457: Qohelet Checks the Time

Summary

Episode 457: Qohelet Checks the Time – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Podcast: The BEMA Podcast
Host/Authors: Marty Solomon, Brent Billings, Josh Bosse

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Introduction

In Episode 457 of The BEMA Podcast, titled "Qohelet Checks the Time", hosts Marty Solomon, Brent Billings, and co-host Josh Bosse delve deep into the philosophical and theological themes presented in the Book of Qohelet (Ecclesiastes). This episode focuses primarily on Chapter Six, exploring the intricate tensions between human desire, evil, and the quest for meaning within the temporal confines of life.

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Contextual Overview

Josh Bosse begins by setting the stage for the discussion, emphasizing that Qohelet approaches philosophy from a materially grounded and humanistic perspective, distinctly different from abstract Western philosophy. He highlights Qohelet's method of using metaphors and images not just as illustrative tools but as fundamental components of her rational examination of life's complexities.

"[...] Qohelet is approaching them from a materially grounded and earthly perspective, and one that is also coming from a human perspective."
— Josh Bosse [02:34]

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings add layers to this context, reflecting on how Qohelet's individuality and human-centric approach set the tone for the questions posed throughout the book.

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Main Discussion Points

1. The Tension of Wealth and Inability to Enjoy It

Brent begins reading Qohelet's reflections on wealth and prosperity, emphasizing the paradox where individuals endowed with blessings like wealth and honor still find themselves unable to enjoy them, leading to a life devoid of true satisfaction.

"A man may have a hundred children and live many years, yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he."
— Brent Billings [07:21]

Josh analyzes this by contrasting the image of someone blessed yet unsatisfied with a stillborn child, suggesting that true contentment transcends material wealth.

"This guy's got 100 kids and he's still not satisfied. And this line, this roaming of the nefesh."
— Josh Bosse [34:34]

Marty contributes by connecting these ideas to broader biblical narratives, such as the story of Jacob, highlighting the recurring theme of restlessness despite abundance.

"Jacob's the one where you're like, man, how many kids is this family going to have?"
— Marty Solomon [17:38]

2. The Futility of Endless Desire

The conversation shifts to the concept of hevel (translated as "meaningless" or "vanity"), a recurring theme in Qohelet that signifies the ephemeral and often elusive nature of human pursuits.

"Everyone's toil is for their mouth, yet their Appetite is never satisfied. What advantage have the wise over fools? What do the poor gain by knowing how to conduct themselves before others? Better what the eye sees than the roving of the appetite. This, too, is meaningless, a chasing after the wind."
— Brent Billings [26:10]

Josh elaborates on how Qohelet presents the paradox of labor and desire, where even wisdom and proper conduct offer no lasting fulfillment.

"This is a very big question: Can the path to a good future actually be known?"
— Josh Bosse [48:52]

Marty ties this back to rabbinical interpretations, discussing the futility of predicting the future and the importance of focusing on the present and past.

"It's going to be counted. Like the more words there are, more hevel. So it's ravah words. Ravah hevel."
— Marty Solomon [44:05]

3. The Unchangeable Nature of Time and Context

Brent reads Qohelet's assertion that "Whatever exists has already been named and what humanity is, has been known," prompting a discussion on the immutable aspects of human existence and the limitations they impose on striving for a better future.

"No one can contend with someone who is stronger. The more the words, the less the meaning. And how does that profit anyone?"
— Brent Billings [35:32]

Josh reflects on the inescapable influence of the past on the present, emphasizing that while one cannot change the past, understanding it is crucial for navigating current contexts.

"The power of the past is your present context right now. You cannot change the fact that that is the present context."
— Josh Bosse [38:08]

Marty adds depth by referencing rabbinic teachings on focusing back into the future, underscoring the futility of trying to control what lies ahead.

"It's the fact I get the image of shadow. The shadow is going to come and go."
— Marty Solomon [45:31]

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Key Insights

1. Human Dissatisfaction Despite Abundance: Qohelet highlights a profound human condition where material wealth and achievements do not equate to true happiness or fulfillment. This dissonance speaks to a deeper, perhaps existential, longing.

2. The Elusiveness of Meaning: The repeated references to hevel suggest that many of human endeavors are transient and transiently meaningful, prompting listeners to question the ultimate value of their pursuits.

3. Immutable Temporal Context: The episode underscores the idea that individuals are bound by their historical and present contexts, limiting their ability to effectuate radical change or achieve lasting contentment.

4. The Quest for True Desire: A central theme is the investigation into what humans truly desire versus what society or culture dictates as desirable, urging listeners to introspect on their foundational motivations.

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Conclusions

Throughout the episode, the hosts engage in a reflective and analytical conversation, weaving together biblical exegesis, philosophical inquiry, and personal insights to unpack Qohelet's complex themes. They grapple with the perennial questions of human existence, purpose, and the possibility of finding meaning amidst life's inherent uncertainties.

"And knowing that circumstances will change as they do. You know, even if we rid ourselves of all those pagan impulses, desires to never be affected by circumstances, to only have good things happen to us after we've rid ourselves of all that, there is still that longing for a kingdom that is near but far off. How do we do that?"
— Josh Bosse [50:06]

The episode concludes on a contemplative note, acknowledging the cyclical nature of Qohelet's arguments and the unresolved tensions that continue to challenge believers and thinkers alike.

"What do we want? What should we want? What should we chase after? Good questions that we can keep with us and probably have something to say to us in our modern context."
— Brent Billings [55:37]

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Notable Quotes

• "Qohelet is approaching them from a materially grounded and earthly perspective, and one that is also coming from a human perspective."
  — Josh Bosse [02:34]

• "A man may have a hundred children and live many years, yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he."
  — Brent Billings [07:21]

• "Whatever exists has already been named and what humanity is, has been known. No one can contend with someone who is stronger."
  — Brent Billings [35:32]

• "The more the words, the less the meaning. And how does that profit anyone?"
  — Brent Billings [35:32]

• "What do we want? What should we want? What should we chase after? Good questions that we can keep with us and probably have something to say to us in our modern context."
  — Brent Billings [55:37]

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Final Thoughts

Episode 457 offers a profound exploration of Qohelet's teachings, challenging listeners to confront uncomfortable truths about human nature and the pursuit of meaning. By dissecting the text with intellectual rigor and personal reflection, the hosts provide a comprehensive understanding that encourages ongoing dialogue and introspection.

Listeners are invited to engage further with the content by sharing their interpretations and questions, fostering a community of thoughtful and inquisitive minds dedicated to unraveling the complexities of biblical wisdom.

For more insights and discussions, visit [e-mail].

Transcript

[Marty Solomon]

Foreign.

[Brent Billings]

This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today we are joining Kohelet and Josh Bosse to reflect on the tension of human evil and the problem of desire.

[Josh Bosse]

Yes, indeed. But before we dive into that, as always, we are doing the classic Bay Moss style little review. Little reminder of the context of this book and what we're doing.

[Brent Billings]

Josh, let me give the context of my voice real quick.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, yeah, there we go.

[Brent Billings]

My allergies right now are so bad. Last night I went on a walk, and while I was out, my face ID could not recognize me. That is a new.

[Marty Solomon]

Wow.

[Brent Billings]

That is a new level for me.

[Marty Solomon]

Wow.

[Brent Billings]

My voice sounds a little weird. My face is like twice the size that it feels like it should be right now. I'm just so puffy and weird and.

[Marty Solomon]

So anyway, if anybody's followed Bayma for nine seasons or whatever it is that we're in, they could probably. It'd be a fun game to see if you could identify. What time of the year is it based on Brent Billings voice Sniffles, Winter. Allergies. Spring. You just kind of. You could gauge where we're at based on how Brent sounds.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah, it's a little deceptive. With our recording schedule, we're. We're about two months ahead right now. Because you're getting ready to go on the Wild, Wild west tour, Marty.

[Josh Bosse]

Ah, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Yep. So many people listening to this will have already met you by the time.

[Josh Bosse]

They hear this Wild world.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, well, Josh Bossay needs to take us on our little Bema review.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, yeah. So this book is Qohelet. It is a book of philosophy, but not standard Western philosophy. It's not abstract. Some of the topics might fit into our ideas of abstract, but Kohelet is not approaching. Approaching them from an abstract point of view. She's approaching them from a materially grounded and earthly perspective, and one that is also coming from a human perspective. In fact, if we wanted to be very anachronistic, we might even say that this is a materialistic, humanistic approach to how to live our lives biblically.

[Marty Solomon]

Sounds like it comes fresh out of the academy. Good description, Josh.

[Josh Bosse]

Nice job. Yeah, thank you. So we have to remember, as always, the metaphors and images here are not just pretty descriptions to help the visual learners grasp onto it. They are the core of Qohelet's rational mode. And similarly, when we are trying to wrap our head around where Qohelad is going, it can often be confusing if we just think of what she's saying as these propositions that she is trying to prove and move forward. That is not the case. Kohelet, like we said, what was it back in episode zero? We're more interested in questions here. We want the tension laid out for us. That's, that's what we're going to be really feasting on is not, you know, resolutions to answers, but new questions that challenge us that we have to wrestle with long after we close the book. That is Kohelet's goal, I would say.

[Marty Solomon]

Well stated.

[Josh Bosse]

So with that in mind, we're diving into chapter six. And for those eagle eared listeners who remember chapter three where we had chapter one and two exploring two sides of the tension of time and us being finite humans stuck in time, a time that's bigger than we can even fit in our heads, Chapter three was kind of the synthesis of that. It tied those two things together, but also brought out new tensions, new questions, new avenues to explore and really a new way for Qohelet to explore wisdom, which is kind of her purpose for this book. Here we are again three chapters later, and we've had this new tension of injustice. What do we do with our deep personal individual? I forgot to mention that about Kohelet. Right? She's a radical individualist.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh yes.

[Josh Bosse]

So she is concerned with all of us as individuals have this yearning for God. And yet how do we understand that with all the rampant injustice that we see everywhere, even in the places that should be the holiest, the most righteous, the most just, those are often places where not only do we see injustice and unrighteousness, but fully fledged evil, how do we wrestle with that? What do we do? And we've looked at that from the side of the oppressed and what it looks like to actually try and change things when you're not in power. And then we looked at the side of the powerful and the wealthy and why it is, I guess in Bama language we would say Empire reasserts itself seemingly automatically. And Kohele had some pretty interesting insights and that's what's going to land us right here in chapter six. So she's, she's circling back. And so we're going to be seeing some references back to, to chapter five and chapter four. And we're also even going to see some references back to chapter three as kind of the last, the last post where she kind of tied things up. So we're, we're going to see the bigger picture now as, as Kohelet sees it and with all that blathering out of the way. Brit, can you give us some dank text?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, hold on. I got some blathering to do over here.

[Josh Bosse]

Please, Marty.

[Marty Solomon]

So if I'm hearing you, sometimes I love to just listen to you and then try to restate it to make sure I'm following with you. Josh.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

Could we say that there's been at least a couple cycles here? One is the relationship that. The relationship of wisdom to time. And then this one could be the relationship of wisdom to power. Is that what I kind of heard you articulating?

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, we could say that for sure.

[Marty Solomon]

So Qohela could be cycling through wisdom as it relates to. And like you said, it's philosophical, it's individual, it's humanistic, with all the disclaimers we gave in the first episode, but. Yeah, I like that. Okay, that makes sense.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it.

[Marty Solomon]

All right, well, that's enough blathering. We can turn over to Brent. He doesn't blather, he reads.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, Brent keeps it real.

[Brent Billings]

Well, yeah, I try to.

[Marty Solomon]

Okay.

[Brent Billings]

I have seen another evil under the sun, and it weighs heavily on mankind. God gives some people wealth, possessions, and honor so that they lack nothing in their heart's desire. But God does not grant them the ability to enjoy them, and strangers enjoy them instead. This is meaningless, a grievous evil. A man may have a hundred children and live many years, yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. It comes without meaning. It departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man, even if he lives a thousand years, twice over, but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place.

[Josh Bosse]

Big statements, but also not a whole lot that we haven't heard before in at least one sense or another. We have an almost immediate reference to the end of the previous chapter with Qohelet talking about having a lot of wealth but not being able to actually enjoy it. And in chapter five, it was more focused on the perspective of power, the emptiness that that comes from. That which I think, especially in the insane abundance of the modern day, is probably a message we've heard so often that it's. On a intellectual level, there's probably even a bit of a lullaby effect. So we. We have this sense of, you know, just because you have a lot doesn't mean you Enjoy it. And we have to remember specifically, though, that the image that Qohelet used in the previous chapter was of someone who was like, you know, on the blessed side of things. Maybe not someone who is, you know, fully in power or something like that. Not a. Not a 1% type of wealthy, but more, you know, upper middle class type of wealthy, and had this image of this person starting down the path of being kind of serving that wealth, having the narrative twisted and immediately losing all their wealth and having nothing to give to their children. And that kind of being a really. I believe he used the word a grievous evil or evil sickness or sickening evil. But it's just a kind of evil that just wears us down and makes us. Oh, this. This culture around money. Like, this guy, he had a little blessing and he just had to chase it. He had to bet it all on the stock market or go into this business because he wanted to make it big. And he couldn't just be happy with this blessing God gave him, and now his whole life is ruined. So that's the. The image here of someone who isn't able to enjoy the good thing that God gave them. It's not just the. The other image Kohelet used of the people with wealth only being able to enjoy in this way. That was. I believe the image was they. They eat only in darkness and with irritation and anger. And, you know, they're. They're not actually enjoying it. It, you know, turns to ashes in their mouth, so to speak. But then Qohelet also goes and kind of gives us an even bigger image that I think calls to mind the. The single man, the lonely man of chapter four. Right. The man without a second, without son or brother.

[Brent Billings]

Right, right.

[Josh Bosse]

And then here we have the man who has a hundred children. You know, kind of similar exagger that are certainly there, you know, just to kind of make a point. And as much as I've tried to find Hermes's for these, I don't think there are. I think these are just kind of fantastical characters in a. In a hypothetical that Kohelet is creating.

[Brent Billings]

Yeah. I was trying to think about how we could relate that to something else. And it's like. Well, the typical ratio is a thousand to three, but that doesn't really break down.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Same way for this.

[Josh Bosse]

So that's a great. That's a great thought. I hadn't even gone there, but that's great. Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

Well, it doesn't work.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. No, I mean, I'm just. I'm I. My brain hadn't even gone there. So, yeah, good for you. But, yes, we have this. This man who fathers a hundred children. He lives long, but his soul is not satisfied with good things. Now, this is a different image. This doesn't say he doesn't get to eat from what he has. This isn't the image of the rug being pulled and you, you know, end up ending your days in poverty. This is someone who still has it all, but simply his soul. His. I believe the word there is going to be nefesh. That's the one that Kohelet uses a lot. Yes, nefesh. His Nephesh is not satisfied with good things. He is not full. He still wants more. And this again goes back to chapter five, the eye not being satisfied with what it sees, which. That really takes us all the way back to chapter one. Here, though, we have this strange juxtaposition where he has a hundred children, he lives this long life, but he doesn't have a proper burial. What do we make of this? That's a bit strange, right? You'd think that someone with that many children, with this big of a beit of, like, he doesn't get buried properly.

[Marty Solomon]

Well, my brain is unfortunately, in another conversation, Josh, maybe it will be serendipitous. There's another Bama group out in the land of the Wild, Wild west tour. We've been texting back and forth about the conversation about Rivkah and Rebecca.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh. Oh, yes.

[Marty Solomon]

Whose death is never recorded. There's just no mention of it. And there's this rabbinic conversation about, like, where it kind of is indirectly showing up in the text and why. But the large rabbinical conversation, like, the rabbis say, well, it's because this person was over here. That person was dead. This person was missing. That, like, there's this big family, but there's nobody there to bury her. Speaking to the. Like, they were using the word dysfunction, but I think it was taking the conversation away from where the rabbis intended. The family is not walking the path as God would have them. And because the family is not walking in righteousness, there's nobody there. So you might have a hundred kids, but if. And still not. That's where my brain. That's what it probably has. That's where my brain is.

[Josh Bosse]

I love that because I think that ties in really well with the previous sentence of the soul not being satisfied. Like, yes, there is a sense of, like, I'm. I'm still having to go out and, you know, seek adventure and travel around. I'm still looking for something. I haven't found the thing that satisfied me. So I'm just. I have to be buried on the side of a road because nothing could satisfy me. I kind of. I love that element here. And that definitely ties into not walking the path, for sure. Although that idea of walking the path is really not something that Kohelet. What's the word I want to use? She. She really doesn't reference that the same way. She doesn't really talk about partnership with.

[Marty Solomon]

God, which is kind of odd. I've noticed that before. You'd expect that to show up as it shows up in so much other wisdom literature and just never really employed here in Kohelet.

[Josh Bosse]

And also, you know, one thing that I keep coming back to as well is that, hell, it has this kind of knack for being almost prophetic in the way that she is so provocative. Like, it isn't wisdom literature that's just supposed to pave the way for, you know, building your life in a wise way. It's. It's meant to provoke us regarding these bigger questions. And when she does talk about God in a way that I would say substantially is similar to partnership, she's talking about, like, well, we don't really know what God's up to. Like, what is God up to? What is the ultimate purpose?

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Josh Bosse]

And in this case, you know, talking about someone who is never satisfied, who, like, can't enjoy the thing that God gave them, I think this certainly is an image of that. So I don't. I don't think that's a wrong way to take this, you know, translating it into the context of partnership with God. But, yeah, this idea of someone who has it all but isn't content. And I love using that idea of traveling, of, like, having to go, like, you can't even settle down and just enjoy the land that God has given you. We could even maybe parlay that into, like, a wandering in the desert image or going into exile. Like, you can't just enjoy the land God gave you, the land God blessed you with these hundred children that you have. You can't just sit and be like, hey, I'm going to raise my family. You're out doing other stuff. You're making deals, you're traveling here and there. And so you end up dying on the road, and you don't even get a good burial.

[Brent Billings]

Okay, so, Josh, I think I can. I think I can actually back up what you're just saying.

[Josh Bosse]

Ooh.

[Brent Billings]

The net kind of flips it around in the way they translate It. And they say, you know, even if he lives a long, long time, but cannot enjoy his prosperity, even if he were to live forever. So they kind of translate a slightly different way. But then there's a note on it that says. The Hebrew just says he has no burial.

[Josh Bosse]

Ooh.

[Brent Billings]

It's not about proper burial or living forever. It literally says he has no burial. So what if that's what it is? He has all of these children, he's living this long time, but he can't just sit down and enjoy it all. He's on the road, he's trying to go make a deal, he gets robbed or whatever, and he literally has no burial at all. He's just left for dead on the side of the road, maybe thrown down into a canyon. Nobody even knows he's there.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I also just noticed something else. The words here are in the feminine.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh. Oh, well, that's just juicy.

[Josh Bosse]

So maybe Kohelet is reflecting on herself and saying, oh, I can't. I just enjoy all this stuff God's given me. Wow.

[Brent Billings]

Oh, no.

[Josh Bosse]

And that also connects very well to the potential Rivka.

[Marty Solomon]

Absolutely. That's what I was thinking. Yep. That's where my brain was going, was she can see herself in. In these other stories, potentially. Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. Because it's Kavura, Hayata. There's no and. Yeah, it's exactly as you say, Brandon. It doesn't say not a proper burial. It says no burial.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh. So. And. And that's even. Because, I mean, even when, like, Rivka is, like, she is given a burial, not the traditional burial where you, you know, let the corpse fully decay and then collect the bones, like, that's the full proper burial. But this seems like maybe there is not even anything covering this person's corpse. Like, are they, like, what a contrast. They have a hundred children, but they're out on the road, perhaps totally alone, in, like, a story of the Samaritan. Like, maybe they're just lying on the side of the road set upon by thieves.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah. Well, I think even. I think you're conflating two stories, and I love it. Actually, Josh, I think you're thinking Rachel when you're talking about Rivka.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, my gosh. I was. I was thinking about Rachel, but that's.

[Marty Solomon]

Exactly to your point. Like, this whole family, Jacob, always on the run, like, he's the quint. He's. He's literally the perfect picture and example of what it feels like you're talking about here. Never able to stop does have. Like, think about the story of the family in Bereshit, Genesis. You've got like, Jacob's the one where you're like, man, how many kids is this family going to have? He's the one with a hundred kids. Like, he's the one that. And, yeah, and his mom goes through her own lack of a burial kind of whatever, but then his wife, his favorite wife goes through her own lack of a burial, all because when you're. When you're on the go, when you're. When you can't settle down because you're whatever.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

I love it.

[Josh Bosse]

I love it. That's great. So this is contrasted here in Kohlit with a miscarriage which comes in heavel and goes into darkness, and its name is covered in darkness, which is almost as if to say it gets more of a burial simply by virtue of not being known, not having to know anything. Which, again, we might remember from chapter four, Brent, with the. The whole thing about, oh, you know, those who are dead have it better than those who are alive. And those who have never been born, they have it best of all because they never had to see these horrible atrocities that are before us. All this suffering and oppression that we have to see, which, you know, especially speaking from the modern day, it's like, yeah, I kind of get that. Especially how easy it is in the modern day for us to see all the suffering and oppression as if we were there firsthand. This is Qohelet stitching these two things together. We have the wealth and power side of that tension and the oppression side of that tension. And Qohelet is kind of stitching them together in this very deft way. But let's see where she takes it, because right now this just feels like it is continuing the line of argument in a way that I would say probably feels just rather logical and straightforward to us. Right? So this. We have this image of the miscarriage that is given more of a burial than this person with this massive family. And we can assume some level of wealth. This miscarriage has not seen the sun. It does not know it yet, but it is better off than that man. And again, like, even. Even that darkness, having not seen the sun, I feel like with Kohelet and the use of the sun as this kind of boundary between heaven and earth, like, we're all under the sun, and this baby has not had to see what life is like under the sun. And therefore, it can't even be said to be worse off than this guy who has wasted this beautiful blessing that God has given him. And then we return to the image of the man in verse six, even if he lives a thousand years, twice a thousand years, twice over. Like this is such a massive, such a massive exaggeration, right? Like this is even. This is bigger than Genesis 5 numbers, right? Like this is longer than Methuselah lived by more than double. But if they. If does not see a good thing, everyone goes to the same place. What really was the difference? Here again, kind of returning to this, another phrase that Qohelet has used talking about enjoying what God has given us to see good things, which I find a really interesting and potent image because it so to me at least so clearly reflects Genesis 1 where continually it's the God sees that it's good over and over and over again.

[Marty Solomon]

Sure. Right.

[Josh Bosse]

And this also reminds me of, you know, the chapter we looked at, Marty, Chapter two, where it's, you know, compares Kohelet's desire to. For a legacy and the human desire for legacy with God's desire to create something and this question of how is it going to turn out. But God, at least in Genesis 1 sees the good in it. This person can't see any good. So this is literally like the person in chapter five who, who is working for the whip. Like they're not able to. To see anything good to the point where they almost start, we might say, you know, doing the anti story, partnering against God. Certainly not living in harmony with the. The creation God made. Certainly not someone who knows how to rest. Well, Kohelet of course ends it, you know, do not all go to one and the same place. Which again might remind us of the end of chapter three. So we have a lot of things kind of re. Emphasizing what we have already seen. Any thoughts so far? Is there anything new that's jumping out here?

[Marty Solomon]

Man, I'm at a loss for words today as well with you, Josh. She's employing this literary device of we keep circling back to the same. There's this effort and futility which is what she's obviously trying to reinforce. Like look at it from this way. Look at it from this way. Look at it from this way. The answer isn't in circumstances. The answer isn't it just keep circling back to the same dark. I mean this is dark wisdom. This is dark humor. I don't mean humor like haha comedy funny. I mean just mean like this is. There's a darkness to this. This is all destined to the same place. That's what it just feels like, listening, thinking, all the way back to chapter two, thinking of your last episodes like this just keeps hitting the same spot over and over again.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, and that's a great point. Like literarily, Qohelet is so good at making us feel like everything she said in chapter one about everything keeps turning and coming back to the same point and nothing is new under the sun. And you really get that feeling. And it's another element that I think kind of adds to maybe not the lullaby effect, but it kind of makes her rationale maybe not secretive, but fly under the radar a little bit. So one thing that I would emphasize here is that, you know, we started by talking about this guy who isn't able to eat from his well, but this second image, starting in verse three of the 2000 year old man with 100 kids, yada yada, his issue isn't that he doesn't get to eat from his blessings. It's something slightly different that we've maybe touched on before, but hasn't been center stage. This guy's problem is that he is never satisfied. This is. It's exactly what you just said a second ago, Marty, of, you know, it's not circumstances. This guy is born on the right side of the injustice problem.

[Marty Solomon]

Right.

[Josh Bosse]

We aren't even being told that he is like actively perpetuating injustice. But similar to the previous chapter, what we saw was that the root of that perpetuation of injustice is needing to have more. And that at some place. Where is it easiest to get more from? Well, from the people who have less power than you. Because the people who are more powerful than you, they're trying to squeeze a little extra bit of juice out of you, so you got to squeeze the guy below you and on and on down the line. So this person is someone who is almost like the. The person in the previous chapter who Kohelet for the first time uses an image of someone who works for the wind, not shepherding the wind, but is their labor, their struggle is almost in service of the wind, of this chaotic, uncontrollable circumstances of life that can change at a moment's notice. And so we have here someone who is so blessed in this cartoonishly crazy way, but he isn't satisfied with anything. That we can have all the blessings in the world, but still it is not satisfying to our soul. With that in mind, as long as Brent doesn't have any incredible thoughts before we move on. Well, let's move on to the next couple verses.

[Brent Billings]

Everyone's toil is for their mouth, yet their Appetite is never satisfied. What advantage have the wise over fools? What do the poor gain by knowing how to conduct themselves before others? Better what the eye sees than the roving of the appetite. This, too, is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

[Josh Bosse]

Ooh. There is a lot going on here. Just a few verses, but a lot is going on. So first we have again kind of a similar Koheleh classic, the point of our labor. The only good thing Koheleh has found in all of this, that she keeps coming back to and says, well, at least this is true. At least this is good, which is that you get to enjoy the fruit of your labor. You get to enjoy the things that God gave you. And so she sums it up here so brilliantly. All your labor is for your mouth, like just what you're doing in the world. At least make it something you can enjoy. Yet his appetite, or literally his soul, his Nephesh, is not full. There is something missing from the one good thing Kolet is found, and that is again going back to this. This appetite, this desire, this thing in our soul, in our life, in our very body, that is not full, not satisfied. There is something more which again might cast our thoughts back to chapter three and this paradox God has forged into our soul, of being trapped in this finite sphere, but having eternity in our hearts, wanting to understand God, but never being able to know exactly what God's up to. And then I'm going to throw out here that this is actually. This chunk here, I think is kind of chiastic verse seven, which we just looked at, and verse nine, we have Qohelet talking about desire. And in the center we have kind of a very deft analysis of all the tension that Kohelet has already worked through. So on the one side, we have labors for your mouth, but your appetite isn't satisfied. If we jump to verse nine, what the eye sees is better than what the soul, the Nephesh, desires. Or I think your translation put it differently, Brent, the roving of the appetite. The literal translation here is what the soul with the Nephesh walks after. So your eye sees something, and we want it. That's where desire begins. You desire something that you can get a glimpse of, and then you walk after it. And it's never as good as what you saw. You thought it would look this way, but it was not that great. You know, the grass is always greener. Then Coelhot concludes, this is hevel and shepherding the wind. But what lies in the center? Here we get some really classic Qohelet what is the yoter? The yotron, the extra, the overflow.

[Marty Solomon]

Oh yes, I forgot about the yotar. All right, I'm tracking with you.

[Josh Bosse]

What is the yoter of the wise over the fool? Which this is very much chapter one and two. Is there any benefit to wisdom? And then the second question, what does the poor person have knowing how to walk before the living? Which if we remember the tension in the previous two chapters, the thing Kohelet kept hammering on about with the the poor and the oppressed is you need solidarity. Even Samson can be overcome if you have an alliance, even it doesn't matter how strong they are. If you're yosef thrown into a pit, if it' two people in a pit, you can get out of that. So you know how to get along with people, you know how to walk, you know how to. To live in with other people. That is your strength. And the question to both of these is, you know, these are the things that Kohelet has looked at and had an answer. Carla looked at wisdom and foolishness and said, yeah, wisdom is better than foolishness. Like, you know, light is to darkness, like being able to see versus being blind. Like there's a clear advantage. And the same thing with. Yeah, with a. Is there anything that the poor can do? Yeah, they knowing how to, to walk, how to live with each other. That is what helps those who are being oppressed overcome their circumstances and liberate and find a way to change things. But the real question here kind of goes back to that same tension of the above. The tension between the miscarriage and this, you know, long lived man with the billion children. Like, is he's not satisfied? So is he really better off than the miscarriage because they're both going to die at the end. And if he's not satisfied, then how can he say he has it better than the miscarriage? Similarly here, like Kohele just laid out the advantage and the what the poor actually have. Like Kohele just talked about that, but he's asking again, what's the yotir? What's the trone? What's the. Is there something more that in living in this wise way or in building solidarity and fighting against evil and injustice, like does that actually lead to something or is it always just going to eventually crumble to dust and be meaningless on either side of this? This, you know, again, very compact. Like I think it can be really overlooked, especially with all of Kohelet's repetition. It can seem like, oh, you know, to keep reusing this word oh, she's just blathering on and on and on, circling around. But here we see just such a sharp and compact and dense restatement of these points. Like, this is a very. A very wise person. And on either side of it, we have this question about satisfaction and desire. This, I would say, is the new tension Kohelet is pulling out of this. What do we really want? Which I think when we look at these two previous tensions, desire really plays a big role in it. Okay, so you're wise. What do you want? What are you chasing after? Can you actually get what you chase after? Is what you want something that can be filled? And can wisdom do that for you? And the same thing with, like, you know, we can see lots of, you know, historically, lots of political movements, revolutions, uprising, and sometimes because maybe they don't know what they want, or maybe they want something that ends up turning around and. And biting them what it is you want, even if you know how to make things move in a better direction, Desire, and whether or not that desire will satisfy, whether what you're seeing is a mirage or whether your desire is something that can be positive. This is a very big question.

[Marty Solomon]

When I keep thinking about this conversation now, I have in my head El's conversation from her last series in Talmudic Matthew about reward. Like, I keep thinking about that now. All day today. I just keep thinking about hevel hurting wind. What is it that. Because I keep hearing in all of this, I obviously keep hearing Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, sure. Like, obviously, wisdom is better than foolishness. But ultimately, what I hear, the writer, what I hear Kohele doing is like, yeah, sure, light is better than darkness. Wisdom is better than foolishness. But, I mean, if this isn't doing something else, then what we have, hand to mouth, you know, work to food, whatever that. Like, this is. That's it. Like, that's the reward. That's the enjoyment. That last line you just said, this new tension of what do we truly desire? What is it we're truly trying to get? Because the stuff that we usually say we're trying to get, that ain't it. That's just empty. That's just herding wind. There's no reward in that. That's what keeps coming to my mind today.

[Josh Bosse]

I love that.

[Brent Billings]

And I'm looking at this in light of our guy from the beginning who has all these kids. And obviously, some people could argue with this, but, you know, a lot of people would say it's better to have kids than not have kids or whatever. Kids are supposed to be a blessing. All this stuff. It's like, well, this guy's got 100 kids and he's still not satisfied. And this line, this roaming of the nefesh.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh.

[Brent Billings]

Which it's like, yeah, that's why he got himself into his situation where he didn't even have a burial, because it's like better what the eye sees. Then he goes off and tries to get it and it's like, dude, open your eyes at home, you have a hundred kids, you have everything you could possibly desire. You lack absolutely nothing, and yet you're still roaming out, trying to find something else.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, that's such a good connection. I love that. With the roving soul. That's really, really good, Brent. Oh, well. So we're going to have. Similar to. I think how it's. Chapter three is structured, if I'm remembering correctly, is we're going to have another little repetition of this structure here at the end with verse 10 through 12 of somewhat chiastic, a loose chiastic structure. So why don't we read that and see how these two things interplay.

[Brent Billings]

Whatever exists has already been named and what humanity is, has been known. No one can contend with someone who is stronger. The more the words, the less the meaning. And how does that profit anyone? For who knows what is good for a person in life during the few and meaningless days they pass through like a shadow? Who can tell them what will happen under the sun after they are gone?

[Josh Bosse]

Here we go again. The past and the future full circle. Around and around we go. Now, here's There's a couple things in here I want to point out. First of all, so we have some interesting things. Whatever exists has already been named. That's an interesting way to put it. Right.

[Marty Solomon]

That feels very genesisy.

[Josh Bosse]

Yes, certainly Genesis 2.

[Marty Solomon]

Naming animals, Adam knowing Eve, maybe. I don't know.

[Josh Bosse]

Absolutely. And I would ask a question tied with this past and future tension. Who gets to name whom? Who named you, Marty?

[Marty Solomon]

Well, my. My parents name the person with authority. The person over typically would be how it's described. Anyway, I'm debating that all as I'm answering this on the spot, but.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. What's named the name of things happens from. I mean, you know, we talked about how the. You just referenced it. Adam naming everyone, including Chava. And it is known what man is, which I think is. Is a really a weird thing to say, but in light of, I would even say philosophy in general. I love this statement because the way I take this, it is known what man is, is like people have existed and been asking these questions before. You're not the first person to have these thoughts. You're not the first person to look around and go, hey, what the heck? This is kind of messed up. Like, this is. People know this stuff. They've heard this kind of talk before. Before they've heard. They've all heard a cynical person say this and that about the state of the world. We've all been there. So he cannot dispute with one who is mightier than he. Which, if we remember this is. If we look in the Hebrew, this phrase of one who is mightier is used back with the Samson reference. You cannot dispute with one mightier than you. And what's really interesting to me is the specific word that is used for dispute. Does anyone want to venture a guess as to what this word is?

[Marty Solomon]

I think I'd be cheating because I look at the notes.

[Josh Bosse]

Well, for all those Bama listeners, you'll know this word.

[Marty Solomon]

It's Dean, which is crazy. Like, these are not the words that you would assume. Like this. This has to be too intentional. These aren't the words you would choose unless you're choosing them intentionally to make other connections.

[Josh Bosse]

Yes. Now, I had a hard time finding a good remez for this, but I think it makes such good sense on a pichat level that I'm not even bothered about it. Although if someone finds a remez to it, I'd love to hear it. But yes, exactly as you said, Marty, these are way too specific of words. But this idea of things already exist. Life is already in motion. You can't just step in and dean society and just say, oh, this is all. We all should just start from ground zero. Like that is just. Circumstances exist as they are.

[Marty Solomon]

Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

That is the power of the past. The power of the past is your present context right now. You cannot change the fact that that is the present context. You can shape how that context changes as it moves into the future, and it will change regardless. But we can all try and affect how it changes. And maybe we might think at this point in the book that that's a little bit like hurting the wind. And that might be part of the point of this book, but that is why the tension of the past is such an obstacle. And I want us to think about this because, you know, it's very easy for us to say. We often say quite flippantly like, ah, you know, the past is the past. Can't change it. You just accept it and move on. But again, think about it in terms of your context, of our context. Every single piece of what we call our context is just the sum of everything that has happened in the past. Add it all up, it equals where we are now, and that cannot be changed. That is what makes this tension so important to look at. Because every time we bemoan our context, think about it, think about you, the listener, think about how often what you are frustrated about is the present context. Isn't it daily, isn't it every day that we are frustrated by this? And that is. That is the strong man that we cannot overcome. We cannot simply dean everything that exists. It's not possible. And then I love where Kohelet takes this. In the center of this little chiasm between past and future, there are many words which increase Havel, which make Havel very great. And what is the yoter? What is the yoter for Adam? For a human being? Is there any point to these words she says as she writes a book, which. I don't know, Marty, you're the only one here who's written a book. Is there a feeling of that when you're writing a book? Or like, oh, does any of this. Are these words gonna mean anything? Is that like a regular feeling for an author, would you say?

[Marty Solomon]

Oh, sure. Especially in the hard chapters where you're like, oh, man, this. I feel like I'm just filling up pages just to hit my word count.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, and yeah, Precisely. And the more words there are, the more we can question this. I'm a. I am a classic over talker. I'm a verbal processor, too, so it's very easy. I don't know if anyone is a listener to this. PODC is at all aware of this.

[Brent Billings]

I don't think anybody's noticed, Josh.

[Marty Solomon]

I think.

[Brent Billings]

I think we've slipped your style under the radar somehow.

[Josh Bosse]

Okay, cool. It's been. Thanks. Everyone's been hiding my problem with over talking. And I love that Kohelet is. Is asking this, like, what is there? Is all. Are all these words doing anything? Like, having all these words can increase futility, in fact, like, just talking about it. And I mean, I. I certainly have felt this at times. I'm sure people around me as I multiply words, have felt this, but it can, especially in a very serious discourse where you're actually trying to move forward, especially with cohelet style words where you just keep feeling like you're going around and around in circles. You have a thought of, like, are these words just making this more meaningless, more hevel More ephemeral. Where is the Yitron, the extra, the something more to life that we're looking for? Is it in these words?

[Marty Solomon]

I feel like we have a. Such a dangling carrot in all of these.

[Josh Bosse]

Yes.

[Marty Solomon]

Episodes. Just like, where is it? Where is the otr? And you're like, I don't know. Kohelet, tell me. She's like, not today, not tomorrow, but someday.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, and this is where I love. Where Kohelet leaves us. Who knows what is good for a person during his life, during the few years of his day or not during the few years, during the few days of his hevel life. What a. What a phrase. There they will be like a shadow, man. Actually, the translation on that's kind of strange.

[Brent Billings]

Verse 11, as the NIV translates it, the more the words, the less the meaning. But it's literally with more words, more hevel. So it's ravah words. Ravah hevel. So is the few in verse 12, during the few and hevel days, is the few opposite. The more of verse 11.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, you know, what are those words.

[Brent Billings]

Generally, like, contrasted against each other?

[Marty Solomon]

Or is that.

[Josh Bosse]

That's a good. So the.

[Brent Billings]

Like. An entirely different idea is mis par.

[Josh Bosse]

Which Is that from Sephir. Yeah, yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

It's going to be counted.

[Brent Billings]

Like the.

[Marty Solomon]

Counted.

[Josh Bosse]

The. Yeah, they're.

[Marty Solomon]

They're few because they're. You can count them. They're not many. Uncountable. They are. They're absolutely able to be counted.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. And especially because that. That the phrase after that of he will make them like a shadow. That seems to also be probably an image of insubstantial. Like it's. It's passing, you know, a shadow, you know, moves across the. The land and disappears within the space of a day that I. I honestly, even while I was writing this, I'm like. I don't really know how to use this, especially because the word for shadow can also be the word for image.

[Marty Solomon]

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.

[Josh Bosse]

So it could also be read. He will make them like an image. Honestly, it's a bit of a mystery, but with what you're pointing out, Brent, I think that's absolutely the case that we have. I. I think certainly on a pichat level, it would make sense that there's a contrast between this doubling of the word rave, which means great many a multitude, and these. These few days of a hevel life.

[Marty Solomon]

I feel like on the pashat level, it's the fact I get the image of shadow. The shadow is going to come and go. It moves, you know, a Day is only so long. The shadow only lasts for so long before the sun goes down. It's a limited amount of time. But the fact that that word choice to make, I mean, there's more Genesis language to make an image. Like you said, on a peshat level, it feels like that's that same counted mispar. Many. Many count. Like limited. Limited.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. Perhaps there is a deeper mystical level to this. There is an entire. There. There is a midrash written of Kohelet, specifically Midrash Kohelet, which, to be honest, I did not find incredibly useful for this series. But who knows, maybe there's something there. I didn't read every bit of it, but this culminates in a conclusion that's pretty straightforward. Who can declare to a person what will happen after him under the sun? Again, going back to this, you know, no one can tell you what's going to happen next. Yeah, we are. We are again back at the problem of the future. We have the problem, problem of the past, the power that is totally unassailable. And then here we have the unpierceable mystery of the future and our desire to. To have a good future. Right? That's. That's what. Isn't that what Kohelet brought up? Who knows what is good for a person during his life? During this short, short life, who knows what is good? And especially with how Kohelet has just recently talked about, you know, you can't even boil that down to, hey, how can I be successful? Because that success, it might not even be something you get to enjoy, or maybe you get to enjoy it. But as Kohelet keeps bringing up in this chapter, maybe that isn't what you actually want. Maybe that is not what you truly desire. Or maybe what you truly desire is the problem. You know, there's this new element of what is it that we really want? And I think that the way Kohelet positions this final verse, the real question is like, not just what do you want in an individual sense, but this question of, like, how can you tell someone else what's good for them in their life? Right? Like, there is also this sense of it's a mystery that isn't just you introspecting on what you want to do with your life. It's like, how can any of us chart a course to a good future? Like, is that really possible? Or is it all just luck of the dice? Is it all just in God's hands and we come right back to just enjoy what you have? I guess as much as you can. And if God blesses you, you're blessed. And if God doesn't, then you're not. Who knows? Were you righteous enough? Were you not righteous enough? Were you evil? But God let it slide and you lived fat and happy and enjoyed everything, or did God punish you for it? Like who? Who knows? Kohella covers all that. This is a big question. Can the path to a good future actually be known?

[Marty Solomon]

I've. I've taught on this some with. There's this rabbinical idea. It was taught to me out of the context of Isaiah of the behind days, talking about the future. We often translate it latter days. And there's this rabbinic idea of, well, it's the pagan impulse that tries to figure out that answers this question, can you tell the future? As a pagan impulse, like, you can't. Only God can do that. So the best we can do is work with what we do know, which is the past and our present. And so the reason, because the Hebrew of latter days really says behind days is more literally how it translates. And so there's a rabbinic conversation about you. You back into the future. Like, you have to put your back to the future so that you look backwards. You're looking back at the past. It's the only thing that you can interpret. You don't have the tools to interpret the future. You can't see the future. So you put your back to the future and then you.

[Josh Bosse]

You.

[Marty Solomon]

Which is a great sermon title.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah.

[Marty Solomon]

And then you back your way into the future because it's the only proper way to face. Because interpreting the future is something that pagans try to do and it's. It's futile. It would be like hurting wind or heavel. One might say.

[Josh Bosse]

Yes. And in fact, you know, as. As we know in, you know, little things we do, like horoscopes, they're actually also heavily in a way in that they kind of don't say much of anything at all. A lot of times they have to be so vague as to not really give you anything useful. And yeah, that's where I, I feel too that, you know, the question here that Kohele is asking, especially going back to the, you know, her central concern of wisdom is where this gets really sticky for us because there are things that we do not seeking to know the future, you know, no, oh, am I gonna live a long life? When am I gonna die? None of those questions. But just like, hey, I want to. I want to serve God with my life. How am I going to do that? Well, we can try a lot of things. Maybe some of them end up with us enjoying life. God's blessing follows us. I certainly feel that that's happened in my life, but I'm sure there are other people out there who have very different experiences. In fact, I know it. I know people who have committed their lives to ministry, and they've never found any success, and not like, you know, success in a worldly sense, but it didn't leave them in a. In a good place. And I think it's. It's important to acknowledge that because it's. It's easy for us to, you know, just point it people and say, like, oh, well, if you actually just try hard enough or pray hard enough or whatever, that it'll all work out. But for some people, it just doesn't work out. And it's not because they weren't righteous. You know, there are jobs in the world who didn't do anything wrong, and they had the worst stuff out. In fact, I think I might be jumping ahead. In Kohele, the. There's a verse where she says, you know, sometimes the. The righteous get the ending the wicked should have, and the wicked get what the righteous. What should be accorded to the righteous. And it's like, yeah, that. That happens. So outside of that pagan sense of wanting to know the future, it's just like, man, how do we move toward what a good future, good in kingdom terms? How do we do that? And I think another way of putting it, to really center it in full bama full. You know, we know Jesus and have all these things that have been given to us and revealed to us that go, hell did not have. Like, how do we actually build the kingdom in our contexts? And I don't know about y' all, but I have seen plenty of times where people. People in the church try and build kingdom in ways that may have even been a little bit backwards or, you know, have revealed deeper problems. And. And certainly I've seen lots of people that want to build kingdom but just don't know how to. And I think that tension that Kohelet is still sitting in that tension, like you said, Marty, of like, where is the drone? Where's the yotir? Where's the thing that's more than this thing? Where's the something more to life that I've been looking for? And that I think is, like, universally relatable, core to this, of what can we actually do to move toward that substantially materially? Like you said, Marty, Kohelet keeps dangling this. This Yotron in front of us. Kohelet seems to be taking us in a direction. And despite all the darkness, there does seem to be an insistence that she has that there is a way not to know our future, not to have someone tell us this is what's going to happen to us, but to. And knowing that circumstances will change as they do. You know, even if we rid ourselves of all those pagan impulses, desires to never be affected by circumstances, to only have good things happen to us after we've rid ourselves of all that, there is still that longing for a kingdom that is near but far off. How do we do that? And maybe that is the little bit about the. Maybe that's the mystical dimension of that reference to the shadow or the image. Can we actually make ourselves more like God? Like, is that. Is that really possible? Is there a way of doing that that won't be corrupted by the world or forgotten or brushed aside? Like, is there a way to really make an impact? I think that Kohelet's persistence in this should tell us that maybe she's a little more hopeful than she. Then she likes to come off. And I certainly know here at. Here at Bayma and Impact Campus Ministries, we are very confident that an impact can be made, that there is a story that we can trust in. And I feel like the direction Kohelet is heading is gonna reveal a lot. And I also say this, knowing where the next episodes are going, but he has a.

[Marty Solomon]

Cheat codes.

[Josh Bosse]

Oh, but it's. It's great. And any other thoughts? I feel like I just want to keep going round and round in the circle. It's been. Maybe. Maybe I'm sick. Maybe I've been infected with this Cohella disease where I just keep wanting to go around and around and talk about it, but I'm. I'm going to stop myself.

[Brent Billings]

Okay.

[Marty Solomon]

Josh.

[Brent Billings]

I think. I think we just got to sit in this tension and, you know, we've got six more chapters of Kohelet.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah.

[Brent Billings]

But for now, we're. We're in this spot where we don't quite know.

[Josh Bosse]

Yeah. What do we want? What should we want? What should we chase after? Good questions that we can keep with us and probably have something to say to us in our modern context. But. Yeah. Thank you guys for going on the journey, for taking this bleak trip through Kohelet.

[Marty Solomon]

I can only say I appreciate that. Thank you. Because I know how this book keeps going. Because right now I'm like, no, no, thank you. No.

[Brent Billings]

All right, well, in the meantime, as. As we wrestle with these things. You can find more details about the [e-mail] you can use the contact page. If you're like, I don't know if, if the way you guys are reading, you know, such and such passage or, or this verse or these words, I don't know, I have this different idea. If you've got some different ideas, like, feel free to get in touch with us and, and share those thoughts. Like, we, we want to get the input. We want to wrestle with this together. So you're just as much a part of that. So please contribute. And thank you for joining us today on this dark part of the journey, but we'll talk to you again soon.