448: Talmudic Matthew — Secret

Summary

The BEMA Podcast: Episode 448 – "Talmudic Matthew — Secret"

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Host/Author: BEMA Discipleship (Marty Solomon and Brent Billings)
Guest: Al Grover Fricks

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Introduction

In Episode 448 of The BEMA Podcast, hosted by Marty Solomon and Brent Billings, the discussion centers around a pivotal passage from the Sermon on the Mount, specifically focusing on Jesus’ teachings about prayer. Joined by guest Al Grover Fricks, the hosts delve into the historical and Rabbinic contexts of the Bible, examining how Jesus’ directives on prayer contrast with contemporary and Greco-Roman practices.

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Exploring the Sermon on the Mount

[00:00 – 02:07] Setting the Scene

Marty and Brent open the episode in a metaphorical "prayer closet," a space symbolizing private prayer away from public display. They reference a recent deep dive into the "problem of reward and wages" and set the stage for a more relaxed yet insightful discussion on prayer.

Key Passage Discussed:

"But whenever you pray, enter into your inner room and shut your door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
— Matthew 6:6 (paraphrased)

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Personal Reflections and Initial Reactions

[02:07 – 03:01] Marty’s Personal Connection

Marty shares a personal anecdote about how this passage influenced his departure from the Catholic Church, highlighting the discomfort with repetitive prayers like the rosary. He remarks:

"This was one of the key passages that made me leave the Catholic Church, the repetition and the many words."

Brent humorously acknowledges the European pagan influences, hinting at the historical context they will explore.

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Talmudic Interpretations of Prayer

[04:06 – 14:06] Foundations of Jewish Prayer Practices

Brent outlines the structure of Jewish prayers during Jesus’ time, emphasizing the Talmudic rules that governed prayer length and frequency. He shares insights into how meticulous the Rabbinic tradition was about prayer duration, including humorous and practical anecdotes:

"They said, never let your prayer be interrupted, even if you are getting bit on the ankle by a poisonous snake. If you do, the snake will die and not you."
(06:32)

This sparks a lighthearted comparison to modern parental experiences with interrupted prayers:

"For me, it makes me think of my prayers at home with the kids, which are constantly interrupted."

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Greco-Roman Prayer Practices

[17:01 – 28:09] Contrasting Jewish and Greco-Roman Prayers

Brent transitions to comparing Talmudic prayers with Greco-Roman practices, categorizing them into three types:

1. Civic Ceremonial Prayer:

   • Structure: Invocation of deity, reason for prayer, and request.
   • Example: "Jupiter Optimus Maximus... we beseech you to protect our city and grant us prosperity."
   • Insight: These prayers were short, formal, and lacked personal emotional depth, contrasting sharply with the Rabbinic emphasis on lengthy supplications.

2. Household Prayer:

   • Structure: Short petitions for household well-being.
   • Example: "Father Mars, be gracious, keep away disease, barrenness and disaster."
   • Insight: These were concise and pragmatic, designed for daily domestic life without the extensive theological discourse found in Rabbinic or magical prayers.

3. Magical Prayers:

   • Structure: Elaborate invocations with divine names, repetitions, and complex formulas.
   • Example Extract:

     "I call upon you, headless one, who created earth and heaven... Deliver him from the demon that holds onto him."

   • Insight: These prayers were highly ritualistic, intended to manipulate supernatural forces, often blending Greco-Roman and Egyptian elements. The hosts note their length and complexity as a key differentiator from Jesus’ teachings.

Notable Quote:

"This is one example from that milieu of what it sounded like, which makes Jesus's version cray in comparison. Right. He says, get out. All done." — (27:15) Brent Billings

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Jesus’ Teachings on Prayer: Motivations and Practices

[29:03 – 35:59] The Heart Behind Prayer

Marty and Brent dissect Jesus’ admonition against long prayers, questioning the underlying motivations for lengthy supplications. They explore whether such prayers are driven by a desire for attention, personal ego, or a genuine relationship with God.

Key Questions Raised:

1. Motivation:

   "Do we rely on liturgical books because we don't think our own thoughts are organized enough?"
   — Brent Billings (32:23)

2. Trust in God:

   "Do we believe that God actually sees us and is actively part of our lives, not just a distant egoic Zeus?"
   — Brent Billings (33:31)

3. Participation vs. Passivity:
   Marty introduces the idea that prayer should not be an excuse to disengage from active participation in God’s work:

   "We are supposed to be partners in carrying out whatever it is we are praying for."
   — Marty Solomon (37:17)

Notable Quote:

"We are participants. We are partners in what God is doing in the world." — Marty Solomon (38:23)

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Practical Applications and Modern Implications

[35:59 – 46:34] Aligning Prayer Practices with Jesus’ Teachings

The hosts discuss how contemporary prayer practices can be reexamined in light of Jesus’ instructions. They emphasize the importance of sincerity over length and encourage believers to evaluate whether their prayers stem from a heart of trust and partnership with God rather than a need to impress or manipulate.

Key Takeaways:

• Sincere Connection:
  Short prayers can be more meaningful when they come from a genuine place of trust and reliance on God.

• Active Faith:
  Engaging in both prayer and actionable steps reflects a balanced and authentic faith practice.

• Community and Partnership:
  Believers are encouraged to see themselves as active participants in God’s plans, working alongside Him rather than relying solely on lengthy rituals.

Notable Quotes:

"If we do come from a tradition which practices lengthier prayers, what's our heart motivation for checking the box on those lengthy prayers?"
— Brent Billings (32:40)

"We are supposed to be partners in carrying out whatever it is we are praying for."
— Marty Solomon (37:17)

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Humorous Interlude: High School Book Discussion

[40:19 – 46:34] Lighthearted Exchange on Youth Literature

The episode takes a humorous detour as Brent and Marty discuss old high school books like Every Young Man's Battle and Every Young Woman's Battle. They poke fun at the exaggerated titles and content, adding levity to the conversation while subtly reinforcing the importance of understanding and addressing modern spiritual and ethical challenges.

Notable Moments:

• Brent on Book Covers:

  "The COVID art is of a poor woman walking by. She's blurred out... We wouldn't want to have to see her face." — Brent Billings (42:13)

• Marty’s Commentary:

  "It helps you understand your hunger for attention from guys." — Marty Solomon (45:16)

This segment underscores the hosts' ability to blend deep theological discussions with relatable, everyday humor.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[46:34 – End] Wrapping Up with Insights

Marty and Brent conclude the episode by reiterating the importance of heartfelt prayer aligned with Jesus’ teachings. They urge listeners to move beyond rote recitations and engage in authentic, sincere conversations with God. The hosts emphasize community support, mutual growth, and the shared journey of understanding faith in a complex world.

Final Encouragement:

"We are partners in what God is doing in the world."
— Marty Solomon

They also tease upcoming episodes, including a future discussion on the Lord’s Prayer with guest Josh Gumpson, promising continued exploration of prayer practices and their biblical foundations.

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Marty Solomon:

  "This was one of the key passages that made me leave the Catholic Church, the repetition and the many words."
  [02:10]

• Brent Billings:

  "Never let your prayer be interrupted, even if you are getting bit on the ankle by a poisonous snake. If you do, the snake will die and not you."
  [06:32]

• Brent Billings:

  "This is what you're supposed to say versus Jesus says different stuff when he's doing exorcisms or healing people."
  [28:09]

• Marty Solomon:

  "We are supposed to be partners in carrying out whatever it is we are praying for."
  [37:17]

• Brent Billings:

  "We have to believe that he's listening already, that he's good, that he wants to give us what we ask for already before we ask it."
  [34:23]

• Marty Solomon:

  "We are partners in what God is doing in the world."
  [38:23]

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Final Notes:

Listeners are encouraged to visit vamontoceptorship.com for show notes, resources, and ways to connect with the hosts. The episode emphasizes the balance between prayer and active participation in faith, highlighting the enduring relevance of biblical teachings in contemporary spiritual practice.

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This summary captures the essence of Episode 448 of The BEMA Podcast, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven’t listened while retaining the depth and engaging nature of the original discussion.

Transcript

[Marty Solomon]

Foreign. This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I'm with Al Grover Fricks to step into the prayer closet and shut the door on the babbling pagans.

[Brent Billings]

I will immediately say, no mea culpa. That is all 100% Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

I take full credit. Yeah, I'm quite pleased with it. Excellent. What are we doing in this closet?

[Brent Billings]

I don't know.

[Marty Solomon]

What's wrong with the babbling pagans?

[Brent Billings]

Oh, dear. All good questions. Where are we? Where are we other than in a hypothetical prayer closet? Well, Jesus has still been teaching us how to be light in the world, how to walk out Torah. We've had this long, in depth, challenging episode at least last week, trying to solve the quote unquote problem of reward and wages. This week is not that big. Sigh of relief, mostly from me. So we're going to read the passage, we're going to have fun splashing around in rabbinic literature. We're going to get a little deeper usual into the Greco Roman Mediterranean context and then we'll ask some more questions to wrap up. So it should be a good time, not necessarily a long time. We love that at times.

[Marty Solomon]

Sure, yeah, yeah, I'm here. I'm here for it.

[Brent Billings]

This is the Leb. We're out of the kjv. Sweet, blissful relief.

[Marty Solomon]

Thank you. Thank you so much. And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites because they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets in order that they may be seen by people. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward in full or wages perhaps. But whenever you pray, enter into your inner room and shut your door and pray to your father who is in secret. And your father who sees in secret will reward you. But when you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the pagans, for they think that because of their many words they will be heard. Therefore, do not be like them. For your father knows what you need before you ask him.

[Brent Billings]

Amazing. What stands out to you, Brent Billings?

[Marty Solomon]

This was one of the key passages that made me leave the Catholic Church, the repetition and the many words. And I was like, the rosary is too many words and it's too repetitious. I apparently glossed over entirely the pagans part of that sentence because I don't know that I would necessarily consider my Catholic brothers and sisters to be pagans. So I'm not quite sure what I was doing there. But yeah, you know, selective reading.

[Brent Billings]

We're European barbarians. So what the Romans and the Greeks would have said anyways. Indeed.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes. Yes.

[Brent Billings]

We're beyond saving.

[Marty Solomon]

So there's that also just the fact that it's initially don't be like the hypocrites, but then later it's don't be like. Like the pagans.

[Brent Billings]

Right.

[Marty Solomon]

So I'm wondering what's going on there with those two different things. I'm wondering what the inner room is like. Yeah, I always think of it as a closet. I think that's even how we have it in our notes. But what does inner room actually entail in shutting the door? In what way? What kind of doors do they have? Like how. Like what does this whole situation actually look like?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, beyond my set, 18 booby traps, Indiana Jones style, I have a big boulder that comes down and smashes anyone interrupts you.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. What does it mean that the father sees in secret?

[Brent Billings]

Father who is in secret as well.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, Father who is in secret. Which. Yeah, I mean, I think. I don't know. And this might just be the Leb. Like the way it's translating it makes me notice that part of it when I hadn't necessarily noticed it before. But. Yeah. What does it mean to see in secret? Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Excellent, excellent questions. I expected no less.

[Marty Solomon]

Thank you.

[Brent Billings]

So Marty talked about the hypocritas already, so I won't be talking about that today. Too bad. If you are curious, go back and listen to our executive producer, our host of the Bama podcast.

[Marty Solomon]

Boy. What would that be? That'd probably be episode 97.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, it's in the first go through actors, I believe is the big take there.

[Marty Solomon]

If it's not in 97, I'll put the proper episode in the show notes.

[Brent Billings]

But we're gonna get into it. We'll do Talmud and we'll do Greco Roman context. So first, hopefully answering these questions along the way, some general Talmudic prayer rules, not limited to length, will set foundation layer first that way. And then we'll pivot to look at specific Talmudic rules around the length of prayers. So this is one of our classic great lists that we love, or at least I love. It's one of my favorite things. So here we go. The three times a day has already been established for prayer by the time of Jesus's era, along with the reading of the Shema, the praying of the Shema. Usually I'm not so, like concrete about. No, we know that this is pre Jesus, but this is the one. One of the ones where we really do know they are praying. Three Times a day. Like the Shema says, you should pray when you're standing up and also when you're lying down. And so there are some extensive rabbinic comment that I found. People were upset with Shammai because he was so literal and stringent with the you must pray while you're l down. That he was having people lay down on the highway to pray, and then they were being robbed. Big problems. So Hillel, you know, said that you could make some. There was some wiggle room there, thankfully. Thanks, Hillel. They said, never let your prayer be interrupted, even if you are getting bit on the ankle by a poisonous snake. Bitten on the ankle by a poisonous snake. If you do. If you do get bit by a poisonous snake while you're praying, the snake will die and not you.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, okay. Pretty baller, I was going to say. That seems to pair well with the idea of, like, when. When you're dying, you want either Shema or whatever to be on your lips.

[Brent Billings]

You're already there.

[Marty Solomon]

Well done.

[Brent Billings]

No problem. It also reminds me of the extra markin ending. If you don't know what I'm talk. Talking about, go to the end of Mark and you'll see, hopefully a little footnote in your Bible that says, this is probably from later manuscripts or it won't be there at all. But it says that they were handling snakes, Right? So maybe this about their prayers. Just a thought. Maybe the person in the voice of Mark was saying, nothing could stand against their prayers. It also, for me, makes me think of my prayers at home with the kids, which are constantly interrupted. Prayers before dinner, prayers before bed. There's lots of discipleship that happens there with like, shh, stop. No. So I guess my children are more challenging than poisonous snakes, is what I'm saying. And delightful.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, like, it's so quick to happen, too. It's like, okay, let's do Our dear Jesus. Darius is like, okay, you go first. And like, I'm halfway through the first.

[Brent Billings]

Item, and an explosion breaks out.

[Marty Solomon]

What does an owl sound like? Like what? How did you come up with that question? In the three seconds I've been praying?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. Incredible. What a delight. Number four, do not pray in a ruin because you will get mugged or in a market because you'll be robbed. Walk about four cubits away from either a ruin or market and you should be fine. According to the rabbis, which, according my research, is a little bit sketchy because four cubits appears to be only about six and a half feet in Greco Roman measurements. Anyway, it's like, I don't know, that being six and a half feet away from a ruin would keep you from.

[Marty Solomon]

Getting mugged, but a ruin, like. Like the remains of a building?

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Is that what we're talking about?

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

What. Why would. Why would you even be there?

[Brent Billings]

Because you're on a. On a teaching tour.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Obviously, super practical, very important. Everybody have to also be four cubits away from anyone dirty when you're praying. That applies to a person, a dog, a pig, a chicken, or a malodorous pile of dung. I have questions about what if it's not malodorous, then can you still pray next to it? What's the. What's the scale for judging the odor of a pile of dung?

[Marty Solomon]

I don't know, but I. I say, you know, take the. Put the extra fence around that. I'm on board with that rule.

[Brent Billings]

What if it's diaper involved? You know, what if you can't pray in your kitchen anymore because the trash can or your diaper genie or whatever is in there?

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

Questions number five, or possibly six. Who could even say, if you can't get away from malodorous pile of dung, as long as it's not taller than 10 hand breadths high or 10 hand breaths deep, you can just face the other way.

[Marty Solomon]

That's. That's too much.

[Brent Billings]

Too much time. Just in general.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much a hand breath is, but if there's 10 of anything, that's too much.

[Brent Billings]

You can recite the Shema if you're in a tree, but only if it's an olive tree or a fig tree. And if you're working in that tree.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

If you own the tree, you have to come down.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, okay.

[Brent Billings]

Brings Zacchaeus to mind for me. But in this particular passage, Jesus is specifically commenting on the pole, not on the place, not ruins and malodorous piles of dung, but on the length of prayers. To hear the specifics on length.

[Marty Solomon]

I'm very anxious to hear this.

[Brent Billings]

A few folks in the minority in rabbinic literature say that short is better and that God actually rebuked Moses at the sea of reeds for taking too long with this prayer, which would be pretty funny if you're praying and then you hear a voice from heaven being like, let's speed this thing up.

[Marty Solomon]

Shut up already. Just part the Red Sea already.

[Brent Billings]

Skip to the end. In general, the consensus is that long praying is good for people who are forced to listen to you. The idea is that if you're in synagogue or whatever, and there's a bunch of people and they don't really want to pay attention. They'll accidentally hear something good if you keep going for a long time. The scale for our children, again, three seconds before sudden pivot to owls. So I don't know. I don't know. There is lots of conversation about how your prayer is more likely to be heard by God if it is long. Supposedly, that's the only reason God heard Hannah's prayer, which is kind of a bummer. And that's one of the things specifically that Jesus argues against, because he says, thinking their many words will make them heard in verse seven. But that was one of the pieces of consensus eventually, along the way in time, they set one hour as the appropriate time for prayer. And if you attend a synagogue or a temple service today, the prayer service is about an hour long. But they also said you should wait an hour after prayer, because Psalm 140 says, yes, the righteous give thanks to your name, and the righteous sit before your face. But they also said you should probably wait an hour before your prayer because of Psalm 84. And so if you do the math, if you have three hours of prayer. Yeah, Three times a day.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Nine hours of prayer a day.

[Marty Solomon]

I was doing that math, and I was like, what in the world? How does. How does society function?

[Brent Billings]

Well, they had an answer. How did their learning remain and their work done? Yet since they were pious, their learning was preserved and their work blessed. So you're just not holy enough, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, I believe it.

[Brent Billings]

But were they podcast sound engineers, though? That's the question.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, well, probably.

[Brent Billings]

Last. Last quote, which delights my soul. Three things prolong in the years of a person if one terries long in his prayer at his table and at the privy. But to tarry long in his prayer is the most excellent.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, I don't even know what that means.

[Brent Billings]

You don't know what a privy is?

[Marty Solomon]

I don't know. There's a lot of weird words.

[Brent Billings]

You choose not to know what privy is, that's fine.

[Marty Solomon]

I don't read the King James Lynn.

[Brent Billings]

Saying, take a long time in the bathroom and you'll live a long time. So if you're confused, the takeaway is that you should pray for a long time, according to most of the Talmud, because of everyone forced to listen to you, and because God is more likely to hear you and because it extends your life. And it's because what the Bible says righteous people do according to Talmudic interpretation, seems fair. Okay, I want to address that closet question while we're still here in the Rabbinic literature.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

So inner chamber or closet? Why. Why does he pick this particular framework? Jesus could have said, go to an empty room. Seems like it would suffice. Go to an abandoned structure, go to an isolated place. Jesus went to isolated places for whole days of prayer and silence, right?

[Marty Solomon]

Yes, yes.

[Brent Billings]

So why did he pick this particular term? Here's a little suggestion from the Rabbinic literature. It's a teaching about a man who took refuge in the chamber within his chamber. So I would argue a closet and an order to pray to the Lord and fast. And that man who took refuge in his closet in order to pray to the Lord and fast was Yosef during the seven years that he was ducking temptation from Potiphar's wife. So why is that important? Jesus is talking about, along with many things in the Sermon on the Mount, how to make it through domination from empire. Right. How do we possibly walk out Torah in this complex, chaotic world in which we live? We have Roman oppression. We have all these things going on. You still want me to walk out Torah? Yes, says Jesus. How do we do that? Jesus says to use our prayer as our refuge in the same way that Yosef, who was seized unjustly by his brothers and delivered into the hands of a hostile empire, just as Jesus would be, invites his people. Jesus invites his people to see a strategy for spiritual survival as prayer in private. Just maybe he's pulling on this teaching to encourage the people who are undergoing domination, suffering and temptation and chaos to maintain their integrity. Integrity, Deduct temptation by praying. Just an idea. But that's not all Jesus says. So going back to the whole. The whole passage here, he says, don't pray for a long time like the Gentiles do, for they think by their many words they will be heard. So that talks about the time issue. Keeping in mind, Jesus's prayers were short. Right. If you think about the. When he healed people or when he did exorcisms, they're just like you are healed or get out of him or on the cross, forgive them. They know not what they do. But he also took long days away just to pray. He stayed up vigil all night in the garden before his murder. Right. So what is this gentile, pagan component he's talking about? Why is he bringing length in specifically in regard to pagans? So let's look at the Greco Roman prayer strategy together.

[Marty Solomon]

Greco Roman prayer strategy. Okay. All right.

[Brent Billings]

Pivoting from Talmud to Greco Roman. So there's generally three types of Greco Roman prayers. We're going to look at them. Look at the steps involved. The first Greco Roman prayer is a civic ceremonial prayer. And this is how you do it. Number one, you invoke the deity. Number two, you give the reason for your prayer. And number three, you make your request. So Livy records Fabius Maximus is saying, jupiter Optimus Maximus and you other gods who have power over us. I love the thread of the unknown.

[Marty Solomon]

God, by the way. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Miscellaneous. I don't know.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, yeah, that's great.

[Brent Billings]

I pray and beseech you to favor the Roman people and the legions in the struggle. May you inspire us with courage and grant us victory over enemies. Feels very sports to me. Feels pretty locker room. There is no, like, self deprecation. There's no though I deserve it, not oh, great and powerful Jupiter. There's no grant me this one wish and I will ever live purely before you. None of that shows up. It's just the deity is Jupiter. The reason is we need favor and the struggle and the request is for courage and victory.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay. Nice and short. Too.

[Brent Billings]

Nice and short. Yeah, I get. Which is important when we're trying to figure out what Jesus is talking about. Cicero gives us a standard civic prayer. O Jupiter Optimus Maximus, whom we honor with sacred rites and festivals, we beseech you to protect our city and grant us prosperity, hear our supplications and avert all ill omens. The end. Again, very dinner. Grace. We've got our deity Jupiter forgot our reason, we have a sacred festival and our request is prosperity and protection for Mill. It doesn't feel very long to me, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Nope. Fits well in all those contexts like you said.

[Brent Billings]

So we scratch that possibility off our list. It doesn't seem like Jesus is talking about civic ceremonial prayer. What about number two, household prayer? Here's an example that we have preserved Father Mars, be gracious, keep away disease, barrenness and disaster, grant good harvest and healthy livestock. The end.

[Marty Solomon]

Short again.

[Brent Billings]

Short again. Even shorter.

[Marty Solomon]

When and where are they praying? Something like a household prayer.

[Brent Billings]

I'm so glad you asked.

[Marty Solomon]

Thank you.

[Brent Billings]

I have a Wikipedia article just for this. Okay, so you have your household shrine. It's probably in the threshold of your house. So if you don't know what that looks like, it's a little, like, shelf that sticks out from the wall. And then you have a little statue of your deity to whom your household has allegiance. Sometimes, by the way, there's only one arm on these deities because there's a hole where they'd put a wooden arm. So that, like, a Barbie, you could stick the arm out when you had, like, an offering to give it, and then you could put your bread or oil or whatever you were giving to the deity onto this little Barbie arm.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Delightful to me as far as idolatry goes. Right, so you again. It's not long. They're not stating their theology. They're not in a patronage way, going over, these are all the things you have done for me, Mars, and these are all the things that I will do for you. It's just like, hey, this is what I need. Bye. So again, I gotta cross it off of our list of long prayers that Jesus appears to be referencing. The pagans aren't doing this on their house on the way out to the fields. This is not long. So that leaves our last possibility here.

[Marty Solomon]

Which. Which article was that, by the way? Is this the Larry's or whatever? Okay, sorry to interrupt. Back to your final possibility.

[Brent Billings]

Yes, final possibility. We've got magical prayers. Magical prayers. This one comes with divine names, many titles, much theology, many repetitions. Why would you be doing one of these kinds of prayers? It's a situation which, I mean, we've all been there. You're trying to keep your venge ancestors from haunting your house. You've done the thing where you split, spit out black beans and state what you need nine times over each black bean. And so now you need to seal the thing off with one of these prayers. These are a longer. Why? You're trying to get something done. You're trying to do some manipulation. You want something out of the ordinary. You don't just want normal protection or favor or whatever. You have a problem, and that problem is the spirits of unburied ancestors being in your house. You are motivated, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, I don't know about unburied ancestors, but thinking like, oh, I'm gonna miss my flight, help me get through this security line faster, or whatever.

[Brent Billings]

That would be an arrow prayer for me to just shoot up real fast like, oh, God, I need your help. May Tsea be kind to me.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

That wouldn't be one of my. Oh, Father who art in heaven. I wouldn't begin all of that. But maybe, maybe we're different and that's okay.

[Marty Solomon]

By the way, if you're trying to take about five stickers and a giant brick through tsa, they are going to pull your bag, probably.

[Brent Billings]

So that's good to know. Good to know. I'm going to include for our learning here one of these magical prayers, which is Greco, Egyptian, Jewish, from the Era. Because I want us to hear the difference between this kind of prayer that I believe Jesus is referencing and the ones we've talked about already. If you're confused because I was being funny, which I always think I'm being funny. But if you're confused by the fact that I brought in the vengeful ancestors from haunting your house, that's for this prayer. But that's not limited to just vengeful ancestors. That's just my example. There's lots of different kinds of magical prayers for lots of things. There's whole books out there of prayers of this era that are like, how to get someone to love you back and such.

[Marty Solomon]

Are these, like, standardized prayers or we just.

[Brent Billings]

They're prayer books.

[Marty Solomon]

Prayer books.

[Brent Billings]

Prayer books that you can find. Sometimes we know how the prayer goes because they're written on, like, execration bowls. Sometimes they're on, like, dolls that get buried under the floorboards. There's lots of versions of these that you find that then get compiled. But yeah. Yes, okay. Sometimes you buy them from someone who can give. Who knows what they're doing, who gives it to you. Right. Et cetera. So I'm reading most of. Well, I'm reading a big portion of this prayer, but I've deleted portions and names and titles and gobbledygook syllables because I don't come to play, Brent. I'm not messing around with accidentally pulling on a thread that I don't want to pull on.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

If there's people out there who think I'm being extra, that that's fine. You can think that that's okay. But I don't, you know, there's just no reason to read this whole thing and spin the. You know, roll the dice on anything. So what is Jesus talking about when he says, you guys sound pagan? Here's an example, I believe, of a pagan prayer that is lengthy. And then we're going to do some comparison. What does it look like when we pray? Who does it sound like? Okay, here we go.

[Marty Solomon]

Now I'm scared.

[Brent Billings]

Don't be scared.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Probably I deleted a lot.

[Marty Solomon]

No, no, no. Not. Not about this prayer. The comparison.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, okay. I'm like, oh, no, here it goes. I call upon you, headless one, who created earth and heaven, who created night and day. You, who created light and darkness. You are the one whom no one has ever seen. You have distinguished between the just and the unjust. You have made female and male. You have revealed seeds and fruits. You have made men love each other and hate each other. I am Moses, your prophet, to whom you have transmitted your mystery celebrated by Israel. Just a little point. This is a pagan Jewish syncretic prayer tradition, potentially one of the reasons Jesus is annoyed.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Brent Billings]

Back to the prayer. You have revealed the moist and the dry in all nourishment. Hear me, I am the messenger. This is your true name, which has been handed down to the prophets of Israel. Insert something here that I will not say. Hear me. Insert more gobbledygook. I will not say. Hearken to me and turn back this demon. I call upon you, terrible, unseen God with an empty spirit. More things that I'm not going to say. Holy Headless One, deliver him. Insert name here. Of whoever you're praying for from the demon that holds on to him. More gobbledygook. Strong Headless one, deliver him. Name here. From the demon that holds onto him. More gobbledygook. Deliver him. Insert name here. Gobbledygook. He is the Lord of the gods. He is the Lord of the inhabited world. He is the one whom the winds fear. He is the one who has made all things by the command of his voice. Lord King, Master Helper, save this soul. Then gobbledygook. It keeps going on for pages.

[Marty Solomon]

What do you notice, Brent, that's very repetitious. I mean, even with cutting so much of it, it already feels long.

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

What is the Headless One thing about where does that title.

[Brent Billings]

It sounds ominous, but I'm so glad you asked. It has to do with eternality. So when we think head in our context, we think like authority. When they thought head, they thought primacy temporally. If that's confusing to you, I will try again. They meant it has no head, as in a river has no head, it has no fountain, it has no beginning or an end. So they're talking the supernatural being, which they believe is immortal and eternal, and therefore it doesn't have a head.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay, okay. And then who. Who are we expecting to use this prayer? Like, what kind of time frame does this come from?

[Brent Billings]

It comes from between the 1st century BC and the 1st century AD and there's a lot of Egyptian syncretism in the Greco Roman Empire. It's one of the reasons it's fun to study all of the things, because they all weave and blend together.

[Marty Solomon]

So the hearers of the Sermon on the Mount very likely were familiar with this particular prayer, even potentially, perhaps.

[Brent Billings]

There's lots of different versions. The person who's giving it, you'll notice if you were listening to the prayer and you weren't like, just skipping over it because maybe you're nervous like me. You're talking about somebody else. It says, deliver him. Insert name here from the demon that holds onto him. And so we do know about. I have super fascinating accounts of people who worked as exorcists and magicians at the time of Jesus, who were contemporaneous to Jesus and who traveled around the Levant and did exorcisms. So this is an example from that milieu of what it sounded like, which makes Jesus's version cray in comparison. Right. He says, get out. All done.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

That's the end. If you go and visit an exorcism service, which I've done accidentally in modern America, it does not sound like the way that Jesus did it. It sounds much more like this. I will say.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, okay. Okay. Not the comparison that I feared. So I think I'm. Oh, no.

[Brent Billings]

It's always conviction waiting, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

But also, Grayson, maybe you don't need to feel convicted at all. I don't know your life.

[Marty Solomon]

All right.

[Brent Billings]

Okay. So I noticed that this is long. It has gobbledygook. If you're confused by what I mean by gobbledygook, it like lots of random syllables like, ie blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, type thing. It's formulaic. This is what you're supposed to say versus Jesus says different stuff when he's doing exorcisms or healing people. Right. He doesn't say the exact thing every time.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. And the formula he gives you is, you know, the Lord's Prayer, which has nothing to do with exorcism and is relatively short.

[Brent Billings]

Right. Well, we'll get to the Lord's Prayer once Josh Gumpson joins us next week.

[Marty Solomon]

Yes.

[Brent Billings]

It's gonna be good. It also has a lot of theology in it. Right. It's talking to this eternal deity. And it starts off by listing what the deity created.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Like the whole creation story is embedded in this prayer.

[Brent Billings]

Pretty much. Justice and inj, gender, vegetables.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

All of the above. Things about profits. Yeah. There's so many things that they are communicating in spread. Now. I will say I have been blessed to learn from lots of different prayer traditions. I've spent amazing time, beautiful time with people who are into everything from centering prayer with. Inspired by, like, Thomas Merton to Pentecostal communities who pray declaration. There's lots of tongues going on. And so I am not trying to definitively say this is the way to pray. I know Psalm 100 says, enters gates with thanksgiving and courts of praise. I've Gotten teachings on different formulas about how you're supposed to pray. Right. Some people say you have to have confession in there, you have to have thanksgiving, and then you have petition. Right. I have my own liturgical prayer books, which is a formula if I've ever heard of one. I've been blessed by almost all of it, except for that one exorcism service that was harrowing. So do not hear me as trying to slam or shade any tradition or tell people that I know how they should be praying, because I don't. We know that Jesus spent 40 days in prayer fasting. We know he spent all night praying. We also know he used short prayers. So there isn't just one way of being here that I'm trying to say is right. But I do want to still ask us, when Jesus does teach us how to pray, like in this particular passage, are we in alignment with what he has told us? If we do come from a tradition which practices lengthier prayers, what's our heart motivation for checking the box on those lengthy prayers if we return to that heart theme from last week? Right.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, exactly. Because we are. Yeah, I was just thinking of that. It's like, okay, we're still in the. And even some of the language from last week overlaps with this portion of the passage. Like, we have to take those in context.

[Brent Billings]

Right. Hypocritas. Hypocritas. We were just talking about, why are you doing the things that you're doing? Is it for applause? And so I have some questions for us that are based on the heart, not really on the forum, and trying to tell people exactly what their prayer should look like? So here are some questions. Do we rely, if we do, on liturgical books because we don't think our own thoughts are organized enough, are competent enough, or pretty enough for God? Do we rely on any formula for prayer because we don't trust that God loves us and is for us unless we do it right?

[Marty Solomon]

Mm. Okay.

[Brent Billings]

Do we get into a rhythm of including lots of self deprecation and theology because we think God's posture toward us is skeptical and irritated with us and our requests?

[Marty Solomon]

We have to make sure God knows that we understand how terrible we are and how much we owe him for everything, and he doesn't owe us anything, but please, please, please, please, please.

[Brent Billings]

Tsa.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Do we practice a lot of praise or thanksgiving in our prayer because we feel the need to prove something to God or prove something to ourselves that we have earned the ability to be there?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. I mean, good things, all those things are Good to consider.

[Brent Billings]

What kind of beliefs, Brent, do you think we have to have about God in order to pray short prayers?

[Marty Solomon]

I mean, we have to believe that God actually sees us and is, like, actively part of our lives, not just this distant, like, you know, are you. What are you bothering me about now?

[Brent Billings]

Right. We don't have to send up, like, all the smoke signals first. Hey, it's me.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Dressed asunder.

[Marty Solomon]

We have to believe that God actually wants. Wants us to be close to him. And how do I say this in a non? Like, all the tensions of last week are bubbling up as like, if I do the right thing, then I'm going to get this particular reward. Yeah. We have to believe that God actually wants good things for us. And not in a manipulative sort of way, but just like God is going to give us the benefit of the doubt. I mean, God says he desires mercy, not sacrifice. Like, we're not here to, like, do this. Check this box. Like, he wants us to be merciful. He's going to be merciful to us. Understanding, patient. All these things.

[Brent Billings]

All these things. Yeah. I love that list. My list is similar. I think that we have to believe that he's listening already, that he's good, that he wants to give us what we ask for already before we ask it. That he doesn't need us to convince him of anything, that he doesn't need us to prove ourselves to him or to ourselves, and that he doesn't have to have his own attributes listed to him for his own ego. Right. I believe in thankfulness and gratitude and worshipful prayers and beloved spiritual practices, and you couldn't pay me to abandon them.

[Marty Solomon]

But are you sure there's no price?

[Brent Billings]

There's no price. I could let centering prayer go, actually. Oh, no. Okay. I do want us to ask, though, if those are the things required for short prayers and Jesus is inviting us to be like, hey, do we have super long prayers? Why? Is it for attention? Is it for our own ego? Are we looking like the pagans? Are we trying to manipulate God? Or do we believe God's already listening? Do we believe he's already good? Do we believe that he wants good things for us? Do we believe that God doesn't need us to prove ourselves? Do we believe that God is a more than a distant egoic Zeus? Do we believe that he's a generous, compassionate parent? I hope so. And I hope, like Yosef in his closet, that we can find prayer to be our hearts home for all the temptation and chaos and oppression of our Era.

[Marty Solomon]

So I'm reading a book for an interview that's coming up here in a few weeks. And this little passage. So the author was talking about thoughts and prayers and what are the pitfalls of either of those approaches to dealing with something completely outside of the context of what we're talking about today? But this little part about prayer here, even if we believe in and are assured of prayer, spiritual power, we use prayer as an excuse to shrink away from our participation in God's work. And I was like, yes, yes. And I think that is part of what we need to believe too, is like, just because we're giving prayer to God, even if we believe all the right things that, like, we still have a part to play in the carrying out of that prayer. So that's not necessarily, like, what do we have to. What kind of beliefs do we have to have about God? I think part of that belief is like, it's not just God. Like, we are supposed to be partners in carrying out whatever it is we are praying for.

[Brent Billings]

Are our prayers super long? Because we're making up for the fact that we're not actually out there helping people.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Helping people. Or just like being a part of whatever.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Whatever it is that we're asking. Like. Like we can pray for the hungry in our town to be fed and we can leave it at that. Or we can pray for that and then go actually participate in distributing food. And maybe we're not going to solve the entire problem ourselves, but we do have a part to play in carrying out those things.

[Brent Billings]

Yep. Somebody told me recently that they buy something that they know is unjustly made by children overseas because it's okay. Because she then prays for the people who made it. She's using it. It's like, oh, oh, man. Okay.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Well, way to, you know, spread that conviction manure around to fertilize anybody who did feel just fine, including me, before we started. Started this episode. So thanks for that, Brent.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, well, yeah. And so so many of these things. And that's why we do have to praise because. Because most of these things, these global issues are so much bigger than any one of us can deal with.

[Brent Billings]

What are we supposed to do about the children overseas?

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah, I just felt like it was a very Bama style thing where it's like, no, God is looking for partners. And we're not just like little tokens running around talking about what God is doing. We are participants. We are partners in what God is doing in the world. And so.

[Brent Billings]

So, yeah, super good. My Two resources today. One is on the household shrines. If you found that interesting, you want to read more about those? Those are your guardian deities and your Roman hearths. Please don't pick up any to do's from that Wikipedia article. But if you want to learn more culture, as I trust many of our people enjoy doing, then there's that. And then if you're super confused about the headless ritual, first off, that's fine. You don't need to know more about it. But if you do want to know more about it, you can find it at the Wikipedia page, which I just opened and saw that I incorrectly dated the thing when I told you that it was first century. It's not. It's second century. It's a little, little. So a little bit before and then a little bit after when I said it was. But close enough. That's fine.

[Marty Solomon]

Still covers the time frame. Yeah, boy. What, what a resource.

[Brent Billings]

Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

Bornless ritual. What is the. What is the difference in the name there?

[Brent Billings]

Some people, some of the translators of this particular papyrus translated it One who has not been born rather than headless one. Because of the confusion that we have around head heads, which continue in our I illustrated in this episode interpretation of the New Testament. But it's a different subject for a different time.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, well, there we go. We got some resources, we got some stuff to. To work with, and hopefully we move forward with better prayers. Somehow, I don't know, we're not, we're not judging.

[Brent Billings]

We don't need better prayers. We need more bad prayers. But with good Heart Sprint.

[Marty Solomon]

There you go.

[Brent Billings]

There you go. Have more bad prayers, everyone.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, well, you can find those show notes and those [e-mail] or in your podcast app. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can use the contact page. Check out the news page for anything that we have going on, where Marty's going to be, where I'm going to be. We always love meeting listeners, and I've recently been on a couple trips and had a chance to meet like hundreds of people. And it's so incredibly encouraging. It is such a blessing that we get to do this with you. So please keep sharing those stories. And also everything that we do is made possible by people like you who contribute to our work. And so thank you for that. This is an incredible community that we're in and so we're all growing and learning together. And thanks for joining us on the Baymo podcast this week. Working together through these difficult topics. We'll talk to you again soon. Okay. Also, before we get started, speaking of high school, Brent, I have discovered recently a box of books from my high school era, which you have commented on to some degree. But I pulled out one book in particular. Going back to our episode from a few weeks ago with Josh. I found my copy of Every Young Man's Battle, which I'm going to hand to you, and I would like to hear your hot takes on things like the subtitle and the table of contents or whatever.

[Brent Billings]

So, wow, what an honor. I'm experiencing, by the way, this immense collection of books, some of which perfectly delightful. C.S. lewis, you know, good standard fare, other surely suspect to me.

[Marty Solomon]

Surely.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, I will not. Okay. Every Young Man's Battle Strategies for Victory in the Real World of Sexual Temptation. Yeah, the COVID art. The COVID art is of a poor woman walking by. She's blurred out, thankfully. We wouldn't want to have to see her face. And the guy looking over his shoulder with a very distinct dang girl face. I would. I would have something to say to him if I was this. This woman who's been blurred out. I like that. Real world is in. Is capitalized, so that, you know, there's a distinction between the real world where temptation abounds and apparently whatever is not the real world, and that forward by somebody named Fat Chance, spelled with the.

[Marty Solomon]

P, H, A T. Fascinating.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, my gosh, yes, fascinating.

[Marty Solomon]

Did that have a particular meaning to me? Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

No, it has no meaning to me.

[Marty Solomon]

It was an acronym. It was pretty hot and tempting.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, wow. See, the things that I was kept from by not growing up evangelical.

[Marty Solomon]

No. Well, I don't know if that had anything to do with evangelical or whatever, but, yeah, a very ironic name for somebody writing a book about this topic.

[Brent Billings]

Setting your defenses. Sexual honor, Love for her father. Is that heavenly? Or like, I'm hoping there's a chapter called Nobody Escapes from Adventure island, and there's one called When Football Was King. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I have room. I have space. I have marginal degrees of humility when understanding that I'm not in youth ministry. And if I had a room full of teenagers who have to wait 10 years or whatever to get married in our culture, that you got to figure out what you're gonna say. You have to have something. And I get to sit here, not in that job and be like, these are silly titles. And I'm not in this place where I have to figure out how. How to help these people. So at least there's somebody out there trying to help. Do I think that this is premium? I. I mean, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe. The chapter on football is incredible and life changing. Ooh, ooh. Something I just read and won't repeat here leads me to believe that that would not be the case. I like this chapter titled A corral for your mustang mind. Maybe it's just tapping into something.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, don't worry, we've got the whole youth group covered because I also have a copy here of every young woman's battle.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, phew. Does it have a blurred out man with a woman? Like, dang boy.

[Marty Solomon]

It has that blurred out couple who are smiling at each other and dangerously close to each other. They do not have room for Jesus repentance. And then there's a forlorn young woman in the foreground just like, ugh, I wish that I had a relationship. But yeah, this book, this book is good for, you know, learning how the sexual battle begins in your heart and mind.

[Brent Billings]

Sure, sure.

[Marty Solomon]

Helps you understand your hunger for attention from guys.

[Brent Billings]

Interesting.

[Marty Solomon]

You know, it's because that's what women.

[Brent Billings]

Are always focused on is attention from men, not any kind of sexual desire. Very interesting.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Good to know. I've learned a lot today. Learned the secrets of the I bounce that are beyond me.

[Marty Solomon]

That's right. Yeah. Josh and I, yeah, we had that down. But at some point, blissfully unaware.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, that's great. I didn't escape all of this. I definitely still had gestating goodbye and everything that I fully bought into. But not this particular thing. What a joy. Thank you for sharing, Prince.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, onto our real episode. I guess.