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- [00:00]
Elle
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Baymaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm joining L. Grover Fricks to reconsider the topic of reconciliation through a Talmudic lens, featuring Reid Dent.
- [00:18]
Reid Dent
Is that normal?
- [00:20]
Elle
It doesn't feel normal, no.
- [00:21]
Brent Billings
But, you know, you guys always get upset about how I put the names in order, so I had to put Elle's name in order, but I didn't know where else to put Reed.
- [00:28]
Elle
What I'm hearing is that Reid is gonna have a rap break.
- [00:31]
Reid Dent
Exactly. That was. I like being featured. It's like I'm on a track.
- [00:35]
Elle
All right, well, at any moment, that could happen. So stay on tenterhooks, everybody.
- [00:39]
Brent Billings
We're just trying different things till we find something that works.
- [00:42]
Elle
We are in the midst of this series, Talmudic Matthew or Talmudic conversation. St. Matthew. And we are at an episode titled reconciliation, because that's what we're going to talk about today. Brent Billings has a few verses to read from the leb for us. Take it away, Bren.
- [01:04]
Brent Billings
Therefore, if you present your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you. Leave your gift there before the altar, and first go be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your gift. Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny.
- [01:34]
Elle
Okay, sounds dire. Where are we in our flow? So a Sermon on the Mount. Jesus brings people into the household of God and the Beatitudes tells them to walk out. Torah says that none of it is done away with. Then with the amen episode, he claims divine authority for his interpretation, and then he digs in and. And he says that disdain for our neighbor, which is not worked out in community, is something which can ultimately force us outside of the camp of God. And he teaches us that if we have a problem with somebody else, what we want to do is find someone with wisdom who can arbitrate. So this verse is kind of the flip side, right? You don't necessarily have a problem with somebody else, but you know, or suspect that somebody else has a problem with you. And. And Jesus invites us into this concept of reconciliation. Big, beautiful, sweeping topic which we could just muse about for a full hour, I think, right? We have the story of Isaac at the beginning of the story with the Wells, we're called Ministers of reconciliation much later by Paulos. So, Reid, do you mind walking us through reconciliation? What does it mean? Why does it matter? Why are we called that? What's it all for?
- [02:55]
Reid Dent
So I only have one hour. When I think of reconciliation, the first picture that comes to my mind is the embrace between the prodigal son and his father. And that is what I think reconciliation kind of is at its core is. I would call it an embrace or an active embrace, but not just like in a vacuum. It's something that is moved toward. It's something that is regained. So I think, you know, we think about enemies, people who have wounded us, and this. I want to. I want to say, like, I. I will probably naturally, accidentally just talk sort of in individual terms, but this is definitely much bigger than an individual issue.
- [03:43]
Elle
Right.
- [03:44]
Reid Dent
It is also a people issue, a community issue.
- [03:48]
Elle
Right.
- [03:48]
Reid Dent
But, you know, if I have an enemy, somebody who has wounded me, somebody whom I have wounded, there is like, we're in a state of hostility. And then I think about moving towards a state of neutrality. And I think the act of forgiveness can kind of get us there, where I'm, like, letting go of basically, like, the right or the desire for retribution or to, like, get even. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I have come to a place of, like, full embrace with that person. And then I think of reconciliation as that movement from neutrality to that, to that active embrace. And it begins with, not counting trespasses, it begins with forgiveness. But I. I think. And I. I am sensitive or mindful of people who, you know, maybe they have enemies and they have wounds. And I don't think the biblical mandate is like, well, just get over it, dummy, and go and, like, be best friends with that person. I think reconciliation is maybe the, like, that's the far end. That's what we hope to get to. But it's not the same thing as. As forgiveness. And I. I think core to reconciliation is an understanding that, like, you know, if I want to use the word, I guess I'll use the word salvation or shalom, like PC, you know, your question. What is the point? I think shalom is the point.
- [05:22]
Elle
Yeah, totally.
- [05:23]
Reid Dent
But that. That salvation is a corporate phenomenon. And so there can't be any peace for me unless there's also peace for you in the end.
- [05:30]
Elle
Yeah.
- [05:31]
Reid Dent
And so we have to work to be at peace with one another. And I. And yeah, I think that that that whole, like, the shalomic sort of everything is in its right place, that we as humanity, we sort of. I think Ultimately, the hope. The picture is we go to the house of the Lord together, and that includes whoever I have been divided from, whoever there is, where there's a rift, you know, and so the reconciliation. The point is for the. For us all to be reconciled together. I think you also mentioned the idea that we are ministers of that.
- [06:07]
Elle
Yeah.
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Reid Dent
From those Pauline passages, which I think are so beautiful and so great.
- [06:12]
Elle
Yeah. Yes.
- [06:13]
Reid Dent
And have their roots in this idea that there is kind of a. Maybe a hostility. He's talking about, you know, Jews and Gentiles, and there is this division, there's this hostility that has. God is reconciling all of us together to himself. And so I think the idea is, like, if we have. He says, you who are once far off have been reconciled. And I think there's like this. This beautiful personal foundation motivation of, like, if I. If I was far off and I have seen or experienced that reconciliation, then as that works its way into me and that meaning kind of gets all the way down, then I can't harbor animosity forever towards my enemies. That ultimately the hope is there is a desire for us to. To somehow actively embrace each other, which I think is like, the most radical element of Jesus teaching, in my personal opinion, that, like, that there could be not just like an uneasy Cold War kind of peace, but that there might be, like, an active, wholehearted, embracing reconciliation between people who had hostility towards one another. And that we are called to then be ambassador. Like, here's Paul uses the word ambassador. I think.
- [07:33]
Elle
Yeah.
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Reid Dent
You know, you. You received this message. Now you are like, you are a representative of this thing, and so go and. And, like, be that message to your own people. Help. I think part of being a minister, too, is we help mediate that between other people where we can.
- [07:48]
Elle
Right.
- [07:49]
Reid Dent
Where we encounter it. And we. We encourage reconciliation and grace and mercy, which is a really hard thing. It's a really hard thing. My. My wife is a. My wife is a. A professional counselor, and she said to me one time that the word that she thinks most people need to hear or to be challenged to do is forgiveness. But it's like the last word that she ever wants to say because people have such a visceral reaction against it. And like, reconciliation, I would say even all the more that, like, no, we want you to actually love each other. So there's just a little bit of spitballing, I guess, on reconciliation. Does that get us anywhere near the mark?
- [08:27]
Elle
It does. I love it. I hear you saying that there's, like, an internal state and that's forgiveness, right? That's something between you and the Lord and working out, pulling that poison out of your own bloodstream. And then the external expression of that is reconciliation. And when we do the work, the telos of reconciliation, that works itself out in a cosmic way, not just between relationships and community.
- [08:56]
Reid Dent
Yeah, spot on.
- [08:57]
Elle
I love that I told everybody Reed was going to do his thing, and then we could hang up and say.
- [09:03]
Reid Dent
Well, I doubt that.
- [09:07]
Elle
Thank you. Laying the groundwork, setting, setting our clocks aright, thinking about, why is this important? Before we see exactly what Jesus says in his particular teaching, in his particular context, about how to do reconciliation, which is cool. We're going to throw some Talmud in there, as we always do, but we're going to take this thing phrase by phrase, not even verse by verse, phrase by phrase. So here's our little walkabout. The first line is, when you are bringing your doron, a doron is a gift of honor is what that means. And it can apply to, like, gifts that are brought to the treasury. It's used, it's the word for the gifts that the magi bring. But he's going to narrow that scope with the next phrase of to the altar. But just one little barb. Even before we start out here, Jesus is presuming that we are engaged in public, corporal worship of God, that we're bringing our gifts, right? That's the presumption in this passage. He's designed to be part of our regular rhythm, right? A temporal landmark, social landmark, where we get to check ourselves and be like, wait, am I in shalom like you said? Reid, am I in wholeness with everyone in my community? So little question to start off. Are we in a physical worshiping community where we regularly bring gifts, do communion, whatever that looks like, and if not, what kind of landmarks do we have that's going to be different for everybody? But just want to toss in there that that's Jesus's presumption, is that we're meeting together in worship and that that would be part of our landscape.
- [10:58]
Brent Billings
So if it is the presumption, then why is it translated if?
- [11:02]
Elle
I think there is an if when ness do it. And I think there could be something prophetic in that if. Something sassy about that if, you know, like, if you're bothering to come and show up to the worship of God, make sure you're doing XYZ first. Make sure that you're not sowing contention everywhere you go, and then you bother showing up. So I think it's a little Bit of sass, potentially.
- [11:30]
Reid Dent
I think it's also possible that just where it says, therefore, if you present your gift at the altar and there, remember, like, the if might be applying to the second part. Like, Right. If you're there. And it's a compound, like, phrase here. So not just if you're there, but if you're there and you remember that you have something or that someone has something against you.
- [11:50]
Elle
Right. Yeah, Never mind. I like what Reid says better. Strike that. Moving on.
- [11:56]
Brent Billings
Well, no, I think there could be. I mean, when you're in front of an audience that you would make an assumption about, and then you say it as if it's not necessarily an assumption, I think that cuts a little deeper. So if he's trying to, like, convict the people about what they're doing and how they're engaging this practice, like, yeah, if you do that, it's like, what are you talking about? If we all do that. Jesus. Yeah, I can see the sass in it.
- [12:21]
Reid Dent
Yeah, both.
- [12:22]
Elle
And thanks, Brent. Never mind. My point was great.
- [12:26]
Brent Billings
Never mind the nevermind.
- [12:29]
Elle
Okay, next phrase is to the altar. So if done is more general. It totally would have worked if Jesus had said, if you're bringing your Daron to the temple, or if you're bringing your gift to the inner courts, it's where you deposit your tithes. So why did he narrow it down to the altar specifically? Well, if we've succeeded in our eyes, not glazing over when we're doing our annual Bible reading plan, which might be helped by listening to the text on us podcast, you might know or remember. Ding, ding, ding. Another pen there. Exodus 20:25 and other passages has specific law that says, if you have brandished iron over the altar, you have profaned it. And then Makiltah, Exodus. So expansion on Exodus says, from undamaged stones you shall build the altar, that is from stones that bring peace. The context of this is when we actually dig into the chapters which involve the building of the tabernacle, we see all sorts of symbolic, spiritual imagery. And where God has very specific ways that he wants his dwelling place to be put together. And it's not just because God is a incredible artisan, though he certainly is. The words that are employed for, like, the weaving of the curtains is, they must be bound in friendship. So he has all of these kind of mundane feeling instructions, which to us just feels like reading the longest IKEA manual ever. Right? Where you're like, I don't get where that would go. But okay, fine. When you read it in the Hebrew or illuminated Hebrew, you see, oh, he's making all these lines in the sand. Like, there will be no bitterness in the doing of this. This will be done in friendship. And so for the author, there's this contrast that even though it's a place of great violence, where hundreds of animals are slaughtered every year, God wants it to still be a place of wholeness. Right. A place where there aren't brandished materials that are used in violence in their community. So bringing that over to Jesus, it's almost as if Jesus is saying that relational brokenness is like. That iron is like a weapon that's used in the community, that guilty confusion. Right. Because they don't even know if somebody has something against you, but you think that they might. That sensation of like, I don't know if this conflict is still ongoing. I have to go check. That according to Jesus, seems to me to be a weapon that messes up the altar process, messes up the worship of God. And instead that spot is supposed to be the set apart place where there isn't division, right. There isn't violence. And so Jesus could be expanding our imagination to include this relational destruction rather than just weapon destruction. Does that make any sense?
- [15:35]
Reid Dent
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a. It feels. I'm just thinking of my own experiences being in worship and like the way in which the particular. So you mentioned, you know, maybe a communion is a type of altar that we're talking about. And I do feel that. And that there is something about, like that, that ceremonial kind of rite for me, like the embodied thing that you have to do that doesn't. Like there's something really discordant or dissonant when there is like a. Just something wrong between me and somebody else that does feel like a kind of, I guess a kind of violence or a kind of destruction at the very least. I cannot, with a good conscience, you know, participate. But it's, I think, meant to go bigger than that. Right. It's not just about my own conscience, but it's about the actual space that exists between me and that person. But, yeah, no, I think that's. That's a. I. Yeah, that. That resonates with me a lot.
- [16:31]
Elle
Yeah. Which I think Corinthians talks about exactly what you're describing, which if we put on that lens that you gave us in the introduction, right, there's something internally wrong, there's something externally wrong in the space between you and the other person. And then there's something potentially cosmically wrong that we have the Power to lean into and do something about. I love it because when I think if I was just to sit down in my Christian upbringing and be like, what are like the purity issues that God says would keep us away from like being able to worship him properly, I'm not sure that this would be the first thing, right? Like whether all my relationships are marked by wholeness or not.
- [17:15]
Reid Dent
There's I think for a lot of us, like our, our concept of faith is just way too like individual, way too insulated to, for that to even register, you know, everything is about me and God. It's kind of why I love those passages from Paul because they actually draw like an extremely like unbreakable link between. To be reconciled to God is to actually be reconciled to one another and that it can't, it can't. One can't be without the other.
- [17:48]
Elle
Right? Yeah, very first John, do like.
- [17:51]
Reid Dent
Yeah.
- [17:51]
Elle
Loving your brethren. You're not loving God. Sorry. Yeah, dead on uncomfortable. So we'll move right along the next phrase.
- [18:01]
Reid Dent
Do you have, does someone have something against you? Elle?
- [18:04]
Elle
Oh, who knows? Plead the fifth. Okay. The next phrase is and there. Remember. So what I hate about this is that remember is not time bound, right. There's no statute of limitations here. And I say that I hate this because I'm very guilty of this. I can be pretty conflict adverse, despite what people might think about me, which, I mean, not always, but I can realize over time that I've done something wrong or stupid or potentially harmful. And I can think to myself, well, that was ages ago. Surely it would have come up if it was a real problem. It would just be weird if I reached out about it now. So I kind of, you know, eee, eee, eee, eee. My way past the issue and just grasp my fingers that it's okay. But my pastor growing up used to say, no matter how long you've been walking down the wrong road, it's never too late to start the walk back. And this, remember, is pretty open ended, right? Doesn't say whether it was a year ago or five years ago or ten years ago or whatever, but it demands, demands a response which is a bummer.
- [19:19]
Reid Dent
There's part of me that there's like this, you know, I can hear the like hipster pot shotting kid in the back of my brain is like, oh, so like everything ever that anybody might have had a problem with you, like you. Is that like your responsibility like all the time? Like, you know, but, but I think this is this. There's a real like element of the spirit here, that is like the conscience, you know, speaking. And when we, you know, I think, no, of course not. Of course not everything. But in that moment, like, you know, like if there is. If the spirit prompts and it's like, yeah, but this thing, you know, and then you. Then you have a choice to make, whether you're going to engage that or slink away from it. But yeah, that the work of the spirit is there. And like, what I like about the picture of again, being at the altar or being in these places of worship is that like, I imagine there is intended to be a kind of focus and stillness and attentiveness there. And it's like when we are in that state, it's like, not when we're running around doing our errands that probably these things are going to be like, coming into our mind, but when we carve out the space. That's kind of the phenomenon, right? Yeah. And you're like, oh, gosh, like, I, I haven't thought about this in a long time, but this is actually really real.
- [20:31]
Elle
Yep. I had to apologize to you on my birthday because that happened to me. Big bummer for me. Fine. But it reminds me. Yeah, exactly.
- [20:45]
Brent Billings
Reconciliation is a great birthday gift.
- [20:49]
Elle
True. But it reminds me of Marty's super great teaching link should be in the show notes when he talks about laying down the jawbone and forgiveness because he talks about that black cloud. And you haven't finished the work of forgiveness until you can think of the other person without a black cloud. And that's when they've done something wrong. But to me that applies if I, like, think of somebody else and I think, like, I did such a stupid thing, that's like my own black cloud over my own head rather than the other person's. So quick pivot here, enough about me to the Jewish perspective. What might stand out to the original listeners about this practice? So when are Jewish folks supposed to seek out reconciliation? Repentance? Pop quiz. Everyone's favorite. It is in the days of ah, before Yom Kippur. So I do not want to dunk on this practice. So that's not why I'm describing it. In fact, when I lived in Israel and Palestine, it was great because everyone was in the same boat. When you have to go make confession, it's not to like a priest in a box somewhere. You have to make confession to your friends, your acquaintances, your enemies. You're sending a bunch of texts, but when you do so, you know that you're also going to get a Lot of texts, right? So when you get that text, do you want to say, oh, yeah, totally fine, we're all good. You want to reconcile as fast as possible because you're, like, sitting there with your fingers crossed, waiting to get your text back from your boss, like, oh, boy, I hope this goes okay. So the, like, camaraderie of you're all in it together is really lovely culturally. And also it has a scary component where if you don't reconcile, your name gets wiped out of the book of life, which is a big bummer. So what's interesting, though, is that Jesus, us doesn't subscribe to waiting for that door to be kicked open to be like, okay, time to sit down and evaluate how have I been dumb to people in my life this year? Right? He says, you remember, you go, I just clapped. I don't know if that'll make it on. Sorry. But if the spirit brings something up, like we were just saying, when you're in this holy place, surrounded, doing the things of God, and God brings something to mind, you do not wait potentially a whole year until next September, next Elul, or wherever you need to go in that moment, disrupting the temple service completely. And I could not find any halakhic equivalent, any resource that said that you would ever interrupt the temple service in this way. So Jesus is. This first radical thing he's doing here is being like, the thing that you think that God really wants you to do. Not as important as reconciling.
- [23:49]
Reid Dent
So I have a question. Is there. I'm imagining, you know, when you're in line, like at the grocery store and somebody's checking out ahead of you, and they're like, oh, crap, I forgot to get this thing. And like, the entire process for everybody stalls out because they have to go and take care of whatever they forgot. Or maybe they left their, you know, card in the. Is it like a. I mean, is this. Is this disruption going to then also affect, like, everybody else who is there trying to bring their gift to the altar?
- [24:18]
Elle
Yeah. The priest is standing there. You've got the singing crew of the Levites. It's just like record scratch.
- [24:26]
Reid Dent
People are checking their watch.
- [24:28]
Elle
Yeah. You have to give your animal, which is still alive, by the way, in the sequencing, to the priest while you go run off, or you have to, like, run out of the building carrying your goat.
- [24:39]
Reid Dent
Sorry, could you hang on to this one second? And it's just standing there, like kind of bleating while precisely super uncomfortable. Right.
- [24:49]
Elle
Which also big, like, reminder. And if you are conflict Adverse and don't want to inconvenience people. It's a big motivation to take care of your business before you get there. Right, Right. So if Jesus is saying, you do it even then, how much more? When you're like, okay, time to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to go do my thing, and then you're like, oh, boy, I really have to go talk to so and so first, because you sure don't want to have to walk all the way back to your town that you came from.
- [25:22]
Brent Billings
Well, in the grocery store example, I feel like I would just check out and take everything out to my car and come in a different entrance and find it and go to a different check stand and pretend that it never happened. But that's not an option here.
- [25:36]
Reid Dent
Doesn't seem to be.
- [25:39]
Brent Billings
You have to stop. You cannot continue if you remember something very socially awkward.
- [25:45]
Elle
So what does that say about God's character? I don't know that I have a perfect answer to that, but I do love mulling on it that what are the things that God has worked up over? What is he willing to set aside the importance of in order that relationship might be restored? Almost like what you were saying, Reid, that this is a cosmic way of putting the world back together that's more important to him even than us, like working through our atonement. Ah, right. Because that's what some of the temple sacrifices are. They might have been other ones. Right. But potentially the biggest one that we'd be uncomfortable with is stopping your atonement sacrifice. Your sin offering would be a big deal. Okay, what are you remembering? You're remembering that your brother has something against you. Oh, man.
- [26:43]
Brent Billings
How wide of a definition do we have to give to brother here?
- [26:46]
Elle
Unfortunately, it's very lawyerly. As discussed in previous. Previous episodes from the city. Refers to anybody in your community. Sorry, friend. Boom, boom, boom. The given here, if you're remembering that your brother has something against you is that if you have something against somebody else, you've already gone to them. Right. We had that in the previous. The previous verse. That's when you have the agency of like, hey, I've got a problem with you. I've got some anger. We need to work this out with our local judicial community. But here we see when someone has something against us. This is really interesting to me in our cultural milieu, a lot of tension here, because it's true that we can't control other people and get them to do the right thing and get the person to come to us, because if they were following Jesus's previous commandment, then they would have done that already, right? But we don't get to then just like wish or complain that the other person isn't following the commandment like they're supposed to. We don't get to sit on our heels and say like, well, that's their problem and their business. If they're mad at me, which again is everywhere around at least me and my milieu and the millennial folks, you know, especially in self help spaces, there's lots of focus on not being codependent, which is still also true. You know, Jesus doesn't. If they're mad at you, you need to also like get mad and panic and freak out. But he does give us the agency about what to do even if the other person isn't doing the right thing. Right? We don't get to just like shrug emoji into the sunset and become narcissists who only think about ourselves and walk around being like, deal with it.
- [28:38]
Reid Dent
It's like in, you know, these different kinds of engineering or mechanical processes, when it's like a critical process, there are redundancies and fail for like the really important stuff. And so it feels like that to me here. Like the, the, the reconciliation or the peace between folks is so important that we're going to cover it like from both ends and make sure if one slacks out on their particular responsibility, the other one is going to actually cover it for them so that, so that peace can hopefully happen. And that's exactly how crucial it is. Like, no room for error or failure here. It's actually on everybody.
- [29:18]
Elle
Right? Communal perspective there. I love it. Makes me think about how even if the other person isn't holding true to what maybe they're supposed to, we are still bound to our values and to our calling. As Reid once said in the best marriage sermon I've ever heard, I am bound and you are free. So not judging the other person and being like, why haven't you done blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then like gossiping to other people about it and hope that they hear that and realize that they're supposed to do something, but taking care of what we're supposed to do, which is so.
- [29:50]
Reid Dent
Tough because when we are hurt, I mean, how, how often do we just want to be like, well, it's in their court now, like, nothing I can do about it, you know, And Jesus is like, pump the brakes. There is something you can do.
- [30:04]
Brent Billings
I'm just imagining if this is a whole community thing, you've got a whole Line of people at the altar, lines going slow. Somebody in the middle looks back, sees somebody come into line, and like, wait a second. And they look back ahead, they're like, yeah, what's he doing here? He's got a problem with this other guy. If the community is as tight knit as I think a lot of them would be.
- [30:27]
Elle
Yeah.
- [30:28]
Brent Billings
It's like, what are you doing here? You need to deal with that before you offer your own sacrifice. And then what are you doing here if you know he's got the thing against you?
- [30:37]
Elle
Right.
- [30:37]
Brent Billings
So I don't know, would you consider that gossip or would you just consider that, like community accountability?
- [30:44]
Elle
Oh, no, I totally consider that community accountability. I love that. Even though it's super countercultural. I'm thinking more like you're not giving your sacrifice. But I tell Brent, like, I think Reed has a problem with me and he hasn't talked to me about it in the hope that you'll like, text, read and be like, Elle thinks that you have a Brahma with her. That that's the non productive thing to do, in my opinion.
- [31:09]
Reid Dent
Right.
- [31:10]
Elle
Okay. So Jesus says, leave your gift at the altar, which presumes that you'll come back. Right. You don't get to take your goat with you because then you might just like go home.
- [31:19]
Reid Dent
That's a good point. That's a good point.
- [31:23]
Elle
It's expected that you'll return for your goat. So brb, sorry, but first you must go be reconciled to your brother. So our English word reconciled is from Latin. It just means bring together again. Right. Re and then consile. But in Greek it's the word dialasso. Dia means through and lasso means change. So what does that mean in reconciliation? Some kind of transformation? Some kind of alchemy is ongoing. You might pop the door open a little bit more if we look at other references. So in Acts 6 it says that Jesus of Nazareth will dioloso the customs which Moshe delivered to us. So they're going through some kind of change. First Corinthians 15 says, we will not sleep, but we will all be de alassa. Right. Talking about after death. So we will all be changed is usually how that is translated. So if we are supposed to be going through dia lasso, going through some kind of change, that means that reconciliation cannot be a hollow little apology. That's like, hey, sorry, probably shouldn't have said that in that meeting. And nothing really changes. Right? That's not reconciliation. It's just a bad apology. So if that's how we know whether We've been successful or not. Like, okay, if I've reconciled successfully, something has changed. How do you do reconciliation according to Talmudic tradition? Well, I have five steps, and they're all great.
- [33:05]
Reid Dent
Thank you. Finally, a step by step in how to fix my relationships.
- [33:09]
Elle
Here is the wiki how it's gonna be tumultuous but entertaining. Step number one, you go to your neighbor and you say, I have transgressed against you. And then you say, how so I shouldn't have interrupted you in that meeting. Read step number two. If the neighbor says, that's not true. You didn't interrupt me. Everything's fine. Instead of leaving the reconciler to awkwardly fade into the bushes, the neighbor is supposed to say, we are reconciled. And then the neighbor blesses them, which is lovely about the definition of blessing. Yeah, so it doesn't leave room for awkward. Like, he said that everything was fine, but I feel like it's not. You know, it's like the blessing is like, well, if they secretly hated you, it probably would have been tricky to say, we are reconciled, and then bless the person. That's step two. Number three, though. If you're not accepted by your neighbor, you have to form a line of people, which is supposed to be at least 10 people long. And you're supposed to say, I sinned in this way. I interrupted this person meeting, and yet it has not been recompensed to me. So a little public shame goes a long way. But it's so good because you're both, like, shaming yourself because you're having to confess to the whole community, but you're also shaming the other person for not going through the reconciliation process with you. And in fact, your neighbor might make you do that. We have records of people saying, you sinned against me in public, yet you want to reconcile in private. Go and fetch those persons in whose presence you have offended me. Then I'll reconcile with you. Which is also very baller and very community oriented and not at all comfortable in our individualist world, where I feel.
- [35:11]
Reid Dent
Like the temperature is going up in here. I'm getting uncomfortable.
- [35:15]
Elle
Right. We. We would. If I was executing this in my regular life, it would be like, hey, do you mind stepping over here with me for a sec? I wanted to apologize for something, and I know that if I said that, the person would be like, oh, my gosh. Oh, totally. Yeah. And then we'd, like, go speak in hushed voices.
- [35:32]
Reid Dent
I'd be like, no. L. That meeting was really important to me, and being interrupted was a big deal. So let's go get our families and all of our friends.
- [35:41]
Elle
Call Marty. Call Josh.
- [35:43]
Reid Dent
Well, not Marty.
- [35:44]
Elle
They were on the text thread, too. Yeah. They need to know this. But what does that gift both parties, Right. There's less opportunity in my mind to fester in darkness. Right. If you're doing it by yourself and you're wondering on your own, boy, this person said that we reconciled, but are we really? Or did I do a good enough. Enough job, like, confessing what I actually did? If you bring a whole bunch of people into that room, you have the opportunity for somebody to be like, boo. You didn't just interrupt him. You, like, were disdainful. You know, you made. You didn't honor him and what he was saying. Right. Not just you interrupted him. And then you're like, okay, okay, okay.
- [36:26]
Reid Dent
Well, I was going to say think about the difference, though. If it's. If it's the one who has been offended, if they're the ones gathering the 10 people versus if I'm gather if I'm the offender, right. And I'm like, I'm gonna get 10 people to come with me. Like, if it's the other person, then it becomes like, potentially this kind of, like, shame crowd, you know, that's like, oh, yeah. But instead, if it's me, then, and I'm going to confess, I'm not looking for them necessarily to, like, be like, no, you didn't do anything wrong. Like, that's the opposite. Right. But to kind of help keep things, like, healthily in perspective and, like, going in a good direction.
- [37:03]
Elle
A nurturing presence is what you're looking for. If you. If you're gonna bring your 10 people, you're gonna pick the people who were there, but who are still, like, rooting for you and cheering for you. Yeah. And I think that's a big difference between the way, like, church discipline happens sometimes in churches where it's super unhealthy and traumatizing for people. It's like all of the elders have gathered to tell you of your sin. Right. Different. Which I'm not even saying is always, like, the wrong. There's a multitude of different issues that churches have to work through. But what would it look like if the person who is confessing brought their. A team with them and then only also if it's demanded by the person and if the person is not. Not accepting their attempt at reconciliation. Okay, so step number four. If you have tried this three times and the person will not reconcile with you, or if they do, either way, but your responsibility goes for three times. Talmud says off of job 33, that you have still redeemed your soul from going into the tomb, and your life shall yet see the light. And I think that's moving because guilt does kind of feel like death when you have that sinking feeling of, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I was such an idiot, or, oh, I really hurt that person, and I didn't mean to at all. That sense of, like, crushing weight, of failure that goes beyond just, like, failing an achievement, but hurting somebody that you care about is really terrible. Ephesians talks about, like, things in the darkness don't stay in the darkness. You bring them out into the light. And so I think it's helpful that Talmud says if you've made that attempt to reconcile and you do it three times and people have been brought into the situation, the person is still like, nope, then that's between them and God. And you don't have to keep publicly shaming yourself. You just already experienced death to yourself in your own ego, and now you can trust that you have done what God requires of you.
- [39:23]
Reid Dent
I mean, if you're trying to ask 10 people three different times, you know, it's like, hey, I'm really sorry, but, like, can we try? Can you help me with this? You know what I mean? That is. That feels like a death of the ego for sure.
- [39:34]
Elle
Right. The first time you're by yourself, but the second time you're bringing people, and then you have to be like, well, I still didn't do it, so you have to go get them again.
- [39:42]
Reid Dent
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:43]
Elle
But totally the opposite of Internet culture. Right. Like, if you notice somebody sent an. Also, sometimes church culture, if you notice somebody sin, go tear them down in public. Right. That's the. This is the way. Private. Ish. If it's Christian church culture, but definitely public. If it's Internet, not the way of Jesus. Step five, option five. What if the person you do need to reconcile with is dead? Real talk. That's sometimes the case.
- [40:14]
Reid Dent
That's a. Actually, it's a great question.
- [40:15]
Elle
Yeah. So I have the Talmudic answer and the early church answer. It might not be the answer that every listener is like, yes, that makes. That checks the box for me. But we can talk about it. What do you do if the person you need to reconcile with is dead? You go to their grave, you grab 10 buddies just right off the. From the starting mark this time, and you go through the same process at their grave. In both Judaism and the early church practices, there was this expectation and sense that the dead are still around and present, even though they're also rejoicing with Christ on the other side of the veil. Right. And they believe that interaction with them was not like beyond the pale in the same way that we have a big separation. Right. Like they're in heaven with Jesus, not here. Right. But they take texts like Hebrews 12 talking about. We have this great cloud of witnesses. They had a different view of their ancestors, which we see a lot of in the Hebrew Bible. So one of the things that they would do and one of the reasons that you should reconcile with a dead person is because both nine days after their death and every year on the anniversary of their death, the early church would hold these feasts and the catacombs called refrigeria, like refrigerator. And they would carve these depressions and tube shaped holes in the sarcophagi of their friends so that they would have a spot to like serve them food, food and wine at their yearly memorial dinner. They would have a triclinium, they would have a table, they would have a chair for like the closest person to the person who had died. And then they would leave another chair empty for the person who had died and put food and stuff on their sarcophagus. I have a link in the show notes to that or to a summary that has great footnotes and links in it to read more about that. But very well documented. Some of the church fathers and mothers were concerned about it and whether it was too pagan or not. But we do know that it was a regular part of the early churches. You can still go and work through things with people who have died because they yet live, even if they're just with Christ. So that's how you do reconciliation from a Talmudic perspective.
- [42:42]
Reid Dent
I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big fan.
- [42:45]
Elle
Yeah. Can I carve something into your coffin?
- [42:47]
Reid Dent
Well, but just like, what's the alternative? Like, I'm, I'm just going to like, like think about it, you know, like.
- [42:52]
Elle
Right.
- [42:53]
Reid Dent
I'm not saying that there, whether there is or is not some kind of voodoo magic going on isn't really the point for me. But it's like this embodied kind of way of dealing with what is probably like nobody wants to have a guilty conscience and you especially don't want to have that with someone who is dead and like to have that feeling of like, well, this is eternally irreconcilable now or something like that. Or I'm just going to have to suffer with this until I myself am Dead. And then we'll just automatically, like, heaven high five when we see each other. But to be able to have some embodied way of really dealing with that and let it sink down into your soul, like, I. I mean, that sounds pretty great to me.
- [43:35]
Elle
Yeah. In the safety of community, too.
- [43:37]
Reid Dent
Absolutely.
- [43:38]
Elle
So you don't come back and be like, they appeared to me as an apparition and told me that I've never done anything wrong in my life. You've got your folks with you.
- [43:46]
Reid Dent
Yeah. And the images of food and drink, too. I mean, I just. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful thing.
- [43:51]
Elle
So do we have your permission or Leanne's permission to carve plates into your coffin?
- [43:57]
Reid Dent
Yes, please. And after I am dead, take her there so that she can reconcile with me for all the wrong she did to me. Wow. Well, if somebody has something against you. Right? If somebody. If the dead person has something. I'm just going with the Jesus text here. That I didn't. I'm just sticking with the Bible, that's all.
- [44:15]
Elle
Yeah. I think she might need to bring you another anniversary cake is what I'm hearing.
- [44:20]
Reid Dent
Okay. What a story that was. Yeah, I'm. I'm the worst. Leanne is great. Let me go on the record of saying that. That's what I want to say.
- [44:32]
Elle
Great. I'm glad you've repented. Now I can move on.
- [44:35]
Reid Dent
I'm gonna need to get 10 friends and go talk to her.
- [44:38]
Elle
I'll think about being one of them, but I'm not sure I wouldn't be on the team. Okay. The next phrase is, settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way. Okay. So immediately. First thing is, it doesn't say settle the case. That is a interpretive attempt, which I respect. I've certainly been there. Of being like, whew. How do I make this make any sense? Some translations say, make friends quickly, which is kind of great. The kjv and the KJV's offspring go with agree with your accuser quickly, which I really like because it's really countercultural, somebody being like, no, I don't want to forgive you because you're the worst. And you're like, yeah, that's true. I've agreed with you. Are we reconciled? So. But what does Jesus actually say? If he doesn't say settle the gaze quickly, he says, you know. So noos is our word for mind, which is in that word. It's from Kinosco, which means to know or to learn to know. And then the E at the beginning or the U at the beginning is for good. Like eulogy. Right. U, locus. Good words. So Jesus says, quickly learn to know the you, the good of your accuser. Which is so juicy to me. So it's not just like, go through the motions. Be like, ah, okay, this person is so sensitive. Reid is so sensitive. I just interrupted meetings, but that's my right or whatever. I was right. I should have interrupted him.
- [46:13]
Reid Dent
But because Reid is sensitive, it was an important meeting. It was a really important meeting.
- [46:20]
Elle
It's not a big deal to me or whatever, But Reid still seems to be mad about it, so fine, I'll go talk to him. No, it says that I have to learn to know the person who is angry with me and not just learn to know them, although that already takes a lot of work, but learn to know the good of them. So maybe this person is sensitive, but I feel like there's a posture change if we're following the commandment of Jesus. Like disdain or conceit can't come into play as much when we know the reason that the person is behaving the way that they are. Right. It's easy to have disdain, conceit when you're like, I don't know, that person's just like that, whatever. But if we know why, then it immediately changes our posture more into compassion. And sometimes it takes curiosity to get there. Right. I guess we don't automatically know why the person's doing that. So we have to ask questions. We have to desire to know. But then even just going beyond knowing them, we have to know the good in them. Right. So you end up suddenly being in the place of, wow, I'm thankful for this person's extra sensitivity to this issue because it helps me and the team stay on track in our integrity. And maybe if it wasn't for this person's quote, unquote sensitivity being the North Star for our ethics, then we wouldn't speak of one another with honor the ways that we want to talk about.
- [47:52]
Reid Dent
Each other, or nothing would ever get done in our meetings.
- [47:55]
Elle
You're right. Going the other way to the interrupter. And once we get to that place, though, of the UNO eo, it turns into a place of gratitude, which is a true Dio lasso. Right. Going from person is mad at me and I feel guilty about it, and maybe I feel some complicity, but maybe I don't to all of a sudden compassion, which turns into gratitude. That's a real transformation, a real crossing over, a change, a through change.
- [48:25]
Reid Dent
Yeah, that's great. I mean, understanding of the other person. I like that because like the other, the other translation. So like the ESV that I have in front of me says come to terms and it all just sounds like a business deal. You know, it sounds like you're negotiating.
- [48:40]
Elle
Something like give them what they want, but like you can compromise and yeah, they want this much compensation and you think that's lame.
- [48:47]
Reid Dent
Yeah, but I think, I think you're so right that like the way that that alchemy happens to gratitude or to compassion is through looking for the good in them or like seeing the understanding. Because I think what, sometimes what we find when we look for that understanding is, oh, they're actually not that different from me. If I saw it that same way, I might, might be upset too, you know?
- [49:10]
Elle
Right, Totally.
- [49:11]
Reid Dent
Yeah.
- [49:11]
Elle
Penultimate phrase here, we're almost done. Lest your accuser hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer and you be thrown into prison. So this pipeline is like an exact parallelism of the anger passage. Right before we had the little Sanhedrin and the big Sanhedrin and then Gehenna and now we have the judge officer prison pipeline. So it's almost like it's the third time I've said that. Ripping off Marty. I need to pick a different phrase. It's as if, oh, that's no better. Jesus is pointing out that our anger can eventually pull us out of community. Right. We did that numbers 12. We talked about Miriam getting leprosy and why we did that full breakdown last episode. So go listen to it if you haven't. But also others anger at you if we're not willing to go to the work of caring about their feelings. Right. And artifacts don't care about your feelings culture, whether they're unfounded or not. If we're not willing to go and do the self sacrificial work of curiosity which leads to delighting in others, compassion, gratitude, what we've been talking about, then that can also pull us out of community, just as we're in danger in the anger passage as well. And then finally Jesus says amen. That's another amen, not a truly, truly different word. Amen. I say to you, you shall not come out from there until you have paid the last penny. So I would posit that there's this one last Talmudic story I want to share that illuminates this final phrase, why Jesus throws it in. Right. Cause I wouldn't notice if this wasn't here. Right. It doesn't say anything about coming out of Gehenna in the last verse. But he adds this thing. And here's a Talmudic story. The context is the Talmud says, in the Messianic era, Jerusalem will be four square miles of precious stones and pearls. It's their quote. So in this story, there is an issue of unpaid debt between a creditor and a debtor. But they live in the Messianic era, and so they say, let's go talk it out with the King, the Messiah in Jerusalem. When they're on the way, they reach the city limits of Jerusalem and they find all the precious stones and pearls and quote. Then the debtor takes two of the pearls and says to the creditor, do I owe you more than these? And the latter answers him, not so much. It is forgiven. It's remitted for you. So in Jesus's rendition, which he also includes that on the way, by the way, settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way. Which also reminds me of this story. Like, why? Why is that phrase there? Settle it quickly while you're on the way. Because if you get into this death spiral with another person where you're refusing to reconcile, there, it's possible that you won't have a chance to pull on the abundance of the kingdom of God and the abundance of grace and forgiveness and mercy at a later stage, right? If you don't do the work to go to the person, to have curiosity to find the good in their perspective and who they are, then you might not get a chance to journey down in the Talmudic imagination the localized kingdom of God where there is everything that you need to work your way out of an issue. If you're here in your town, where there's already a judge and a bailiff and a prison, and you're not willing to do that work of d'alasso, of going through your own transformation on an internal level and an external level, then you might not have that chance to pull on the abundance of grace upon grace upon grace later. And rather you get stuck in a prison of your own making and you have to work out of that pit penny by penny by penny of human effort, day by day, one at a time. And I think Jesus is saying that when we avail ourselves of the work of reconciliation, then therefore the riches of abundance and grace and forgiveness and mercy, et cetera, are directly at hand.
- [53:21]
Reid Dent
I think this is the same phrase as in the parable of the unforgiving servant. You won't get out until you have.
- [53:29]
Elle
Paid the last penny.
- [53:31]
Reid Dent
I think so, and it seems to be that same idea that you're saying, like, do you reach this point where, you know, you are so far into that spiral, you know that you.
- [53:44]
Elle
Right.
- [53:45]
Reid Dent
You can't come back out of it. But at the. It's like a self inflicted kind of thing. You know, you have an out. There is a way for you. And it looks like reconciliation, it looks like forgiveness, it looks like compassion, and you're not taking it. And it's like this, I'm looking for it now. But anyway, maybe it's not so important to dwell on, but this seems to be a theme in Jesus.
- [54:07]
Elle
Yes. And I think that one's super related. That's Matthew 18. 18.
- [54:13]
Reid Dent
Okay.
- [54:13]
Elle
I don't know if Matthew 18 anyway has to pay the last penny, but certainly similar. Like are we, we who have been reconciled to you said, quoting Ephesians, how dare we as members of God's household, not extend that same reconciliation unto others when Jesus, his work of reconciliation included death on a cross. Right. And ours probably doesn't include that. So get it together.
- [54:42]
Reid Dent
Get it together. Yeah, it is there. The parable of the unforgiving servant, which comes actually right after. If your brother sins against you. It's, it's that, it's the other. It's the reverse of the idea that, that you mentioned before. Like, yeah, you go if, if they did something to you. And then followed by the parable of the unforgiving servant, which ends with he should not get out until he has paid all the debt. Which is the idea of like down to the last penny, like every.
- [55:07]
Elle
Right.
- [55:08]
Reid Dent
Yeah. So this idea that Jesus, like, he takes these, these images of forgiveness or reconciliation with a kind of economic debt. Yeah, it's great. It's great. Good job, Jesus. Brilliant, brilliant images.
- [55:25]
Elle
Yeah, that's plenty.
- [55:26]
Reid Dent
I think there's lots there for all of us to definitely do some wrestling with.
- [55:31]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I got some work to do.
- [55:33]
Elle
Yeah. It's been a while, Brent. Any cold takes to finish out our app here?
- [55:39]
Brent Billings
No, I'm just thinking about this whole process and who I might deem to apply it to.
- [55:45]
Elle
No, well, if you need a 10.
- [55:50]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes.
- [55:52]
Elle
I'll bring my kids.
- [55:54]
Brent Billings
What do you do if there aren't 10 that like no relationship?
- [55:58]
Elle
10 friends?
- [55:58]
Brent Billings
Yeah, well, like I have 10 friends, but like 10 people who would be familiar with the situation because I assume that's kind of like.
- [56:06]
Elle
Right. More localized friendships than we have today.
- [56:09]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [56:10]
Elle
Yep. Just suffer.
- [56:12]
Reid Dent
Just start gossiping more about it first. You're laying the groundwork by gossiping and saying bad things.
- [56:17]
Brent Billings
There you go.
- [56:17]
Reid Dent
And then you're like, hey, you might have heard about this situation. Do you think you could.
- [56:22]
Elle
Perfect. Great takeaways. I love it.
- [56:25]
Brent Billings
All right, well, I'll close it down for now. We've got a couple of items in the show notes the the article in the Biblical Archaeology Society library that Elle mentioned earlier as, as well as Baymont, episode 36. If you want to review the drop in the jawbone lesson is in that episode. So that will be on the website@bayonemoddcept.com or in your podcast app. It's been a challenging episode, as Jesus tends to do. He cuts to the heart. So we'll leave it there for now and we'll talk to you again soon.