← The BEMA Podcast
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- [00:00]
Brent Billings
Foreign. This is the BMO podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today I am back with El Grover Fricks and Josh Boss to truly cap off this series by taking a second gander at the Lord's Prayer.
- [00:19]
Josh Boss
And you know what they say, what's good for the first gander is also good for the second gander.
- [00:27]
El Grover Fricks
I have heard that so many times.
- [00:31]
Josh Boss
Yeah, I. You know, honestly, I was struggling a little bit with this one because I. I cannot overstate how much I appreciated the last episode. And just at every single person I've. I've talked to who's in my, you know, larger Havurah, I'm like, you'll never guess the. The bit at the end of the Lord's Prayer that we all hate. And poo poo is now back on because it's a dang rame.
- [01:00]
El Grover Fricks
Doxology is back on the menu.
- [01:02]
Josh Boss
Boy.
- [01:05]
Brent Billings
I tried to. Because I was like, I don't know. I'm a little uncomfortable at this. When we were interviewing Andrew to court, and he, you know, put up a fine argument for it, and so I've been using it ever since we recorded that episode, and I'm happy to have an even stronger foundation for it now.
- [01:22]
Josh Boss
I love it.
- [01:23]
El Grover Fricks
However. However, you bring your own wealth of treasures, and I am delighted. I'm looking forward to. On Tender Hooks.
- [01:34]
Brent Billings
Yes, A blessing on the Bama podcast. An abundance of takes on the Lord's Prayer.
- [01:39]
El Grover Fricks
Absolutely.
- [01:39]
Josh Boss
Like we said, you know, like we intimated last time, you know, is there. Is there going to be a bottom to this? Probably not. You can. You, you, the listener, may even hear some new things that we could not have even conceived of. It is not only possible, it's true. But that's not what I'm here to talk about today. I'm here to talk about the Lord's Prayer. Now, just to give us all a little refresher, Brent, will you please read us once again in the King James, the Lord's Prayer.
- [02:10]
Brent Billings
You guys are killing me. There's no way that's what you actually want, is it? You're just doing that because Al did that to me.
- [02:17]
Josh Boss
Yeah, absolutely.
- [02:20]
El Grover Fricks
It's what we live for.
- [02:22]
Brent Billings
Fine, let me bring it up.
- [02:23]
El Grover Fricks
It's legit. It's historical. We're tapping into our spiritual ancestors, Brent. The path has been laid before us.
- [02:32]
Brent Billings
Hashtag not my ancestors. All right, here we go. After this manner, therefore, pray ye. Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. And give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
- [03:03]
El Grover Fricks
Possibly the most enthusiastic reading ever.
- [03:07]
Brent Billings
I'm. I'm weary. I'm weary.
- [03:10]
Josh Boss
Yeah, let's not antagonize. He's done a very, very good job. Thank you.
- [03:14]
El Grover Fricks
Absolutely.
- [03:15]
Josh Boss
Thank you very much, Brett.
- [03:16]
Brent Billings
That was more like middle school. Brent. I've said this, you know, 10 times today because I did the rosary, and now I'm saying it five times in the Mass. And I'm truly just, like, going through the motions at this point.
- [03:35]
Josh Boss
Yes, well, hopefully it will be worth it. So, like I alluded to before, I. I was having a little bit of trouble thinking what I could add, but some of the themes that poked their head up in your episode last week, Elle, I want to expound more on, and that is primarily the theme of the Exodus, which we. We really only talked about with regards to the mana specifically. But the more. The more I looked into it, the more connections I found. So I. I want to start over and break it down a little bit like you did. Not in the Talmudic way, but just, you know, But I liked how you did it, going line by line, like, oh, hey, isn't this. You remember, Isn't this kind of a theological problem to say God's in heaven and not everywhere? Isn't it a problem to see this and not that? So here's what I want to do. I want to do that here. So let's start. What's the very first thing that the Lord's Prayer asserts?
- [04:36]
El Grover Fricks
That the. That God is our parent.
- [04:40]
Josh Boss
Yes. And where is the very first time in the text that we see this image stated explicitly?
- [04:49]
El Grover Fricks
Well, you already gave us the answer. Probably. That's probably an Exodus.
- [04:54]
Josh Boss
You're right. It is an Exodus. Brent, flip that big old dusty Bible over to Exodus 4:22. And I don't mean to imply by that that you need to read it in the King James. You can read it in whatever. I'll let you. You could read it in the net. You could read it, whatever.
- [05:11]
Brent Billings
Exodus 4:22, you said.
- [05:13]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [05:14]
Brent Billings
Then say to Pharaoh, this is what the Lord says. Israel is my firstborn son.
- [05:19]
Josh Boss
Boom, there we go. And you know what's interesting about this, too, beforehand, if you look up, you know, God and Father or anything like that, trying to find an earlier reference, there might be one that I am not thinking of. Right now. But usually they talk about the God of our fathers, which El, as I'm sure you know, like, that is usually one of the first opening blessings of the. The. The proper 18, the kosher Amida. So they.
- [05:48]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [05:49]
Josh Boss
Go through the blessings of the God of the patriarchs. And I love that in just that first line, our Father, we are drawn immediately to the. That initial image of rescue. The image that God invokes, not to Israel even just to say, like, I'm your f. To go to for Moses to go right to Pharaoh's face and say, hey, God says that Israel is their firstborn son. You better let them go. Like, that protective paternal rescue image is just so, bam, right out the gate. Not the God of our fathers and their merit and our traditions. Like, not that any of that's bad, but just Jesus chooses to tell it in this different way. It sizzles.
- [06:36]
El Grover Fricks
I love that context, because if we just hear dad, we can import all of our, like, our personal, our cultural connotations into that space. But when we read it in the text in Exodus, it's like, oh, yeah, primary identity of God, rescuer. Yeah, love that.
- [06:55]
Josh Boss
And then when we. I was thinking about this. I don't think I would have ever before been just like, oh, yeah. Identifying God with heaven is kind of weird. But I was thinking about this especially because of, you know, the. The ancient. You know, you'd usually associate gods with Earth as well. So I don't know if there's some kind of play there. But what is very interesting to me is when I just poked around saying, hey, is there anything in the. The whole Exodus to Sinai narrative that talks about this? Well, when God first speaks to the people, does anyone remember what their. Their posture is when they get to Sinai and God starts talking to them, telling them the ten Commandments and whatnot.
- [07:36]
El Grover Fricks
What their posture is?
- [07:38]
Josh Boss
Yeah. How do they react?
- [07:39]
Brent Billings
Like, why did you bring us out here?
- [07:41]
Josh Boss
No, we have. They weren't quiet at that point yet. If you'd like, you could turn to Exodus 20, verse 22. Brent, the people are afraid.
- [07:51]
Brent Billings
20, 22. We're going to read verse 22 of every chapter of Exodus.
- [07:56]
Josh Boss
Yes, exactly.
- [07:58]
El Grover Fricks
Amazing. More texts. It's a better time.
- [08:02]
Josh Boss
God rings out the Ten Commandments, and then the people freak the heck out. They say, you speak to God. If we have to speak to God, we're gonna die. We're so afraid. And Moses says, don't be afraid. But, you know, God is. God's coming to us with good intentions. Just chill out. So the People are holding still and then God comes in. And what does God say, Brent?
- [08:31]
Brent Billings
Then the Lord said to Moses, tell the Israelites this. You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven.
- [08:38]
Josh Boss
Ah, I have spoken to you from heaven. And this to me took what you observed, El, of like, you know, God being in a separate place. And the weirdness of that, especially in light of Jesus insistence that God is right in front of us. The kingdom is happening at our very fingertips and is reminding us that we started not being able to get too close, that God was withdrawn for our benefit. God was withdrawn to give us space to. To be willing to take that step of faith and trust, that God has a good story for us. I like it. It's pretty wonderful. And will actually return to this because immediately after this, you know, we have the Ten Commandments. God gives a few other commandments that are usually labeled under that favorite category of sundry commandments.
- [09:33]
El Grover Fricks
Sunry.
- [09:34]
Josh Boss
Yes, sundry. We will. We will come back to that.
- [09:37]
El Grover Fricks
Charming.
- [09:38]
Josh Boss
So we have. We have this image of God rescuing us and also an image of our, of our brokenness, of the. The way in which, you know, we come into this rescuing relationship badly needing rescuing. And, and that because of that, you know, our relationship with God is. Is not always able to attain to that close parental nurturing that there is a. A dissonance there of, you know, our Father being in heaven. Our Father is far away. And I think that that is, again, a really interesting way to situate ourselves when we come to God in prayer, especially because, you know, I'm not sure if we mentioned this in the last episode, but the, the Amida prayer is still, like, the most common, probably about as central in Judaism as the Lord's Prayer is in Christianity, if not more so. And it's prayed three times a day.
- [10:38]
El Grover Fricks
Yes.
- [10:39]
Josh Boss
So this is very much like a daily thing that you return to multiple times a day. And to remember, like, that the distance that we can feel from God, that God is trying to rescue us and liberate us, but at the same time, that because of the fact that, you know, it's not even our own fault. I'm not saying, you know, like, oh, you know, us bad humans, we can't bear to be in front of God. But, like, we're finite. We have our own baggage and scars and weaknesses that are just natural. And that is also part of the situation of how we can approach God. But then I want to. Let's move on to the next point, unless anyone has any thoughts.
- [11:21]
El Grover Fricks
I love the Setting of. Setting of prayer and making room for folks who don't feel like intangibly, immediately in the embrace of God, you know, to be like, here I am. We're so good God. And I know that. And it's out of that place that I show up and talk to you. It's like, if I hear you correctly, making that distance a piece of it. And if you're lining up the commandments. Right. Which was a big theme from the last episode, and that's their response when they hear the commandments.
- [12:01]
Josh Boss
Yeah.
- [12:02]
El Grover Fricks
Then that all makes sense thematically to me.
- [12:05]
Josh Boss
Oh, yeah, yeah. And we'll be coming back to the commandments, don't you worry. But actually, this. This next piece, the hollowed be thy name. This. I think I. I really appreciated you picking apart, like, the technicality of that because especially in a lot of, you know, simpler English language translations, they'll just say, your name is holy, which is, you know.
- [12:24]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:25]
Josh Boss
Again, one of those where it's like. Yeah, check. That is one of those true things about God. But. But when it's hollowed be. Let your name be made holy. Why does it need to be made holy?
- [12:36]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [12:37]
Josh Boss
And this is where I think, if we think about things being made holy. Well, obviously we have the first one being Shabbat in the first creation story right at the beginning of Genesis 2.
- [12:48]
El Grover Fricks
Sure.
- [12:48]
Josh Boss
But the next instance of something being sanctified, that I could find at least. And it uses the same. You know, I checked in the Septuagint just to see how much of this connectivity was there in the Greek, even though I don't lean on that super hard, but it's there. Brent, go to Exodus 13, verse 2, not 22, verse 2.
- [13:15]
Brent Billings
Close, though.
- [13:16]
Josh Boss
I know. Yeah, still pretty close.
- [13:18]
El Grover Fricks
While he's navigating, I would posit, you know, in the name of our executive producer who isn't here right now, that I would make a lot more sense in the Hebrew than it does in the Greek. Because this kind of. We desire it to be so is one of the moodle voices that you can imply, specifically the cohortative voice. Or perhaps if you're talking about God instead of. Yeah, you can use jessive or coordinative. And it would be very easy to slap a hey on there. And it's almost as if Matthew wasn't originally in Greek. Okay, I'm done.
- [13:53]
Josh Boss
Oh, man.
- [13:53]
Brent Billings
Almost as if.
- [13:54]
El Grover Fricks
Almost as if.
- [13:57]
Brent Billings
Okay. Exodus 13, verse to consecrate to me, every firstborn male, the first offspring of every womb among the Israelites, belongs To me, whether human or animal.
- [14:07]
Josh Boss
Yes. And this is right in the. In the thick of the. The first Pesach immediately following the actual Pesach, the passing over and they have left Egypt and they've been given a bunch of laws about remembering Pesach doing this in the future. And then at the end of when God says sanctify every firstborn. And when we think about these last two points in concert with this kind of as a little three points, which I believe in the, like the versing of the Lord's Prayer, these three are put together, and it kind of even works in how we say it in English, the sanctification of the firstborn kind of means something different when we are God's firstborn. Because what does that mean? If we're God's firstborn, that means we inherit God's work. Right. Like, that's what the Bakhor does, carries on the Father's work. And that also has very much to do with carrying on the Father's name. In fact, this is the whole issue with lever at marriage, Yaboom, marriage, and you know, Aaron Onan and why they died is all saying the same thing, that in. In a certain sense, the God initially calling out like Israel is my firstborn. And that's the. The image of rescue. Now this image of let your name be sanctified, this connects even more strongly with what you said l. Last time of we do that by continuing our Father's work and God is holy. But do we continue God's work in a way that also continues to make his name holy?
- [16:01]
El Grover Fricks
The Lord willing and the crake don't rise.
- [16:05]
Josh Boss
Exactly. Exactly.
- [16:07]
El Grover Fricks
Yes. And I believe Paul, our boy Paulos is going to make the argument in the epistles that Jesus is the firstborn. But as Jesus's followers, we're walking in that way. Right. We're doing whatever he's modeling for us to do.
- [16:25]
Josh Boss
Oh yeah.
- [16:25]
El Grover Fricks
Pointing us to do.
- [16:26]
Josh Boss
And you know, I. I do love to the way that, that like all the, the like family tree lineage stuff is thrown around because it really does just make like if you tried to chart out in a very literal sense, you know, every statement that is made about our familial ties to God, to Jesus, it. It becomes very messy. Like, I don't know, you could probably prove that Jesus is our brother and uncle and, you know.
- [16:55]
El Grover Fricks
All of the above.
- [16:55]
Josh Boss
Husband. All of the above. Yeah.
- [16:57]
El Grover Fricks
Right, right. Husbands in there.
- [16:59]
Josh Boss
Yes. Yeah. We can't forget husband. So, yeah, it's. This is where, you know, it's It's a little bit sticky in. In that sense of, like. What exactly am I saying here? But what I love about it is that the. When taken together, this is. Again, it. It gives us God's position toward us and then our, you know, position in real time of. Of needing some space, but then the synthesis of those things in. But we're here to bring about the union of those two things. We are trying to take on your name. We are trying to make it holy and how we live that out and live up to our firstborn status, even if we feel like we're in two totally different realities.
- [17:44]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [17:44]
Josh Boss
And that is where we. That's just where we start here in Matthew. Oh, wonderful.
- [17:52]
El Grover Fricks
So if I line it up, we've got our father, our rescuer.
- [17:58]
Josh Boss
Right.
- [17:59]
El Grover Fricks
If we're going to do a little symmetrical paraphrase here. Our rescuer who sometimes does not feel close at hand. May we walk as your firstborn, as we ought.
- [18:12]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [18:13]
El Grover Fricks
Is that what we're building here? Okay, sure.
- [18:15]
Josh Boss
Yeah. So this is where I'm tracking this next chunk. I kind of want to attack this all together as one. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
- [18:27]
Brent Billings
In Earth. We're using King James English here, guys.
- [18:30]
El Grover Fricks
In Earth.
- [18:32]
Josh Boss
Yes, in the Earth.
- [18:34]
Brent Billings
See, you guys, even. You realize, here's the thing. Subconsciously. How ridiculous.
- [18:39]
El Grover Fricks
More accurate. Because we have the two spheres, and we're in the earthly sphere, Brent.
- [18:46]
Brent Billings
Oh, sure, yeah. You can make an argument for it when you step back.
- [18:50]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [18:50]
Brent Billings
But your instincts say on Earth, because that is how our language works today.
- [18:58]
Josh Boss
I was also just reading from the nasb. That's the, you know, my own little preference for whatever.
- [19:09]
Brent Billings
See, I knew. I knew you were doing King James for L. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [19:13]
Josh Boss
No, I, I. I totally admit to doing it capriciously. I'm. This, this episode is. It exists within the Shad episode. I couldn't make such a radical departure.
- [19:24]
Brent Billings
Got him, Al. I got him.
- [19:27]
Josh Boss
I'm not protesting. I was never protesting it. I said from the beginning, I'm being completely. I'm bull. I'm bullying Brent. Is that what you want me to admit? I'll admit it freely. I was bullying. I made him read the King James version when he didn't want to.
- [19:41]
El Grover Fricks
But. But because we believe in repentance, what we're really doing is lovingly leading Brent back to the path, the way.
- [19:52]
Josh Boss
Well, we haven't got the leading yet. That's. That's later. That's later.
- [19:55]
Brent Billings
Okay, well, let me not delay you further.
- [19:59]
Josh Boss
Your kingdom come, your will be done. Which also, we should note the word will used here. L. Do you know what it is in the Hebrew or not the Hebrew in the Greek?
- [20:10]
El Grover Fricks
The Greek? No, I do not.
- [20:12]
Josh Boss
So this word for will also means desire, which very much fits with the, you know, Eastern Hebrew worldview. Score another point for Hebrew Matthew, whatever.
- [20:24]
El Grover Fricks
Ding, ding, ding, all day, every day.
- [20:30]
Josh Boss
So I didn't. I couldn't find, like, a single verse in Exodus that really brought these ideas together. But when I. When I was looking around trying to find, you know, kingdom words, will words, what comes up a lot is Pharaoh. And there are certain instances when they just read reference Pharaoh as Pharaoh, and sometimes they remind us that this is Pharaoh, king of Egypt. And so one of those is when God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, to chase after Israel when they are leaving in the Exodus. And similarly, the. The Greek word for will. When I looked in the Septuagint, it's used at a couple points where it specifically talks about when Pharaoh changes his mind and decides he doesn't want to let the Israelites go. He just doesn't want to. But the one that I want us to read, the one I want you to read, Brent, is Exodus 1:17.
- [21:40]
Brent Billings
So close. I was actually looking at Exodus 1:22. You're like, I don't know. I didn't find anything specific. I was like, well, I'm just gonna look at verse 22 of every chapter, and verse 22 is talking about Pharaoh. And I was like, I got it, but okay. 17. The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do. They let the boys live.
- [22:03]
Josh Boss
Aha. Here we go. And this, I think, is one other beautiful kind of gloss on this. This little triptych here in verse 10 of Matthew 6. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. In earth as it is in heaven. Pardon me, is that specifically, you know, God's kingdom and God's will is not just something that exists in a vacuum here in earth. It is something that is opposed by something like the will of the king of Egypt, Pharaoh. And I especially love that this comes in so early in Exodus, like, even before God reaches out and starts doing anything. They are going against the will of the king. These are not concepts that existed just because God came here and said, I want to set up a kingdom. We have kings and kingdoms and wills of what is to be done. And it is in contrast to those things that God's kingdom exists why that idea has meaning and power and is something radical, just like we see this kind of radical. I mean, it kind of goes beyond civil disobedience. But these women, these midwives, refusing to carry out this genocide on behalf of the Pharaoh, refusing to let Pharaoh's kingdom come, refusing to let Pharaoh's will be done. And even though they didn't have a clear idea of what God's kingdom was or what, you know, what. What Adonai was going to bring them to at Sinai, they still were able to say, not this, not this king.
- [23:54]
El Grover Fricks
This isn't it.
- [23:55]
Josh Boss
And I think again, especially in light of that first little three bullet points of like, God is our Father and trying to rescue us, but we are distant. There's this kind of infinite interacting with the finite. Weird philosophical paradox of being human beings trying to interact with God, and we yearn to be good stewards of that. And I think when we turn and. And look at the world around us, on earth as it is in earth as it is in heaven, we know. On earth as it is in heaven.
- [24:30]
El Grover Fricks
Whatever prepositions, they're all the same.
- [24:33]
Brent Billings
Really gotten into your head.
- [24:34]
Josh Boss
Sorry, you've broken my preposition lobe in my brain. That we can look around at that and say, okay, this is not right. We need not this kingdom, but God's kingdom. Kingdom, we need not my will, but God's will. And that, I think, is the first step, like this desire for God to come and rule and lead our lives primarily comes from us looking at what happens when our base human desires are running the show, whether that's greed and accumulation or violence or any of those things. And I think that again, as a human being remembering three times a day, you know, okay, yes, like, I can look around me and see all these injustices and without even getting into what the. What. What it means to. When we talk about God's kingdom, what we're specifically talking about, like, you know, there. It's not as if, you know, you can, you can vote for that or that there are policy positions that God puts out every year that we're like, yes, vote for this, because this is what God wants. And, you know, that we. We could probably get into that. I may need to throw in the back pedal button here. But, you know, there is a. A deep sense that is important here. I think if we're approaching this prayer from the perspective of. Of exodus, of. Of God's liberation of God's rescue, God's saving us, that when we turn to the world, sometimes all we can just say Is not this not Pharaoh's kingdom? God's kingdom. Yeah. Anyway, that's the point I was making.
- [26:18]
El Grover Fricks
Straight stick next to a crooked stick. I love that. I did a little looking around because the word will in Hebrew is a little bit slippery.
- [26:29]
Josh Boss
Yeah. What. What word do you pick that as? Chaffets. Is that the.
- [26:32]
El Grover Fricks
No, I would pick for that. Ratzon.
- [26:35]
Josh Boss
Ah, yes. Okay.
- [26:36]
El Grover Fricks
So. And again, that's slippery. People have a hard time translating it, including me. So sometimes you see it as willful, sometimes you see it as pleasing or delightful or acceptable. So it's even harder to nail down in the English, because how are you supposed to know when it says ratzon or not? But it shows up in this one place in Exodus, which is always nice when there's only one.
- [27:00]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [27:02]
El Grover Fricks
And the bells went off in my head because it also has ding, ding, ding, holiness in it. So the Context In Exodus 28, verse 38 is talking about this plate. It's talking about Aharon's drip. It's great, the plate.
- [27:21]
Josh Boss
I knew it was going to be the plate.
- [27:26]
El Grover Fricks
And he's got this turban going, and he's got this gold plate on it, and it says, holiness to the Lord. And then if we jump down to verse 30, 38, I happen to have my KJV up. Would you like me to do it, or would you like to switch over?
- [27:42]
Brent Billings
Brent, please, Please do it. Yes.
- [27:44]
El Grover Fricks
And it shall be upon Aharon's forehead that Aharon may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children. Children. Ding, ding, ding. Of Yisra' El shall hallow in all their holy gifts. And it shall be always upon his forehead that they may be accepted. Ratzon before the Lord. And so my little curiosity, as long as we're playing around in this playground you've built, Josh, of Exodus and the Lord's Prayer, this holiness thing, with God's will being done, and whose empire are we listening to or whose kingdom? God's kingdom. There is a means, and that means is the high priest. The high priest is the one bearing the iniquity of things that are supposed to be holy that we're not. Not quite doing. Right. And when we do that, I love that when that is happening properly, then it is us who is within the will of God. Right. We are accepted for the Lord as well as our gifts that we're bringing. I love that party on me too.
- [28:54]
Josh Boss
And I particularly like that, outside of the specific line you're drawing, like this. I probably mentioned this in my Mishkan episode. I said a lot in my Mishkan series, so forgive me if I'm repeating.
- [29:06]
El Grover Fricks
Myself, but it's been a while.
- [29:09]
Josh Boss
I love that like this image which goes beyond even an image because the. The plate on the priest's head, it like has literal words on it and.
- [29:18]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [29:19]
Josh Boss
How did you say, how did you translate it?
- [29:21]
El Grover Fricks
L. The kjv. The had the KGV say it?
- [29:25]
Josh Boss
Yes, it's Kodesh Ladonai.
- [29:28]
El Grover Fricks
Kodesh Ladonai.
- [29:32]
Josh Boss
So I've seen it translated as holy to God. Like God regards this person as holy, Right? In a sense. But I believe they translated as like ascribing holiness to God.
- [29:43]
El Grover Fricks
The KJV goes with holiness to the Lord.
- [29:48]
Josh Boss
Yeah, holiness to the Lord instead of holy to the Lord. But either way, I like the idea that the person running around with a gold plate on their head that says holiness to God, that that plate specifically means that is the person who carries the weight of iniquity. Like that is a potent image of what it means to stand at the quote unquote top of God's quote unquote hierarchy, which as we know with Jesus is not really real. It's just. We're just play acting these things. But.
- [30:25]
El Grover Fricks
Well, it is. But that means he's lower but he's in throw above all. He's also pressed into the ground.
- [30:33]
Josh Boss
Exactly. So I really like that image and that's actually going to play really well with how I'm going to wrap this whole thing up.
- [30:39]
El Grover Fricks
Oh, perfect.
- [30:40]
Josh Boss
But I think we've spent enough time on that. Unless. Brent, do you have any, any thoughts on this? Especially since you were already kicking around in Exodus 1 and this, you know, these women fearlessly opposing the king.
- [30:53]
Brent Billings
Not exactly. I was sticking around in some of the Nat footnotes to see what were saying about this little chunk and accidentally fell down a doc hypo rabbit hole.
- [31:02]
Josh Boss
So classic. Well then let me rescue you from that hole and say let's turn over to Exodus chapter 16, verse 4, because this will sprinkle in a couple things. This will, this is going to involve mana. So we're kind of getting ahead of where we are in the prayer. But what's interesting to me is that at the end of the this second, you know, bit of the prayer, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Again we have another emphasis of the. The disparity between earth and heaven, the separation we feel, the alienation we feel. We look at these kingdoms around us and we say, oh, I don't want This. I don't want this to be the way God's creation is being governed. I don't want this to be the way the world is run, that the, you know, these people are being crushed and killed and oppressed. But, Brent, why don't you go ahead and read that?
- [32:00]
Brent Billings
Then the Lord said to Moses, I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way, I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.
- [32:12]
Josh Boss
Yes. Now 90% of that I want us to put the brakes on. The first thing I want us to point out is that the bread is coming from heaven.
- [32:23]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [32:24]
Josh Boss
And this, to me is very important because when we think about that separation and that disparity, especially with that initial image, we can see that as like, oh, that's a. That's the evidence of my. My lack, my limitations, my. My fallenness, we might say my brokenness. That's what's keeping me separated from God. I just can't bear to be in the presence of that much perfection. I'm too afraid. And so that that distance can feel like just a reminder of how crummy everything is. And what I love is that this image takes that, you know, that far awayness of God and makes it like, no, this. This heaven is not like just some place that's up too high for us. And it's like, oh, once. Once you're tall enough, you can get up here. Once you're, you know, holy enough, you can get up here. It's. It's not that at all. It is someplace that God's abundant love and desire from rescue. It's. It's not contained. It is flowing down. It is falling down as bread. Even across this distance, there is sustenance. There is life being given, which, you know, the. I talk about that at length in my John six episode. And so I'll refrain from saying too much about that, but in the context of. Of Jesus praying and exhorting us to pray on earth as it is in heaven. I think this mana image, you know, it isn't like it's. It's good on its. On its own. It has its own symbolism and meaning. But I think that manna is also part of how God crosses that gap to us, how we actually receive God's love, God's life giving love in ways that are tangible and real, not just some, like, disembodied spiritual thing, but as literal, literal bread, Literal sustenance.
- [34:15]
El Grover Fricks
And what does Jesus do when he's walking around on earth.
- [34:19]
Josh Boss
Exactly, exactly.
- [34:21]
El Grover Fricks
Well, I mean, bring some bread.
- [34:23]
Josh Boss
Yeah. I think even like the image of incarnation is very much the same like that. Ultimately, God's the vision God gives us of heaven is not us finally becoming so holy that we build a good tower of Babylon, get ourselves up to heaven, but rather that God is coming down here. God is falling down like the manna. God's very body and substance is bread in our mouths.
- [34:50]
El Grover Fricks
That's good. That's good. Bring it back to the Eucharist.
- [34:54]
Josh Boss
Yes. And so then we take on earth as it is in heaven, not just as a reminder of like, oh, earth sucks. Heaven. Awesome. Wish I was there. Dang, that'll be cool someday sex.
- [35:04]
El Grover Fricks
I know.
- [35:08]
Josh Boss
But rather, heaven is making its way here. Heaven is coming here. And it's every little drop of manna on our tongue. All right, now we get to verse 11. Give us this day our daily bread. And now I want to talk about all the other implications of that verse that Brent read. You know, we go out and get our portion every day, our daily bread, so that God may test them whether or not they will walk in my Torah, in my instruction. And I love this. I said this in our last episode, and I'll say it again, because this. I promised it would be short. I did make a vow that this would be a short episode. But Rabbi David Forman has a lot of. He has a really great teaching breaking down how manna is even a test for what God says it's testing. But this connection between receiving manna, gathering manna, and in God's mind, this is so closely connected to living Torah, which when I think about, you know, what you talked about in your episode, Elle, like, this is just so, so juicy. So first of all, any. Any thoughts about that? About how. How receiving our daily bread, can it all be connected to how we live out God's will, how we bring heaven down earth, how we make God's kingdom come and God's will be done.
- [36:33]
El Grover Fricks
I feel like on a experiential day to day, that's certainly true. Like when I am living on the path that I'm supposed to be living and doing the things that God has given me to do, I experience that daily bread. And when I'm not, I'm more likely to be rolling on the ground like the Israelites in the desert, being like. But, like, meat is better.
- [37:02]
Josh Boss
Yes, yes.
- [37:03]
El Grover Fricks
I miss my meat pots.
- [37:04]
Josh Boss
Exactly. Oh, that's exactly where my head was going. Yeah. And I. I feel like a big part of that Is. Yeah, like, you know, there are. There are lots of. Lots of nice things that Empire has and has given us. Some of that. I, I say, you know, totally unironically. There are. There are nice things. You know, I. We talk about it many times, but like, you know, back in Jesus's day, like, yeah, like, Romans had figured out, like, plumbing and stuff. Like, that's.
- [37:35]
El Grover Fricks
We all love plumbing.
- [37:37]
Josh Boss
We love plumbing. You heard it here, Bama. We do love plumbing. And there is a sense at which, you know, when we talk about daily bread and God taking care of our needs, I feel like there in our, like, culture where consumerism is baked into society and how we function, it is very hard to separate our daily bread and this attitude of receiving manna from kind of this bifurcation we have in our modern society of either you are just, you know, loving and living and laughing, the consumerist lifestyle, and you. You just love that there are so many brands that you love and can go and, you know, do that stuff, or we can take this and make it about, like, asceticism and like, no, just take exactly what you need and nothing more, or you are an evil person. And I think that both of these are missing the point of. Or are exist on a totally different axis from what Jesus is talking about here, here. Because, yes, there is an element very clearly on the surface of the mana story about our. Our tendency to want to. To save up more, to hoard, to. To, you know, put a little away that's extra. And I. We would probably even most of us be able to say in the modern day, like, yeah, it's. It's good to save. It's good to, you know, have a little extra just in case. But at the same time, like, I remember when I was on my honeymoon with my wife, we were in Mexico at some resort, and they had like, you know, a buffet, and they had to have signs on all of the tables where they said, hey, food is a precious resource around here. Please don't take more than you will actually eat. It's really not cool. We have a lot of poverty here. Don't do that, please. And that was a very sobering thing to see every single time, you know, we wanted a quick meal. And that is a real problem. But at the same time, you know, I think the. The kind of moral asceticism that we can kind of snap to as a response to that is. Is equally a dead end. And, you know, it's kind of the. The January 1st resolutions response like that, that is also something the world does. The world is, is also there saying, hey, oh yeah, we'll have, you know, a bunch of people, people telling you the 80 things you're not supposed to eat and you know, flagellate yourself to prove you're a good person who is, you know, healthy and right and meritorious. And I, I think that Jesus says it best when he talks about, you know, everything that comes into the world and gives life like that is, that is the bread of heaven. Everything that comes down from God and gives life to the world. This is not something that you can just make some broad sweeping statement about. It is something have to be tuned in and discerning and in touch with God to remember. Which is why I think it's so important to have it in this prayer to remember that when we're talking about daily bread, we're not just talking about our literal sustenance, although that is part of it. But we also live in a time where, you know, speaking to the, the Americans, the first world, people in the crowd especially where like, you know, having enough to eat is not really dominating our daily thoughts. We know that there are many other areas in which that same concept holds true. We live in places where emotionally and spiritually speaking we can be in deserts and in, you know, food deserts. Maybe we have live in a place where there is not a lot of hope for our future or maybe we live in a place where there's not a lot of joy to be had or where there's not a lot of community to be found. And I think that we need to see daily bread in all of those things. In any area where we have need and lack, maybe even a need. We didn't realize this is where our senses can be attuned to God's provision. That little bit of hope, that little bit of joy and you know, especially having a sub one year old who is not great at sleeping. There are a lot of times where, you know, I am at my physical limits and it's not because I don't have enough money in the bank or enough food in the fridge. I'm just so tired and I think, oh my gosh, am I going to have enough to say on this next podcast episode. Did I do enough research?
- [42:21]
El Grover Fricks
That fear never crosses my mind. Though sleep may not be abundant. The wisdom is always abundant.
- [42:30]
Josh Boss
Yes, yes, exactly. But you know, in a very. I'm not sure if all of you out there have read Ann Boss camps book. Was it 1,000 gifts, 10,000 gifts, however many gifts, it's a lot.
- [42:42]
Brent Billings
1,001.
- [42:43]
Josh Boss
Okay. I always want to say 10,000. I don't know why. I've been on a 10,000 kick. 10,000 is. I don't know why it sticks with me, But I like 10,000. Maybe I'll write a book called 10,000 Gifts. Anyway. But the idea that we. When we stumble across something that is life giving, especially in a surprising way, that we look at that and we say, ah, that's my daily bread that is nourishing me. That's, you know, that's not just like, oh, a cool sunrise. Let me, you know, take a photo, post to Instagram, you know, and it's like, not like that's a bad thing inherently, but it's not there for that. It's there to remind you that. That, again, from the top, God is your parent. God is here to rescue you, to provide for you. And even though you need distance, even though we sometimes say we don't want distance, but we. We need that distance on a deep, deep level. And when we can see through it and see the. The manna of God's love peering back at us through the veil, whether it's through a sunrise or really, I don't know, a delicious meal, the love in someone's face, a smile that someone gave us at the right time. Maybe someone just laughed at your joke when you really needed someone to laugh at your joke. Like, I can't tell you how many bad days I've had with my wife where just like, the right joke at the right time just flipped a switch and all the lights came on. You know, that's daily bread.
- [44:08]
El Grover Fricks
And you know what's required, though? There's a requirement embedded in there for us to choose to feel silly, to choose to be potentially wrong about the fact that it's from God and God loving us. And it's not. Just like, I feel like if we were in the desert, we would walk out in the midst of, like, the manna coming down, and we would be like, clearly this is an explainable weather phenomenon. Give me some time and enough scientific instruments and I would prove that this isn't about God loving me. This is just a coincidence. And at the end of the day, it's like, okay, maybe that sunrise wasn't for you and it's just because of pollution. Yeah, okay, well, you've been hoodwinked. You've been hoodwinked into joy and gratitude and connectedness with God. So I'm happy to be hoodwinked any day.
- [45:03]
Josh Boss
I would even argue that there is something redemptive in that there's an element of that, of, like, you know, we. We can get a little too sentimental sometimes and make God a little too sugary sweet and just like, oh, all the nice things are just God and everything else. I don't look at. Like, that's. That's not what we're trying to say. This is again, coming right after talking about, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. Because we see all the things that we look at, we're like, that ain't God. That ain't God. That ain't God. Why is that ruling everything around me? And it's after that that we could say, I just need my daily bread. I know. I know. We're gonna get to heaven. Crashing into Earth like you painted last time. L. We're gonna get there and just like David, you know, piling up all these resources for a temple he wouldn't get to see. You know, we. We can. We can accept that, but you can't just live there and say, well, there's a temple I'm never going to get to see. And I'm just piling up stuff for that. I'm just waiting around to die. But no, you need some sustenance. Sustenance. You need something to connect you to God. And that is. That is real. And that's why I think what you said El before, about that playfulness and that silliness, that is really important. You need to embrace the fact that you are God's child. And if you. You know, if you. If you mis. Ascribe something theologically, like, you know, do you think God cares? Like, God probably cares enough. The same way that, like, you know, when my kid is 2 years old and he, like. Like, comes up with some dumb reason for, like, oh, mom and dad are, you know, doing this, probably because they. I don't know, they really like bubbles or something. And they have some weird theory about. He thinks we're blowing bubbles. And it's like, no, we were, you know, talking about taxes and he misheard something. I thought we were talking about bubbles. And he had some weird theory, some whole world he built about us and bubbles. It's like, okay, like, I. Like, I wouldn't look at my kid and just be like, oh, like. Like, you. You wasted your time thinking about that. I'd be like, wow, you're really imaginative. And that's. That's really funny. It would make me laugh, you know, And I feel like that's. We have to be okay being the kid in the equation. You know, Sometimes we're a little too quick to want to grow up in terms of our relationship with God. And simultaneously, I think it's important to have that silly posture, but also to look at this stuff as. As real sustenance as something we need. And when we put those two things in tension, these are real needs. This isn't just frivolous stuff. And we're not all just, you know, going to be manic pixie dream people just running around having cool spiritual adventures. You know, maybe we'll have seasons of that. But, like, that's not what we're here for. We can treasure those things with the lightness of heart and the joyfulness and the childlike faith that we're called to, while at the same time treating it with the reverence of saying, this is how God is sustaining me today. And maybe tomorrow I'll look back and say, oh, yeah, that was kind of stupid. Oh, yeah. Sometimes I look. Sometimes I, like, journal about things and one day I'll think I've had some crazy insight. And I look back and I'm like. I think I was just, you know, all hopped up and excited because of a movie I had seen and I had taken some concept farther than it really deserved to go. But, hey, you know, like, it was. It was. It was what I needed for that day.
- [48:21]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [48:21]
El Grover Fricks
The mani pix. Wow. I can't say it. The manic pixie dream character gets grounded by the commandments, right? Because if it is just me and Jesus or me being led by the Spirit every day, and I don't have a structure of, like, God's given me things to do, people to minister to, resources to steward, and there's a way that he would have me do that. Then it's just like, like, woohoo. What are we gonna do today, God, you know, which again, can be an amazing vacation. And that's. That's awesome. And, yeah, I think it should be both and. Because we don't want to lose that childlike faith like you're talking about.
- [49:02]
Josh Boss
But, Elle, you've set me up perfectly. Is there another thought there? Because if not, the segue is right here. Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors. Now, this is what really set me on this path, because we didn't really touch on this in the last episode, but when I dug into the wording here, because, you know, we were reading King James and there's some archaic language that will sometimes, you know, sometimes they translate, you know, what we would say. Love, they translate charity. Weird stuff like that. So I was looking into it. But the word here for. For debts and debtors is quite literal. And that's a little bit strange, isn't it? Like, you know, we usually talk about forgiveness of sins. In fact, sometimes, you know, this is translated as forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who've sinned against us. But it's literally debt and debtors. And what this brought to mind for me was, I told you this to come back up. We go back to Exodus 20, the part where God says, I spoke to you out of heaven. And this, you know, coming right after the Ten Commandments, we get a couple commandments about how to. How to connect with God, how to build an altar, don't build idols, build an altar. And then in the very next chapter, we get a bunch of laws about slaves, which is pretty ironic considering where they just came from. Right. Because what was the. These. These recently freed slaves, the. The, you know, without getting too far into it, the system that God sets up for. Yes, slavery, quote unquote. I'll say very much, quote unquote. Because it's very different from like, you know, a lot of times I think when we talk about slavery, our default is, you know, American slavery, the kind of slavery we did, which is not this. This is primarily driven by when people are in debt, when you have a bad crop and you have, you know, bills to pay that you can't pay, you would sell yourself into slavery or someone into slavery, and you would basically, you know, kind of like go get a job, work for someone else on their land until you could pay off your debts.
- [51:22]
El Grover Fricks
I love that you pointed out before the episode started, we were chatting over the bullet points and you brought up the slavery issue. And I feel like the biblical context that you pulled out can be so helpful. Because when we hear the word slavery, we tend to import our own historical and sociological understandings. And all this stuff, which doesn't always line up. But you said, which I thought was brilliant, that slavery was when your labor is divorced, divorced from the land, divorced from the means of production. So there's lots of different words that come up in the Hebrew. There's sahar, which is like a paid employee. And that's a little bit different. Avod, you can translate a slave or servant. So there's lots of different tiers and everything. But the idea is it's not your land. You have been divorced from your land, your means of production in some way. And now you're giving your labor to somebody else. Else in their capital.
- [52:23]
Josh Boss
Yes. Because in the biblical model, everyone has A portion of land. Every family has their own. Their own means of making life. And in fact, there are laws.
- [52:35]
El Grover Fricks
Personian.
- [52:37]
Josh Boss
Well, I don't know. The. The point being that the conversation about debt and being in debt and having someone who owes debt to you is a conversation about the. The very substance that makes up slavery, of needing to sell oneself into slavery. And so when Jesus says. Talks about, you know, forgiving debtors, as we have had our debts forgiven, we can read that as him talking about freedom from slavery. You free other people from slavery whenever it's in your power to do so. Let us set people free. And when we're talking about debt and debtors, like, this is not inherently a sin thing.
- [53:24]
El Grover Fricks
Right?
- [53:25]
Josh Boss
Right. Like, this is not, oh, someone did something wrong. And I'm gonna say, hey, don't worry about it.
- [53:30]
El Grover Fricks
I'll.
- [53:30]
Josh Boss
I'll overlook it. We're talking about, you know, someone owes you money. We're not talking about, you know, any compulsion to forgive someone for sinning. You. We were talking about setting someone free from that financial burden on its own for apparently no reason. For the same reason that God decided to set a people free from slavery.
- [53:52]
El Grover Fricks
Right.
- [53:52]
Josh Boss
And this, to me, really starts popping things off because then we have this whole evocation of. Is it evocation or invocation? Any. Either way. Either way, Jesus is invoking the Exodus not just as an important story, but because the center of what we are called to do. Especially. Especially when we think about how Marty talks about, like this being the radical center of the story and this being what we are called to do, that is like what God does. That is exactly parallel to what God does and is also a duplication of what God does, which goes back to us being the firstborn and doing what our Father has done. We are here to liberate people. We are here to set people free. And if it's in your power to set someone free, set them free the same way God set you free.
- [54:43]
El Grover Fricks
It's how Jesus opens up his ministry, right. As he reads that Isaiah passage. Spirit of the Lord is upon me to do what?
- [54:50]
Josh Boss
Yes, set the slaves free to free.
- [54:54]
El Grover Fricks
The bound is one of the. One of the items on his to do list, which is why John the Baptist is so upset with him. Hey, bro, I found. What about me? You Messiah or not? And so who are the John Baptist in our lives that hopefully we're not physically holding in a basement somewhere, but the people with our unforgiveness or bitterness or resentment that we are. That we are holding captive in some way? Yes, we're saying, well, maybe when the Shabbaton comes around, right, when jubilee year shows up, at that point, maybe I'll be ready to let it go. Or maybe a kinsman redeemer will come along and tell me, oh, well, that family member wasn't really meaning that. They were really meaning this, right? And then. And, okay, fine, then I'll be free. Nope.
- [55:42]
Josh Boss
And I think that's. That's important. Like, I don't. I'm not trying to say this should only be thought of in terms of, you know, financial bondage that people are in, but I think we need to have a more expansive view of what we think about. We think about freedom, liberation. Salvation is a word that fits in with those in the biblical context and to not just see the maybe capital S. Salvation as the only kind of salvation God cares about, but that setting people free is telling God's story. And that can be in a small of a way of letting someone, you know, being late to a meeting and saying, hey, don't worry about it. Don't apologize. You're fine. I'm here for you. Liberation is the business we are about setting people free. And that can be in all sorts of ways. We. We should get creative in trying to find new ways to do that. And I think that is what Jesus is exhorting us to do, especially when we're in that tension of like, oh, I want to be close to God, but I see all these things in the world that are just so much bigger than me. It can feel like, you know, we don't have anything and not even a place to start. And where do we start? We start with the daily bread. What has God given us to fill our cup, to give us life? And then we can just turn around and look around and say, hey, who can I set free?
- [57:01]
El Grover Fricks
Amazing.
- [57:02]
Josh Boss
Even if it's just for a second.
- [57:03]
El Grover Fricks
I love that.
- [57:04]
Josh Boss
And then where does Jesus go from here? Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Now this one. I have a feeling someone might get this. Can you think of something in the Exodus story where specifically someone or some group is not led someplace don't lead us here.
- [57:26]
El Grover Fricks
We're talking about Mara. But that's not Exodus.
- [57:29]
Josh Boss
Yeah. No. All right.
- [57:31]
El Grover Fricks
No. Okay, what are you thinking?
- [57:32]
Josh Boss
Let's turn to Exodus, chapter 13, verse 17. Brent, if you're counting, this is the second 17 verse that we're reading.
- [57:42]
Brent Billings
Yes. And the second from 13.
- [57:45]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [57:46]
Brent Billings
We can find patterns in anything, Josh.
- [57:48]
Josh Boss
If we put our minds to it using numbers that we made up to go on Top of the text.
- [57:54]
Brent Billings
When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, if they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.
- [58:06]
Josh Boss
Well, well, well, well. Don't lead us into temptation. Don't lead us into situations that are going to be too much for us and make us want to go back. Don't lead us into a battle that's too hard for us to face. That, to me, feels like it lines up pretty well. And I think that especially this kind of feels like a little bit of a. A little bit of a letdown. It's not quite as, like, punchy and like, yeah, we're supposed to go liberate people. But I think what this does is it answers the voice in our head that raises its hand. As soon as we say, let's start going out and liberating people, it goes, excuse me, but what if it's too much and I can't do it and I get in trouble or it's too hard or any of those things. All those, all those doubts, all those questions, all those things that tangle us up from the jump. And it just says, just trust God to not lead you to the place that's going to, you know, send you tumbling back down the hill. Just give that to God. Please don't lead us there.
- [59:13]
El Grover Fricks
Because that verse doesn't say he's not going to lead them to the push team because then they will surely die. Because they'll turn around.
- [59:22]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [59:22]
El Grover Fricks
And if one of the grand themes in this prayer has to do with us walking out the commandments, it's like turning around and going back is one of the things that gets in the way of that more than, like, actual death.
- [59:36]
Josh Boss
Yes.
- [59:37]
El Grover Fricks
Most of the time, for most of us, thankfully, death is not on the line.
- [59:41]
Josh Boss
Yes. But it is often the fear of that death that brings that up. Every time they're like, oh, we don't have enough food or water, which, you know, pretty valid complaint if you ask me. But they start grumbling about that and then they're like, oh, let's just go back to Egypt. It's like, oh, yeah. If they had also run into a bunch of, you know, armed people like that might have come up a lot earlier. And. And especially if it's a short route, might be even easier to turn around. If it's like, oh, we're only five minutes away. We've all. We're only 20 minutes into our journey, let's just turn around. Now, whereas, you know, you've been out for a while, you've already been to the mountain, and you've had some time to really, really absorb our. Our identity that I think is. Is important for us to be aware of as we go about this. Like it's. God isn't just trying to give us the shortest A to B route. There is something about the circuitous, sometimes inefficiencies of spiritual life that are part of God forming our identity and letting everything else that we've just prayed about in this prayer sink in is that we don't want to run into every temptation. We don't want to conquer every spiritual thing, because if we just try and, you know, set a personal record every time we lift, we're going to injure ourselves, you know, and be out for the rest of the season. And I'm probably mixing way too many sports metaphors.
- [61:03]
El Grover Fricks
No, I got that one.
- [61:04]
Josh Boss
Sorry. So this is all couching us in this place where we are, in a sense, set free to go set other people free without worrying about, you know, will we have enough? Will we be facing enemies that are too big. This is trusting God with all of those things, all those fears that tend to make us shrink back and say. Say, I don't know if I can actually do that. And instead reminding us, no, your whole identity is that God is your parent. And that took the form of him setting you free and you're carrying on that business. And because you were set free, you need to go set other people free. Which I think especially for Jesus, especially knowing how much he quotes Deuteronomy. When we think about. When we think about the seven. Seven and why I chose to still name this the seven, even though I'm not necessarily pulling out seven specific things. It's like, you know, when. With Deuteronomy, the book of Torah, Jesus seems to be most familiar with or go to the most. When it talks about Sabbath, it talks about. It doesn't just say, you know, do the Sabbath the same. It adds some stuff it says specifically to. Actually, I should have pulled that up. I know where it is. It's Deuteronomy 5. I'll read this one, Brent. Don't you worry about it. I've got something else in Deuteronomy for you to read. It does. It has the same opening. You know, you rest. You, your son, your daughter, your brother, your. Your animals, your servants, any stranger who's with you, everyone rests. But then it adds this so that your male slave and your female slave may rest with with you. Interesting that it emphasizes that. And then it gives a totally different rationale of why we rest. It says, because you need to remember that you were a slave and that God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That's why God commanded you to. And this is something I talked about in my last Shabbat series. This is one of the, I think two times where it says, this is where you do Shabbat. This is where you asa Shabbat, which is a making word that is used in creation. It's very strange, right? Why are we being told to do Shabbat? We're supposed to not do on Shabbat. But this is the heart. This is what Shabbat must do. This is why I think Jesus says, oh, healing someone, freeing someone from a disease. What's more Shabbat than that? Shabbat's liberation. Shabbat is telling a slave, hey, you don't have to work. You're not a slave today. Maybe the other days of the week, the kingdom of the world has you down. But today I'm going to set you free from this. You can rest today. And this brings me back to the bigger seven. And Brent, I'd like you to read this if you can mosey on over to Deuteronomy 15. And this I want us to. To hear and see if we remember anything from the Exodus in this. So, yeah, Brent, why don't you read the beginning of this, this chapter of Deuteronomy, chapter 15, and we'll focus in on a few verses, but let's just hear the whole context.
- [64:15]
Brent Billings
At the end of every seven years, you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done. Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you. You, however, there need be no poor people among you. For in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance. He will richly bless you if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations, but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations, but none will rule over you. If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the lands, the Lord your God is giving you. Do not be hard hearted or tight fisted toward them, rather be open handed and freely lend them whatever they need.
- [65:18]
Josh Boss
Now there's a couple things in there that I want us to remember because there's some caveats in there about your fellow Israelites versus strangers. But you know, Jesus had something to say about that because the word for that's translated as your fellow Israelite is the same as the word that is later referenced when Jesus talks about who our neighbor is. So I think it's important for us to recognize, especially since we would be on the receiving end of the negative aspect of some of these laws that Jesus came and said, yeah, but what if we made everyone your fellow neighbor? Setting that part aside, what's really interesting is in verse seven when it talks about if there is someone who is poor among you after just saying, hey, there doesn't need to be anyone poor among you. If there is a poor person among you, you shall not. But the phrase there is you shall not harden your heart. Which, what does that remind us of?
- [66:25]
El Grover Fricks
Paro.
- [66:26]
Josh Boss
Paro.
- [66:27]
El Grover Fricks
I finally got one.
- [66:31]
Josh Boss
And we remember all the way back to toward Marty's breakdown, which is based on Foreman's breakdown of the. The different words used to talk about hardening of the heart. There's one which means to make it heavy to. Sometimes you just talk about being, being stupid or just kind of set in your ways. This is not that word. This is the other one. This is like strengthening one to be more vehemently set in your ways to double down. And when we think about the year of the Lord's release, the Sabbath, of the yearly Sabbath, the Shmita, God canceling everything, forgive others their debts as the Lord has forgiven you, forgiven you. There is a way in which that we can feel very safely ensconced in God's kingdom where maybe we have taken some liberties and not realize that we've really just followed the world's will, the kingdoms all around us, those things are really easily mixed up. And that's why God has to say in a couple short verses, yeah, let every. Let all these debts go. There doesn't need to be any poor, but there should be enough to go around. And yet there will be a poor person among you. And when that does happen, when you know even with everything I've given you, it's still not going to be perfect. You're not going to fulfill it perfectly. And when you see that imperfection, you have an opportunity to be like Pharaoh and to harden your hearts and to be on the Other side of the question of which kingdom you serve. To me this is really important to hear in, in contrast with how, and I don't even really have anything to add to the way you translated it and, and painted it last time with this beautiful remez to the blessing of David where you know, we can feel a certain way about our resources, whether those are actual physical, tangible, fungible resources or whether they are more ephemeral. Our time, our attention, our emotional capacity, our willingness to believe other people and have empathy for them. It is easy to become tight fisted and to become like aparo unto ourselves in our own little corner. And how important to remember with a soaring doxology that everything we have, all the, all the goodness that David had piled up, that wasn't, it wasn't even for himself, it was for a future generation, for a temple. He would never see that reminder that everything we have, everything that goes beyond our daily bread, this is to build the temple, this is to liberate others. And that can take a lot of forms. But if it's not doing that, then it isn't part that we are withholding that kingdom, power and glory from God. And especially as a, again as a, as a daily reminder on these things to remember like oh yeah, I'm not just me sitting here in you know, 20, 25 or whatever future year you're listening to this in where you know, I, I've got enough to eat and I'm comfortable, comfortable and you know, I wish the world were different. But hey, what are you going to do? It's very easy, you know, whatever your ideology is, however the, the historical moment finds you when you're listening to this. It's very easy to, to not do anything with that and to just sit in that malaise. And I personally find that returning to the, the exodus, this, returning to the mission of liberation, that, that this idea of salvation is not just something that happened a long time ago on a cross, but that it is something we get to actively recreate and make alive and resurrect in people's lives in every way from, you know, as Jesus put it, from something as simple as a little bit of hospitality and a little bit of bread to something as big as releasing someone from their desk debts. Something that has no, no moral quandary. Person doesn't have to deserve it, doesn't have to be a good person, doesn't have to be contingent on them being a believer. In fact, might be important to do that to people who aren't believers, people who don't hold the same values as you people who, you know, you might feel a little bit justified in keeping them locked up, in debt, holding one over on them. Maybe that's exactly the thing that Jesus was just is asking us every day, every day, three times a day to pray in this way to convict that and say, no, I'm here to set people free. I don't get to decide who because it's everyone. I don't get to decide who my neighbor is because I'm called to make everyone my neighbor with my actions.
- [71:38]
El Grover Fricks
It takes me back to a couple episodes ago. Brenton and I were talking about the wages conversation in the prosperity gospel and how do we, like, work along these lines without falling into a pit? And of course, this is a huge component of that, like, you already have enough and God has seen fit to deliver you more than you need. Amazing. That's not just to buy your, you know, I don't know, whatever people want to buy. It's to liberate others with like. And in that way, a poverty mindset about, no, no, no. I only need just enough to get through. And that's, that's all God knows that I need. Ends up also being selfish because it's like, well, sure, yeah, that's all you need. That's great, like your asceticism comment, but what about all the people around you?
- [72:36]
Josh Boss
Yeah, absolutely.
- [72:37]
El Grover Fricks
And in the Torah ethic of poverty, the stuff that you have, a portion of, it belongs to the poor. It's not that the corners of your fields are yours, right? And they're for you. And then you need to dispense them to the poor, and it's not even. So it goes to the argument in Leviticus that it's all gods, although of course that is made somewhere else. It's that your corners belong to the poor, and if you steal it from them, you better, you better fear God because he's going to step into that gap and champion the people who you were forgetting. So putting liberation as our identity, what we're moving out of, what we're centered in, and then that we get the privilege to partner with the God in that work in the world around us. And that's a huge part of putting the world back together. It's a lovely reminder.
- [73:34]
Josh Boss
Absolutely, absolutely love that. What about you, Brent? You got any thoughts?
- [73:39]
Brent Billings
I just need to be liberated from Zoom and wi fi, apparently.
- [73:44]
Josh Boss
Yes. This has been maybe one of the most unwieldy zoom sessions I've ever had with you, Brent. My goodness.
- [73:53]
Brent Billings
Technologically fraught. Yes. Attributing all sorts of evil and other things to technology today.
- [74:01]
Josh Boss
Apparently Satan doesn't want you to hear this episode. I guess not trying to shut us down.
- [74:07]
Brent Billings
We'll put that in the little promo clip for this episode. Yeah, hopefully I have. By the time you're hearing us say these words, I have edited this episode into something coherent. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's been good though. This prayer has depths and depths and depths to it and so. So it's great to look at it from this exodotic exodusic angle. Whatever. Yeah, I don't know how you. I don't know how you do that in English. What's the Hebrew? How would you do that in Hebrew?
- [74:42]
El Grover Fricks
Al Exodus is not the name of the scroll.
- [74:46]
Brent Billings
Well, yeah, if you were to take the name of the scroll in Hebrew and turn it into like a.
- [74:51]
El Grover Fricks
Whatever, shamatic.
- [74:53]
Brent Billings
There you go. That sounds great. Okay, so that's this episode and that is the talmudic Matthew portion of session nine. Woohoo. So we are moving on to Josh's episode on Kohelet. Oh man, I did series series, not episode series.
- [75:13]
Josh Boss
Didn't even think about this. But Elle, you and I are also going to be together on the first episode for that. So everyone's just going to get a big run of Josh and Elle power duo.
- [75:25]
El Grover Fricks
I'm happy we can bridge one another's work here. It's been a joy. Yes. We will not be doing Talmadict Matthew next season. We're going to take a break for at least one season.
- [75:38]
Brent Billings
So.
- [75:39]
Josh Boss
Shmita. Gotta let the land rest.
- [75:42]
El Grover Fricks
Yeah, so we can. Let's let Matthew, poor, poor old scroll, have his season of stillness before we return to him at a later date. But thanks for hanging on everybody. It's been a good time. At least in this underground recording studio it is beautiful.
- [76:05]
Brent Billings
Well, listeners can go to bamonocipeship.com, check the news page to see what we're up to. Maybe you're caught up. Maybe you're listening to. To this as we release it. Maybe you're listening to it years later. But whenever you are, check out that news page. Figure out where we're going to be, what we're up to, what's new, what's happening. You can use the contact page on the website to get in touch with us. That will do it for this episode. So thank you for joining us on the Bama podcast. We'll talk to you again soon.