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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign. This is the Bayw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are following Cohellett and Josh Bossay into many parties to see if we can find any meaning in joy.
- [00:18]
Brent Billings
And as we know here on the Baymouth podcast, the party is pretty important.
- [00:22]
Josh Bossay
It is. We're big fans of the party here.
- [00:24]
Brent Billings
But before we get into that, we need to do our obligatory work warning. I'm going to be doing this every single episode. And I'm. I'm saying this so that even if I forget to do it, I'm gonna force spread Billings to edit one in or something, because we really need to remember this is. This book is very, I think, tricky for a particularly a western audience because if you will remember from the previous episode, this is a philosophical work. But unlike a hundred percent of our style of philosophy here in western culture, it is not abstract. It is rooted in the material world, both in its metaphors and how it reasons things out. And not only that, this book is possibly the only biblical book that has a individualistic lens. Qohelet is a radical individualist. Now, that does not mean that she has the exact same culture of individualism that we're brought up in. But it's easy for us sometimes to not be aware of how much we might project because of that overlap with her lens and ours. But what this does mean is that even though Kohelet talks about God, Koela talks about Israel, Qohela does not talk about partnership. A story, a divine plan, an arc, none of that. It is all, as Kohele will say, under the sun is rooted in human experience. And so if we were going to be really anachronistic and project and use some modern terms very loosely, we could say that Qohelet is a materialist and humanist work and what this will really mean. The most important thing that we have to remember is that the actual way that Kohelet is reasoning is not by just pointing, putting out a point. Here's what I think. Here's why I think that that's true. Kohelet is using experiential reasoning, very concrete metaphors. I went to this place, I saw this, and it's those metaphors, those images and the tension between them that leads us along her thought process.
- [02:36]
Josh Bossay
So I think maybe one of the dangers, if I were to put what you just warned us about in my own words, potentially, tell me if I'm wrong, Josh, is that we can hear the language and the discussion of Kohelet and this book of ecclesiastes and think to ourselves, oh, like, I'm home. This is very Western. This is very me. But even the fact that it's using things that feel that way, it's rooted in and coming from a different place with a different assumption and pointed in a different direction than what we're used to. So we would do ourselves a disservice to relate to them like we normally would.
- [03:10]
Brent Billings
Absolutely. And. And that's where, you know, Ecclesiastes is a controversial book. It was almost not in the canon. Even. El told me. I didn't know this, but apparently in the Mishnah, there's a whole debate over whether holding a scroll of Ecclesiastes makes you dirty, makes you unclean.
- [03:29]
Josh Bossay
Right? I've heard that before. Yep.
- [03:31]
Brent Billings
And I think that this is where, you know, like you said, Marty, we'd be doing ourselves a disservice if we just heard it through our own ears. And when Kohella pops off and says things like, oh, everything's just meaningless. You know, if we just take that in a straightforward, logical, Western way and say, ah, this is Kohelet's opinion and conclusion, we'd be way off the mark. So with that, if we're willing to kind of, you know, kind of crane our neck and look at this with a little bit different perspective and spend some time, we're gonna find some really, really juicy stuff, because, man, this. This book goes places. But speaking of which, let's go someplace with this book. Brent, will you give us just the first two verses?
- [04:19]
Marty Solomon
I said to myself, come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good. But that also proved to be meaningless. Laughter, I said, is madness. And what does pleasure accomplish?
- [04:32]
Brent Billings
So man starting out with a bang in this new direction. The last episode had us leaving off with Kohelet, starting out on this journey to not just accumulate wisdom, but to understand wisdom itself. And we immediately jump into joy. Let's see what's up with joy. Let's see what's good in life. And pretty immediately comes to a pretty rough, rough conclusion. It's madness. It's ecstasy. It's beyond our ability to wrap our minds around. But also, like, what does it do? Is literally the phrase there in the Hebrew speaking of joy. Specifically, what does joy do? What's the point of joy? Now, this does not sound like a person who is very fun to have it apart. I think we can all agree on that.
- [05:33]
Josh Bossay
Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna say it sounds like me. It sounds like me at your party. Absolutely.
- [05:40]
Marty Solomon
What does this Guacamole accomplish.
- [05:43]
Josh Bossay
Why are we playing games? There's no end to these. There's no point to these games. Stop it.
- [05:49]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And also, I kind of. I'm not sure if this holds up as true in all cases, but, like, I. I kind of feel like whenever Kohelet runs into something and declares that it's heavy, it's like she's saying, like, oh, like, there's no point in looking into this further. Like, all right, experiment failed. We gotta try something else. This is not the right way of doing this. So we. Our first experiment with partying fails, but thankfully, Kohele is very determined. So let's pick up in verse 3 and see. Let's go 3 all the way to verse 11.
- [06:24]
Marty Solomon
I tried cheering myself with wine and embracing folly, my mind still guiding me with wisdom. I wanted to see what was good for people to do under the heavens during the few days of their lives. I undertook great projects. I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees. I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. I amassed silver and gold for myself and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers and a harem as well. The delights of a man's heart. I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this, my wisdom stayed with me. I denied myself nothing my eyes desired. I refused my heart no pleasure. My heart took delight in all my labor. And this was the reward for all my toil. Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless. A chasing after the wind. Nothing was gained under the sun.
- [07:39]
Brent Billings
Well, well, well. Kind of went from one extreme to the other. There. We went from not seeing the point of the party to, like, a party that kind of broke out into a bunch of building projects. Like, that's not usually what I think of when I think of partying. What the heck is going on here?
- [08:01]
Josh Bossay
She was just double checking. She was going from, like. I didn't think laughter was good, but I had to make sure.
- [08:06]
Brent Billings
Indeed. And I. I also love that. Yeah, her second attempt, she's like, all right, let's get some. Let's get some wine in the mix. Let's get some. Maybe I'm a little too uptight. And I think, literally, the phrase there in the Hebrew is wine to Draw her flesh while letting wisdom lead her so that she could, like, seize this. The. The folly that she's, like, trying to. To get a hold of. Like, what is this, like, people just being dumb and having fun? Like, how do they do that? How do you just stop thinking? Which I'm sure a lot of people out there can resonate with. But again, the. The point of that was back in verse three is to see, like, what's good for people, what is a good thing for a human to do under heaven for the few years of their lives. Again, coming back to this theme of time that we already explored in the last episode, but we'll kind of be the center of every episode in one way or another. So how do we spend our time? What's actually a good thing to spend your time with? And I love this because, you know, a lot of times, you know, like you were saying earlier, Marty, you know, we kind of. Especially those of us, you know, we could be a little in our heads to be hard to see the point of what other people do when they're enjoying their time. And I feel like Kohelet has a pretty open mind here and is genuinely saying, like, hey, is there anything to this? Is this actually, like, good for people just going after, like, what. What seems best to you? What. What you desire, what brings you joy. Is. Is chasing that, like, just a good way to spend your life? And that is kind of what kicks off the. The stream of building projects. The. The beginning in verse four with, I enlarged my works. And what's interesting. Did you. Did anyone, either of you notice anything. Anything stick out to you in. In that, like, kind of stream of large works that Kohelet set to.
- [10:15]
Marty Solomon
There doesn't seem to be anything done with any of it. I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. I made gardens and planted all kinds of fruit trees. I made reservoirs to water groves. I bought slaves, I owned flocks, I amassed silver and gold. But it never says anything about, like, doing anything with any of that. Never harvesting, never whatever.
- [10:41]
Brent Billings
Yeah. It doesn't say, like, oh, I went for some nice water. I slept in a hammock in that garden.
- [10:45]
Josh Bossay
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:46]
Brent Billings
Or.
- [10:47]
Josh Bossay
Or even there's like a prophetic refrain. Refrain that where you planted, you built houses and lived in them.
- [10:53]
Brent Billings
You.
- [10:53]
Josh Bossay
You planted vineyards and ate their fruit. You. You know, there's. There's. There's like, the. There's the reciprocal. And yet that's. That's missing here. I can see what you're. Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:04]
Brent Billings
Yes. And that will be. That will become A major theme the closer we get to the center of this book. But yeah, it is interesting that that is not present and there's a lot of amassing, there's a lot of building, but not a lot of doing stuff with it. That's very keen observation. Was there anything about the specific works that Qohelet undertook that sparked anything?
- [11:28]
Josh Bossay
Well, they're very natural, like creation oriented. I'm thinking of even your last conversation in the last episode. It made me think of Genesis language. It made me think of. I couldn't tell if I like, is this the Garden of Eden? Is this Genesis 1? Where is this landing? That's very. It's very creationy. It's very natural. It's. It's water, it's vineyards and gardens, it's trees and whatever. That's. That's what I kept thinking.
- [11:56]
Brent Billings
Yeah. In fact, in verse five, maybe it'll. It'll pop out a lot more. In the Hebrew, Kohelet makes gardens, and then the word for parks there, it's par Dasim.
- [12:10]
Josh Bossay
Oh, cool. Like the. The paradise idea.
- [12:14]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And it's a partisan filled with every kind of tree that bears fruit.
- [12:20]
Josh Bossay
Hey.
- [12:21]
Brent Billings
And we have, interestingly, the word for ponds of water is barakot. It's the same root as the word for blessing, which also kind of makes sense, I guess, with irrigation. You know, these are ponds that are blessing trees. So we have all these trees sprouting. And then what's interesting is. Yeah, we have. We. Well, let's. Let's even roll it back. What. What's the very first thing that Kohelet makes?
- [12:49]
Josh Bossay
Was it the house?
- [12:49]
Brent Billings
It's a house. It's a house, then a vineyard, then the garden and the trees and irrigating and growing the trees. And to me, this is all. Yes, very Genesis 2, very. You know, God built a house for us. And not only that, after we have all this irrigation imagery, then we get a lot of people centered imagery. I got servants or slaves and then sons of the house. Then there were people born in the house. I wonder if this is very intentionally following, like a Genesis 2 image of, you know, I created this house. I created this world filled with all these, you know, natural wonders and beauties. And then I put people in there, and then there were people born in the house, and then they had flocks and herds. And I. I was looking to see, you know, I tried to find better connections to see if there was like, maybe more explicit connection to the patriarchs or something. Maybe it's like, you know, is Qohelet kind of sketching out the. The beginning of God's story here. I didn't find anything super, super solid on that. But what is interesting is that after talks about gathering silver and gold and treasures, in my mind, I'm like, is that talking about the Mishkan? Like, now we're gathering things to. Anyway, didn't get super far down that road. Maybe you at home will find something. But then we get to this final bit about the plot. Pleasures of humanity and a harem. It said in your translation, Brent, which.
- [14:34]
Marty Solomon
Which has the footnote. The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.
- [14:39]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes, of course it is. Yeah. And also, you know, speaking in the. The voice of Solomon, like, that's also not a crazy thing to say at all. Like, that is literally very true of Solomon.
- [14:52]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. This little chunk is not doing anyone any favors if they're trying to argue, but that this is not a book of Solomon.
- [14:59]
Brent Billings
It's true. Alth. Know it is. Well, you know it. The one thing I want to point out is that when it talks about the singers, the word there is not. You know, my translation here, it says, I provided for myself male and female singers. I don't know what yours says, Brent.
- [15:18]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I acquired male and female singers.
- [15:21]
Brent Billings
Now, the word there is actually asa, I made for myself male and female singers.
- [15:28]
Josh Bossay
Sure. Right.
- [15:29]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Interesting. And then also, this is again, kind of a side note, but that word for concubines, it is, if I remember right, it's shidot. And I know that that word. You know, Elle talked about how there's a lot of, like, Persian loan words in this. I might be wrong, but I think that word can also be connected to a word for, like, a lord. And similarly, the word for a singer, Sharim, is similar to Sarim, which is a word for a prince. So we could also see, you know, if we're taking this as a parallel, on God's creation, we have, you know, the house, the vineyard, the natural world. Now we have servants, people to tend to it. And then we have people, you know, born into it and dedicated to it. Flocks and herds, shepherding creation, gathering silver and gold. And now we have singers, people giving praise, people leading, like, kind of. Kind of going up this, I guess, human hierarchy of people in relationship to their creator. Now, regardless of how literally you want to take that, I. I don't think Kohelet is calling yourself God by any stretch, but I think that what this is supposed to evoke is that, like Genesis 2, creation image of God, it talks about When God created the trees, for example, God created them to be desirable to us, to be something that gives pleasure. It tastes good when you eat it. And there is something in this that is not just about fulfilling base desires, which I think is important to note. You know, this isn't. We don't all have like a base desire to create a garden. This is a desire to like, engage with the world, to. To make something that is also connected to our desires, but it's not. You know, I think that is kind of in one of those categories of desire that we don't have that, like, gut, knee jerk reaction, like, oh, that's a sinful desire. You know, it's like that, that there's nothing inherently wrong with that. And I think that that's really what. What Kohelet's getting at here, Coelut, is not just like, let's party as hard as possible and just get me the, the 80 most illegal drugs and I'm going to do them all in a row and, you know, then just see what the heck happens next. Like, this is not just pure hedonism. This is a thoughtful exploration of just approaching life from the perspective of what if I just did what seemed like the best, most interesting, most joyful thing in front of me.
- [18:17]
Josh Bossay
There is a twice, at least twice, if not other sentences and language as well, that the author says wisdom was guiding me, like, very intentionally making the point. This was not just pursuing hedonistic pleasure. I went to pursue joy and pleasure with wisdom being my, you know, I am looking for something. I am inquisitive, I am curious. I am. So it's not just indulgent, but there's a point behind it. Yeah.
- [18:46]
Brent Billings
And, and that's where to me, the parallel between this and God creating the world becomes very interesting. And this is where I love the. The question this, that you. Or the observation you brought up, Brent, of like, it seems like, you know, Qohelet doesn't really do anything with all this stuff that she makes. It doesn't talk about her enjoying it, which would be interesting from the God angle of like, God made these things for us. But it kind of flips that whole question around and is kind of like, you know, why did God make all this stuff? Why did God create this whole complex world? Was it just for love of the game? Does God just enjoy creating things? And if so, like, is. Is that where we get the joy from it? Like, what's, what's behind that?
- [19:37]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. Then the NIV collapses it in the translation, but the net Points out that. That phrase for myself, which the NIV gives you. The first time I built houses for myself. But that for myself phrase appears seven times over the five. Five verses there.
- [19:53]
Brent Billings
Oh, very interesting.
- [19:56]
Josh Bossay
Seven times. Oh, that's silly.
- [19:58]
Marty Solomon
Did I say seven? Eight times? Sorry.
- [20:00]
Josh Bossay
Oh, eight times. Okay.
- [20:01]
Brent Billings
Well, then it can't be anything, certainly. Well, we did. We did get. In the last chapter. There were the seven hevels.
- [20:08]
Josh Bossay
Okay. Yeah.
- [20:09]
Brent Billings
If you add up the hevel with the heavil as one and two, it gets to.
- [20:13]
Josh Bossay
Got it.
- [20:13]
Brent Billings
Seven. And here we have eight for myself. And in fact, man, that's that. I should have thought of this. I talked a little bit about Lechleka last time.
- [20:23]
Josh Bossay
Yep.
- [20:24]
Brent Billings
And how, like, it. It's through Kohelet, like, not just saying, like, oh, I'm gonna pile up all this wisdom and just be the wisest person to ever be wise. Like, she has this turn where she's like, I actually want to understand wisdom more deeply. Like, almost kind of an intimacy with it, rather than just a stacking it up. And even though, you know, wisdom brings greater anxiety and grief and sorrow and all those things, it's worth it, because Colette is. Is doing this not out of obligation, but out of a genuine desire for intimacy. And here I think we. We are seeing Kohelet kind of pressing into that. Like, what is. What is that actual desire? Like, even if it's guided by wisdom, even if it's, you know, within these safe boundaries, like, what is the end of that? And we see the. The conclusion there of, like, genuinely, her heart found joy. Oh, yeah. Verse 10 right there. And this I'm reading in a. This is nasb. I didn't refuse anything that my eye desired. I didn't restrain my heart from any pleasure. My heart was pleased. And I believe that word there is. Yeah, it's the word for joy. Sameach Simcha. I was pleased in all the struggle, the actual struggle of it. Not the enjoyment of it after the fact, but the struggle of figuring out how to make this garden work, the struggle of building the house of, you know, all the trouble that goes into, the effort that goes into building all these things that in and of itself brought joy. And I think, you know, a lot of times in our culture, like, that's treated as, like, the highest thing to actually love the work that you do. Like, oh, you know, love what you do, and you'll never work a day in your life. Right. That's the saying. And we see Kohele saying, like, yeah, I experienced that. I actually Enjoyed the process. I wasn't just trying to, you know, hit my, you know, serotonin button as many times as possible. Like, I was engaged and I enjoyed it. My heart was actually pleased. And that was my entire reward, my entire portion. And this goes back to that idea of Utrone. That's why in the next verse, even though I enjoyed doing it, it was a fun project, I, I, I enjoyed myself. There's nothing extra. There's nothing that transcends and answers that question of what's really, what's the meaning of life.
- [23:08]
Josh Bossay
When you have talked about this word, Josh Yitron, and the way you've explained it with UNL in the last episode, the thing that just keeps coming to mind, especially when you use the language you used to talk about that is Jesus as a wisdom teacher, where he keeps coming. What is the thing that he says? You can do this, but that will be your only reward if you give to the poor. Like, don't announce it, because if you do, that will be your own. There will be no extra. There will be nothing else that runs over. There will be nothing else that remains when you fast. Like, if you want to make a big deal about it and make a big show. But that's fine. But there will be no extra reward. That's why Jesus is the ultimate wisdom teacher of. This is what Kohelet taught us. Like, you can either do this for some reason, and that's going to be later on in the book for some, some that's going to be later on in your series for some other reason. But if you do this just for the, the base realness of the experience itself, that's it. Like, that's the reward. That's, that's what you get.
- [24:12]
Brent Billings
Absolutely. And Kohelet is walking us through that exact same point, you know, treasures on Earth. And that is, yeah, great. The, the domain that Coilette has limited herself to in terms of, you know, what she is exploring. This is all under the sun. And even under the sun, even herself sitting there, not thinking about treasures in heaven or the hereafter. Like, strictly speaking, in a materialist humanist, like, everything that exists is what's here on Earth. You know, even if we just limit it to that. What I found at the end of just doing all these things that were fulfilling was I sat back and I said, I still didn't, I still didn't do it. That still didn't give me anything extra. Nothing transcendent, nothing that went above that. It was just something that was genuinely engaging and fun and there's Nothing inherently wrong with that, but it is in terms of, like, looking for deeper meaning. It's futile and it's. And it's hurting wind. It's there. There isn't any. Anything that. That surmounts that. Brent, did you have any other thoughts on this before I ask you to read more text?
- [25:28]
Marty Solomon
Just that I love that picture of herding the wind. Yes, I'm enjoying that more and more each time I hear you say it.
- [25:34]
Brent Billings
Yeah, Kohelet is. Has some really potent images up her sleeve. All right, well, then let's go ahead and read verses 12 through 17.
- [25:44]
Marty Solomon
Then I turned my thoughts to consider wisdom and also madness and folly. What more can the king's successor do than what has already been done? I saw that wisdom is better than folly, just as light is better than darkness. The wise have eyes in their heads while the fool walks in the darkness. But I came to realize that the same fate overtakes them both. Then I said to myself, the fate of the fool will overtake me also. What then do I gain by being wise? I said to myself, this too is meaningless for the wise, like the fool, will not be long remembered. The days have already come when both have been forgotten. Like the fool, the wise too must die. So I hated life because the work that is done under the sun was grievous. To me, all of it is meaningless. A chasing after the wind, a hurting the wind.
- [26:40]
Brent Billings
Oh, like wind slipping through your fingers. Dang. So we have slipped down a totally different path, it seems like. So Qohelet has gone down this path of joy and seemingly hasn't maybe made like some kind of excoriating moral judgment, but kind of just found that there wasn't. That. That didn't answer the question. So then she turns and considers wisdom itself, turned to face wisdom and this ecstatic madness and folly. And so it again, kind of is taking on a new perspective. Right. We have to remember these concrete metaphors. When Kohelet just says, I turn to this. It's not like I then move to the next point. It's all right. I am taking on a fresh perspective and is focusing on these three. Wisdom, ecstasy, or madness and folly. And then poses this question and this. The verse order here is weird. I have seen some translations just straight up change the order of these verses, and particularly when we get to the end of it. But we initially have this statement, I saw wisdom surpassing foolishness as light surpasses darkness. We might say another little nod to the creation story.
- [28:14]
Josh Bossay
Sure.
- [28:15]
Brent Billings
And that there is a clear and Obvious benefit to wisdom over foolishness. Like, one is definitely better than the other. But then by the same token, just by shifting that perspective and widening out a little bit the benefit that wisdom has over folly, like, is it a real benefit? Is this. Or is it just, like, a marginal difference? Because guess what? We're all going to the same place. They both go into, you know, death at some point. And so if you go into it with your eyes open or your eyes closed, it doesn't really change what happens. So is this a real benefit or not?
- [29:00]
Josh Bossay
I feel like there's like a third. Like, on one hand, it feels like a separate stream. On the other hand, I feel like Kohelet is okay. She started by looking at just joy and being like, well, this isn't it. And it's like, okay, let me look again. And so she chases it with substance, finds that there is joy, but at the end, that is all there is, and then says, so let me turn around and faced it, and let me turn around and face this thing that I've seen and see what the. If that's all there is in the moment, now what is the lasting value? Oh, wait, there is none.
- [29:34]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [29:35]
Josh Bossay
Like, it feel. It actually feels. On one hand, I'm like, oh, this doesn't make. I feel like we're just bouncing all over the place. On the other hand, I'm like, oh, this actually makes a ton of sense. Kohelet's going, okay, this is meaningless. Okay, hold on. Let me look again. Okay, there's actually something here. Okay, there's really something here. But that's all there is. Let me step back. Oh, wait, there's what? There's nothing here at the end, like, when it's all said and done. So I really like what's happening as you're framing it like this. This. Look. Look again. Okay, now look. Look and judge. Kind of an idea.
- [30:08]
Brent Billings
And what's brilliant about this, too, is that this actually incorporates Brent's observation earlier, because the very first thing that Kohelet brings up when she's, you know, considering these three things is what is the person who's going to come after me? You know, speaking from this King Solomon perspective, who's going to be the one who comes after me? What are they going to do except what's already been done? Like, is this. Even if I, you know, set up the next generation? Like, can they really do more than just all the things I've already seen? Can. Can there be anything that I haven't cast my eye upon? And just seeing the futility of it.
- [30:48]
Josh Bossay
Right.
- [30:49]
Brent Billings
And. But that initial question that she doesn't quite fully land on, but will come to as we go on, like, we get to the end, and she talks about how, like, the remembrance won't go on even, which connects a lot to what we talked about in chapter one, the images of, you know, there. There are ancient societies that we don't even remember, and there will be a future society that won't even remember the society that'll be after us. Like, there is so much time that, you know, you can't even know what your immediate successor will do with what you've made. And I think if we bring that back to the question of kind of this Genesis 2 parallel and creating this whole world and this question of, like, wait, but what are we going to do with it? Like, that is the question, what is going to be done with it? You can make an Eden. What's going to happen in that Eden? Are they going to, you know, everyone's going to live in their peace and harmony, or is it going to get messed up? Or is it going to be misunderstood? Or, you know, are we. In 10 years, is. Is the Bama podcast going to mean something totally different than we ever intended it to? You know, like, those are real questions and things that we can't control any more than we can shepherd the wind. And putting in the center of it this question about wisdom, you know, kind of the. The personal heartbeat of Kohele. Like, she is the wisdom person, so that is her thing, and looking and saying, like, oh, you know, well, I know that for me personally, I'm going to end up just as dead as the fool next to me. So then. And I actually, I love how NASB translates it in verse 15. Why then have I been extremely wise? I love saying that about yourself. Why have I been extremely wise when I'm just going to die, too? And I think that this question of. Of legacy, of really the future, everything that they're going to rule over, has already been been made. And this philosophical quest that Qohelet's on, you know, intertwines with the. The reality of just the future moving on past us, with this image of kings being succeeded, which, again, you know, using my lens of Qohelet, evoking Solomon as a literary character, that is very, very relevant here, because what happens with Solomon, Solomon builds this great work. He builds this incredible temple, and what happens with his son is literal. The next person after him completely go off the rails. And even to the point where, like, that is what divides the kingdom, not the temple itself. But it's like, hey, I can build this temple. And the next generation, do they even care about it? Does it even matter? The temple ends up becoming, like, the wedge point, which causes the northern tribes to say, well, they control the temple. So rather than have to go back and submit to them, we'll create our own sites of worship. You could even argue that it, like, brings incredible disunity and destruction to the people of Israel. So what a great, like, literary reference in. In that sense to the story of Solomon. And. And, like, you don't know what your legacy is going to be at all.
- [34:21]
Josh Bossay
It's like those two characters encapsulate the argument. Like, you could say Solomon being referenced as the wisest man who ever lived. In a lot of ways, his son comes off as, like, the biggest fool who ever lived. And yet, at the end of the day, like, even when you consider their legacies not great. Yeah, don't really land. Both of them die. Everything moves on. Like, it's really great. Like you said, a great literary reference because of how it encapsulates the argument.
- [34:47]
Brent Billings
And that's where. When we get to verse 17, where. CO. It's like, so I just hate life because all this work is now. And sometimes it's translated as grievous or unhappy. It's literally the work which I had done under the sun was evil to me. And, like, I got to think if I'm, you know, if we, you know, did what Saul did with Samuel and, you know, resurrected Solomon and took him and said, oh, here. Here's what your son's doing. Like, I wonder how he would have felt about all the work he put into the temple and the other building projects he had. Like, wouldn't that have all seemed a little bit like, oh, I wish I had. I don't know. I wish I had raised my son differently. Who knows? Who knows what he might have thought? But nevertheless, like, all that work, you build this big, beautiful thing, and then the person after you, like, just totally, like, profanes it, like. Like, oh, that makes you wish you had never built such a beautiful thing to be destroyed. And I think that that shows, like, not that there's no point in doing anything. God shouldn't have created the world. It's all just a mess. But rather, like, if we're just focused on building incredible things, focused on me and my vision and what I think is best, and let me just pour all my intent, pour my whole life into these grand projects, these great works, Someone like that, that. That is not guaranteed. That is not something that is for sure. It. It could end up becoming something that is anathema to your very soul. And that, I think, kind of fleshes out what Kohelet means when she says, like, I did all these works, and it was just nothing. At the end of the day, it was still Havel. I enjoyed doing them. I love the works themselves.
- [36:38]
Josh Bossay
And yet it seems like Qohelet is like. But there is something that is guaranteed bad news. Death. Like, you can't guarantee. Legacy, you can't guarantee. But I can tell you the one thing we can guarantee. Everybody's gonna die.
- [36:51]
Brent Billings
Everyone's gonna die. Yes. That is a big fixture of Qohelet's reasoning. And. And it is like, you know, you can't argue with that. Death is guaranteed. And so, yeah, you know, this is. This is the. The tension. The Kohelet is just going to keep exploring. So if this is not a fun tension for you, you might want to skip this. Because this series, this book, just keeps layering on the tensions, and a lot of them are this, like, how do we actually face this tension? And that's why I love what you talked about earlier, Marty, of like, you know, these. Taking these different perspectives, like, okay, I'm going to try this again. I'm going to see how this works. But then I'm actually going to take this experience and not just say, oh, okay, I grew as a person, or, oh, okay, like, that'll help me be better next time. But she is taking this and then looking dead in the face, the big questions of, am I actually the fool? Does this even matter when I die? Like, all the biggest, most existential questions that we have, like, looking at those. But also. And I think this is crucial to us in the modern day because a lot of times when we talk about existential dread, it's something that gets us stuck. What I love about Kohelet is the kind of, like, what you said earlier, Marty, like, feels like it's all over the place, is she doesn't, like, get bogged down by that. Like, when she does get to something that she's like, oh, yeah, this is just meaningless. Like, she doesn't just say, okay, well, then, you know, I'm just gonna lie in bed all day. Like, there is a push to a. In one sense, a very deep level of. Of trust or at least commitment to this process, to this. This project exploration. And with that, let's finish up this. This book or this book. Let's finish up this chapter here. Let's go. Verse 18 through 26.
- [38:54]
Marty Solomon
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me, and who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish. Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless. So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun. For a person may labor with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then they must leave all they own to another who has not toiled for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. What do people get for all the toil and anxious striving with which they labor under the sun all their days? Their work is grief and painful even at night. Their minds do not rest. This too is meaningless. A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God. For without him who can eat or find enjoyment, to the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness. But to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God. This too is meaningless. A chasing after the wind.
- [40:10]
Brent Billings
Really cheery note to end on there.
- [40:13]
Josh Bossay
She's no respecter of chapter breaks, I'll put it that way.
- [40:17]
Brent Billings
Yes, not at all. But we started out very much in the same line of reasoning we had just been talking about. What I really like is. I mean, you know, Qohelet has a very good literary flair, a good poetic flair to her language, and even touched on what you talked about earlier, Marty, that prophetic refrain of eating from the vine that you planted, or conversely, planting a vine and then someone else eats from it. That's one of the negative prophetic images that's returned to Allah. And that's kind of what Kohelet evokes here, which is where I feel like that's the other strand of like, in terms of genre, if. If Kohelet is more than just philosophy, it's like kind of prophetic philosophy in the way that it provokes, but without the same kind of prescription and call back to God. And the story that we. Very strange book.
- [41:19]
Josh Bossay
Yes.
- [41:21]
Brent Billings
But that, you know, mounting of the question of what do you actually get for all this, all this work that you're doing. And what I love, too, is in, you know, verses 23 especially, but kind of all throughout, Qohelet starts to add in like we would call it now. Like the, the mental and emotional labor aspects of all this. Talking about turning her heart to the, the struggle of, of despair, giving her heart over to despair. And the anxiety and the, the sleepless nights where your mind can't rest. Your heart is still caught up in all these things. It's irritating, it's painful, it's. It's all these things, all these things that we kind of touched on at the end of the last chapter, that the pursuit of wisdom brings grief and pain with it. But even without that, even just you're living your normal life. You know, you're a welder or car mechanic. Like, you can still think about, like, yeah, what, what happens after I'm gone? What happens, you know, if this or that goes wrong? Like, even our, even our mind, even our heart is, is not safe from this all encompassing labor. That the, the struggle that itself is fruitless. It's Havel. It's just, it's. There's. There's nothing that it produces and, and it worry about, you know, things we can't control. And it's one thing for us, you know, to, to be told like, hey, don't worry about the things you can't control. But, you know, there's also a lot of things we can't control that we kind of have to worry about. Like, and I think that's what Kohella gets to. It's. It's nice to say, you know, platitudes online that encourage people to rest or be less anxious. Like, that's all fine. Not trying to, to criticize anyone who tries to, you know, spread that little bit of joy around. Not saying that's pointless. I'm not as mean as Kohelet, but there, there is like, there is a limit to that. That is, that in and of itself does not solve the larger problem. And that is what Kohelet is facing down. Everything, all those days, painful, irritating. At night, even his mind does not rest. And this I think is where, you know, if we are just focusing on the problems that need to be worked through, that is the situation we find ourselves in. Even more so when we think about the future we can't control and the past that we can't fix. More and more work accumulates. And this is where I think Qohelet sneakily makes some of the most consistent arguments for, in Baymath speak, what we would call rest, you know, the big capital R rest, not just necessarily a Sabbath practice, but rest as a element of God's fundamental mission. And I think that's what Qohelet gets to here at the end. And I think this is even better because translations don't capture this when it talks about in verse 24, to eat and to drink, to enjoy the fruit of your labor. The word that's used there is to let your Nephesh, your soul, your very life, to let your Nephesh see, to. To see goodness. And that phrase of seeing goodness is, like, all over the place in this book. And it is always used in this context of Qohelet will return to this refrain many times of just, you know, enjoy the things that God has given you. And that is see the good. Just like what God did in creation. Which, you know, maybe there's a little full circle on that with, you know, what's the. Pardon me? Maybe there's a little full circle on that with regards to the creation imagery earlier in this chapter. But regardless, like the only. Like, Kohelet is not solving the problem here, but what she does say is, like, I can definitely tell you the best thing that I have seen, the best advice I can give you right now is to just enjoy what you have been given. Whatever you've been blessed with, whether that's a wonderful family, whether that's, you know, good health, whatever it is, enjoy that. Let yourself see the good in it. Don't just, you know, if you only focus on the. The bad, you know, that. That don't drive yourself crazy if you don't have to. Some people don't have that luxury and they have to look at the bad. We all do to some extent. So to whatever extent you're allowed to, you know, see. See goodness. And I think that that's a really beautiful way of kind of a recontextualizing rest in this. In this context. Because it's all from God's hand and it's, you know, you can't control it. You can't make it fruitful or productive. You can't make it have a point. The enjoyment itself and the acknowledgment of God in that enjoyment, connection with God and seeing the goodness that God put in creation. Is there anything better than that? Qohelet has yet to find out, but we can certainly co sign that here on the Baymot podcast.
- [46:42]
Josh Bossay
I feel like I can't remember if he said this at the beginning of the episode, but last episode's talk being so much about the past, this one definitely has a future element. Thinking of legacy and all those comments.
- [46:53]
Brent Billings
Mm, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, we, we. And that is a big part of, you know, I think even on, like, a very small scale, you know, a lot of times. Oh, I think about this all the time when it comes to art. I love making art, but so many times, you know, I just won't do it because it's like, you know, will this even turn out the way I want it to? Maybe I'll just, you know, watch a TV show instead. @ least I won't be disappointed in myself for doing that. Just kidding. Anyway.
- [47:27]
Marty Solomon
Well, I, I think this. This kind of reminds me a little bit of the name and story where, like, what if he had. What if Elisha had been like, why should I even bother with this guy? He's just going to go back to his own land. He's not going to have any resources. He's not going to know anything. He's not going to be able to do anything with what I've given him, buddy. He facilitates that healing anyway.
- [47:52]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [47:53]
Marty Solomon
And I like your car mechanic analogy earlier. Like, why should I bother fixing this car? As soon as they leave with the car, I can't control how they drive. They might just wreck it. As soon as they leave, why should I bother fixing it? And it kind of speaks to the value of doing it. Even though you can't control it.
- [48:13]
Brent Billings
Yes. And I think this is that. Man, I'm so glad you brought that together, Brent, because I feel like that is a very big element of the. The kind of malaise of our times. Is that it, you know, when you feel like there is not just that you can't control the future, but when you feel pretty certain the future is going to suck, then people stop trying. They. They, you know, you'll have the car mechanic who's like, well, I'll fix it, but I'll do, like, the most minimal effort possible because they're just going to drive it like an idiot or it's going to be someone else's car or whatever. Like, there is no. There is no reason to try. And I feel like, you know, that's not the situation Kohelet is looking at, but it is very much our situation. And the problem of the future, of both not being able to see it and in, I think, our modern situation, sometimes not being able to imagine a positive future. Very interconnected questions. And I think, you know, the Qohelet's, like, call to rest and to simplicity and to, like, in a certain sense, not trying to make too much of things, like not trying to do this big project she's doing and make everything connect. To that, like, you gotta kind of just accept the small, simple portion of like, hey, I have this thing to enjoy. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna enjoy this. And you know, the, these bigger questions, like Kohelet is not done with these. They will come back the past and the future. Gohelad is going to be wrestling with these. Spoiler alert the entire book and. But especially because where we're at right now in the book, because we can't see a solution to the difficulty of the future and not knowing what people will do with our own legacy, that is so personal and can be so disturbing that we can be forgetful of rest. And you know, I kind of just want to circle here. I don't have a ton more to say, but I feel like the, you know, Kohelet here especially, I think has made clear how big some of these questions are by like, you know, not only talking about legacy, which is big for all of us individually, but, you know, not just the future, but the future from this like, God positioned lens of like God's creation and what are we doing with it? What kind of legacy do we create for God? In a sense, like, the simplicity of Qohelet's prescription here at the end to just enjoy things like on one hand is kind of a, like a very. I don't know, it's somewhat of a, of an ironic. Like it doesn't feel like she's dodging the question, but it also, like, it's kind of a consolation, I guess of like, yeah, like this is still hanging over us. But I can tell you at least this much, enjoy what God has given you rest in that. But the creation imagery and tying that into all these questions like that is. That's. That's some potent stuff. Do either of you have any thoughts about this?
- [51:45]
Josh Bossay
Just that Qohelet is a hard book to. To do in bite sized chunks because you keep having to break the stream of consciousness. Like there is like the author is building, building, building onto this. There's these building blocks and it's hard to stop and be like, okay, what's our takeaway conclusion? That's tricky because it's like, it's setting you up. It's setting you up. It's setting. Yeah, it's setting you up. And it won't even deliver in the ways that we anticipate, we typically anticipate delivering. But I think that's a. You. You've framed this and, and the last episode really well to keep, to keep us coming along for the journey reflecting on wisdom. Because it's tricky. This. It's tricky to study this.
- [52:27]
Brent Billings
Yeah, and I'll say, too, with that, Marty. Like, it's also tricky to break it up because of how much repetition there is. Like, when I. When you study a big chunk of it at. At a time, you'll see, like, big shifts, but when you're just coming back to little chunks of text, it'll be like, wait, having already said this before, it sometimes. Sometimes go hell, it has sometimes quelled it is saying it in a new context or referencing back to it, or has just been repeating the same phrase in the same chapter. It's a. It's a very. It's a very wily book and one of my favorites for that reason. But the one thing I will leave dangling, maybe just for the audience at home to wrestle with for their own for the next week, because we'll get into this next time with Reid. There's another kind of big, overarching question that is lurking in the background, and it concerns what we were talking about earlier that, you know, with this question of, you know, why do you build all these things and not enjoy them? Like, why would you build all these things if you don't know, like, what your legacy is going to be and who's going to come next and do what with it? For Kohelet, she seems to be gunning for a question about, like, what is God really up to? And, you know, sitting in our seats with. With Jesus in our. In our back pocket and all this other text that comes after Kohelet, all insight, you know, that's a question that we could ask or answer, you know, kind of offhandedly, but maybe just really sit with that. Like what. You know, with all the. When you tap into your own existential strugglings, your own thoughts of legacy and thinking about, you know, if you put yourself in God's shoes and you go through the trouble of creating everything and you're really, really curious about what's coming next, like, what does that. What does that do? It's an interesting question.
- [54:34]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I'm just thinking about what you were talking about as far as, like, breaking this into chunks and stuff. This is kind of a big book, but not so big that you couldn't read it in one sitting. So maybe by the time we're all done, maybe I won't do it on the podcast necessarily, but sit down with this book and try to read it from front to back. I don't know what that would take. 30 minutes or so, a little longer than maybe you would normally read for in this sort of context. But try to, try to catch those flows and stuff, or do it now, whatever. Yeah, if you're, if you're just like, I want to see what's coming, I want a preview of what's to come, that's fine.
- [55:11]
Brent Billings
Absolutely.
- [55:12]
Marty Solomon
But, yeah, being able to read in larger chunks, I'm never disappointed when I do that.
- [55:18]
Brent Billings
Yeah. See, I told you, Brent. We should have done a 12 hour long mega episode for this.
- [55:28]
Marty Solomon
Oh, man, I don't know if I have the endurance for that. I'm getting old, Josh.
- [55:34]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we'll do that if, when we launch. What is it? Bayma plus Premiere streaming platform. If you sign up for the Diamond Tier, then we'll do the 12 hour reps. All right.
- [55:48]
Marty Solomon
Of course, you can find more details about our show@baymondisceptorship.com you can use the contact page there to get into touch with us. Check out the news page to see what we're up to, where we're going to be. If you have some thoughts on Kohelet that you just have to share in person, can track us down that way. And of course, everything we do is made possible by listeners like you who contribute to our work and join us in this wrestling and give us the resources that we need to produce all of these things and spend time digging into this stuff. And, and so we just appreciate that so, so much. But thank you for joining us on the Baymont podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.