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- [00:00]
Josh Bosse
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Behemoth Podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today, Josh Bosse is bringing in Al Grober Fricks to consider what is truly important.
- [00:16]
Josh Bosse
And of course, we're not merely here by ourselves, we're also including ourselves in the journey that Kohelet took. And here we are seven chapters later, literally. This is right after the halfway point of the book, right after a major inflection point where Kohelet has brought up the problem of desire. What a perfect. What a perfect little conversation to have. But first, as always, in the classic Baymas style, we need to do a little review. Not a review, but a reminder of what we're dealing with here. Because Kohelet is not just any book. Qohelet is this weird, prophetic, almost philosophical, very provocative book. I've continued to repeat that little piece of trivia that you shared. I shouldn't say trivia like it's trivial, but the mishniac discussion about if you become unclean, if you hold the book of Qohelet. But yes, Qohelet. Qohelet is not like other books. Qohelet is writing a book chiefly of philosophy and philosophy, kind of like how we write philosophy. This is not a normal wisdom literature type of book. But even though it kind of cleaves a little nearer to how we might think of, you know, kind of philosophical exploration of a concept of ideas, Colette approaches them very, very differently in that she is very concrete, very focused on material reality. She is not starting with theological assumptions. She is not trying to weave this into a religious narrative. She is just asking questions straight up as a human being who lives under the sun and talking about what happens here under the sun. And similarly, Kohelet is also a radical individualist, but we have to be careful not to then project our modern Western, individualistic culture onto her individualism, which is radical in its context, which comes from a culture that has more of a communal understanding and assumptions built into it. So she is not arriving at individualism from the same place that we are, and probably doesn't even understand it the same way we do. But what that really means for her is that she is speaking not as a Israelite who is part of a partnership with God, who has this covenant, who's a member of a people. She is talking about what she has seen, what has happened in front of her, that she's experienced. And that kind of makes this work almost a. I've used this term before, very anachronistically but kind of a materialist, humanist lens. And obviously that has very different connotations in the modern day. But I'm going to use that just to be a little provocative because, hey, why not? This is a provocative book. We have to remember all the reasoning here is experiential and concrete. These are concrete metaphors that are used, and we have to follow the flow of reasoning in that way. Otherwise, this book is a mess of contradictions that make no sense. So. So I don't like saying that a book of the Bible is a bunch of contradictions that make no sense. So I'm going to say that there's.
- [03:43]
Elle
We got halfway through. It's been weighed, it's been measured. Time to rip it on out the canon.
- [03:49]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, no, we. We got to keep it in. It's got some good stuff.
- [03:53]
Elle
Absolutely.
- [03:53]
Josh Bosse
This is going to be a fun episode. There's a lot of interesting things here. And like I said, we just came off of one of Kohelet's kind of review synthesizing chapters where she kind of ties everything back together to ask deeper, more troubling questions. And we've kind of arrived at this point of, you know, what. What are we in? Like, is anything we desire good? Can we, like, even know what is good to chase after in life? Like, is all of that just totally up to chance? Do we have any ability to live wisely, to live well, to have something? As she continually says, extra something, ma yitro. What is the extra? What is the something more to life that I feel in my heart? Is there? What is it? How do we get there?
- [04:43]
Elle
Let's find out.
- [04:44]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, let's find out. And I think this pro. This chapter, probably more than any other we've covered so far, I think gets a little closer to Kohelet's real answer, but I'll let the text do the talking. Brandon, why don't you read that opening passage there?
- [04:59]
Brent Billings
A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth. It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting. For death is the destiny of everyone. The living should take this to heart. Frustration is better than laughter, because a sad face is good for the heart. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, but the heart of fools is in the house of pleasure. It is better to heed the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools like the crackling of thorns under the pot. So is the laughter of fools this Too is meaningless. Extortion turns a wise person into a fool and a bribe corrupts the heart.
- [05:41]
Josh Bosse
Unfortunately, Brent, there is a flag on the play here.
- [05:44]
Brent Billings
Yeah, Elle looks like she has some feedback too.
- [05:46]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, specifically verse one.
- [05:48]
Brent Billings
Verse one. Okay.
- [05:49]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, you're translation said, I believe a good name is better than fancy perfume or something. Oil.
- [05:56]
Elle
Oil.
- [05:57]
Josh Bosse
Oil. It's just the word for oil. Okay, and let's start there. A good name is better than good oil. I mean, even if it did mean perfume, it. That's kind of a weird comparison, right? What's the connection here?
- [06:13]
Elle
Oil is used for lots of things, right? It's a cooking important component. You use it to moisturize, you use it to anoint, you use it to fix your hair. All of the above. Lots of symbolism in Shemin. But where are you going with it, Josh? I'm sure you have a particular story, particular moment you want to pull on.
- [06:38]
Josh Bosse
You know, I wish I had a ramez for this, but I don't actually have a remez for this one. But I'd like us to think about this in alignment with the second statement. A good name is better than good oil. And the day of death better than the day of one's birth. What do these things have in common at all? Specifically in their parallels? It's a little strange, right?
- [07:06]
Elle
Well, not that strange like on the day of the death, by the way, in the Hebrew, there's the. There. On the day of the death, all that is in discussion is your name, what was left. Right? Your body is being prepared. But that's what everyone's gathered around is. What was this person's legacy? Who were they? What were they about? What will we remember them by?
- [07:30]
Josh Bosse
Perfect. A hundred percent. That's exactly what I would have said. Even better than what I would have.
- [07:35]
Elle
Said on the same page.
- [07:37]
Josh Bosse
The good name is what's left after you die. And that exactly like you said. That's why people are gathering everything. I'm just going to keep repeating you. So then let's look at the other pair. How is good oil like the day of one's birth? If death is an ending and the good name is what's left afterwards, you could say that the day of one's birth is a beginning. And you mentioned a bunch of stuff that oil can be used for. But there's one of those that's heavily associated with beginnings.
- [08:08]
Elle
Anointing. Question mark.
- [08:09]
Josh Bosse
Anointing? Yes. You anoint what? Someone to become king. It's a new calling, a new role to step into. You anoint new priests, they even anointed the specific physical objects that went in the temple, all when they were first being used. So anointing is something that happens at the beginning and it's usually not just done for any old thing. It's usually a like, important beginning. A great calling, you might say, right? What Kohelet is saying here, so, you know, in such a tight little pair of parallel images, is that the good name that is left behind after you've lived, after you've done all this work and done all this struggle, that is much more valuable than being called to something great. And I think given everything we've been going through, you know, it's the anointing part, you know, that might appeal to us. It's exciting, it's new, it's fresh. But I think with the general perspective of Kohelet that we've accrued through this book, we can understand why and where she's coming from when she says this, that the. When you have a good name, when you're at the end of your life and people are around you, they love you, you have a legacy that isn't. Interestingly, I love this transition to talking about the good name, because before, when Kohelet has talked about legacy, especially in chapter two, the very first time, it's about big works, grand projects and things like that, which especially kind of with the literary motif of Solomon and the temple and everything that, that we can see that, you know, that has a very potent reminder of even something as grand and as holy as the anointing to become the wisest king, to build the grandest temple of all time. The legacy of that was very short lived. And in fact, in many ways, you know, if you go back to session two, and especially when Marty's talking about the different perspectives on what really caused the downfall of the, the Davidic line there, the core of the legacy is, is this temple that kind of in some ways might have brought everything to ruin, right? Whereas your own personal name, your own personal legacy, how you're known, what your name means to people, that's. That's different than a vineyard that you've raised up or something physical like that. This is important, nuanced difference that Kohelet is advancing. And so that name that you, you've worked literally your whole life, that is the sum of everything you've done in your life, that is better than simply a lot of potential. That insight is going to be what carries through the rest of this, right? It's better to go to a house of Mourning than a house of feasting. Actually, Elle, do you have a thought on this second verse here?
- [11:27]
Elle
I do. It's that it doesn't say house of feast, which would kind of be upsetting to me in a. Which, I mean, who cares if I'm upset? But thinking about the whole narrative of what's happening in Tanakh and what's happening prophetically, and then the end of Revelation, like, should. If this is true, shouldn't we be like, all of the world to come, all of eternity, just be a big funeral? However, it doesn't say feasting, which, again, is the image pulled out by all the prophets. It says house of drinking.
- [12:03]
Josh Bosse
That is true.
- [12:04]
Elle
Much more like it's better to go to a funeral than to a bar. So. Shifts how it feels to me.
- [12:09]
Josh Bosse
Yes. And. And I. I don't think that's a bad distinction to make. But I also think that what Kohelet is getting at here is not about, you know, whether feasting is. Is good or bad. Because again, Kohelet, though, the one, the single thing that she keeps coming back to, like, well, at least this thing is good, is enjoying the things we have. And that, to me, is the heart of, you know, the feast, which Marty has said many times, you know, we have to party. And I don't think what Qohelet's talking about here is that because if we take verse two in a vacuum, you know, better to go to a place of mourning than a place of joy and happiness and feasting, because that's where we're all going. So the living should focus on that. Like, that's just kind of like. Like you said, kind of dour, like, oh, is heaven just going to be one long funeral? Oy vey. But also, it's a little bit of a faulty argument, like, oh, we're supposed to only think about death because that's just where we're all going to go. But that's where. If we have the context of the previous verse, where the image of death is not about focusing on the saddest, most depressing things, it's about you're having a good name, right? Then when we're talking about when we go to a house of mourning or a house of feasting, and specifically the last part of this verse, taking it to heart, putting it in our consciousness, what Qohelet is saying is that when we're feasting and we're celebrating, it's kind of like what you were getting at with the difference between just saying a house of feasting and A house of drinking, more specifically, is that we often can celebrate rather frivolous things, sometimes even negative things. You know, that can be hard to tell sometimes, especially when you're in a joyful mood, you're just like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we're just having fun. Come on, join the party. And when you're in the house of mourning, what is left behind, as you said so perfectly earlier, that's the good name. And I think that this isn't talking about, you know, oh, it's wrong to go to a bar. It's stupid to go to a bar. But in terms of the larger question, the larger hunt that Kohelet is on, to understand wisdom, to understand how we're supposed to live, how we're supposed to get something more out of life, paying more of our attention, giving more of our heart to what's important after you're gone, what's left behind.
- [14:43]
Elle
Right.
- [14:44]
Josh Bosse
That is so much weightier, so much more of a North Star than just what is something that can be celebrated? Because, yeah, we can celebrate frivolous things that won't last very long, but there's also lots of good things to celebrate. It's not that we shouldn't celebrate them, but for Qohelet's purpose here, for looking for that North Star, that deep truth, you will see it more clearly at a funeral than at, like, a birthday party or something.
- [15:15]
Elle
There's more temptation to not be present to what's real in celebration. Because I agree with you all through the text, we have commandments to be rejoicing. Rejoicing at all times.
- [15:28]
Josh Bosse
Yes, exactly.
- [15:30]
Elle
The text is not set against us rejoicing, however, because for most of us, not all of us, most of us, rejoicing feels like, yeah, ride the vibe. Everything's good. It's easier to use that as a block for what is happening that is real. And what is real is somebody's legacy. It's also real that someone's getting anointed. Right. Or birthdays should be celebrated. But it's easier just to kind of be numb to what's happening when you're focusing on celebration than on mourning.
- [16:02]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, but if we think of anointings, like, you know, if you were there the day Saul got anointed, you probably won't understand Saul as well as if you were there on the day of Saul's funeral. You'll understand more about what he meant on the other end, and not just because time has passed, but because, yeah, when. When you're celebrating something exactly like you said, you Want to look past those things. Someone had a new baby. You want to celebrate it? You aren't going to say, oh, well, that baby looks ugly. You know what I mean? Like no one ever says, oh, you have an ugly baby. Like those are the. And you know, nor should they.
- [16:36]
Elle
You'd be surprised.
- [16:37]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I was going to say, don't they?
- [16:39]
Josh Bosse
That's true. I don't know. I have a very cute baby, so maybe I'm. Maybe I'm going to. Maybe I'm not as aware of that issue. I'm very privileged.
- [16:51]
Elle
Brent and I's kids are also adorable. I just like the universe.
- [16:54]
Brent Billings
Yeah, well, and having kids has made me appreciate babies more. But I've always thought babies are kind of weird looking.
- [16:59]
Josh Bosse
Let's see. There you go. There you go. Babies are weird looking. But you don't say that when you're meeting someone's baby for the first time or saying anything.
- [17:06]
Brent Billings
Probably not.
- [17:07]
Josh Bosse
And one other thing we should remember too, going back to chapter three, is that this is happening in an exilication context as well. So, you know, I would say especially in an exila context, rejoicing is really important. Like you got to be able to not be depressed about the awful circumstances of your life and all the things that you've lost. But in terms of, again, Kohelet's very specific agenda, what is left behind after we die, that is the good stuff. That is actually going to potentially answer some of these intractable questions. This is where I think, you know, things are getting interesting. We have kind of a parallel of this verse down in verse four about the heart of the wise is in the house of mourning. The mind or the. The heart of the fool is in the house. And this time it says, my translation puts it house of pleasure, but it's literally the house of Simcha, the house of joy. Again, this is like, it's not that it's bad to be joyful. In fact there are, you know, like Marty said, one of the things that I love about his teaching back then is, you know, we're told to, to party and sometimes if we don't party, God's like, all right, I'm going to kill you. You got a party. You have to, you have to be joyful now. And the difference here is not that like one is good and the other is bad. Again, this is not like Kohelet's book of morality. That is not what the book has been about at all. It's about this question of the heart of the wise person is in the house of mourning. And I think at this point we can see that symbolically that means the wise person is thinking, how is this going to affect my good name? You know, is it really worth throwing away my good name to do. To take this shortcut, to do this, do that? The mind of a fool, the heart of a fool is in the house of pleasure. What's going to feel good next? Not thinking about that. Longer term consequence.
- [19:09]
Elle
I'm still mad at the equation of joy with pleasure and what happens when we switch those words out. I know it's not my job to drag this whole episode into translation land, but the thing that God's people come away with if they hear the heart of the fool is in the house of pleasure versus the heart, it's very upsetting to me.
- [19:30]
Josh Bosse
But I would also say, you know, if you want to know God's feeling about pleasure, you know, think about what he named his guard. Anyway, moving on. It is better to listen to the rebuke of a wise person than to listen to the song of fools. I feel like, again, this is kind of the same point, right? You know, it's. It's harder to hear rebuke, but again, this isn't just rebuke in general. This is the rebuke of a wise person. That's better than listening to the song of fools, which again, it doesn't say, you know, cut all the fools out of your life, they're toxic. That's not what this is saying. This is saying when a fool is making a song and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, Josh, you're so cool because you did this. And I'm just going, yeah, I am so cool. Like, just, you know, you don't have to. You don't have to hate them or denounce them or do violence to them or anything. Just don't take it to heart. The same way it's easy to say when someone who's wise, who has a good name, who you respect, when they rebuke you, it's hard to hear that when someone is singing a song that makes you feel good, it's really easy to get into that. And there's nothing inherently wrong with either of those. Again, this is about what we're letting into our heart and mind in terms of this bigger question of a good name. Are we gonna let the fact that in high school my nickname was like the cool guy, Is that gonna be the. I base my life around troubling. We've all probably seen that it doesn't end very well. Whereas someone who maybe made some mistakes or had to hear some harsh words and actually listen to them, you're going to come away a better person. You're going to have a better name at the end of the day. And this, I think, is what Kohelet's going through here, is that wisdom is something that will. It's not inherently painful. I think that that is kind of going back to your mixed feelings, Elle, about how our culture, particularly our Christian culture, talks about joy and pleasure in these things and desire. Even if we're going to get really far out and to the theme of the episode, it's not that one is bad and the other is good. It's that if we're looking for what is a more stable source of wisdom, a sure place that we can. That we should pay more attention to, it's telling us that it's the hard things that wisdom is not going to shy away from. Wisdom is going to say, okay, I know this is hard, but it's good for me. You know, I'm going to take my medicine, so to speak. And that seems to be how we're getting from just saying, oh, a good name, good oil. We're going down. And as it goes through, we're going to see that that theme kind of rise up as we get away from just this, oh, is wisdom better than foolishness kind of dichotomy?
- [22:27]
Brent Billings
Is it kind of like a consideration of what has the final word? Yeah, like, oh, I could go. I could go to a party at Josh's house, and it's like, oh, he throws a great party. But then at the end of your life, at your funeral, then there's going to be accounting of all the things that you've done. It's like, oh, that wasn't just me. Like, Josh knew how to, like, celebrate everybody. That's who he was. Or I could go there and be like, yeah, you know, things were good at the beginning, and then. And then he kind of got selfish at the end or whatever. And obviously, there's. There's the etiquette that you were talking about earlier, but at the end, it's like, okay, when. When everything's said and done and we take the final accounting, that's. That's, like, the real substance.
- [23:09]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [23:09]
Brent Billings
That's the thing that gets the final word versus that one time that I had that one experience with the person.
- [23:16]
Josh Bosse
Exactly. That's a really great way of putting it. And this is where, you know, it's interesting thinking back, because Kohelet's been talking about, you know, wisdom bringing grief and things like that. But this is another level. And it. And it is to go back to that really good analogy, Brent, of, you know, what has the final word. And two different.
- [23:37]
Brent Billings
Okay, no. No songs of praise here.
- [23:39]
Elle
I don't submit your ballads about Brent into Bama Disciples.
- [23:45]
Josh Bosse
I'll start by criticizing Brent, and then everything I say will be valid. No, and see, that's the kind of, like, legalistic way of taking this. Like, okay, everything should be hard. Nothing should be fun.
- [23:56]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [23:56]
Josh Bosse
It's the question of. And this is exactly what we talk about when Marty talks about, like, oh, we're supposed to know how to party. Well, like, this is the substance of it. Is. Is it a good party or is it a frivolous party? Well, one easy way to check that is to check in at the end of someone's life and say, oh, were those all just little flings? Just little good times that never really meant anything beyond that? And these friendships were only surface level. And no one's really here at the funeral. Or is it like you said, everyone's there. Everyone was like, nope, this person brought the presence of God in the party. That's a totally different thing. And that is what Kohelet's talking about. That's not the kind of party you should be avoiding or anything like that. This isn't this anti party, anti fun. Everything good is actually painful. Like, that's not what's being said here. So where this gets interesting, we kind of seem to be, like, kind of circling around the same idea, seeing it from a couple different vantage points. I won't get into every single one. To me, the. The real turning point came in verse seven, where we left off. I forget if your translation had a different take on this verse. Brent and Elle, feel free to jump in on this one, because this one' going to be important. But verse seven, for oppression makes a wise person look foolish, and a bribe corrupts the heart, which. Actually, I don't know if I like this translation here, because that word for look foolish is an L. You may remember this from our first episode. This is the word that throughout Kohelet is often translated as madness, but also can include or. Its primary meaning is for praise. Maybe more generally is just referring to an ecstatic state. It's the word hillel. A deep sigh from L. What are your thoughts here?
- [25:52]
Brent Billings
Okay, couple of housekeeping things first. Josh, what translation are you looking at?
- [25:56]
Josh Bosse
I'm looking at the nasb.
- [25:58]
Brent Billings
Nasb. Okay, so NIV has the. That first word is Extortion. Ah, Net also says oppression, but then it has a footnote and says there's debate. And it cites a couple of different sources for either side of that oppression.
- [26:12]
Josh Bosse
And extortion, some kind of exploitation. Whether it's specifically extortion or general oppression or whatever. From what I've seen, exploitation in general makes sense. And I, I would, I, I kind of like the, the word oppression there. That's how we were using it. That's the same word back from. What was the chapter four.
- [26:34]
Elle
I believe I'm team oppression. Just in general. Just kidding. For this word, I'm team oppression. It's like squishing somebody into the mud. So oppression feels right for me in that it has the word press in it, right?
- [26:52]
Josh Bosse
Oh yeah.
- [26:52]
Elle
But with the like, sometimes it means praise, sometimes it means go mad. That feels like such a huge bifurcation. And we talked about it before, I'm sure. But there are 160 times it comes up in the text and only like 5 of those 160 do they go with go mad. Is there a natural bridge where you can say, well, maybe it's both? I would say only if you're willing to translate like all of those psalms where it's like praise ye the Lord all his saints. If you want to change that to rave unto the Lord all you saints, then I feel okay, because raving has like a gone crazy connotation to it. But otherwise I feel like it's being inconsistent to 5 out of 160 say it's actually, it's actually about madness.
- [27:46]
Josh Bosse
Sure.
- [27:46]
Elle
Now if you leave it at praise, how much more offensive and provocative and potentially wise is Kohelet's statement. Oppression makes the wise praise. I love that. I love the provocation there to be like. It's not that they're praising their oppressor, it's not that they're praising the fact that they are an oppression, but is there a spiritual discipline of still choosing to praise God in the midst of the presence of evil and oppression?
- [28:20]
Josh Bosse
Interesting.
- [28:21]
Elle
Going back to Psalm 23, and I absolutely think that there is.
- [28:25]
Josh Bosse
Okay, very interesting. So the other thing that strikes me here, that's also very interesting or at least linguistically to me, I don't know if I've ever seen this before in the text. The other side of this verse is about bribery, destroying the heart.
- [28:44]
Elle
I wouldn't say it says destroy either.
- [28:46]
Josh Bosse
Okay, okay.
- [28:47]
Elle
So what I translate avad wander.
- [28:50]
Josh Bosse
Oh, interesting.
- [28:51]
Elle
It just says matana. So a gift makes the heart wander.
- [28:54]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, yeah, Matana Gift that makes sense. But the idea of the. The core idea of, Of a, you know, either being wandering or lost in that sense, not necessarily destroyed. I mean, it's interesting because I had never seen that specific construction. I guess if you take destroyed out of the running, then that's different to.
- [29:17]
Elle
Lose yourself via wandering. So it's not just like a nodal who wander or lost type wandering, but like, you are off the path and off the edge of a cliff.
- [29:27]
Josh Bosse
Right. Like, you are lost in the desert. Right.
- [29:29]
Elle
So somebody giving you something to try to make you feel better in the midst of your oppression isn't actually as helpful. You're just like, here, feel better. We wrote you a card or.
- [29:41]
Josh Bosse
Interesting. Okay.
- [29:43]
Elle
I think Kohelet is getting at saying the wise are able to encounter oppression and spiritually engage in transformative alchemy of saying, I'm going to stand against this being squished into the mud, and not necessarily by, like, punching the person trying to squish me, but rather keeping my heart safe and rejoicing through the activity of praise of God that there's something transformative and life giving in praising God. And instead when we say, like, hashtag self care day, all you're doing is taking away from what's real. Just like if we dip into the bar on the way to the funeral, we're taking away from what's real, which is grief and loss.
- [30:36]
Josh Bosse
Okay, yeah, yeah, I. I can see that. And you know what? The. I, I was. I was gonna try and wrestle things back toward where I was heading because I, I saw that parallel between, like, I, I like that image of a destroyed heart and oppression and just how, like, oppression can make wisdom look crazy. But. But you've won me over. I. Like, I would say, though, let me ask this and see if we can find some common ground. I don't think it's inappropriate or outside of the bent of this passage to maybe translate gift as a bribe. Like, sure. Because in line with the whole. Kohelet's whole reasoning here of having a good name being the most important thing when you're. When you're in exile and you're a wise person, you say, you know, like, it's okay, we're gonna get through this and we're gonna. We're gonna resist this. This is. We're gonna make our name here doing this, like, standing up to empire. And on the other hand, you will lose that if you, if you take the bribe. If you are just like, oh, yeah, you know, let's just, just. Yeah, go, go Babylon. Sure, I'll wear the jersey. I'll change my name, I'll do all this stuff. You lose yourself.
- [31:58]
Elle
Right.
- [31:59]
Josh Bosse
But at the same time, I think you're right that on the softer side of that translation, looking at it as a. As a gift, as like, you know, coping with oppression through creature comforts, like, I want to be careful here because I. I don't think they're again, going back to this. Like, there isn't anything wrong with joy or comfort or anything, but.
- [32:20]
Elle
Or self care. Right?
- [32:21]
Josh Bosse
Or self care. Yeah, exactly. Can easily. Just like, you know, the house of pleasure. It's easy for those things to carry us away to man. Honestly, your translation is working even better. All right.
- [32:32]
Elle
I think they both work, though.
- [32:34]
Josh Bosse
Well with that. Brent, let's read this next chunk, which I think will just. This will all be fitting along the. The theme that we've been talking about of wisdom being willing to. To lean into what is difficult. So why don't you go ahead and take it away?
- [32:50]
Brent Billings
The end of a matter is better than its beginning, and patience is better than pride. Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools. Do not say, why were the old days better than these? For it is not wise to ask such questions. Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing and benefits those who see the sun. Wisdom is a shelter, as money is a shelter. But the advantage of knowledge is this. Wisdom preserves those who have it. Consider what God has done. Who can straighten what he has made crooked. When times are good, be happy. But when times are bad, consider this. God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future.
- [33:33]
Josh Bosse
Well, there is a lot we could talk about in here, but you don't.
- [33:37]
Brent Billings
Have any notes, so let's move on to the next verse.
- [33:40]
Elle
I think this is the first section of Qohelet that I felt like, man, it would be good to, like, memorize. The central point from which Scripture seems to orient discipleship is toward wisdom and into wisdom versus. I don't know what we are probably raised with in our reformed worlds. We are all reading Francis Schaeffer and hearing about, like, worldviews. We need to be able to identify worldviews, which is a component of wisdom, but it's not the central. It's not centrally what Scripture seems to be worried about, which is our pursuit of wisdom. What does that look like?
- [34:18]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, and. And to be honest, I feel like, you know, I've brought this up many times where, you know, a lot of times when Kohelet gets into kind of spitting some proverbs at us. It's kind of tongue in cheek. There's a layer of irony here. Right. This chunk feels very earnest. And that's where I think your observation, like, oh, this would just be good to memorize. Like, yeah, this is. And. And I think that if we break it down, you know, there is kind of a. It kind of reminds me of, like, watching people rock climb. Like, it's not a straight line, but there is a methodical movement between, like, these. These moments of. Of tension. And we. We kind of start with that, you know, hearkening back to the. The very beginning of the chapter. Like, you know, the. The end is better than the beginning. Like, yep, the beginnings are exciting, of course, but it's better to be at the end. It's better to be. Be patient than arrogant. And I like that in the text, these are both. They use the word ruach. To be long of spirit, Eric, is patience rather than to be hot, like lifted up, arrogant or prideful, as. As your translation said. And then after that, don't be eager. And that word eager has come up a couple times now, and the root meaning is to be like trembling. So it's like almost like kind of. Of being hasty out of nervousness, almost. Don't be hasty in your spirit to be angry. Like, don't be just like, ready to get angry at someone, like, leaning into difficulty. But now in a very different way. You know, before it was about go to these places that aren't fun to observe and see what really matters, what actually withstands the test of time and lasts. Then that's. That's why I love. In verse 10, when Kohelet just kind of totally brushes aside that, like, don't ask why things used to be better. Like, that's. That's. I love the phrase. It's not in the NASB they translate it. It is not for wisdom that you ask about this.
- [36:19]
Elle
Yes, and very good. It imagines wisdom as a location from which we move and see, which I think is helpful for looking at the House of Morning stuff as well.
- [36:32]
Josh Bosse
That's really nice. Yeah. And I like, too, this going into the next verse where we start to get practical. And this is where on one level, if we haven't been paying attention, this kind of just seems like it's like, yeah, it's good to be smart. It's good to have money. It's good to be a winner. Oh, yeah, sure is. But it starts by saying wisdom along with an inheritance, with a With a portion. And then after it, it says when it says an advantage to those who see the sun. That word advantage, which this is often translated to is yoter yitron, the extra, the overflow, the little extra something, abundance. That when you have wisdom along with an inheritance. And when we hear inheritance, there's probably a pashat level at which this is talking about money, especially given what is said shortly after this. But remember the. When do you get an inheritance?
- [37:31]
Elle
Death.
- [37:33]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, right after someone dies. And again, an inheritance is also something that is left behind after death. And I wonder if this is maybe alluding to not just. Not just an inheritance of money, but you know, reminding us of the other things that are left behind after death. Our legacy, our good name. And this is where I think there is kind of a very like nuanced play here in talking about money and material wealth in that we just came off of like, lean into the hard things, don't try and cause trouble. Don't look to be getting angry. Don't put yourself above other people. Just all this like very rapid fire like you said, El, just a lot of really dense good stuff. And then saying like, you know, wisdom is also good when you have something to build off of, whether that's material wealth or maybe, you know, if your parent was someone who had a good name. That's also a great thing to start with because, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's exceptions, but usually that's is probably a pretty good sign for you if you're their kid. Probably means you had a great parent. And that is something that can give you a little, A little oomph when you see the sun. Like these things work well together. But then we see the turning of this, that and this. El, I'd like your thoughts on because we have the use of the word shadow throughout verse 12. Wisdom is in the shadow as money is in the shadow. And you know, shadow can be used to talk about protection and provision. A lot of times we overlook that, but did you have any thoughts about the use of it there?
- [39:24]
Elle
Yeah, I like it there. The picture is like the wings of the prayer shawl being brought into the household in a wedding. Another big event, BTW's birthday, death day. Wedding day. So what are you being protected by? In the shadow of God we were created, right?
- [39:46]
Josh Bosse
Yep.
- [39:46]
Elle
So. So yeah, I like, I'm fine with. I'm looking at the rsv, so I'm not sure what Brent said, but protection is okay with me.
- [39:57]
Brent Billings
Shelter is what the NIV had.
- [39:58]
Elle
Sure, yeah, sure.
- [40:00]
Josh Bosse
Nothing wrong with that here, though. Kohelet makes a distinction that wisdom has a little bit more. Because money won't keep you alive. Wisdom will keep you alive, which is an interesting thing, because a lot of times when we think of money, we're like, well, actually, my money does keep me alive, thank you very much. But the word here is like the. The way that it uses the word to. To, like, preserve life is in a more active sense. It's not like, oh, this can buy you bread, which will extend your life, because, you know, eat food. This is saying, like, wisdom will actually give you life. It is a source of life. Money is not a source of life. It is something that can be exchanged for things that we get life from. But money by itself doesn't do that. We talked about that in chapter five. You know, it's a feast for the eyes. That's the most you can say about it. And then we get back to this image that Kohelet has used. Actually, I think back in chapter one of what God has bent cannot be straightened. That time only flows one way. You get older, your spine gets bent, your body breaks down. That cannot be changed. So when God gives you good things, like enjoy them, rejoice. And kind of just like the example you gave at the beginning of this chunk, Elle, about being grounded in God's love and generosity, even when a disaster happens, that when you come upon that disaster, remember that God is the source of both. You know, kind of a job like the Lord gives. The Lord takes away that God is. Is. Is up to something that we can't fully know. And I. I love that Koheleh just kind of leaves things hanging here. Doesn't quite resolve it.
- [41:50]
Elle
The one little note that sparks my curiosity is literally, it says, see the deeds of the Elohim, not Elohim, for who can make straight what they have made crooked. And so that's just interesting to me when you're thinking about who is making the crooked straight and who's making the straight crooked, is that God doing that? It's the Elohim.
- [42:16]
Josh Bosse
Well, so this is where I think when he talks about that, it's the image of us trying to reverse time because the image of. Of not being able to straighten what has been made crooked. Okay, at least Alter says that this is an image of, like, you know, being hunched over in old age and that you can't. You can't undo time.
- [42:37]
Elle
Interesting. I like that a lot. I'm just looking at it from a heizer perspective about. And then thinking about, like, the origin of evil.
- [42:46]
Josh Bosse
So that is interesting. I wonder, man, that makes me curious about how many other times? Because the previous verse. Yeah, verse 13 and 14, both have ha. Elohim. And that makes me wonder if. Is that true throughout the whole of this book?
- [43:04]
Elle
Whole ding dang thing.
- [43:06]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, it looks like it. It's in the previous chapter anyway. Well, that would definitely get me off track. Prince, read some text.
- [43:14]
Elle
Save us.
- [43:16]
Brent Billings
Well, in this meaningless life of mine, I have seen both of these. The righteous perishing in their righteousness and the wicked living long in their wickedness. Do not be over righteous, neither be over wise. Why destroy yourself?
- [43:31]
Elle
What's solid life advice?
- [43:34]
Brent Billings
Do not be over wicked and do not be a fool. Why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.
- [43:46]
Elle
Guys, you know, all those times I've made mistakes, it's just because I'm making sure not to be over righteous or over wise.
- [43:52]
Brent Billings
That's right.
- [43:53]
Josh Bosse
That's right.
- [43:53]
Elle
You're welcome.
- [43:54]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. I wonder why this book was so controversial.
- [43:58]
Brent Billings
All right, what do we have in verse 18 here? Whoever fears the gods. Does it say that hymn?
- [44:05]
Elle
Nope. That one's God.
- [44:06]
Josh Bosse
I want this Elohim.
- [44:08]
Elle
Almost like. Like a consistent translation would be helpful, but alas.
- [44:13]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. Okay, so let's. Let's get into this because this is a little interesting. Especially, you know, call it coming out strong with my. My days of heavel, My days of ephemeral passing. Barely their life. Which feels very exiley to me now. I'm not sure. I don't know if you're gonna keep the laughter in bread, but anyway, as Ellen, this. I don't even know.
- [44:46]
Brent Billings
Why would I.
- [44:47]
Josh Bosse
Not the. The. Well, I laughed out loud while you were reading because. Oh, they. I see what you mean. They make a translation choice. So, anyway. Anyway, Elle, based on what you said earlier about how eager sometimes translators can be to choose the word destruction. Oh, yes, I noticed one instance of this that is out of place in verse 16, where it says, do not be excessively righteous and do not be excessively wise. And yours, your translation, Brent, says, why should you destroy yourself?
- [45:27]
Elle
Shamaim here technically means to stun, to become numb. And so again, the immediately hitting the button for destruction.
- [45:38]
Josh Bosse
That's pretty wild to me. Especially though, because it's like, how. How would being too righteous and wise destroy you? I. I don't get the logic there at all.
- [45:48]
Elle
It feels like intensity level. If you're holding the lever on translation, it's like, you know, forward boosters and Star Trek or whatever. And then like the front for Destroy versus you do get numb if you are, you know, if somebody's suffering and you want to wield that thing. The provocative thing we talked about earlier, about how it's good to praise God in the midst of oppression.
- [46:13]
Josh Bosse
Okay, yeah.
- [46:14]
Elle
You are being numb to somebody else's suffering. You are being like, well, you know.
- [46:18]
Josh Bosse
What you should do?
- [46:21]
Elle
It's not helpful. That's not what we see Jesus do.
- [46:23]
Josh Bosse
Sure.
- [46:24]
Elle
When he's walking around. And so numbness definitely makes sense. And I think people do do that all the time. Be like, oh, I know the right thing to do. And that means that I don't need to be present with any emotions because those just aren't helpful.
- [46:37]
Josh Bosse
I. I also like taking it in the astonishment route where it's. It's like, if you are so righteous and all you do is think about, you know, the Bible and Jesus every day, and then you get out into the real world and just your brain is fritzing out because you're like, how. How can there be such evil and meanness in the world? And it's like, yeah, wake up there. This. This is normal. And I. I think that's at least how I couch this of. And especially coming from kohele, you know, Mrs. Mrs. Wisdom all the dang time, like, saying like, hey, even I know that. It's like. And I think your example is also a great way to take this of. You know, it's not always a good idea to say the wise answer to tell someone, like, how this is the wise thing to do. Because, you know, sometimes it's like, yeah, that. Not. Not right now, not the right time. And. And that idea of being numb to. Or on the other hand, being overwhelmed and stupefied by, you know, being like, I just can't understand why anyone would lose their temper and ruin their life. Like, that just doesn't make sense to me. And it's like, well, you know, other. Other people have different experiences than you. Not everyone has the same privileges as you. And so not being aware of that is not great.
- [47:59]
Elle
A trap. The initial phrase there for what gets translated, righteous over much. It really says tzadik, haravah or haraveh. So that's like the big guy, right? Same that we get rabbi from Great One. Oh, Great One. I think there is often the compulsion to be like, I'm going to save the day by telling this person the one thing that I know they need to hear. It ends up not actually Being the righteous or wise thing to do. So.
- [48:33]
Josh Bosse
Yep. So another way to say it is like, you know, is. Is being, you know, don't. Don't be so righteous that you destroy your own family or ruin someone's day or something like that.
- [48:46]
Elle
Yeah. Because you want to be seen as the great wise person. Like you're hoping someone will pull you aside later and be like, wow, oh, that was such a wise thing to say.
- [48:55]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And then I like, on the other side, she says, don't be. Also, you know, kind of uses the same phrasing. Don't be excessively wicked, Rabe. Don't be greatly wicked. And what I love is that, you know, if you were, you know, kind of in the Hebrew literary mindset and you know how parallelisms work, you would expect, you know, to have kind of a perfect. You have a little perfect square here. Don't be excessively righteous. Don't be excessively wicked. Don't be overly wise. And what would you expect to come after that? Don't be overly foolish. But that's not what Qohelet says. She just says, don't be foolish.
- [49:37]
Elle
Stop it.
- [49:38]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, don't be foolish even a little bit. Not, Not. Don't be overly foolish. Just don't be foolish. Why should you die before your time?
- [49:46]
Brent Billings
This word for overly righteous, overly wise, Overly wicked is some kind of yeter. Yoter, Whatever.
- [49:55]
Josh Bosse
Yes. That you caught this detail. So when it says don't be overly wise, it says don't be yoter wise.
- [50:04]
Brent Billings
Like, don't leave any wisdom left over.
- [50:07]
Elle
Don't be spilling over the edges of your cup with your wisdom. It's the extra is the way he's been talking about it.
- [50:14]
Josh Bosse
It's the same image basically, of like, don't, don't, don't overdo it. Have some moderation. But at the same time, yeah, it's. I, I feel like, you know, Kohella doesn't throw around the word yotir lightly. Like I, I feel like there is maybe a little like kind of a self awareness of like, like, because that's this whole verse, right. Of like, you have to be a little self aware. Don't be, don't be such a goody two shoes that you're alienating people around you or that you lose connection with the real world. And don't just be on constant, you know, wisdom mode where you're just a proverbs machine. Like, that's not, that's not what we're called to be. And I feel like her slipping in this Yoter word which always calls back to, like, her kind of white whale of, you know, philosophically trying to find this, like, you know, philosopher's stone of, like, what's the. What's the utrone of life? I wonder if she's maybe kind of lightly poking fun at herself a little bit there. And what I love about this, though, and I want to hear all your thoughts. What does it mean for her to then say, it's good that you grasp one while not letting go of the other. And the one who. For the one who fears God emerges with both.
- [51:40]
Elle
I'm curious about whether that's about part B of verse 17, when it's like, what are the two things she's referring to? Is it being wise and a fool? I'm curious about whether that's in reference to why should you die before your time? Like, you will have a death. You do have an appointed time. No one can get that out of your hand. But if you fear God, you will emerge from death and from your appointed time. Yeah, run that. And that won't be the end for you.
- [52:11]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, I could totally see that. That. What about you, Brett? You got any thoughts?
- [52:15]
Brent Billings
Nothing productive, I don't think.
- [52:17]
Josh Bosse
Okay. What I. What I feel like here is part of the idea of, you know, saying don't be, you know, excessively wicked is also kind of a. A willingness to admit that we all have a little bit of that in us, you know, which as Christians, shouldn't be hard for us to say. And I. I think, though, again, this is. I feel like this is a big humility check of, like, hey, if. If you are taking pride in the fact that you're just always on point with your wisdom and your righteousness, knock it off, and also tone it down with the wickedness. And I think kind of our reaction is supposed to be like, but I'm not wicked. And Kohelet's kind of saying, yes, you are. And just like, you know, we all have our. Our toxic trait or, you know, we do something that is not always constructive and, in fact, is sometimes a little destructive. Sorry, L. I had to say that there. But, you know, we're supposed to be able to. To hold on to both of these things and understand that, like, yes, I'm trying to be wise and I'm trying to be righteous, but I'm also going to fully own the fact that sometimes I can be a piece of crud and that we're. We're not supposed to, like, try and turn a blind eye to one or be like, Completely devoted to one in the sense of, like, staking our identity. I'm like, no, I am the righteous person. I am. I am. Like you said, I'm the big. I'm the big righteous person. I'm the person overflowing with wisdom.
- [53:49]
Elle
I feel like you have to be right because of verses 20 and 21.
- [53:52]
Josh Bosse
Well, thank you very much. And with that. Oh, man, let's just get into it. Brent, read the. Read that next chunk.
- [53:58]
Brent Billings
Wisdom makes one wise person more powerful than 10 rulers in a city. Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sin.
- [54:07]
Josh Bosse
Sins.
- [54:08]
Brent Billings
Do not pay attention to every word people say, or you may hear your servant cursing you, for you know in your heart that many times you yourself have cursed others.
- [54:16]
Josh Bosse
Boom, there we go. And to me, this also has a little bit of the flavor of. Reminds me of in chapter four and chapter six, reflecting on, you know, Qohelet's thoughts on oppression and that she characterizes it by knowing how to walk among the living. Like the wisdom of ordinary people, just knowing how to get along and build solidarity and that. That's really the thing that pushes back against oppression. And this, to me, feels a little bit like that in. In the sense of, like, hey, you know, you gotta let some stuff go. Don't take everything you say super seriously. Don't look for trouble, because you're gonna find it. And you know that you've said things that maybe have caused trouble before. So it's like, you know, know, let's. Let's just all calm down. But what's really interesting to me is kind of seemingly the non sequitur in verse 19. Like, if we erased verse 19, this would still make a lot of sense, right? Yeah.
- [55:19]
Brent Billings
The idea that the rulers are being brought in here is weird.
- [55:22]
Josh Bosse
Yes. And I have an answer. This is where we get into Ramez City and specifically, one guy's Ramis, who you will all be shocked to hear about. Oh, it's Yosef City, baby population, Bama. And the audience. And all of us here, we're all in. So the word for ruler there is very rare. It's the word shalit, which is used, I think, first of yosef in Genesis 42. And. And in the very same chapter, Yosef meets his brothers, but not all of them. How many brothers does he have?
- [56:03]
Elle
So many.
- [56:03]
Josh Bosse
Eleven.
- [56:04]
Elle
Too many.
- [56:05]
Josh Bosse
He has 11, but one of them, Benjamin, is home, which means, how many brothers does he meet?
- [56:10]
Brent Billings
10.
- [56:11]
Josh Bosse
10. We might be asking, why is this included here? And this is Where I think Qohelet is throwing us. Not just this, you know, as we said, this all kind of makes sense. This all vibes well together. But what happens when we think about verses 20 and onward through the lens of Yosef, seeing his 10 brothers, not knowing if Benjamin is still alive, not knowing if they got rid of him, too, not knowing if his dad is still alive. And then he says, well, there's never someone who doesn't sin. And, you know, not taking words seriously, like this is reminding me a lot of Yosef reflecting on his brothers and the tension that existed between them. The reports he brought back on them, the things he said, the things they said, thinking about, what are their intentions? What are they really? What are they up to?
- [57:07]
Brent Billings
Well, and is this a commentary on Yosef, how he was listening in on his brothers, talking and speaking through a translator so they didn't know he could understand them?
- [57:17]
Josh Bosse
There could also be that as well. And I think that is, yes, another juicy layer there.
- [57:23]
Brent Billings
Except they didn't curse him.
- [57:25]
Josh Bosse
See, that's the thing is he didn't. He didn't know. And it wasn't until. Yeah, that. That's where I think the difference there is. Like, what was Yosef's agenda? Right. It wasn't to catch his brothers out. That was kind of his agenda, maybe back in the day. But in that moment, he was concerned about whether his younger brother and his dad were alive. And I think that's. It's subtextual, but I think that's pretty clear in the text. He's trying to angle for them to bring him Benjamin because he's like, well, they were about to kill me. Would they have just tried to finish off Rachel's line? Yeah, exactly. To get the inheritance for themselves.
- [58:07]
Elle
Not to throw you more honor. But it's not just that the first mention is Yosef.
- [58:15]
Josh Bosse
The.
- [58:15]
Elle
The only other mention of Shalit outside of Kohelet is Yosef.
- [58:21]
Josh Bosse
Wow. Wow.
- [58:22]
Elle
So if that's not what she's doing, then what is happening?
- [58:25]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, what is happening there? Yep, exactly. And as I've said many times with the Ramazine here, I think there's probably, like, there's so much intentionality in Kohelet's part and. And even in some of the more recent chapters, I've become very, like, I guess odd by the nuance and the way that she weaves together these remazims. So I am very certain that there is a lot of depth there. But I'm going to push us onwards because, well, for one thing, there's we're not done with yosef ramezim, and the rest of this chapter gets pretty wild. So let's just push right through to the end and take apart the stuff that's going to get really dicey.
- [59:16]
Brent Billings
Okay. All this I tested by wisdom. And I said, I am determined to be wise, but this was beyond me. Whatever exists is far off and most profound. Who can discover it? So I turned my mind to understand, to investigate, and to search out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and the madness of folly. I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare. Look, says the teacher, this is what I have discovered. Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things While I was still searching but not finding. I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them. All this only have I found God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes.
- [60:11]
Josh Bosse
Wow. Okay. There's a couple flags on that we're gonna have to throw. There's some interpretive choices being made there. My goodness. Couple extra words thrown in.
- [60:22]
Elle
All seems perfectly fine to me. No idea what you guys are talking about.
- [60:28]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. So, well, let's. Let's go through this in order. So we start with kohelet giving, kind of, you know, giving us this yosef ramis and then having this kind of, like, very diplomatic, kind of neighborly, like, hey, you know, don't take everything here seriously. And then we get this. This break saying, I tested all this with wisdom, and I wanted to be wise, but wisdom was far from me. What has been is far away. The same word for far away in the previous verse of wisdom being far away. What has been is far away and very deep. Who can discover it? And this feels like a very, you know, disjointed next step. Is there anything sticking out to you there, Elle?
- [61:18]
Elle
You sensed my scorn from afar, and darn. I've already fallen into the archetype of the scornful woman. Darn. However, it doesn't say I turned my mind. It says I turned my heart. And so my squinty irritation is once again at westerners dragging in our ideas of heart. Heart, dumb mind. Good. So if we're pursuing. If we're pursuing wisdom, even though the text says heart, I'm gonna make it mine because I know better than scripture.
- [61:52]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [61:52]
Elle
So that's what my squinty eyes were about.
- [61:54]
Josh Bosse
Absolutely. We've. Yes, we've addressed that many times. The heart is just. It's. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Anyway, yeah, yeah, let's not get on that rap trail. So what's interesting is that this word for distance or being far away, Rehoque, comes up in the Yosef story. An interesting moment, thinking about, talking about the brothers and overhearing and even just hearing their plans, thinking about their intentions. And it's when they're out in the field, but they're not where they said they would be. Yosef has to ask for directions, and he comes and they see him from far off, and then they begin to plot about what they're gonna do with him. And this is also interesting because they were. Kohelet repeats this word twice. And in the second verse, where. Where she's saying that what has been is very far, she then says, yeah, exactly. Just deep, deep. It's deep, deep down. And I can't help but think of the image of them seeing Yosef from far off and then throwing him deep down in a pit. And then, of course, also this insertion of the past, of what has been is far away, and it's deep, deep. Who can find it? What is being said here? And what does Yosef's story have anything to do with it? I'll put this out here because I don't want to make us walk around Jericho seven times or anything. I feel like what this is saying is that in trying to sift through other people's intentions and what they did back then, the text tells us they were plotting against him, but Yosef doesn't know that when he's walking up. So I feel like on one hand, this is in the larger scheme, the larger overall theme of desire, when we're considering our own faults and being grace filled towards other people, which is a lot of what Kohelet is saying here. If we start with this idea of the good name, we've gone all the way down the trail of leaning into the hard things and focusing on our name throughout all that. And then we've come to this, you know, moment of big humility of Kohelet, even kind of making light of her own pursuit of wisdom. And then we come to Yosef and him struggling, wondering about his brother's intentions. And I think what this is doing is bringing it back to, you know, the. The incident, the. The original wound between Yosef and his brothers, or at least in terms of him being. Being sold off into slavery. Obviously there was more context before that. But it's almost as if this is yosef saying, like, I. I can't go back and know what they were thinking or feeling at that time. I can't go back and try and understand every little nitty gritty thing about, you know, who they were and are they even the same people today? Like, that past is far off and it's. It's buried. I can't account for that. I can't find an answer that will satisfy me for all those things that happened at the same time. It's very interesting because the structure of this. Of how Kohele presents this in verse 23, she is the one who is seeing wisdom at a far distance. And it's almost like she's kind of calling herself out for treating wisdom as this thing that she wants to, I don't know, like, get for herself. Like, I. I don't know. There's something a little bit strange there. I don't quite know what to make of it. What do y' all think?
- [65:35]
Elle
I want to line it up chronologically with the story of yosef so rumors, like, don't hear what your servants are saying about you.
- [65:43]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [65:43]
Elle
The beginning of yosef being a horrible person and getting what's coming to him, she said with extreme bias. The bad reports before he even has the dreams that he'll be better than. What was it, 10 rulers before it gets to that. It says that it was his habit to go around spreading rumors about his brothers.
- [66:05]
Josh Bosse
Yes, yes. He would bring a bad report.
- [66:08]
Elle
Yeah. Yeah. So that was his. What he was up to. So then if we follow along through his narrative and he's in the pit, I think the thing that as common across people's experience of oppression, people's experience of tragedy, of discovering unbelonging, of being thrown in a pit, is, whoa, who am I? What's my story? Is this the end of my story? It feels far from me now to know what's going to become of me. Is this thing that I heard from God really going to possibly become true? So if Koheleta is standing there looking around, being like, what's the sum of all of this? Like, this evil, the wickedness of folly and the foolishness, which is madness, as the RSV says. That's like him being carried off by the spice traders on the way.
- [67:02]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [67:03]
Elle
Which then. Ding, ding, ding. Sets up chronologically our next moment.
- [67:08]
Josh Bosse
Exactly. And this is where. If we know that this is referencing Yosef, that puts a very different spin on verse 26.
- [67:18]
Elle
Right.
- [67:18]
Josh Bosse
The woman more bitter than death Whose heart? I. I like the way the NASB translates it here. So I'll read it. Whose heart is snares and nets and whose hands are chains? Who is this? Who could this possibly be? This mysterious woman?
- [67:32]
Elle
Potiphar's wife.
- [67:33]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, exactly.
- [67:34]
Elle
Which heart goes out to her? She was married to eunuch, so she was going through it too, just for fairness. So I took a class on Ecclesiastes when I was at Hebrew U. And these verses were pulled up to be like, well, it couldn't have been taught by a woman. I mean, it couldn't have. A kohele couldn't have been written by a woman.
- [67:54]
Josh Bosse
Interesting. Okay.
- [67:55]
Elle
Because it's in there, which is, to me, pretty reductive. Like, I've met lots of women who say bad things about women.
- [68:04]
Josh Bosse
It's funny because, yeah, you had brought that up in episode one. And after that I'm like, you know, I've actually never heard that before. But I. Yeah, that's. That's wild, man.
- [68:13]
Elle
But if we look at all of the wisdom literature, which I see that you have here in your outline, so sorry for skipping over to it, but like, in the rest of the wisdom literature, wisdom is a woman. And so it's not like, oh, well, I guess the Bible hates women because they're portrayed this way. Obviously, you've been lining up this crazy cool remez about this very specific story. And in Proverbs, it's not just like, there's the woman wisdom, and now here she's a bad person. If you read that whole first third of Proverbs, there's lady wisdom, and then there's also somebody else in the street, the seductress, and so. And so pulling. Pulling that image in wisdom literature while pulling on this narrative point in somebody's story. Like, you listener out there in the original culture, you who are in exile, do you feel like you've been thrown into a pit and now you've been pulled out into a foreign empire? Who are you going to listen to? Are you going to listen to the person who tells you it's just one thing, it's fine. Or are you going to pursue wisdom? So to me, of course, it makes sense that Qohelet would put on. Pull on the story that she would pull on this famous femme fatale character, the original archetype. And yeah, so I'm bummed about our inability to hold multiple things in mind at the same time when thinking about what might women say about other women. Could it be anything other than a whole thesis About Agenda. No, surely not.
- [70:02]
Josh Bosse
Yeah. And. And I. I also want to pause and just like, this is really, like, from a literary point, too. This is really just brilliant. Layering the Yosef Ramez and then like, also casting onto it these archetypes and the tension between them. Like, it's. It's. It's wild, man. This, this. It makes me feel like, oh, man, this would be a really. It reminds me of the movie Persona if I haven't seen that Ingmar Bergman classic. So we have Kohelet maybe even, like, kind of existentially wrestling herself in the same way of saying, like, am I even, like, what is it that I'm doing? Is, am I going to end up with a good name? Like, in Reflecting on Legacy, this all feels like it's getting very personal. And I think that's where we see the overlap of, you know, Lady Wisdom as the seductress in the form of Potiphar's wife, her as Yosef. Am I just being dragged down by my own, you know, inability to see beyond myself? Am I the one who's not self aware here?
- [71:08]
Elle
And then in verse 27, she references herself.
- [71:11]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [71:11]
Elle
Which to me enforces what you're saying and also is potentially, if we are right about Qohelet's gender, she's drawing attention to her own gender. Right. And putting the audience who's chosen to listen to her under the microscope of like, oh, are you being led astray by another Bodhifar's wife?
- [71:33]
Josh Bosse
And, you know, I. I have a thought about this, this next part. But first, I. I do want to point out. So in verse, I believe it's here in verse 27, when she's quoting herself. This is where she uses feminine verbs in this kind of breaking in as a narrator voice, I suppose. And here's the other interesting thing. She's adding one thing to another to find an explanation. To me, this is also very reminiscent of Yosef because Yosef constantly encounters dreams that come in pairs. Right. And the consistent theme between his pair of dreams and Pharaoh's pair of dreams, which he says in the climactic moment, is Pharaoh, these dreams are one dream. It's one and the same. And this idea of one being combined with one to find an explanation. This feels like Qohelet is kind of getting to the point of, if we're going chronologically through Yosef's story, this is Qohelet figuring out what the dream means. And what's also interesting is the use of this word. I believe it's Cheshvon, which can mean an explanation or a scheme. And Elle, if you have any insight into that word, I'd love to hear it.
- [72:59]
Elle
It's like something that's been braided together.
- [73:01]
Josh Bosse
Oh, okay. There you go. I like that. Oh, there we go. That even works better with the idea of the two becoming one in terms of the dreams. I'm not trying to talk about marriage there, although I think that is the metaphor that's going to be transitioned to in a second. So. Yeah, I guess actually that. That's just perfect. What's interesting here is in. I alluded to this before, but I didn't say it outright. So let me say it here. Brent's. The translation Brent was looking at for verse 28 is not good. It adds in some. Some extra words, which makes this, to be frank, kind of offensive that I found one upright man, but no upright women. The word upright is not there.
- [73:43]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [73:43]
Josh Bosse
Nope.
- [73:43]
Brent Billings
What's crazy is the net also adds the words and then they put in the footnote. These words aren't actually here. We just added them.
- [73:53]
Josh Bosse
I mean, I. At least they're honest, I guess. Yeah.
- [73:58]
Elle
What I'm about to say is perjury, but do know.
- [74:01]
Josh Bosse
But I will say it for the record. Okay, here's the other interesting thing. L. If I was going to ask you what is the opposite of the word Isha?
- [74:10]
Elle
Ish.
- [74:10]
Josh Bosse
There we go. Man and woman. And here we have this. I found one man, but I have not found a woman. We would guess that the first word would be ish and the second word would be isha. But that's not what we have.
- [74:22]
Elle
Nope.
- [74:23]
Josh Bosse
The first word is not is. The first word is Adam.
- [74:27]
Elle
Person, Human person.
- [74:29]
Josh Bosse
It is as neutral as you can get. It just means human.
- [74:32]
Elle
And then if we throw Yosef's name in there, it's. I have not found one person from Yosef, which in Hebrew from. Can also be since. Since yosef.
- [74:42]
Josh Bosse
Honestly, the. The word order in this verse is also very strange. Okay. So if these are not opposites, if this isn't just like, hey, there's. You know, it's hard to find a good band, but a woman? No chance. Women are awful. Like, if we. If we set that aside as maybe, maybe not what's being said here and then consider that these really aren't even opposite words, what could be being said here? I have been searching and I haven't found what I'm looking for. I've been able to find a person among a thousand, but I haven't been able to find an isha. Now, l. I know this isn't the literal meaning of it, but isha is often used euphemistically to mean what? Wife. A wife. So what if what Kohelet is saying, very tongue in cheek, is that I've been able to find a good guy. I've been able to find a person that's good, but not a partner, not a wife. Which, again with is. Is Kohelet also here commenting not just on, you know, this larger conversation of exile, but also, we don't have to go fully into the gender politics of it, but she's found a good person, but just not that partner, not that two becoming one that. That Yosef answer to. Here's what the dream means. That, like, she hasn't found the thing that fits. She's found things that are good. She's found things that kind of make sense, but not anything that actually gets to that other level that you trone that something more. There's something more that makes me want to. That is what's missing. That, to me, makes so much more sense. What do you guys think about this?
- [76:37]
Elle
I'm wondering if. If she's saying she's contrasted this image from the proverbs, right? About, like, the femme fatale woman versus lady wisdom. What if she's saying, like, out of all of these people, I'd love to find a yosef, right? If you can't find wisdom that you can't find folly, fine. We're in exile. Try to be a yosef. I'm curious about whether that's the takeaway that that's being invited there. But.
- [77:06]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, well. And. And, you know, when we think about Yosef, like, he did not find a wife. He was given. Given a wife and a new name that was not his. His original name. And. And interestingly, you know, when he names his children Manasseh, at least this his name means, like, oh, I've forgotten about all the bad things because now life's good. Which is, in terms of Yosef's new reality is a little bit scary. You know, the head of the empire.
- [77:36]
Elle
Well, it really circles us back to the beginning of the chapter, Right? Are you obfuscating what's uncomfortable and staying numb to what's real?
- [77:45]
Josh Bosse
Exactly.
- [77:46]
Elle
Because everything's better.
- [77:47]
Josh Bosse
So she's like, yosef, but didn't ever collaborate with empire in the same way. So he's like, well, now I'm so. I'm still. Is she still in the pit? It. Without an explanation? And that seems to be what it's at the end. And what I wonder too is at this very last verse that the only thing she's found is that God made people. And that word there for people is ha. Adam, if we need to remind people that is not again, not a, you know, inherently masculine word. God made people of rights and they seek out many schemes or answers.
- [78:28]
Brent Billings
Is that upright there?
- [78:30]
Josh Bosse
Yes, that word is upright. Yes.
- [78:33]
Elle
God made the gods, made the humanity upright, and they seek out. There's the Rav word again.
- [78:42]
Josh Bosse
And this is where isn't this so Bama. We started by saying what you really want. That is a good name. And here we are. And Kohelet's tearing her hair out because she wants an answer. Right? She wants to understand how it all fits together.
- [79:00]
Elle
It's the word again from the beginning. She's trying to braid it all together, which also gets used in one other place to make siege engines. Humanity keeps making siege engines.
- [79:15]
Josh Bosse
Yep. Our trebuchets will be the seek wisdom, not trebuchets. But I, I love that like this, I feel like is such a, a powerful chapter. It's, it really is a trip, like a descent into not really madness, but like the existential, like anxiety, the cycle of, in trying to grasp the thing, really realizing that you've lost sight of it. And I think that that is what she is sharing in, in her becoming like, kind of self aware of, like, am I just spinning my wheels here? Am I just focused on an answer? Shouldn't I be focused on the good name? But then at the same time we have like this very like, heartfelt like, I, I, I'm just, I'm looking for a partner. Like, I'm looking for something that like, soothes my soul. Like, you know that what's the meaning of life? Isn't there? What's the something more to life? And I feel like this is very relatable and human and, and honest also, like, this is not something again to, to come back to. This is a work of philosophy. This is not the normal stuff you get in a work of philosophy in Western culture. And yeah, this is. I, I don't like you. Yeah, normally I try and sit with some of the takeaways from the chapter, but other than just being able to relate to this struggle and I guess meditate on that north star of a good name.
- [80:52]
Elle
Yeah. I think if I were to pull two takeaways from the deck, the first one from the first half of the chapter would be stop numbing yourself out. Stop dodging. Stop trying to like, pick up a coping mechanism instead of being present to what is real.
- [81:07]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [81:08]
Elle
And if what is real is rejoicing, then rejoice. And what if. If what is real is mourning, then mourn. And that's wisdom. And then the second half seems to be about pursuing wisdom and how we're invited to do so, especially in the context of oppression and empire, which Qohelet probably is and USA Life was. And to be clear that in that process there are going to be. There's going to forces. Sounds mysterious, but you know, there's going to be a part of you, whether it's within you or from within or without, which wants to drag you toward other things that just feel good and they feel better than wisdom. Because it's hard to praise God in the midst of oppression. It's hard to do the wise thing. I think she's, she's pointing us to if we can do that, if we can be a yosef, then pull from Romans, yet we can reign in life even while being squished under the boot of empire.
- [82:10]
Josh Bosse
Yes. Yes. And that's. Oh, man, I, I just love her tenacity in this book. Like there is just such a, like such a stubborn desires. Like she just is not going to back down from these questions from the struggle. And man, oh man, the more I dig into this book, the more I just respect its author so much.
- [82:33]
Brent Billings
All right, that does it for this week, Josh. We'll be back next week with more Qohelet, more of the diving deeper into the wisdom that we find here. But I don't know if we had any. We might have one or two, two links for this episode, but you can find those in the show notes or@baymoddociptrip.com you can use the contact page there to get in touch with us. You can check the news page to see what's going on. You can check the map. New groups being added to that all the time. So even if you've checked it before, check that out. Maybe, maybe you need some community to wrestle through these words because there's, I mean, as much as we're saying, and there's a lot of stuff we're leaving to the side because this book is dense. This wisdom is heavy. So lots of things to do. Thank you for joining us on the Baywa podcast this week. We'll talk to you again soon.