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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign. This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are joined by special guest Brandt Hansen, author, nationally syndicated radio host, and advocate for healing children through CURE International. That's your professional intro, Brandt. Welcome to the show.
- [00:23]
Brant Hansen
Thank you. I'm so honored to join you guys. Big time.
- [00:26]
Brent Billings
This is the episode I've been waiting for because of the collision between Brandt and Brent and Brent and Brandt. And my inbox right now is so confusing. I cannot wait to get past today because I've got Brants and Brents wandering all over, so everybody else can be as confused as we are. It'll be great.
- [00:43]
Brant Hansen
I'm jealous of Brent.
- [00:44]
Brent Billings
His.
- [00:45]
Brant Hansen
His life is simpler. Like, nobody thinks Branch. Well, just. They think I'm Brent. I was like, I wish I was just Brent.
- [00:51]
Brent Billings
You know, there is like a gradient scale. It starts with Brett, which is what everybody calls Brent whenever I'm. And then it goes to Brent, and then it's Brent. So you are like three notches down the Brett Brandt. Yeah.
- [01:04]
Marty Solomon
When my wife is mad at me, she actually calls me something more like Branch. She's like Brant. So excellent. It is a reality in my house a little bit, but yeah. So that was your professional bio that you have on your website. I thought about using the real bio. Brant Hanson has no idea what he's doing. He keeps showing up and people keep asking him to do stuff and he keeps saying yes. So thank you for saying yes to us, I guess.
- [01:32]
Brant Hansen
Thanks. Yeah. And the other thing about not knowing what I'm doing is absolutely true. I really don't. I really don't. People ask you for advice on how do you do this or that. I'm just trying to do today's thing and then see what happens. But it's working out. That's what's so awesome about it. It's really working out.
- [01:49]
Marty Solomon
Well, your bio is extensive. You have done many, many things. So maybe you can throw in a few extra details about yourself. Personal things, hobbies, whatever you want to say, whatever people need to know. I don't know how much our audience really needs to know who you are. I feel like most of them already do, but. Yeah.
- [02:08]
Brant Hansen
Well, okay, so I like music. I play in an 80s 90s cover band here just for fun. So that's kind of a fun hobby. I like to read a lot. I have a good dog. I've been married for 34 years. But probably the thing that I'm most excited about in life and have been for years, is what cure does and I'm not even asking people to give to cure, but I just feel like if you're a believer in the kingdom of God, you'd like to see it actually being fleshed out and walked out in real life. And that's what cure is. These hospitals, they're pediatric, neurosurgical, and orthopedic surgical hospitals that are all about proclaiming the kingdom and then healing people. And last year, These hospitals did 18,000 plus surgeries.
- [02:54]
Brent Billings
Wow.
- [02:55]
Brant Hansen
They share the gospel of the kingdom with everyone in the name of Jesus, including, like, praying over the kids in the or. We train national surgeons. Like in Uganda. All the neurosurgeons are now Ugandans.
- [03:06]
Marty Solomon
Wow.
- [03:07]
Brant Hansen
It's a totally different kind of thing. But to see the coupling of the proclaiming of the kingdom and actual healing people is like, that's undefeated. It's just the most beautiful thing. And if anyone knows my background, then they know I've been through a lot of religious hypocrisy and stuff. So I'm just all about actually seeing the Jesus stuff walked out and then being a part of that.
- [03:30]
Unknown
Yeah. That's beautiful.
- [03:32]
Brent Billings
That's really beautiful. That was a great opener.
- [03:34]
Brant Hansen
Thank you.
- [03:35]
Brent Billings
So I can't remember exactly how things worked, but I can remember starting to hear, like, more than once, people saying, oh, I found your podcast because of the Brant and Sherry Oddcast. And I'm like, okay, well, that's a great name. Anyway, so. And I think Brent finally listened to something and sent me a clip and was like, hey, this is actually a. This is a pretty cool, pretty big deal. Like, send me a little clip. And I listen. And you guys were talking about the podcast. You're talking about how much you enjoyed listening, and I'm like, okay. And we have just had a constant stream of people that find us because of your show, the radio show, the podcast, all of that. And just tell us some about. Just tell us some about the podcast. I don't know. You've got so much going on just in that little corner alone. But tell us some about that relationship, because it was so cool to meet you from afar and then to get to interact and talk. And we did interview before on your end, and it's been such a fun relationship.
- [04:39]
Brant Hansen
It has been fun. You know what makes it fun to me? Just from my background of being in Christian radio for years. So we're syndicated. I. We're on a couple hundred stations across the country, and our show. And I want to get back to this because I want to get your opinion on some stuff but we talk about Jesus on the show.
- [04:54]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [04:54]
Brant Hansen
And I just. When you're in radio, there's a lot of people in media. There's a lot of people, frankly, who are very insecure, and that's why they're in media.
- [05:03]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [05:03]
Brant Hansen
Same thing with whenever there's a stage or a microphone. There's this insecurity that draws people to that, like, we're needy. And I've probably been guilty of that, too. But I don't like competition. I don't like the idea of it. I like the idea that God takes care of things. And if I'm interested in something and it happens to be a podcast and I'm learning from it, which I have so much learned from your podcast, it's been such a help. I want to tell people about it and even tell people, and I have, like, hey, if you get into Bama and you kind of take a hiatus from us, or maybe you never even come back, that's okay. I don't care. I want to stay in contact with people, and I want to have influence that's hopefully helpful. But part of that influence, honestly, is handing people off to go, hey, I've been growing because I've been learning so much that I want to share this with you. And I think when people hear that and there's no dollar thing you didn't sponsor our podcast, you don't have to like, it's genuine, because it is genuine. And I have benefited so much. My friend Jeff, I think, told me about it. Jeff Owen, who was part of the band 10th Avenue North. He's the guy that's like, hey, you need to listen to this. And then pretty soon, I'm like, I've listened to way more than he has. I'm like, dude, you got to catch up. It's so good. I've had listeners say, I'm in season four or whatever. I'm like, oh, I need to go back to that. And they've told me about stuff you're talking about. Makes me so happy because we're all. It's like this. You get this learning vibe together, and I think it's really beautiful.
- [06:40]
Brent Billings
Well, it has been. And for what it's worth, just thanks for your generous spirit, your humble posture, and your willingness to share and share the things that you're learning, the way that you're learning it, and the resources. That's beautiful. We usually do these interviews with people that have a resource or a book that they're got. I think we've said this a few times. A lot of stuff. There's so many different directions that we could go, and I think we are going to go today. Good in our conversation. But there was a book that you wrote. It's actually funny because when I first heard your name and Brent sent me that clip and I'm figuring out, I didn't realize that you were the same guy that had written this book called Unoffendable, which years before, I was at kind of this larger church and this book showed up and it was like making the rounds in everybody's small group. And it wasn't like, it wasn't the curriculum we were using, but everybody was talking about this book Unoffendable, and it just was making such a positive impact on so many of the groups that were at our church. And then I think I could be wrong here, but I think you've republished it. Don't know if you've made updates and revisions. But can you tell us about that book? Tell us about that project, why it kind of resurfaced again a year or two ago and talk about that.
- [07:56]
Brant Hansen
So I'm not a scholar. And so this is what's so wild. I honestly, when I wrote this book, thought there's going to be scholars that come at me and just crush my little argument. Like it's in can, and then that'll be that. But it hasn't happened. And so I was thinking about anger, and I was wondering how long we're supposed to have righteous anger about crime or whatever. Something that somebody does is horrible. Like, okay, I'm angry now. How long am I supposed to be angry? Like, two weeks or a month or a year? And no one could tell me, like, no, really. I mean, we know righteous anger is good. So how long are we supposed to have it? We supposed to take it to the grave for everything? And no one can answer the question. I'm actually asking this on Christian radio. Then I noticed I was, like, looking through scripture for the idea of righteous anger for humans, and I couldn't find it. We just grow up. We're taught there's righteous and unrighteous anger for humans in the Bible. From what I can tell, righteous anger is God's. Like, his anger is righteous. Mine, I don't even know. Like, how could I know? I'm not the final arbiter. I don't even know my own motives. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4, so could that be true? And so all the proverbs about wisdom, and you guys know this better than I do, but it's like about wisdom and foolishness. Anger is always tied in with foolishness. Anger is never a part of, like, Fruit of the Spirit list. It's not like love, joy, peace, righteous anger. You know, goodness, meekness. Like, it's not in there. It's something. It's like vengeance. Like, it's. God has it because he can be trusted with it. And then I found that thinkers like Martin Luther King Jr. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Dallas Willard and other people actually agreed with this idea that there is no such thing as righteous anger for a believer. And that's so counterintuitive. But once you start unpacking that and you realize, wait a second. Forgiveness means I surrender my right to anger. There's so much freedom that comes from that. And it totally jives with so much about how we're supposed to live. And I think it's really discipleship because it's loving your enemies. It's forgiving because you've been forgiven. And the big censure was I was listening to Tim Keller's sermon about anger, and I really respect him and respected him. His sermon was from Ephesians, and he said, see, it says here, in your anger, do not sin. Therefore, Keller said, since it says that, it must mean that anger is good sometimes because it says, in your anger, do not sin. So anger is not a sin, therefore we should be angry about this and that. I'm like, dude, what's the rest of the verse? You skipped the rest of the verse. Why? And this is from a guy I respect immensely. Again, but the rest of the verse is. It says, in your anger, do not sin, and do not let the sun go down while you're angry. And then five verses later, it talks about getting rid of all anger. Like, why didn't we skip the part about getting rid of it before the sun goes down?
- [10:52]
Unknown
Right?
- [10:53]
Brant Hansen
So that's the. That's the half scripture that's used to justify this whole theology of why my anger is good.
- [10:59]
Unknown
Right?
- [10:59]
Brant Hansen
And again, I thought somebody'd come along and crush this a long time ago, but they haven't. And the book, weirdly, is still, like, top 2500 on Amazon. And it's been years. It's maybe sold 300,000 copies. Again, I'm no theologian. I'm just a guy. But it's been interesting to see people line up behind this going, actually, a guy makes. They're thinking, I made a good point.
- [11:20]
Brent Billings
Well, it's like. It's a great, like, reordering of. Because there are things that are. It's the who's, it's the characters and where they fall in. Who's responsible for what. Because there are injustices.
- [11:32]
Brant Hansen
Absolutely.
- [11:33]
Brent Billings
There are things that are. But it's who gets to be angry and why we would surrender, why we would work through that anger and surrender it. Because there is injustice. The problem is I just don't know how to see it, how to hold it, what to do with it.
- [11:48]
Brant Hansen
Well, I know this. Here's the thing. We conflate anger with action.
- [11:52]
Brent Billings
Sure.
- [11:52]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:53]
Brant Hansen
So we think if I'm getting angry about something, then good, I got angry about it. See, I'm angry. So we think it's righteous. We can pat ourselves on the back. There's studies that show that people that do that actually are less likely to, to actually do anything. Like we are supposed to react to injustice with action.
- [12:12]
Unknown
Right.
- [12:13]
Brant Hansen
And we do, we do a better job if we're not angry. Anger clouds our judgment. Anger makes us self righteous jerks. Anger makes us like lash out. But you can do a better job. And this is what Willard said. He's like, whatever you do with anger, you can do better without it.
- [12:27]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:29]
Brent Billings
Like anger can be a great seed and a great starting point, but it's that thing you got to work through in order to get to something better.
- [12:34]
Brant Hansen
Yeah. I am responsible for my own sin. Like, I've got enough stuff right. I'm so thankful for God's sacrifice for me that I'm going to extend that to other people. I don't want to be the unmerciful servant. So I think it's actually pretty clear in scripture, but it actually becomes easier as you do it. Like a lot of practices when you start forgiving people in traffic, I tell people, look, traffic is forgiveness practice.
- [13:02]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [13:03]
Brant Hansen
Like it's a pretty, it's a pretty low leverage opportunity.
- [13:06]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [13:07]
Brant Hansen
To put away your right to anger and actually pray for blessings on people. And what happens is your character changes and it actually gets easier to do over time.
- [13:15]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [13:16]
Brent Billings
All right, stop that. I don't need to hear any more about that. Next question.
- [13:22]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, it's funny that that came up because over Christmas I was hanging out with my sister and she kept metaphorically slapping her kids across the face throughout the day, telling them to be unoffendable. And I was like, are you referring to the brand Hanson book? And she's like, no, I don't know who that is. I was like, okay. So it has this wide reaching the 300,000 copies sold. But then it has this larger, I think, cultural effect that people don't even know who you are. And it still is affecting their lives. I like that.
- [13:54]
Brant Hansen
Can I tell you the story about how I wrote this book a little bit?
- [13:56]
Marty Solomon
Like, yeah, actually, I was going to ask that. Like, what is the. You said you were interviewing people on radio, trying to figure out these questions, like, you know. Yeah, tell me. Tell me the genesis of the thing.
- [14:07]
Brant Hansen
That's where the topic came from. But I'm going to share this because I think if you're listening, it might be helpful to you. I read Seth Godin's book called Linchpin, and Seth Godin has written a lot of books. And in Linchpin, he talks about how he's not really a great writer. He's talking about himself. He's like, but at least I get them done. Like, a lot of people are like, oh, I'm going to write a book, or I want to write a book. And you never do anything. It's like, it's better to ship a product that's not perfect than to never get something done. And so I thought, you know, that's true. And I think I was kicking myself for years for not having written a book. So this is. This is one of the most uninspiring stories you're ever going to hear about a Christian book. But, you guys, I literally, and forgive my language, this is how I put it. I said, I'm going to go to the coffee shop on Saturday. I'm going to sit down, I'm going to order a coffee, and then I'm not getting up, not going to the bathroom. I'm not ordering another coffee until I write a crappy chapter about something, and I'm going to get it done, and it's going to be terrible, but I'm going to do it. And then I'm going to come back the next week and write a second chapter. So I did that, and I did not know what I was going to write about. And I wrote two chapters, and it turned out to be about anger, because I thought I was thinking about it, because I was talking about it on the air and stuff, sent it off to a publisher, and I was like, good. See, I did it. I shipped it. It's terrible. But at least I don't have to rake myself over the coals for being a failure, because I never even tried. And I'll be darned if Harper Collins didn't go back and they're like, hey, do you have an outline for this? We actually are intrigued. And I was like, yeah, I have an outline. I'll have it anyway in about four hours. So that's how this book came into being. And the fact that it's. That it's still getting propagated and the ideas are percolating around and literally, I think it's a discipleship thing. I think this practice of forgiveness is discipleship. It makes us more like Jesus. And that to me is unbelievable. So when I tell people, I don't feel like I know what I'm doing. It's true, I don't. But it's gone so well, and I think I have to just thank God for that.
- [16:06]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I'm reading right now. I'm studying the history of spirituality with a book that's horrible at the moment. I don't think it's going to redeem itself. But you study the growth of Christianity through the centuries, Christian spirituality, and there are these whole seasons, like 150, 250 year blocks of time where it's like we had to get out of our head and we just had to show up and do something for this long season of Christian history. We had to create some liturgy. We had to, because we were just thinking up everything we possibly could. And it was about time to just get something done, not just think about things. And I think there's a real spiritual practice, something spiritually formative in that story that you share of. If nothing ever actually makes it to the production floor, we didn't really accomplish anything. And getting something that's not quite what we. That's good. It's good.
- [17:03]
Brant Hansen
Yeah. Well, it really helped. Unlocked me. And I think again, if you're listening and you're like, there's stuff that I could do, but I'm being a perfectionist, that'll stop you from doing anything. And I think in the back of my head I'm like, oh, I'd like to write like Tolkien. Well, I can't. I'm not as smart as he is. I'm not him. So it's never gonna happen unless I just go, you know what I'm gonna do what Brandt can do. And then, Lord, you do with it what you want.
- [17:29]
Unknown
Yep.
- [17:30]
Brent Billings
Okay, so let's keep talking about writing. You said that you were doing some writing about anxiety and peace. Tell me about what. What's been prompting that and what you're processing. Like, talk about that.
- [17:40]
Brant Hansen
Well, I. I was wondering about Jesus telling us we don't need to be worried, because when I've talked about that on the air, sometimes I get pushback. I mean, I can literally quote Jesus on Christian radio. And people are like, yeah, but. But they're like, yeah, that's poetic. But realistically, I'll say Jesus says, don't be anxious. Instead be like the birds of the air or the lilies of the field. And they're like, yeah, that's poetic and stuff, but realistically, we are going to be worried about stuff. I think Jesus is realistic. I don't think he's talking purely poetically there.
- [18:16]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [18:18]
Brant Hansen
And I think we can become less anxious sorts of people, and people are very, very anxious. So I like talking about that because I think it's another subject, like anger that applies to everybody. And it's another discipleship thing where there really are things that we can do to become less anxious sorts of people. We become a different sort of person that reacts to things differently.
- [18:38]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Brant Hansen
And so that's a book called Life is Hard, God is Good, let's Dance. It's about experiencing real joy in a world gone mad.
- [18:48]
Brent Billings
Oh, I like that. That's good. Good title. Thanks. Yeah, I. I'm memorizing that one of those passages out of Luke this week. So interesting that you would bring up that teaching, because that's what I'm. And I. I found it interesting. So my memorization for this week, it's gone over two weeks because last week was where he starts talking about it. And then this week's passage section for me, he goes from, you know, therefore, don't be anxious. Don't worry about what you will eat or drink. And then the next one, he moves immediately into the be ready and be watchful. Almost like a busy yourself. He says, be alert, be dressed and ready, and have your lamps lit. This is next sentence. And I don't think there's a. There's not a break in the teaching. So it's like when you sit here worrying about what you need and internally focus and it's almost like he transitions to worry about what God's doing in the world. Like, be ready. Be at work. Have your lance lamps lit. He's going to return. Make sure he finds you alert and at work and prepared because there's going to be an awesome party. Like, you don't. Like, don't sit back and worry about how bad it could be. Like, be ready for how good it's going to be because we, like, know what the party is. And then I just have all these Robert Farrar Kapin, he has this quote. Robert Farrar Kapon does. I can't remember in which book.
- [20:13]
Brant Hansen
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:14]
Brent Billings
About God is not coming back as the angry and the angry mother in law coming to see if you've chipped her china. God is the crazy uncle with a salon with a salami under one arm and a bottle of wine under the other.
- [20:29]
Brant Hansen
That's so great.
- [20:29]
Brent Billings
Coming down the basement steps saying, like. Like this is. And I think there's some relationship here between maybe our eschatology and what we believe about what God's doing in the world and our anxiety and our worry. So I. I do love that Robert.
- [20:45]
Brant Hansen
Farrar Kapon, or however you say his name. I've never actually heard his name said. I just have seen it and I've read some of his stuff. That dude waxed theological and philosophical and poetic about an egg. About an egg for like six chapters.
- [20:57]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And it was genius.
- [20:59]
Brant Hansen
It was so good. But the anxiety thing, I tell people I'm just. I'm just cribbing this from Willard. But what, you know, what you pay attention to is everything. I mean, it's just. That's just. It determines who you're going to be. You are paying attention. You're like, you're paying to attend to something that determines who you're going to become. So, so much of our anxiety is about what we're paying attention to. Jesus attention is on this kingdom and his Father's will all the time. And he literally tells us, in this world, you're going to have trouble, but be of good cheer. I've overcome the world, and I can imagine him even wink, wink, like, I got this, you guys. It's going to make sense in the end. I know you don't think it is. I know you're like, there's no way this could possibly be justified. That suffering, the whatever. And I don't know how that all works either. But the trusting is. I'm just trusting the character of God in the end, I'm trusting him. You guys recommended Rabbi David Forman many times, and I started following him and learning from him too, because of you guys. He had talked about Miriam's song. Is it Miriam Moses, sister?
- [22:05]
Unknown
Yep.
- [22:06]
Brant Hansen
Like, why in the world. When they cross the sea of reeds or whatever, she starts her own. Everybody sings and it goes on forever. And then she has to start her own song. It's like, what's up with. Why does his sister have to do her own song? And then he goes back and explains her perspective on this whole thing. Like, Moses was. Had no chance. He's being put out as a baby and she's watching this happen. And here comes basically Hitler's daughter to come out. She's watching this from afar, like my brother. There's no way he survives. The Pharaoh is going to get him. It's all over. And now he was placed in these reeds. And she watched that as a kid. And now she sees her brother leading people through the sea of reeds, and it's Pharaoh who dies.
- [22:49]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [22:50]
Brant Hansen
And of course, she breaks into song. But I was just. I kind of concluded my book about this with, what if we got to sit and have tea with her and tell her about our problem, the problems in our lives, and, like, this is never going to make any sense. This is like, I can imagine her just smiling and nodding like, you know what? You would not believe how good God is. You just wouldn't.
- [23:11]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I remember that teaching from Foreman in that. Yeah, that is. That is a good one. She's seen some things, and it has changed the way. And it's kind of funny because it does. I think there's a Jewish midrash that, like, she wrote the original song and Moses kind of stole it, and. And she. But she has this perspective, like, you don't even know. Like, you. You have not seen what I have seen.
- [23:34]
Brant Hansen
Right.
- [23:34]
Brent Billings
And I do. I do love that. Absolutely.
- [23:37]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Brant Hansen
The. The image I use. I. You guys, I was on. I'm not bragging. This is another miracle. I did not make this happen. But I was on Good Morning America again in December or November or something, and they had me talk about anxiety. It was November because it was like, a week after the election.
- [23:53]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
- [23:54]
Brant Hansen
And I don't know if you saw that, but I got to conclude, like, it's kind of a Miriam thing. I got to conclude with going, well, if you know how the story ends, you're not as anxious.
- [24:06]
Unknown
Yep.
- [24:06]
Brent Billings
Absolutely. I did see that clip. Absolutely I did.
- [24:09]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Brant Hansen
Okay. Well, I felt like I totally blew that interview, and then I watched it later, and it's like, no, it was fine, but God does his thing, right? The irony was I was so anxious about this interview, and I was aware of it. I was on the set talking, and I'm like, the irony here is I'm extremely nervous as I'm talking about anxiety. Yeah.
- [24:30]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [24:32]
Marty Solomon
So you are on the radio so much, and you've been doing this so long, but I just don't even understand how you find the things to talk about. Like, all. All of these conversations on the air are leading to books. Like, you just have all this stuff swirling around.
- [24:46]
Brant Hansen
Yep.
- [24:46]
Marty Solomon
But you're on the radio so much. Like, how do You. How do you make it all work? How do you figure out, like, what part is the podcast? How do you speak to the audience of 200 stations? Like, yeah, it's just a lot to juggle and manage. Like, what is your. What is your creative process?
- [25:03]
Brant Hansen
This. I'll tell you. And I think, again, this can be practical for anybody who's listening, because I have to come up with basically 20 things to say every day, and I have to condense all of that. And that's really the work, right? If somebody's like, brant, go up and speak for 45 minutes about this topic, I'm like, that sounds great. One topic, fantastic. But to condense things to 45 seconds or 55, here's what I do. I don't know each day how in the world I'm going to do that, including this morning. So what I do is I put a leash on my dog, cozy. She's a golden retriever. We walk outside and I ask God, okay, my daily bread is content. That's what I'm asking you for. I'm not asking you for next week. I'm not asking you for the show to get a big break with some big station or something. I need content, and I want it to add value to people's lives. I want it to literally be a blessing. And we do the show. And Sheri, my producer's always so encouraging, and she's like, that was a great show. And I feel like every time, I feel like I just barely crossed the finish line. Like, I barely had enough, but it was enough. And I have found this to be a very practical way to live. Like, there's no way. Because the next day, you're like, 20 more things. Are you kidding me? So that's where the podcast comes from. It's a. It's. We take all the breaks from the radio show, and then we add some extra stuff. If it's more long form or it's deeper or it's more troubling. Like, it's something I couldn't easily do on Christian radio, but that's what it is. I think it's neat, too. Again, the goodness of God, I'm always learning. So that's the other part of that. I'm always listening and learning. That's where, like, listening to you guys has been so helpful. But one of the things I think is so beautiful about that is you guys are getting ready for what you're going to do. And it just has a ricochet effect. Like, it has a. It bounces around. Well, Outside of your own sphere of influence. Actually, your sphere is bigger than you think, because you could come up with an idea, throw it out on your podcast. Other people hear it. They talk about it. I hear it. It goes out on a couple hundred radio stations. I think that's really sweet. So we're all kind of in the. I call it the content fields. Like, I'm going to hand select the finest content in the field. I joke about that. Like it's bespoke, artisanal content. But you guys are out there, too, so occasionally I'll take stuff out of your basket and use it.
- [27:38]
Marty Solomon
It's like this conversation where not everybody knows that they're in the conversation, but one person knows that the other person said something, and then they pass it on, but they don't know who they're passing it on to.
- [27:50]
Brant Hansen
Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think it's neat. I think you should. It's not a pride thing, but you guys should. Among other things you can be thankful for is like, you don't know. You don't know the effect of what you're saying. It's very difficult when you're just doing a podcast, too, because. And the same thing as radio, but I think it's beautiful in a way. But it's also difficult if I'm in front of a live crowd. Well, I like making people laugh, and I like, aha. Moments where I can tell, okay, that hit home. I'm registering. I try to be empathetic and understand where people are and how they're responding. It's very difficult when you don't have that, when you're just putting words out there. So it's good to get that feedback from people. Maybe it's a colleague like me is talking to you to say, hey, keep going, keep digging, keep thinking. Because you don't. You don't know. And it is a blessing in this business. You can subtly devalue what you actually do, which is. Well, it's just words. I'm just throwing words out there. Well, you know, there is no just words.
- [28:56]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:57]
Brant Hansen
Not just words. Words speak the universe into existence. Like, there's no words can set. Like James says. Like, I think it's James. Like, you can set the world on fire with your tongue. Like, words are the most powerful thing. So it can be a little bit lonely in a sense, but it's so valuable. We just don't get to always see it.
- [29:20]
Brent Billings
Abraham Joshua Heschel said words create worlds, referencing the creation story, but playing off of how that same generative power keeps doing that, Keeps doing that thing. Hey, you were talking about spheres of influence and the things that God does with it. You told us that you recently spent a weekend with over 100 murderers talking about the kingdom of God.
- [29:44]
Brant Hansen
I did.
- [29:45]
Brent Billings
That's a weekend. Tell us about that.
- [29:47]
Brant Hansen
It was so crazy, guys. So I went with a friend. He invited me. He's like, I've been to this maximum security prison in San Diego. And he said, I think I can get you in there. Would you be willing to talk to these prisoners about forgiveness and stuff? Like, yes. I've never done anything like that. And I know a lot of people do this stuff sort of all the time. But we did a two day how to Follow Jesus workshop at a maximum security prison. And these guys, including the guys that are helping me with the av, are like my audio visual guy. He had killed three people, his family members. And I could Google the guys when I go back to the hotel room. Like, what? Oh, my goodness. Like, they're the subject of 48 hours, literally cereal. But they showed up by the hundreds. And I was talking about how to actually follow Jesus. And I got my publisher to donate 150 copies of Unoffendable, and then 150 copies of a book I wrote called the Men we need about masculinity. And the neat thing, I just heard last night back from the prison fellowship guy who's there, and he said, those books have been a huge discipling tool, and there's a waiting list that the guys are waiting. Like they're passing them around. There's like 800 guys in the yard. The funny thing, and I mentioned this to you guys offline, but I actually played pickleball with the Mendendez brothers. Paddles. So that's just kind of a strange weekend.
- [31:17]
Brent Billings
That's almost like Miriam saying, you would not believe the things I've seen. It has less depth to it, but it's the same kind.
- [31:25]
Brant Hansen
I have played pickleball. So, yeah, I played pickleball with the prisoners and the Menendez brothers were there, but they didn't come to the thing. But that's okay. And it was phenomenal. And the church service they had was so sweet. They were packed with these guys and they're singing. And the fact that I could hear people singing, unlike a lot of, unfortunately, churches, I can't hear anybody except the people on stage. I'm like hearing these voices, knowing that a lot of them know they're never getting out. Gosh, it was so sweet. You guys, like, I do want to go back. And I also thought it was neat because I'm not that guy. You'd be like, here's the football player everybody respects. I'm not. I'm a nerdy person. I'm not huge. I don't have any tats at all. They didn't care. In fact, one of them said that they were more.
- [32:22]
Unknown
They.
- [32:23]
Brant Hansen
They listened to me more than other guys because of that. Because they could tell I wasn't trying to be something. And I thought, that's really interesting. They're just like, please don't BS us.
- [32:33]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [32:34]
Brant Hansen
So.
- [32:35]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, well, a different sort of. I don't know if it's a weekend, but a conference thing that you have coming up, a young men's conference. Probably not any murders in that scene, but maybe some of the same types of conversations about forgiveness and other stuff. Tell me about the conference.
- [32:52]
Brant Hansen
Yeah, well, I talk about masculinity a lot because I wrote these books and I actually based my picture of masculinity around being a keeper of the garden. I think that's the best way to sum up. And I think when women hear it, I speak at even corporations to factory workers, and they're all. Some people are side eyeing me. Or there's women in corporate settings that are like, looking at me like, they're like, what are you talking? Because it's very difficult to talk about masculinity in this culture. But then when I'm done, the women come up and they're like, would you please tell my boyfriend to read your book? Because they recognize deep down that a man who is a keeper of the garden, he's actually a protector of the vulnerable. He's somebody who allows these vulnerable species to flourish. I'm here so other people can bloom. Anybody in my sphere of influence, that's my garden. Like that security that you bring as a man, if you bring that kind of security, everybody profits. Everybody around you. There aren't so many societal problems which just disappear. And most of the time, guys aren't even told. They don't have any rubric. They've got no model for what masculinity is. And even in church culture, it's like, men need to man up. And I'm like, right, what are you talking about, man up? What is that? Men need to stand up and be men. Okay, right. But what does it mean? And I think this comes as close. At least that's why I wrote the book. Like, I think when you realize what it means to be a keeper of the garden. You get it? Like it's something even a kid can get. So churches now, sometimes they'll have me come in. I'm doing this in Bloomington, Indiana soon. But I've also done it in San Francisco recently. But they'll just put on the men we need, conference and invite people and I'll come and explain this. And honestly, people will just. They get it. It flicks a switch. Even, even a 12 year old guy can be like, wait a second, I'm supposed to protect the vulnerable. I'm not supposed to be a threat.
- [34:45]
Unknown
Right.
- [34:45]
Brant Hansen
I'm supposed to be a protector. That makes all the difference. They just need the mission. So I've been, I've been doing a lot of that.
- [34:52]
Brent Billings
That actually is because you're right, man. I never want to talk about. That's so hard to talk about because it's done so poorly in this direction and then we overcorrect in another direction. But that's a great metaphor. I mean, obviously I immediately start thinking about Genesis and the way that we abuse that call of what it means to have dominion. Is it to care and steward or is it to dominate and rule? And that's what we do with the masculinity thing. It's the perfect metaphor because that's how we misunderstand it. Like it's a. I'm supposed to be here to dominate and to crush.
- [35:29]
Brant Hansen
How does that make your wife feel secure?
- [35:31]
Brent Billings
Yeah, right?
- [35:32]
Brant Hansen
Yeah. If I'm making vulnerable people around me feel insecure, I'm failing the idea that I'm supposed to be this domineering presence. Well, that doesn't make everybody secure. That makes people insecure. Actually. That must not be it.
- [35:43]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [35:43]
Brent Billings
And the meter for me is my own son, like, my son is 14 and I keep trying to figure out what it means to teach him all this stuff. I want it to look like Jesus. And that's my meter of like, is this the right. Is this what my football coach would have like, had a pep talk about? Or is this what Jesus would be like? Would he smile about this? And that's my. That's my. That's my ruler. That's my standard of measurement when it comes to.
- [36:10]
Brant Hansen
I like that.
- [36:11]
Brent Billings
That is thinking about. Yeah, that's good.
- [36:13]
Brant Hansen
That's what I was trying to do with this. So they had me follow up with a book called the Young Men We Need. So I wrote it just for guys that are like, you know, high school and maybe early college. I try not to make it stupid. I try to make it where it doesn't insult their intelligence, but it's the same basic idea. And just go, here's how you can walk this out.
- [36:30]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I love that. Okay, so I think we got time for this question. Brandt, you got any thoughts about discipleship? What are you cooking up over there?
- [36:38]
Brant Hansen
You know. Okay, I do have. I have this thought I want to tell you because I think it should be deeply encouraging to you, and I also want to get your perspective on it. Our show is not particularly smooth on the radio. It's odd. And we've had consultants tell us we have to acknowledge that because they're waiting for a certain way of doing Christian radio, and then they hear us and they're like, what in the world?
- [37:02]
Marty Solomon
So maybe that's why I like it so much.
- [37:05]
Brant Hansen
Yeah, maybe. I'm on the spectrum. I'm upfront about that on the air. So sometimes I come across a certain way, and as people know it, then they can go, oh, okay, my son's on this. I get it. Or Sherry's got a big laugh. That's just who she is. And, yeah. So first, it's wonderful that at first, people are like, what in the world? This guy's got this dry sense of humor or something. And she's got this big, like, what? So we have to tell people that up front. So it's not smooth. We're not local to any. Any station. We're not local. We're not live, so we're not talking about anything. So we're on in, like, Los Angeles, like, in Riverside, Inland Empire. It's a top 25 market. I'll give you this as an example. We're not live. We're not talking about the rams. We're not talking about the fires. We're not talking about stuff local. Our show talks a lot about Jesus. We're consistently the number one morning show if we're not live or local, and we're not smooth, and we're talking literally about the kingdom of God. Guys, we're beating the mainstream stations on their morning. They have the morning zoos and all that.
- [38:15]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [38:16]
Brant Hansen
Does that make any sense? And I say this as hopeful, and this has happened in a lot of different markets, but I say it as a hopeful thing because I think there's this openness and hunger for substance that I don't think I've ever seen before, and I hope you're experiencing that, too, with what you do. And that's why I think the more people find out about your podcast and stuff, the more they'll benefit from it. I think they're really hungry.
- [38:43]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Brant, because I keep hearing that, and I think I'm seeing it. My cynicism gets in the way.
- [38:55]
Brant Hansen
Yeah.
- [38:55]
Brent Billings
But speaking of gardens, like. Like weeds or life finding a way to poke through the concrete, like, it keeps showing up. And I keep hearing other people say the same thing, and I'm like, I'm. I don't. It's almost like I have that. My. My cynic says I can't. This can't be. But I think. I think there's something there. And I think it's true with young people. I think it's true with all people, but I'm working with young people, and there is a weird. I can't put my finger on it because obviously they're all deconstructing and they all hate the institutions of whatever. And. And that's all true. And I'm here to support that and love. Love on them in that. And. And through that. And. But there's also what you're talking about. There's also some. If it's real, I just need it to be real. I don't want another product. I don't want a Jesus product. I don't want a consumer good. I don't actually need a method. I don't want the program, like, all of that. No matter how you want to package it, I don't want the packaging. I'm very interested in what I just tasted.
- [40:05]
Brant Hansen
Absolutely.
- [40:06]
Brent Billings
And I don't even know what to do with that yet because I'm not even sure I've been willing to believe it's there. And I think I'm going to have to, because enough people keep pointing it out, and I'm like, all right, there's something going on there. Because what I want to do is what every other Christian leader, which is how do I package it?
- [40:20]
Brant Hansen
I know.
- [40:21]
Brent Billings
How do.
- [40:22]
Brant Hansen
I don't. And that's. That's why I think the earlier point that I so brilliantly made earlier about how you can't measure. Really, all you can do is be faithful with the words that you put out there.
- [40:34]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [40:35]
Brant Hansen
And whether. Whether your thing blows up or not, who cares?
- [40:38]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [40:39]
Brant Hansen
Whether my thing blows up or not, who cares? You just want it to blow up.
- [40:42]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [40:43]
Brant Hansen
And so.
- [40:43]
Unknown
Yeah, but.
- [40:44]
Brant Hansen
And you. You can't calculate your role in that.
- [40:47]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [40:47]
Brant Hansen
But all you can do is be faithful with what you have. And so I do think it's real. And I think maybe if I was trying to intellectualize it, I'D say it's a response to the fact that our cultural narratives have failed utterly and they're abysmal failures. And so people are going, okay, what else? Maybe there's some truth here. And this returns me back like the work with cure. I can go, this is real, man. How do you like, people are getting little girls are getting up and walking.
- [41:14]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [41:15]
Brant Hansen
Like teenagers. 16 year old boys can get up and walk for the first time and they're told us because God loves them and they're being charged no dollars and no cents and they're getting top flight surgery because. Because the people of Jesus are actually doing the stuff. You don't always hear about it, but they are actually doing it. And like people like, I love being a part of that because when I talk about the kingdom, I can say, see, this is happening. Forget all the consumer stuff. Forget the Christian pants or the Christian things that get marketed. Jesus is actually still using his people. Even though we're a mess, he's still using us. It's real.
- [41:52]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [41:53]
Brent Billings
Well, you just made our episode of Chiasm, so I can't wait to go back and listen to what lies at the middle.
- [41:59]
Brant Hansen
Oh, you think that wasn't deliberate? I'm playing 3D chiastic chess with you guys.
- [42:09]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [42:09]
Marty Solomon
So good.
- [42:10]
Brent Billings
I do love that. Well, Brandt, let me ask you this. What are the things that people ought to know? I mean you've just shared about cure, you've shared a bunch of other things. What are other things? What things haven't we touched on that others may want to know about? Whether it's books you've written, things you produce, other things you're connected to, boards you serve on. I don't even. What are other things that people might want to know about?
- [42:32]
Brant Hansen
Well, if you're interested in the books, like unoffendable. I did a video series so it can be a discussion thing. They're like 15 minute videos. And then discuss.
- [42:40]
Unknown
Cool.
- [42:40]
Brant Hansen
Hopefully. Hopefully that's helpful. I want to underscore that thing because if you talk about this in a group, it's a discipleship meeting.
- [42:47]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [42:48]
Brant Hansen
You're literally talking about how do I love my enemies? How do we actually do it? I remember Willard saying churches could on Tuesday night put up a sign on their marquee. Tuesday night at 6:30, we'll teach you how to follow Jesus. Why not? So that's what I'm trying to do here. That's what that whole series is. But if you're interested in the books, it's on Amazon, It's Brandt with a B R a N T. And then Hanson is H A N S E N if you want to look it up. But that's all.
- [43:16]
Marty Solomon
This will be an extensive set of shownotes with all the things we've talked about so far, and I feel like we're only scratching the surface, basically.
- [43:23]
Brent Billings
Yeah, we sure are.
- [43:24]
Brant Hansen
Have me back.
- [43:25]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [43:26]
Marty Solomon
Actually, I was intrigued by a discussion that you had about the parable of the talents.
- [43:32]
Brant Hansen
Oh, yeah, I don't know.
- [43:33]
Marty Solomon
Do we have time for that, Marty?
- [43:34]
Brent Billings
Absolutely.
- [43:35]
Marty Solomon
We got a few minutes.
- [43:36]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely.
- [43:37]
Marty Solomon
Throw out your idea on the parable of the talents, because I loved. I loved your perspective on that.
- [43:41]
Brant Hansen
Oh, thanks. That makes me feel good. I'm just kind of casting about, trying to understand it. I've always thought that was a terrible story.
- [43:47]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [43:48]
Brant Hansen
Like, right, so there's the version where it's like, okay, so the. The master leaves and one guy gets 10 talents, another guy gets five, another guy gets one, and the guy with 10 makes 10 more. And he's like, well done, good, and faithful servant. The other guy makes five more. Well done, good, faithful servant. And then he gets to the one, he's like, hey, man, I just put the thing in the ground and I can return it to you as it is. And I've always thought that's fine. To me, I'm a Midwestern conservative, kind of close to the vest kind of guy. Hey, look, I protected your thing. You told me to protect the thing. I protected the thing. And then he gets totally blasted by the master, like, you despicable, low down, no good. And I've always thought that was kind of cruel. But then looking at it through a different lens recently, I was like, wait a second. Now that I know that in life, God is looking for partners. He wants to partner with Abraham, with Adam, with everybody. He wants to partner with us in his life, in our lives, too. Well, this guy didn't do the thing. And he said, well, I know you worked really hard to raise this money. I'm not going to lose it for you. It's like, well, if you knew I worked really hard to make money happen. You should have invested it at interest. You should have gotten something out of this. Because that's the problem, I think, is that he didn't participate in the work. He didn't partner. It's like this master is trusting these people to partner with him and his work. And he's like, no, I'm not going to. Well, you missed out on a huge opportunity.
- [45:26]
Brent Billings
It goes back to that same principle of all the books you didn't write, the stuff you didn't do, you just buried every opportunity, played it safe because at least it wouldn't go backwards. And in that case, missed every opportunity to take the story forwards. And here's this master and this God that wants to take the story. That's the one thing he cares about, is forward.
- [45:47]
Brant Hansen
And that's a really good news thing. Right. He wants to. Actually. He wants to partner with us.
- [45:53]
Unknown
Yep.
- [45:53]
Brant Hansen
And so when I'm talking in the morning, walking my dog, like, this is our thing, Lord, like, I'm doing this thing. Hopefully it's what. Hopefully it's pleasing to you. And yeah, if. If. Please help me with this and I'm going to do it with you. And I. I have to think that that's actually the sweet spot for me and for all of us is like saying, yes, I do want to partner with you in life. And it's funny, too. We can get hung up on all the stuff we get hung up on, but it's like, if I keep doing that and I have this believing loyalty, which you guys have talked about, have this. He said loyalty. Well, then the other stuff, that'll take care of itself. I'm just going to keep coming back and we're going to keep walking together no matter what. I've seen that bear a lot of fruit.
- [46:38]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. What I loved about that is I think I've always looked at that parable in an individualistic sense, the individual success of each of the people who had the set of talents. And so that perspective of, like, no, it's this partnership. I'm just. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. It doesn't matter how you did it. The point is, you're doing the work that I'm doing, and it's a partnership. And, yeah, I really appreciate that.
- [47:02]
Brant Hansen
Yeah, I love these. Trusting us to be part of his business, too, like, that's. That's pretty cool. Apparently we're gonna. We're going to reign with him. Apparently. I don't totally understand it all even over. We're going to judge angels and stuff. You guys know this better than me. But apparently he wants us to learn how to do stuff because we need to be ready for that.
- [47:23]
Brent Billings
Yeah, that's pretty good. I'm glad you asked that question, Brent. Good work. Brent Brandt, good. Yeah, that's right. So, Brent, where can people find you? Where's the best place to go to get connected? I'm assuming you got a website. Where's the hub that they can Go to find all things Brant Hansen.
- [47:41]
Brant Hansen
Brant Hansen.com and I, boom, I got it. Update that thing religiously every 10 years. So I hope you really enjoy that. Brant Hansen dot com.
- [47:51]
Marty Solomon
I did wonder. I was like 200 stations. Maybe it's 300. I don't know. When was this updated?
- [47:58]
Brant Hansen
Maybe it's 50.
- [47:59]
Marty Solomon
I don't even know.
- [48:00]
Brant Hansen
Yeah.
- [48:03]
Marty Solomon
All right, beautiful. Well, Brant Hansen dot com. That'll be in the show notes. We've got a lot of books. We've got conferences. We've got all the things we talked about. I'll get all those links in there, your GMA video if anyone wants to see that clip. I'll try to find that. Get that in the show notes. So everything will be there. Brant, thanks so much for joining us. This has been a wonderful pleasure. Long time coming.
- [48:24]
Unknown
Absolutely.
- [48:24]
Brant Hansen
It's an honor for me. It's an honor. I'm so thankful.
- [48:28]
Brent Billings
We're thankful.
- [48:29]
Marty Solomon
Everybody has. I mean, you have your own story. You mentioned somebody who told you about Bama. Everybody has their story of. So I've, I've literally to this day, I've heard one person tell me that they found Behemoth through like a Google search or something. Everybody has somebody else who told them about Bama and we hear your name being that. Somebody else who told them way more than anybody else. So we. That's great. We owe a lot to you.
- [48:54]
Brant Hansen
I think. So I'm trying. You know, my daughter married a guy who was a new believer and he's wonderful. He's grown so much, but you know what a big part of it was. He started listening to Bama too. He's like skipped past 95% of the believers I know in terms of his understanding. And he started going out to the. He looked it up and there was a group that met out on the beach here.
- [49:15]
Brent Billings
Ah, yes.
- [49:16]
Brant Hansen
For Bama. Talk about bay. So he would go out there and they talk about what you guys are talking about. Like that. What. What a blessing to my family that is.
- [49:24]
Marty Solomon
Like, oh, man.
- [49:25]
Brant Hansen
He's now raising two little. Two babies himself and he's just. Just leapfrogged ahead in terms of wisdom and that. Like, yeah, that's. That's another blessing.
- [49:33]
Unknown
Yeah. Beautiful.
- [49:34]
Marty Solomon
So good. Love to hear that. Well, if somebody else wants to find their group on the beach or wherever it may be, that's@bamadeceptionship.com we've got a groups page there. You can use the contact page to get in touch with us. Let us know. I'm sure we'll hear many people as this episode comes out. Oh, my gosh. I've been listening to Brent Hansen for years. He's how I found out about Bama. We're going to get all those comments. You can use the contact page, our social media everything is on there. But thank you to our listeners for joining us this week. We'll talk to you again soon.