← The BEMA Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript106 lines
- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Brent Billings
This is the Bama podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today, Josh Bosse turns our ears to Kohelet as we learn to avert disaster.
- [00:16]
Marty Solomon
Coming from the last chapter where we talked all about a good name and how to learn from those who came before us and the legacies they left behind on what makes a meaningful life, we are now turning toward the future and how to avert a disaster from taking place.
- [00:33]
Josh Bosse
I noticed they kept me out of my favorite chapter of Ecclesiastes and then had me come in for the chapter I probably feel the least of anything about. So this is good. I'm learning.
- [00:43]
Marty Solomon
Let's see if we can make you feel a little something here.
- [00:45]
Josh Bosse
Feel a little something here. We'll move the needle a little.
- [00:48]
Brent Billings
Josh and I were sitting together planning this all out, and he's like, I think Marty would be good on chapter eight. So I don't know, he sees something in you, Marty, that I guess you don't see in yourself.
- [00:57]
Josh Bosse
Ah, I love it.
- [00:58]
Brent Billings
I love it.
- [00:59]
Marty Solomon
We'll find out. Well, before we dive into the text though, even though I'm loathe to slow us down from diving into the text, we have to always remember that this is a weird book. This is a book of philosophy maybe mixed with a little prophetic chutzpah and some other things.
- [01:19]
Josh Bosse
Let me see if I can remember. This is a book that's got a little bit of humanism, it's got a little bit of individualism, but not the kind of individualism or maybe even humanism that we might think of or assume. It's coming from a different perspective, that Eastern way of not individualistic as a consumer, not humanistic in a modern era sense, but more of a what is it that we, and I specifically can do in relationship to God? Do I got that right?
- [01:47]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely. And in fact, that theme specifically is going to play a huge part of this chapter. That tension between individualism, as in thinking about what happens to me based on how I live, but also still having grown up in a communal context where thinking about how something impacts the community is front of mind for Qohelet. And the other thing, as always, is we need to remember that Qohelet is also talking about what's happening under the sun. Qohelet is not letting herself, you know, appeal to, oh, you know, we're God's partner, we have Torah, we have Sinai. Like, nope, it's just looking at what's happening under the sun. What can be seen universally true, not.
- [02:28]
Josh Bosse
Covenantally true, but universally true.
- [02:29]
Marty Solomon
Exactly. And, you know, this is always good to remember. Again, you know, this might sound like kind of a secular materialist thinking, but go back to session zero and difference in Eastern perspective. Kohelet is not using any of this. Even the big questions she puts out about God and God's relationship to us, there is no point at which she says, yeah, I guess God's not real. That's not the question she's interested in. She's not trying to poke holes in theology. She's trying to test all these things to figure out how it actually works. And similarly, when she throws out propositions, these are not Greek syllogistic. Building up this truth on top of this truth to reach another truth. It is putting out tensions, physical metaphors whose movement and particular qualities are important for not telling us what Qohelet thinks or what Qohelets wants us to think, but in moving our thought process in.
- [03:24]
Josh Bosse
That tension, which, if I understand ancient wisdom traditions appropriately, would be what everybody would expect. Like, if what you're saying is not universally true, if everybody's not gonna look at it and go, o, oh, yeah, that's good, then it's really not true wisdom for the ancient world. Like, it's just wisdom for you. Like, to really boggle somebody's mind in that ancient Eastern world is to provide wisdom that everybody goes, oh, gosh, we all see that, right? We all acknowledge that that's real wisdom. Because we all. It's undeniable from all of us, that kind of an approach.
- [03:56]
Marty Solomon
And that's a great point, too, especially invoking kind of the figure of Solomon, which, you know, that's what Solomon. One of his biggest moments is the Queen of Sheba comes in and she listens to what he has to say, and she's like, ah, yeah, that's good, that's good. That is a sign of wisdom, that it appeals broadly, not through abstraction, but through combining other people's experiences and saying, oh, yep, we've seen that too. So with that being said, Brent, let's dive into this. And I gotta say, up top, listeners, you know, there might be some. In terms of Bible versions, this chapter has a lot of really difficult passages that I've seen translated in different ways. And not like, translated in different ways that are not meaningful, just, you know, like, synonyms. Like, take a verse and make it say, like, multiple, totally different things. So we're probably going to be having to make some stops and talk about this translation versus that translation. So, you know, buckle in. Hopefully that Will not be confusing. But, yeah, let's dive into it. Let's just take those first four verses there, Brent.
- [04:57]
Brent Billings
As usual, I'm reading the niv, but we've not shied away from talking about different translations, but this one's just going to be a little more than normal. Perhaps because this book is crazy. The translations are. Are challenging. So here we go. Who is like the wise who knows the explanation of things? A person's wisdom brightens their face and changes its hard appearance. Obey the king's command, I say, because you took an oath before God, do not be in a hurry to leave the king's presence. Do not stand up for a bad cause, for he will do whatever he pleases. Since a king's word is supreme, who can say to him, what are you doing?
- [05:39]
Marty Solomon
There are a couple issues I have with that. Surprise, surprise.
- [05:44]
Brent Billings
Yeah, sure. Although I will say, josh, in some of the past episodes, you and Al and, you know, whatever, have been like, oh, well, that's not a good translation. And then as you're explaining it over the next five minutes, I'm like, I feel like you're talking yourselves back into the translation that I just read. So I don't know. We'll see about this. We'll see about this.
- [06:03]
Marty Solomon
That may be the case. Well, the first thing I want to say is that there is a strong Ramez that I think is a little bit hidden. This part is not the worst part. So it talks about a man's wisdom brightening his face. The word there is to light up. When we think about a face lighting up, what do we think of?
- [06:23]
Josh Bosse
Definitely think of Moses radiant. I even heard that in the original. When I heard it pass through the first time, my brain was like, oh, Moses radiant face. His face that shines after he sees God.
- [06:33]
Marty Solomon
Yes. And there are a lot of very, like, short, kind of staccato statements that Qohelet makes. And there's a lot of disagreement about which statements stand on their own and which of them are part of the same thought, which is where this will get tricky. But let's just start. Here we have the invocation of this wise person who knows the meaning of a word or a matter and then says, wisdom lights up the face and the stern, or literally the strong face is changed. That's a much more like, bland, literal translation. But this is really interesting. So when we think about Moses face lighting up, you know, we think about the instant where he was in God's presence, saw as much of God's presence as is humanly possible. But do we remember all the context that came before this?
- [07:29]
Josh Bosse
Well, let's see here. So there's. I mean, that's Exodus 33 ish 32 is the golden calf. So it's right after the golden calf, Moses is kind of pleading for the people. God says, okay, but then Moses, there's a back and forth and a back and forth, because Moses eventually will say, you're asking me to lead these people, but I don't know, I need some kind. I need something. So I want to see your glory. And God will end up saying, well, my presence will go with you. Seeing my glory is a little tricky. And there's that whole story, but that seems to be what prompts that.
- [08:04]
Marty Solomon
Yes, and in fact, there's a lot more going on there. But before we do that, I want to talk about what the rest of this verse is saying, because that's going to be key to seeing this pattern in the Moshe Ramez. So we have this image of Moshe and the wisdom that lights up his face, having the capacity to change. Change a face that is stern or strong, or we might say, intent on going down a certain path. And the very next verse. I forget how your translation put it, Brent. Like I said, it's translate. I've been looking between the JPs and some of the English translations I like and alter, and I like bits and pieces from all of them in looking at the Hebrew, and I think there's a theme there that I haven't seen anyone quite catch. The first thought is to keep a king's utterance. And I think yours says, because of a vow to God. But I think it's a simile here. Treat what the king says as if it was a vow to God, which Qohelet has already talked about vows to God before, and her exhortation was, don't do that lightly. It isn't just, oh, you obey it because it's an oath to God. It's something that you would admonish someone from doing easily. And also, you know, if you're familiar with Torah, if you are a patriarch, if you are the head of the beit of and someone in your beit of makes a oath to God, you have certain rights to say, nope, I'm nullifying that vow. That is not a good vow. For whatever reason, you have to be really careful about what you vow to God, because you know if you make a vow, you have to keep it. It'd be, as Qohelet says earlier, be better to not say anything than to say something and not be able to make good on it. So this isn't necessarily just saying, yeah, whatever a king says, do it. Treat it like it's what God says. That is not what this is saying. This is saying whatever the king says. It is going to have a huge impact. So treat it as if it's heavy. And what's interesting here is that when it says the. I forget what your translation said, but the literal phrase there is to guard the mouth of the king, not what the king says, but the source of the commands. So as much as you are able, try and stop the king from saying wax stuff that is going to cause problems, Just like you would try and stop, you know, someone in your own family from making a foolish oath. And this is where, again, these next statements, it depends on where you cut them up. I agree with the way yours says, brent, about, you know, don't be in a hurry to leave. Don't be in a hurry to leave his presence. And that word for hurry is something we've talked about before. It's a word to. Sometimes it's translated to tarry or, you know, this is a word that comes up a couple times in the yosef story. It literally means to tremble. So it's kind of this idea of like an anxious rush. And then it says, don't. I think yours says, like, stand up for an evil matter. And that word there, evil matter is the phrase evil word that I think is gonna be kind of the thesis of this whole chapter. So don't stand. That's the literal word there. Don't stand in an evil matter, for he will do whatever he pleases. Now, this is a little bit of a weird one, right? Don't be in a rush to leave the king. You're trying to guard his mouth. Don't be in a hurry to leave. And don't stand in an evil word. For he will. He wants to do. He's the king. Right. And in trying to, like, actually make sense of this as a coherent thought and not just take it as like, yeah, yeah, he's saying what the king says is important. You know, watch yourself, be careful. Like, we can kind of catch that vibe off of this. But I think the specific thing qohelet is saying is that you need to watch what the king says. Just like, you would be careful if you heard your kids say, I vowed to the lord. And he'd be like, oh, what are you about to say? I'm like, on the edge of my seat, ready to jump in and say, stop. Don't finish that sentence. We're not saying that. And then he says, don't be in a hurry to leave and don't stand in an evil matter. Now, the word for stand can also mean to stop, as in, like, to stop moving. And I want us to picture this, right? You happen to be in the court of the king, and the king starts to say something really whack, you know, maybe think we're in Esther, right? And we're talking with King Achashverush, right? After he's talked with Haman, and he's talking about this. This genocidal plan to wipe out all the Jewish people that reside in the land. And we might want to be like, oh, my gosh, this is genocide. This is evil. I don't want to be a part of this. I'm getting out of here. Right? Like, that might be our personal reaction. And I think this is what Kohelet is warning against, because as he says in the second half of this verse, the king's gonna do whatever he wants. So if he's saying something messed up or evil, something. And again, as we've talked about before, the word evil having the most primary connotation of destruction rather than primarily like a moral evil. You're supposed to keep the conversation going. Because if you just leave it after the king says, let's just kill all of them, and then it's like, any objections? No. Everyone is, okay, all right, move on. But if you say, oh, all the Jews. Oh, you mean like Mordecai, the guy who saved your life? Then maybe the king goes, oh, yeah, I forgot about. Okay, well, maybe. Maybe I'm. Maybe I should think this over. You know, it. You draw the conversation on, because if you just stand up, get out of there, leave, stop the conversation, then it's just going to barrel toward destruction with nothing to stop it. No one's going to say, hey, what are you doing? This is a really dumb idea.
- [13:48]
Josh Bosse
Gosh, Josh, when you say that, all I can picture now is that Kohelet is Queen Esther. Ooh, I love that she becomes, like, this archetype of Kohelet. Like, she's the one that says, I stayed for such a time as this. I had to stay in the room so that I could influence a king that in the book of Esther, is not some great guy.
- [14:07]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [14:08]
Josh Bosse
Kind of a dork or whatever you want to. Like, just kind of a imperial knucklehead, but she's there to steer and to avert away from total disaster.
- [14:16]
Marty Solomon
Yes, exactly. And not only that, what does she do? She keeps drawing the king along. She could have just said, hey, I'm a Jew, Haman's trying to kill me. And maybe the king would have said, okay, Haman, your idea was bad. But instead, because she draws it out, the king is able to see more of Haman's character. And Haman's whole play on power is totally overthrown because of that. Yeah, if she had just said, okay, I'm leaving, I can't be a part of this, then, yeah, you know, like Mordecai said, you know, she wouldn't have even been saved from what was coming. So, yeah, drawing it out, staying in that uncomfortable place, not losing your head, not freaking out and being like, okay, the king's talking about genocide. Like, just keep talking to him. Maybe he'll even just get distracted or be like, I don't know, this seems too complicated. Let me just, you know, we'll talk about this later. Delaying it is part of slowing it down and averting this evil word. Now, with that, let's take just a peek at what Moses does. And as you mentioned, this is happening right after the golden calf. And initially, when the golden calf happens, before Moses even goes down and sees it, God's first thought is, you know what? Let me just wipe out the people of Israel and I'll create a new nation through you, Moses. You'll be the new Abraham. And Moses argues against that. And at the end of it, it talks about God repenting from the evil again, destruction as the primary connotation, the evil that God was going to do, the destruction he was going to rain down. And later on, if we look in chapter 33, which is after he comes down, deals with the sin of the golden calf. And like you said, Marty, there's kind of this back and forth, which to be honest, I've never really fully understood what that was about until I dug in here. Brent, why don't you go ahead and read Exodus 33 from verses 1 to 3.
- [16:09]
Brent Billings
Then the Lord said to Moses, leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, I will give it to your descendants. I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey, but I will not go with you because you are a stiff necked people and I might destroy you on the way.
- [16:36]
Marty Solomon
Okay, so let's just lay out really quick. What God says, leave. Go up to the land. I will send an angel before you to drive everyone out. But I am not going to go up in your midst because of this rebellion. I might destroy you on the way. Okay, go up. I'm going to send an angel with you. I'm not going to go with you. Pretty rough. Now let's read the next three verses.
- [17:07]
Brent Billings
When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn. And no one put on any ornaments. For the Lord had said to Moses, tell the Israelites, you are a stiff necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you. So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
- [17:28]
Marty Solomon
Now we just heard something similar to this. But this is not really what God had said above.
- [17:36]
Brent Billings
Right?
- [17:37]
Marty Solomon
God didn't say, well, let me see what I'm going to do with you. Take off the ornaments. Which again, if we remember the ornaments, the jewelry, that was what the people had used to create the golden calf. So Moses is kind of messing with God's words here. God didn't say above to do that. God gave him pretty specific instructions. Moshe took some of those and told them to the Israelites. And literally in verse four, when it says, when they heard the distressing message, that's the word or the phrase, evil word.
- [18:10]
Josh Bosse
No way. Really?
- [18:12]
Marty Solomon
Yes.
- [18:13]
Josh Bosse
Wow. Okay.
- [18:14]
Marty Solomon
If we think about it like this is past the point of God saying, okay, I'm just going to wipe all the Israelites out. What is the destructive part of what God's talking about here? What's missing?
- [18:26]
Josh Bosse
Is it the lack of his presence or.
- [18:28]
Marty Solomon
It's the lack of his presence.
- [18:30]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [18:30]
Marty Solomon
They were supposed to be married. And now God's saying, you know, I'll give you the land, but I'm not going with you. Yeah, I don't think I can be your partner anymore.
- [18:38]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Marty Solomon
And so they're mourning this now. They're putting off the symbol of their rebellion. They're showing signs of repentance. Moshe has just changed God's words again, drawing out the process and incites the Israelites to repent. And then when Mosheh goes back to God in verse 12, I won't have us read through all of this, but I'm going to pull out a few quotes. The first thing, Moses starts talking to God. God doesn't start the conversation. Moshe does. And Moses says, you told me to bring up this people, but you didn't tell Me, who you'd send with me. Now, what's the problem with this? Didn't God tell him that he was going to send an angel before them?
- [19:27]
Josh Bosse
Oh, yeah, you're right. Yep.
- [19:28]
Marty Solomon
Now the angel was going to go before them. Is Moses maybe splitting hairs here, or is he just pretending that that didn't happen? I don't know. But he's asking God, like, really, are you going to send us up with no one? And then he says, you know, obviously I found favor with you, but remember, this nation is your people. And God responds and says, all right, I'll send my presence, and I will give you rest. But when God says, give you rest, if you look at the Hebrew, it's in the singular.
- [19:59]
Josh Bosse
I will give you rest, referring to Moses. I'll give Moses rest.
- [20:03]
Marty Solomon
We might think that. And then this is why I think Moses response, hey, if your presence doesn't go with us, don't lead us up, just like God just told you his presence would go with you. Is God maybe saying, like, I'll lead you, but all I can promise is that you'll find rest in the land? And Moses saying, whoa, hey, now, that's not what this is about. Moses says some other stuff about, you know, aren't we supposed to be your special people? And then Moses says, okay, I'll do what you've spoken. And this is when Moshe says, show me your glory. And when God shows Moshe his glory, what is it that God, like, what happens? How do we engage with it? Obviously, we don't get, like, oh, God has, you know, beautiful brown eyes and, you know, kind of a strong, wide nose. You know, like, we don't get a description of anything. What is the only substance we are given about, what God's presence is like?
- [20:57]
Josh Bosse
His voice. It's what he hears.
- [20:59]
Marty Solomon
His voice. And what does God's voice say?
- [21:01]
Josh Bosse
Compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in love and truth and faithfulness.
- [21:05]
Marty Solomon
Exactly. Moshe is saying, okay, right. And what kind of God are you again? Who are you really?
- [21:12]
Josh Bosse
Right, right, right, right, right. Oh, that's great. Yeah, sure.
- [21:15]
Marty Solomon
You need to be that God now. And it's after that or in preparation for this. That's when God says, okay, make two more tablets and bring them up, and I'll show you my presence, and we'll write the new Ketubah, and we'll be married again. Moshe is saving the partnership, the marriage.
- [21:36]
Josh Bosse
Mosheh's doing the thing that we're talking about. He's staying in the space. He's not just Leaving. And he's changing God. Like he's doing the thing we always have a hard time with. He's changing God's mind. He's doing the things that Qohelet's talking about. He's alter. He's changing God's trajectory, God's plans by staying in the room with the king.
- [21:55]
Marty Solomon
Yep. And this is the same chutzpah we see with Avraham, right? Oh, let me tell Moshe my. Or let me tell Avraham my plans. And Avraham says, whoa, let me haggle with you a little bit. Let's see if we can do something a little bit more compassionate and without getting into a discussion about, like, you know, God's omniscience. And, you know, God knows that he's going to say that. What does it mean to change God's mind? Let's not dive into that. That's not what this is about. This is about when there is something happening. And this is where I think we should take this out of the realm of just like kings and talking with God. But just anytime we're talking about someone who is in a. I would say a relative position of power, who is talking about destroying something. Right. And this example with God is perfect because in essence, God's kind of talking about a divorce. This is not me saying, you know, stop all your friends from getting divorces. Some divorces are really necessary and healthy and we don't need to get into the. All the. All the details of that. But, you know, if you're seeing someone who's about to destroy their family and you think, I think there's a way around this, we don't have. I don't think destruction is what has to happen to make this better. We don't do it by just saying, okay, I guess this guy is determined to destroy his life. He's his own person. He can make his own decisions. You say no. Draw out the conversation, have him talk more about it, hear what he's saying, and maybe the next time you talk to him. And this is something I think we do instinctually. We rephrase someone's wording. You say, it sounds like what this is really about is maybe your spouse doesn't listen to you enough. Is this really about that and not this? And, you know, you. You take their words and you change them and, you know, you make them maybe a little more gracious. And you say, you know, you say this person just doesn't care about you. But I don't think it's that. I think it might be this, whatever you do. And we do that of like altering words or massaging, slightly changing the wording, saying. You know, I think maybe it's more this than that. Maybe there's. And you kind of subtly suggest, like, is this really what you want to do? Is this really where we have to go? That is how we stop destruction before it starts, before it is unleashed. And as Qohelet says at the verse four, I believe, yeah, because the word of the king is authoritative. Once he says it. Once he says, yep, this is the edict, who's going to stop him then? No one's going to just say, hey, this seems like a dumb idea. Like, no, it's official. It's in writing. It's got the stamp and the signet. It can't be undone. Right? This is often. This is what happens in Esther. Right. The king has already approved a law, and so it can't be changed at that point while it can still be changed. Stand in that place, stand in that gap, just like Moshe, and say, okay, God, like, we'll keep talking about this. You, you know, especially with Moshe, where we have, you know, this kind of. He's the dividing line between what God says in private and what God says in public. And he doesn't just say, oh, I'm. I'm some sort of radio that just transmits perfectly everything God says without any kind of editing or context or anything. He uses his role to lead, to change the outcome. And I think that's something that we, we need to really pay attention to. And I mean, we talk about this all the time where, you know, God doesn't give us the interpretation of Torah or text. That's for us to do. God, you know, God handed the keys of the kingdom to us. We're not just supposed to be a robot turning the key. We're supposed to be mindful about, hey, when do I use this verse? When do I use that verse? When do I invoke this aspect of God or that aspect of God? Am I bringing God's judgment where we really need God's grace or vice versa? Am I giving God's grace to someone who really needs to hear some judgment and some consequences in their life? This is crucially important. And we get the counter example in the following verses. So why don't we go ahead and read verse five to nine, Brent.
- [26:07]
Brent Billings
Whoever obeys his command will come to no harm. And the wise heart will know the proper time and procedure. For there is a proper time and procedure for every matter. Though a person may be weighed down by misery. Since no one knows the future, who can tell someone else what is to come. As no one has power over the wind to contain it, so no one has power over the time of their death. As no one is discharged in time of war, so wickedness will not release those who practice it. All this I saw as I applied my mind to everything done under the sun. There is a time when a man lords it over others to his own hurt.
- [26:46]
Marty Solomon
The first line in verse five, one who keeps the command. The literal phrase there is does not know the evil word. And when it says, the wise heart knows the proper time and procedure, the literal words there are for time and judgment. So the way I think this should be read, and you could look at the Hebrew and disagree with me if you want, there are a lot of very smart translators who have seen this a bunch of different ways than me, but also very differently from each other. So I feel safe throwing my own spin in the ring. If you just follow the order. The king says, kill all the Jews. You say, aye. Aye. I'll go tell everyone. I'll make some xeroxes and put it up all around town. I'm just going to be obedient. Nothing bad is going to happen to you. You aren't going to be hit by the evil word. But the wise heart knows the time of judgment, that there is a time of judgment. In fact, the literal Hebrew goes, and a time of judgment is known to the wise heart. And then after that, we hear all this stuff about we don't know what the future holds. We don't know when these things are going to happen. When you sow destruction, you know, we know what's you're going to reap it. But when? On what timetable? Probably not for you. Maybe not even your children. Maybe it won't be until your great, great grandchildren that the curse will come home to roost. That's what makes it so easy to just follow orders when you're not the one being directly hurt. But that doesn't mean the curse isn't going to come back around the following verse, verse 6, when it says there is a time. What did you say? A time and procedure. For every delight.
- [28:32]
Brent Billings
For every matter.
- [28:33]
Marty Solomon
Oh, for every matter. So the word there is actually the word for desire. And it's the same word that's used when it says the king can do whatever he wants, whatever he pleases. That's the same word here. And I think what it's saying is whatever the king feels like doing that will have A time of judgment. The following words. When it says a person's trouble, the phrase there again it uses the word for evil, the Ra', at, the trouble, the destruction of humanity is heavy upon them. And I think what this means is saying that, you know, when that evil word goes out, it's going to fall on someone. There's going to be a time of judgment and accountability. But for now, it's just going to fall on people. Do they deserve it? Do they not deserve it? Doesn't really matter. It's like with exile, right? Some righteous people get caught up in exile. Some innocent babies who have never done anything wrong, they get exiled to Babylon or Assyria or wherever.
- [29:35]
Josh Bosse
And it's going to fall particularly on the ones who don't know the word.
- [29:38]
Marty Solomon
The evil word exactly.
- [29:40]
Josh Bosse
Whether that's because they didn't hang around to hear it or because whatever, you don't do anything to stand in its presence. Yes, the evil word impacts those that don't know anything about the evil world. They don't know the day, they don't know what's coming. They don't know any of those things, but somebody could have, should have or did.
- [29:55]
Marty Solomon
Yes. And that's where I think that the rest of the chapter, we talk a lot about what we know and what we don't know, and we don't know when judgment will come. And there's an interesting transition happening right here. I don't want to have the conversation right now, but we were just talking about leadership, about power, about authority and its capacity to create heavy suffering, heavy destruction. And that's what we're seeing here, right? It's going to fall heavy upon humanity, but no one knows what that's going to look like. No one knows exactly what will happen or how bad it'll get or how quickly. And I mean, that's something that definitely resonates with a lot of what happens to us in the day to day. Maybe just to use a very safe personal example, maybe I just decide, yeah, you know what, let's blow all our savings on the Maserati and I get to look cool. And will that bring me immediate financial ruin? Maybe, maybe the stock market crashes and then my Maserati is worthless and I would have rather bought 8 tons of peanuts or something to survive, I don't know. But it could be something that ruins my life today or 100 years from now, who knows? You can't necessarily predict how disaster will spring up, how these kind of bad decisions will exactly work out. But the wise person knows that that destruction is coming. Those bills will come due when exactly? No one knows. And this is where we get in verse eight. I really love the kind of parallel images here. No one has authority. And this word authority has been used throughout this chapter. No one has authority over the wind to imprison it, to box it in. You can't do it. And, of course, wind being one of the primary images of this book and its inability to be herded. And this is kind of, you know, expanding that image of herding the wind to something even more ridiculous, of shutting the wind in, bottling it. You know, like, no one can do that. And similarly, there's no authority over the day of death, and there's no one who's sent home in the time of war. Now, that's an interesting image here. We just kind of went from wind to the day of death. That kind of cranks things up a notch, right? From this more abstract symbol of spirit and the wiliness of God and creation to death, to war. I mean, I guess war and death are connected, but I think this is a very interesting image here precisely because I can think of exactly one exception that I feel like proves the rule and gets us a little closer to what Qohelet is saying here. Can you guys think of anyone who is sent home during a time of war in the text?
- [33:00]
Josh Bosse
Bathsheba's husband.
- [33:01]
Marty Solomon
Yes. Uriah the Hittite. Oh, man. He is sent home, and it's. It's not for a reason that's good to him. Nope. And I think even the fact that he was sent home, and then David's like, hey, why don't you go home and sleep with your wife so no one finds out that I'm the baby's father. I think it's kind of probably clear to everyone that something strange is going on.
- [33:29]
Josh Bosse
I'll just say more kings and more rooms with more evil words that could have been averted.
- [33:35]
Marty Solomon
Very well said. Yes, yes. And that one is particularly rough. It took me a while to realize this, but did you know Uriah the Hittite was one of David's mighty men?
- [33:45]
Josh Bosse
I did know that, yes. And even more fun when you get into the midrash, but nevertheless. Oh, yes, I'm really digressing now.
- [33:52]
Marty Solomon
Yes. Yeah. Even his people that were his day ones, his OG crew, he turned on him. Oh, my goodness. Now, the next image I find even more interesting, especially with what we talked about in the last episode regarding Qohelet not being able to find a partner, a wife. We'll actually hear a Repetition of that phrase not being able to find throughout the rest of this chapter and in the Hebrew, that final image of evil, not saving the ones who do evil. Basically, like if you, I don't know, decide to start a nuclear war, you're not going to be the one guy who survives the nuclear war. The nuke is not going to care that you were the one who wanted to unleash it on the world. You're. You're going to be gone as much as anyone else. But that phrase is evil will not let its master, its baal, escape. And what can BAAL also mean? Husband, baby, husband. And this is kind of the perfect again, like I said, this chunk of text kind of runs. It gives a counter to the previous one about someone, you know, trying to insert wisdom to avert destruction. And here we have this image of someone who just goes along with it, who doesn't realize that there's going to be consequences and how heavy the damage this is going to do on everyone else and doesn't realize when or where. But eventually it comes crashing back on the doer of evil. Because evil, destruction, it doesn't discern between, oh, this is the, the one who cleaved to us and chose us over all the others and married us. No, it'll destroy you too. You're not getting away.
- [35:42]
Brent Billings
This feels like it's targeted to someone specifically. Yeah, it's almost like this is written for Esther. Maybe.
- [35:52]
Marty Solomon
It could be. I will say I have been especially in the next couple chapters, the Esther Remazim really start picking up. There are a lot of references to Esther especially, especially when we get to chapter 10. That one is chock full of them. So yeah, it does feel. And I will say too, this chapter, there are a couple places like this where it's like, man, this feels like there's a Ramis here. I wasn't able to pin one down. Other than Uriah, that's about the best I got. But yeah, it feels like there's more going on here and it might not.
- [36:29]
Josh Bosse
Even be pointed towards something someone in particular. But since El isn't here to defend herself about Doc Hypo, if you're a documentary hypothesis person, this is going to come from the same school as the Deuteronomist as the Northern Kingdom. So Doc Hypo scholars are often going to posit that the Northern Kingdom of Israel was writing, was writing anti king, anti authoritarian law commentary. It's what shows up in Deuteronomy, what's going to show up in the wisdom literature and so it's not directed at necessarily a character or a story, but it is directed at this imperial person we keep seeing. And it keeps showing up in the biblical literature in Esther. But Solomon's going to fit here, which I think is the cheeky cohellate. Yeah, well, this is Solomon. But is it. Or is it actually about Solomon? Like, there's this cheekiness to it that's pointed at that. So if you're a duck hypo person and not everybody is, but if you are that, that does make sense as well. And I don't think you have to be a duck hypo person to appreciate that line of commentary either. I don't think even somebody like Elle would even. Like, she would still appreciate some of the. Some of what's. What the content of what could be said there. Absolutely.
- [37:49]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, definitely.
- [37:50]
Brent Billings
And it's. It's good wisdom in general. Like, there's just this. Who is like the wise, you know, this clear remez to Moses. And then it's like, don't be in a hurry to leave the king's presence if you happen to be in the king's presence. Or it could be like, hey, you're about to be in the king's presence, so don't be in a hurry to leave. But you could read that either way. Since a king's word is going to be supreme, who can say to him, what are you doing? Well, you can, because you stuck around. So you can do that. And sure, if you just want to obey the command, that's going to. That's actually probably going to work pretty well for you. It might be hard to go the other way. So it is good general advice, but it feels like it's a little more targeted maybe.
- [38:34]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, and with that too, I feel like, especially with what you were saying, Marty, there is in verse nine that does feel a little bit northern kingdom of the end part of that about one human exercising authority over another human to his detriment. Like the kind of equality that is being drawn between this Adam over that Adam, just one human over another. And it's to the person under the rule who's experiencing the evil, the destruction, which very much I think fits with kind of the unique position of Judah having been at the beginning, one of the brothers, and now all of a sudden the oppressor of his brothers, which also itself is kind of a little bit of a nod to Yosef. So, yeah, a lot of great thoughts. And I think they're all kind of harmonizing into like you were talking about Marty, like this kind of anti authoritarian and also specifically don't cooperate with that authoritative structure. Try and put some friction in there and create space for people to escape destruction whenever possible and to slow down some of the evil that just. And not just the Northern kingdom, but empires in general. They pump out evil like it's their dang job. And if you can slow that down, that is going to be really important. That's what the heart of wisdom does.
- [40:12]
Josh Bosse
Well, I don't want you to slow down because I'm tracking with you. So keep us moving here.
- [40:17]
Marty Solomon
Verse. Let's see, 10, 13.
- [40:20]
Brent Billings
Then too, I saw the wicked buried. Those who used to come and go from the holy place and receive praise in the city where they did this. This too is meaningless. When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people's hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong. Although a wicked person who commits a hundred crimes may live a long time, I know that it will go better with those who fear God, who are reverent before him. Yet, because the wicked do not fear God, it will not go well with them and their days will not lengthen like a shadow.
- [40:52]
Marty Solomon
The first verse there, this image of the wicked being buried. There are a lot of disagreements and honestly, looking at the Hebrew, even if you just glance at it, it is very str. Strange. This image of the wicked person being buried and coming out of and going into the holy place. And what's interesting is I can see where they got the word for praise, but the actual word there is to forget. So in Alter's version, he takes the word because what it literally says is, in thus I have seen the wicked be buried and coming from the holy place, walking and forgotten in the city where they did these things. Also, this is hevel, mere breath, emptiness. So the way that Alter reconstructs this, which I tend to lean toward, is he says, I've seen wicked people being buried, but also not just that their burial procession, like coming from the holy place. And probably not the temple altar says more likely a synagogue. So like, you know, this person is being honored by the whole community. And then he interprets the word for walking as standing in for the righteous person. The one who walks is forgotten in the place where he did these things. And I think that makes a little bit more sense. But either way, the general idea is that he has seen the wicked buried, but not in the sense that we think of that like, ah, finally, they've gotten their due. No, you know, in this cultural context, being given a proper burial in A honoring proper burial is huge. It's massive. I mean, this is the great tragedy of Rachel's death. They were on the road. They weren't able to give her a proper burial. Her bones weren't gathered in. So she is, you know, in their understanding, like some angry ghost out in the desert, just alone and not able to gather with her family. So this is, again, talking about, again, this individualist lens of, like, the person who is evil does not necessarily see that consequence themselves, even after their death. You know, the record is not necessarily set straight. And. And that's because this is a God who is slow to anger. The sentence against wrongdoing isn't carried out quickly. And I really like the Hebrew in this verse when it talks about the hearts of the sons of humanity. The phrase there are full of evil, like overflowing. It just tells them, like, yeah, you can get away with doing all this stuff. Now in verse 12, there is a pretty clear remez, I think, with the specifics of if someone sins a hundred times and their life being lengthened. This reminds me of the story of Isaac, who, after he had lengthened his days in the land of the Philistines, he produced a crop that was a hundredfold. And what's interesting is that in that story we kind of have a similar inversion of the moral order where, you know, here we're talking about, oh, the wicked are being given all these fancy burials and the righteous are just forgotten. People are going in the way of evil because it seems like that's actually the better paycheck. Crime does pay if you get away with it. And in the story of Isaac, he does the same thing Avraham does of hiding his relationship with his wife because he is afraid that he is going to be killed and his wife taken from him. And when this is discovered by the king, the king berates him and says, how could you do this to us? Someone might have taken your wife and then we'd be guilty. And then they send him away, and it is after this that he gets the hundredfold crop. So I think the Ramez there is just to highlight the kind of, you know, treating Isaac like the bad guy because he knew that people there would kill him for his wife. And the king being like, dude, I can't believe you put us at risk of stealing your wife and, you know, committing a sin when, you know they were. They would have been committing a greater sin against him. Anywho, that's a little bit more of a minor one, but that's the best I Could feel there. This whole chunk feels like there's more Ramez. Like the image, that opening image of the wicked being buried and going out from the holy place like that. That feels like it's gotta be something. But I came up with nothing.
- [46:02]
Josh Bosse
Yeah, my brain keeps trying. I mean, you have in our notes. There's a question mark surrounding Ahab. Like, up above, my brain was trying to do Jericho, which I believe is Ahab. Doesn't Ahab rebuild Jericho?
- [46:12]
Marty Solomon
I think it's someone else who rebuilds it. But it is during his reign.
- [46:15]
Josh Bosse
It's during his reign. Anyway. Yeah, that's like. That's the story that keeps coming to mind, but I can't link it up.
- [46:20]
Marty Solomon
The Ahab connection I was thinking of is that specifically because he repents. God says, okay, the destruction I said I would bring, I won't bring it until after you. I'll bring it onto your son, not you. Which is again, like, you know, you don't have to see the consequences of your actions. The consequences are still coming, but you just won't see that.
- [46:40]
Josh Bosse
Yeah.
- [46:41]
Marty Solomon
And. Yeah, I mean. Oh, man. Yeah. Actually, this is where I probably am in danger of nitpicking some of the translation stuff. And you know what? I won't do that. Because the main point is the same that the timeline on individual sins, individual evil, people, when they get away with what they've done, that kind of reinforces people's desire to do evil. And again, here it seems like we've shifted to talking about God's judgment and us not knowing things, which is kind of a very different topic from where we started, of being able to intervene and stop something.
- [47:18]
Josh Bosse
I was wondering about that, Josh. Like, on one hand, it feels like a shift. I'm trying to think of what it would be like for them. Like, I'm projecting some of my own paradigm. But in the world that I've, like, we're talking about, like, staying in the room, hearing a bad word, averting bad words. There's this other part of my Christian modern evangelical brain that goes, okay, yeah, totally, but at least if I don't, like, they'll get their comeuppance. Which this chapter is, like, going. Well, not really. Like, you can't just say, well, don't worry. It will all be dealt with in the abstract. Like, God's judgment will come. Like the author's. Like, I mean, not like you think it's going to. Not like you want it to. Not in a way that's gonna seem just so you do need to stay in the room. Like this stuff does matter.
- [48:02]
Marty Solomon
Absolutely. And that's where I think all of this is just the overflow of that second scenario. If you just go along with it.
- [48:08]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [48:09]
Marty Solomon
That it's like it's going to hurt lots of people. And when will it be brought to justice? You don't know. You might even be one of the ones caught up in the destruction. You don't know. It might be your kid. Are you okay with that? And I think all of this goes back to like what you were saying, where it is hard to stand in that gap. I mean, think about your Moshe, right? And you're not just challenging a king, you're challenging the king of the universe and saying, you know what, God, I think maybe you're being a little too harsh and a little too angry and you need to remember that you're a God of compassion. So I'm going to edit what I tell to the people. I'm going to again, kind of like that image of Moshe veiling his face. Like I'm going to limit and decide what I speak with God's authority. And I'm going to give space for things to shift and the attitude to change so that we don't land on this disaster and everything that comes after this is like, not only will this destruction be far reaching, but when evil happens and the people who commit that evil don't have to suffer for it, then that actually gives birth to more evil. Because then people will see that and go, oh, I could just do that too. That looks a lot easier. Let's just keep doing this oppression thing. Let's just keep exploiting people. Let's just keep doing violence to people. We'll get away with it just like this person did. And that is the real, or I shouldn't say the real tragedy, but that is it takes a wise mind to realize like this evil isn't just the destruction that will come from this one word. It will have rippling effects that will also start other cycles of evil and violence and destruction. Yeah. So 10 out of 10, Marty, you totally nailed it there. And actually, I think we should just move to this last chunk of the text. Verse 14.
- [50:08]
Brent Billings
There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth. The righteous who get what the wicked deserve, and the wicked who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless. So I commend the enjoyment of life. Because there is nothing better for a person under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany them in their toil all the days of the life God has given them under the sun. When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe the labor that is done on earth, people getting no sleep, day or night, then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it.
- [50:55]
Marty Solomon
Well, one thing I want to point out, first of all, is that opening image, which you know, is exactly in line with what we've been talking about. The righteous getting what the evil deserve, the evil getting what the righteous deserve. What's interesting is that both those words are in the plural, the evil plural, getting what the righteous plural deserve, and vice versa. And what's also interesting is that word for receiving is the word nagat, which it can mean to touch or to strike. And it is most commonly used, at least in the Torah and think throughout Tanakh. But it is most commonly used to talk about a plague. And I think this is, again, kind of very fitting with the exile conversation. You have a bunch of evil, and it's rotting and festering in society, and then it spreads like the plague. And guess what? Rain falls on the just and the unjust. There are righteous people who are getting what, reaping what the evil people sowed, and vice versa. And because of this, again, it is even more crucial for us to, when we are, you know, find ourselves in that place of Esther, of Moshe, of whoever, to be in the room where the decision is being made to stand up. Not in the sense of being like, how dare you Stop this right now. Like, this is not Qohelet saying, like, you know, become a martyr for the cause or do anything big and flashy. He's saying, no, no, no, no. If you are in that room, don't remove yourself from the situation. Don't try and preserve your own moral sense. Don't just leave because you feel gross in the pit of your stomach. Say something, work with it. It will look like you're compromising with Hitler or whatever, and that will probably not be a good look for you. But who cares if you can avert disaster? If you can talk someone out of doing something destructive, do that. Your silence will only usher in more destruction. And ultimately that, you know, using that image of plague, where it's like, yeah, plague doesn't really discern. I mean, outside of the 10 plagues, which were miraculous precisely because they did discern between one group and another group, but outside of that, plagues do not discriminate they hit everyone equally. Regardless of what you believe or how righteous you are or any of that.
- [53:31]
Josh Bosse
I just can't take it anymore. We would be remiss if we didn't at least throw some acknowledgement. We keep saying in the room and you have to quote Hamilton and start singing the room where it happened the room where it happened I wanna be.
- [53:48]
Marty Solomon
In the room where it happens the room where it happens, happens I wanna be in the room where it happens the room where it happens Just gotta.
- [53:59]
Josh Bosse
Be in the room where it happened. You know what I'm saying?
- [54:02]
Marty Solomon
And but the other thing is that, you know, we, we tend to think of. Yeah, like that, that big secret room where, you know, everyone's wearing weird masks and stuff. But like, it doesn't have to be that, that big and you know, Esther sized of a situation. It can also be, you know, your friends, it can be a business owner. It can be anyone who is. This could also be someone just ruining their own life. It doesn't necessarily even have to do with a pure authority figure. Although with everything we just said, it is most important of a obligation for us as Christians, as followers of Christ to use this kind of wisdom when we are in those positions. When we are in, like you said, the room where it happens.
- [54:50]
Josh Bosse
Well, oh, how it switches the. Like. This is one of what I feel like is like one of the more nihilistic portions of Ecclesiastes. But what we've done is we've spun that on its head. This is far from nihilism. This is a call to activism. This is not like, oh well, I guess the wicked are just gonna get there. It's like a. Yeah. If you do nothing.
- [55:08]
Marty Solomon
Yep.
- [55:08]
Josh Bosse
If you. There's a. This is a very active. This is not nihilistic at all.
- [55:12]
Marty Solomon
Yeah. And in fact that verse in particular, verse 14, it. It's bookended by the statement of these both being hevel. There's hevel which is done. The righteous get what the evil deserve and the evil get what the righteous deserve. Hey, guess what? That's also hevel. That's also mere breath. And I think it's easy to, again like you said, to hear in the invocation of those terms, like this nihilism. But I think what Qohelet is saying is like, yeah, guess what? The world is upside down. Oh, bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. Guess what? It's meaningless to focus on that part of it because again, on that individualistic lens, there is no accounting that we can actually observe that we can see and mark down for ourselves. That is irrelevant. So I think rather than Kohelet looking at that situation and saying, oh, it's all pointless, I think Kohelet is saying, don't look at that because it's pointless. It's pointless to try and say, oh, this person did war crimes, but they gotta, you know, end their days in comfort and, you know, surrounded by their loved ones and they got a big parade thrown in their honor. Like, it's easy to look at that and to become demoralized and to become nihilistic. And I think on top of just giving a solid wisdom on what pushing back against evil looks like, Kohelet is also kind of telling us, like, on an emotional level, like, don't get lost in the fact that the cause and effect on an individual level does not add up to us at all. Like, that is a dead end is what I hear Qohelet saying. And that's why it makes so much sense to follow that with saying, like, hey, you know, what is important? Being in the present moment, resting, enjoying, you know, it's literally Sabbath, seeing the goodness of creation that God has given us and letting that be enough. And what I love here is that in verse 15, when Qohelet is talking about enjoyment, saint. And there's a word that she inserts here that I don't believe has been used prior, where it says, in my translation, at least this will stand by him in his struggle in the days of his life, which God has given him under the sun. And I actually like the Hebrew word there better. It's the word lava, which is actually where the word or the name Levi, Levi comes from. And it means to be joined, to be attached to it, be adhered like the goodness that you see in your life. You shouldn't ignore that and just pay attention to all the evil going on and how it's rampaging across the land and all the good people caught in the crossfire and all the bad people getting away with it. No, that is the distraction. That is the thing. That is nothingness. What is important is seeing the goodness around you, because that will stick with you, that will stay with you even when you are in the room and are able to take strength from that groundedness in the fact that creation is still good. I know Qohelet's not saying that, but I think that's the truth behind the truth. Creation is still good, and you don't know that if you just spend all day reading about politics and thinking about how to challenge Power and authority. You can really easily lose track of the reality of God's presence right where you're at. And I think this is crucial to understand. Without this piece, this piece that Qohelet always comes back to, I think almost every single chapter has some sort of reference to this. There is nothing that is good aside from enjoying what God has given you. And verse 16, we have a really interesting phrase of, you know, Qohelet going back, reminding us about how she has devoted her heart to no wisdom, to Da' at wisdom, to understand it personally, experientially. And in looking at everything that's done under the sun. And this is where I think your translation Brent said that it's people, you know, not sleeping day or night. Again, this is one of those things where there's a lot of disagreement in all the translations I've looked at, but I kind of side with Alter on this one. He says that it is Qohelet talking about how she has gone without sleep day or night. And the reason I think that is because I think this is also a ramez, because this word for sleep is not the common one. And the notable place I found it used is in the story of Jaq twice. Once when he is sleeping at Bethel and sees the vision of God and the gates of heaven and the angels going up and down, and he says, oh, I can't believe I was just sleeping on this place. Like it was just a random camping spot. And, wow, it's the house of God. The other time is when he is confronting Laban about how much Laban has taken advantage of him. And he's talked about all the work that he's done. And he says, by day, the heat consumed me in the frost, by night and sleep fled from my eyes. And that pattern of referencing day and night and sleep not being in the eye. Here Qohelet says, my eye did not see sleep day or night. And when we're talking about wrangling with evil authority figures, Yaakov and Laban feels very much in that vein. And it kind of, to me, loops around to the very beginning of, like, you know, this image of Moshe, like, Yaakov having to be clever and a little bit tricky and wise in terms of, you know, what do we say? What do we not say? What I love about this is that appealing to this, to the figure of Yaakov, who is, you know, the consummate, you know, wrestling with strong forces, right? Like, that's what his new name means, Israel. Wrestle with things that are Stronger than you. And that's what Qohelet is challenging us to do. To have that Yaakov level of chutzpah, to have that Yaakov level of like, you know what? We can be creative, we can see a way out of this. We can maybe twist this really evil thing to end up being something that is doing good for everyone. But then at the very end, and I feel like out of all the chapters of Ecclesiastes, this is one of the strangest because we have this kind of abrupt ending where Qohelet talks about having seen every work of God and saying, you can't discover it. Even if you try really, really hard. You can't discover it. Even if the wise person says they know it or alter translates it. Interesting. Even if the wise person intends to know it, he can't discover it. And this brought me to a really interesting thought about some of the longer term thinking of Qohelet. Because Qohelet starts this by saying, I saw every work of God. I saw everything that God's done done. Which is like, wait, hold up. I thought that's what we couldn't do. But when I looked back, Qohelet makes a distinction where we can see everything God does. We just can't find it or literally, like, grasp it. Even if we're just a person's. You know, you can't find it by accident. You can't find it on purpose. Even if you try really hard, even if you're wise and it becomes your soul, your soul desire to grasp it, you. You can't discover it. And again, I think what this goes back to is the messiness of this process, which fits so perfectly with the invocation of Yaakov, of, like, there isn't just some perfect, clean answer that you can give that satisfies everyone. That makes Esau happy, that makes Isaac happy, that makes Laban happy, that makes your mom happy, that makes God happy. That just doesn't exist. It does not exist. You have to wrestle in the mud. And you are there not to just be a perfect little cog in the machine. God wants you to wrestle with. You know, when God gives the evil word, right? I don't think, you know, if we zoom out from that Moshe situation. I think God presented him with that stern face that we talked about because he wanted to see Moshe fight for compassion. He had seen Moshe stand up to evil. He had seen him kill someone for beating a slave. He knew Mosheh had that. And I think God wanted to see, like, will you fight to save Israel, fight for compassion and mercy. And that is the thing that God wants us to see. God knows it's going to be messy, and it isn't going to be resolved with some simple answer that we can just put in our pocket. We are being exhorted to do that anyway. Because if we don't, if we stay silent, then the cycle is going to continue and more evil and destruction is going to pile up. And that is just as crucial as us building a life around what we talked about in the last chapter of what we build that will go beyond ourselves. A heavy, challenging episode. How do we fight the power? How do we confront the evil word?
- [65:14]
Josh Bosse
Well, Jacob. Yeah, I'm still wrestling through the. Didn't even mean to, but I did. Jacob is really the great example for that, because what a messy life. And he ends up being that perfect. Yeah, Yeah. I love you. At one point, you made this passing statement where you said, we're not meant to just be perfect little cogs in the machine, which is really what this chapter is calling us to. It's what wisdom calls us to. It is a heavy word. It's heavy because it's unresolved. It's heavy because how do you make it fit? It's heavy because it's a little. It's a little messy. But that is. That is wisdom. At least on a deeper level, that's wisdom.
- [65:54]
Marty Solomon
Well, that's all I got. And I think this is also actually one final thing I want to say. In this chapter, we talked about it as we were going through it, but that transition from talking about what we can do to stop things and just the way that evil can run away and cause all these factors after we've missed the boat, after we haven't stood up. There's a lot of what Qohelet talks about here that I feel like is disempowering from our view of individualism, of like, oh, I want to be like Jesus and save everything.
- [66:28]
Josh Bosse
Yes.
- [66:28]
Marty Solomon
I want to get up on that cross and do the perfect thing at the perfect moment to redeem everything. And that's just not our job, not in our capacity. And the powerlessness we feel is like. It bothers Qohelet, too, but not from the standpoint of her thinking, oh, I could save everything. But just reconciling with the fact that, yeah, it sucks. We are dealing with consequences from other people's actions. Righteous people are suffering from what evil people did. And that should not turn us toward this nihilism or feeling depressed because I'm not as important and as much of the main character as I wish I was. It should turn us instead to okay if I'm ever in a situation where I see that I have to, I have to, you know, pump the brakes, I have to try and maneuver out of it like it it makes that heart more important and I think that's really important for us to hear in this day and age.
- [67:24]
Josh Bosse
Absolutely. Well said.
- [67:26]
Brent Billings
All right. Well that will do it for today. You can find more details about the show@baymaudiscipleship.com if you want to get in touch with us, use the contact page. Check out the news page for the latest of what we have going on. If you want to support our work, everything we do is made possible by listeners like you. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for joining us on this journey. Thanks for joining us on the Behemoth podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon.