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- [00:00]
Kohelet
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host Brent Billings. Today I am joined by Josh Bosse and Kohelet herself to look deeply at the roots of evil.
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Kohelet
Yes, today we are looking at the other side of the coin. Last chapter was all about oppression and solidarity and now we are looking at where that need for solidarity and liberation against oppression comes from. How do we get there? And to go back to Qohelet's the new question that arose all the way back in chapter three, how do we. How do we actually arrive at any kind of spiritual progress when we see so much evil around us? And how do we use that to anchor our identity as something more than animals? But before we jump in, as always, gotta open with this warning, gotta remind us we are doing non abstract philosophy. Quite a quite a thing to wrap our head around. We are looking at material reality. We are looking at human experience. We are not relying on traditional theology to give us answers or assumptions. We are testing these things against our actual material human experience. And we're using that experience to reason. And we have to also remember that Qohelet is constantly demonstrating her rationale through concrete metaphors. When she says she turns to look at something that is telling us that she is actually turning, her gaze is shifting, there's a new perspective. And she is looking at something, asking us to look at something, something that we really see, think about how we see it in real life, all those things. And with that, let's jump into the text of Kohella. Chapter five.
- [02:05]
Brent Billings
Guard your steps. When you go to the house of God, Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools who do not know the they do wrong. Do not be quick with your mouth. Do not be hasty in your heart to utter anything before God. God is in heaven and you are on earth, so let your words be few. A dream comes when there are many cares and many words. Mark the speech of a fool. When you make a vow to God, do not delay to fulfill it. He has no pleasure in fools. Fulfill your vow. It is better not to make a vow than to make one and not fulfill it. Do not let your mouth lead you into sin and do not protest to the temple messenger. My vow was a mistake. Why should God be angry at what you say and destroy the work of your hands? Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. Therefore fear God.
- [03:04]
Kohelet
Wow, a little bit all over the place, huh?
- [03:07]
Brent Billings
Yeah. In this chapter I feel like there's not a whole lot that is otherwise familiar up to this point. There's always been at least like one, you know, overly quoted, overly taken out of context, overly proof texted portion of the chapter. But this one, there's not really so much. Except that last little bit of verse two throws me back to a Rebecca St. James song. Let my words be few. I assume that's where this comes from. They could be somewhere else in the text, but I think it's from here.
- [03:40]
Kohelet
It's probably here. Although it does have the ring of something that could appear elsewhere in wisdom literature.
- [03:47]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And there's lots of stuff in here where it's like, oh, is this familiar because it's actually a familiar portion of Ecclesiastes or is it just the, you know, the general refrain of meaninglessness and whatever else?
- [04:00]
Kohelet
Yes, honestly, that was one of the biggest struggles going through this is there is a lot of repetition internally and then sometimes it's just stuff you've heard elsewhere and it might be an intentional Ramez. Who knows? Who knows? There is so much here. One of the things that I have learned reading this is that there is so much more in Kohelet than, than I know what to do with. But hopefully we'll, we'll tease this a little bit apart. But I want to own up to something first, which is that, you know, we talked about looking into the, the very roots of evil and, you know, stacked up to the oppression that we saw in the beginning of the last chapter. This feels a bit underwhelming, right? Like, just like, don't make hasty vows. Like, what does this have to do with oppression? What's this about dreams? And what does this have to do with where we left off? You know? And first, what I would like to do is remind us that in the last chapter there was an extensive yosef Ramez as well as a Ramez to David. And if we look closely in this opening salvo, we have a couple clear references. The first to me is right in verse one, we have, I think, a very clear reference to David's story. Or more specifically, right before David's story, where in 1st Samuel, chapter 1522, we have Samuel saying, does the Lord have as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord. It's better to obey than sacrifice, and to pay attention is better than the fat of rams. And this is Samuel, of course, talking to Saul, not David. And I wonder if this is contrasted with David because the, the opening verse in Ecclesiastes, to guard your steps as you go to the house of God. It feels like that Might be reminiscent of how seriously David takes God's decisions. I guess what I'm referring to specifically is the death of Uzziah. When they are taking the ark back from the Philistines and someone touches it and instantly dies. David says, well, okay. Hello, sir. Who this. Whose house is nearby. Will you hang on to this? I'm going to leave it right here until I double triple check that I'm good with God before I bring it back to God's house. Yeah, but then after that, I forget if your translation translated this the same way, but immediately after Ecclesiastes says, guard your steps so you go to the house of God. It says, approach to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools. And when I was reading that quote from first Samuel, when they use the word obey, it's better to obey the voice of the Lord than to sacrifice. That word for obey is shamoah, same root as shema, to listen. So it's better to obey God and approach than just to try and offer a sacrifice. Offer a sacrifice. You know, just give them a bunch of rams. Don't think about it like no God would rather have your attention and for you to actually listen. So I think this opening verse is a, is a very clear reference to Saul and David. Remind me again, Brent, how did your translation true. Go with that last line in, in verse one? So I've seen lots of different takes on it.
- [07:49]
Brent Billings
Well, yeah, who do not know that they do wrong.
- [07:51]
Kohelet
That's, that's how NASB has it as well. For they do not do that, know that they are doing evil. And I've, I've seen some translations who put it as they do not know how to do evil, which, yeah, could also have like, another slight bent on it. And I think, you know, there, there's depth to be gained from either translation. I'm not good enough in the Hebrew, and enough people who are good at the Hebrew don't know what to do with it. To the point where I'm, you know, just gonna hold my hands up and let people do what they want with it. But I think that this is especially, especially given the direction we're taking this chapter in. We're looking at evil. What a, what an interesting image to pull David and Saul and to remind us that, you know, Saul did not think he was doing evil. Maybe he should have. Maybe he was not paying attention, didn't have his priorities straight. But it's not that he was trying to, you know, spit in the face of God or anything like that. And reminding us that the roots of evil, you know, we often hear it said, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like, we're aware of this. But I feel like, especially in the church, it's very, very easy for us to use our religious identity to exempt ourselves from closer inspection of our actions because they're done in the name of God. And that's true for probably everyone. I certainly know that I've been guilty of that in my past. And I dare say it's something that, at least in the Western American church, is a very good thing for us to sit with that just because you are giving things to God, just because you are sacrificing things to God does not mean you are listening to or obeying God. And you may not even be aware of the evil that you are doing. So a good place to start. So then we have verse two, to not be quick with our words. And what's interesting about this is the word for being quick with in this case is a word for trembling. And so we could imagine, you know, maybe King Saul trying to make excuses or come up with a reason why he didn't mean to. And he's just kind of babbling and saying things and making promises that he doesn't. Hasn't even thought about if he can keep them. The image works. But what's also interesting is that word to tremble is used. Its first mention actually in the Torah is when the brothers become aware of who Yosef is and they are afraid, they tremble before him. And then, of course, in. Throughout this, really, we have multiple mentions of dreams. So again, a lot of. A lot of Yosef connections here. A lot of. We have some David stuff in here as well. What do we make of this? Brent, as you're hearing this, is this bringing anything up?
- [11:03]
Brent Billings
That first part of two, do not be quick with your mouth. Do not be hasty in your heart to utter anything before God. I think maybe those two things are supposed to go together because the first part initially read to me just as a general proverb kind of thing. Don't be quick with your mouth. And that's in other places. But it seems like it's all about the utterance before God.
- [11:30]
Kohelet
Yes.
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Brent Billings
Because then it goes on to say, God is in heaven, you're on earth. So I need to look at this more specifically than I was before because it just seemed like it's this general proverb thing, but it's really more about how you're approaching God.
- [11:47]
Kohelet
Yes. And notice how that first. The very first verse focuses on Listening, right?
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Brent Billings
Yeah.
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Kohelet
You need to be listening and obeying. Don't just. If you are not listening and obeying and you're offering a sacrifice to God, you are offering the sacrifice of a fool. You are King Saul thinking that he's. He's okay, but actually he's about to get fired.
- [12:10]
Brent Billings
Which I guess does sort of fit with the general proverbial reading. Like, this stuff is kind of all true, generally.
- [12:18]
Kohelet
Yes.
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Brent Billings
But I think the exploration here is, like, when you don't do those things in the context of approaching God, how does that affect things?
- [12:27]
Kohelet
Yes, and that's where I think, you know, when we're not listening, we also tend to be very impulsive with our speech and to. Maybe we say things we don't really mean, or we mean them in the moment, but haven't actually thought, thought about it. We make promises that maybe we even intend to keep them, but we didn't realize that it was too much. And then later we have to go back and say, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to. Which actually a couple verses later, Gohelet specifically calls out, but what I love first is, you know, this. Don't be quick with your mouth or your heart, your consciousness, to bring something up to say something in the presence of God. Like, consider your words before God. This is not your friend that you're trying to explain why you couldn't make it to the, you know, watch the game last night. Like, this is God and God. God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few. God sees so much more. If you're going into the presence of God, we. We can talk about other contexts, you know, praying without ceasing and God being, you know, constantly in our presence as an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But when you're going into God's presence, remember we started by talking. Guard your feet when you go up to the house of God. Okay, you're going to the temple. Don't waste God's time. You know, don't say things that are frivolous, like, be intent and mindful as you go into this space. And immediately after that, we have the dream. And it being something that comes through a lot of it has a great task associated with it. And the voice of the fool comes through many words. Now, what do you make of this, Brent? Because this. This feels a little like it's kind of in the same line where we're talking about, you know, someone who talks too much. But now we've added this dream angle.
- [14:24]
Brent Billings
When there are many Cares. Which one is that? There's an initifa. They translate it the same way, but they have a footnote. What does this say when there are business affairs, tasks, occupations.
- [14:35]
Kohelet
Okay.
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Brent Billings
Yes.
- [14:35]
Kohelet
So that. That is a word. We've seen it many times. It's one of kohelet's favorite words.
- [14:40]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
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Kohelet
This is actually a word that in this form only appears in Kohelet.
- [14:45]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
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Kohelet
Nowhere else in the text. And it is the. Oh, I'm on the wrong verse. It's the word inyan, and it is a form of the root word. I believe it's ana, which is often translated as an affliction. Being humbled, being troubled, being weakened can be used in a lot of contexts, not all of them negative, which is why sometimes it's just associated with something you have to do, like a business thing, an occupation, a task. I like keeping the idea of affliction in the back of my head. And when we think about this in the context of yosef, I think it becomes really clear the way I have it translated here, that a dream comes in this affliction. So, you know, if you are like Joseph, right. And you have a dream and it's a big dream. Right. It's like, oh, you know, everyone's bowing down to me. Do you think that dream is just going to come through? Like, the next day your check's going to come in the mail and they're going to say, congratulations, you are now king of the world. And we've taken care of every. Like. No, it's going to. A dream like that is going to come with a lot of hardship, a lot of work. It's a big task. And then this being paired with the voice of a fool comes through many words. Well, let's think about whether yosef and his dreams and maybe saying too much about them affected yosef, because the first thing he does with these dreams and goes and tells everyone all about it. Yeah. And gets the ire of his brothers. And, you know, to be honest, rightly so. Those are kind of big things to be saying so lightly. We can. We can see how that played out.
- [16:36]
Brent Billings
Yes. Although I. So Joseph is given the second. The second garment. Let's say El will be mad if I say anything other than undergarment. But whatever he's given the second thing, he is set apart as something special, out of place from what the birth order would suggest. So he already has this, and then it says he has the dream. And so my, like, I'm just thinking he's just excited, like, hey, dad, you broke the tradition. You gave me this thing out of place, and then I had this dream and it confirmed it.
- [17:22]
Kohelet
Sure. Yeah.
- [17:23]
Brent Billings
But how he went about it was apparently foolish enough. I mean, you could also say that it's all in God's plan. Like, he needed to get his brothers mad at him, to send him down to Egypt to become, you know, the ruler of everything and save everybody. But how. How do you go about it? Even if it's like. Even if it's like a confirmation of something, that you're like, oh, God is doing this thing, or God is using my dad to, like, set things up in this way, and I. Maybe it's just a misinterpretation.
- [17:56]
Kohelet
Well, see, I. I think that it's like, I can see what you're saying that all flows together, and I. You know, we can certainly imagine a young Joseph thinking that way. But, you know, in. In terms of the larger context, like, it is pretty significantly different. Like, being the b. Being the next patriarch is not the same as saying, everyone's going to bow to me. Like, the. The bowing thing. And. And not just his brothers, but his father and his mother would bow to him. Like, that was also part of the dream. So, like, imagine that, like, you know, you're in a family like this, and dad's playing favorites, and then that kid who's, you know, spoiled and gets everything their way and is just can't do anything wrong, then comes out and says, I'm actually going to be the president of the United States. You know, I'm actually going to be the president, and then you're going to have to do everything I say. Like, that isn't just, oh, yeah, just another thing. Like, that's taking it to another level and kind of rubbing your face in it and not only saying, like, you know, I'm going to go even further than how far I've already gotten, but, like, oh, I've got. I have a dream that told me this. Like, I'm also special to God, and I have a special destiny and fate. Like, that's doubly triply infuriating.
- [19:18]
Brent Billings
But confirmed with two separate dreams.
- [19:21]
Kohelet
Sure. And it did come to pass. I mean, even the symbolism of the dreams, right? The chiefs bowing and, yeah, you know, it had to do with grain, but this is where it was foolish, and Yosef suffered for that foolishness. And when we compare that to, you know, how Yosef handled giving interpretations of dreams later on, we can see maybe a little bit more wisdom. Maybe he's learned some things. I definitely think that there is something to be learned there. Even though it did all work out, like, you know, obviously things turned out. And I. I think that's what colors our interpretation of those moments as, like, well, it worked out so he was right. And it's like, yeah, but maybe it also would have turned out the same way if. But without him being in prison or something. Like, who knows?
- [20:12]
Brent Billings
Yeah. How would it have played out if he had been played his cards a little closer to the chest there?
- [20:17]
Kohelet
Yeah. And. Wow, that would be a cool. A cool thing to learn. But this is, you know, this is reminding us of the other side of Yosef, the side that was, you know, maybe not thinking about his words and resting on the fact that he was in a privileged position and life was going great for him. If you were in a slightly different position, you might be more careful. And in this case, David stands out more as, you know, one who is careful When. When we see David conducting himself, especially around God, like, reverence is like, top of his. In fact, he sometimes seems to even be overly reverent or very public in his reverence in ways that I think demonstrate this. This quality to a t. Whereas Yosef does not seem. He. He treats this divine vision like, hey, guess what? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is what happened to me. And it's.
- [21:13]
Brent Billings
It's.
- [21:14]
Kohelet
It kind of betrays, I guess, a lack of awareness. And. And that's where it. It makes the person seem like a fool even if the dream is 100% true.
- [21:22]
Brent Billings
Right.
- [21:22]
Kohelet
So, you know, this is. And I think this is also important for us as American Christians to think about that. You know, if we are really out here sharing the gospel, sharing something that is a world changing radical truth that is, you know, like. Like it says in John, you know, if the. If the darkness cannot grasp it, like, we should be more mindful of how we try and share these things and lead people to it with more considered words. You know, share our dreams and visions and spiritual guidance with the same kind of reverence we would if it was a careful matter that God had given us to steward. Because that's exactly what it is. And with that, I want to jump into after this because there's a paragraph break in the middle of what we read. Then we jump to making a vow, which kind of takes. Takes the conversation in some. I mean, it's. It's still the same direction, but it's a little bit more pointed now. You know, don't make a vow and not do it. It would be better to not vow than vow and not pay. Like you said, this kind of all sounds very standard wisdom literature. Makes sense. It'd be better to not stand up and, you know, publicly look very righteous, but then not pay. You know, it would have been better for you if you had just not said anything than one of the other people. Like, I. I remember this, I feel like happens all the time in Christian settings where, like, you know, someone will be like, hey, let's pray. Does anyone want to volunteer to pray? And there's that, like, 15 seconds in my brain where I'm just like, okay, wait, am I in a place where I feel like praying? Do, like, do I. Do I actually. Like, am I just. Am I going to be a good Christian and do this? And it's like, okay, wait, no, don't do it out of obligation. Don't try and, you know, do that. But, like, am I really in a place. Can I speak for all the prayer requests here? Like, you know, try and do that honestly. But there is that sense of, like, wanting to be the one that's like, yeah, I'll do it. I'll. I'll stand up and be the person who speaks for us. And obviously, that's not the same as making a vow, to be clear. Like, I'm not trying to draw a parallel there, only to the pressure of wanting to stand up and say, yeah, I'll. I'll do it. I'll support this new project, or, I'll take care of this person. Or, you know, you hear someone who's going through a rough time at your church, and you're like, yeah, no, I'll definitely help you with this problem. And then, you know, do we actually always follow up on that? That's a good question to think about. But specifically when it comes to vowing something to God, that should be taken very seriously. Now, I don't think that this is, like, controversial or complicated. And in fact, this is almost a direct quote from Deuteronomy, if you want to look at it. Deuteronomy 23, 21, 23. And it basically just says this. Like, it's. It's. I. I would quote it, except it's literally just the same thing we read. It outlines the same points. Don't delay in fulfilling your vow vow. It would be a sin if you don't fulfill your vow. If you don't make a vow, then there's no sin. Like, literally same points. And it even specifies the point that Kohelet makes immediately after this about your lips. Like, don't let your. Your Words be the thing that, you know, causes you to sin. Like, why should it. It's so easy to just not talk.
- [24:52]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it's.
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Kohelet
It's so easy to. And I feel like that's also the advice we could say for everything going back up to the top of the chapter. Hey, Saul, just don't say anything and just listen. Hey, Yosef, just don't tell them. Just take a minute and listen to what other people have to say. First, read the room and then see if you have something to say.
- [25:12]
Brent Billings
There is that one extra bit in the Ecclesiastes version of it, though, which is, do not protest to the temple, messenger. My vow was a mistake. Why should God be angry at what you say and destroy the work of your hands? If you make a vow to God, don't delay to fill it. He has no pleasure in fools. Fulfill your vow. It's better not to make a vow than to make one and not fulfill it. Okay, yeah, sure. Great. Then it moves on to like. But don't mention it if you don't quite pull it off, because why should God be angry at you? As if God is not going to notice that you failed to fulfill your vow unless you admit to it.
- [25:50]
Kohelet
Okay, so actually, I think that that verse is saying something different. So. And. And maybe this is a translation thing. So one thing to note here is that the word there for temple messenger, it is literally just messenger. So the word there is malach, which means it could be read as angel. But the sense there is that it's a. You know, if you've made a vow to God, it's usually something from the temple. So practically that makes sense. But let's say you made a vow to God privately, like in the modern day, and an angel comes down and says, hey, why don't you sell all your possessions and give them to the poor like you said? You said, oh, I didn't really mean that. I had. You know, I was at a retreat. I was feeling really spiritual, and I made that vow when I was looking up at the stars, praying to you. But then when I got home and I talked to my wife, I realized that, like, that's not really fair to her or the kids. So I just didn't do it. That's where Kohelet's advice here is, is don't say it was unintentional. Don't say it was a mistake. And the word that he uses there is a word used throughout Leviticus, talking about different kinds of sin. This is the word for an unintentional sin. So basically saying like, don't. Like if you are called out by an angel or a messenger, like, don't plead innocence like that will. You know, that's even like more insulting on another level. Like, oh, I just forgot that I made that vow or something like that. When, you know, when you didn't even forget. That's even, even worse. Like, it. It with all of these that there seems to be a. An issue of like, now, at least at this part of the chapter, the focus is on like, being real and genuine. Like, actually say what you mean to say. Think about it. Don't treat this frivolously. Don't treat your sin frivolously as something that you can just brush off. Like it. It is. This is. This is big stuff. And Kohelet, throughout this book is not writing some book where you know every other word. She's praising God. In fact, if anything, like, a lot of the stuff she says about God kind of emphasizes to some extent that God has made a difficult life for us. And she's not afraid to point that out. But at the same time, like, it's because of that. Because of, as she said in the next verse, rather fear God. Like, actually take God seriously. You know, that is something that is very important. And when we do things like excuse our sin or make vows quickly and break them quickly, you know, we're basically saying that we don't take God very seriously. Again, this is all so far, like, pretty straightforward and clear. But the question I have is, you know, again, we've talked before about like, oh, this is weird that Kohelet saying such like straightforward wisdom literature type stuff is not something that I'm like, oh, this is too hot for proverbs to put out.
- [28:54]
Brent Billings
What's. What's the catch here?
- [28:55]
Kohelet
What's the catch exactly? And I think, you know, we are going somewhere. We started with like, the importance of listening. Going to be like, hey, be careful with your speech. One thing I want to emphasize here is in this verse, before we get to the verse about that that goes back to dreams, is it says, don't let the. The specific words in Hebrews. Don't let your mouth cause your flesh to sin. And it's very specific wording there. Don't let your mouth cause your flesh to sin. Which is translated as like, don't let your speech cause you to sin. It's one thing to make a mistake or to make a stupid vow, and it's another thing to actually, you know, make God angry at you. Now I looked For a reference, for this. And there is a reference to Yoseph in Genesis 37:27. So when he says, don't let your mouth cause your flesh to sin, in Genesis 37:27, we have Joseph's brothers talking about selling him off. Or. Or rather when they decide to sell him off rather than kill him, they say, let's not do violence. This is Judah speaking in defense of yosef. Let's not kill him because he is our own flesh. Therefore, traders pass by, they sell yosef off. And so I wonder if what kohele is saying here is that our words can also cause other people to sin. And to go back to the point I was making earlier about our additional need to hear this as Christians in the modern day is, you know, we can technically be sharing the gospel, speaking words from God's book, although, you know, we know someone else who knows the words of God very well and quotes them at opportune moments. And we know that this can cause other people to sin. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that, you know, in a heavenly sense shifts the blame and that people aren't responsible for their actions, but if we care about sin, then we should be careful that our words don't cause others to sin like yosef. What if yosef had just seen how frustrated his brothers were and just been chill, not brought back a bad report to his dad? Maybe he's just a little smarty pants who always knows how to do things a little better. And so instead of, you know, just going back and saying, yep, they're taking care of the sheep, he goes back and says, yeah, they're taking care of the sheep. They could be doing a much better job if they did this, this, this and this. I don't really trying anyway. I'm going to go play on my game boy now. Oh, good job, yosef. You're my favorite son. Like that, you know, it could go multiple ways. And yosef chose a way that infuriated his brothers. And again, like I said, they. They were infuriated for the wrong reasons. Like, they had a very good reason to be angry. That certainly doesn't justify them doing violence to their brother. Certainly not murdering their brother, certainly not selling him into slavery. But could he have saved them from that sin with his words, with his mouth? And if we can save people from sin by helping them not make those mistakes, just by saying something in a less vitriolic way, in a less inflammatory way, my goodness, we should think about that, because I. I see what gets posted online. You know, I've been there. So Qohelet here is potentially not just rehashing something that is so well known. It's in the dang Torah. Kohelet, I think, is adding in at first a note about how, you know, we can cause others to sin. We can cause our own family to sin. One other thing that's very interesting is that when it talks about God destroying the work of your hands, that can also mean to be seized. That the work of your hands can be seized. And in fact, when it's used in that sense, it's almost always used in the sense of taking a pledge for a vow, like taking collateral. And that, to me is very interesting, that God taking something out of our life as like collateral for a vow. Maybe this is the vow that we said to the angel. Oh, I forgot about that. I meant to pay that. The checks. It must have gotten lost in the mail. Huh? That's weird. And he's like, yeah, then, you know, then certainly you won't mind if God repossesses your car. Something, you know, like that is. That is what's going to happen when you, like when we play these games, when we are not careful with our words and the effect they have on other people, when we make promises and don't take them seriously. Don't take seriously the way that even our words, something as simple and easy to control as our words, you know, it's free to say sorry. It's free to just make a good solid apology where we don't try and mitigate our image. And yet so often we choose to. To hang on to those words that could bring so much peace. Like we're a greedy miser. And when we do that, like God sees that God is not unaware of how we can hide the keys to peace and play keep away with people who we inflame with our. With our words. And if we do that just with our words, man, what else is the human heart capable of? This is where we are looking deeper into those sins that just seem to pop up everywhere like weeds. Let's see. Was there anything else? There might be a little bit of a reference here to Jeff that I thought, you know, with a whole idea of sinning your mouth causing your flesh to sin. Like, maybe there's a connection there. I don't know. Didn't seem very strong to me.
- [35:01]
Brent Billings
But yeah, certainly in a thematic sense, I would say it fits.
- [35:05]
Kohelet
Yes.
- [35:06]
Brent Billings
If nothing else.
- [35:07]
Kohelet
And we're, you know, learning all this, you know, on one sense, very basic, but also a very kind of nuanced progression of looking at how we listen to how we speak. And interestingly, Qohelet keeps bringing it back to God. And I am interested to see where we go from here. Let's go ahead and read the next couple verses.
- [35:30]
Brent Billings
If you see the poor oppressed in a district and justice and rights denied, do not be surprised at such things. For one official is eyed by a higher one, and over them both are others higher still. The increase from the land is taken by all. The king himself profits from the fields.
- [35:48]
Kohelet
Oh, very good. And I actually. I kind of dig on that translation. There are a couple things. I like the. I like the addition of the one official is eyed by another. That's a really cool way to translate that. So diving right into looking at the details of the translation, because these two verses, particularly the second one, verse nine, there is a lot of confusion over how to translate them. When I sent this to Elle to get her official opinion, she was like, I don't know. If you translate it literally, it's this. And it was just the most garbled sentence of all time. It is very tricky to find out, you know, who is what and anywho. So there is something going on here. We. We shift now to talking about oppression. The thing that, you know, we were kind of building to. And what I love about this is that, you know, k kind of jumps back to her own perspective of having witnessed this. Says, if you see this, if you see oppression, and if you see, you know, no justice, no righteousness, don't be surprised. Like, going back to these things that in the previous two chapters, she was like, I saw this. And I was like, what the heck? This is. How can we say that we're any different from animals? Now she's saying, ah, don't be surprised. Don't be surprised. This is the norm. This is. This is how the sausage gets made. Honey, just, you know, don't be such a rube. Don't be naive. But when we start picking apart the logic here, it becomes a very interesting statement. So don't be shocked, because one official watches over another, and there are people higher than them. So there is this chain of command. There's a hierarchy. Now, what does this have to do with the first point? Not our normal Greek syllogistic linear logic. Let me start by asking this. If there's oppression of the poor and there's a denial of justice and there's no righteousness, who's doing that?
- [37:57]
Brent Billings
I mean, I guess the most direct officials to those people.
- [38:02]
Kohelet
Yeah, if if you're not getting justice, it's a, it's a judge or a law enforcement officer or something like they're the ones who get to decide what justice is. So if it's being denied, that's it's going to be those officials and, and if not them, then those higher than them. And you know, it's all interconnected. But if we just focus on the like, the most basic level of this, you know, like, I don't know, someone's, someone's ripping off their customers or something like that, we might think like, wait, isn't the chain of command supposed to like, stop that? Like, isn't this hierarchy supposed to put an end to those sorts of things? Why? Especially because the word there that's used is chomere. One official show mayors over another. That's where I, I like the idea of its eyed by like, it has this sense of like, oh, they're being, they're being watched, you know, the, their higher up has an eye on them. So this would seem, you know, on first glance, you know, at least the way our institutions are professed to being run or how, how they're intended to be run. Hierarchy, checks and balances, it's all supposed to keep these sorts of abuses from happening. But Kohelet is emphasizing that it's not just, you know, the person in power, but there's a person in power over them and a person in power over them and then seems to shoot all the way up to the king.
- [39:31]
Brent Billings
That's what makes it so weird. It's like, are they saying there's no incentive for anybody to provide justice? Because at the end of the day, everybody above them, like, there's just no, there's no real accountability. Yeah, the incentive structure is all wrong.
- [39:49]
Kohelet
Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it there, there. But I, and I would say that there's. Let's, let's flip it this way. Like if we, if we want to put this linearly, then we have to start with the king. Right. And I love the way your translation put it that, you know, even. What was it the even the king profits from the field or something like that?
- [40:10]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And there's quite a footnote on this in the net where they give you like four different ways that this gets translated. So of course, no easy answers.
- [40:22]
Kohelet
Yes. So. Oh, right, I forgot about this that. L showed me something really interesting here.
- [40:31]
Brent Billings
Oh, easy answer. After all.
- [40:33]
Kohelet
No, not, not quite an easy answer, but it supports my theory.
- [40:37]
Brent Billings
Okay.
- [40:37]
Kohelet
Is at the beginning of verse nine, we have the word Yitron. It is the Yitron of the Eretz, the earth in everything. The king is served by the field. So let me put it to you this way. If you are an ancient farmer and you're getting stepped on by the man, you're getting overtaxed and all that, and it's coming from the king, maybe it's even coming from King Solomon. And you say, gosh, that guy, he's got all the gold in world. Why does he keep trying to ring every scent out of me like, I'm just a farmer? What does he care about, you know, how I do this or that in my fields? And what Kohelet is saying here is ultimately, even the king needs the field. It's. It's the throne of the earth. It's the abundance of the earth that is in everything. And so even though you may think like, hey, why, why am I getting stepped on? I'm. I'm just a nobody, like, I'm not trying to cause any trouble or anything, but it's. It's that, well, you know, if the king needs extra, he. That's where he's gonna get it from. And that follows that same logic flows down the whole line. They're going to look for extra from the place where they can get it, which is lower than them on the food chain. And at some point, it all comes back to what we can pull out of the ground. So don't be surprised. Like, yeah, they're going to oppress the poor because those are the people that are easy to oppress. We don't write movies about, or books or stories about people who, who like, rip off the poor.
- [42:21]
Brent Billings
We.
- [42:22]
Kohelet
We write stories about Robin Hood and we write stories about heists and, you know, ripping off big, big powerful people. Like, that is an interesting story. There's. There's some danger and challenge there. Going to a bunch of people that are, you know, working three jobs and are just overtired and malnourished and all those things, like, those. That is just sad to see because then there's nothing compelling about it narratively, because it's just. It's just sad. There's. There's nothing to it. It's. It's very easy, so don't be surprised. And again, like, then we look back at what was said in the first verse about the official and the official over them. And it's not just that there's no incentive to put in to do things more righteously, but it's that, you know, if we think about, like, the Whole tax collector system. In Jesus's time, there was not only a incentive for tax collectors to cheat the people they're collecting taxes from, I. E. Taking more than they actually needed to, but that was also literally just how they made their profit like that, or not even profit. How they made like their own wage is you get whatever is left over after you give us what we need. And I'm guessing the guy who's above them probably inflates how much he needs and the guy, because the guy above him inflates it. So I got to do it. Just, it's just cost of doing business, man. I'm just another middleman. Right. I just need to add a little bit on top so I can have some margin.
- [43:57]
Brent Billings
Yeah, we're looking at at least four people between the king and the oppressed because we have the official and then the higher one. And then it says others plural are higher still. And then it gets to the king. Yes, that's a lot of middle management.
- [44:14]
Kohelet
And if each of them gets a cut that the, the savings are not passed down, they say, you know, we'll pass the savings on to you. No, that's not what happens. The costs get passed on to you. You know, I, I say here as it's like literally not prohibitively expensive, but it's, you know, you got to watch how many eggs you eat. You gotta. We're changing up our breakfast menus in the boss A household and you know, we're, and we're very comfortable financially, but it's, you know, I'm not the, I'm not saying I'm too poor to afford eggs, but it's just like, dang, we can't, let's not eat eggs every morning like we usually do.
- [44:51]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't, yeah.
- [44:54]
Kohelet
All that to say. Like there is this whole discourse on how we can ignore God and protect our own image, our own well being and just with our words, just with something as ephemeral and you know, relatively meaningless or not meaningless, but you know, trivial. Like it doesn't, it doesn't take a lot of time or money to just, you know, not say something or say something. Listening is free. Talking to people is free. But we will hurt other people with our words and we will withhold words that could free them, that could ease their spirit, that could help them to avoid wrongdoing. We'll even do that to God. Kohelet reminds us we will even sin against God with our speech. And if we'll sin over something as, as paltry as. As words, then why should we be surprised when something that has much more consequences, like having enough money in our bank account, we'll definitely sin over that. You know, we'll def. And if it's not God, but someone we don't know, then how much more willing are we? And this is where the beauty of Kohelet's argument kind of snaps into focus, where it's just like, oh, you know, we've seen people make really dumb mistakes just with what they say. So how much more willing are we to do evil when it actually gives us a direct material benefit? And it's people who don't have any power over us? So don't be surprised when you see it like it is the natural course of things. When there is a hierarchy, when there is someone with power and someone without power, it's just. It's. It's gonna happen. And again, we are talking about what happens beneath the sun. Kohelet is not speaking with the knowledge of Christ and the Holy Spirit in her heart. So, you know, we could say this and hope that things would be different now, but unfortunately, that is not as true as I wish it was. And in fact. Yeah, you know what? I'm not going to say anything else about that. I'm going to say. Brett, do you have any more thoughts?
- [47:12]
Brent Billings
I'll say what you. Maybe not quite what you're holding back, but just the idea of corruption in general. It's so easy to be corrupt, because a lot of times it's just somebody above you is corrupt, and you have to do corrupt things just to survive.
- [47:31]
Kohelet
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [47:33]
Brent Billings
Because they're taking more than they're supposed to. And so you have to find a way to make that work. And a lot of times that ends up leading to your own corruption, even if that's not really what you would want to do. Then you're also thinking like, well, I got to take care of my family. I'm just doing what I have to do to survive. And you justify it, and that doesn't make it right either, but it's just when one part of the system gets corrupt, it's so easy for the whole thing to devolve into corruption.
- [48:01]
Kohelet
Oh, absolutely.
- [48:02]
Brent Billings
And we see it everywhere.
- [48:03]
Kohelet
Yeah. I mean, I. I'm glad you put it in those terms and kind of brought us back down to earth. This reminds me of. I may have even shared this story on the podcast. Stop me if I've shared this before, Brent. When I. When I was at my lowest was when I was working at a Call center in northern Idaho. It was a very bad job. And what was worse about it was I worked for a Internet phone company, and I worked in a department that was both customer service and sales simultaneously, which means a customer. 90% of my calls are a customer calling, saying, hey, something doesn't work, or, hey, my bill is too much, or, hey, you said you would do this, but you didn't. And then I would help them as best I can. And also, I was obligated by my job to try and sell them directv and upgrade their plan and all those things. I had a sales quota to meet, even though most of my calls were people who were already paying too much and were trying to get help for something someone else had done. And then over time, you know, your managers, they also get on your case. If you're on the phone for more than eight minutes. Actually, I think it was eight minutes and 50 seconds. They had a timed. And if you were on the phone longer than that, you had a manager behind you saying, hey, what's taking so long? Then on top of that, every now and then, managers would say, hey, you know, here's a little trick to, you know, get someone to add a package to their plan that maybe they aren't aware that you could give them a cheaper package. But, you know, this. And this little tricks to just, you know, not lie, not do anything strictly unethical, but, you know, when you have literal quotas to me and no way to fulfill them, it exactly like you said, it pushes you to say, oh, maybe I just. Maybe I do lie. Maybe I do true, you know, trick this person into getting something they don't want. And then, you know, and then that, you know, poor little lady or single mother of four calls up three months later saying, why do I have a $2,000 bill? This wasn't what I talked to the person about. And, you know, the cycle goes on and on, and that is. That is the reality. Thanks for giving us that transition, Brett.
- [50:21]
Brent Billings
I know I've heard you tell that story before, but I don't know if it's on the podcast or not, so I didn't stop you.
- [50:25]
Kohelet
Well, there we go now. Now it's in the record twice. Yep. There. There are human beings on the other side of the customer service line, and their job sucks.
- [50:36]
Brent Billings
Just know that the matter must be confirmed by two witnesses.
- [50:40]
Kohelet
Yes. And like we know from Joseph, you know, sometimes it's two dreams that are the same dream. Wow. All right, let's keep going. We gotta keep pushing. We got a chunk of the text left.
- [50:55]
Brent Billings
Whoever loves money never has enough. Whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with their income. This too is meaningless. As goods increase, so do those who consume them. And what benefit are they to the owners, except to feast their eyes on them? The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether they eat little or much. But as for the rich, their abundance permits them no sleep. I have seen a grievous evil under the sun. Wealth hoarded to the harm of its owners, or wealth lost through some misfortune, so that when they have children, there is nothing left for them to inherit. Everyone comes naked from their mother's womb. And as everyone comes, so they depart. They take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands. This too is a grievous evil. As everyone comes, so they depart. And what do they gain? Since they toil for the wind all their days, they eat in darkness with great frustration, affliction and anger.
- [51:56]
Kohelet
Wow. Pretty straightforward, right? This isn't one of those where it's like, wait, where is she going with this? What's her thought process here like? This is very self explanatory. And honestly, there's not a ton I have to add here. The one thing I want to mention, there are two times that phrase a grievous evil. In my translation it says a sickening evil. But the root word there is. It has the sense of something that wears you down. So this is talking about an evil that isn't just some big calamity happens to you, but it erodes your mental health. We can all picture that. And we have these two images. The first one being someone that has. Has guarded their wealth, has, you know, has. And I think in. In this sense, actually. First, let's, let's jump back because I feel like wealth in the modern day is a little different to talk about that than wealth in this time. So in verse 11, I think you know, when. When goods, when good things increase, so do those who consume them. And this is true today, but even more true back then, because if you have goods that make you wealthy back then, we're talking about actual stuff. You have lumber, you have cloth, you have a harvest. And it's not just a bank account that can hold infinite amounts of money. If you have too much grain, well now you have to build another storehouse. And you have to pay people to watch that storehouse and people to fill the storehouse. You're not doing it all yourself, probably. Maybe it's you and your family. Because we also have to remember the. The not that this was universally applied but in the, in the Torah, like the basic idea of how their society would be structured is that you know, every family has their own land. Everyone is a property owner and is farming their land for their own benefit. You're not working for someone else. You're not, you don't have like in the modern day a, a work job. Like you are all self employed. So someone who has wealth, who has like, you know, had a couple good harvests, treated their land right and they're, you know, they're careful about their money, they guard it and then that ends up being his downfall. Like oh, he, he had enough money, he thought, oh okay, you know, maybe I'll do a little investing. And then instantly, boom, money gone. Oh, and I have a kid on the way. Oh my goodness. Like that. Oof. What a rough thing. I don't think this is talking about like you know, the 1% kind of wealth. This is, this is talking about someone who's like, you know, got a good thing going and they're careful about it and then one mistake in their life just falls apart bit by bit. This being paralleled that exactly as a person is born so he will die. What I think is cohelet is, is showing here is really, you know, more than anything, she's pulling apart our relationship to wealth and money. Which you know, based on the argument she made in the first half about like how, how massively consequential our words can be for righteousness and justice. How much more therefore when you know, we have an actual material interest and then is now talking about our relationship with, to that material wealth and first talks about how, you know, if you, if you just love that wealth, it, it's, it's. You're never going to be satisfied. It's empty. Why? Because you know, the more you have, the more you have to work at keeping it safe. Whether it's from robbers or from people who want to swindle you out of it or out business you or whatever. You know, once you're playing the game, you can just. There's always another hand to be dealt. Another, another new problem, another issue. And it'll keep costing you more to protect that. And this has been contrasted with, with rest. You know, one of the things that Kohelet has consistently spoken highly of that if you actually work for your money, then your rest is great. Even if you don't have enough to eat. Even if you don't have enough to eat, you can at least enjoy your rest. But the, the wealthy and Those who are specifically like chasing after wealth can't ever rest. Even their rest is like, you know, wasted time. Think about how much that is centered in our culture. And I'm just going to move right on from that point because then he talks about this poor person who trusted in their money, maybe, you know, stepped out a little bit to try and, you know, go into the big leagues and just instantly strikes out, loses his kids college fund. He bet way too much too early. But you know, he really thought his, you know, sports bar was going to take off or whatever it was. The recession hits, boom, he's. He's got nothing even. He's. Maybe he's even losing his house and they have another kid on the way. What a sickening evil. And the sickeningness of it is like I said before, that that idea of the grievous evil is something that is like, it wears you down. Now the specific situation he talks about here, that guy, the evil thing that happened to him happened all at once. He had all this wealth and it ended up betraying him because then, you know, when he goes into this bad business, all of a sudden it's gone. That isn't a like grinding down sort of thing. To me, that wearing away sort of irritating evil is the thing behind it. It's that love of wealth that pulls you into that position where, hey, you had a nice thing going, you had a house that was, you know, good enough for your family. You were, you know, you had enough in savings, like you could have been fine, but you got tricked by this narrative into trying to, to go for something bigger. Get, get your American dream, get your slice of the pie, even though you already had enough. Oh, like seeing that really just wears you down. Even if it's not your friend, even if it's not your brother who did that, you know, it's still just makes you really sick to your stomach. And then this transitions to the image of returning as he came, naked from his mother's womb, naked at the end, taking nothing of the fruit of his labor. Now this seems to be a more overarching thing because this is true for everyone. You know, we all our clothes will, you know, even if we're all dressed up in our caskets, that won't last for long at the end of the day, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. And what was all that fighting and striving for? So, and this is something that you read over. I'm wondering if you noticed it. There's something very strange, very novel for kohelet in verse 16. Oh, it should. It should jump out to you. It's not a subtle thing.
- [59:00]
Brent Billings
Toiling for the wind.
- [59:01]
Kohelet
Toiling. What was the preposition there?
- [59:03]
Brent Billings
Toil for the wind.
- [59:04]
Kohelet
Toil for the wind.
- [59:06]
Brent Billings
Now, how do we use for the wind?
- [59:07]
Kohelet
For the wind, huh? And this sentence starts off with another familiar image, or rather the question. Ma. Yatron, what is the. What is the extra. What is the remnant? Yeah, what is. What is the. What is the something more that comes from this. This lust for wealth, this desire to make it big, to add some zeros and some commas to your bank account. What is really left over? Like you said, you can't take it with you. And by being like, you could be so focused on wealth that you actually lose it all. How many people lost it all because they tried to play the stock market or flip houses or whatever and got underwater and then lost it all. They would have been better to just keep their money, you know, keep it in a bank account, live a normal life. So what is the advantage? And this is, I think, where that. The. The phrase that sticks out. Who labors for the wind? Who. And that word there for labor is to say is that struggle word, Amal, who struggles for the wind in service of the wind. And normally Kohele talks about trying to shepherd the wind. Trying to, you know, in. In kind of in this very cohellate way of wanting to live in this wise way, wanting to, you know, just even the normal human desire to control outcomes even when they can't be controlled.
- [60:32]
Brent Billings
Right.
- [60:33]
Kohelet
But in this case, like the wind as this kind of chaotic force that insofar as it's very unpredictable. Right. That's why the image of shepherding wind is so ironic and poignant, is because it's completely impossible. It's. It's like I said before, it's like, you know, we say herding cats, herding the wind is. Is doubly impossible. Infinitely more impossible. So to be laboring for the wind is like you're kind of like, leaning into that chaos and, like, laboring for it. Like you're. You're loving that things are so unpredictable and anything could happen at any moment. And that, of course, includes you losing everything and not being able to pass anything off to your kids. So then it's here kind of ties it up neatly, like this love of money that, you know, we kick off this. This whole portion with that, I feel like, is what Kohelet is referring to by laboring for the wind. And then what does that lead to? Even if, you know we're looking at a person who hasn't lost it all, who is still, you know, riding the wave and seeing success and hoarding wealth and everything's going good for them. And he's, you know, oppressing and exploiting and just doesn't really think about it because that's how the bills get paid. That's how money gets made. And what does Colette say? All his life, he eats, which we have to remember. Eating is Qohelet's image for enjoying life, enjoying God's blessings. He eats in darkness with great irritation, sickness, and anger. And I don't even think this needs any explaining. Like, it feels very obvious. Like, yeah, it's hard to enjoy anything when. When everything is a matter of, you know, this is zero sum. How could I get more?
- [62:30]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And that kind of calls back to that earlier idea of eating. The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether they eat little or much. But as for the rich, their abundance permits them no sleep. Presumably they're eating much again later on. Presumably they are eating much, but they're doing so in darkness. And so they're just frustrated.
- [62:49]
Kohelet
Yeah. And honestly, like, all of those images are really interesting to me, and I wish I could break it down more, but we gotta press on here. Kohelet's made her point, and it's a great point.
- [63:03]
Brent Billings
Okay. This is what I have observed to be good. That it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink, and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them, for this is their lot. Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil, this is a gift of God. They seldom reflect on the days of their life because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.
- [63:38]
Kohelet
A conclusion we have heard many times from Kohelet and will hear many more times. Enjoy what God's given you. If God's even given you the ability to enjoy it, and if you have more than others, which I would say, you know, in the same spirit of Brent saying, presumably they're eating much. Presumably, if you are listening to this podcast, you are doing better than most people. Maybe not. I mean, of course, here in America, everyone has access to a podcast, but, you know, you. Yeah, you can. You can be poor and oppressed and listen to a podcast. Of course.
- [64:15]
Brent Billings
Yeah. I don't know, dude. I feel like the proliferation of smartphones is pretty much worldwide.
- [64:22]
Kohelet
It's true, it's true. But I would say that nevertheless the likelihood of you listening to this podcast, and I mean on a global level, I don't think people working in mines in Africa are listening to the Baymot podcast.
- [64:44]
Brent Billings
I mean, who knows, who knows, who knows?
- [64:47]
Kohelet
That would be really cool if we, if we have listeners there shout out, you are, you are seen and we pray for you. But presumably we are all in, you know, can, can understand, especially now with the, the Internet and everything. We can understand more broadly our, our position and that we, we do have significant wealth just, you know, by accident of where we're born and what we have access to. And if you have the time to listen to a in depth Bible nerd podcast, you probably have the ability to enjoy it. And that is, you know, again, that is the call to rest of Bema and even that is the gift of God. But now this very last verse has the final little fun nuance. Did you catch anything in there that reminded you of anyone? I'll read it again while I give you some time to think. He will not often call to mind the years of his life because God keeps him busy with the joy of his heart.
- [65:58]
Brent Billings
I'm not quite grabbing anything specifically, but I'm going to assume it's Joseph.
- [66:04]
Kohelet
Yes, it is Joseph and it's a little bit more obscure of A1. It is when he is naming his children, his firstborn is named Menashe. He says, because God has made me forget all my trouble. Oh yes, father's household.
- [66:23]
Brent Billings
Yep, yep.
- [66:24]
Kohelet
I think that is the image here of Yosef again kind of deconstructing the myth of the hero like it was. It was God who allowed Yosef to a, you know, have his story turn out good and not become the story of a fool who talked too much about his dreams, but also God's the one who gave him the, the space and the opportunity to enjoy it. Not everyone is able to do that. Some people, you know, chase, chase that American dream and burn out and crash out and don't get to enjoy a second of it. Many people, you know, have a lot of blessings they don't even acknowledge. And I think this is a really good way for us to one think about our own relationship to wealth and God's provision and to also really consider how subtly and smoothly sin, and not just sin, but sin that is part of the root system of oppression can be present in things as small as our words and our own attitude toward, toward others and our own things that we can enjoy. And what's really cool about this is this means you know that we don't have to do some puritanical, you know, kind of gnostic, ascetic, you know, punish your flesh so that you don't. You aren't attached to money or things like that. God does not ask that of us. God says, enjoy it. Enjoy the things you have so that they don't become idle, so that they don't become something that you look at more than people. Because as Qohelet reminds us at some point that there's only so much we can enjoy. And at some point it just becomes something that, like your translation says, it's a. It can be a feast for the eyes. You're. You're only enjoying it abstractly. In theory, there is no real enjoyment and no life to be had there. Don't struggle for the wind. Don't work for the wind. That is as far from the goodness of God as you can get, at least in the areas we've talked about today. So, anyway, that is the episode for today. Pretty straightforward. You got any final thoughts, Brent?
- [68:52]
Brent Billings
No, I agree. There's a lot here that's, that's just good advice. It's kind of surprising to me, actually, after having gone through this with such detail, that these passages are not more common than I. I think they tend to be.
- [69:08]
Kohelet
It's a lot of good stuff in here. It's a great book.
- [69:11]
Brent Billings
All right, well, we'll leave it at that. Listeners can go to berrymontsiplestroub.com to find details about our show. Check out the news page for the latest things that we have going on. We do Q&As almost every month. We have various places that mostly Marty's going to, but occasionally I show up at a, at a place or, you know, maybe you'll see some of the other people there. But all of that is found on the website. You can check your podcast app for any show notes. I don't know if we have a whole lot today. I might throw in that Rebecca St. James song I mentioned. I'm going to double check. I really think that's. That it's from this passage, but I'm going to double check that. So maybe if it's missing, you'll know, like, oh, I completely misremembered it and it's not entirely wrong. But yes, all of that is there. So thank you for joining us on the Bemoan podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.