← The BEMA Podcast
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- [00:00]
Marty Solomon
Foreign. This is the bamaw podcast with Marty Solomon. I'm his co host, Brent Billings. Today, Josh Bossay and I join Kohelet as she draws us closer to a conclusion.
- [00:15]
Brent Billings
Yes. Which. What a dangerous thing to say in a book like this.
- [00:22]
Marty Solomon
I mean, we're getting there. We still have a little bit of ground to cover.
- [00:25]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes, indeed.
- [00:26]
Marty Solomon
You know what we forgot to mention in the last episode, though, Josh?
- [00:29]
Brent Billings
We. What's that?
- [00:30]
Marty Solomon
That you have a new audio setup.
- [00:31]
Brent Billings
That's true. If I am sounding more luscious. If these tones are. If these tones are. I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever do any ASMR stuff, but now I probably could.
- [00:46]
Marty Solomon
Probably, could. Probably, could. I haven't done any editing on the new audio yet, so we'll see exactly how things shake out, but hopefully it's all positive for everyone.
- [00:54]
Brent Billings
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And certainly it will lighten the load on how much Brent has to, you know, put some makeup on top of my old audio.
- [01:08]
Marty Solomon
All right, well, we don't need to delay any further on the technical details. Let's get into the text, Josh.
- [01:14]
Brent Billings
But wait, before we get into the text, we have to do what we always do. We have to remember that this book is a difficult one for us to hear. It's philosophy, but it's not Western philosophy. This is philosophy that is coming from an Eastern culture and an Eastern person who nevertheless has a radical viewpoint that is not quite contiguous with the culture she exists in. Qohelet is. Well, for one thing I have been arguing is a woman, and that is an important piece of context. But not only that she is, to some degree an individualist or employs an individualistic lens, as we've seen throughout this book. She is not talking about the partnership between Israel and God. She is not talking about the fate of the community. She's talking about the fate of individuals, the way we as individuals suffer and find success and what will come of us individually and what our legacies and our futures will be. This is important to remember that this is not the kind of individualism that we have that just we kind of have from the roots up. This is an individualism applied over someone who grew up in a more communal context, with a communal understanding, and also is doing all that within exile, which is probably part of where she gets that lens. And some academics will even argue that there is some Hellenistic Greek philosophy influence here, which I don't think is necessarily untrue, but definitely not employed the same way our own Hellenistic ancestors. In terms of how Greek Philosophy and other non Eastern philosophers have influenced our modern day thought. So some things to chew on there. And also we have to remember again that this is all taking the data set that Qohelet is considering, concerning herself with is the material world, the physical world. This is not. At no point does Qohelet totally rely on what we might consider purely spiritual purposes. To the extent that she talks about that she does, like we talk about in episode zero, she's not arguing about whether God exists, that's just kind of a given for her. But in terms of what God is up to, how God approaches things, this is something she is much more willing to say. Who knows, God might do something that is quote unquote evil, or as we've said before, destructive to you. And even if you're righteous, how can we as individuals wrap our arms around this? This is much of what we talk about, but more importantly is how Qohelet reasons. She is not, again in sharp contrast to Hellenistic and Western thought. She is not putting out proposition after proposition to reason her way to a third proposition. That is not how she advances the argument. She uses concrete metaphors that we wrestle our way through this. We turn, we look. And all of these are not just set dressing. These are actually how we are moving through these ideas. And it's through adding tension upon tension, adding new question and new difficulty on top of each other. And this is very important for today's episode because once again we have come to a third chapter. Every third chapter, as I've talked about or as I've argued, seems to be on this, you know, on this reading through of Qohelet where she kind of takes everything that was said up to this point, particularly the last two chapters where, you know, in chapter seven and eight has been focused on the tension between the good name, a good reputation, and the contrast between that and the evil word. Something that is about to bring a lot of destruction and how we wrestle with that and try to stop evil before it happens, stop destruction before it has all of its compounding overflow effects. And these are being now kind of taken together, but not to resolve them as we would think when we talk about, you know, thesis, antithesis, synthesis. These are being synthesized to elucidate a new level of tension that will then bring us into the next sphere of looking at the past, looking at the future, looking at the tension. So with all that being said, let's dive into chapter nine and man, this is going to be a little bit of a change of pace as we Alluded to in the opening. And with that Brent, why don't you just read that very first verse?
- [05:46]
Marty Solomon
So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them.
- [05:59]
Brent Billings
I like that. That's actually not that bad of a translation. I don't have a lot of bones to pick there.
- [06:05]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, I was looking at a few different ones because I feel like there's almost. It seems like there's supposed to be this dichotomy set up, but it's like, shouldn't the righteous and the wise be in the same category? Yes, but it feels like it should be like the righteous and the unrighteous or the. The wise and the unwise or something. But it's like coming at everything from one side.
- [06:26]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes. And I think again, this goes back to the fact that Kohel, this is not just some over abstracted Western analysis where everything is binaries, everything is. Well, there's this side and there's that side.
- [06:38]
Marty Solomon
Yep, you got me. I'm still Western.
- [06:41]
Brent Billings
No, this is a perfect illustration. I'm so glad you pointed this out because. Yeah, like, from the beginning, her agenda is wisdom. She talks all about, like, I gathered up wisdom. I just absorbed it from everyone I was watching, and now I want to know it for myself. And in doing so, she encountered all these troubles, like, okay, is wisdom actually better than foolishness? And she kind of wrestles through that and ends up determining like, yeah, wisdom is better than foolishness, but that doesn't change the fact that we all die. So really, what is the difference? Is it a meaningful difference? Is it substantive? Yada, yada, yada. So in this opening, we see that asymmetry that the real question we're talking about is, does righteousness and wisdom matter? Does it actually do anything? Or is it just always gonna be swept away like a sandcastle on the beach? And this is where man. And part of me wishes I had El on this episode. Cause I found a bunch of little weird Hebrew things. Sometimes they're like words that aren't used very often. Sometimes they're words that are very interesting for Qohelet to use. But yeah, let's dive in. There's a lot to unpack in this one Ver. First of all, after talking about Qohed says, I've given all this to my heart, all these things. She says to I forget what your translation says. Mine here says to examine it all. What does yours say?
- [08:03]
Marty Solomon
Reflected.
- [08:03]
Brent Billings
Reflected. Okay. And that's not bad. According to Jecenius, this is related to a word used all the way back in chapter three when it's talking about us being tested by God, whether we will see that we are but animals, which is, you know, if we remember back, that is a very strange and a troubling question that leads to the next chapters looking at good and evil and how those confuse and make this question of wisdom rather difficult. And in fact, even I kind of want to bring that back to mind because I was looking back at that phrase back in chapter three, verse 18. If you want to look at it while you're listening here, in chapter three, verse 18, it talks about God testing us. And this word for testing is specifically to test for purity. And it says, if I'm remembering this correctly, that God is testing us for purity if we will see that we are but animals. And then after that phrase, it says them to themselves, that humans are animals, them to themselves. So I wonder if, looking back at that, I don't know whether I said it all the way back in episode three of this series, but I wonder if, especially being connected to that point here in the text, whether this idea of testing for purity is not in this kind of maybe overly cynical Kohelet voice, that sometimes it's a little easy to hear if what she's actually getting at back then and now referencing is, will we see that, you know, the way we treat each other can make us like animals or put us in a state where we are not all that different from animals, and that has nothing to do with necessarily our inherent nature. Because in the very same chapter, she talks about God placing eternity in our heart. So again, this is not a proposition that she makes of, like, yep, we are just animals. Move on. Like, this is a tension of, hey, like, we make ourselves like animals the way we are to each other as human beings. And now she's talking about her testing this idea about the righteous and the wise. Like, is there some substance here to being righteous and wise? Is there something more here?
- [10:22]
Marty Solomon
Okay, so I misspoke. It wasn't the reflected word. It's the concluded word that you're talking about. You're talking about boor.
- [10:30]
Brent Billings
Yes, Bor.
- [10:31]
Marty Solomon
Okay, yeah. So that is translated as concluded. The reflected is natan, which I think we talked about at some point, but it's very common word. And I was like, wait a second, what's going on? So it's the other word.
- [10:42]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes. Anytime she says, I set my heart or I set my mind to this, that's that word natan. And the way I said it when I was just looking at it is I gave it to my heart because that's the root word of natan is to give. But reflected is a good way of translating that into this context. But going back to Bor, that word for to, as you said, to conclude, or my translation said to explain or. No, no, to examine. Pardon me, alter translates it as to sort out, which I think captures that idea of like testing for purity, like sorting the pure gold from the impurities. Like that. I like those. And honestly, all of those are fine. I don't have a problem with the translation there. But it is not a super common word.
- [11:27]
Marty Solomon
It's only the one time in all of Tanakh, apparently.
- [11:30]
Brent Billings
Yes, although the root is used a lot of times, but yes, in this particular form, it's the only time it's used in all of Tanakh.
- [11:37]
Marty Solomon
They have a special word for that, right? A word only appears one time in a given text.
- [11:42]
Brent Billings
Oh, yeah, it's some super long Greek word. Heptat something. Oh, man. Yeah, some smart person out there is now shouting at their. Their phone that, you know, it's. It's this. But hold on.
- [11:59]
Marty Solomon
Sorry, let me find it, let me find it. Hey, packs Legomenon.
- [12:03]
Brent Billings
Ah, there we go. I knew it started with an H.
- [12:06]
Marty Solomon
I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but I was just. I was. I came across that word recently as I was reading Heiser and he was talking about a couple of those instances.
- [12:14]
Brent Billings
But yeah, anyway, yes, and that is trickier with Hebrew because a lot of things share roots. And so this one, I was going by Jesenius, who says that this word, which is technically, or at least according to the resource we have in blue letter A Hapax Legomenon, but is connected to the same root word that the boor test for purity is back in chapter three and is used throughout the prophets. I'm not sure if it's used in Torah at all, but definitely in the prophets, talking about testing and purity and all that, that's the first thing here. Again, a lot to unpack in this chapter or in this one verse. As we can see, we haven't got past the very first phrase that we are talking about. You know, that Qohelet is trying to see, like, what is there of substance in righteousness, justice, or, sorry, righteousness and wisdom and righteous people and wise people being in the hand of God. What's also interesting here is that there is another addition. It says Righteous people, wise people and their deeds or their acts. I don't know what yours says, Brent, but what's interesting is that man talking about deeds and acts and works like that is all through Qohelet talks about that, but the book is chock a block full of them. But this is a very rare version of that because this comes from the word avad, which means to be a servant, to serve, which was really only ever used in Qohelet in chapter five, looking at oppression and like the ubiquity of wealth and power and hierarchy leading to oppression, somewhat inevitably or seemingly inevitably, that is very interesting to me because most of the time when it's talking about us and our works and deeds, it talks about struggle and toil and labor and works. This is the first time in this context it has used this idea of service. And I think it's very fitting here. And also, again, seems to kind of. We seem to be rounding the corner and getting towards something a little more intimate, just like we were kind of talking about with Elle back in chapter seven, where there seems to be like, we're getting a little bit more to maybe we could call it the center of the chiasm, so to speak, even though that's not really what we're doing. But in terms of we're getting closer to the heart of the matter. This is their service, the righteous and the wise. Does their service matter? And that the object of examination here is that the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. And that certainly bears connection to these questions of like, hey, what happens to the righteous? Because they don't always get a happy ending. And the wise, they could just be ignored. And they can be at the wrong place at the wrong time and lose it all for no reason. And then we have this final chunk that talks about knowing Daa, love and hatred. Now, what's weird about this verse, and I'll speak about this very, very briefly, because I don't want to get lost in the Hebrew. But if you're reading a translation where this looks different, it's because the Hebrew is weird, because we have the first clause, which is pretty simple. I've been examining all this stuff. The righteous, the wise, in the hand of God. Then in the Hebrew, it moves immediately from that to say, also love, also hate. There is no knowing among human beings what lies before them or everything that is before them. So does that also love and also hate attached to the first clause, talking about what is in God's hand is coillette Saying you don't know whether love or hate will be the response from God's hand, Or is it saying that love and hate are things that we cannot fully understand because we can't understand anything that lies before us? Now, I am partial to the latter. Not because I know Hebrew so well that I can just tell that to you, but because when I look into how the Jewish authorities translate it and how Robert Alter translates it, they tend to see it that way. But I. And this is where I think, again, l would be a great voice to have speaking into this. But it also. It makes sense on two levels. One, the people who tend to know the language best are on that side. But two, this pairing of love and hatred. Kohelet has not talked a lot about love and hatred, right? Like, we've talked about good and bad things happening. We've talked about a lot of opposites. But love and hatred really only comes up in my memory in one other chapter, which is chapter three that we've already talked about, right? A time to love and a time to hate. And if we remember that episode well, we would remember that those are part of the last and kind of in the chiasm of that, you know, a time for this, a time for that poetry. It is the last chunk that does not fit into the chiasm and in fact has this kind of inverted parallel structure of its own within that single verse and is what points us directly at the state of exile where hatred and war are in the center and love and peace are on the outside. And so it ends with peace. We talked about this back then. You can go back and re. Listen to that episode if you want to, but I think that that seems to go a lot better with this idea of we don't know what's in front of us, particularly when we're in exile. We don't even have the capacity to understand the depth of love and hate that exists within us. Right? Particularly when you're in exile, you are put into a life situation where your context has a huge impact on you. It is not just like, oh, hey, you can grow up and be whatever you want to be. It's like, no, there are a lot of constraints on your life. There are a lot of realities that are, for lack of a better term, they're oppressive and they kind of predetermine a lot of what options are on the table for you. So what you love and hate is in particular going to be driven by factors way outside of your control. And again, the not knowing what awaits you is a huge theme of that whole. A time for this, a time for that. We talked about this, right? Like when you're in exile, the question of, hey, do we start a family? Like that's a much bigger and more serious question in that context. And both choices have very tangible, meaningful outcomes, either for good or for ill. So that's why I like the translations that lump that in with the knowledge part that we even our own love and hate, we don't, you know, these things that are very personal and intimate to us, we don't even really know what those are or where they come from. And we certainly don't know what lies ahead of us. Any thoughts on that, Brent?
- [19:38]
Marty Solomon
I'm just thinking about how that seems to be a continuing theme throughout the scriptures. Like you have Jesus. I mean, Jesus doesn't even really give you the love option. He's like, no, in this world you will have trouble.
- [19:48]
Brent Billings
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [19:50]
Marty Solomon
Paul wrestles with that idea of, you know, what do you, what kind of decisions do you make about your life based on the hardships that you might have coming? That one's a little bit more in the Ecclesiastes side as far as like, you don't know what's ahead.
- [20:06]
Brent Billings
And again, if we remember chapter three, what's on the other side from love and hate? It's war and peace. Are things about to break into war or is there peace around the corner? Boy, I can't think of any current events that might make that relevant. But if you're in the middle of that kind of a situation, what do you do and what is your righteousness and wisdom? What can it actually do for you? Can it thwart these things? Can it be meaningful in that context? This is what Qohelet is wrestling with. Again, want to appreciate this here because I used to. At one point in my life I entertained the idea of getting a degree in philosophy. So I've read my fair share of philosophy and not just the easy stuff. You know, Kierkegaard's my guy. I love that dude. Not. Not an easy read. And I will say that like, even though this doesn't deal with like complicated abstract concepts like a lot of Western philosophy, when we really tangle with these questions and are committed to finding an answer and not just hand waving it away because it's existing on the other side, globe and in a different hemisphere, these are similarly difficult to wrestle with questions if we are committed to actually having a good answer that meets the what the situation demands. So what do we do with all this. Brent, let's keep reading.
- [21:24]
Marty Solomon
All share a common destiny. The righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean. Those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good, so with the sinful. As it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun. The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil, and there is madness in their hearts while they live. And afterward they join the dead. Anyone who is among the living has hope. Even a live dog is better off than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished. Never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
- [22:20]
Brent Billings
Man, some more heaviness here.
- [22:23]
Marty Solomon
I do get my. My dichotomy, though, my western comparison between the two. But then it all ends in the same spot. So what is the distinction?
- [22:33]
Brent Billings
Uh huh. Yeah, there's some interesting parallels here too. We have the kind of. Bringing back some of the kind of lopsided dichotomies we were talking about before, we have this. Our hearts are full of evil. Insanity is in our hearts or madness, which, if we remember, El also talked about how we could very easily read this as praise. Our hearts are full of evil, but also praise is in our hearts throughout our lives. And then we go to the dead. Like, either way, there is a kind of tension of absurdity that Qohelet is pulling out here. But again, all under this umbrella of death is coming. And even as she talks about, as long as you're alive, you have hope. Even a living dog is better than a dead lion, which for those who are unaware of the context, in ancient cultures, dogs are scavengers. You know, they're kind of despised creatures, you know, like, you know, carrion eaters, vultures, things like that. They're not seen in a positive light. People do not appreciate how cute they are, as we know today. So, yeah, so it's like, it's like saying, oh, better to be a living, a living worm, a living maggot than. Than a dead lion, you know, this grand, majestic creature. But then when Kohelet gets into, you know, what is the benefit of being alive? Oh, you know you're gonna die. What a consolation prize. But again, this idea of like, you know, while you're alive, something is still active, something good could happen. And what's interesting is we have this Parallel between verses 5 and 6 of the Dead have nothing. They don't know anything, and they no longer have a reward. They don't. And I think that word was used. I forget which chapter it was in, but that was used, I think, in the passage. Was it in chapter four, maybe, where it was talking about two are better than one because they have a good reward. I think that's where it's used. But anyway, I don't know if there's some meaning to that, but I think it's interesting that in verse five, it talks about reward in verse six, even though a lot of translations put both as having a share, in verse 5 it talks about a reward, whereas in verse 6 it uses a different word, chalek, which means to like. It's a share that you inherit. So there is a different context there, different word usage there. And what's interesting is it talks about there's no reward anymore because their memory is forgotten. So the way, as I was reading it, the way that I'm kind of differentiating this, is that the dead are. They're not involved in what's going on anymore, even what we might consider to be. We think about our lives after we're gone. We think about people remembering us, and maybe they're encouraged to do the right thing. Maybe a podcast episode that I put out makes someone do the right thing instead of the wrong thing. And in that sense, there is reward that pours in from that to me and what my name means. But at a certain point, my memory fades off and podcasts are the same as clay tablets are, where it's like, yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. No one's looking at that. Once you're forgotten, there's no more reward. You aren't part of the game, so to speak. You're out. And then in the second, we have that everything, our love and our hate, like we talked about above, their love and their hate have perished. What else is added here? Their zeal or their jealousy? Yours said. And as we might know, I know we've talked about this on the podcast before, that word is kanah, which can mean both jealousy and zeal. But interestingly, I believe this word is only used one other time in Qohelet, talking about how it is our jealousy of our neighbor that gets us to, you know, get up and work hard, build a house, try and have nice things. Because we look around us and say, oh, wow, they did this. I bet I could do that, too. And you know, I bet I can cook steak a little better than my neighbor. Let me get a grill and figure out how to do this. Isn't that nice? But even that, all of our striving, all of our efforts to improve, even that vanishes and in the scope of history doesn't matter. And here we get the changed word of Asherah Chelik. We don't anymore have a. We aren't inheriting anything from what's done under the sun. Like, we just. There is nothing left there for us. It's all gone. It's all passed away again. There's this horizon of. Of meaninglessness once death comes. And like Qohelet is, in a way mourning, this is the great evil, which, again, we have to remember, evil means destruction, primarily. It's secondarily about a moral issue, primarily about destruction. So the great evil is the great destruction, that at some point, everything that our life means, if we're looking at it in a purely physical sense, at some point, the entire substance of what my life means will be rubbed away under the friction of the sands of time. It'll be worn out and gone. And I don't really have much more to say about that other than that just kind of makes sense. Again, this is not new territory, and that's fitting. With this chapter. We're reviewing everything we've talked about. But this is important because the one good side of the equation and the tension that we've been talking about in the last two episodes was about having a good name. And here Qohelet is remembering that the veil of death obscures that with given enough time. And that is sobering and will bring us to the new tension that Qohelet is going to focus on to come. And with that, unless you have a brilliant thought or observation, Brent.
- [28:29]
Marty Solomon
Well, you put that brilliant qualifier on there. I'm not sure if I should say anything, but I'm just intrigued by the vanishing of love and hate and jealousy, or whatever you want to call it. There's an ex. Like everything else in this thing is a pair.
- [28:45]
Brent Billings
Yes.
- [28:46]
Marty Solomon
Like you have righteous, wicked, good, bad, clean, unclean, sacrifices, and not good and sinful, like just pair, pair, pair, pair, pair. And then you have love, hate and jealousy all vanished. It's like that little flame out where you have that extra little burst of fire right before the whole thing goes out.
- [29:03]
Brent Billings
I wonder if there's motivation behind that. Although I will point out in verse 2, there is technically another one of those right at the beginning. There's one fate for the Righteous and the wicked, and then it only says for the good, and then it moves on and says, for the clean and unclean.
- [29:25]
Marty Solomon
Oh, look at that. Yeah, there is a footnote there. Shoot.
- [29:30]
Brent Billings
Yes. And I mean, if we recall, that was also your very first question for verse one of like, isn't this kind of lopsided? We're just talking about the righteous and the wise. And so I wonder if we are beginning to see more of this asymmetry appearing here. And again, that kind of maybe matching or being part of why we're seeing a more intimate look at what Qohelet is really driving at and where this journey is going to take us, because we are coming in for a landing. On the other hand, I don't know what including good but not evil in this list means. Looking at that, I can't really place like, oh, what is Qohelet trying to say with that? So, from what I remember, I think alter has a note on that, which I don't want to get lost in the weeds here, but it made me think that this is probably just potentially at least a scribal thing. Is there some meaning behind it? Possibly. And, yeah, it's a little bit. It makes me want to look deeper into it. But there is no end to looking deeper into these matters. So I think we could bear it in mind. Maybe that will give us a flash of insight later in this chapter.
- [30:47]
Marty Solomon
The net has an extensive footnote on it, and I was kind of scanning through it, and it's making some interesting arguments, probably laying out both sides, both options, or multiple options. But the beginning of the footnote points out that the Masoretic text reads the good, but the Greek versions all have the good and the bad.
- [31:06]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes.
- [31:08]
Marty Solomon
So I don't know if it's just like this motivation to have the dichotomy like I was gunning for in that first verse. But, yeah, anyway, we'll let people do their own investigation on that, but. Interesting little thing to pull out there.
- [31:22]
Brent Billings
The other thing I was gonna say, though, is that in the following verse, we have, this is the evil, which would be the missing word in the above. So is maybe. Maybe that is where the implication lands, that we have the evil, the destruction of all this. Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of ways to work through that. It doesn't immediately seem to be a fertile ground to dig in. Maybe it's a cute little internal flourish of being like, huh? Where's the evil that's missing from that? And then in the Next verse, he says, ah, Quell, it says, this is the evil right here. Everything dies. It's everywhere. It's in everything. Who can say? But either way, we have more texture. Brent, why don't you take it away?
- [32:10]
Marty Solomon
Go eat your food with gladness and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Always be clothed in white and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love. All the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun. All your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life, and in your toil some labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might. For in the realm of the dead, where you are going there is neither working, nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom.
- [32:46]
Brent Billings
Wow.
- [32:47]
Marty Solomon
Really uplifting.
- [32:48]
Brent Billings
I mean, yeah, the first part of that, you know, until you get to the very final verse, it's kind of pumping us up. It's. It's like just, you know, live life to the fullest. Right. There's a couple little things I want to jump in on. The first one being something that for the very theologically minded, might have sent their antennas up. God has already approved your works. What can this mean? God is fine with everything we do. What isn't there? Free will. There does seem to be a thread of determinism again, going from that beginning of. Are all our deeds just in the hand of God? Even our own love and hate? Is this all just set by God, what Qohelet is driving at? I don't think so, but I want to push in and hone in on the Hebrew, because it will not resolve anything. It will actually make it even harder.
- [33:45]
Marty Solomon
Of course.
- [33:46]
Brent Billings
Yeah, exactly. If you thought Kohele was here to make your life easier, good luck. The word there is ratzah, which means to be delighted by. To be pleased by. Wow, what? Now, here's where I think if we understand this and kind of filter out our own Western inclinations, this might make a little bit more sense. Eat your bread and happiness. Drink your wine with a cheerful heart. For God has already been delighted by your works. And I think this is what Qohelet's saying. Not. Not every single thing that you do is something that God's like, yep, thumbs up. Glad you did that. Glad you said this that way. But simply that what God has put you in the world to do, the work that God has you doing here in the world, that again, we know that God's ways are higher than ours. We don't Understand everything. And we even know that God, as Yosef said, you know, the biblical figure that perhaps looms largest over this text, with maybe one exception that we'll talk about in a future episode. What does he say to his brothers? What you intended for evil, God used for good. In that sense, certainly we can understand that what we are here to do on earth, even if it doesn't quite make sense to our limited perspective, God delights in it. God is pleased with it. God said, yep, I want them there doing that. That's why you're here. And. And who knows what divine heavenly calculus or understanding of a time for this and a time for that, whether that justifies us or condemns us, we don't get to know any of that. What we do know is God gave me this bread, God gave me this wine, and I'm going to enjoy it knowing that God's allowed all this. And I think that there is something challengingly liberating about that and trying not to take this in a way that Kohelet would not mean. I think that that is something that we should hold on to and wrestle with. As she says in another passage, hold onto this without letting go of the other things. It's not just, yeah, do whatever you want, determinism, it doesn't matter what you do. It's all in the hand of God. We should hold on to all the other wisdom we've gathered this whole time. But also adding this new layer into Qohelet's constant refrain of enjoyment and being present. And in one sense we could say not overthinking this, even though we could say the whole book is about overthinking things. God wants us to be here, otherwise why would we be here? So enjoy what God gave you. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Enjoy the life with your wife, whom you love all the days of your life. That, remember, is just mere breath. And whatever your hand finds to do, whatever work it is that God delights in that has put you on this earth, just do it. Do it the best you can. However you understand. That doesn't mean that we can't. We love at, not just at Bama, but at impact as a whole. We love to talk about sacred vocation and seeing the potential for kingdom in anything we put our hands to. So there's always a possibility to talk about that, to improve that. But that doesn't mean that we should get lost in that. Again, our God is the God who says party. You know, rest, enjoy the goodness of creation.
- [37:22]
Marty Solomon
That word approved or accepted, as far as God has already approved or accepted what you do, do you know what the first mention of that word is?
- [37:31]
Brent Billings
Avratza. Ooh. I'm gonna guess it's probably early in Genesis.
- [37:37]
Marty Solomon
Not that early.
- [37:38]
Brent Billings
Not that. Okay, okay, okay. I must be thinking of the wrong word then.
- [37:41]
Marty Solomon
Oh, it's Genesis 33. It's Jacob meeting Esau, And Esau's like, what's all this stuff? And he's like, to find favor in your eyes. And Esau's like, I already have everything, you know?
- [37:56]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Marty Solomon
Keep. Keep this stuff for yourself. And then Jacob says to see your face is like seeing the face of God now that you have received me favorably or accepted me or approved me.
- [38:10]
Brent Billings
Yeah, I love it. Yes, yes. To look upon favorably. Wonderful.
- [38:18]
Marty Solomon
So what is God doing in the same way that Esau has done? Very interesting.
- [38:26]
Brent Billings
Yeah. Yeah. Some food for thought. Enjoy this, listener. Run after it if you wish, but yeah. God. And again, just to sprinkle this little bit of sugar on top, it's not just approved, like some bureaucratic stamp, like, yep. They're licensed to do all the stuff they're going to do. It's like, God delights that you're here, what you're doing in the world. God's like, yep, yep. I'm glad you're here. Enjoy your bread. It's going to taste good if you can be present enough to enjoy it. So do that. But there's a couple. You know, some of this is language we've heard a billion times before in this book, but then there's a couple very specific images that at least stuck out to me. What about you, Brent? Do you know what images I'm talking about here?
- [39:18]
Marty Solomon
I mean, clothed in white. Feels like there's something there, maybe. I was also intrigued by the end where it was just a very long list, neither working nor planning, nor knowledge, nor wisdom.
- [39:32]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes.
- [39:33]
Marty Solomon
Feels like there's some extra emphasis going on there.
- [39:36]
Brent Billings
Yeah. And. Oh, man. Yeah. To speak on that last part a little bit. Yeah. Like, leading up to, like. It does feel like a long list. And in fact, we'll see. I feel like that tends to happen in these third episode or third chapters. You know, we have a lot of lists in chapter three or these kind of extended things. And in fact, we'll have one of the more famous kind of extended metaphors in all of Ecclesiastes here later in this chapter. So. Yeah, I think that is stylistically intentional. And I can't speak to every single thing. There are some A lot of these words come up. A lot. You know, we have the first one is ma', ase, root word of which is the work, the doing. You know, it's a creation word going all the way back to Genesis 1. Then after that we have cheshbon, which is the word for to scheme or to find an explanation. That was used just a couple chapters ago, I think it was in chapter seven. And after that we have Da', at, which again, another word that's like, oh, that's pretty core to this book. But then, you know, rising to the crescendo of even wisdom, even Qohelet's most treasured thing, wisdom, even that is not going to be in shale. There's not going to be any more wisdom there. Like you said, kind of a big gut punch seeming to be a big let down there at the end. Even though the beginning of that verse is whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, because eventually it won't be there. Which is such a again for us Westerners who are like, well, if the bottom line is that I'm going to lose everything, why try at all? Why not just give up from the beginning? And I think again, we can see here, this is not, this is not our thought process here. This is, hey, whatever work you find yourself doing, do it as much as you can. Not in the sense of your job work, but whatever is the work of your life, the vocation, the station in life to which you feel called, just give your heart to it, because that's not gonna be forever. And I love that. Even though there is that kind of bitter note at the end, I still think that there's kind of sweet and beautiful there. But jumping back to the other image you pointed out, which is what I was getting at, what's this about white clothes? And the other side of that image, we're looking at verse 8 here. See that your clothes are white all the time and there is no lack of oil on your head. Now on a pashat level, this is kind of of a piece with everything else here. You know, enjoy your bread, enjoy your wine, enjoy your wife or your partner. Just enjoy what God has rewarded you with. And you know, having white or I guess, you know, I don't know if the specific color of, you know, having white clothes, if that was like difficult to get, but probably more, more realistically is talking about having clean clothes. You know, like just, you know, put on clean clothes, you know, take a shower, freshen up, put some oil on your head, condition your Hair, you know, get your skincare routine on. Like, just let yourself glow and enjoy the body God put you in. Just don't get in this kind of rut of despair, which having gone through cancer treatment, that's one of the big things they tell you. They say, don't stop taking showers, don't stop brushing your teeth. You'll feel real bad when you're going through this. Don't stop doing those nice little things that make you feel human. You gotta keep doing that, otherwise you'll give up pretty quick. Quick. And I think that that is at least on the peshat level. Like this is what Quelad is saying. Surface level, you know. Yeah. Enjoy the nice things even, you know, just the simple pleasures of having a clean pair of clothes and anointing on your head. But if we think about this in terms of, you know, imagery and maybe some remazim. Where have we heard this before? Does anything jump out to you with white clothes, Brent?
- [43:44]
Marty Solomon
Well, the first mention of this word for white, which is Lavan, is Genesis 30. So I'm looking at Jacob again.
- [43:51]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes. And I mean that lavan is not a very positive image to point at.
- [43:58]
Marty Solomon
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:00]
Brent Billings
And actually I might be doing my next. I'm seriously considering the story of Yaakov as my next series. So I will definitely be diving into lavan then. So I'm not going to touch that now.
- [44:14]
Marty Solomon
Okay, okay, but.
- [44:15]
Brent Billings
But I will say I don't think that's what's being talked about here. Even though there might be something. I wouldn't put it past Qohelet to have a multi layered remez. What jumps to my head and it's. I'm not sure actually if it's exactly the same linguistically, but is the image in the Book of Daniel, Daniel, chapter seven. The ancient of days coming clothed in white. What's interesting to me about this is that, you know, again, we have to remember this is Qohelet is written in an exilic context, as is the book of Daniel. And specifically when the ancient of days shows up and is clothed in white. This is right after Daniel has a vision of the four beasts representing these four great empires. And the ancient of days shows up to judge these empires, to bring them low and conquer them them. And if you're in an exilic context, you're in exile and you're remembering this verse in Daniel where God shows up wearing white clothes, ready to judge the nations. What does that mean for you as someone in exile?
- [45:23]
Marty Solomon
You're getting ready to get out of there. You're going to be free.
- [45:27]
Brent Billings
Yeah, you're going to be free. You're going to get to go home or move on to something else. You have a future now. And when we also think about how the image of oil on the head, which can, you know, it's. Can just be a luxury, a nice thing, you know, condition your hair. Oil on the head can also be a symbol of what, Brent?
- [45:45]
Marty Solomon
Anointing for a special role of some kind.
- [45:48]
Brent Billings
Exactly. Which, if we remember just a few chapters ago, chapter seven, it's better to have a good name than oil on the head. Precious oil. That anointing, it's like that, again, was an image of the future, of being called to something great. So Qohelet, again, is saying, like, this celebratory lifestyle, this being present and enjoying what God has, not just always being afraid and be like, oh, we gotta save. Oh, we can't open this bottle of wine. We gotta save it. That there's gonna be a more important thing. What about when our daughter gets married? And it's like, hey, you know what? Just, you know, we have a reason to celebrate now. Let's celebrate. And it's not just that, but behind that, it's celebrating in the way that Qohelet's talking about. And I think in the way God calls us through Shabbat to celebrate is not just about pure enjoyment. There is that level of it. But more than that, it's about being ready to step into the new world that God is bringing. What if God comes back tomorrow? Are you ready to put on those clothes? Are you ready for that anointing if God changes the world overnight? And that is what I think Qohelet is calling us to. You can't get all of this very heavy stuff Qohelet is saying at the same time, like, you can't let this drag you down. It's a reality check, and we need to live in reality. But that's why the celebration part is important, because you should celebrate in such a way as that you are ready for the world that God is bringing. Which, if we remember back to the creation story, that's what Shabbat is. That's living in the goodness of creation, the part that is untouched by the evil and the destruction that has piled up for generations behind us. It is remembering, oh, you know, the sun still rises and it's warm and there's a nice breeze and there's delicious food that comes up from the ground miraculously because that's how God made the world. And we're living in that goodness of creation and choosing to not look at the other things, the work that is left to do tomorrow. Today we are just looking at the world that God made that is still here, that is still attainable and able to be sensed and perceived and felt and sensed and experienced. And this is where there is a radical and redemptive element in that that allows us to transcend the exile or things that are like exile in our lives. And this is what Qohelet's calling us to do. That is my contention. There is a life beyond exile. Can you reach for that even now?
- [48:26]
Marty Solomon
Are your lamps filled? Are your wicks trimmed? Are you ready?
- [48:30]
Brent Billings
That's. Yes, exactly. Oh, great. Pull, Brett. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, now let's go to the next part. You were talking about lists before. We're about to get another one, and it's going to be so poignant, I probably won't even have anything to say. But we'll see what comes out. Why don't you keep reading?
- [48:48]
Marty Solomon
I have seen something else under the sun. The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learning. But time and chance happen to them all. Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come as fish are caught in a cruel net or birds are taken in a snare. So people are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.
- [49:17]
Brent Billings
And again, just a reminder, you know, if we're talking about being in exile, the evil time has kind of already come. And obviously, you know, you're living in exile. Things could get worse. You could go from being, you know, the Israelites living kind of a regular life in Egypt. All of a sudden, being exterminated can get worse. Maybe Kohelet is talking about that possibility. And also, one quick note. I want to say, if you're someone out there who has been maybe not quite liking the distinction I make when the biblical text uses the word for evil and saying it doesn't always mean evil. Just to give a little note here, when it describes the net, yours said cruel, Brent. Mine here says a treacherous net. The word there in Hebrew is literally an evil net. And I think we can all agree that nets do not make moral decisions and therefore cannot have a moral quality to them. So again, destructive. Destructive. A net that just, oh, it snatches you up and you're just a fish swimming along, minding your own business. Bad things can come. And, yeah, the race doesn't go to the swift. The battle doesn't go to the strong. Like it does not. Time and chance. You know, the bad things can just happen. So all the more reason to not try and, you know, to not get stuck in overthinking. You know, the things that God gives us that are good or the things that God has placed in front of us, it can all be gone in an instant. And at that point, we'll be dead, and we won't be thinking, hey, was that fair? Oh, I should have won that race. Someone tripped me. We won't be thinking about that anymore. We'll just be somewhere else, and our priorities will be impossibly different. Yeah. Do you have anything to say on this, Brent?
- [51:15]
Marty Solomon
I'm looking at the net's version of the end of this. The evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them is the niv. The net goes with an unfortunate time that falls upon them suddenly. And I just wonder, like, how. How immediate the rendering should be. Like, suddenly just sounds so much more like, boom. One moment it was fine, the next moment. Evil times.
- [51:41]
Brent Billings
Yeah.
- [51:41]
Marty Solomon
I think it can vary, but for sure, I just think of some of the biggest moments of history have been very sudden, but then other moments are like just kind of this slow building until it boils over kind of thing.
- [51:55]
Brent Billings
And. Yeah, and that word for time, it. It's very flexible. It can be talking about a whole season, which even, like you said, like, with kind of sudden, you know, things just kind of cranking up slowly, and all of a sudden you're like, what the heck? It's been. This has been nuts. Which I feel like, you know, we kind of have some good examples of that in recent history. That's a bit how the pandemic felt, where it was just like, you know, okay, it's bad. Is it? Like, how bad is this A new black plague? Are we all going to die? Or no. And yes. No. Yes. And it just kind of shimmies its way until all of a sudden, we're all just like, oh, this is miserable. Just like, how long is it? Oh, my gosh, it's been a year. Oh, it's been five years. What the heck? And then again, in recent history, we have also had wars are on, then they're off again. And what could be a better example of an evil time falling on you than a bomb being dropped on you? That is the ultimate in an unforeseen, destructive turn to your life. And so I think this kind of encompasses all of those things. Some fish are caught in nets and don't realize it for a minute. And if we go back to the image that's being used of the race going to the swift, if you're running a race and you're faster, you're out ahead of anyone, but then something happens, your ankle twists or trip, it could be over in a blink, in an instant. The same with battle not being to the warriors, the tide can turn just because, I don't know, maybe everyone, they had a heavy dinner and they were just all kind of sluggish the next day. These are things that we can that seem to primarily use the image of it being very sudden. But then on the latter half, we talk about food being to the wise. You can know wise people that they have a lot of wisdom, but somehow they're. They're poor, they don't have enough to eat. Like, how is that possible? This person knows so much. Or this person is a brilliant, gifted person. How do they not, you know, how are they not rich? Like someone else got rich off of their brilliance. Oh, maybe there's another Laban Jacob reference there.
- [54:09]
Marty Solomon
But thank you, thank you for furthering my argument.
- [54:13]
Brent Billings
Yep, yep, yep. And yeah, just like we are all subject to something bad coming out of the blue. And I think it kind of encompasses both those modes of immediacy, but also it can just be this droning plateau that you're always just like, yep, no, those seeds should sprout sometime. Like, gosh, I did everything right. What's going on? Yeah, but yeah, definitely. I think the overall tone, even though it encompasses a more slow building disaster, it definitely seems like what Qohelet wants us to feel is the suddenness of it. And I think that also reflects what she was saying back in verse 10 of whatever you find your hand to do, do it with all your might. There's a very pumping us up and go, go, go, go, go. Not in the sense of work as hard as you can and never take a break, hustle 247 sort of stuff, but in terms of. Of there's an urgency to all this, which I think is what makes this particular verse of the race not so swift. The battle not to the strong, that has a rhythm and a beat and it's kind of driving, just like you were talking about. There's all these lists. There's no more doing things. There's no planning, knowledge, wisdom, yada, yada, yada, boom, boom, boom. And I think that is giving us a sense of urgency when we look at. At all these things. But I think all of that happens to kind of reflect the continuous nature of all this stuff. It's life happening every single second, every single day. And that is going to be kind of flipped inside out with this final chunk of text. And that is going to kind of put us in a more reflective point of view and kind of, by contrast, slow us way, way down. And unless you have another thought, let's just take this to the end.
- [56:11]
Marty Solomon
To the end we go. I also saw under the sun this example of wisdom that greatly impressed me. There was once a small city with only a few people in it, and a powerful king came against it, surrounded it, and built huge siege works against it. Now there lived in that city a man, poor, poor but wise. And he saved the city by his wisdom. But nobody remembered that poor man. So I said, wisdom is better than strength. But the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are no longer heeded. The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war. But one sinner destroys much good.
- [56:59]
Brent Billings
How interesting. So what is Qohelet talking about here? Because this seems a small city with.
- [57:08]
Marty Solomon
Only a few people in it. A powerful king, a poor man, but wise. Sounds very specific.
- [57:18]
Brent Billings
Very specific. Our Ramez sirens are probably ringing now. I have only ever been able to find one example that really captures all the details we're given, and that is in 2 Samuel, chapter 20. Why don't you go ahead and read that for us before we press in on the other things being said here.
- [57:44]
Marty Solomon
Sheba passed through all the tribes of Israel to Avel and Beth Maacah, and through the entire region of the Bikrites, who gathered together and followed Hamilton him. All the troops with Joab came and besieged Sheba in Avel. Beth Maacah, they built a siege ramp up to the city, and it stood against the outer fortifications. While they were battering the wall to bring it down, a wise woman called from the city, Listen, listen. Tell Joab to come here so I can speak to him. He went toward her, and she asked, are you Joab? I am, he answered. She said, listen to what your servant has to say. I'm listening, he said. She continued, long ago they used to say, get your answer at Avel. And that settled it. We are the peaceful and faithful in Israel. You are trying to destroy a city that is a mother in Israel. Why do you want to swallow up the Lord's inheritance? Far be it from me, Joab replied, far be it from me. To swallow up or destroy, that is not the case. A man named Sheba, son of Bikri, from the hill country of Ephraim, has lifted up his hand against the king, against David. Hand over this one man, and I'll withdraw from the city. The woman said to Joab, his head will be thrown to you from the wall. Then the woman went to all the people with her wise advice, and they cut off the head of Sheba, son of Bikri, and threw it to Joab. So he sounded the trumpet, and his men dispersed from the city, each returning to his home, and Joab went back to the king in Jerusalem.
- [59:21]
Brent Billings
Now, that sounds quite a bit like the story Qohelet just told us, doesn't it?
- [59:26]
Marty Solomon
Sure does.
- [59:27]
Brent Billings
We have a great and powerful army descending on a very small city relative to the size of this army. And we kind of have an answer to what I think was my first question listening to this story without the context, which is, you know, why has this. This king building up all these siege works if it's just a tiny, poor town? Isn't that overkill? But here we have our answer. There's this man, Sheba, who is a. Well, I don't want to go into all the stuff, but basically, Sheba was trying to start a revolt against David. And so Joab is chasing him down. He is hiding in this little city. They don't know what he's been up to. He's just another stranger in their midst. We can imagine that they're doing exactly what the Torah asks of them, take care of the stranger. And he's in there. And they're none the wiser. And he surrounds them, is threatening to attack the town with these siege works. And, you know, this wise woman has a great idea, hey, why don't we talk to them and figure out what the heck is going on? And they end up finding a very sensible solution. Right?
- [60:37]
Marty Solomon
I mean, sensible is one way to refer to a band.
- [60:41]
Brent Billings
Yes, yes. Sensible in comparison to fighting a battle against the king's army and how many people will die with that. So, yeah, what do we make of this? And why is Qohelet invoking this story and this image? And what new questions does this bring up?
- [61:02]
Marty Solomon
Well, I think there is one point for your argument that Kohelet is a woman, because the. The referent in this story is a woman, but Qohelet labels the Wise One as a man. So I think that adds an element to you. But that's kind of beside the point. I'm struck by the characterization of the city. Long ago, they Used to say, get your answer at Avel. And that settled it. We are the peaceful and faithful in Israel. You are trying to destroy a city that is a mother in Israel, or, like a caretaker or something like that. Why do you want to swallow up the Lord's inheritance, which is like, oh, yeah. I mean, that sounds like it even elevates it more. And so are we taking that as, like, wisdom is the actual thing there?
- [61:53]
Brent Billings
Yeah, it's a really great question. And honestly, I am convinced that there is a lot more going on in this story. It's also interesting because there is another story of Joab engaging with a wise woman, the wise woman of Tekoa. Is there a connection there? I don't know. Then there's another level. The name of the city is Avel, which sounds very close to Havel, which is the refrain of empty or mere breath. Is there, like, there's so much here that makes me, for one, absolutely convinced that this is the Ramez that Qohelet intends. And like you said, this backs up the argument, as you were saying a moment ago, of Qohelet being a woman, because here, almost as if to underline the point about this person being forgotten, she misgenders them. And again, we can see a reflection there in her, using this image of the masculine sovereign of Solomon, even though she herself is a woman. I think there's a lot of kind of nodding and winking going on there. And this is, again, a perfect picture, right? A whole army is thwarted by a wise person. This displays the power of wisdom. Again, this whole book is about her pursuit of wisdom. Like, this is her fascination. This is her life, and she is really committed. She's not just. This isn't just like. This is her PhD thesis. No one's compelling her to search these things out. She is so in love with and enthralled by and fascinated by wisdom that she wants to know for herself, is there substance here? Am I in love with a ghost? Is this all just mere breath? And she is showing here like, no, this is like, I've seen wisdom turn aside the king's army. Like, this is what wisdom can do. Yet, in the very same image, even though we have this account in 2 Samuel, it doesn't tell us the name of this wise woman, right? And this wise woman alludes to a history, to a story, to, like, a reputation, right? What we were talking about in chapter seven of a Good Name, the reputation of this town, Avel, which I looked it up, and Avel means a meadow. So maybe there's some image there of lushness. I mean, we also might have another shepherding image to go with the parallel, to have El Havilim, mere breath and the shepherding of the wind, that pastoral image. So maybe there's even more there. But she tells us that there is this to us. I mean, as far as I know, I mean, I don't have all of Tanakh memorized. Maybe there's some explanation for this. But there's this whole history to this town that she appeals to, and we don't know what that history is. That itself is lost. The name of this woman is lost. But what she did over turning aside an entire army like that is the power of wisdom set alongside how time has eroded the name. And another level is that she's a poor woman. She might be respected in her town. It seems like no one argued with her. But Qohelet leverages the fact that her name is forgotten. She isn't someone who is widely respected. And we can even see this in how Joab approaches. He just starts getting ready to attack the city. He doesn't come in and say, hey, we're looking for this specific guy, bring him out. He just comes up and starts attacking. Even though this city has, or at least had a reputation of being a place of wisdom, a place where you could come and reason and get an answer. And this speaks to the fact that it is easy for even a powerful, well earned reputation can just go away. And I feel like that last line, one sinner destroys much good is the other side, right? One guy, one rebel in their midst who tried to start a revolt. He almost destroyed a whole city because he hid there and probably was not very honest with the people there about why he was running or any of that. That. So we have intention here, again, like the power of wisdom, but also how fragile these things are and how easy it is for this city, which based on the woman's words, was probably, like she said, this is a place of wisdom and of people who love peace. That was almost gone. Like that's how fragile the things we are trying to build. Going back to the very first verse, right? The righteous people and the wise people. That was this town, a town of righteous and wise people, based on what we're given in two Samuel. And it was almost wiped off the map because of one guy. What better image? And I think we can see in retrospect that the whole chapter is kind of structurally building up to this image of just how powerful wisdom is, yet how fragile its fruit is and how Fragile. The tree that bears it is. And that is the tension that we've been wrestling with here of like, give your love and your passion to everything God puts before you. But don't have any illusions that just because you're doing the thing that God's put you here to do, that doesn't give you the Mario star where now you can just walk through walls and bullets bounce off of you. That doesn't come with walking God's path. That doesn't come with being on the right track and living with wisdom. It is still all very fragile. Time and chance overtake everything, and evil time can just crash into you, and it doesn't have anything to do with you sinning, or it could be someone else's sin who just happened to be next to you. All of these things are possible. And that doesn't erase how powerful wisdom is. That doesn't erase how important righteousness is. But if we're going to be practitioners of righteousness and live with wisdom, them, we have to understand realistically, that doesn't mean that our lives are going to be untouched by tragedy. What a brilliant new tension. What's this stirring up for you, Brent?
- [68:30]
Marty Solomon
I'm just looking at these two stories and comparing them a little bit more, and Qohelet says it was a small city. And I was looking at this image of it being a mother. And initially I was just thinking about the general sense of. Of mother being like a creator and a nurturer and a caretaker and whatever. But then I remembered the idea of like, daughter cities, like Daughters of Jerusalem, or like the smaller cities on the outside of Jerusalem. So is this actually a larger city that has other daughter cities around it, and it's not actually a small city, but maybe Qohelet is saying, like, even a city that seems important is actually just a small city. Yeah, I don't know.
- [69:14]
Brent Billings
This is a great question.
- [69:16]
Marty Solomon
And you said tension. Like there are multiple tensions in the. I think there's enough details, like you said, very clear that this is the Ramez going on here, but just certain details that have been flipped that are intriguing and add to some of that tension.
- [69:35]
Brent Billings
Yes. And again, this is where I've mentioned before, like, oh, there's an image here. It seems like it's a Ramez, but I can't find what it is. Like, this is one of. This is almost more maddening than that, in that the Ramez is in my book, absolutely certain. But even that Ramez, it's like, oh, there's so much. I know we're missing about this. There's so much there. And not even to speculate on whether Qohelet also is weaving the refrains of Havel Havilim and shepherding the wind. Are these even connections to this story? Is the Ent book? Because, I mean, that's where it's like if this, like, this story is so perfect for the point that's being made. And that's also where, as you say, Brent, like, you know, we can explain the gender difference quite easily. It fits in quite a witty wink. But yeah, was it a big city or a small city? What does she mean when she says a mother in Israel? Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm seeing here, just by doing a little bit more digging, that there is actually a lot of. This has got a really big Wikipedia page. There are a lot of archeological discoveries there. And so we have some sense of the size of it. And let's see, I'm not seeing anything. I would have to sit and actually read the whole thing to see if it is relatively large or small. And it also kind of has the. It's called Avel, but it's also given a larger name, Avel Bet Maaka, as you read, it was also known as. It's called by different. Oh, it's referenced in 2 Chronicles 16. Oh, my goodness, so much more we could dig into. And yeah, I would encourage everyone to do that. There may be even greater treasures waiting here for us.
- [71:32]
Marty Solomon
All right, well, I'll throw the link in the show notes and people can do some investigation.
- [71:36]
Brent Billings
Please do. Yes. And this is where, as this chapter exhorts us, don't hold back what you are given over to do. Do it with all your might. Dig in deeper, but to the larger point. And I think this is really crucial in this day and age in our own. Maybe not literal exile, but I feel like there are a lot of people out there there who feel to some extent exiled, or maybe the better word is alienated. And this situation, the precarity that hangs over all our lives, that is persistent and in its persistence, very demoralizing. And I think being given this pep talk, being reminded that wisdom is powerful and whatever that is for you, whatever thing God has put in your heart, whether it's teaching, whether it's hospitality, whether it's just being good at loving your neighbor, like all these things, they have the power to create massive change, not just for you, but the people around you. You know, this one woman's wisdom saved an entire city. Can you even imagine that? Like that's if only. And yet, on the other side, sin. And to use the other image she brings out of the. What was it? The shouting of a ruler among fools. That is, you know, we can look around the world and perhaps see that image of a ruler shouting among fools. But the contrast to that of wisdom, the words of the wise heard in calm, that there is power in that, even though it is fragile, even though sin can introduce unimaginable chaos and can break really good things, whether that's an institution or a relationship or even a nation, that. That is something that we all have to bear in mind. A bomb could drop on our heads at any moment. Who can say? But that doesn't make wisdom not worth pursuing. That doesn't make whatever sacred calling God has placed on your life, even if it seems insignificant, even if it seems like something that's being ignored, like the wisdom of the poor man that Qohelet references here. Yeah, there are a lot of people that won't listen. There are many who will just never listen. That doesn't make the poor man's wisdom impotent. That wisdom is better than strength. And whatever the wisdom that God has placed in your heart, don't belittle it just because the world belittles it. And remember that it is a fragile, sacred thing. So take care of it. May God bless you with the ability to, as Qohelet says, eat your bread in happiness, drink your wine with a joyful heart. God is delighting in your works. And perhaps the spirit's convicting you of some things, too. But that doesn't mean that God's done with you or that God's delight is out of reach. All of this is within reach. Remember, that's Qohelet's lens. What can we actually get materially, practically, in reality, in our life? That kind of joy is not beyond us. That kind of wisdom can be within our grasp. And though we may have obstacles that our own finite lives don't see the end of, that doesn't make any of this pointless. Far from it.
- [75:24]
Marty Solomon
May we grasp it indeed.
- [75:26]
Brent Billings
Amen.
- [75:26]
Marty Solomon
All right, you can find more details about the show@baymonticello ship.com if you want to do some investigation, we'll have the link to that Wikipedia page for the City. I'm. The more I think about that story, the more I'm intrigued by this connection. It's. Yeah, my. My mind is turning quickly, so I feel like I'm not even completely here in the last part, the of episode. But whatever you can use the website to get in touch with us. You can check the news page for the latest things we have going on. You can support our work. Everything that we do is made possible by listeners like you who have joined us on this journey and support what we do. So thank you for that and thank you for joining us on the podcast today. We'll talk to you again soon. All right.
- [76:14]
Brent Billings
Nice.
- [76:15]
Marty Solomon
Boom, boom, boom.
- [76:17]
Brent Billings
Awesome. Have we heard back from Elle?