439: Talmudic Matthew — Anger

Summary

The BEMA Podcast - Episode 439: Talmudic Matthew — Anger

Release Date: February 27, 2025
Hosts: Elle Grover Fricks, Marty Solomon, and Brent Billings
Description: In this episode, the hosts delve into Jesus's teaching on anger as presented in Matthew 5:21-22, examining it through a Talmudic lens. They explore historical contexts, Talmudic interpretations, and the modern implications for Christian communities.

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1. Personal Anecdotes on Anger

The episode opens with a lighthearted exchange where Brent Billings shares a personal story about his high school experience with anger management:

Brent Billings [00:17]: "I had to do an anger management class in high school because in a basketball game, I kicked a basketball up to the roof and knocked a light fixture out of the gymnasium."

This anecdote sets the stage for a deeper exploration of anger, highlighting its personal and communal impacts.

2. Reading and Interpretation of Matthew 5:21-22

Elle Grover Fricks introduces the central biblical passage:

Elle Grover Fricks [01:23]: "This week we're reading from an interlinear rather than a translation. I'll talk about why later. I promise it's still intelligible..."

Brent and Marty engage in reading Matthew 5:21-22 from an interlinear Bible, emphasizing the importance of understanding the original language:

Marty Solomon [02:03]: "Matthew 5:21. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, you will not murder. Whoever murders now will be liable to the judgment..."

3. Talmudic Perspectives on Anger and Murder

Elle provides a comprehensive overview of Talmudic teachings related to anger and murder, outlining five key points:

1. Moses's Error through Anger: "Moshe, the most revered and honored man and rabbinic tradition fell into error out of anger."
2. Impact on Scholars and Prophets: "If a scholar becomes angry, his learnedness leaves him."
3. Effect on Divine Presence: "He who is angry before him, even the Shekhinah, the spirit of God, is esteemed for nothing."
4. Destruction of the Second Temple: "Why Was the second temple destroyed because there was groundless hatred?"
5. God’s Preferred Traits: "God loves three. The one who is not angry, the one who does not get drunk, and the one who does not insist on his own way."

These insights underscore the severe consequences of unchecked anger within the community.

4. Sanhedrin and Legal Judgments

Brent explores the structure and function of the Sanhedrin:

Brent Billings [13:32]: "Would this have been called the bait, Dean?"

Elle clarifies:

Elle Grover Fricks [13:37]: "Yes, yes. That's the name for their court."

They discuss the little Sanhedrin (local courts with 23 members) and the great Sanhedrin (Jerusalem's 71-member court), explaining their roles in judgments and enforcing capital punishment for crimes like idolatry, fornication, bloodshed, and slander.

5. Modern Church Implications: Accountability and Community

Brent raises concerns about contemporary church structures lacking accountability:

Elle Grover Fricks [14:50]: "If we're thinking about what's happening in the church today and where are all the people going and what are the problems..."

They discuss the absence of robust accountability systems in modern, especially non-denominational, churches, which can lead to abuses of power and lack of protection for members.

6. Comparison of Jesus’s Teachings and Talmudic Traditions

The hosts contrast Talmudic teachings with Jesus’s approach, highlighting how Jesus reframes anger:

Elle Grover Fricks [18:25]: "How can we form communities in which these kinds of conversations do happen and happen in gentle, loving ways that don't destroy people and destroy relationships."

Brent adds:

Brent Billings [28:13]: "Jesus connects this level to specifically how you're talking about other people."

This comparison emphasizes Jesus’s focus on reconciliation and community-based solutions rather than punitive measures alone.

7. Miriam’s Story as a Parallel

Elle introduces the story of Miriam from Numbers 12, drawing parallels to the episode’s theme on anger:

Elle Grover Fricks [44:06]: "Miriam was confined to the outside place of the camp seven days."

They interpret Miriam's exclusion as a consequence of dishonoring speech, reinforcing the importance of maintaining community integrity through respectful communication.

8. Brene Brown’s Insights on Anger

Incorporating contemporary psychology, the hosts reference Brene Brown’s take on anger:

Elle Grover Fricks [24:50]: "Anger is a catalyst. Holding onto it will make us exhausted and sick."

This segment bridges ancient teachings with modern understandings of emotional health, advocating for transforming anger into positive actions like courage and compassion.

9. Gehenna: Understanding Its Context

The discussion shifts to the concept of Gehenna:

Elle Grover Fricks [20:36]: "So let's talk about Gehenna, which is not a hot tub. Where is Gehinom, Marty, and what are its distinguishing features?"

Brent elaborates on Gehenna's historical and geographical context:

Brent Billings [42:08]: "The north side of Jerusalem where a lot of everything... is now a residential district and valley."

They clarify that Gehenna represents a place of exclusion rather than eternal damnation, aligning it with ritual purity and community boundaries.

10. The Role of Language in Dehumanization

Elle emphasizes the power of words in maintaining or destroying community:

Elle Grover Fricks [30:37]: "Jesus cares about us dishonoring one another... how are we stewarding our relationships?"

Brent concurs, linking above teachings to the importance of language:

Brent Billings [32:24]: "I just know how deeply that urge lives inside of me... the word 'dishonor.'"

This segment highlights the ethical responsibility in communication to preserve community harmony.

11. Conclusion: Reconciliation and Healthy Anger

The episode concludes with reflections on building supportive communities:

Elle Grover Fricks [51:00]: "Do not focus on the discipline nature of this. Focus on the invitation of Jesus, which is, watch our anger, watch our tongue."

Brent and Marty reinforce the need for accountability, restorative practices, and the transformative potential of addressing anger constructively.

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Key Takeaways:

• Jesus’s Teachings on Anger: Beyond prohibiting anger, Jesus calls for community-based accountability and reconciliation.

• Talmudic Insights: Anger disrupts personal, scholarly, and divine relationships, emphasizing the need for emotional control.

• Modern Implications: Contemporary churches can learn from historical accountability structures to foster safer and more supportive communities.

• Power of Language: Words can either harm or heal community bonds, necessitating mindful and respectful communication.

• Transforming Anger: Leveraging anger as a catalyst for positive change aligns with both ancient teachings and modern psychological insights.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brent Billings [06:14]: "Jesus is raising the bar and he's treating all of God's people as having authority and ministry in a different way."

• Elle Grover Fricks [24:50]: "Anger is a catalyst. Holding onto it will make us exhausted and sick."

• Brent Billings [28:13]: "Jesus connects this level to specifically how you're talking about other people."

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Further Resources:

• Episode Transcript: Available upon request or through the podcast's official channels.

• Bible Hub Interlinear: For those interested in reading along with an interlinear Bible, Bible Hub offers comprehensive resources.

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Connect with The BEMA Podcast:

• Website: [e-mail]

• Support: Listeners are encouraged to support the ministry through donations and participation in discussion groups.

Transcript

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Foreign.

[Marty Solomon]

This is the Baymaw Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are joining L. Grover Fricks to consider Jesus's teaching on anger through a Talmudic lens.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Woohoo.

[Brent Billings]

I don't know if anybody needs the back story of how we put these series together, but sometimes the person leading a series, in this case l will send out a. Like, here's a roadmap. And what episodes are people interested in? And I looked at one on anger and I went, okay, Lord, here I am. Send me. I had to do an anger management class in high school because in a basketball game, I kicked a basketball up to the roof and knocked a light fixture out of the gymnasium.

[Marty Solomon]

Nice.

[Brent Billings]

During a basketball game. Technical foul. Anger management class taught by the head coach himself.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Wow.

[Marty Solomon]

Did they also promote you to kicker on the football team?

[Brent Billings]

I mean, I already was, but I've learned and grown so much since then. But I would still say anger has. I could probably learn some things from Elle today. So I'm here. I'm ready.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Incredible. Thanks for volunteering as tribute. Now we can pretend nobody else has a problem. It's just you.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

What position did you play on your team?

[Brent Billings]

Oh, which one? Basketball or football?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Basketball.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, basketball. I was a center because I was in a small rural town and I was 6 foot 4. So tall as you're gonna get.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, well, let's go. No more sports. This isn't a Reed and Marty episode. Absolutely, Ellen. Marty and Brent episode. No more sports, only the Bible. And this week we're reading from an interlinear rather than a translation. I'll talk about why later. I promise it's still intelligible, but if you went to read along somewhere, Bible Hub has a great interlinear and you can just type in the verse and the word interlinear and it will right up take us away, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

All right. Matthew 5:21. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, you will not murder. Whoever murders now will be liable to the judgment. I however, say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to the judgment. Whoever now shall say to his brother Raqa is liable to the Sanhedrin. Whoever now shall say more is liable to the Gehenna of fire.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Incredible. Okay, so racha there means empty headed. It's Aramaic, as in you weren't thinking versus more is actually just calling somebody a fool.

[Marty Solomon]

Did not even consider that that wasn't an English word.

[Brent Billings]

I'd like to say I knew what was going on, but I didn't either. I was so confused. I'm like, this interlinear sucks. I know. There you go.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

There we are. Okay, so why are we here? What has Jesus been talking about? Where are we in the Sermon on the Mount? So we started in the Beatitudes. We had blessings. Jesus is bringing people into the household of God, as the patriarch right of the household does. He's grabbing a hold of people's destinies, launching them in a new direction. We talked about different ways to look at the Beatitudes, but that was one of them. Then he tells his people, the members of this household, to be Torah in the world, be the light and the salts. Right as he says, we talked about that being Torah. And then he says not even a little bit of Torah has been taken away. And then with his Amen section, that Marty has no idea what we're. What I'm referencing because he has not heard that episode. But with that phrase Amen that we talked about last week, Jesus is still stating that he is the divine authority to make these claims. That was a big reveal. That's a spoiler. I'm so sorry, Marty.

[Brent Billings]

It's okay. I'm following. I'm following so far.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, great. Now we get to the classic passages where Jesus appears to be raising the bar of these commandments that have not been reduced, have not been taken away, the boxes aren't checked, and he's going to move through these different classic sins. And the first one is anger. So in this particular episode, we're going to look at each different line of these two verses. There's four lines. There's the you have heard it said. And then there's number two, I have a first say to you. And then the third line is, whoever now shall say. And then we have that repeated again, but with the more word. So one at a time. But before we get into that, how have y'all heard this taught before? Anything that's really stuck with you in a positive way, maybe something that. That hasn't stuck with you in such a positive way, or just haven't heard it preached on that much or taught.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, for me, I've always looked at it as this legalistic thing, like, okay, well, angry, like I'm liable to judgment. But then as long as I don't, like, elevate it to these curse words. And it's like, I think at some point I'm like, well, I've never even heard of that word, so I'm not saying that to anybody.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Literally. Let's Just say, racha, you're okay.

[Marty Solomon]

Right? Right. I mean, I definitely thought that when I was much younger.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, sure, that makes sense.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. But then, you know, it's just always like, well, what is that line? And just always like, trying to figure out how I can get away with whatever I'm trying to do and not actually qualify for the judgment.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure. Taking it seriously, though. We love that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. I think when I. If I go back to where, you know, when I was growing up and we learned about these teachings, it was always raised to me. You used the phrase a moment ago as a raising of the bar, which just like, heaped on. I know. I spent a long time in session three railing against that idea that Jesus is raising the bar. What it did for me in those contexts was that, like, well, if the law was hard enough, like Torah was hard enough, according to Christians, impossible to follow. So now Jesus is raising the bar, so now it's even harder. So now I'm like, guilty of murder when I'm.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

When I'm, you know, Angry basketball.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And I'm like, well, now Jesus, I can't even attain to like. It was just like things were getting further and further and further. Jesus was getting greater and greater, but I was getting further and further. Then I think as I started to learn from others and appreciating some of those, you know, what Jesus is doing when it comes to fulfilling and interpreting the law. He's interpreting the law for us. Not necessarily taking us somewhere new, but trying to tell us what was always intended. I think of Jacob Neusner's book, A rabbi talks with Jesus and he unpacks so many of these sayings in there and make so many of the same connections you're making essentially the Torah. Like, what we're seeing here is Jesus standing in the place of Torah, calling us towards what they used to assign to Torah were being assigned to. He's assigning it as the authority himself, the Amen, if I'm hearing you correctly.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Indeed.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. So I think that's. That was super helpful as I started to learn some of those things.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah. I think sometimes that unattainable factor is really driven in because it's a Jesus salvation, eternal destination, maximal approach and less on how we should actually live because it's like, well, you're gonna fail at it anyway, so just know that you'll never do it. Right. And that's why you need Jesus.

[Brent Billings]

Right, Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Versus how can we walk in the path of Jesus? How is he interpreting, shedding new light on what the character of God has always been right.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, let's find out. Our first line here is, you have heard it said to the ancients, ding, ding, ding. Interesting. Rabbinical conversation has been ongoing. Scriptural conversation, interpretation as a tradition. Very interesting.

[Brent Billings]

Or or so says Matthew.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

L or so says Matthew. What does he know? The ancients said, apparently, you will not murder. Whoever murders now will be liable to the judgment. So before we dig into anything convicting. Ugh, gross. No one needs that. Right? About anger. What are these things potentially that the ancients have said about murder? What's recorded anyway in Talmud that they did used to say about anger specifically and murder? Number one. The thing that we always hear now is also entitlement. The problem with murder is that you're besmirching the image of God the king. And we are little royal statues of God the king. And it's the same as graffiti ing the image of the king. Right? We don't do that. We honor people as their little vessels, little royal images of God Number two. Maybe more surprising, I don't know, maybe there are people out there who've been scratching their heads about this one. But what happens if a person commits manslaughter in a city of refuge? You know, I'm a sucker for these fun facts, so I apologize.

[Brent Billings]

They're already in a city of refuge and they commit manslaughter.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, so not they commit manslaughter and run to a city of refuge. Right, but they're in a city of refuge.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, all right, I'm following big questions. He's in danger because this family can come and extract their revenge. So what would happen is the priest would exile the killer from the city until the time of the death of the priest. Which of course begs the question, but what if the priest isn't that old or is very old, rather, and the guy is only exiled for a year or two? Well, we have a solution. Upon his return to the city, at the death of the old priest to Talmidim would be assigned to the manslaughter to keep the avenger of blood away from him. This is sick, in my opinion, in a good way. I want the book or the show or the movie to see like buff disciples of Torah. Like guarding a murderer. This is the fun fact section. So if you're rolling your eyes, we're almost done. Only two more capital punishment. Little note was supposed to be super rare. You were never supposed to see it in your lifetime. It required so many witnesses and a whole bunch of proofs and hoops to jump through that. Akiva used to say, if I had been in the Sanhedrin, a single soul would have never been put to death. And then lastly, a nice famous little quote to munch on regarding murder from Telmat Tractate Sanhedrin, which never fails to slap, says, whoever destroys a single life is considered by scripture to have destroyed the whole world. And whoever saves a single life is considered by scripture to have saved the whole world. So just some scene setting for what was in the air about murder. Before we see what Jesus says about anger.

[Brent Billings]

I'm tracking.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I like this. Great.

[Brent Billings]

Mainly the buff. The buff. Bodyguards in the Sea of Refuge. I'm totally there. Totally down.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That's right. Who are disciples? Just hoping movie gets optioned. Okay, number two. I, however, say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to the judgment. So quick little note here. Some translations have angry with his brother, without cause will be liable. That's in the KJV and the nkjv and some more fringe translations which translate from the kjv. The earliest manuscripts, which contain that edition of Without Cause, which in my opinion is pretty theologically important, don't show up until the 5th century. And everything that predates that Vatican Codex, Sinai Codex does not include without cause, which I kind of love that some angry scribe out there was like, surely not. That couldn't be. What if. What if they really deserved it? Right? Okay, so it doesn't have that without cause. Just says. I, however, say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment. So what does liable to judgment mean? How is it different from the lines that are coming up? Liable to Sanhedrin, liable to Gehenna. Why do we have these distinctions? Is it just a poetic, like three things in a row that all mean the same thing? Well, this is what my research has uncovered. So there's a little Sanhedrin and a great Sanhedrin. The little Sanhedrins are in different districts and they only have 23 members in them. They're courts. We're in urban areas. And they are the ones that are referred to as quote, unquote, judgment. It's local legal judgment. It's not punitive punishment like we might presume in our culture, but it's kind of the replacement at that time for the single judge who used to sit in the city gate or under the tree like we see in the Book of Judges. It's now a whole court with 23 members.

[Brent Billings]

Would this have been called the bait, Dean?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure. Yes, yes. That's the name for their court.

[Brent Billings]

We ran into that in our chosen commentary, where they depict some of these local magistrates, rulers, judges, whatever, and the councils that they were representing. And they called them the Av Beit Deen or something like that. Father of the House of Judgment.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Incredible.

[Brent Billings]

So I guess that would make that make sense. I can picture that in my mind. I would have anyway, but I can picture it even now. Better.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sure. Thanks to Dallas Jenkins. So that's the little Sanhedrin, then in the next line. We have great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. It has 71 members, and they're in charge of different things, but their primary judgment is supposed to be that they're in charge of judging priests who have committed capital crimes. What are capital crimes? Great question. Idolatry, fornication, bloodshed, and slander. So whoopsie daisies, social media and our culture in general, where slander is, like, you know, heroized. That's not a word. But now it is. We would never put it on the list with the other three, but Paul does in the apostles. So maybe we should catch up.

[Brent Billings]

Sure. That's what I was just thinking of. Yeah, absolutely. That fits that. Okay. Yep.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So therefore, if we plug this context into what Jesus is saying. Jesus says, whoever is angry with their brother or their sister goes before the local judgment, their local 23 member court. Whoever says empty headed goes to the Sanhedrin. And then we'll get to Gehenna later.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, I see what you're doing. Okay. Because Jesus has. Yeah, he has like this triptych.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Whoever says, Raqa Sanhedrin.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

Whoever says. I'm totally lost in my notes. Yep. More. Okay. The Gehenna fire. Got it, got it. Angry. Okay, Got it. Angry with brother to the small Sanhedrin, Raqqa to the large Sanhedrin. Got it. Okay. Love it. Playing with the cultural infrastructure they're used to.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right. So here he's just talking about anger. We're not at name calling yet. So what does Talmud say about anger? Earlier, we were talking about murder, but in general, this is out of Leviticus 19. These are the general lessons about anger. Number one, they say that Moshe, the most revered and honored man and rabbinic tradition fell into error out of anger. And it was anger, therefore, that kept him from entering the promised land. Number two, direct quote, if a scholar becomes angry, his learnedness leaves him. If he is a prophet, his prophecy leaves him. Number three, he who is angry before him, even the Shekhinah, the spirit of God, is esteemed for nothing. Number four, why Was the second temple destroyed because there was groundless hatred? And number five, God loves three. The one who is not angry, the one who does not get drunk, and the one who does not insist on his own way. So I think some of us who could grow in being slow to anger could take this particular voice at the table to heart. Right. The Talmudic approach we're going to expand on and talk about from Jesus perspective. But I still think this Talmudic wisdom is worth sitting with for a while. That they say you can't lead, you can't study, you can't prophesy, you can't honor the Holy Spirit. You can't dwell next to God if you're being angry. And some of us have big egos and big senses of entitlement and big senses of, well, this is the way that things should be. It behooves those of us to probably spend some. Spend some time meditating on. On these teachings, which, by the way, I was planning on saying that before you, like, squarely put yourself in the car.

[Brent Billings]

I was gonna say, easy, easy.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Sheesh. So sorry. Oh, no.

[Brent Billings]

Squarely with our egos and our blood. I was like, bam. Right hook, left uppercut, body shot. Body shot. Wow.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Elle sent us this. This email a full 24 hours ago. She had this all planned out.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I did, and I wrote it way before 24 hours.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just saying we have. We have documentated proof that. Yeah, documentated. What am I talking about?

[Brent Billings]

That was great.

[Marty Solomon]

We have documentation.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I'm just going to scoot along.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I'm just going to hope that I don't. I'm not guilty of whatever the next number two, number three section here. I'm. I don't call anybody raka. So, I mean, this is going. Have any relevance. I'll just sit and I'll just sit on number one. I'm sure the next one's going to.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Be not applicable at all. Totally perfect. Okay, so how does Jesus work with this Talmudic teaching? Right. If he's not working with it explicitly, how is what he says different or the same? How can we contrast these two? What we can notice, I think, is Jesus differs and that he does not say that whoever is merely angry shall be bound for the local Sanhedrin research says that anger itself is the emotion we feel when something gets in the way of a desired outcome or when we believe that there's a violation of the way things should be. So the goal of following Jesus is not to become a serene, emotionless Cloud, because Jesus was not and is not a serene, emotionless cloud. So if we spend a minute with those who have lots of anger on the other side, to people who have spent their whole life training themselves to not have any anger at all or emotion at all whatsoever, we might also spend a minute in curiosity noticing whether we're using that emotionlessness to distance ourself from the issues. Drop us up in the false safety of disconnection. Those are all coping strategies, right? We've chosen to do them for a reason. Maybe they make us feel more rational or more safe or more competent to deal with the issues at hand. But I think that ultimately it's a coping strategy that takes us further away from the heart of God because we see the biblical prophets react, reflecting God's anger with injustice and oppression all the time, and it's. That's portrayed as just not unjust, right? So Jesus departs a little bit from the Talmudic emphasis to never be angry because God gets angry and we're made in his image.

[Brent Billings]

Amen, Jesus. Anger is good.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But what does Jesus say?

[Marty Solomon]

Careful with that word. Amen, Marty. You haven't heard that episode yet.

[Brent Billings]

So good. So good. Okay.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

What Jesus does say is that whoever is angry with his brother or sister is liable to the little Sanhedrin. So that AKH word in Aramaic and in Hebrew, literally translated brother. In Talmudic literature, it's a brother or a sister, but it's also a neighbor, member of your community. So why is Jesus telling us to take our anger issues to a judge if it's with someone in our immediate community? Because if we, any of us, have an issue with someone in our immediate community, and if, returning to that earlier definition of anger, you believe that there's a violation of the way things should be, then we ought to, as people of God, be working together to fix that violation, to put the world back together. And we are invited to do that through mutual collaboration and thus reconciliation, Right? So if we're angry that our cattle, our neighbor's cattle, is grazing in our territory, we're supposed to take it to the judge and figure it out and work toward a solution. And I think that we really miss out on this kind of relationship glue and societal glue when our only avenues to deal with our aggression are passive aggression, simmering hatred, bitterness, resentment, all of those things. And so Jesus points us toward community and getting community help with our emotions and our issues and our relationships.

[Brent Billings]

I think this seems to fit with what I would understand as a rabbinical teaching around the love your neighbor as Yourself out of Leviticus. Like we're familiar with that verse and the teaching of Jesus. I think we often think of it in like this ability abstract, like kind of like this out there, high level. But in Leviticus it comes as the kind of the final statement of a you should not hate your brother. You have to put words to your problems, your anger, your offenses. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Like the act of love is in not harboring hatred and resentment. And I think that works, I mean that works cleanly here with what Jesus is saying here.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Absolutely, totally.

[Marty Solomon]

And this little Sanhedrin is going to be made up of people from the community where they're doing the judgment.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right, Right.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

And I feel like with that many people and with as small as the communities were, like what are the chances that one of your family members isn't off on that?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right. So when that ends up happening then is because they know you, they're like, Steve, that isn't actually your land, man. We all know where your pasture boundaries are. What are you talking about? Do you have a need? Do you not have enough grazing land for your cattle this year? Do you have something that you need help with and you're lashing out because of it? Okay, let's come alongside you and address that need instead. Right?

[Marty Solomon]

Love that.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, Steve.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, Steve.

[Marty Solomon]

What kind of rapper name is Steve?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, Brene Brown quote here. I know we're fans, but got to gotta bring her up when we're talking about anger. Dr. For Napron, it is critical to recognize that maintaining any level of rage, anger or contempt over a long period of time is not sustainable. Anger is a catalyst. Holding onto it will make us exhausted and sick. Internalizing anger will take away our joy and spirit. Externalizing anger will make us less effective in our attempts to create change and forge connection. It's an emotion that we need to transform into something life giving. Courage, love, change, compassion, justice. Sometimes anger can mask a far more difficult emotion like grief, regret or shame. And we need to set it aside to dig into what we're really feeling. But either way, anger is a powerful catalyst, but a life sucking companion. I know you love it when people read really long quotes to you. It's your favorite thing, Marty.

[Brent Billings]

My favorite thing. Luckily I really like Brene Brown, so work. Worth it.

[Marty Solomon]

Phew.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, so Jesus therefore is helping us forge a way to help folks move through their anger in healthy ways, make their communities better and reconcile afraid connections. Which plays pretty well in concert with the rest of his teachings. Always handy. Okay, our next verse says whoever now shall say to his brother Raca is liable to the Sanhedrin. So circling back to the great Sanhedrin Center, Slim, and the main thing that I said about it, right, it's judging the capital crimes. Of whom?

[Brent Billings]

The priests?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, the priests. What is so great about having a system to keep the priests accountable and in check? It keeps the whole religious system and all of the congregations, all of the gatherings all across the land safe when they have a system which holds the leaders to account. I think it's worth mentioning and taking a sec to notice that one of the greatest dangers for the American church in specifically non denominational realms, which is the biggest denomination, is non denominational. Throw ecumenical in there too. But is that we do not have a lot of accountability, a lot of safety built into our system regarding holding leaders in the church to account and for crimes, actual crimes, not just like church hurt. People talk a lot about church hurt. Sometimes they do in a incredulous way or a tired way. And yes, that certainly happens, but there's also lots of crimes that do happen. Fraud, underage propositions, abuse, sexual harassment, which is a federal crime, embezzlement. Right, the list goes on. You can do any kind of Google search you want and you'll find folks also inside denominations, right? Denominations don't totally save people from this kind of abuse of leadership. And yet within the biblical system, the system of Jesus's time, they had an authority structure of people who were not peers, who were trained and competent, and their full time job was to sit in judgment over folks who had been found liable to a crime. So that's the first thing I want to take a second for, is how, if we're thinking about what's happening in the church today and where are all the people going and what are the problems. But then also how can we move forward and craft a better system? How might we figure out how to include systems of safety, systems of accountability systems which protect people better than the kind of wild west that's out there at the moment in terms of holding church leaders to account for their crimes?

[Brent Billings]

Well, and what I think I see Jesus doing, and I may be jumping ahead in some of your notes too, but it feels like when I remember you talking about this Talmudically, a lot of it was connected to like language, like the language that they were using, the way that they were speaking about other people, slander, the things that were making that list.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

And it feels like Jesus connects this level to specifically how you're talking about other people. Like the term raqqa and stuff like that. So not just. Not just crimes, but almost like a proactive. Not just a reactive fence, but a proactive. How are we engaging other people?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right. Are you honoring the people that you are called to lead? Whoa. We cross the bar. We're not committing actual federal crimes. Yay.

[Brent Billings]

Right, Right.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Bars in the basement. Next. Are we honoring our people in their. Yeah, big questions.

[Marty Solomon]

So the Sanhedrin is the accountability system for the priests, but then whoever says raqqa is liable to that group as well, or is that. Whoever within the group of priests is liable to.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

What an incredible transition, Brent. Oh, thank you. Thank you for being the wind in our sails pushing us along here. Because it is intriguing that Jesus appears to say whoever. Whosoever. Whomever. I think it's whoever. Whoever does this. They go to this thing that's supposed to be primarily for priests. Almost as if, ding, ding, ding. We're a kingdom of priests. Almost as gonna say that, yeah, we have the priesthood of all believers. If you speak Christianese, traditional theological terms.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Almost as if there isn't a different group of rules for the priests and the peasants. We're going to talk about Jesus raising the bar. Right? He's raising the bar and that he's treating all of God's people as having authority and ministry in a different way than perhaps they were imagining at the time. Right now, we're going to talk about the. The dishonoring somebody part, the raka part specifically. So you want to throw your question in here, Brent Billings.

[Marty Solomon]

I just want to know how common is this word? Like, how often were people running around using this?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I could be wrong. I want to postulate that it's not about the word specifically. It's not like a bad word in English, and that we have, I don't know, four main cuss words that we're not supposed to say if we're from, you know, mainstream Christian culture or if.

[Marty Solomon]

We'Re on broadcast television or whatever.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right. Yes. I would postulate, though, again, I'd love to find research saying otherwise, that Jesus cares about us dishonoring one another. As a general way that we use our voice and our authority in our time, how are we stewarding our relationships? Are we doing so full of dishonor and making light of someone? Which in Hebrew, the word for. To make light of, opposite of. To make heavy of. Right. The kavod, the honor, the glory word. The opposite of that. To make light of is the word for curse. It's a light word for curse. So in America, in our Century. Right. If we had written this particular verse, we'd probably have written it like, whoever dishonors his neighbor through his speech is actually really cool and probably right about everything they said and definitely shouldn't have to talk to anyone about their problems. Like, we see somebody say something nasty about somebody else on the Internet, and we're like, yes, somebody gets it. Repost. But. So we are miles away in our culture from any kind of adherence to the whole book of James teaching on the tongue, from the proverbs, from Jesus's commandment here, from Paul's shoving slander, and the way we speak about one another in his big list of, hey, these are ways of living that are not in accordance to the calling to which we have been called. Our culture is so Greek that owning people in the comments is what earns us a trophy. Right. And we all talk about it and say, oh, I said, blah, blah, blah. And everybody goes, oh, that was so clever. Right. It's the opposite teaching in Scripture.

[Brent Billings]

I just know how deeply that urge lives inside of me. I would hate to know how that would play out if I wasn't me. And I don't mean that in, like, a why me? Like, I'm. But the only thing that stops me half the time is because of the role that I have or the public place that I have. Because, man, do I want to just really let somebody have it in the comments for the purpose of, like, making them look stupid. Like, literally the word you're using there, dishonor.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Brent Billings]

And how much more for any of us that are in places of leadership or have a priestly role, or is that all of us as body of. Of believers and a kingdom of priests? Yeah, I just know how. So, man, shoot. Conviction found me in the next section as well. Darn it.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. So conviction. I appreciate the explanation of all that, and I totally affirm, Like, I think that is what Jesus is getting at. It's not the specific word. I'm just trying to understand. Like, when Jesus uses that word as his example, is the whole crowd feeling convicted by that? Or is it like, a few people who are, like, they don't even want to admit that they've used it. I'm just trying to get a sense of, like, what is the weight of this word?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, like, if Jesus would have been giving that teaching and he said the F word versus idiot, like, that would have hit different. Right?

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, right. All postulation here. You need to give me a week to go and get into the primary sources and then come back.

[Marty Solomon]

You're always welcome to follow up at any point in any later episodes.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

So thank you. I know the recording schedule is so loosey goosey and has so much time for flair. However, my postulation would be twofold. One on the Roman side. It's a primary mechanism of the oppressor to dehumanize the ones being oppressed. See this in culture today. We see it all the way back in Exodus when Pharaoh is speaking about God's people and he immediately starts name calling and comparing them to creepy crawly things. It's an essential tool in dehumanization and as a step to violence, is degrading somebody else. And then I would also suggest that it's probably also going on in the other side. Right. He uses an Aramaic word here rather than a. A Greek word, which is why in our Bibles it's often left as saying raka. Sometimes our translations take a second. But I think he's using it because he's also worried about the oppressed. Because the oppressed, just by being oppressed, are not morally, you know, superior, innocent beings. But rather so often when you are the butt of the joke all the time, you become the person who wants to co opt the language and start shoving it at the other person saying, I'm not that you're that. Nuh, you. Right. Like we see toddlers do. So I think that's why he flips into Aramaic to make sure that the people who feel like no, I get to. Because I know what that soldier over there did at the market on Tuesday. I saw it. And he deserves this word. And so Jesus uses the Aramaic to say no, also you, I think, to his oppressed population.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, yeah, I think that's a great point and very consistent with what I think we see in the Sermon on the Mount. And that's hard. That's hard. Like the Sermon on the Mount is not. It doesn't pick sights. It's scandalous and provocative for all of us to follow the Jesus way. Absolutely.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

And we love to come up with all sorts of reasons to excuse ourselves from that narrative. Right. To say, well, you don't understand, or that person's this way, or I'm just processing my feelings right now, etc. And Jesus calls us to a different way of living which has to start in the heart, which he'll say later.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, all right, I'm ready for more. Give me more. All right, give me more. I'll get angry and start calling you names.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Do we have hr?

[Marty Solomon]

Give me more or give me more? A.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Dishonoring you, dishonoring your cow.

[Marty Solomon]

I dishonor myself by making that joke.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I think you gained great honor, actually. You gained glory.

[Marty Solomon]

All right.

[Brent Billings]

So good.

[Marty Solomon]

Thank you.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, so we've been talking about cursing people, dishonoring people, making light of people. What does Jesus say when that's going on? Right. It's not just don't do it. He adds something to it. Right. Liable to the Sanhedrin. At least for me, it feels a little bit more punitive to have to travel down to Yerushalayim to stand before the big kahunas. Right. I think the goal there is still restoration more than condemnation. Right. It's a. We heard something in you that is so out of line with who you are, who God made you to be. You're calling to be a priest that you were willing to dishonor, honor somebody else in your speech. How are you doing? How can this be right? We never behave as if the person next to us is small and light. How could you be speaking that way? So for us, when we're translating, when we get our head into the present day and out of our happy little first century imaginations, this is challenging because for a lot of us, the closest parallel right jumps to, like, church leadership. If it's not just local people who know you really well and have wisdom. A lot of us have tough stories of church discipline or accountability. I know plenty of people who have been excommunicated, literally, who have been ostracized for things they did do and they didn't do. And so that's real, and it's not acceptable and it shouldn't be diminished. But I also think it behooves us that there's a function of community that we've lost when we only have this really scary, authoritarian church leadership model or nothing at all. Right. I think we lose the ability to engage in discipleship, right? In a gentle steering someone back onto the path of who they are and what is acceptable behavior and acceptable way to speak about one another. They had trusted individuals in their community who stood for wisdom, and they were appointed by the community. It wasn't just, you know, random guy in community group who's like, it's my job to show up and tell people that they're doing something wrong and I'm here to interfere. It reminds me of your teaching, Marty, on the elder seats, right? In the synagogue that you got to be asked to be in the elder seats. You don't just show up and decide. But how do we form communities in which these kind of conversations do happen and happen in gentle, loving ways that don't destroy people and destroy relationships. And how much do we not have this at all when we don't have community and our only community is sitting at home scrolling through TikTok or whatever social media, being like, yeah, totally to random people getting in fights with people who live thousands of miles away. Right in the comments. What kind of communities is Jesus calling us to form? And what could that look like?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Yep, I think it's well said.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

I have zero answers, by the way.

[Brent Billings]

That makes two of us.

[Marty Solomon]

That's not why we're here. We're here for questions.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, we just do the big shrug emoji and then fade into black. But if we never notice that we might have a problem and then we never start imagining a different way, then we'll stay the way we are and continue to speak about each other in terrible ways.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm just soaking in in my conviction over here.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, I'll leave. Leave you and the Holy Spirit to work that out. Thank you, Marty and I will go to point number three or the next line rather.

[Brent Billings]

By the time you're done, it's just going to be you soaking in your own conviction.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

By the time it's a big jacuzzi, there's a room for everybody. Okay. Whoever now shall say Moray is liable to the hot tub of fire. Just getting the Gehenna of fire. Okay, let's get it out of the way. If you are a person who wants to say what this means is that someone who calls someone else stupid is liable to hell except for the saving and redeeming work of Christ. That is excellent. That's great. I'm here for it. I believe there's room at the table for it. I champion you. I'm with you. I love that. As an interpretation, I'm still going to do something a little bit different which is hopefully also helpful and good and has truth. So let's talk about Gehenna, which is not a hot tub. Where is Gehinom, Marty, and what are its distinguishing features?

[Brent Billings]

Gehinom Valley of Hinnom or as Jeremiah referred to it, the valley of Ben Hinnom Valley right outside of Jerusalem would have been a more well known valley because of its location outside of Jerusalem. To the Never eat soggy waffles. Never eat the north side. The north side of Jerusalem. Sorry, I had to do my compass thing right there. Everybody right now is just like their mind is blown. Never eat soggy waffles. Yeah, that's how you remember Your compass directions, everybody.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

It's a good life. You know, Mandate.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, absolutely. Heard her hair first on the Bama podcast. So it's on like the north, the north side of. Of Jerusalem where a lot of everything. I mean, the trash dump, the place of refuse, maybe the sewage, drainage location, all of that. Today you drive the bus through and you make the joke like, hey, we're driving through hell right now. Wave. Because it's kind of like this location that is now a residential district and valley. You could still see the bottom of the valley there as you drive through it, but that would have been the location of what that valley was.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Yeah, if we had a video medium right now, everyone could enjoy me dancing to obviously, highway to Hell.

[Brent Billings]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, I want to zoom in on. Double click on that specific idea. Outside the camp, that's the function of what that is. If it's the valley of refuse, if it's a sewage valley, it's specifically the place that stuff flows out of camp. Very important. Not inside camp. It's outside the camp. I want to talk about another story where someone disdained someone else and called them a fool. Right. That's what more means. If we forgot. Raka is more like empty headed. More is more like you are a fool. So the difference is like you're acting dumb versus you are dumb. Right. And the passage I want to look at is from numbers 12. It's kind of lengthy, so I've chopped it into bits, chopped it into excerpts for Brent to read for us. I love this passage, which might be surprising, but let's look at it.

[Marty Solomon]

And this one is in the leb, and I wouldn't say chopped to bits. It looks like there's three sections. So, you know, you didn't. You didn't do too much work to it, you know.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

That's right.

[Marty Solomon]

Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the cushite woman whom he took, because he took a cushite wife. And they said, has Adonai spoken only through Moses? Has not Adonai also spoken through us? And Adonai heard it. Why were you not afraid to speak against my servant? Against Moses. And Adonai became very angry with them, and he went away. And the cloud departed from on the tent. And behold, Miriam was infected with a skin disease, white like snow. When Aaron turned toward Miriam, behold, she was afflicted with a skin disease. So Miriam was confined to the outside place of the camp seven days. And the people did not set out until Miriam was gathered.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Okay, we've got a lot of stuff Going on in this passage. It's really jam packed. So I invite, challenge everyone to peruse it on their own or in community. Even better. But right off the bat, what we see going on, God draws a line at racism and exclusion, right? We see that from the narrator. Narrator makes sure we know because he took a kushite wife, right in parentheses. That's powerful and compelling and worthy of its own episode, but culturally almost more important. And the part that I want to draw our attention to is the other element. And it's a conflict over authority. And we can see that rather than through the narrator, through the dialogue. So Miriam and Aharon say, has not God also spoken through us? And they're right. The answer is yes, because Miriam is called a prophet in Exodus. And God does speak to Aharon, especially in Leviticus. So yes, God does speak to them through them. So what? That's God's problem. We see God's problem in his response, in his words. He says, why were you not afraid to speak against Moshe? So it doesn't matter to God that they also have relationship with God. That doesn't make it okay in God's eyes to speak poorly against someone. Rightness and wrongness is not what's coming to play in their conversation. God doesn't, like, come down and make a ruling about intermarriage, right? That's not the point. The point for God in the issue, his business is how these two siblings are speaking to and about their brother. That's God's central concern. So what happens? Miriam is sent outside the tent, AKA not outside the tent. She's sent outside the camp, just like outside Jerusalem. That's where the other lepers are. Which we also know that that's where lepers hung out, right? As in GE hinnom, people who were cast out of the community. She was not cast out eternally. She was not cast out forever, but for seven days. If you're super upset that Aharon also didn't get kicked out, keep in mind that he was the one who had the ability to purify her and bring her back into the community. So that might be why he wasn't also sent out of the camp. But I think it's possible that Jesus had this story in mind when he's talking about anger, right? It's okay to be angry. It's even okay to be angry with someone. But we're supposed to seek out community authoritative wisdom. But what we don't get to do is speak in a way that diminishes Their being and their gifts from the beginning, they're made in the image of God, who's king. We do not get to degrade, we do not get to diminish other images of the king. And every time we dismiss or we scorn a fellow human being, whether it's in joke or jest or to our friends, the person's there or not, even if you are right and they are wrong, we are still told to guard our tongue or God might remove us.

[Brent Billings]

From that community, which I just keep hearing the connections. I know rabbinic commentary because of this story, connected. I don't know if I'm going to say this right, but Loshonora, like the evil speech, evil tongue, the result of that, they believe that's where leprosy came from. Or at least one of the judgments against that because of the Miriam story is leprosy and that exclusion outside of camp. So if I'm following Jesus's logic here, like, there is a. Like, it's growing. Like, if you don't deal with it at the anger level, it becomes dishonoring. If you don't deal with it at that level, it becomes this. Like, it's actually an attack on somebody meant to tear them down, like that kind of evil speech. And it's going from anger all the way down to that. Which is why the judgment talk is also increasing, because of the danger that's at play there. If I'm following the logic here, which.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Isn'T to say, of course, that when people have illnesses, it's because they have a right. I know you're not saying that. Just worth pointing out.

[Brent Billings]

Totally.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

But yet. And I think we're tempted to think, when we think about, like, dehumanizing another person, that that's a, like, scheme, a plot that we wake up in the morning and we're like, ooh, I really hate this political figure and this is what I'm gonna do. Or this person at church drives me nuts. Or I like this pastor, but I don't really like this pastor, whatever. Neighbor, family member. And that. That involves coming up with some, like, big speech you're gonna give to remove them from power and authority. But Jesus closes the gap in our imaginations to. It's just one word. One word is what it takes for God to say, I don't think so. And just like, he takes Cain out of that community for murdering his brother, he's also willing to take us out of community. Be like, nope, that's not how you talk about my kids.

[Brent Billings]

Yep.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Even if you're Right. And they're wrong. It's not what we do.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, totally.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Well, may the Holy Spirit tend to all of us and make us more aware of the words of our mouth, the meditations of our heart, and the typings on our phones.

[Brent Billings]

That's a really good teaching. And I appreciate you. I think my brain was making connections that I wasn't even explaining when I did the whole leprosy thing. So I appreciate you pointing, not saying the leprosy comes from that place, but the idea that gehenna outside of camp, like, there's a gravitas to that. Gehenna's outside of camp. Because in the rabbinic mind, Jesus is playing off of that regular rabbinic commentary of, well, what happens when you engage in actual demeaning speech? Each evil speech is you get removed from the community and placed outside of camp. So I went, oh, yeah, of course. When we get all hung up on the gehenna, the hell, you know, and we miss the larger impact of if we can deal with our anger in the midst of community, it sure is a whole lot better than being removed from community as a whole at the end of this whole thing. Absolutely.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, I like the idea of the Seven days thing. It's like, hey, that's not okay, and you're out, but it's not the end of the world. We're going to try to restore you.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

But if you just come back and if that's how you're going to live, then you're going to live outside the camp.

[Elle Grover Fricks]

Right. There's a process for coming back. It's not that the gates are shut on you forever, but you do need the help of a priest to come alongside you and check and do the work. And as part of that, you do get to come back.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. And lest anybody be thinking we're, like, saying that there's like a. Like, we're focusing on the process of how you discipline people. The greater issue being, like, what happens to our community relationships. Like, that's the. This stuff has ramifications. Like the way that we talk about each other, the way that we honor each other breaks community and distorts that. And we can fight to get those people back into community. We can do the work of restoring that. So don't focus on the discipline nature of this. Focus on the. The invitation of Jesus, which is, watch our. Watch our anger, watch our tongue. When you think about do not murder, you're like, oh, well, I've never murdered anybody. That's great. And Jesus is like, oh, hey, hold on a second because I think we murder people all the time on a different level. Well said. Jesus and l. Ah.

[Marty Solomon]

All right. Well, you can find more details about our [e-mail] you can get in touch with us there through the contact page. You can look for a discussion group in your area with our map. You can support our work. Everything we do is made possible by listeners who support us. And so we thank you for that. But thanks for joining us on the Baymont podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.