← The BEMA Podcast
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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign. This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am with Al, Grover Fricks and Josh Bosse to close out this series by taking a gander at the Lord's Prayer.
- [00:17]
Brent Billings
We're here. We're almost at the end of the series. Just two episodes left.
- [00:23]
Marty Solomon
This part of the series and we may come back to tomorrow MC Matthew.
- [00:27]
Brent Billings
I mean, something future seasons, they'll like block off Matthew from our Bible apps. We won't be able to get to them anymore. They'll burn all of the physical. This is the last time, Brent, and.
- [00:37]
Marty Solomon
It'S not even quite the last time because we're going to come back next week and Josh is going to lead basically the same thing. So we're going to have El's perspective this week, Josh's perspective on the same passage next week, both of them, with both of you. So I'm excited to see what happens.
- [00:53]
Brent Billings
It's going to be a good time. I'm ready. This whole time, these whole two series, practically, we've been piecing together, how exactly are we salt and light in this world? How do we walk out Torah? How do we walk out who God wants us to be? So we're ending the season series at this most famous section, probably in the Lord in the Sermon on the Mount, which is the Lord's Prayer, which feels right in a way, but it also feels kind of wrong to me because.
- [01:26]
Marty Solomon
It'S not the actual end of the Sermon on the Mount.
- [01:28]
Brent Billings
No, I feel fine about leaving it here for a while, a good while. But the reason it feels weird to me is like you could fill a mansion with just books and resources on the Lord's Prayer, no problem. We've had teachings on the Lord's Prayer on behalf. Back in season three, Marty taught us about the radical innovation of Jesus, inserting the idea of our forgiveness of others into the mainstream prayer practice. And then we had Andrew to court on pretty recently to talk about his fantastic book Flourishing on the Edge of Faith, which divides up the Lord's Prayer into these great questions. Who is God? Who should we talk about? How should we talk about God, etc. So it's like, what are we even doing? There's all this good stuff. Surely we can just wash our hands of imagining there's anything new to say. And yet, and yet, and yet, here we are. I was beginning to write this episode, being like, I don't know about any of this. And then at the end I was like, I've got to make sure this isn't too long. So a classic. A classic Elle and probably Josh experience.
- [02:38]
Josh Bosse
What?
- [02:40]
Brent Billings
What?
- [02:41]
Josh Bosse
No, that's not me. I. I don't have that thought. That's the two. I have that thought while we're recording.
- [02:50]
Brent Billings
I love that for you, and I love that for us. The other reason it's weird is just last week we were talking about prayer and we were talking about Jesus's approach to prayer and what he said about prayer versus what it seems like he actually did with his, like, long prayer vigils and etc. We talked about the heart behind prayer and the intention and compare some pagan, magical incantation prayers. So, Josh, if I'm suddenly let go now, you know why. So, because I read a. Read a pagan prayer on the pod.
- [03:22]
Josh Bosse
Yes, I remember.
- [03:24]
Brent Billings
I remember you talking about that with apprehension. But what we're going to do, we're going to look, we're going to sink our fingers into the soil, see if there's any more little seed pods of goodness we can find sprouting up. So, Brent Billings, if you wouldn't mind reading the Lord's Prayer as recorded in Matthew 6 for us, but in the KJV. Why, that's the only way it sounds correct.
- [03:52]
Marty Solomon
You know darn well I do mind.
- [03:57]
Brent Billings
I do know darn well that you do mind.
- [03:59]
Marty Solomon
I was joking around at the beginning. I was like, how can I make this a little more authentic? And I'm like, after this manna, therefore, pray ye.
- [04:05]
Josh Bosse
Oh.
- [04:06]
Brent Billings
Oh. He felt good enough to do it again.
- [04:09]
Marty Solomon
I mean, I don't feel good enough to do the whole thing, but I'm just giving you a flavor of what was running through my mind.
- [04:13]
Brent Billings
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, well, last week you took me seriously when I was like, I mean, if you want to do a different version. And you're like, great, Niv. And so this. I'm doubling down.
- [04:26]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. The Lord's Prayer, the one that I actually pray myself, is kind of a weird amalgamation of, like, stuff from reading through Andrew Court's book, which is what actually got me into doing it regularly. But I've also taken elements from Brad Gray, did a little series on it when he first started the teaching series that influenced some of. So, like, and I have Catholic background, I have various church backgrounds that all did it in different ways. So I have, like, probably. I'm probably doing my children a disservice by teaching them a version of this prayer that they're never going to hear anywhere else outside of this house. But, yeah, this is just one more way to throw it in. And I'm sure it is the way that many people have grown up doing.
- [05:09]
Brent Billings
It, because that's right, like me. This is the version I have memorized.
- [05:13]
Marty Solomon
And this is your episode, so I respect that.
- [05:15]
Brent Billings
Oh, thank you. Thank you, Brent.
- [05:16]
Marty Solomon
All right, here we go. After this manner. Therefore, pray ye, Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Sorry, I have to. I have to get my mind out of the little rut that it is in and actually look at these words and read them as they are written. I'm sorry.
- [05:39]
Brent Billings
You've got it. I believe in you.
- [05:41]
Marty Solomon
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
- [06:03]
Brent Billings
I just hear the classic song, like the classical orchestral thing. I won't sing it. It's so good.
- [06:10]
Marty Solomon
You're the only one on this podcast qualified to sing it so well.
- [06:13]
Brent Billings
That doesn't mean I do it well. Side note, if you're reading along at home, which, what a joy if you do do that when you listen to the Bama podcast, I love that for you. You might note that that classic phrase for thine is the kingdom and power and the glory forever. Amen may not be in your Bible. If you are reading something more modern, it probably doesn't have it. And that's because the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, which is the masterwork of our boy Erasmus, and it's in the Byzantine style. Erasmus pretty late, right? He came right before Luther. The more modern Bible translations are based off of the codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which are in the Alexandrian style and thus much older. More like 4th century. So it doesn't sound right to me without the kingdom, power, and the glory. And we are going to talk about that component on the podcast, even though there are plenty of folks who suggest that that was the liturgical edit that happened later. If you're a nerd like me and you want to read more about all of those things, there are wiki links in the show notes that I've provided for Brent for reading about those manuscripts. And what does that mean? Byzantine versus Alexandrian.
- [07:34]
Marty Solomon
I am such a nerd. And if anyone's ever wondering, like, how come the other people have their own series but Brent doesn't do a series. Well, if I ever do a series, it very, very likely might be on this topic because I am that kind of nerd. So nerd out with me and check out the links.
- [07:52]
Brent Billings
Absolutely. What a good time.
- [07:56]
Marty Solomon
What was the downfall of The Bamaw podcast? Five weeks in codices.
- [08:02]
Brent Billings
20 weeks. 20 weeks in the codices.
- [08:06]
Marty Solomon
I think at most this would be like a three episode series. Yeah, you know, I don't think I can do much more than that personally. And also, who wants to listen to more than that?
- [08:16]
Brent Billings
Anyway, I would show up. I would be on those apps with you, Brent. Okay, here we are in the Lord's Prayer, though reviewing way back again, talked about this before. So this is review season three. Maybe it was a long time ago. Maybe you've blasted through the podcast recently and so it doesn't feel that long, long ago. But the Lord's Prayer seems to be built on this core Jewish prayer, one might say the central Jewish prayer, which is called the Amidah, which means standing. It's also called the 18 benedictions. By the time the Mishnah comes around, it gets compiled. The Amidah is already well known, so much so that when you read Berechot in Talmud, just the elements are listed out. They're like, you already know what's in it. They don't feel the need to type it all out. Now if you are looking at the Amidah in Wikipedia or Chabad or you have a Sidur, a Jewish prayer book, you might say, wait a second, there's 19 benedictions here. L. Not 18. Well, that's because in the first century C.E. or A.D. somebody said, hey, could we add in a benediction, slash prayer request against heretics and people who have taken our faith and then distorted it? And not to make everything about us Jesus followers, but it's probably about us, the Jesus followers. So that section was added and it goes like this. For those people, let there be no hope. Let them be uprooted, smashed, cast down and humbled. So that portion comes later and isn't original. There's a couple other benedictions that we'll see, we'll get to, and they are obviously post 70 AD editions as well. But the rest of it, it's divided into these different sections and we can presume that it evolved over time. There's different manuscripts like Marty's referenced, but the main components are outlined in Mishnah and this and Talmud. And so we are going to go through those elements even though we're not going to read the whole thing. You can easily Find it online. Why? What are we doing here? We're laying our groundwork. We're getting the lay of the land. We're going to compare the Amidah to what Jesus is doing. And then after we're done doing that, then we'll go kind of blow by blow through the Lord's Prayer itself. Sound good?
- [10:46]
Marty Solomon
I'm in.
- [10:46]
Brent Billings
You're in. That's a very action movie. Like your favorite Mission Impossible movie, right? The tech guy's like, we're in.
- [10:56]
Marty Solomon
I accept.
- [10:58]
Brent Billings
Incredible. All right. What good energy. I love that. So the way the Amida begins is we have these three opening blessings. The first one is called Avot for fathers. And it goes like this. Blessed are you, God of our fathers, God of Avraham, God of Yitzhak, and God of Yaakov. If we compare that to Jesus, he's got a little bit more personal. Take at least a shorter one. Right. And again, could make lots of arguments about which one came first and how has it evolved? I'm not really getting into all of that. I'm just putting them up next to each other and making observations shorter, more personal. Our Father, simple. Then we have. God's greatness comes next. So there is this paragraph that starts off like, you are mighty forever. You resurrect the dead. If I'm trying to, like, draw little lines between the Amidah and the Lord's Prayer, I might put in heaven there. Because the upness of God in ancient culture signified power, right? We are ruled by the fates and the turning of the seasons and all these things. So they would say, and yet God, the alyon, the one above all things, is outside of those things and above those things. And thus he's able to manipulate the things of nature that we're not able to. So I would line those up, and then you've got a little thing on God's holiness which starts, you are holy, and your name is holy, and your holy ones praise you. Very easy. That one goes, hallowed be thy name. Right, okay. Easy dunk. Easy layup.
- [12:37]
Marty Solomon
Alley. Oop.
- [12:38]
Brent Billings
Yeah. No. Like gymnastics we got to do to try to set those up. We have a gap here. For thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That's interesting. That's odd. We can bookmark that. We'll come back to it later. Where's thy kingdom come? In the Amida. Hmm, hmm, hmm. So those are the opening three blessings. Then we have the actual petitions, right? The requests. The first one in the Amida is for knowledge. So it starts, grant us wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. I think this is fun because Jesus's first real petition, right? If we imagine the first thing he says is to be his opening blessings, his first real nitty gritty petition is for.
- [13:23]
Josh Bosse
For sustenance, for bread.
- [13:25]
Brent Billings
Yes, daily bread. I think it's fun both the ways. Like, if it's just literal bread that we're praying for, I think that's kind of fun that Jesus is like, y' all are worried about knowledge and knowing more than everybody else. How about earthly needs? We love some earthly needs. Those are legitimate. Elijah, under the bush, the angels, like, you know what? You need a snack.
- [13:50]
Josh Bosse
Jesus's version also feels very much more. Much more Sinai. Much more. It's mana.
- [13:55]
Brent Billings
It's, you know, right. Oh, oh, bookmark that. We'll come back to that later for sure. To go a little bit that way, a little drift into that lane. You could also read it as a connection between knowledge and daily bread, right? So our physical needs are legitimate and we don't have to aspire just to be uber intellectual. But what if he's connecting these two and he's saying that Torah is our daily bread, right? Which is already a metaphor out there in rabbinical world. So give us this day our daily bread. You can read it also to be about that, about pursuing the text and the God of the text.
- [14:39]
Josh Bosse
Also, since. Since this is the Talmudic Matthew series, I believe there is a Talmudic saying that if there is no bread, there is no Torah.
- [14:50]
Brent Billings
Oh, yeah, I know. You can buy T shirts in Jerusalem that say, there is no coffee, there is no Torah.
- [14:57]
Josh Bosse
Well, they're probably riffing on this. I just looked it up. It's looks like it's in Mishnah 21B, chapter three. If anyone cares about it, they can look. Oh, yeah, it looks like it's in Perkevot. So, you know.
- [15:12]
Brent Billings
Okay, so first petition after those opening three things in the 18 is for knowledge. And then they have a section on repentance. Let us return our Father back to your Torah. I read one set of scholarship that wants to put that with, like, your will be done. Which first off, out of order. But they're trying to say, back to the Torah, back to the will. I find that kind of sketchy, but okay, okay, fine, if you really want to smush it in there. But the repentance section is immediately followed up by forgiveness. So forgive us, our Father, for we have sinned. Which of course is going to line up with forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And the way they have it laid out kind of matches our regular Christian systematic theology. Right? You repent and then you get forgiven. And so if Jesus is tinkering here, that's kind of fun because he reverses the order, right? We are forgiven and thus we forgive others. And that is our walking out of our repentance. Is better be forgiven, forgiving be forgiven. It's hard to say in a colloquial voice.
- [16:31]
Marty Solomon
I appreciate the struggle. As I'm trying to read the King James in some probably made up accent.
- [16:41]
Brent Billings
I mean, I was expecting some kind of British. It came out more Southern, but it felt right.
- [16:48]
Marty Solomon
Okay.
- [16:49]
Brent Billings
Felt right for KJV as well.
- [16:51]
Marty Solomon
I was going for like town crier.
- [16:53]
Brent Billings
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Knight's Tale. Paul Bettany, iconic. We're working through our petitions. I'm on target. We've got knowledge, we've got repentance, we've got forgiveness. The next thing they have in their petition list is for redemption. Oh, behold our affliction and wage our battle. Redeem us speedily for the sake of your name. I think that this fits really well with lead us not into temptation might not seem like it fits perfectly at first, but let me, let me tell you, let me explain. Redemption language has a lot of spiritual warfare imagery embedded in it, which this certainly does. Behold our affliction to wage our battle, Redeem us. In the redemption version, it's like people have been taken captive, right, by sin or something else, and they need to be freed, need to be ransomed, they need to be paid for. In Jesus's version, which I think is delightful and interesting, we have more agency. Right. It's not necessarily that we have been chained up by some dark dualistic force, but rather it's our own selves who is kind of the problem. Right. We need to be able to dodge temptation, which maybe that's still coming from darkness in general, but it's about where are my sin issues that I'm aware of, that I need to ask God to keep me safe from myself and my own proclivities. So I'm comfortable connecting those two. I don't know if others can feel comfortable saying the same, but that's okay.
- [18:39]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And I think too that what's interesting with those, you know, kind of two divergent images is that they, they both place us at different points. At the beginning, you know, we're, we're being held captive and, you know, locked up in a dungeon in some, you know, demonic castle. And here it's, it's. We're we're still with the shepherd, we're still with the family. And it's saying, hey, please don't, please don't let us step outside of that. Please help keep us already here with you. You know, there the family is already whole. Which, you know, for me, the, the image of redemption always goes back to that, like, make the family whole, bring that person, bring, bring us back to our place, our home. And so, you know, to start with an image of we have a whole family, please, like help us not screw that up. You know, it's still, like you said, it gives us agency, but it also lets us see maybe the parts, you know, maybe we don't have that perfectly, but it lets us start from a place of seeing the, the wholeness in our community that is there rather than imagining us all locked away in our own separate little demonic torture chambers of sin. And how are we going to get. How are, you know, how are like, you know, everyone's got little stuff, screwtape letters, type, you know, demons, you know, and how is God going to bring us all back? It's like, you know, maybe that part is, is accurate, but we don't, you know, this image, I think paints a different picture.
- [20:01]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah. I love that point. Starting out from wholeness, starting out from like, look, we're in this meadow and I'd really rather not go to the valley of shadow of death if it's possible. If possible. Okay. The next thing that they ask for in their petitions list is for healing. It goes, heal us, Lord, and we shall be healed. I like to put deliver us from evil here, which again might not be immediately presciently, viscerally. Yes. However, if we look at the healing bullet point from biblical, poetic, cultural, historical perspective, disease was often personified in the biblical era and we can see that in the text. Right. Just an example. Psalm 91, super popular Psalm so popular people would write out either just the first part or the whole thing, and then they'd roll it up and stick it in little amulets to wear everywhere. Fun. You know, make text fashion again.
- [21:05]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [21:07]
Brent Billings
But it has all of these things in it that says that compares the enemy and darkness and the scariness with a personified personification of disease. So it has like the air of the enemy is flying right by and right next to that in parallel in conjecture to that is this plague is stalking in the darkness and it's not just like coming up once multiple times. Plague and disease, things that you need healing from. Shows up in the text that way. Especially if you're reading in the Hebrew and it's like talking about it walking around, which aren't the verbs that we usually use when we're thinking about, like, germ theory today in the 2000s. So I would put healing with deliver us from evil, but if you don't like that out there, you can put it up with the redemption bullet point. And that's perfectly fine for paying attention. That's the end of Jesus's petitions, huh? And yet we have so many more. So let's look at which. Which ones did he potentially leave off? Hmm. Number one. Well, it's number nine, if you're really counting. But number one on the ones that Jesus left off. Prosperity. Interesting, interesting. Number 10 in gathering of the exiles, number 12 is the one against heretics. Number 13 is for the righteous. Have mercy on the righteous, the pious, the faithful, the ones studying your word. Interesting. We have a rebuilding Jerusalem 1, which is definitely post 70 AD. We have a Kingdom of David being reestablished, which is probably post 70 AD but hard to say. And then we have one about please, though we are small and etc. Hear our prayers, accept our petitions, etc. And what I love about this, when we put them up next to each other, is it reminds me of when Jesus inaugurated his ministry. When he starts his ministry and it's his turn to read the Haftara, his turn to read from Tanakh, and he goes to Isaiah and he's supposed to read for like a whole eight minutes out loud, just cruising through Isaiah, and instead after the first, this is the year of the favor of our Lord, he snaps the scroll shut right before he says, in the year of the vengeance of our God, he's like, all done. That's it. And everybody's super offended and hates it and is mad. Why? Because he didn't read the part that this is the year of the vengeance of our Lord, he shut it off. And so I'm just tickled pink if it is that Jesus left off asking for our prosperity and for our justice and the righteous people getting what they deserve. And so that's why I've renamed, or I've named this episode anyway, the seven, because I think it's fun to put it in contrast up against the 18. So that's the petition section. So we have three final blessings to close out the 18. So we had the three of top. We had all these petitions. Any thoughts on that potential drop off before I look at the. The last three little benedictions that make up the 18.
- [24:31]
Josh Bosse
Oh, do I ever see this is. This is tough because I. I feel like if I talk too much, I'm just gonna. That I'm just gonna hollow out my own episode. And then to talk about this next week, I'm just gonna be like, all right, remember all that stuff I said? All right, I'm just gonna say that again. But no, I. I love that. I think in so much of this, like, what I love, especially having, you know, done my own little research into the Amida, is just how much simpler Jesus's is. And even in some of the, you know, distinctions you've already made, not just talking about the petitions, but, like, with the repentance angle, right? Of, like, oh, you know, there. There isn't this call to repentance. And it struck me as interesting that that other scholar you mentioned tried connecting it to your kingdom come. Your will be done.
- [25:27]
Brent Billings
Will be done. Yeah.
- [25:28]
Josh Bosse
And. And I wonder if, you know, for Jesus, it's like, well, we did already touch on that earlier, so why. Why reiterate it? We're already doing this, so all we need, we just. We need our daily bread. We need to, you know, forgive each other. We need to try and stay. Like, what else do we really need? Like, I love the. Not just the. The sparseness of the language and how simple it is, but also just how in terms of all of all the things you could ask for, especially the. That big, big fat, extra juicy portion of, like, and protect all the. All the good Christian folk, all the. All the people that are my friends and go to my church and let us all be happy and healthy and wealthy and fat and happy, and all our enemies gonna get popped like popcorn in front of us, and we just get to enjoy that. So. No, we're not doing that. Snap the book shut. I love that. I love that image.
- [26:23]
Brent Billings
Amazing.
- [26:24]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And later in his ministry, and this is, you know, action versus prayer. So it's slightly different context, and obviously there's more going on behind what Jesus is saying, but just his, like, hey, love God, love your neighbor. That pretty much sums up everything. Like, he's just committed to the simplicity of what's going on here. Like, we don't need to go on and on and on about all these things. Like, it's really pretty simple.
- [26:48]
Brent Billings
We don't need nine seasons to talk about the Bible.
- [26:52]
Marty Solomon
Hey, now.
- [26:54]
Josh Bosse
Oh, my gosh. Friendly fire.
- [26:57]
Marty Solomon
Did not have my armor on. I was not ready for that attack.
- [27:03]
Brent Billings
To be clear.
- [27:04]
Marty Solomon
I. I mean, no, in some ways, like, that is serious. Like, why are we still talking about this? Because it really like Jesus trying to say like this stuff is really pretty simple.
- [27:15]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [27:15]
Marty Solomon
Like hard to do, certainly.
- [27:18]
Brent Billings
But maybe we need nine seasons because we forget that over and over and we have to be brought back.
- [27:23]
Marty Solomon
Yep.
- [27:24]
Brent Billings
Brought back to the oasis.
- [27:25]
Marty Solomon
Yep. I agree. So, yeah.
- [27:27]
Brent Billings
So if those were our petitions that we worked, we have our opening blessings, we have our petitions. If you include the not benediction mal addiction, I don't know what the right Latin would be there. But against the Christians, that takes us through 16. And then you have these three closing blessings. So the first one is for temple service. And so again, feels more maybe the evolution, if it's not post 70ad has to do with temple service, but it's not focused on like restore your service to your temple. But if you want to line this up with the little doxology section at the end, I love putting temple service with kingdom right. For thine is the kingdom goes with temple service because primary place of experiencing the kingdom of God is within a place where worship is happening. Right. And praise is happening.
- [28:22]
Josh Bosse
And if we're for a kingdom, aren't we called to be a kingdom of priests?
- [28:28]
Brent Billings
I love it. I love it. It's affording my own argument. So absolutely. If we're following along here. For thine is the kingdom and the power. The power gets put with the thanksgiving blessing. But what is the thanksgiving for? It says we thank you for our lives and our daily miracles, wonders and benefits. So God doing amazing things, putting his power on display through miracles lines up for me. And then the last one is for peace. So in the Amidad says, blessed are you, Lord, our God, who grants his people with peace. And Jesus is for thine is the power of the kingdom and the glory. Peace then gets lined up with glory. This feels kind of esoteric to me to connect those two unless somebody has like incredible sod that they feel like sharing with a glass. But I'm fine pairing glory with peace. Where God's presence goes is glory. Right? Where God's presence goes goes this piece. So that's fine. Like it for a little doxological ending. Fun changing temple service, thanksgiving and peace for kingdom power. Glory forever. Boy, I need to add the the classical music to the to the show notes so everyone can feel the kavod that I'm feeling listening to.
- [29:49]
Marty Solomon
Please, please do.
- [29:50]
Brent Billings
Amazing.
- [29:51]
Marty Solomon
Send me that link.
- [29:52]
Brent Billings
I'll do that. Love links. Okay, so that's the Amida. Any final concluding things between the Amidah and what Jesus is doing? Before I start going blow by blow through what I see, Jesus doing.
- [30:07]
Josh Bosse
I gotta bite my tongue.
- [30:08]
Brent Billings
Don't hollow out.
- [30:09]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, I'm jumping. I'm. No, no, no. I'm jumping to your remez. And I don't.
- [30:13]
Brent Billings
Oh, save.
- [30:15]
Josh Bosse
Yes, save. Elsie.
- [30:17]
Brent Billings
It's like when you're doing archeology now. Like, the ethical thing is to leave more sections. And it's supposed to be like the gift for the future generations. Josh, not saying it now is a gift for 15 minutes from us and also for what is tomorrow for us and next week for all the listeners. So thanks, Josh. Sorry for leading you into temptation.
- [30:40]
Josh Bosse
No, hey, actually, that's a perfect segue to the one comment I do want to make.
- [30:45]
Brent Billings
Oh, great.
- [30:45]
Josh Bosse
And I, I, I, I'm sure I brought up this point before in the, in the podcast, but I think it, it bears repeating, especially in this context, especially with how spare the language is here. You know, when we talk about being, being delivered from evil, which, you know, you all. I think what you said before on that is great. I also want to point out for the listeners that the word for evil in Hebrew, the primary word, is a lot more expansive in that it's, it does not just indicate, like, the moral category of evil, bad things. And it's a lot more similar to our word bad in that it has a variety of meanings. Like when Pharaoh was talking about the cows in his dream, the thin ones, it's often translated as they look ugly. But in Hebrew, it literally says they look ugly evil. And it's like, is the cow evil? You know, maybe, Josh, maybe. But, you know, we, there are a lot of things in the text, things like plagues and, you know, what, you know, natural disasters, things like that. In fact, even when God is referencing his own actions of violence, it will say God decided not to do the evil he was planning to do. And I think we can all agree that God has never once thought about doing something, think morally evil that would go against some serious.
- [32:10]
Brent Billings
Okay, you got me. Yeah, you got me. So I was all for the evil cows, but can't actually have God be evil. So fine, you win in, in this sense.
- [32:20]
Josh Bosse
It doesn't, it doesn't have nothing to do with moral evil. That's not what I'm trying to say. Just, it also includes, like, you know, we, we could say that like, you know, a hurricane that causes all this devastation, like, that is right. Rock that is destructive on, on such a deep and powerful level. You know, cancer is rock. But we don't look at cancer cells and say, you know, repent of your sins. Cancers. I Mean, maybe, man, that'd be a try. That'd be cool. Yeah. I mean, hey, let's not rule anything out. But in terms of, in terms of our. Again, I think especially because of what we talked about with Jesus kind of eliding these, these kind of very lush blessings on the religious good guys in the holy huddle, avoiding that language that is in the Amida. I feel like it's also important to know that, you know, when we talk about being delivered from evil, you know, it's not just like, oh, protect us from, you know, secular society and things with bad words in them. It's like, protect us from things that destroy that. That. And that can include, you know, moral evils, too. I'm not saying this has nothing to do with that, but just it also means, like, you know, it's a broad. It's a broad word. You know, help. Help us not have our lives collapse and be ruined and in all the ways that that can happen.
- [33:42]
Brent Billings
Yeah, amen. Any of the ways from within, from without, from above, from below. Yeah, Good stuff. Reminds me of that Celtic, Celtic prayer just tributed to St. Patrick. We need all the. All the help we can get. And thus that's why we're bringing amulets back. Find them at the Bama merch store, which doesn't exist.
- [34:08]
Marty Solomon
Oh, dear.
- [34:09]
Brent Billings
Writing tiny scrolls doesn't exist.
- [34:12]
Marty Solomon
Not yet. Not yet. Anyway, It's.
- [34:15]
Brent Billings
Hey, good spiritual discipline. Write tiny psalms. Okay? We're going to look at what Jesus is talking about. We're going to apply our critical thinking. We're going to put on our little obnoxious monocles with this fantastic, fantastic piece of biblical literature that we have this fantastic prayer that we love, that we grew up with, perhaps that maybe folks have on their home, in their homes. You never know. So how does it open? But with a big theological problem. Jesus, what are you thinking? So is our Father who art in heaven, or if you're really kjv, which art in heaven? Interesting. So we've talked about God as Father already in the series and talked about if Jesus is innovating or not. So go back, go back. If you don't remember, listen again. But that's not the theological problem. Who art in heaven is the theological problem. Have they not read their systematic theology? Have they not read about the attributes of God? Where is God? God is omnipresent. He's everywhere. Half of Jesus's ministry is talking about how the kingdom of God is in the present and the accessible now. Marty's teaching on reward and wages was about the now. So why is Jesus placing this upward realm instead of this present earthly realm for where God is located? He could have said, blessed be God, our Father, who is right in front of you. A. Because he's Jesus. Would have been. Would have been fun. So we'll put a little bookmark there. We'll come back. I don't remember where all of our bookmarks are that we're returning to, but I trust. I have trust that they're all gonna. They'll come full circle. So stay with me. So we start with this problem. Jesus, God is everywhere and especially here. Why are you saying he's in heaven? The second thing he says is, hallowed be thy name. May your name be holy. Right. That's also not great theology, Jesus. And if you read any commentator, they will point this out immediately. God is holy. It's one of the ineffable things about God. If you read again these thick volumes about like, God only has this many attributes or whatever, holiness is one of them. What do you mean, hallowed be thy name? What do you mean make your name more obviously holy? And we start trying to, like, fiddle with it to get it to fit. I am going to talk more. I don't know. Answer is quite the right thing. But I have a text, series of texts for this particular one. Because surely God is already holy. Surely we're not making him holy. It's part of who God is. Well, I've been working through Leviticus, the text in US podcast, since last August 2024. I had to check. I felt exhausted, like, really August. But stick with me. Big theme in Leviticus. We've got holiness. Right? Set apartness. Set apart for a purposeness through the whole thing. I'm not even done translating the whole thing and it's shown up 118 times so far. So we've got to make the components that go in the tabernacle holy. We've got to make Aharon and his sons holy and set apart. We've got to make God's people holy and set apart. Wait, isn't it God who does that? Yes, and says Leviticus and also he tells them to do it to themselves. Very interesting. Both and. But there's a very specific section of Leviticus, a block of Leviticus. If you skip to the end. Princess Bride reference, which is concerned with setting aside God's name as holy and not perforating it or desecrating it. If you want to go more regular translation, there don't bore a hole in the name of God. So where does this show up specifically? Because it's not just howled be God, it's howled be thy name. And so if we look for this holiness and name thing, it shows up in chapters 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22. And guess what the context for keeping God's name holy is? It's the doing of the commandments. Now, in our regular Christian brain that's not that steeped in Torah, you can get there eventually. Right? Okay. The way I'm living my life while claiming the name of Jesus has to be living in a way where I'm saying God's name is set apart and holy or not. Right? But, but it's so much more visceral and immediate in Leviticus and repeated over and over and over, so it doesn't feel like kind of doing gymnastics to get there. Here's a random snippet of all of the 118 or whatever I just said. It was taken from chapter 22 of Leviticus. And this comes at the end of a huge list of commandments, of rules, of laws. So much of Leviticus is, and it goes like this. I quote from Leviticus 22. You will guard my commandments. You will do them. I am Adonai. You will not bore through the Holy Name. You will not desecrate the Holy Name. I will be set apart as holy in the midst of the sons of Yisra' El. I am Adonai, who is making you holy. So what am I getting at? Why, why are we reading this? In my opinion, you can paraphrase this first section of the Lord's Prayer, which causes theological consternation, because God's already holy into this. You could say, our Father, who art in heaven, may we actually do your commandments like we're supposed to? And I think that's so baller and so fun. If Jesus is adapting from a similar tradition in the Amidah, where you say, you are holy, your name is holy, and he switches it to, you know, it would be great if we did the commandments and thereby set apart God's name is holy, like he said would happen in Torah.
- [40:24]
Marty Solomon
Yes, that would be great.
- [40:26]
Brent Billings
That would be great.
- [40:27]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. I, I, I love this. This is something that, yes, it's, it's all shot through the Torah, particularly Leviticus. And I have, I've wrestled through that myself and come to a similar conclusion that it's like, okay, you know, the other way of looking at it is saying, like, God is holy. Like, that's true, technically speaking.
- [40:48]
Brent Billings
Right.
- [40:48]
Josh Bosse
And what Jesus is talking about is Making it a felt reality to people who are alive and watching us, that they'll look at that, say, oh, that God is set apart and different. Not just because God technically is, but, you know, you have to know all the mysteries and know enough Torah to understand it, because your neighbor's not loving you very well. Like it, right? If we're following the commandments and loving our neighbor, it will be obvious that God is holy.
- [41:12]
Brent Billings
Right? But if we just put it on a blindfold and we're like, okay, I'm supposed to let people know that God is holy. How am I going to do that? Well, I'm going to tell them. And we start doing street evangelists, which maybe, you know, there's a place for not hating on anyone who's ever done street evangelism. But I think when we take the context of Tanakh into consideration, I think this is more what Jesus is getting at. Doing God's commandments is what God says makes his name holy. There's also this little banger of a story from Jerusalem, Talmud, kidushin, which means holy, that I don't want to miss. And it talks about. It's lengthy, so I'm not going to do the whole thing, but it talks about that when the Gentiles. Gentiles. The Gentiles glorify God, when they. Those people that we hate finally glorify God, then the divine name is sanctified. So if that tradition was around, just possibly, Jesus could also be referencing gentile inclusion and what God is doing in the world. So if we add that to our little paraphrase, Our Father who art in heaven, may we actually do your commandments like we're supposed to? And maybe even those Gentiles would know you too. Next component, Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If we're just reading everything flatly, this one still has theological problems when we compare it to the rest of Jesus's teaching. Kingdom's already here. It's at hand. It's so close. You already told us this Jesus, so why. Why are you saying that as if it's far off? Here's why this super cool. We listen to this quote from the Midrash. It says, come near is the time of reign of Edom. Edom is their code word for Rome. You have to use code words when you're under the oppression of an empire. You don't want them reading what you're doing and being like, hey, they wouldn't say it that way. They would say it by bashing Your face into something. So let me start the quote again with that.
- [43:21]
Marty Solomon
Not much of an exaggeration, right?
- [43:23]
Brent Billings
So Edom is Rome. So come near is the time of the reign of Edom. Rome to be destroyed. Come near is the time of the reign of God to be revealed. So those two components for them went together and we have similar interpretations in places like the Alainu prayer. They're praying about people taking on the yoke of kingship in order that God would be king and reign forever and ever. So what's the difference? What's so fun in the flow of Jesus's prayer if we can follow it? What is it that causes kingdom to come? Is it Rome finally being destroyed? Is it our oppression finally ending and all the people we hate getting ground into the dust like apparently Popcorn, like Josh said.
- [44:14]
Josh Bosse
It'S obedience then.
- [44:16]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yes, yes. So Jesus says, when is God's kingship revealed? It is when we actually do the commandments. And maybe even the Gentiles will too. Then God's kingdom is revealed. Whether the nations yet rage or not isn't even on Jesus radar. He's not worried about it. We take care of what we're supposed to take care of. The end.
- [44:39]
Marty Solomon
That's what I tell my kids all the time.
- [44:42]
Brent Billings
Say more.
- [44:43]
Marty Solomon
Just do the part that you're responsible for.
- [44:45]
Brent Billings
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Siblings. We're starting to get into that with our two as well. Okay, so that's the. Thy kingdom come, then we have thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We're getting even more fun. So Jesus introduces God. This is that bookmark we left earlier. Jesus is placing God into this heavenly realm as if we're in the separate realm, despite his other teachings about it. Now we've talked about early Jewish cosmology before on Baebon podcast, I believe. But here's the tldr, here's the Cliff Notes. There is the one sphere that has God in his divine council and the heavenly court and supernatural animal beings, right? You've got like multi headed animals with wings and stuff and the stars and they hang out in their sphere. And then there's this other sphere, this other place. And it's where humanity and earth and our world and natural animal beings and the lower waters. Lower waters, that's hard to say. Hang out. And then there are certain places where these two realms intersect. And often in biblical imagery, poetic places, prophetic places, but also we see them in narrative. The. The intersection of the Venn diagram happens in high places. So you have stuff. And again the prophets talking about, like the angels scamper along in the high places, right? So they're from the upper circle and we're from the lower circle. But where the Venn diagram comes together, then you can have supernatural beings run around. We have people. We have a problem really, with people making altars in the high places. Eden is described in the prophets as being up high in the mountains. So Jesus places God in the heavens, right, in the top sphere, and then talks about bringing those two spheres crashing together. They will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We have some similar ideas show up in rabbinical writings. They're a little bit later, but not that much later in the grand scheme of things. But they say things like this after the Amidah, may it be the will before you, Adonai God, that you grant peace in the upper family, the angelic world, and in the lower family, Yisra' El. And amongst the students who occupy themselves with your Torah left a little carve out for them themselves there. Maybe that's because they're like in the Venn diagram, overlap. But there's two spheres. God is the God of both. But the lower family isn't always doing what the upper family is up to. And then you get into the stories about why that is. And that's because the people who are being rebellious in the upper world have already fallen down into the lower world, and they're hanging out with us and leading us astray. That gets us back into later in the prayer. So the thy will be done goes with the two spheres conversation. The Tractate Sota records a priestly prayer addendum ending that goes this way. Lord of the world, we have done what you ordained concerning us. Do to us what you have promised us. So in the context of Jesus's prayer, I really like how that lines up because it's like we're doing the commandments. It just might be that the Gentiles catch on to that. And then as we're checking our box of what we're supposed to be doing, what you gave us to do, what we're supposed to be stewarding in this world, therefore you check the boxes of what it means to be our God in the ways that we really, really need you to show up, right? And that kind of surrender feels like the thy will be done part. Like we're doing the thing, we're checking our box. Please make sure that we don't starve to death. So if we go back to our little paraphrase, our little own message Bible version, Here it would now sound like this. Our Father who is in the above sphere called heaven, may we actually do your commandments like we're supposed to. And maybe even those people I don't like would know you too, so that your kingdom may finally be revealed and heaven crash into earth. Then, as we have done your commandments, may you do as you have promised. And that segs us right into our petitions. What do you think, guys? Gents, Bros?
- [49:09]
Josh Bosse
Well, you know what's interesting to me about this is the. The. The images that. That go along with this, because I feel like, you know, we talked earlier about how the. The ending lines, the. The doxological element there. It has this very, like, soaring, you know, it's very. It's all very big and grand.
- [49:30]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [49:31]
Josh Bosse
And I think the images that you're pulling out here very much complement that here at the beginning, which I feel like, you know, having. Especially with the way in which, you know, the Lord's Prayer exists within Christian culture is just, you know, it's a prayer you hear a lot. And especially you're going through it, you're like, yep, God's our Father. He's in heaven. He's holy. Like, it's. Just check it. Like, if you're not listening closely, it could just flow right past you without any of those images really hitting. And so I really like that as a way of building up to this kind of grandiose, kind of climactic crescendo that you've already kind of sketched in for us.
- [50:20]
Brent Billings
I can hear the orchestra in my head. I'm so ready to blast the song on my way home from this session.
- [50:29]
Marty Solomon
So I love a good orchestra.
- [50:30]
Brent Billings
Who doesn't? I mean, if you're out there and you don't like orchestra, what's. What's going on? Who do you need prayer? Okay, there are petitions now that I'm done insulting people. Sorry.
- [50:42]
Marty Solomon
We will pray for you.
- [50:44]
Brent Billings
Pray for me too. In my mouth. Okay, that brings us to our petitions. Our petitions. So those are our first entry. If we're have the Amida in the back of our head, right. We had those three opening blessings. We've worked through those. Now we're asking God for things. Returning to this daily bread idea we touched on already earlier, why, of all the things that we do need, would Jesus pick the daily bread? Right. There's parts of the Amida that include, like, asking for rain or dew so that stuff can grow. There's the prosperity section. There's the healing section. I have all the stuff we Need. Did Jesus pick daily bread? I think Josh already hit on it. I think he's staying in Torah. I think he's going back to mitzrayim. Well, not quite mitzrayim. He's going back to the midbar. He's going back to the wilderness. He's going back to the Exodus story because give us our daily bread. Feels very looking for manna because in God's design, God had his kids have to come out of their tent every morning and search out manna every day. When God is God, he could have dumped out everything they needed for a year and then had them can it and, like, have the cans work supernaturally well and then have, like, a holiday where, oh, it's manna day. We get new food. Hooray, hurrah. But that wasn't his design. And there's a Talmudic story about that. And it says this thing with the manna every day. It says, the king had a son. He made enough food for him once a year, but the son only greeted his father's face once a year. Then the king arose and tediously fixed his food every day. Thereupon, he greeted his father's face daily. So it feels like, yes, manna, yes. Physical provision. Believe that God wants us to have physical provision. Not just starve to death, but also on top of that. Yes. To seeking God and his presence and relationship with him and finding him on a daily, regular basis. Like, food is nearly a metaphor, it seems to me.
- [52:59]
Marty Solomon
I love that so much. That's a great story.
- [53:03]
Brent Billings
Compared to whatever wet balloon last one was.
- [53:07]
Marty Solomon
Yeah.
- [53:10]
Brent Billings
It was fine.
- [53:11]
Josh Bosse
Well, I. I love it, too, because I, you know, in having looked at the amida prayers and especially the digging in more deeply, looking at, like, you know, the. The request for. For rain and dew, kind of like, you know, there'd be seasonal rains, and then between those, like, you know, you would just have to get by with the dew that just falls. And there was something, you know, I. I kind of like that poetic bit in the Amida. That was probably one of my favorite parts of the Amida when I was looking at it. But what's interesting is that what Jesus does by switching the image to mana is like, manna doesn't fit with. With the natural cycle. Like, he's not even asking for God, to. Which in some cases, you know, if we switch from asking God from something from a natural source to a supernatural source, that would kind of come off as more of like, a bigger ask.
- [53:56]
Brent Billings
I mean, is there a bifurcation between the Natural and the supernatural. Joshua.
- [54:02]
Josh Bosse
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. You got me. Fine. I'm a heretic. Okay, Moving on. But. But in doing this, like. Like, particularly hearkening back to the Exodus, where the mana was a solution for the fact that they didn't have enough food to.
- [54:19]
Brent Billings
Right.
- [54:19]
Josh Bosse
To carry them through, and. And that it was an exercise of trust. It was a. It was. I mean, this also fits perfectly with your idea about, you know, the whole opening introductory blessings being a. Basically being a call to repentance, a call to saying, like, we can bring heaven to earth if we held God's name in a. In a holy way and lived Torah in this way. Yeah, very much. Then turns this into, like, we. We don't even need to. Like, even if. Even if the reins don't come, you know, we. That's all I'm asking for is just that. That man, however it comes, I will trust. Even if it comes in this way that doesn't fit our. Our society's agricultural norms. Like, I'm even. It's a way of almost, like, letting go of that stability that is almost assumed by the normal Amita. And I. I love that. That image and how it kind of builds on that, especially because. Especially I would encourage people to. To listen to some of Foreman's teachings. I forget where it is, but he talks about the. The test of mana.
- [55:33]
Brent Billings
So just listen to all of Foreman.
- [55:35]
Josh Bosse
Sure. Yeah, go listen to all of Foreman. But he specifically talks about how, like. Like the. The man, the te. You know, God talks about the mana being a test, and he's like, oh, it's kind of weird that, like. Because the mana will just, like, magically, supernaturally work the way God says you should do it. Right? Like, you can't actually break the rules of mana. They'll just automatically enforce themselves. So how is that. What kind of test does this, you know, makes you do the right answer. And anyway, yeah, wonderful teaching. I won't go into that, but.
- [56:06]
Brent Billings
Great.
- [56:07]
Josh Bosse
I love the way that, yeah, like, manna is kind of the first taste that the Israelites get of Torah and is God's way of introducing it to them. And so what a beautiful image to come after this, you know, call to greater obedience and. And then pulling us not to the normal agricultural cycle, but then just go to mana. That's all we really need.
- [56:34]
Brent Billings
I love this. Setting me up.
- [56:38]
Marty Solomon
For me, the angle I'm probably gonna. I'm gonna reverse set you up. For me, the angle is more on the idea of, like, God is not this distant character who Kind of set everything up and just letting the universe run out. Like, he's like, you know what? Once a year with these people is not enough. I want them daily. I want deep, intimate relationship, constant connection. And so, not that I struggle to believe that at this point, but I just always love to hear, like, the intentional things that God has done to have relationship with us.
- [57:15]
Brent Billings
It doesn't set us up, but it was so good. Yeah. Who wants a marriage where you just see each other on the anniversary? I was like, oh, hi.
- [57:25]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, no, good for you. Yeah. Okay, cool.
- [57:28]
Brent Billings
Yep. Yep. Checked. Awesome. Here's your bread. Forgive us our debts. I'm gonna cheat and punt that back to Marty because he teased it apart. So he. He teased it apart in season three. And it's beautiful and it's mysterious and I don't need to put a hat on a hat. So our forgiveness is tied to our forgiveness of others. Go. Go wrestle with that. Go listen to Marty. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. We have. We've mulled on this, so just. Just a hot sec more. The Amida again says, let it be your will that you save us from the insolent and from insolence, from an evil person and an evil encounter, from the evil inclination, from an evil comrade, from an evil neighbor. Am from Satan the corruptor. And I love that contrast that Jesus is like, man, you don't need to be worried about those people and your evil comrade Satan or whoever. Worry about yourself. Like, worry about your own capacity for temptation. Know them and then ask God to help you avoid them. Which is super interesting because it's not like, fix your temptation issues. It's just like, dodge that thing until we get it figured out. Teamwork makes the dream work as you become more like Christ and get conformed to his image and everything. So maybe it won't be forever, but for now, stay away from that valley. If we go back to that sheep imagery. So if we stick on these petitions to our little paraphrase Eugene Peterson situation we have now our Father, who is in the above sphere called Heaven, may we actually do your commandments like we're supposed to. And maybe even those people I don't like would know you too, so that your kingdom may finally be revealed and heaven crash into earth. Then, as we have done your commandments, may you do as you have promised. Let us experience your face and your provision day by day, not just through mountaintop experiences. Help me to forgive others and experience my own forgiveness. Keep me safe from my own capacity to go Astray. Which brings us to the little doxology that I am a fan of and a little remiss for everyone else out there who wants to keep the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen. So there's this story, gentlemen, in 1st Chronicles 29. And in the story David, our king, our guy, he knows he's not allowed to build the temple, so he's done everything that he can to set up his son for success. May it go the same forever. Us know our limits and also set up the next generation. Well, so David is consecrating all of these resources, and if you read the whole passage, the whole chapter in First Chronicles, there's quite the list. He's compiled all these resources together, and he's going to use them, or Shlomo is going to use them to build the temple once Shlomo is king. And it's this beautiful moment and everyone is invited to go again and read the whole thing. But here is Savi prayer of consecration that he kicks off the ceremony. And Brent is going to bless us by reading it in the Leb. He's only going to do verse 10b through 11a. We're short on time and it's a banger as. As it stands. So we don't. We don't need all the other stuff.
- [60:50]
Marty Solomon
Sure, sure. Blessed are you, O Adonai, God of Israel, our Father forever and ever. To you, O Adonai, is the greatness and the power and the splendor and the glory and the strength for everything in the heavens and in the earth. Yours, O Adonai, is the kingdom.
- [61:10]
Brent Billings
Okay, there's so much more in that prayer, but you can hear these little components just. I mean, hint is what Hermes means, really hints. But we have the our Father, we have the heavens and the earth, and then we have this list that includes the power and the kingdom, the power and the glory. Right? And so maybe, just maybe, just perhaps, Jesus is playing around with this daily Amita prayer to teach us how to pray. But maybe he's also giving us something used at the consecration of the elements that would build the temple, because it's our daily prayer, consecrating our temple, perhaps, which is our body according to Paul, Right. This earthly vessel we steer around for the length of our mortal lives. And each day is another element in this life that we're building on the path that God has given us to walk. And so that's our last little tidbit. I want to leave us with that Just maybe Jesus pulls this doxology to remind us of the temple. Jesus knows the temple is going to be pulled down in three days. He's always annoying people by telling them that. And yet that's not the end of the story. So maybe that's why he uses these words when he teaches us. Us to pray.
- [62:28]
Marty Solomon
Ah, that's so great.
- [62:31]
Brent Billings
Wow.
- [62:32]
Josh Bosse
I have to say, as a, as a lifelong, like, oh, this is. This is just. This was added later. This was like, I don't like this. This is too. This sounds too Empire, like all power and glory. You can have your power and glory. This room is like, as soon as I clicked on it and looked it up and saw what you were pointing, I'm like, oh, this is too good. This is perfect. And I love it too because like the, like, oh man, it works on so many levels. Both like exactly what you said, like taking the. The simple elements of our lives and kind of consecrating them for building the temple, the kingdom, the whatever like it. That is beautiful. And also it containing this idea of, you know, the person of David who will not be the one to do it, will not be the one to. To see it.
- [63:24]
Brent Billings
Right.
- [63:24]
Josh Bosse
And then also simultaneously you know, thinking back to, you know, shout out my Mishkan series, Brent, don't feel the need to link it, but that, you know, reminding myself that in. What's interesting is that, you know, the, like you said, there's a bunch of lists of just things they bring. And that can often be like some of the boring parts of the Bible to us. But you know, it's also, you know, in Exodus 25, when God is giving the command, like it starts with have everyone bring these things. And like, that is what it takes to. For to. To mirror God's creation of the world in the kingdom of God that we're building and, and having Jesus like combination of this like soaring, grandiose, triumphant image and on the other hand, this very humble, you know, kind of the menial tasks of just gathering and, and becoming the raw materials for the kingdom. Just like that's. I. I love it. It's beautiful.
- [64:26]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, chills when I realized what you were doing with that. So good. So good.
- [64:31]
Brent Billings
Yum, yum, yum.
- [64:32]
Marty Solomon
And I will link it, Josh, because what am I good for if not another link? So much throwing that in there just the first episode and then people can figure it out from there, which also.
- [64:42]
Josh Bosse
Guess what's in the center of the temple too do what's in the heart of the ark, if not manna.
- [64:49]
Marty Solomon
And.
- [64:50]
Josh Bosse
Commandments.
- [64:56]
Brent Billings
Both relationship with God and doing the commandments. I thought those were bifurcated opposites.
- [65:01]
Josh Bosse
And you also have.
- [65:02]
Marty Solomon
Great.
- [65:03]
Josh Bosse
The stick that sets apart the priests. Wow. It's almost like partnership is the heart of it all.
- [65:09]
Brent Billings
Part of the story. Well, fantastic.
- [65:12]
Josh Bosse
What am I even going to talk about next week?
- [65:16]
Brent Billings
Confident you'll have something.
- [65:17]
Josh Bosse
This one has to go second. I don't want to have to follow.
- [65:22]
Brent Billings
It'll be fantastic. Holy spirit's gonna show up. I know it. We'll be like, yes, this was perfect.
- [65:28]
Marty Solomon
That's the whole point. Did. Did David ever say anything like, I gotta go so that my son can get in here and build this temple?
- [65:36]
Brent Billings
Kind of. If you look. Especially in chronicles. Right?
- [65:40]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. I think he says, like, I must decrease, you must increase. Something like that. Just kidding. I was like, what?
- [65:51]
Brent Billings
I wasn't. I was like, yeah, sounds right. That's familiar. I'm sure it was thumbnail.
- [65:57]
Josh Bosse
I'm triggering away the trust I've won. Anything else? Just believe what I say.
- [66:01]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely. Everyone knows.
- [66:04]
Marty Solomon
That's all right, well, we gotta get out of here so that you can come back next time week, Josh, and share your goodies of the text. So that'll do it for this episode. Lots of links, lots of nerdery to explore, lots of lessons to revisit, even a little bit of music mixed in there.
- [66:23]
Brent Billings
That's right.
- [66:23]
Marty Solomon
So you can find that@baymotta.com on the episode page or in your podcast app. And if you want to get in touch with us, you can use the contact page there. If you want to support our work, work that is possible on the website. There's a link in the show notes as well. Everything that we do is made possible by you guys who support this work. So thank you for joining us in this effort, in this wrestling, in all the things that we do here. And thank you for joining us on the Bama podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.