Podcast Summary: The BEMA Podcast - Episode 441: Talmudic Matthew — Thymos
Release Date: March 13, 2025
Host/Author: BEMA Discipleship
Guests: Elle, Grover Fricks, Josh Bossay, and co-host Brent Billings
Overview
In Episode 441 of The BEMA Podcast, titled "Talmudic Matthew — Thymos," host Brent Billings joins Elle, Grover Fricks, and Josh Bossay to delve into Jesus's teachings on desire, specifically examining the passage from Matthew 5:27-30. The discussion navigates the interplay between the biblical text, its historical context, and Talmudic interpretations, aiming to uncover whether Jesus was innovating, resetting, or aligning with existing Jewish teachings of his time.
1. Introduction to the Episode's Theme
Brent introduces the episode's focus: exploring Jesus's teachings on desire and how they align with or diverge from traditional Jewish interpretations. The team sets out their methodology, emphasizing a structured approach that begins with scriptural reading, followed by peshat (literal meaning) analysis, and culminating in Talmudic exploration.
Notable Quote:
- Brent Billings: “Today Jesus has been talking to us about what it looks like to walk out Torah in the world. Right? Salt and light. What does that mean? What does it look like?”
2. Scriptural Examination: Matthew 5:27-30
Brent reads the passage from Matthew 5:27-30, highlighting Jesus's intensification of the commandment against adultery by addressing internal desires:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart...”
Notable Quote:
- Brent Billings (02:11): “It's the foundational text for the men's accountability groups in my church growing up.”
3. Peshat Analysis: Understanding the Literal Meaning
Elle leads the discussion on peshat, emphasizing the importance of understanding the plain meaning of the text before diving deeper. The conversation reflects on how this passage has traditionally been taught within church settings, often focusing on internal self-regulation rather than literal body mutilation.
Notable Quotes:
- Elle (05:04): “If it's been a long time and you don't know what I'm saying, I'm sorry. There you go. There's a reminder.”
- Josh Bossay (04:15): “That is kind of a DIY project. And here we have the bonesaw of shame.”
4. Linguistic Insights: Exploring the Greek and Hebrew Terms
The team examines the original Greek word for "lust"—epithumeo—exploring its etymology and comparing it to its usage in the Septuagint. Elle clarifies that epithumeo traditionally means "to pant after" or "to desire," contrasting with modern negative connotations of "lust."
Notable Quotes:
- Elle (06:46): “Epithumeo literally means to pant after, to desire something, to covet.”
- Josh Bossay (07:22): “Means to pant after something.”
5. Reconciling Desire with Biblical Teachings
The discussion transitions to understanding the role of desire within God's creation, referencing the Song of Songs to illustrate that desire and enjoyment are not inherently sinful. The conversation distinguishes between healthy desire and covetousness, emphasizing consent and respect in relationships.
Notable Quotes:
- Josh Bossay (09:49): “Its first use is when God is creating the trees and he creates them to be desirable.”
- Elle (10:27): “God designed desire. He put it in the garden. It's something to be enjoyed.”
6. Jesus's Interpretation vs. Talmudic Teachings
Elle and Josh explore how Jesus's teachings both align with and diverge from Talmudic law. While the Talmud includes stringent measures against lust, Jesus focuses on the internal moral state, advocating for self-regulation without advocating for literal self-mutilation.
Notable Quotes:
- Elle (18:22): “Jesus doesn't say that he raises the bar in a different way... he's pulling back rather than pulling forward.”
- Josh Bossay (36:20): “Jesus is potentially dialing it down a bit here, saying control what you have control over, change.”
7. Talmudic Mitzvot on Lust: A Critical Examination
The team delves into the Talmudic interpretations surrounding lust and adultery, presenting a series of hypothetical commandments that reflect extreme measures to curb desire. These include prohibitions against walking behind a woman, counting money from a woman's hand, and other restrictive interactions.
Notable Quotes:
- Elle (29:26): “Here are 10 Talmudic mitzvot about the lust of the eyes that is looking at women.”
- Josh Bossay (31:29): “Number four... it's never considered fully her fault. I am not sure how that all works.”
8. Contrasting Approaches: Jesus vs. Talmud
The conversation highlights how Jesus’s teachings simplify the approach to sin and desire, focusing on personal integrity and moral accountability rather than rigid external regulations. They compare this to the Talmud's detailed and, at times, punitive measures.
Notable Quotes:
- Brent Billings (27:22): “Jesus taught it, so that's what we're dealing with, right?”
- Elle (38:05): “Jesus is potentially dialing it down a bit... don't kill yourself over this issue.”
9. Integrating Integrity and Character in Faith
Josh brings in a Ramez (hint) from Zechariah 11, connecting it to the theme of integrity. The discussion underscores the importance of personal character and responsibility over mere doctrinal adherence, advocating for a faith that prioritizes moral integrity.
Notable Quotes:
- Josh Bossay (40:44): “'Woe to the worthless shepherd who abandons the flock... his right eye will be blind.'”
- Elle (44:49): “How much do we care about integrity? How much do we care about actually taking care of people?”
10. Practical Applications: Managing Desire Without Self-Flagellation
The team concludes by translating these theological insights into practical advice. They encourage listeners to regulate their desires through conscious choice and community support rather than through self-punishment. The emphasis is on actionable steps like deleting unhelpful apps or seeking professional help when necessary.
Notable Quotes:
- Elle (21:24): “Have your friend change your password... delete the apps.”
- Josh Bossay (35:08): “If you literally can't live without something, then there's probably like the conversation around where the sin is coming from.”
Conclusion
Episode 441 of The BEMA Podcast offers a profound exploration of Jesus's teachings on desire, juxtaposed with Talmudic interpretations. By dissecting the language, historical context, and underlying moral principles, the hosts provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of biblical commands regarding lust and desire. The episode encourages a balanced approach to spiritual discipline, advocating for personal integrity and practical self-regulation over rigid self-punishment.
Notable Closing Quote:
- Brent Billings (45:08): “Everything that we do is made possible by all of you listeners who contribute to our mission... thanks for joining us on the BEMA podcast this week.”
Additional Resources
Listeners interested in further exploring the topics discussed can visit baymontstepship.com for more resources and to support the ministry's ongoing work.