Episode 437: Talmudic Matthew — Mainstream or Marginal

Release Date: February 13, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 437 of The BEMA Podcast, hosted by BEMA Discipleship, Marty Solomon and co-host Brent Billings are joined by El Grover Fricks to delve into a critical examination of the Gospel of Matthew through a Talmudic lens. This episode serves as an introductory piece for a new series titled "Talmudic Matthew," aiming to explore whether Jesus was a mainstream or marginal figure within the Jewish context of the 1st century.

Setting the Stage for Talmudic Conversations

The episode begins with a warm welcome and light-hearted banter among the hosts, quickly transitioning into the core subject matter. El Grover Fricks emphasizes the importance of establishing a strong foundational understanding before embarking on an in-depth study of Matthew.

"This time we're going to do an intro episode. We're going to go back and relay some foundations. And the reason why is I want everyone to have a full picture of what we're doing..."
— El Grover Fricks [02:18]

Mainstream vs. Marginal Jesus Camp

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the scholarly debate concerning Jesus's position within Jewish society. The conversation is framed around two primary camps:

1. Marginal Jesus Camp: Suggests that Jesus was a historical figure on the fringes of Jewish culture, whose teachings diverged from mainstream Jewish thought. This perspective posits that early Christianity emerged as a unique tradition distinct from Judaism.

   "The marginal thing doesn't mean like marginal as in he was marginalized and oppressed, but rather that he was at the edges of Jewishness..."
   — El Grover Fricks [06:29]

2. Mainstream Jesus Camp: Argues that Jesus was deeply rooted in Jewish traditions and engaged directly with ongoing Jewish conversations. Proponents believe that Christianity is primarily an outgrowth of Judaism.

   "The mainstream here means that Jesus was a historical figure who represented a common average Jew..."
   — El Grover Fricks [07:13]

Historical Context and Anti-Semitism

El Grover Fricks brings to light the undercurrents of historic anti-Semitism influencing the marginal camp. He underscores the necessity of recognizing these biases to understand the diverse perspectives within Jesus scholarship.

"Ignore the effect of historical biases of figures who built the marginal camp, I think would be a big error..."
— El Grover Fricks [11:08]

Brent Billings adds clarity by distinguishing between historic anti-Semitism related to Jesus's Jewish identity and modern interpretations linked to the state of Israel.

"The anti Semitism that we're talking about involves like, his identity as a Jew or not."
— Brent Billings [14:42]

Divine Revelation: Protestant vs. Catholic Perspectives

The conversation shifts to the concept of divine revelation, contrasting Protestant and Catholic understandings. El Grover Fricks cites a papal document to explain the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium.

"Sacred Scripture is the word of God... Sacred Tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the apostles..."
— Brent Billings reading a papal document [17:03]

Marty Solomon reflects on his own Protestant background, expressing the challenges and learnings from engaging with Catholic theological frameworks.

"I'm intentionally learning from it. I'm Loving some of the things I'm learning from. It doesn't even mean that's where I'm headed..."
— Marty Solomon [21:34]

Rebuttals and Scholarly Exchanges

El Grover Fricks presents a rebuttal to the mainstream camp, emphasizing the relevance of Talmudic discussions to understanding Jesus's teachings. He argues that dismissing Talmudic influence overlooks the deep-rooted Jewish traditions that predate both Jesus and the compilation of the Talmud.

"We have Dead Sea Scrolls with the amidah from the 2nd century BC... by the time of Jesus, folks had been discussing how and when to say this prayer for at least 200 years."
— El Grover Fricks [26:50]

Marty Solomon counters by highlighting the challenges of relying on secondary sources like the Talmud, which was compiled centuries after Jesus's time.

"We can't prove and close the gap. But we're not going to, because so much of this stuff comes from largely an oral culture."
— Marty Solomon [30:01]

The hosts navigate through this scholarly debate, emphasizing the importance of considering both camps to gain a comprehensive understanding of Jesus's place within Jewish society.

Walking Through Cultural and Historical Lenses

El Grover Fricks discusses the necessity of approaching the Talmud without ethnocentric biases, advocating for an open-minded examination of ancient Jewish conversations to contextualize Jesus's teachings.

"We have to take off our ethnocentric glasses... we have to take those glasses off every time we approach a history and a culture which is not our own."
— El Grover Fricks [26:50]

Practical Implications and Listener Engagement

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts encourage listeners to engage critically with the content, acknowledging that exploring deeper theological and historical questions may challenge long-held beliefs. They emphasize the value of compassionate dialogue and self-reflection in grappling with these complex issues.

"If we are ever listening to a teacher and agreeing with 120% of everything you're saying, might want to have some critical reflection about that."
— El Grover Fricks [37:03]

Conclusion

Episode 437 serves as a foundational entry point for the "Talmudic Matthew" series, setting the stage for a nuanced exploration of Jesus's Jewish identity. By juxtaposing mainstream and marginal scholarly perspectives, the hosts aim to foster a deeper understanding of the historical and cultural contexts that shaped Jesus's teachings and, consequently, early Christianity.

Resources and Further Reading

At the conclusion of the episode, El Grover Fricks references several resources for listeners interested in expanding their study:

• De Verbum: A papal document detailing the Catholic understanding of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium.
• A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: A book exploring the marginal camp's perspective on Jesus.
• Brill Publications: Featuring works by Saul Rosenzweig and other scholars on the mainstream qualities of Jesus.
• Wikipedia Article on Juda Anasi: For technical details on the compilation of the Talmud.

Listeners are encouraged to explore these materials to gain a more comprehensive grasp of the topics discussed.

"We have referenced resources... A Marginal Jew Rethinking the Historical Jesus... Also a little reference to who is Yuda Anasi."
— El Grover Fricks [38:26]

Final Thoughts

As Marty Solomon aptly summarizes, the episode emphasizes the importance of critical engagement and open-mindedness in theological studies. By bridging scholarly debates with practical faith application, The BEMA Podcast continues to provide valuable insights for listeners seeking a deeper understanding of the Bible's historical context.

"A very worthwhile episode and study today."
— Marty Solomon [35:28]

Stay Tuned

The hosts invite listeners to stay engaged with the series, promising more in-depth discussions and explorations of the Gospel of Matthew through its Talmudic contexts in upcoming episodes.

"We'll be back next week, so thanks for joining us on the BEMA podcast. We'll talk to you soon."
— Brent Billings [40:05]