck there against his will. And also. And there are moments where the emotion of that really comes out. The resentment comes out. And yet he still chooses to, like, do right with the situation that he's in. He uses the Building and Loan to help people get homes who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford homes because Potter would drive them into the slums and raise up the rent and all that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? So I. But I do think. Yeah, that. That. That is, like, probably the weirdest scene to me is that particular moment where and he really is a jerk to her. Yeah, I mean, you're right about that. Like, he comes in and he's like. Because what is it? What has just happened? His. Oh, oh. I think the scene right be okay. You might need to cut out all the stuff that I said for the last three minutes. Yeah, I think, I think what has just happened is the board meeting. He's. And he's gone to the board meeting.

[Brent Billings]

Oh. And they, they're gonna ruin everything and so he has to stick around.

[Reed Dent]

But they'll keep the Building and Loan afloat if George agrees to come on as the president.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Reed Dent]

And that has happened. And so of course he does it because he doesn't want the building alone to go under because if it does, then Potter ruins the town. But that means that he's got to cancel his plans. And has Harry also just come home for. With his, with his wife? Maybe. Yeah, I think Harry's just come home with his wife and then they're having the party at his mom's house and he leaves and he's upset.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Because Harry was supposed to come back and take over.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, right.

[Brent Billings]

But then he gets, he gets married and he gets the job offer.

[Reed Dent]

Yep. At her father's. At his father in law's plant doing research of something.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah. So. So that's why he is upset. And I just. That's the defining tension between, in, in the. It's not inconsistent. This is just the defining tension. At the root of George Bailey is that he is an ambitious person who has desires and plans and hopes to go do big things and see, see the world but, but can't ever share.

[Brent Billings]

It with anybody else. Like he could, he could explain that to Mary when he comes over. She's like what are you doing? Like come inside. And he's like ah, sorry, I'm just, I'm not having a great day. I just found out. And he never shares any of this stuff with anybody.

[Reed Dent]

Maybe, I mean that might, I think that's also maybe part of the. I'm just imagining like if there were scenes like that where he was explaining if, if that feels, if he ends up feeling kind of, I don't know, like whiny or complainy or.

[Brent Billings]

That's true.

[Reed Dent]

Like you would, you don't want to make him seem self righteous. I think that's one of the things about like he's, and I actually think he's a pretty great hero character because he's not completely perfect and virtuous. Right. Where he just like does everything joyfully without any kind of like sense of being upset or anything like that.

[Brent Billings]

And the movie definitely compresses all of the time.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

So the. The times that he, you know, is in that joyful state, it's just kind of like montage stuff. And then we focus on the bad times. So that's fair.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah. So he's. He's somebody who. But he's. He's a hero who does the right thing. But you also, as the audience, see that it's, like, pitted against these desires to do other things. But he's not, like. I think he's not complaining about it because that might. I don't know, that might be too. Too much. Like, he might become unsympathetic at that point if he's waxing about how unjust everything is to him. And I kind of like how you never get that speech about how it's also unfair. And instead what you get is this explosive night where he, like, is horrible to everybody and decides that he would be better, like, dead than alive. But as you pointed out, there's still, like, the kind of somewhat, I guess, benevolent motive there. That's like, well, at least somebody will get something out of me because of my insurance policy. You know what I mean?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And I. You know, looking back to the 40s, it's like, I know my grandpa came back from World War II, and he never talked about the war, so that.

[Reed Dent]

Well, but George didn't go to the war.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I know he didn't go to the war, but I'm just saying, like, that was. The general culture is you just don't talk about your problems necessarily. So I just. But I just don't feel uncomfortable watching it, even though I sort of understand it in some ways.

[Reed Dent]

Well, yeah, I mean, there is, like, an. He does have an aggression at times, I think. Also, like, you know, there's the Mr. Gower scene at the beginning where Mr. Gower is hitting him in the back room of the drugstore. And I actually. That took. I remember being a kid and, like, being kind of scared at that scene, especially when his ear starts bleeding, you know.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And yet, like, he and I. He. He as a teenager, at that point, a young teenager is expressing, like, this strange capacity for compassion.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And he's like, you didn't mean to. You know, like, you were. You're upset because you just found out you didn't mean to. And I didn't want you to go to prison and kill somebody accidentally with the poison. And it's this, like, extraordinary ability to be compassionate. And I was like, well, at the.

[Brent Billings]

Same moment his ears are bleeding out. That is. It is really remarkable.

[Reed Dent]

But I also wonder, like, does this scene play in 2024? You know, like the. Not just the abuse of it, but also, like, is it the victim sympathizing too much with his abuser? You know, like, is it. I didn't know how that would play to some people.

[Brent Billings]

Well, and that scene would have been set in, like, the teens or the twenties. The nineteen teens or twenties.

[Reed Dent]

Correct. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

So that would have been even older. You know, sensibilities. So.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah. So what do you like? Okay, that all makes sense. I get that, like, George Bailey is not always the most. He doesn't always do likable things. I get that. What about, though, when you. When it comes to your feelings about this movie, when it comes to the end, Right. When especially. And I. I was talking to Derek about this, and he had watched it recently, too, and he said, oh, I think in my imagination, my memory from when I'd seen a long time ago, that the whole bit about him experiencing the world as if he had never been born, he thought that that was most of the movie, when actually it's not like it's. It's really just the kind of final part of the final act. And so. But that is, I think, what the movie is kind of most famous for is George getting to experience a world in which he was never born and see the negative effects of it. And then, of course, there's the. He. He comes back and he goes to the. His house and they have the party and everybody brings in the money, you know, and it's like the whole community now is giving back to this man who has just given to them over and over and over again. What's your. What's your reaction to that? What's your experience of that scene?

[Brent Billings]

I. So. So the. The whole, like, flashback or not flashback, the alternate reality situation, and they end up thinking that he's insane because he's talking about, you know, like, oh, I know you, and I know this. And they're like, what are you talking about? They all think he's insane. They want to put him in an asylum or whatever. I think they say that at some point. I feel like everybody would say that in the other part. Like, when it's. When he comes back to reality, he's going. He's like, oh, you wonderful building alone. You wonderful tree, wonderful. Like, all this stuff. And, like, what is he. What is he talking about? He never explains himself yet again.

[Reed Dent]

What do you mean, Brent? This is a man who has woken up to the mystery and wonder of his own Life.

[Brent Billings]

I know, but everything.

[Reed Dent]

Everything is like. Is full of that same mystery and wonder. For him, the building alone, the tree, the. Whatever the things are, and all of that is beautiful.

[Brent Billings]

But, like, he. He goes home and he's, like, yelling at his kids and storming off, and then he comes back and he's, like, elated, and he never explains what's going on. And I also don't understand how his wife. His wife is the one who actually goes and gets all the money and saves the day. She's the. She's the actual savior. Like, he woke up to it.

[Reed Dent]

Mary is a hero. You're never gonna get me to say anything bad about Mary. Mary is awesome.

[Brent Billings]

Mary's amazing.

[Reed Dent]

But also, side note, Donna Reed and I have the same birthday.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, beautiful.

[Reed Dent]

I found that out through letterboxd. We have the same birthday and the.

[Brent Billings]

Same name, of course.

[Reed Dent]

Yes, exactly.

[Brent Billings]

But she, like, she saves the day. But how does she even know that he needs the money? Like, I guess.

[Reed Dent]

Well, she talks to. No, I think she talks to. She talked. I think it even says. Right. She talks to Uncle Billy.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, does she?

[Reed Dent]

And he mentions that he lost. I. I think she. He. She. He tells her that he lost the money.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Reed Dent]

And then I'm sure that at that point. And I think that's not. Like, they don't make a huge deal about that. Like, that's. That's something that she says. But then you can imagine if she found that out from Uncle Billy, then she can put everything together, like, oh, this is why he's so upset.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And so then when he comes back, like, I would say that moment when he comes back into the house, that's not the time to explain. Like, maybe the next day they sit down and have a conversation. But at this point, she's just. It's kind of like in the prodigal son story, right? When the son comes back, the dad just hugs him and throws a party.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And he'll hear, what about what the son's been doing over on the other side? Like, he'll hear about that some other time. But for now, he's just literally was my husband who was dead, and now he is alive. So let's have a party. Oh, I didn't realize it was going to be so prodigal son up in here.

[Brent Billings]

I was. I was gonna ask. I was about to ask, how do you tie this in? Why are we talking about this movie on the Baymo podcast? There are very few religious elements to this movie. I mean, there are the angels, but.

[Reed Dent]

It'S like, okay, well, except for love and grace and charity.

[Brent Billings]

Well, sure, yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And justice for the poor and all of those important. Yeah. But yes, every time a bell, an.

[Brent Billings]

Angel gets its wings. Where is that in the Bible? Read, give me a passage.

[Reed Dent]

Well, every time. The biblical version is every time the bell rings, an angel gets like another set of eyes on its body looking in every direction. Another. Another gyroscopic wheel added to the weird contraption or something like that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, there you go.

[Reed Dent]

But I think that'd be a little bit too wordy for the script. So they just went with wings.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Reed Dent]

I also don't know where it is in the Bible that when somebody dies, they become like a level one entry angel and they have to earn their way.

[Brent Billings]

Angel. Angel. Second class.

[Reed Dent]

Is he second class? That's what you start as, a second class and then you work your way up by getting.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reed Dent]

So I don't think any of that is necessarily biblical. However, I do think that there is a. A very strong. I think the, the. A very strong theme running through this, of concerned for the vulnerable and the poor and the marginalized. I mean, when I think about what is the big difference between Potter and George Bailey? Also, what is Potter's first name?

[Brent Billings]

I don't know if we. I don't know if we know, do we?

[Reed Dent]

I'm sure they say it at some point. Mr. Potter. Henry F. Potter. Henry Potter.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, yeah. Oh, he does have like a plaque or something on the wall.

[Reed Dent]

He also has lots of portraits of himself hanging around. Yeah. Also low key when the scene, by the way, like one of my favorite sorts of set design pieces is when George goes in to Potter's office and Potter is offering him the job. Because Potter realizes that he's never going to beat Potter. He's never going to be able to just run him out of business. So he's going to try to seduce him and hire him instead when he. I'd never noticed this before, but George is sitting across the desk from him and there's like this bejeweled, glittering skull sitting on the desk, like right in front of George. And so if you're Potter, the skull is facing you, you know, and it's just this very macabre little detail that's deathly. And then also in the background when it shows them from the side. So when the camera has Potter on the left side of the desk and Bailey on the right, and they're looking at each other across the desk, behind them, between them, there is a Bust of Napole and the, the bust of Napoleon is. They have it situate in, in the, in the, the bust, the head is kind of like angled down, like Napoleon is looking down at something. And they have it angled where it looks like Napoleon is, like, grimacing down, looking at George Bailey and he's over Potter's shoulder. And so just the, the imagery is rich there. And I think, I don't, I don't always think of It's a Wonderful Life as a very, like, artistic movie. I think of it as a great, a great plot and a great theme, but, like, the artistry is not necessarily there for me, except for those were some of the elements that I noticed. Anyway, back to Potter and George. What is the big difference between them? And I think there's an important conversation that they have. And it's. It's earlier than that scene I just talked about. And Potter is chastising George Bailey for his bad business practices that the, the people that he. He gives loans to in a way that it's going to take them forever to pay back and he's not going to make any money off of it. And Potter's kind of view of human beings is that to me, it seems like he thinks that decency, decency and dignity are like, earned things and you have to claw your way to. And so those who are already prosperous, they have dignity and decency and everybody else can go live in a slum and work their way out of it. But George's view is, no, no, no. Once they have those basic things taken care of, if they have a decent home, if they have just the dignity of, you know, shelter and an affordable mortgage, basically, then that will empower or enable them to go out and become, like, to realize their potential. You know, that dignity and decency is something that is inherent to the person. And George just sees, well, if I, if I don't pursue profit at all costs, I give all of these people the possibility to realize this potential that they have. And so I don't know if I think about it, like, there are probably different kinds of. There are maybe some subconscious or subterranean kinds of theological convictions at work here, or anthropological ones. What does it mean to be a person? What's the value of a person and the regard for the poor and the needy and the vulnerable? Like, I think George well, represents a much more biblical view of those people, of those situations. And Potter just is, you know, a profiteering demon, fear warmonger, you know, or as. As. As George calls him. He is a warped. Is it Warped, twisted old man or something like that.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, yeah, he said. Oh, well, no, I wrote down a quote from Peter Bailey, Paul Bailey.

[Reed Dent]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

George's dad talking about Mr. Potter. He says he's sick in his mind. Sick in his soul, if he has one.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, yeah. So his soulless. Like what the Hallmark movies did to me.

[Brent Billings]

I mean, the fact that Mr. Potter could find the $8,000 in his rolled up paper and then proceed to watch all of the goings on and know exactly where that money came from and never, never an inkling that he might return it or cut a deal or take, you know, take even a, you know, a finder's fee or anything like that. Like he just takes the whole thing. And by the way, so I wasn't even looking for this, but I found an episode of Planet Money on NPR about this movie. And they were talking about the economics of this. Apparently this is a movie that gets shown in economics classes all the time, which is like. Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, interesting.

[Brent Billings]

There's a lot there for that theme. But they were doing something that I love to do when I watch old movies and that's pull up the inflation calculator and figure out what this money is in today's money.

[Reed Dent]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Brent Billings]

The $8,000 is about $117,000.

[Reed Dent]

That's a lot of. That's a lot of cash.

[Brent Billings]

If that's just straight cash, pretty good chunk of cash. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And to, especially for a small business.

[Brent Billings]

And to have Uncle Billy be the one transferring this money, it's just insane. Yeah, but George's wish for a million dollars. I wish I had a million dollars. That would be about $15 million today. Hot dog in the bank run when everybody's asking. That's about $293, which actually seems like a pretty reasonable amount of money to like. Yeah, that'll get me through a couple of weeks. Like, sure, that'll get the essentials.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, maybe a week.

[Brent Billings]

And then the lady is like, I can get by with 1750. That's 257. So it's like $35 less. And George is. I'm surprised George didn't violently kiss her in the bank.

[Reed Dent]

Gosh. Well. And then there's the one guy who's like, I'll take $242. Okay, but how much can you get by with $242? That guy, he was, he was not a very nice fellow.

[Brent Billings]

No, no. But, yeah, I just, I, I love to do that with the money and The. The offer. So the offer of 20. $20,000 a year that Bailey offered him or that. That Potter offered him as a job, that's like $300,000 a year.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, so that's real.

[Brent Billings]

Definitely tough to turn down. And it's. You know, they. They have a nice house and they have a servant, even. They don't actually say where this movie is set. Presumably in New York, I guess, because they're talking about, like, Rochester and Bedford Falls. Yeah, well, yeah, Bedford Falls, but not a real. Not a real city. Yeah, but presumably somewhere in the New York area, at least. New England. So still, like, a sign of wealth, for sure. So it's not like they're running the building loan and they're, like, getting by on scraps. They're still doing okay, and yet he's still able to be incredibly generous and help his community prosper. And I wanted to ask you about this. So the way they portray his alternate reality is that everything went wrong. There was literally nothing good. Nobody stepped up to do anything. You know, everybody died because you weren't there to save them. Like, everything went wrong. Which seems maybe a little extreme. It's like, okay, if George wasn't there, it seems like somebody else would have been, like, somewhat kind in some way, but everything goes wrong. So does this movie portray George as, like, a messiah figure, do you think?

[Reed Dent]

Well, first of all, let's not lean too heavily into, like, the realism. We're not trying to force this movie into realism.

[Brent Billings]

You mean angels aren't light pulsating galaxies?

[Reed Dent]

I think that it's maybe more of, like a David and Goliath type figure. You know, where Potter is Goliath, like, instilling fear in the hearts of everyone and ready to come with his technological prowess and great physical might and just wipe everything out. And that George is, like, the one person who's in a position to actually be able to stop him by virtue of the fact that, like, the build. Building and Loan is in the real estate business and so is Potter's company. And they're just two extremely opposed value sets. So I think. I mean, yeah, that's. I. I don't know that I would call it messianic or not. I mean, I think I just. Yeah, it feels more like the David and Goliath. Here's the small guy with a lot of heart who does not fear Potter. And I think that's a big thing because I. In the. The board meeting. The board meeting scene, you get a sense that, like, these other board members, whoever they are, are Kind of wrapped around Potter's finger and that he just does. He would. He would do as he wanted to do with those particular people. But there's a Bailey family trait that comes from his dad that then goes into George. That is where we don't fear him, even if we don't have as much. Like, we're gonna stand up to him with whatever we have and the tough. And I think what's. Again, what's interesting to me about George, like, we don't know anything about Paul Bailey and whatever his dreams were. Like, maybe his dream was to do the Building and Loan, but George, we know, like, he wanted to. He wanted to get out and, like, see the world. And even like Potter is playing on those ambitions and desires when he offers him the job. Talking about trips to Europe and all that kind of stuff.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. George was carrying around pamphlets of, like, every continent at various points.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Like, he. He dreamed of the whole world.

[Reed Dent]

The whole world. I mean, the first time you meet him, Jimmy Stewart, he's getting a giant piece of luggage that he wants to put stickers all over from all the places he's going to go.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

And so you have that desire at odds with the. I guess the impulse to be a man of the people and do what he can to protect them from Potter's, you know, mighty sword, so to speak. So I. That's what I would say David and Goliath, more than Jesus, but.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I think you have made me appreciate the movie even more. I still don't know if I can quite get over my misgivings about George.

[Reed Dent]

But here's what you need to do. Go watch seven Hallmark movies in two days and then watch It's a Wonderful Life and report back.

[Brent Billings]

If I watched seven Hallmark movies in two days, I would be the one at the bridge.

[Reed Dent]

I'll be your Clarence. I'll jump in ahead of time. Also, just weird, but this is a little bit of, like, a weird detail. Question is that George is gonna jump into the river and then Clarence jumps in from heaven and George jumps in to save him. So if George had just gone in by himself, I guess. What. What's the. He's just gonna kind of give up and. And drown.

[Brent Billings]

Would have just let the water carry him away, I guess.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, but that. He's jumping into the exact same situation. But now with this. And by the way, speaking of, you know, bookending parallelisms, whatever. The first scene we meet young George Bailey is. He's saving his brother from drowning in freezing water. And then the, The. The Turning point of the movie is him jumping in these freezing waters to save Clarence. And so it seems like there is, despite George's many, you know, aggressions and aggressive kisses, etc. Didn't know that was ever going to be a phrase I was saying on the Bama podcast. But despite all of that, it is like an instinct for him. Yeah, I think, too. And so rough around the edges. Sure. But deep down, like, his heart is good and it's just his instinct to help somebody who is in danger, who is vulnerable. And that is something that you're not going to find in Holiday Touchdown. A Chief's Love Story.

[Brent Billings]

Gosh, those poor souls who have seen.

[Reed Dent]

That movie, that's me and everybody in Kansas City.

[Brent Billings]

I do love the. I do love that idea of Clarence. Like, Clarence clearly knew George well because he didn't hesitate to jump in. And he knew that that would save George because George would save him. And that was all totally believable.

[Reed Dent]

Yeah, totally.

[Brent Billings]

The everything in the movie, like, absolutely set that up and made it 100% like, yes, that is exactly what somebody should do. That's exactly how he would respond. All of that was perfect. So, so much to like about this movie, for sure.

[Reed Dent]

So much. Including the big collective communal sort of message at the end when all the people in the town come to save him. To my brother George, the richest man in town. It's one of my favorite lines.

[Brent Billings]

It is great. And I also love just the. The general culture of, like, dancing where George and Mary are like, yeah, I'm not very good at dancing. I'm not either. And then they proceed to do what they do on the dance floor. Yeah, it's like, that's not good at dancing. Well, maybe it was until the 40s.

[Reed Dent]

And we didn't talk about Mary enough. Like, I know we're wrapping up, but just Donna Reid is fantastic in this movie. And I think you're dead right. It takes a certain resilience to be the wife to a husband like that. And what you pointed out that I think often goes overlooked, that she is kind of the savior of the Building and Loan in the end because she goes out and gets all the people to bring the money. But she's just a fantastic, strong, witty kind of character. And also just the way that. Just the way that she looks at and loves George, you know, is like, so. It's just. It's so warm and so kind and so well played by her.

[Brent Billings]

The thoughtfulness of how she set up the old broken down house for their honeymoon thing and got everybody to like, set up those. Like, what an incredible gesture. And I was half afraid where he was gonna be, like, oh, this is. How could you do this? Like, this is. You're just spitting in my dreams. And, like. But he actually appreciated it, which was great.

[Reed Dent]

Well, yeah. And, I mean, that has something in common with the end of the movie. Like, when George is overwhelmed by yet again dreams falling apart, Mary is the one who's like, yeah, but there's a possibility. There's an opportunity here. There's potential here, and I'm gonna make something out of it. And, yeah, she's. Yeah, she's just phenomenal. Phenomenal character, phenomenal hero in the movie. Way to go, Donna Reed. Born January 27th, just like me.

[Brent Billings]

Well, happy birthday to you. Coming up, I guess, in a month now. So. Perfect.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

I was gonna. I was gonna make a chief's joke, but I can't do it.

[Reed Dent]

Well, we'll be playing for the AFC Championship that weekend, so it'll be great. That's. This is one of the great parts about the way the NFL schedule. What it's turned into with 17 games, is that the AFC Championship is now always right around my birthday. And with the Chiefs being in it and winning all the time, it's like a great birthday present every year.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So. So Kansas City without the Chiefs winning is Pottersville, and with them winning, it's Bedford Falls.

[Reed Dent]

You bet. Patrick Mahomes is the George Bailey of Kansas City, saving us from the tyranny of I don't know what.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, well, that will do it for this episode. Reid, I enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and doing your best to convince me that I should love this movie, and I almost do. I almost do.

[Reed Dent]

You will next year.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. My wife is actually a little upset because we're recording this on the 12th. We got to record this ahead of time because we're. We're gonna be on Christmas break. We can't be recording over Christmas itself, but our local movie theater downtown plays this movie every year, and my wife loves going to that because everybody's there. They all. You know, everybody who goes loves the movie. And it's just kind of a local tradition where the town comes together and enjoys this thing together. And I usually don't go, as you can imagine. But maybe.

[Reed Dent]

Okay, Scrooge.

[Brent Billings]

Maybe I'll. I know. I really. I really am a scrooge, and it's all Marty's fault. Marty told me about all of the pagan things about Christmas, and I already didn't love Christmas, but Then I was like, all right, now I'm. And Marty regrets that. And you gotta.

[Reed Dent]

You gotta resist. Resist Marty's Scrooge biblically informed ways and just let yourself, pagan or not, go with the season. It's a great time to be alive.

[Brent Billings]

See, I already had the heart of the scrooge, and Marty. Marty just gave me permission to, you know, be a little more open about it, so. But I think he. I think he would not do the same thing today. So. No, it's all my fault. I take personal responsibility for it.

[Reed Dent]

Merry Christmas. Keep it in your heart all year long. By the time you're 40 like me, you might. You might love Christmas just as much as I have come to love it. Ashley Ann, about how I was, you know, earlier on, because I was also like, nah, nah, nah. But okay, now I. I love it. It's great. She told me this is my most Christmasiest year yet. So.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Reed Dent]

Doing well.

[Brent Billings]

I know that I won't get my wings with that attitude.

[Reed Dent]

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Brent Billings]

All right, well, you can find more details about our [e-mail] this is not a normal episode for us, but check out some of the other stuff we do. It's pretty great. We have a good time and Merry Christmas, you wonderful Bama listeners.

[Reed Dent]

We'll talk to you again soon. Soon. What's the spoiler horn sound like?

[Brent Billings]

It's a foghorn. Yep.

[Reed Dent]

Is that pretty close?

[Brent Billings]

I mean, it's more of a continuous tone.

[Reed Dent]

Spoiler. Spoiler.

[Brent Billings]

Boom.

[Reed Dent]

Okay. I just want to. I want to zoom.

[Brent Billings]

Just ask me if I'm playing music. It's an actual sound effect, so this won't be in there.

[Reed Dent]

I think you should keep mine. Okay. What were we saying? Something about football games and it being. Oh, you were going to check score a me.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Okay. Are you familiar with scoregami?

[Reed Dent]

No.

[Brent Billings]

Score Gummy is, you know, they track the final score of every NFL game in history. And not just NFL. It goes back to the AFL era, like every professional football game in history. And so there's a score a me. When a final score is unique. It's never happened before.

[Reed Dent]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

And I knew that the Chiefs latest two games ending in 19 to 17. I was like, I feel like that's kind of a weird score. I didn't think it was that unique. Turns out that has happened 59 times.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, I see.

[Brent Billings]

But I feel like it's pretty unusual for two games to end at that same score. And also the fact that, you know, that's the same final score. Whether they're playing the 2 and 9 Raiders or the 8 and 4 Chargers.

[Reed Dent]

Yep. You know, this is listening. I listen to a lot of football talk, and this is the eternal question, are the Chiefs getting lucky? But certainly if you do it this many games in a row, it's not luck. It's part of the plan, like, or it's just. It's a skill, like, to be able to win and close games as a skill.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

There's the possibility that we are not trying to blow out teams because you don't want to give away everything before the playoffs.

[Brent Billings]

Sure.

[Reed Dent]

There is also just the possibility that, you know, we have. I mean, we've had injury problems. We have. It's. It's really hard to be good on every side of the ball at the same time, to be good at offense, defense, and special teams all at the same. And so what you. What you do is you're trying to balance your strengths and compliment, you know, each side of the ball as much as you can. We've been playing, like, a lot more time of possession this season and a lot less explosive plays. Like, we don't have a lot of plays that go 20 yards downfield or anything like that. We're holding onto the ball longer, making our defense work less to keep them fresh. I mean, it's like, I know there's. I think there are layers to strategizing an NFL game that we, the public, are entirely unaware of that, like, at the highest level, coaches understand, like, there is. There are layers to the game that we just don't know or think about and that are invisible. And we only think in the moment, like, oh, gosh, why'd he call that play on third and two? You know, that was dumb. Why did he try to throw it 18 yards downfield on a third and two? Just run the ball and get the first down? And so this is actually something that happened the other week that almost lost us the Raiders game. And then it begs the question, did Andy Reid, one of the greatest NFL coaches of all time, just suddenly forget how to coach a football team? Or is it possible that there are things going on that he. That he has in mind where he's willing to, like, like, accept a, you know, a failed result on the play because it is good strategically for other reasons that we don't understand? And I'm perfectly willing to accept all of that. I am also willing to accept it, especially in the chief's case, because the proof is in the pudding. Like, we are consistently winning. We have back to back super bowl titles, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So until somebody proves them wrong or proves that they're lucky or don't know how to do it, then I just think that that's. That narrative is nonsense.

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think about how little I think about football and how much more I feel like, you know about football. And I know you think about football a lot, but like, you have a life, you have a family, you have a job, you have all this other stuff. Like how much could you be thinking about this versus Andy Reid? It is literally the only thing he does correct. Like, of course they're gonna have thoughts and ideas and stuff that we don't have, so. Sure.

[Reed Dent]

I think we also tend to think of football players as like just machines, not human beings. Where like we expect them to be tireless and they should be perform. Like the fact that, you know, somebody had a fight with their wife off the field the day before or the fact that their kid was sick and kept them up all night. Like, we don't think about those kind of things, you know, and they don't.

[Brent Billings]

Tell us those kinds of things.

[Reed Dent]

No, they definitely don't. That's part of the professionalism, you know, you don't, you don't blame those kind of things, but there's no way that, that, that doesn't affect you or just the sheer unrelenting week after week. Like it takes a toll, which is. This is actually one of the, the possible reasons that I think Travis Kelce has not had like an incredible year, but he's like 35 now. And I. My guess is that like, he probably knows that he only has so much in the tank with a 35 year old body and that he's not going to take the risks and expend all of that for a game in October or November when he. And then risk not being able to do that when it comes time when you really need it in January. So I just. Yeah, those are things that we often don't think about. Anyway. Let's talk about Christmas movies now.

[Brent Billings]

Are we doing this pre. Are we doing this pre. Whatever.

[Reed Dent]

Football talk.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I got to put the football talk at the end.

[Reed Dent]

No, you don't have to. This is not football talk that's worth putting on there. Especially if, especially if Marty's not here for me to just. I actually don't know if I would roast him mercilessly right now.

[Brent Billings]

You can't kick somebody when they're down.

[Reed Dent]

No. Well, actually, and Marty's. He doesn't need me to like, we Talk about this offline a lot. And the thing is, the Bengals, by the way, they have an amazing offensive football team. Like they, Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase are having career years. They're playing phenomenally, they're scoring a lot of points. They're just falling apart everywhere else, like on defense and special teams. And so that is making it really hard for them to. So it's, it's kind of funny because Joe Burrow is like the stat leader in several major categories across the NFL and yet they've only won five games. But not all of that is under his control anyway. So I think Marty is. I think Marty just feels very frustrated and disappointed. Also. I know that if I brought it up to Marty right now in this context, he would immediately fire back and start telling me about how the Chiefs are a middling team that's an imposter and barely wins and blah, blah, blah.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I will say this. You know, we're. They're 12 and one right now. There's still four games left in the regular season, so who knows what's going to happen. But so far, 10 of their 12 wins have come at a touchdown or less. If they go on to win the Super Bowl.

[Reed Dent]

Longest streak in NFL history, by the way. Oh, going back to last season, I think we have had not all of.

[Brent Billings]

The wins are that. That less. You know, they beat the 29ers by.

[Reed Dent]

10, but games that have been one score, we have not lost a one score game.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, I see.

[Reed Dent]

We've lost two. We've lost two score games. Like the Bills is the one loss we have.

[Brent Billings]

That was a two score points. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

So we've lost but every one score game that we've had in like the last 17 games or something. Okay, one, all of them.

[Brent Billings]

Well, I'm just thinking the point differential that they're working with right now, if they go on to win the Super Bowl, I would bet that they are the super bowl winning team that has the lowest point differential of any team in super bowl history.

[Reed Dent]

Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, a team of our record, like we have historically low point differential. Luckily, you know, at the end of the day, the stat that matters is the one that's measured with the letter, not. Not the one that's the points. But I mean, would I like to be scoring a lot more points? Sure. Heck yeah, I would.

[Brent Billings]

Sure.

[Reed Dent]

But would I rather have a game be repeatedly 19 to 17 and a win as opposed to like 44 to 50 and a loss? Well, of course. Like, I don't want to. As. As Nick Wright said, he's like, people talk about the bills there. People will give the Bills more credit for being beautiful in a defeat than they will give to the Chiefs for being ugly and a loss.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, sure.

[Reed Dent]

Anyway, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas, you filthy animals.

[Brent Billings]

That's the wrong movie. Movie.

[Reed Dent]

Also. Also, I just. I just have a loose kind of, you know, sort of.

[Brent Billings]

Merry Christmas, you beautiful Kansas City Chiefs. Yeah.

[Reed Dent]

Heck, yeah. Let's talk about holiday touchdown.